Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to "Lessons from the Couch", where we invite you to pull up a seat and join Corina and Mariana—two marriage and family therapists based in Illinois—on a journey through therapy, life, and everything in between. In each episode, we have honest and engaging conversations with therapists and non-therapists alike, exploring their unique experiences in and around therapy. Whether it's the story of a therapist navigating early career challenges or a non-therapist sharing how therapy changed their life, our goal is to show just how accessible and transformative these conversations can be.
We also dive into the diverse career paths and personal journeys within the field of mental health, from seasoned professionals to those just starting out (like Corina and Mariana, who are at opposite timelines of their own therapy careers).
If you're curious about therapy, mental health, or simply enjoy meaningful conversations, "Lessons from the Couch" is for you. Get ready to think, reflect, and discover new perspectives one conversation at a time.
Follow Lessons from the Couch on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen to new episodes.
Co-Hosted by Corina Teofilo Mattson and Mariana Reyes Daza. Show art by Jae Avilez. Music by Brandon Acosta.
If you're interested in therapy services, either in person or via telehealth, and reside in Illinois, visit www.liveoakchicago.com to learn more.
We're here to give and we're here to receive. That goes back to my attachment theory that I embrace. And so I've tried over the years really tap into and listen to what I'm knowing about myself. I think I have a gift of being able to listen to people. I think I have a gift of being able to give people feedback in a way in which they could receive.
Nancy Tartt:I paid attention to, This person asked me for this advice, and they listened and they listened. Well, maybe I'm on to something here.
Corina:Hi, my name is Corina Teofilo Mattson.
Mariana:I'm Mariana Reyes Daza, and we are the co hosts for Lessons from the Couch.
Corina:Throughout this podcast, you're going to find us having intimate, deep conversations. We'll be talking to therapists and probably some non therapists, and we're going bring you into the therapy room with us.
Mariana:It was so lovely to meet you yesterday. I wanna say I've dropped off various microphones in my days. And even just in the few seconds we got to chat, you gave off such warm welcoming energy. I was driving home and I was like, Oh my God, I'm so excited to chat with Nancy tomorrow. After just like that brief interaction, I can tell that you just bring some lovely energy and so, so excited to have you here and meet you properly.
Mariana:And that we got that first intro face to face before our chat.
Nancy Tartt:Yeah, that was wonderful. Thanks again for bringing it.
Mariana:Yeah, no problem. I love seeing new areas of Chicago. After dropping off the microphone, I was just driving around and I was like, Oh, like so many nice parks. The lake is right there. I start envisioning my future and I'm like, Where could I be in the future?
Mariana:Maybe this is a place. Let's get right to it if that sounds good. Nancy, we'd love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners to start off telling us a little bit about who you are and maybe telling us some of the work that you do as a therapist.
Nancy Tartt:Sure. So I am Nancy Tark. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm proud to say that I've been at Live Oak now for about seven years. Is that correct, Corina?
Nancy Tartt:Yeah, I've been there for about seven years. I see individuals, couples and families and center my work around doing relational work as well as a little bit of narrative, but mainly relational feminist work and a little bit of EFT as well.
Corina:I'm just going to confirm the date because I love to celebrate about it because I'm like thinking it is actually nine years. Nancy, it is actually nine years. And like, basically right now, because you started in July 2016.
Mariana:Almost a decade.
Nancy Tartt:That's wonderful.
Corina:That's amazing. Would you
Nancy Tartt:mind
Corina:sharing about where you're at with your other career? Would you mind sharing where you're at on that journey?
Nancy Tartt:Oh, most definitely. So when I started at Live Oak, I was also working at the University of Illinois at Chicago. And there I was an associate director. And I always refer to that as my mortgagepension job. And Live Oak was my passion work when I did.
Nancy Tartt:And so I recently retired from my mortgage pension job, yes, which is wonderful, which was May 1. And so to be able to totally be within myself authentically and spending head energy looking at and being able to engage in my passion work was just such a nice transition. It doesn't feel forced. It doesn't feel like I need to switch my brain and my heart and my passion is right where it needs to be. So I'm grateful for the mortgage and full pension job.
Nancy Tartt:But right now, I am totally able to engage in the work that I feel like I was put here to do.
Mariana:I'm curious, what was the journey of discovering those two areas, both being the associate director at the university and then bringing therapy into your life? What was that process like?
