Lieutenant-General Jocelyn Paul shares his priorities and vision to make the Canadian Army more agile, versatile and lethal.
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[Fast paced music plays]
Lieutenant-General Jocelyn Paul: You need to be adaptive. You need to be nimble, you need to adjust in everything you do. And, oh, by the way, if you go into combat and you don’t show these abilities, you’re dead on the battlefield.
Captain Adam Orton: Hi! I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. This episode, we’re talking to Lieutenant-General Jocelyn Paul, Commander of the Canadian Army. The events in Ukraine are making us look at how we need to adapt on the modern battlefield. And the Commander is going to tell us a little bit about where the Army is, where it’s going, and how we’re gonna get there. Welcome to the podcast, sir.
LGen Paul: Good morning.
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Capt Orton: So, doing military stuff is an interesting challenge. And I think it’s unique for everybody. You as the Commander, what’s your favourite part about the Army?
LGen Paul: To be out there visiting units, go in the field and talk to these young people who are doing so many great things.
Capt Orton: Why is it important to visit the units?
LGen Paul: Well, to get a feeling on what’s going on. I mean, being at the top of the chain of command, obviously, my division commander and my brigade commander are keeping me informed. But once in a while you want to, you know, drill down to really understand what’s going on—you want to talk, you know, without any filter to these young men and women out there. So that’s why I like to do it. Obviously, you have to be cognizant of the fact that there’s a full chain of command in between me as the Army Commander and our young people. But again, you know, to showcase what’s going on in Ottawa. I like when I’m travelling, explaining to them what is going on in this town in the NCR in the National Capital Region. What is it that the Army headquarters tried to do so that we can make the Army better. So it’s a kind of a two way discussion. I like to explain what's going on here in Ottawa. And I also like to hear what's going on out there in the field and within the unit lines?
Capt Orton: And what are you hearing about what's going on out there in the field?
LGen Paul: Most of the comments, I would say, are related to equipment. I was in Petawawa, and we had a super long discussion about what it is that we need to do with the Light Infantry Battalion. The 3rd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment showcased to me what it is that they are doing to increase their mobility to increase their lethality. They are doing some amazing stuff with the vehicle—the platform that they have. For instance, the MRZR, putting, you know, a machine gun on them, tow systems, and so on and so forth. So lots of discussion about that. The other one that I keep hearing about as well is the impact of inflation on people’s life, quality of life, wages, benefits. As we can see in the open press, obviously, there’s some financial pressure on every Canadian family. So it is obviously something that is of concern, you know, for our people.
Capt Orton: So, working at the Headquarters, I’ve heard this term thrown around a little bit, and it’s not always immediately obvious what that means to everybody—it’s readiness. Right? It’s the military state. And in our case, the Army’s state of being prepared for operations. And what you’re talking about a little bit, I think, ties into that is—how is the Army doing in terms of its readiness?
LGen Paul: Well, readiness is something both individual and collective. So every single one of us has to be ready to do anything. So, if you want to enhance your personal readiness, it starts with being fit. It starts with knowing what it is that you do as a soldier. It starts with understanding where you fit into the greater picture. And it’s also having your family ready to support you. So that’s like the individual part of the enterprise. Now, when it comes down to the collective side of it, I mean, it’s a huge topic. It’s about people. It’s about training. It’s about equipment. It’s about sustainment. Every single one of these items is extremely complex. The one that keeps me quite focused and busy right now I would say, yeah—actually, there’s three. I’m always focused on my people indeed, you know, day and night. However, right now, what I’m looking at here in Ottawa is more equipment related. So trying to figure out what it is that we can do as an Army HQ with the support of ADMAT, the people here who are procuring the material on our behalf. What is it that we can do so that we can have an Army that is more mobile and more agile, more lethal, best fit for purpose? What is it that we can do to ensure that we have the right equipment, as we are sustaining that big mission in Latvia?
