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Bristol Unpacked with Neil Maggs brings you fascinating and challenging conversations from characters of all stripes on big topics facing the city and beyond.
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Listen: Bristol Unpacked with the BBC’s Pete Simson on the WECA mayoral election, making politics interesting – and why snacks matter
Neil Maggs
Pete Simpson, how are you, sir?
Pete Simson
I'm very well. Thank you.
Neil Maggs
Well, thanks for agreeing to come on. We record this while Villa are playing PSG, that doesn't affect your evening?
Pete Simson
Well, I would be watching it if I wasn't chatting to you. So in the sense of, yeah, I'm doing something else, but I've got no skin in the game, as it were, unlike old Prince William…
Neil Maggs
You're a Spurs fan, aren't you?
Pete Simson
I'm afraid so.
Neil Maggs
One of the reasons, obviously, for getting you on, we are on the eve of the West of England mayoral elections. You are, dare I say, the leading political journalist in Bristol. Or is that me just being hyperbolic?
Pete Simson
I think so. Yeah. I'm one of them. I'm one of the political journalists in Bristol. I follow the local political scene. Yeah, have done for a while.
Neil Maggs
18 years. Is that right? In the BBC 18 years?
Pete Simson
Yeah. But in terms of, like, following Bristol politics closely, it's probably been about the last 10 years now.
Neil Maggs
OK – and I would say unorthodox, colourful, eccentric, but also highly professional. And that's enough about me! Let's talk about you and your journalistic career in politics, shall we? New job for you – from radio Bristol to editor of the leading political television program in the region, Politics West.
Pete Simson
They asked me to write a little like talk up for Points West on a Friday. We often record it on a Friday. It goes out on a Sunday. And I always put in the talk up ‘the region's leading political regional TV discussion show on at 10 o'clock on Sunday morning’. They never leave that bit in Neil! But it's a very different job. And television, as you well know, is a strange format in many ways. It's not quite as intimate as radio, but no less enjoyable. And obviously it's good when you've got elections coming on. And it's not just Bristol, which is interesting and spicy and subversive, but it's the other areas around which are very different. The political scene in Wiltshire and Gloucestershire and Somerset is very different…
Neil Maggs
Yeah. And you are a Somerset lad, aren’t you?
Pete Simson
So my mom's from Somerset. She grew up in Sandford, which is where they make very well known cider. Other ciders are available! It's funny that they say that, because we live in a capitalist society, isn't it? And then everyone's instantly going, Ah, Thatchers, yeah, yeah. But my mum says that Thatcher's wasn't even the biggest cider maker in the village when she was growing up, which is very interesting…
Neil Maggs
Are you an avid cider drinker?
Pete Simson
I wouldn't say avid, because you get to a certain age, don't you, and you think to yourself, is all of this drinking cider really doing me good in the long term? But I do enjoy a tipple…
Neil Maggs
I hate it. I've never liked it. I'll go back to cricket tour when I was about 15, and I was prised with cider and black – I just spewed up down the side of the van on a tour in Devon, and I just can't drink the stuff and never have done since. And everyone sort of presumes, you know, local Bristol boy, West Country, you should love cider. I don't at all. I've got cider-based PTSD or certain description…
Pete Simson
But it's not compulsory, is it? The beauty of capitalism!
Neil Maggs
And so with your role as a journalist, lots of people… and I think the Cable tries to be balanced, but probably has a slight political leanings. I think what's happened in the media landscape generally, we are entering this sort of world where you've got your talk radio, your GB News, your Novara Media, you've got this new sort of, I guess, a little bit like it's in the states of developing these pleura of media that has a particular political slant, a bit like newspapers. The BBC sort of remains that balanced thing in the middle – that’s becoming increasingly harder, would you say, to keep that and it must be a bit of a nightmare sometimes being an editor having to make sure you're traveling down that centre line…
Pete Simson
Yeah. I mean, it's not an exact science. And actually, it's very to be truly balanced. Our guests, the ones who sit on the sofa, are normally MPs from the region. And I do actually think it's right that, you know, MPs, the people that have voted to represent our communities in Parliament, do come on and be interviewed and share their opinions on stuff. But of course, as of the last general election, and some people will say, fantastic, obviously, others would say, tragically, there are far fewer Tories. For example, I think we've only got like six Conservative MPs in entire West of England region. So that's including Somerset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire. So it's really hard to be, you know, truly balanced. And obviously, the BBC has always been under the microscope, and rightly so, under scrutiny. I think the attacks on it are kind of getting more vociferous, ironically, from a lot of those outlets that do have a clear leaning, which is fine, to be honest, I don't mind that in many respects. I think it's probably more important than ever that the BBC tries to maintain its impartiality.
Neil Maggs
It’s a compliment if you're being attacked from both sides?
Pete Simson
Yeah. I mean, that's what everyone says, don't they – sometimes it just feels like no one likes you, but it's fine. The BBC should be held to a very high standard. It should be scrutinised in that way, and people should get annoyed by some of the voices they hear on the BBC. I think that's right. And I think it's healthy from a TV production perspective. You need a plethora of voices. Neil, you just need that for it to be interesting.
Neil Maggs
Arguably, suddenly, the WECA election has become a bit more interesting, hasn't it? I mean, you've had Aaron Banks making a late appearance for the Reform Party, who's obviously very well known for his role with Brexit and his relationship with Farage, who's not scared to give a strong opinion, which feels very un-Bristol in some ways. And then you have the unfortunate situation with the arrest by the outgoing West of England mayor, Dan Norris, for allegations of rape. It's suddenly, dare I say, become much more in the public consciousness now…
Pete Simson
Yes, I think so. It was very much in danger of being one of the most boring elections ever. But no, you're right about both of those points. I mean, Aaron Banks is a disrupter, isn't he? No doubt about that. I mean, he sits there and we, we've done our West of England mayoral debate. You can watch it now on iPlayer. But you know, he just sits there, sort of throwing in little grenades, doesn't he?