Nancy Tartt:I won't go too far back. It's also being aware and living in your purpose. And when I look back and I think about different ways that I would interact with people in college, I had a nickname, which I didn't see it as a nickname before. They used call me mom and dance. And this one guy started calling me that, and it was because people would ask me stuff, my ability to connect to people.
Nancy Tartt:And I didn't think about that in that same way. And so when I was also working at an organization that I wind up leaving for reasons where I had to sue them. I was there one day and I said, Spiritually, tell me where I'm supposed to be. And spiritually, I got this message to get up and go and call Adler University. And I went outside and I called them.
Nancy Tartt:And the reason why I wanted to go there is because they don't have to take the GRE and it's also their sociopolitical stance. And I applied, I got in, and then it was history. I became a therapist.
Corina:What year was that Nancy?
Nancy Tartt:I graduated from Adler in 2013 and I started in 2010. And I eventually went back to the place to UIC where they could embrace me being able to do that. So it was definitely an alignment that needed to happen. Went back to UIC. The day I sought it back at UIC was also my first day at APA.
Corina:There's so many good stories built into that. And we will definitely not get to all of them today. Would love it if you come back. But I wonder, as you think about the things that have become your focus, within couples work, how would you describe the cases that are the best fit for you, the work that's the best fit for you, and then how you found your way into that?
Nancy Tartt:I sort of embraced them all, but the way in which I embrace them, I'm really focused on attachment and really being able to introduce attachment as my belief, which is our authentic nature of being here. We are attached to other people. We didn't come here to live alone. Our attachment starts pre birth before we actually enter earth. It starts with the person that's carrying us to get here.
Nancy Tartt:Then we attach to others as life proceeds. In ways in which we are able to make those attachments, sometimes we have various journeys that we're on in doing those attachments. And so being able to introduce that concept to couples and understanding that we are all working from attachment. And sometimes there are attachment injuries that happen that create blocks for us to be together, for them to be together. So when we're able to look at those dynamics, I think it's much easier for couples then to embrace because they're not only embracing it as the couple.
Nancy Tartt:We know in couples therapy, the therapist is the client, but we're also making space for individuals in that space as well. I think that's how I approach couples the ones that I've been able and that's why I said it was an interesting question because no one walked away yet as a couple. So I think that really embraces our collective work together when I'm working with couples.
Corina:That's remarkable, Nancy, that no one's walked away yet. That's remarkable. I mean, that's beautiful. Would you say that you're a person who really believes in the potential of what can come when people stay together? Is that a philosophy?
Nancy Tartt:I think that there's potential in people being aware of what needs to happen if they choose to stay together, but also being aware if this union is not the best for them as a whole. I don't go in with the judgment of saying that it's best that you stay together or not because that's the journey of finding out that you have some thoughts.
Corina:I really resonate with the words you just used, this sense that it's my opportunity to help people explore that sort of nature of themselves and the relationship. And then to say from there, what's the healthiest, best right choice I can make for myself, but not to feel so committed to people staying together or not staying together. And I love that you said, but I do have some thoughts. My experience with you, Nancy, is that you are really skillful at holding your thoughts unless someone asks for it in a way that I do not find myself so skillful.
Nancy Tartt:Let's try.
Mariana:That's such an interesting skill to think of, especially when it comes to couples work. I've found, especially when doing couples therapy, that I will have more instances of people telling me what's going on and being like, so tell us what to do, or What is your advice? What is the solution? And almost feeling a little bit more rushed than I noticed in individual therapy. And so it sounds like that skill of almost being able to hold that is valuable.
Mariana:I'm curious how you find yourself, Nancy, responding to maybe instances where a couple might be pulling you towards, just give us the answers and what do we have to do?
Nancy Tartt:Couples come in so that you could fix the other person all the time. You know, it's not them. And so one of the things that I always do is to get people to understand who the client is in the room. The client is the relationship. And that we will spend time seeing how each of you contribute to eventually.
Nancy Tartt:That's who the client is. And then two, also, I don't have the answer to your life and relationship. I shouldn't have that much power in the room or in the relationship. I'm not the one to tell you what's best for you. I'm the one to help you try to see and come to that realization on your own.
Nancy Tartt:Don't have magic dust. If it was that easy, you would know. I have built language over the years of helping clients to be able to see that because sometimes that can make an individual angry. Say, That's what we're paying you for. You're not paying me to fix your marriage.