So, there’s a few projects that we have in the book right now? This is what we call, essentially, the UOR, so the Urgent Operational Requirements. So there’s three that we are working on right now. The first one has to do with portable anti-tank missiles, the second one has to do with MANPAD air defense, you know, system. And finally, counter UAV systems as well. So we’re very much focused on that in the near future, so that we can put the right type of equipment into the hands of our people in Latvia. And right after that, my focus is certainly on command and control, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance—what is it that we can do to improve our different suite of communication systems? Because, if there’s one thing that we have learned observing what’s going on in Ukraine right now, is the importance of being able to, to command, to act to shield yourself in a heartbeat. And the only way to do it is to have optimized communication, system intelligence, surveillance, and so on and so forth. It’s all about being able to make your decision quick, fast, and furious. It’s all about communicating to your people—you know, what is it that you are intending to do? The one thing that really got my attention when I’m observing what's going on in Ukraine, is the following one: whoever sends first, whoever processed the information quicker, and whoever makes you know, the decision first will likely win on the battlefield. And actually, the people need to understand that if you have a quicker decision making system in place, even if your opponent is larger, bigger than you and has more equipment than you, if you hit first, you will likely prevail. And that’s exactly what we are learning right now on the battlefield of Ukraine.
Capt Orton: Because we have had a previous podcast that talked about command and control. And we talked about the OODA Loop. Right? Observe, orient, decide and act. And you definitely see that decision making cycle playing a huge role in how things evolve on the battlefield. And you just talked about that and Ukraine. What have we learned from that? How has that impacted the way we’re doing business now?
LGen Paul: Well, if there’s one thing that we have learned out of Ukraine is that these doctrinal foundation that we’ve been working on now for many years was really on the right track. The first one that comes across my mind, for instance, is the concept of Adaptive Dispersed Operation—what we call ADO. So that is something that, in the Army, we’ve been talking about for more than ten years. So the concept being that, you know, you need to be dispersing and when you need to do so then you re aggregate you do your operation, and you disperse again. This is on a modern battlefield, the best way to protect, to shield yourself. But that is not new for any of us. I mean, we’ve been talking about that concept now for so many years. So clearly, you know, this is something that Ukraine has illustrated once again. And also, what’s going on right now, when Ukraine has only confirmed that the Canadian Army Modernization Strategy that was released a few years ago was on target. So the problem that we’re facing, though, is how do you move from that concept to something that is meaningful—something that is tangible for the Army as a whole. And this is where you need to look not only at equipment as I alluded to, but you need to look into your training. You need to look into your people. You need to look into your sustainment.
You see sustainment is something that we are too often taking for granted. Because wherever we train, wherever we go, the food is always there. You know, you have a bed, you have tentage, you know, you have the spare part for your vehicle, and so on and so forth. However, as we saw in Ukraine, if you are facing an opponent who’s deciding to go after your sustainment, you are in deep trouble. And that is what we would be doing. We would try to go after our opponent, our challenger you know, line of supply the same way they would try to do that to our own line of supply. But this is like on the battlefield at the tactical level. But when you talk about sustainment you need also to have a look at it from a national perspective. So, how many spare parts do we have, you know, in the war stock right now, for instance? How many types of ammunition do we have available ready to be used now? You cannot go out there to Walmart or Home Depot and basically procure all of these high-end ticket items. You need to, you know, anticipate what might be your needs. You need to pilot a little bit of logistics. And to do so often takes years. So we are facing that very hard situation right now where the western democracies are basically trying to procure everything we need to protect ourselves in the event that the alliance would be aggressed. So, all of us are chasing the same, you know, high payoff, but low density type of equipment. All of us right now are knocking at the door of the same companies. And we need to keep in mind that, you know, as the Russian aggression was unfolding, most of us in the Western world, you know, didn’t have fully stocked war stock. When the campaign started, and then when we decided to give a hand to the Ukrainians with our own kit and our own equipment, our shelves were half full. So this is where we are starting from, you know, from a sustainment perspective. So, sustainment is certainly critical. What is it that we can do with the Canadian national industry to ensure that we are better prepared for the month and the years to come? So, there’s quite a bit of a discussion going on right now in Ottawa.