Neil Maggs
Would you say that's in such a direct, confrontational way that, from a media perspective, it's sort of gold dust?
Pete Simson
It is, yeah – a lot of it has to be challenged, though. You know, he says things like he's been listening to his mate, Donald Trump, hasn't he? He says, Oh, we're gonna build beautiful, big buildings. You can just hear Trump saying that, can't you, ‘beautiful big buildings’. And, ‘we're gonna audit the hell out of the other councils’. Yeah, West of England, obviously, is a weird partnership between Bristol, South Glos, and Bath and North East Somerset…
Neil Maggs
You can't even do that though, can you? I'm not sure that the mayor the power to audit other councils. I did see that, and I thought, hang on a minute. Does the West of England have the power to to go into the books and scrutinise the different unitary authorities?
Pete Simson
So the matter is, the way that this Combined Authority has been set up, and that's why there's like… I'm not gonna say no interest in it. That's not true, because I think people do know, you know who the outgoing mayor is, and I think there is a sense of some visibility there. It's more about what the job is and what it entails, and what the combined authority is and what it's for. Really, on most stuff, Neil, the WECA mayor, can't do it unless the other council leaders agree, like, constitutionally, that's the way it's been set up, and it's why you always had like, these mad meetings with like, Dan Norris there and Marvin Rees like, saying, all right, we're going to do this. No, I don't agree with that. Right? And they turn to the monitoring officer and they were like, so what's that? But, right? That's fallen, that's fallen, then has it. And you'd be thinking, right? So like, all these officers have gone off and, like, gone, like, put loads of hours into coming up with some policy about something. They wouldn't have had a meeting beforehand. Said, you all agree with this. They just turn up on the day in front of the public. And there wasn't much public to be honest, but I would go to these meetings every now and again, there'd be a smattering of other reporters, and they'd go through it, and at the end, like, if one didn't agree with it, Neil, it'd be like, right. Well, that's the end of that one. There’s just a complete stalemate.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, yeah. And they've sort of, there's been this game of chess going on, haven't they? One of the most memorable things that I remember seeing was a video of, Marvin Rees, then the Bristol mayor, kind of allowing Dan Norris to go in front of him. And then Dan Norris is allowing him to go in front. They do this little shuffle for about a minute to decide who's going to let who through the door. And you could just feel the disdain between them as they're kind of, you know, because there's no love lost…
Pete Simson
Well, they fundamentally disagreed on, you know, on one of the most… I think in general, if you've lived in Bristol for a long time, you'll know full well it suffers for a lack of transport infrastructure. Marvin Rees, unashamedly, you know, wanted to start work on a… let's call it an underground. In the end, who knew what really he was thinking – a mass transit system, a light rail with some underground section… that doesn't roll off the tongue. But Dan Norris wasn't interested. And he made that clear on Points West from the get go, didn't he?
Neil Maggs
That was that interview where he batted or attempted to bat him down and said, well, actually, no, I will decide as head of transport, yeah, whether we go ahead with this or not.
Pete Simson
But the question is, then, okay, so what you're going to do instead? And I guess that's a question for all the current candidates as well, because you go to other cities, that aren't massive, you know, like, go to Nottingham, yeah, and they've got a tram system there. They're working on a mass transit system in West Yorkshire for Leeds Bradford, they're starting work on it now. So it's not completely, like, wildly out of the question. So in a sense, like, you can sometimes sort of empathise a bit with Marvin Rees. Used to get very frustrated, didn't he? He'd be like, Oh, Bristol lacks ambition. Yeah, we're never going to get anywhere with all these doomsayers. But I think the fact of the matter is, the way the Combined Authority has been set up doesn't have North Somerset in it, which is weird. It's never had all of the council leaders and the mayor themselves, sort of like facing the same direction, backing each other up.
Neil Maggs
And this would have been the same when the previous West of England mayor, Tim Bowles, was in post as well. The accusation with him is not a lot really happened, and nobody kind of really knew who he was and what he did.
Pete Simson
Well, that's true as well. You go anywhere, and say, ‘you know who's Tim Bowles is?’ Not anywhere. If you went to his house, people would know who he was…
Neil Maggs
Someone called Tim that lives here. Yeah, who's that bloke in the garden?!
Pete Simson
To his credit, he managed to keep a lot of the political antagonism totally away from the public. He was a bit more of a chairman, in that sense, a technocrat, if you like. I think that's the thing with this job, which is why, if Aaron Banks does win for reform, it will be absolutely fascinating. See, you do have to be kind of diplomatic and bring the Councils with you. If you want to achieve everything.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, it's a really good point, because if you think about the certain decisions that were made as Bristol mayor, one of the reasons why some people got together to bring it to a referendum, and then that got voted out on a low turnout, but it got voted out by the Bristol public was because of too much power in the hands of one individual. In many ways, Banks has probably would have been more suited to that role, yeah, than he would for the West of England. As you say, you've got to build a consensus and get a collective decision to get things over the line.
Pete Simson
Think about how hard it is to do stuff, though Neil, in a transport sense, I mean, like, there's been an argument, hasn't there about like a bus lane on the A4 in between Bath and Bristol, and they've started work on that, but now they're like, oh no. People in the places that live along the A4, they're like, We don't want this. Traffic's already bad. It'll make it 10 times worse. Fine. Dan Norris came up with some plan to turn the old disused railway line into a new road – that doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. M32 park and ride. I mean, how long has he talked about a park and ride? Plans for that have kind of drifted off into the wilderness,
Neil Maggs
and you're right to compare to other cities, because you you know you mentioned, you know, smaller places, but you know, the obvious, you know, integrated transport places like, you know, Manchester, you know, it's just a million million miles above anything that Bristol's got, and we just don't seem to have made any progress.
Pete Simson
I think you could probably say for good or bad, the e-scooter hire scheme…
Neil Maggs
Yeah. Fair point. New train stations have opened or reopened, aren't they in certain places?