Nancy Tartt:You're not paying for me to decide. That's maybe a lawyer. That takes a lot of time in the beginning, especially the person because someone of that couple is going to call you. And so lots of times that person either thinks that they are the lead or the other person thinks that that person is the lead. So we try to set those parameters in the beginning.
Corina:I was going to ask if you'd be willing to share about the organization that you're building.
Nancy Tartt:Oh, sure. Thank you. I love the invitation because yesterday I also felt spiritually, someone was saying, the organization. I'm in recovery mode from retirement, or I should say, sell in, just reorienting myself. The name of my organization is called Inspirational Synergy.
Nancy Tartt:In Inspirational Synergy, I'll do individual couples and family therapy. There's also a component to inspirational synergy called SojournerSpeak. SojournerSpeak is the opportunity for BIPOC individuals to work to address microaggressions on a macro, on a micro level within their workplace, but also within their individual and their daily lives, I would say. Because microaggressions happen everywhere, all the time. I think being able to utilize my therapeutic skills and allowing people to develop their voice in ways in which they best feel that they can address those dynamics that occur in their life all the time is an opportunity.
Nancy Tartt:Those opportunities are available for individuals. I'll do groups and any organization who is willing to have me come into their organization to work with those individuals to be able to find their authentic voice. I feel with organizations that are willing to do that, especially in this climate, is a benefit because it also enhances the ability for that organization to function more effectively as well with having individuals who can stand in their purpose and use their authentic voice to be part of that organization. That's inspirational synergy.
Corina:How's the process?
Nancy Tartt:So the process is that it's a website.
Corina:That's a step. That's a step for sure.
Nancy Tartt:And I feel like I'm going to have a launch in August to do that just to decide how I will balance both because I'm a live oak girl. And so that's that, but also how I will roll out this SojournerSpeak piece of it as well. I did do SojournerSpeak for two years during COVID. That's how it all got started, where a group of women came together virtually. It started off by we would meet every week and then it went to twice a month.
Nancy Tartt:We would meet and provide support to each other around those kinds of issues of addressing microaggressions. Then we start this group and then comes that you're then the leader of the group. I wanted it to be where I was part of the group. But that was fine. And so then I thought, another gift where I need to live that out while I'm here on Earthside.
Mariana:Your strengths were pulling you towards that leadership place within those conversations.
Corina:That's a beautiful entree. The piece about expertise that I was hoping you'd be willing to talk about was actually how you find that you know things that are the right next step for you, because you have spoken to me about this. And it's a relationship with self that I find pretty remarkable and I think would be really beautiful for folks who listen to the podcast to hear about. Would you mind talking about your relationship with your own knowing?
Nancy Tartt:Yeah, I think that we all have that. I think in ways that we need to listen. But it also goes back to my belief as to why we're here. We're here to give and we're here to receive. And so we're here to hone those gifts, share those gifts, and then we're here to receive other people's gifts.
Nancy Tartt:That goes back to my attachment theory that I embrace, and this comes with age and wisdom, I guess, over the years, really tap into and listen to what I'm knowing about myself. That's happened with the therapy, where I felt like, You know what? I'm in this organization that I don't like, and I know that I need to be someplace else. Then to really think back and own the gifts that you have. I think I have a gift of being able to listen to people.
Nancy Tartt:I think I have a gift of being able to give people feedback in a way in which they could receive. I paid attention to, This person asked me for this advice, and they listened and they listened. Well, maybe I'm onto something here. Then it becomes, Do you like it? And I do.
Nancy Tartt:It's something that I feel came naturally. Of course, I needed to hone my skills. I needed to put that in a package where I would be able to legitimately do it. That's what I've tried to do. I think once you put out in the universe that you're willing to hear, you'll start to get those little pangs.
Nancy Tartt:Like yesterday I got the pang of, what about inspirational synergy?
Mariana:You're referring to this part of you that's like the spiritual knowing that like guides you, informed by your skills, etc. One thing that I'm thinking of as I'm hearing you is in my personal relationship with knowing, I sometimes struggle with the line between like, I know this thing because I'm grounded in myself versus I make impulsive decisions and I see something and I'm like, this sounds right. And so I'm going to apply and a year from now, I'm going be in grad school for marriage and family therapy and hope it works out. And so I'm curious if and how you have learned to distinguish this is something that I know because I'm being guided by like historically the areas where I've done well, etcetera, versus like, I feel an impulse in this moment and maybe I should take some time to think about it versus follow through with it.