And the other one, as well, that we’re paying a bit of attention to has to do with training. So you train at the individual level, you train at the collective level—so, what is it that we can do to optimize that training? Where shall we be investing? Are we training too much in certain areas? The one discussion that I’m trying to generate within the Army right now has to do with experiential learning. The point being that, you know, you go to St-Jean, and you go to Meaford, you go to the training centre, and you know. You are in a room in a class, you go out in the field, this is what I call, you know, the formal aspect of our training. But when you show up at the unit at the armoury, you just keep learning. For us, you know, human beings, you go to work, and every single day of work is a learning opportunity. It’s just that sometimes we do not quantify and we do not measure that properly. So that’s why I like to say all the time, maybe we need to have a second look into our training system. Is it too expensive? Is it too big? Is it too—well, how can I express that? Not cumbersome. But is the training machine a little bit too fat? And shall we maybe give a little more attention to what is it that we do back at the unit?
At the end of the day, soldiers, sections, platoons, companies, units, and so on, and so forth—wherever you work, there’s a limit to the number of hours you can dedicate to training or to maintenance, and so on and so forth. So when it comes down to quality of life, you know, we need to ensure that we are doing what has to be done, but just like I would say, with a kind of a good enough type of mindset. Otherwise, I mean, all of us could be spending years and years, you know, seated in a classroom being trained. And by the way, the one example that I’m using all the time, has to do with what's going on right now in the UK, where Canadian soldiers are training Ukrainian soldiers. And basically, you know, we take soldiers that are civilians. And within a period of about five weeks, they’re being trained extensively and then they go to the frontline in Ukraine. So with the Ukrainians, we deliver something in five, six weeks that for us, back in Canada, takes probably about eighteen-twenty weeks to deliver. So I’m always asking the question, you know, where’s that we can maybe reduce the amount of training? Is every aspect of our training curriculum, you know, still relevant in today’s day and age? We got to ask ourselves that question. And it’s a good discussion to have. Because in everything you do, you need to keep an open mind; you need to keep challenging all the time, these preconceived ideas, and if you do not do so, you are entering a space and the image I like to use all the time. It’s like, you know, giving somebody a shampoo, wash, rinse, and repeat—wash, rinse, and repeat—and wash, rinse and repeat. So that’s why all of us at every level, you know, we need to ask ourselves these questions. Are we still doing it right? What was the right recipe may be ten years ago, may not be the right one, you know, for today’s environment. So you need to be adaptive. You need to be nimble, you need to adjust in everything you do. And, oh, by the way, if you go into combat, and you don’t show, you know, these abilities, you’re dead on the battlefield.
Capt Orton: You know, my first thought is, in the UK, I wonder how many hours of PowerPoint that Ukrainians are doing out there in anticipation of their deployment.
LGen Paul: And, again, I’m certainly not suggesting that we need to reduce everything down to five weeks. Because you know, one of the reasons why Canadian soldiers are being looked at to be trainers all around the world, it’s because we have some of the best soldiers in the world. I like to say all the time that we have the best small army in the world—no doubt about it. I’m intimately convinced of that. So we get there because we have a robust, you know, training system at play. Absolutely. But how good is enough? That's the question that I’m asking. Especially in an environment where the younger generations are very much inclined to have a better quality of life and so on and so forth. And we’ve been hearing about it now for quite a while, you know, the recruiting issues, the retention issues. So this is an area where all of us in the leadership of the Canadian Armed Forces—but also the Army, indeed—we need to ensure that if we want to keep these young men and women, you know, with us, in our larger military family, we need to ensure that there’s a proper space for the family for social activities. What I’m talking about here basically is ensuring that we have the right tempo. If you want to have a twenty or twenty-five, thirty or thirty-five year long career, you cannot go at full speed during these thirty-five years. There comes a point where you need to slow down, you need to take a bit of a pause, you have to give your people a little bit of breathing space, a little bit of social space so that they can be reunited with their loved one and their families. And after that, when it’s time to go on deployment, they will thrive.