Pete Simson
Yeah. But again, Neil, that they've been in the pipeline for years. And, you know, I don't care if you're you're the Metro Mayor standing outside one of the new train stations that's been opened and gone. Look, this wasn't possible without the West of England Combined Authority. That's just complete nonsense. It was planned and most of it paid for way before WECA came along. And these things take a long time. They're slow. So I can understand why people say it's that old saying. Well, what have you done for me lately?
Neil Maggs
People a bit disillusioned. I think people disillusioned with politics generally and politicians, but I think people probably feel a bit jaded. I guess part of your job is making people become a bit more turned on to this stuff, to be interested. I'm not saying local politics is boring, but it doesn't come with the sort of cut and thrust of Westminster. And you have to make things interesting to people, don't you? And I think probably without blowing smoke to you too much… you are known for trying to be a bit more creative and a bit funny. You know, not many people have sat on an inflatable little toy crocodile in the middle of a flooded subway in Lawrence Hill. Have they doing a news report, a political news report? So you kind of have, you have to make this stuff interesting. How do you do that?
Pete Simson
Yeah. That was at the Lawrence Hill underpass, wasn't it? Yeah?
Neil Maggs
You're very aware of this stuff could just be really dry if you don't present it in a bit more an interesting way.
Pete Simson
Yes, and it's hard to do that with everything when you're like trying to explain the city, sustainable transport, settlement. You're like, how can I make this vaguely interesting? I mean, the fact is, mate, but you know, most people out there, even with a sort of a passing interest in politics, you know, there's a lot going on in the world, right? And they're living their lives, and you're kind of trying to, sort of, you know, push yourself into what is an incredibly busy and congested media landscape at the moment. And I think the news, a lot of the news, is pretty dreadful and depressing for a lot of people. So I think you have to treat everything with the… obviously, local councils do incredibly important things, and you know, they work with incredibly vulnerable people, and you can't take the piss out of everything, but you can take the piss out of some things. And sometimes it's not even taking the piss. It's just showing things in a different way. And I you know that inflatable jet ski at Lawrence Hill is probably a good example, because actually had been reported on loads of times, and it was a real nightmare for people. But the ironic thing about that is, like, a few days later, some contractors working on behalf of Bristol City Council turned up and started doing the work to try to get to the bottom of why it flooded all the time. Now it may have been a coincidence, but I do like to think that showing it up in that light, because it did, you know, people watched it on social media. That's how you get your views and your hits nowadays, isn't it?
Neil Maggs
But you drew attention, didn't you? You drew attention to something sometimes by doing it a little bit differently and in a bit more of an unorthodox way, it does probably embarrass and shame councils and organisations to act. I mean, that is, that's when you could say, you know, without being too pious about it, you could say, that's when journalism is playing its Yes, the strongest role, really.
Pete Simson
100%, and it's funny, because you can do all this work, you know, like holding these politicians to account, or arranging a debate with lots of different questions. A video, boom, that's the real journalism, right there.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, it's a funny one. But there is no reason why politics can be presented in a way that's interesting, I think, and it can be done in a way that's entertaining. I particularly used to enjoy your Election West podcast, and those that haven't listened to it, I don't know if it's still available on Sounds, which you did with Robin Markwell, yeah, but the main things are stuck out to me. You know, the political stuff, the way it was presented was quite comedic. I was very surprised that you were kind of allowed to do that, really, on the BBC to that level of you were creating your own jingles, and all this sort of stuff. But that was an example, actually, where I think you can present stuff in this different way, and you can sort of turn and tune people into it, because, you know, there's people in this city that are political junkies anyway, but you need to get, you know, you need to connect with people outside of that bubble. And I don't think Bristol's always been brilliant at that, if I'm honest.
Pete Simson
No, no, quite insular in a lot of ways, but I know what you're saying, Neil, that Election West was a lot of fun, but obviously it was a unique period of time because the Bristol City Council elections had been postponed, so they clashed with the West of England elections, and you had the Police and Crime Commissioner elections going on all at the same time. And we thought to ourselves, how can we present this without just overloading people with information? And I think, you know, that's the beauty. I think a lot of local, local coverage, there is room to experiment with stuff. I did enjoy doing that.
Neil Maggs
I feel sorry for the Local Democracy Reporters (LDRs). You mentioned sitting in West of England meetings, I presume you would be going to, you know, City Hall, sometimes listening to sort of three-hour debates, and then having to pick something out from that and present, choose what's relevant, then make that presentable and understood and interesting. That isn't easy to do.
Pete Simson
No, there's a skill and an art form to it. And the funny thing about that is, it's one of the things that used to annoy the hell out of the former Bristol Mayor Marvin Rees, because he'd be like, you know, why are you presenting this complicated issue in a two minute sound bite on the television? And you think to yourself, because no one would sit there and watch half an hour on whatever this, you know, incredibly dry… I'm not saying it's not important. Doesn't affect people. It does. But you know, the Radio Bristol Breakfast Show or the Points West evening bulletin is not that arena to do it, I'm afraid. So we either cover it in this way or not at all.
Neil Maggs
And yeah and yeah, I don't think it's ever the right place for a politician to dictate how journalists will write or broadcast what they do anyway. But that's increasingly becoming something, is increasingly becoming challenging. You mentioned, you know, Martin Rees. I've had him on this show, and I'm interested to ask you about tactics, you know, in terms of… when you're interviewing people, you know, trying to influence or change how you covered something which is part of the game that happens. You know, it's the exchanges in it, the gladiatorial arena, bit between politician and and journalist. But you also need to keep communications open. Because you might have to interview them in a couple of weeks’ time, so you hold them to account, but you don't burn a bridge. It's a very delicate balancing act, isn't it? What for you was most challenging when you were doing that?
Pete Simson
I mean, it's tough because in the end, that balancing act is, you're always going to annoy someone or you're gonna fall out with someone. But for me, it's a personal thing. Like I'd always, I like to think that I'd always treat everyone the same way. And I think, you know, often this is where the BBC kind of maybe gets off a bit lighter. We don't need to sensationalise stuff.