Nancy Tartt:Oh yeah, that happens too. It's not as if I'm doing this so perfectly, but the opportunities where I did take advantage of those voices or those messages, that has been the result. Now, human nature also, which is wonderful, allows you to do those other things. And sometimes that's the path. I'm working with a client now who needed to be in a different position at his job and he had a pretty prominent job.
Nancy Tartt:And so one of the things we talk about is this opportunity that he has gotten, even though it was not what he wanted and not his doing, but what is this opportunity also presenting you with? And it's time. So what are you going to do with that time? And then that's a gift. So we don't always see them as clearly.
Nancy Tartt:And I haven't reached that level of perfection yet. So there's times when you just do something. And that's the beauty too. Just doing it.
Corina:That reminds me of something that you said to me once you were talking about books and you were saying that you think books called to us. I loved that, and it feels so true because I will have books on my shelf for years. And then I will just suddenly feel for a thousand reasons, subtle reasons, connected to one and it will be the right time. That feels connected to this question of knowing that there's something bigger than me, some collection of moments and truths that leads me to something. So I wonder, as you're building this organization, how do you think about the lessons that you've learned throughout your career that are informing how you're approaching this organization?
Corina:When I
Nancy Tartt:was building the organization, talking about the organization, and to a number of people that are in business, or even when I was joining my website, people kept saying, those are two separate things. Those are two separate organizations. I don't know if you can put them together. Oh yeah, I want to because they go together for me and I want to do both of them. That's one of the reasons why I started also describing it the way that I do because having individuals being able to gain wisdom, confidence, and authenticity of developing their own voice and addressing the microaggressions that they experience.
Nancy Tartt:That's key. And that does tie to my therapeutic skills of being able to build an environment in which people could do that, either on a one on one basis or a group basis or an organizational basis. So I think that it's an overlap. I also have this feeling of urging where I need to work with individuals so that they stand in their purpose. In my growing over the years, and that's why I also use the term finding your own voice, because that's something that I had to also accept that others needed to do.
Nancy Tartt:So you might not say it the way Nancy says it. I went through in my younger years of feeling like, Just say it like that. Just do that. Just stand up this way. But that might not be your circumstance.
Nancy Tartt:That might not be who you are, but being able to do it in your own authentic voice is very important. So I had to grow to understand that, especially when we're looking at issues of justice and social justice, some of those things can be pretty black and white for me. Being able to stand in your purpose to address those is not black and white. Addressing it is black and white. Being able to address it.
Corina:I think I hear you saying you help people find access, practice, connect with their own voice so that the addressing is authentic to them, whatever that is.
Nancy Tartt:Exactly. Because usually we're stuck in not addressing it. And then there's this, what goes on, it's like you hold more of what the injustice is that's being done to you than for you to be able to speak that because nine times out of 10, you're thinking about how it's going to come across. You're thinking about the other person. You're thinking about all of those things, which is secondary because you need to be able to move through that, move with it and stand in it.
Nancy Tartt:You need to be able to walk away from it feeling like you stood in your purpose how you chose to do that, but that you did it.
Mariana:Live Oak Chicago is a primarily queer, trauma informed therapy practice located on the North Side Of Chicago, offering both in person and virtual therapy, consultation and workshops. We are committed to the practice of becoming a model of a community of diversely identified humans working together to transform the emotional, psychological and spiritual well-being of individuals, families and communities, beginning with ourselves. To access therapy, training, or consultation, please visit www.liveoakchicago.com. I wonder, what do you think about this lesson of standing in your purpose and helping people find that for themselves? For other people that have been in the education world and in similar positions to you in the university, what is maybe valuable about this lesson that you think has supported you in that field rather than the therapy field?
Nancy Tartt:That's so funny that you mentioned that because at my retirement party, my boss, my supervisor said to everyone, Now the therapist is gone, and so now you will have to come to me for those things, or you're going to have to pay her now. I had that same stance as a supervisor because, one, I never used the language, My employees, or You work for me. No, you don't. We work for this organization. We have different roles, but you don't work for me or my staff.
Nancy Tartt:Also, trying to instill in individuals just like I do in therapy. This is your journey. I would encourage people that you need to move up and out. You need to go after a while. If you feel that this is your destination, okay, fine.
Nancy Tartt:But don't feel that this needs to be your destination just because I'm your supervisor and you're talking to me. And that really freed people up to be able to embrace all of who they wanted to be. If you want to be here for a year, be here for a year and go. I always talk to people that I work with and try to feed into them in that way as well.