Capt Orton: I say this to a lot of friends and stuff is work hard play hard. Like that’s one of my favourite things about our work environment is you do push pretty hard when it’s time to push. But there’s a lot of space to do fun stuff also when it’s the play hard time. And we have a pretty good system for that, sometimes.
So, you mentioned earlier on our involvement in Latvia. And as it stands now, I think we have a battle group strength force there that we’re looking at upgrading to a brigade. For those that might not know, a battle group is smaller, and a brigade is much bigger. What’s that looking like for the Canadian Army’s commitment?
LGen Paul: Well, the shape and form of the multinational brigade is not set yet. So it’s still extremely conceptual. The brigade or the multinational brigade will be at initial operating capability in 2024. So, right now we have a very, very rough idea of what it is that we would like to see out there. But the key point for all of us is that we’re not necessarily going back to what we were experiencing, you know, in Germany, thirty years ago. The Canadian Army will not stand up 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade, as some of the oldest people like me and you. The Canadian Army of today is way much smaller than it was at the end of the eighties, first off. And second, it is a multinational brigade, the same way we’ve been leading that multinational battle group now for quite a few years. So there’s going to be other NATO Allies involved in the force generation of that multinational brigade. Is there going to be two or three manoeuvre elements? All of that is to be determined. So, we have a rough idea of what we would like to see the brigade being capable of delivering. But we need now to figure out with our closest ally, what is it that they are willing to bring to the table? And what is it that Canada is willing to do in 2024? What is it that Canada can do in 2025-2026? Because equipment is going to have to be procured as well. So, I’m going to be heading to Europe where I’m going to be engaging with many of our partnered nations. And there’s going to be what we call force generation discussion. So what is it that Spain can bring to the table? What is it that Italy would like to bring to the table? What is it that the Latvian would like to keep at their level, and so on and so forth. And all of us obviously have to be cognizant of the fact that we need to ensure that whatever we pledge can be sustained in the short, the mid, and the long term. So for us Canadians, this will mean a few things. The first one is that from the get go, there’s going to be from Roto 0—I certainly envision many reserves being employed right from the bat. So, what we would like to do is to have the first reserve being, you know, intimately involved with a percentage of probably around 20-25% from the beginning. And the other big discussion, as well, that we need to figure out is how many battle groups are going to be part of that multinational brigade? How many indirect fire assets are going to be generated, and by who? What's going to be the size of the Combat Engineer units? How robust will be the sustainment? How big, you know, will be the HQ? Which type of communication system we need to fill to make it happen? But also, for us Canadians, we need to have a larger discussion about how much equipment has to be prepositioned out there in Latvia. Is there going to be a second line elsewhere you know in Europe? How much ammunition do we need to preposition out there? How many vehicles have to be projected? And, again, you know, if you are projecting to Europe, dozens and dozens of vehicles soft skin—or, you know, armoured vehicle, this will have an impact on the way you’re delivering training back here in Canada. You need to have the spare parts, you need to have the mechanics and so on and so forth. So it's going to be an extremely complex endeavour. But, before we do any of that, before we start projecting, you know, the people out there, we also need to get the right resource from our own government. And then we should have better indication from Parliament on how much money will be allocated to the Canadian Armed Forces to enable that mission. So that is also a critical factor.
Capt Orton: A lot of people don’t know what a brigade or battle group is. Can you explain what that looks like a little bit?
LGen Paul: A brigade is basically a formation where you assemble a certain number of units. There’s different types of brigades. You can have a brigade group, you can have a mechanized brigade group, you can have an infantry brigade, you can have an armoured brigade. And, in our case, a brigade can be anywhere between 2,500 people—but also maybe as high as 5,000 people. So there’s a lot of room, there’s a lot of space here. For instance, in a typical Canadian brigade, you will have recce elements, you will have armoured elements, you will have infantry elements. So, if you are fielding a brigade that has three infantry battalions—vice only having two—obviously, your brigades are going to be much bigger.