Neil Maggs
You've got an audience, haven't you that? Yeah, you've got an audience, and they want to talk to you. You know, there's been times when they've refused to speak to the Cable, or, I think, refused to speak to Bristol Post. That has never happened with the BBC because, you know, because you sort of can’t do that!
Pete Simson
No, people would often go, Ah, you're just, you're just client journalists. And you'd be like, well, maybe, but then, you know, this person is an elected politician. So in many respects, they have a right to have a platform. Although, come back to the pandemic where, you know, the mayor of Bristol had these press conferences, someone asked a question – one of the LDRs has asked a question that didn't go down very well, and they were banned, or ‘not banned’. It's just, just like having a birthday party, you're just not invited, right? I didn’t get involved in it, I just think because it had nothing to do with me, obviously, not that I wasn't showing solidarity. Don't agree with that sort of thing at all. But, you know, it's all of these decisions are for people who are like above my pay scale. And I think in the end, it was completely irrelevant, because there weren't any more press conferences anyway.
Neil Maggs
This also happens in football as well, doesn't it? I don't know if this is a maybe this isn't anything new, or it's just my perception. It feels to me as if there is a pushback at the media, you know, politically in particular, generally, a lot more than there probably was before. I don't know if you saw a change over the time you'd been there. I think the landscape has changed a bit where the pushback seems to be stronger than it ever was. Is that true? Was that just my perception?
Pete Simson
No, I think you probably make a good point. And the BBC have been immune to it in certain respects. I do think still, when it happens in this country, people write about it. And when it does happen at football clubs, I hear about it. I mean, just going back to sort of, you know, having to have a thick skin. I remember interviewing Russell Slade, who was the old Yeovil town manager, after they lost three nil to Milton Keynes. It was a pretty sorry performance, and I thought to myself, Well, I'm gonna have to ask some tough questions there. And before I even open my mouth, Russell Slade was on to me. He went, you're not going to be negative, are you, Pete? Could you have done any better? And you know, I was only like in my early 20s, and it's hard, mate, it is hard.
Neil Maggs
Is that a deliberate attempt to derail you? Is it a sort of tactical manoeuvre, or is it just an emotional response?
Pete Simson
I think, for you know, a lot of the top dogs you look at like, you know, Mr. Trump, it’s clearly a tactic. I think sometimes you have to remember it's weird being asked loads of questions about your job by people who know a bit about it, but they don't know everything. And I guess if you put yourself in the other person's shoes, right, imagine having, like, the shittest day at work ever, like, everything's gone wrong, it's been really stressful. And then just as you know, just as the day finishes, some little upstart comes up to you and goes, what did you make of your decisions there just after lunch, the meeting was a disaster, wasn't it? Got any thoughts on that? And shoved a microphone in your face…
Neil Maggs
Yeah. And sometimes, you know, it's a 21-year old asking questions to somebody with a lot of experience. That whole thing around, you know, playing the man, not the ball, kind of thing, where is asking the question, from a journalist perspective? It doesn't matter. It's just a question. But if you, as you just said, if you take it from the perspective of a football manager or a politician, you mentioned Mayor Marvin Rees, where you know, I've seen it when somebody you know, fresh out of you know journalism graduate school, asking him about, you know, what you're going to do about poverty and austerity kind of thing. And you could see he's like, what, what? How dare you ask, you know. And so I kind of get it as well, I think, but I didn't know whether you felt sort of tactically, it's become more difficult. I think for for journalists, you're also right, that not everyone's an expert, and I think seasoned and skilled politicians know that, that if you've been doing it as long as you have, you're over the detail a bit, but you will get people coming in that are asking questions, even the national media now asking questions, and you can sort of tell they don't really, really know what they're talking about. And a skilled politician like a Jacob Rees Mogg or a Michael Gove that, you know, who's obviously an ex journalist himself. They know the producer’s handed them three questions before they're interviewing them, and actually they're not over the detail like them, and you can feel that. ‘Let me ask you a question,’ and you start playing that game, you get sucked into a world of pain…
Pete Simson
100% – because your opinion as a journalist is completely and utterly irrelevant. And you know, politicians say, Well, no, it's not actually, because where are you coming from? Where are your prejudices? Where are your biases? Why are you asking that question? And the answer for me is: I'm asking that question because I'm a journalist and this is going to be played on a radio station or the television or written up for online, for people who may or may not have voted for you, but have an interest in how the city is run. It’s that simple.
Neil Maggs
Yes, yes. So the answer is, you gotta stick to your guns. Yeah, you get respect for that in the long run. Talking of sticking to your guns. You have had all of the candidates for the WECA election on the show recently, and you've done a little skit on each Haven't you? I'm going to go through the candidates, okay, just quickly so we have Helen Godwin, Labour, yeah, Steve Smith, Conservatives, Arron Banks, Reform, Oli Henman, Lib Dems, Mary Page, Greens. You have made a little film on each that people can watch. Can they watch that on the iPlayer?
Pete Simson
Go on the iPlayer. And there's a West of England debate special. Just search for Politics West, and it's at the top there. And the film is just an introduction to them.
Neil Maggs
So Helen Godwin, she's sort of emphasising her differences, interestingly, with Dan Norris, in terms of business background, ability to build bridges, she's about putting transport, putting public services, bus services back into public control via franchising. Smith. He's campaigning very much on this sort of pro motorist, anti liveable neighbourhood stuff. Banks, you know, he's a friend of Farage, businessman, Chair of Thornbury Cricket Club. He is arguably the most famous person to stand as a politician in this region for one of these elections. Mary Page, former Lib Dem. Interestingly, she led the anti Bristol mayoral campaign, if I’m correct, in the referendum. So she's standing. She's now standing for the Greens, yeah. And then Henman, no relation to the tennis player, BANES councillor for Walcot, pledging to be a candidate who brings people together. He's involved. He's actually involved in the Council’s Liveable Neighbourhood plans, and he agrees with Godwin on bus franchising. That's the sort of snapshot of who and what they are. Do you think Labour's candidate Helen Godwin will be affected by the situation? Well, two situation, the situation with how Dan Norris's leadership has been seen and perceived, and also, obviously, with the recent news of him being arrested, do you think that's going to affect people coming out and voting Labour?