Corina:Nancy, I really relate to that. And I find that rare among people in leadership and organizations. So I wonder if you could share where you learned to help people to be free in the way that you just described.
Nancy Tartt:I don't know if I can pinpoint where I learned it, but I will start with, which comes to me, with my mom. My mother was the first person that I saw that stood up in her place of employment. My mother was on a picket line for eighteen months and was one of the people that was organizing for those individuals to pick it. I was eight or nine. I saw someone standing in their purpose, I say this a lot, and what they felt like they deserved, even though it meant we're taking this risk and saying to others, Oh no, we need to do this, and doing it, and they won.
Nancy Tartt:You look back in thinking about imprints, how that was imprinted on you, how you should be able to stand in who you are even within an organization, because you have the power of you. I think that might've been the first time.
Mariana:You experienced the direct effect of somebody standing up for themselves, speaking up for what they needed and seeing change. And I just think in the broad and general world and global situations, how nothing really changes unless somebody decides to speak up and ask for something different. And just hearing you speak, I reflect on messages that maybe I've received around the fear of standing up for ourselves. And then it's like, well, you're risking either getting stuck in something that doesn't feel good or regressing into something maybe even worse, and just how much the potential for positive change can hopefully initiate the desire for standing up for ourselves and for that standing for our purpose that you're naming.
Nancy Tartt:Because you deserve to. You know the reason, you deserve it, to do that as an entity here. You deserve that.
Corina:Thank you so much, Nancy. I always like to check-in with Mariana at the end, Mariana being on the earlier side of her clinical career. Mariana, is there anything standing out to you today?
Mariana:I actually am thinking of giving a shout out to Lucy in this moment for our listeners. Lucy is our director of operations at Live Oak and does a fantastic job of it. And she said something to me around the fact that, like, the people that have been able to make the most out of their careers in the different organizations that she's been at have always been the people that are able to stand up and name the things that they feel need to change or be better. And I've been sitting with that message of how much taking those moments to speak up for ourselves actually benefits us. And I'm hearing that message as the most important thing here today as well, that there were different points in the journey for you, Nancy, where you noticed, okay, spiritually, I feel this calling towards this thing and I want to honor myself and honor my needs by following through with it.
Mariana:And on the other side as well, like empowering other people to find that purpose and find that gravitation towards something better. And the importance of being able to grow within ourselves to be able to do that is an important lesson. Yeah, lessons from the couch. It's an important lesson to be able to acknowledge the ways in which our experiences impact our ability to speak up and as much as possible empower ourselves and work towards that. And so connecting that with the message from Lucy, if you want change, you can start with yourself and empowering yourself to do that.
Corina:That's a perfect ending. Nancy, thank you so much for your time. I hope we'll have a chance to have you come back again so we can talk about a bunch of other things, including yourself as a clinical supervisor, etcetera, etcetera. But thank you.
Nancy Tartt:I'd love to. I love this. This is great. Thank you.
Mariana:Again, thank you for bearing with us through the tech stuff.
Nancy Tartt:Oh no, bearing with me.
Mariana:We worked it out.
Nancy Tartt:Yeah, bearing with me. And all the lights went off. Like, what the hell?
Mariana:It was interesting that the image had gone absolutely like gray.
Nancy Tartt:And then it kept telling me when I tried to reconnect, it wanted me to get support.
Corina:Oh yeah. That's Mariana.
Mariana:It said, You, you need support. Yeah. And I'm like,
Nancy Tartt:I'm good. I'm good. I don't need your support. Then it says, I don't understand what you're saying. I was like, Oh, forget it.
Mariana:Yeah. My favorite thing is when I'm on Zoom and it says unstable. And I'm like, Yes, I know. Thanks for reminding me.
Nancy Tartt:I see. I read. I read.
Mariana:Next time on Lessons From The Couch.
Carl Hampton:One of the things I talk about with my students all the time is when somebody comes into therapy initially as a therapist, you should acknowledge the power of humbling yourself and not knowing your clients have made a huge, huge investment of emotion by calling you and scheduling an appointment. It's not an easy thing to do, right? So be humble to your clients. They're not just a fee. They're not just a clinical hour.
Carl Hampton:They are actually somebody who is at a point, the depths of their somehow suffering, they're reaching out for help. When you can do that effectively, then I think you really add to the field.