So in the case of Latvia, the discussion will be gravitating around that. So how many manoeuvre elements are going to be provided by which nation? And this is why, at this point, we don’t know what’s going to be the shape and the form.
Capt Orton: So we talked a little bit about international operations, but there’s also a space in domestic operations. The Army has been looking at revamping, you know, our cold weather training and Arctic Operations Training. And it seems like we’re turning our eyes a little bit towards what’s happening in the Arctic. What does that look like for the Army?
LGen Paul: The fact that the northern flank of the alliance is under a little bit of pressure right now. I mean, you can see some of these Russian aerospace incursion that have started again a few years ago, is something that had totally disappeared, you know, when the end of the Cold War is a clear indication that, you know, from a continental perspective, we need to do a better job at protecting North America. And it’s with that concept with that thought, obviously, that the Canadian Armed Forces are going to be investing substantially into NORAD modernization. But, when you talk about NORAD modernization, it’s not only about the Royal Canadian Air Force, it’s not only about the Royal Canadian Navy. If you want to assess your home sovereignty, you need to be present on the ground. Right? You need to be present out there. This is why we are suddenly looking at expanding the number, but also the scope of some of those Arctic training events so that we can do a better job at projecting ourselves up in the north.
We also have a bit of a brand—i.e. you know Canadian soldiers are great at working, you know, under winter, or you know, arctic conditions. So we need to sustain that brand. But also, let’s be honest here. Many of our young people, when they are recruited, the vast majority of them are coming from Southern Canada—that ribbon like one-hundred kilometres along the U.S. border; this is where most of us Canadians are living. Right. I guess the point I’m trying to articulate here is that it’s not because you’re Canadian, that necessarily you’re good at that type of thing. And this is why, as an Army, we need to ensure that every single one of our soldiers have the opportunity to better understand what does it mean, you know, to be able to survive into a winter into a very harsh type of environment. And the best way to do it—it’s to live it, it’s to do it, it’s to go out there in the field, learn, you know, from your senior leadership. And when you go to the Arctic, it has a lot to do with learning from the Canadian Ranger, you know, what is it that you need to do in order to survive, because when you talk about winter warfare, the one thing that I’ve always been told from the beginning with my whole career is that in the winter, the first thing you gotta do is to survive, and you fight after.
Capt Orton: That’s right.
LGen Paul: So that’s the way we should be doing it all the time. And that’s why it is so important for us to train. But also there’s an expectation from the U.S. There’s an expectation from other NATO allies that since we’re good at it, they would like us very much to be like their mentor. They would like us to be more present. So what you can certainly anticipate over the next few years is a renewed emphasis on, you know, Arctic training, there’s going to be more things being done between us and the U.S. forces that are located in Alaska, for instance. Right now you have a division, which is station in, in Alaska Element Airborne Division. And we have already started training with them. And there’s probably going to be more training events in the future with that same formation. It is something that we would like to do together, jointly.
Capt Orton: The Army is kind of going through a transition right now from a culture change perspective. And as you kind of mentioned before, the priority is our people, and we’re making changes about that. Talk to us a little bit about what that means for us.