Pete Simson
Just on the second one first. Because obviously, you know, we have to be very careful what we say, there's an investigation. But you know, I think that's a perfectly legitimate question. I think the answer is it can't help. Having said that. Helen Godwin has always tried to position herself as being very different to the outgoing West of England mayor, as being someone who is perhaps more conciliatory and more willing to bring people with her. Dan Norris wasn't really part of her campaign at all. In fact, quite the opposite.
Neil Maggs
Okay. So yeah, and you know, a different sort of personality type, and like you said, probably is she was backed by Marvin when she so it's almost like a different wing of the Labour Party anyway, so yeah, you could argue the flip to what I just said, that perhaps this could actually could favour her. How different I am. Yeah, I do politics differently.
Pete Simson
I mean, she's from the same party, so I think ideologically and just on that bus franchising, by the way, this gets sort of talked about and thrown about as an idea and acted upon. If you live in Manchester, where they are franchising buses – for people that don't know that means, like, the combined authority would kind of like take control of the bus routes in the region and would let operators run it, but under the West of England umbrella. So they set the routes, they set the timetable, and everything would be, you know, the same livery would be, all under the West of England Combined Authority umbrella, as it were, they're going through that process in Manchester.
Neil Maggs
She's quite close to Andy Burnham. I think she's actually worked with him directly on in previous campaigns in the past. It’s always the million dollar question, though, how many people have voted on local issues and national issues? Starmer is not very popular in the countryside at the moment, in the shires is he? His popularity is completely waned. You know, if you look at polls, whether that's going to be a factor for people coming out and vote for Labour…
Pete Simson
It's so hard to not get sucked into this. So it's a sort of opinion poll on the national government, because I've covered so many local elections, and I always find like the people who are going out to vote, like, you know, you get lower turnout in local elections, but what you get often is people who are going out to vote, they're like, more clued up on stuff. So I think, like just being a bit annoyed about the Labour government or the previous Conservative government, I think in the places where you know, Labour support isn't as solid. Obviously, it is in Bristol, sure, but you know, certainly in parts of South Gloucestershire, parts of Bath and North East Somerset, you know, Labour don't have a presence in large parts of both of those authorities. And you know the places that they do, they're going to rely on their support holding up. I mean, we go back to what you said at the start, Neil, I don't think there's going to be a massive turnout for this election. And when turnout is small, when you have a disruptor like Mr. Banks into the mix, strange things can happen, and it doesn't take many votes to swing it. We're into first past the post for the first time for this particular election. So it's it's incredibly hard to call to be honest. And if I were Helen Godwin, who, you know, probably at the start of the year, would have been the clear favourite. I'm not quite sure that that is the case now.
Neil Maggs
In a couple of recent polls, which I was quite surprised about, the Greens have come out on top. Tell me if I'm wrong but the Greens being a very sort of Bristol centric party, yeah, I wouldn't expect them to do brilliantly in the other areas.
Pete Simson
Don't forget, like Bristol is the lion's share of the electorate. And, you know, even, even at the last general election, they came, they came second, and they, obviously, they won Bristol Central, they came second in every other constituency. But you're right. They don't have a strong showing elsewhere, especially in South Gloucestershire. They do have some councillors in Bath and North East Somerset, and their support is growing there, as it has done in lots of other parts of the country.
Neil Maggs
Presumably Mary Page is pro West of England mayor – anti Bristol mayor, but pro West of England.
Pete Simson
Yes, she doesn't see any hypocrisy to her stance whatsoever.…
Neil Maggs
Have you put that question to her?
Pete Simson
Oh, yeah. 100% she says they're just, they're different jobs, they're different roles. And, you know, rather like what we were saying, actually, this isn't a role where, constitutionally, you can just go in there and start throwing your weight around and bigfooting your ideas onto the other councils, because it doesn't work like that. And also, like, the policy areas that you have power over are very limited, aren't they? We've focused on transport. There's a bit of planning, there's a bit of adult skills. But that's not a particularly politically controversial policy area, the adult skills budget.
Neil Maggs
So there are potentially big reforms underway with this English devolution bill that you know, particularly if Labour continues in power, they want more decision making, you know, budgetary powers, more autonomy in in regions. So sort of decentralisation of power – it could look different in five years time…
Pete Simson
And maybe Mary Page will be, you know, the most powerful person in the whole West of England by then. I think you just have to remember, though, like the way that the West of England has been set up is slightly strange. Yes, Labour do want more devolution, but the fact that it doesn't have North Somerset in it, the fact that you need the tacit approval for most things from the other council leaders means that you know, for now, your areas of influence are fairly limited.
Neil Maggs
Okay, let's talk about the ‘Bad Boy of Brexit’, Mr. Banks, famously photographed in a golden elevator with Donald Trump. Do you think he's going to have cut through? I mean, I'm seeing, anecdotally, a lot of people that I would say are either lapsed sort of working-class Labour voters, that maybe voted for Boris and for the Tories for the first time, being quite supercharged and quite excited by the fact that Banks is going to come in, you know, ride in on a horse and clean up this town and all of that.
Pete Simson
Yeah, riding a horse up Park Street! Yeah, we're going to open it all to all traffic at all times, including horses! No, I think that's very interesting you say that because Reform are doing very well in the polls. They're absolutely smashing it. In fact, I think one national poll the other last week put them ahead of Labour nationally. And obviously, there's a set of local elections taking place all around the country, and they are fielding candidates everywhere, such is the strength, if you like, the growing numbers of people who want to represent Reform, who are putting themselves forward for nomination, their membership is growing. I guess a question for Banks is, can he mobilise enough of those you know, as you as you describe them disillusioned working class, ex Labour, maybe ex Tory under Boris Johnson, voters to actually bother to take part in this democratic process next month? Yeah, that's the big question for him.
Neil Maggs
So will that galvanise others? You know, because I think Banks is going to, obviously polarise people, you either really like him or you don't. And I just wonder if what we might find is by him entering the arena, it could split the vote, actually, yeah, potentially in four ways. And you may get people – the Lib Dems – may benefit from this.
Pete Simson
Actually, Lib Dems might do. And don't forget, the Lib Dems are incredibly strong in in Bath and North East Somerset. I mean, there's a massive majority on the council there. I think for Banks, you know, his problem is going to be, there are large swathes of the electorate in Bristol who are completely turned off by his politics. He's gonna have to rely on support, probably from elsewhere.
Neil Maggs
So what, in terms of the numbers, then to I think the whole of the region is around 950,000 of which, what's the population in Bristol? 450,000?
Pete Simson
Yeah. Some of them are children, obviously…
Neil Maggs
But there is a you're right to say the numbers in Bristol, however, I think in South Bristol, they might do quite well.
Pete Simson
Yeah, absolutely, I wouldn't disagree with that. And their candidate in Bristol south in the general election, got a few thousand, didn't he, but still came third, behind the Green Party candidate.
Neil Maggs
But it is an area that you think they will look to target. And think people might be surprised. You know, there is a Bristol's in a bit of a bubble sometimes, isn't it, or the certain inner ring of Bristol, anyway, that there is a division of opinion, actually, and I think somebody like him offering an alternative to the stereotypes of Bristol as being this kind of woke city. I hate that word, but you know what I mean? You know, he's made a point of, what did he say about getting the statues out? You know, he's playing to that narrative, isn't he? He's playing to the perception of what people in the region have to Bristol, and maybe some of those, you know, South and North Bristol estates, you know, Southmead and Brentry and Lawrence Weston. I got a feeling he's going to do a lot better than what people think.
Pete Simson
His rhetoric is very different from the kind of right-of-centre conservatives that have, you know, large pockets of support in the city. If you think about Bristol's Tory group, all right, they suffered, didn't they in numbers at the last year's local election, but they've always had a fair amount of support in parts of North Bristol. But Banks is completely different, isn't he, in what he says, and he's probably going after, as you say, lapsed Labour supporters. Farage is, of course, really good mates with Aaron banks. Be interesting, if Banks can get Farage to visit the region, that would be a coup.
Neil Maggs
There’d be a fair few protests, wouldn't there? I mean, the rhetoric is also, you know, the whole thing that's gone on at the moment with British Steel, you know, Reform are sounding like old Labour a little bit. They're kind of, they're definitely positioning themselves? Yeah, I think it'd be interesting. I just wonder whether Bristol's kind of liberal left bubble could be in for a bit of a nasty shock?
Pete Simson
I go back to my original point: in elections that have low turnouts, it doesn't take much for results to turn one way or the other. Neil.
Neil Maggs
So do you think this is a genuine five horse race?
Pete Simson
Poor Ian Scott, the independent candidate! I mean, he's probably listening to this thinking, hang on. What about me? I think you're right though. A few weeks ago, I would have called it very differently, but you know, Banks’s entry… but I can see a scenario where each one of those five main party candidates could end up winning, and that makes it exciting.
Neil Maggs
If I can generalise for a minute, there's two types of conservative voters. There's people that sort of lean a bit to the right that I think could be mopped up by Reform. And I think there's more of the sort of small c conservatives that I think, you know, with a of a more liberal persuasion that, yeah, I think with Banks entering the arena, could be pushed to the Lib Dems. But it is a really, really complicated situation that how this will go now, yeah, and it does make it a lot more interesting. I mean, you can argue some of his politics is a bit unpalatable, Banks and his style, you know, he's made some pretty derogatory comments about the Somali community in Bristol, for example, and he's doubled down on them. He made a comment, didn't he a few years ago, about parts of Bristol being like, looking like Somalia. And he was asked, Is that racist? And he said, No, and he doubled down. I've never seen anybody speak like that in Bristol politics.
Pete Simson
I think it's a slight changing of the Overton Window, isn't it? Is it's kind of going back in another direction.
Neil Maggs
We're in this post-Trump, sort of new anti EDI world.
Pete Simson
Now, you don't want to get too A-Level about things, talking about Overton Windows, but it's basically, you know, what's acceptable for discussion, what's up for debate, what's acceptable get a certain moment in time in the political sphere, and, you know, comments like that normally would make him a persona non grata not that long ago. It's amazing how things have changed but, you know, he's playing to his potential voter base.
Neil Maggs
And that could potentially play out. The voting system you referred to before was slightly different this time, whereas before, even I didn't quite fully understand it all it was you had your first round, second round, and all this kind of stuff. This time it's just first past the post, straight shoot out. Does that play to one of the parties more than others?
Pete Simson
Well, if you think about what we were talking about, the Greens, for example, it means all their votes in places like Bath and North East Somerset and South Glos will still count. So you know, it could potentially help some of the parties who under the previous system may have thought that they won't get a look-in. So potentially, yes. I think actually, for a mayoral election, first past the post is probably the most sensible way of doing it. You can argue about the House of Commons and Parliament and how that works, but I think in this sense, is probably the most sensible way.
Neil Maggs
And for whoever wins this to be a success or to be seen as being a success in the role – because, dare I say it, most people would perhaps say the last two haven't been a resounding success – what do people need to do differently to be seen in that way? You know, WECA was in special measures, wasn't it until 2024 so this is not just an opinion. There have been problems, around the relationships with other councils, several senior officers have quit in the last year. There's been problems. What does the new person need to do to turn the ship around?