LGen Paul: The essence of what the Canadian Armed Forces are trained to do is well captured into a recently-released document which is titled trusted to serve. And the essence of the document is basically built on two pillars: there is character, and there’s, you know, technical competence. So most of the issues that have been impacting the institution, you know, over the last few years, had very little to do with our technical expertise. The source of the issues we were facing had to do with character. And this is why, you know, we need to ensure that we have the right people in the institution who are going to be projecting the right type of values, who are going to be embracing the right type of leadership. There’s a lot of discussion right now about the importance of being inclusive, the importance of diversity, whatever might be your gender, whatever might be your sexual orientation, whatever might be your religious belief. It is basically respecting one another for what we are. I like to believe that the vast majority of our Army members are suddenly embracing that type of approach. Ensure that everybody can find, you know, a proper space into that larger family that we have as a Canadian Army. We also need to have leaders that are positive. The one thing for which we have no time whatsoever is what I like to refer to as the poison, you know, leadership. Sometimes, you know, leaders who are basically going on a bit of a power trip, without any restraints, or constraints—this is where you start having abuse of power, abuse of authority, and so on and so forth. So there’s a lot of emphasis right now on that. Just being, you know, a positive leader. Just ensuring you know, that everybody can find his or her place under the sun. The one thing that I've learned during my infantry career is that when you do a battalion march—you know, six-hundred, seven-hundred people, the rucksack, the helmet, that rifles and so on and so forth—the speed of your platoon, the speed of your company, the speed of the battalion is driven by what? Well, it’s driven, you know, by the slowest. Because we never leave anybody behind. Never. And that’s why it is so important to help one another.
You know, sometimes you may have a bit of a bad day. Maybe you have a bit of a health issue, you start, you know, your twelve kilometre march. And if, all of a sudden you faint a little bit, you know, what is it that your teammates are gonna be doing for you? Well they’re gonna take a bit of your load. And sometimes they will take your webbing, they’ll take your helmet, somebody is going to basically pull or carry, I shall say, your rucksack so that you can finish with the rest of the team. So that type of approach where we all help one another during a forced march, well we want to see that in everything we do at any time. But unfortunately, you know, we still have a few blind spots. There’s still a few areas where we need to ensure that we do a better job. And we will, but also leadership is the essentiel out there because you need to mentor. When you’re twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three years old, all of a sudden you know you’re a corporal or you’re a master corporal, you’re a second lieutenant—you’re being given additional responsibility. You need to be guided, you need to be mentored by a super sharp sergeant or super sharp warrant officer. And very often when you are in what I like to refer to as your formative years, this is where you are kind of crystallizing, you know, who you will be as a human being. And this is why you know all of us, older leaders, we have a critical responsibility to guide, to mentor, to tell our youth the do’s and don’ts. We have a critical role to play. And I must say, you know, I'm fifty-six years old. And I’m still out there, you know, asking for a piece of advice. And there’s many former bosses that I had in my career that I’m reaching out to, that I’m engaging, because I’m still looking for that mentorship piece. And I would like to say that to have such an open mind, that type of approach, is basically a human being's life journey.
Capt Orton: You know, one of the most special things I think about this experience is that process—that exact process. I had a talk with a young sergent just like a couple of days ago, and they were talking about what they had learned and kind of like the different roles different mentors have played for them. And seeing your people grow up like that, as you help them along the way and then see them become that person is such an incredible experience that sometimes you don’t get anywhere else. And you hit the nail right on the head. So, looking forward a little bit, what has you most excited about where we’re heading right now?
LGen Paul: The one thing that I keep focusing on all the time is the multinational brigade in Latvia. This is like the number one expeditionary operation for us Canadians. And more specifically, for the Canadian Army. How can we generate the right type of capability? How can we sustain the right footprint out there without impacting too much? The Army as a whole? How can we sustain that multinational brigade out there while, at the same time, remain focused on recruiting—on training young men and women who want to join the Canadian Armed Forces? How do you do that? How are you ensuring, you know, that the expeditionary operation ain’t gonna be done to the detriment of potential domestic operation—but also recruiting and force expansion you know initiative. It’s something that has to be extremely fine tuned.
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Capt Orton: You know, this whole podcast, as we’ve been recording, all I can think of is amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. And you’ve been talking logistics this whole time. So I feel like we’re ahead of the game. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast sir, I really appreciate it.
LGen Paul: Ok, thank you very much.
Capt Orton: That was Lieutenant-General Jocelyn Paul Commander of the Canadian Army. If you want to know more about how the Army is going to approach the future of command and control, check out season three. There’s some good podcasts in there and that’s one of them.
I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.
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