Pete Simson
They need to get a consensus with the other council leaders, with their own senior officers who are paid a lot of money, and do need to share the vision of the mayor. Otherwise, you sometimes end up in a situation, rightly or wrongly, where, as you say, there's been all sorts of turmoil at the top of the authority, people getting payoffs, people signing NDAs. Just look at the amount of senior officers that left, and you could see that there were issues going on there. So whoever does win this, they need to get like their ducks in order structurally to make it work, and then Neil, it's really quite simple. There's like, the best part of half a billion pounds sloshing around still from this sustainable transport fund that has been unspent and people want, you know, pretty much the same stuff. When it comes to transport, they want affordable, reliable, decent public transport, and it doesn't matter if, like, the buses are all the same colour or they're run by a private company. For most people, I think if they're on time, they're affordable and they can be relied on. Really, you're onto a winner.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, and dare I say, there's been quite a lot of gimmicky stuff that's been done with buses – Dan Norris’s birthday bus pass… the accusation is of PR stunts, rather than actually something that's going to meaningfully change transport and people's lives in the city.
Pete Simson
To be fair, the authority would argue that whole free birthday bus thing was about getting people to go on a bus where they might not normally do that. And there are some figures you know, I think it's KPMG, who did a survey and actually looked into it and said, to be fair, judging by who we've spoken to, actually it's worked in that sense, there were more people using the free bus pass and then using the bus afterwards. But as soon as you start deciding to take the bus for work and ditch your car – say you live in South Glos, going into Bristol – you go, ‘alright, I'll give it a go’. But as soon as the bus doesn't turn up one day…
Neil Maggs
Yeah it's a cultural thing, in in Bristol and actually probably the other areas. But certainly in Bristol, it's a cultural issue depending on what party you're in, depending on what part of the city you live in. The Liveable Neighbourhoods scheme has thrown that open, hasn't it? Where you've got people wanting to reduce traffic, wanting to reduce pollution, but you've got people that need it for their getting from A to B, they've got five from A to B, they've got five kids off to work. They're dropping the kids off the school. And it's always been this sort of unrealistic conversation between sort of two tribes in the city that won’t give an inch…
Pete Simson
Exactly. I mean, in many respects, the Liveable Neighbourhoods are a bit of a red herring here, because most of them have been put in place by the individual councils and not WECA. But you're right. I remember going to Barton hill when this was just a suggestion. And, you know, a guy who lived there, he was a taxi driver, he was like, the council have asked us if how we want to improve the area, and we said, ‘Great. We want a pharmacy, you know. We want a youth club, you know. We want a doctor's surgery,’ you know, basic provisions, like decent stuff. And they're like, oh, no, no, we're going to put planters in the middle of the road, cameras up if you drive down your street. ‘Yeah, we didn't ask for that.’ There are other parts of the ward, obviously, where it's very popular and it's reduced traffic.
Neil Maggs
So this is what I mean, it's a tricky one. I mean, Steve Smith seems to be sort of siding with this whole, ‘this is a war on motorists’. That's the sort of issue that he's talking about quite a lot in this campaign.
Pete Simson
He is trying to mobilise people who are unhappy with roadworks, the idea that Park Street might be closed to through-traffic, and that sort of thing. The fact is, whoever's the West of England mayor, they're going to bring in another Liveable Neighbourhood in South Bristol. The funding is in place for that. The work is already underway, although I think it's been slightly delayed. It covers a massive part, but it's the bit that's like, you know, closest to the city centre. So like Southville, Bedminster, Windmill Hill, you know, the bits where it will probably be welcome. You know, you've got a lot of well-to-do middle class metropolitan types who live there.
Neil Maggs
You live there, don't you?
Pete Simson
I do. I'm a fully paid up member!
Neil Maggs
You once referred to yourself in an interview with Bristol 24/7 as that didn't you? You called yourself a gentrified metropolitan wanker… I think you’ve been a bit harsh on yourself there…
Pete Simson
Well, I've moved from like, you know, a land far away, Somerset and where, to be fair, you know, job opportunities, whilst not, you know, completely…
Neil Maggs
You could have been picking apples off a tree for Thatchers!
Pete Simson
Exactly, you get slightly more options in Bristol. So, no, I probably was being a little bit harsh on myself.
Neil Maggs
You're definitely not metropolitan. I wouldn't say! But back to who wins this, right? This is something people care about, definitely, and if this is a broader thing about politicians – I think they should try and guarantee that whoever does win is going to be committed to the role itself and is not, like Dan Norris, going to look to become an MP while still in post and take two salaries while in the same post. That's been in every conversation I've had.
Pete Simson
Yeah it’s a bad look, and especially when you consider that you know the outgoing mayor wanted to stand again and continue to do both. Labour changed their own internal rules so that you're not allowed to be a member of parliament, so, you know, it basically ruled down Norris out or he had to choose.
Neil Maggs
So clearly it was not – I guess that's my point. It was not the most important role to him if he had to choose.
Pete Simson
Well, I think it's more that he might not necessarily have had the support from the Labour Party, but clearly he didn’t think the role was enough…
Neil Maggs 55:35
Maybe, this was a stepping stone, back into parliamentary politics. And I think, you know, you look at someone like Burnham, you look at like Sadiq Khan. You know, I'm sure Norris tried to do his best, but it just doesn't look great, I don't think, taking two salaries and doing two jobs when some might say you weren't doing the first job that great, yeah?
Pete Simson
So what you're saying is it's slightly belittling of the role which pays like, 90 grand a year…
Neil Maggs
I just think that that kind of makes people really, really cynical about politics and politicians. I, and so I guess probably, you know, the public, would like to see somebody just want this role.
Pete Simson
It'll be very interesting to see who wins it in that case, won't it, and see where their loyalties really lie. Because actually it is a role that's important, like public transport, like social mobility, like people getting around the region, like rail travel, bus travel, like keeping our roads congestion free, like that sort of stuff is fundamental to a place. So, you know, it's not to say that it's not an important job.
Neil Maggs
I think it's a huge job. But actually I think increasingly everything is going to start to be, you know, moving, the devolution, even in media, the BBC. You know, everything's now being put out to regions and relocated. And, you know, people have been moved out into Leeds, into Cardiff, into Salford. I think, generally speaking, the country has become really, really aware now of how Londoncentric everything is, and actually people are being left behind. So I think regional politics has become increasingly important. And you have to look at people like Burnham, and Andy Street, and Sadiq Khan, Ben Houchen, you know? Whatever their political persuasion is, putting their local area on the map. That's the bit that we need to do.
Pete Simson
So you need someone that's gonna, like, totally bat for the region, and is gonna get inward investment, to use a horrible business term, and to try and make the most of what is a strong regional economy. But it could be so much better. It doesn't have a strong regional voice in Westminster, it just hasn't traditionally, for whatever reason – not helped by the fact that the leaders of the combined authorities haven't seen eye to eye.
Neil Maggs
It's also been a bit confusing with… he has his critics, but I would say, in fairness to the former Bristol mayor and George, both for George and Marvin they did do quite well putting Bristol on the map and it being seen as a, you know, a kind of, the more of a visual presence. I think that that now maybe it's been a bit confusing as to who represents who and all that kind of stuff. And now that there is just one mayoral role in this region that it does need to be elevated to that. But what we are also talking about, and we mentioned about profile, yeah, Andy Burnham had profile, didn't he, before he went into that job, Sadiq Khan had profile. Have any of these people got that? Or are they, with the exception of Banks, just local councillors standing for a big, big job?
Pete Simson
Possibly not to the extent of the others that you've just mentioned, but what I would say is that I don't necessarily see that as a negative, it's a chance to create that profile by having this job and making sure that you're at the forefront of the conversations about devolution and doing things and coming up with ideas that will make headlines and will resonate and will actually work, because if you just go into this job and either be someone that's kind of invisible, or be someone that does it in the complete opposite way, to the point where the whole thing doesn't really function properly. It's going to be a complete waste of everyone's time. And the fundamental reason for having a Combined Authority is that it's devolution. It's decentralising power away from Westminster. If it doesn't work, then they might as well just go, well…
Neil Maggs
Perhaps the the role should have more power somewhere, if it's deadlock, if it's constant deadlock, so people will say, now it's perhaps it's been a personality clash, which may well have been the case with different people, and that may change, but if it turns out it's not that, then, like you said, if everything is constant inertia and nothing happening, then what's the bloody point of the role?
Pete Simson
There's an argument to say that the mayor should be able to veto the others…
Neil Maggs
Which is the counter argument to what people said about the Bristol mayor.
Pete Simson
I'm just saying there's an argument to say that if you're going to have a directly elected linchpin either, then they should be able to leave their policy on the table and do what they say they're going to do…
Neil Maggs
Yes, and by all means, build consensus and bring people with you. But this constant game of cancel is really not doing anyone any good, is it? And I suppose for me, forgetting being a journalist, removing myself from this show – as a voter, that's kind of what I want to see, is a little bit of momentum.
Pete Simson
Yes, you know, 100% agree with you and that, I think that's fair enough. And I think actually that's where maybe not having a profile like that, like we talked about, might stand the winner in good stead. We shall see. We shall see.
Neil Maggs
May the first – you are going to be putting an all nighter for this. Usually do, don't you?
Pete Simson
No, there's an excellent… I've got a replacement who's starting literally that week, Hannah Miller, who will be Bristol's new politics reporter, and she's covering it for the radio, and she's got loads of TV experience, so she'll be doing Points West as well.
Neil Maggs
So I guess your role is different now, isn't it? Because you would have, traditionally have had to been there at the count. I've done it a couple of times, but nowhere near like you. And it is quite a bit of a buzz, isn't it?
Pete Simson
It is a buzz, absolutely – but you need to keep yourself fuelled. The first time I went to an overnight count, I was like, Well, I never normally eat anything at 2.30am. So, yeah, just just took some water, and by the end, I was flagging.
Neil Maggs
And Adam Postans, the LDR, usually brings, like, an array of lots of different types of crisps for journalists and stuff. Doesn't he?
Pete Simson
Big up to Adam because he brings, you know, like the wall of pub snacks – like Scampi Fries and Bacon Fries. I mean, they're really bad for you, aren't they, but at 3:20am, a pack of Bacon Fries. Oh, just the ticket. Just the ticket.
Neil Maggs
You know, when they pull the all nighters, people like Andrew Neill, it's like nine o'clock in the morning. They're still going. God, how you do that?
Pete Simson
I know, and they've got their head full of so much information. I mean, I've been on a couple of those programmes before. You know the the overnight network programmes, where they come to you on the South Gloucestershire count…
Neil Maggs
And when they come to you, almost like they go into the seat to the sort of football report kind of thing.
Pete Simson
But when the result, when the results have already happened, because as soon as the results happen, you do the media bits afterwards, because it's always in, like a leisure centre or a school hall, they always clear it out straight away. So whenever you do an interview like that, you just hear Clang, Clang, clang in the background, where they're packing up all the tables. So off putting! You've got Laura Kuenssberg going ‘so, South …’
Neil Maggs
But you won't be doing that this year, you're delegating that now you're the director of football, so to speak…
Pete Simson
On Sunday, May the fourth – Star Wars day – we'll have a Politics West election special live, including the new West of England mayor.
Neil Maggs
I mean, if, if people weren't revved up to get out and vote after this conversation, I expect to see a huge spike in after this!
Pete Simson
If this doesn't excite them, Neil, then really nothing will…
Neil Maggs
So Mum, get out and vote! Thanks, Pete. It's been great to talk to you. There's probably lots of stuff we've missed, I could talk to you for a lot longer. We've covered most, I think, covered most of the main bases. Yeah. So just to reiterate, your show is when? Just say it again…
Pete Simson
Politics West, Sunday morning, 10am. The next show is on 4 May, but we're on it pretty much every Sunday, 10 o'clock.
Neil Maggs
Are you still gonna get in front of the camera, though, because I think you need to do a bit of that.
Pete Simson
I'm doing bits and pieces. I am. It's having that balance of, have I got enough time to do this and also make a film?
Neil Maggs
Good, good. And yeah, we'll see each other soon some point. And good luck. And congratulations with the new job.
Pete Simson
Thank you very much. Neil, it's been great to talk to you.
Neil Maggs
All the best, Pete, Cheers. Bye.