Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In Part Two of this two-part conversation, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW continue their dialogue with grief, loss, and bereavement therapist and Fordham University professor Kat Hurley, LCSW—exploring what grief actually looks like in the mind, body, and daily life. Kat shares powerful ways of understanding loss, including the idea that grief doesn’t shrink over time and that the real work of grief is learning how to carry it. The conversation expands into grief lit...
In Part Two of this two-part conversation, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW continue their dialogue with grief, loss, and bereavement therapist and Fordham University professor Kat Hurley, LCSW—exploring what grief actually looks like in the mind, body, and daily life. Kat shares powerful ways of understanding loss, including the idea that grief doesn’t shrink over time and that the real work of grief is learning how to carry it. The conversation expands into grief literacy, and unpacking the emotional, cognitive, and physical symptoms—like brain fog, irritability, exhaustion, and dissociation—that often make grieving people feel like they’re “going crazy." Along the way, they explore concepts like anticipatory grief, disenfranchised grief, and ambiguous loss—forms of grief that often go unrecognized or unsupported. Ultimately, this episode invites listeners to rethink their relationship with loss and mortality by reminding us that confronting grief can deepen our compassion, clarify what matters most, and help us live more fully while we’re here.
To learn more about Kat Hurley, LCSW, visit the Alis Volat Propriis Place website and connect with her on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Four book titles that Kat recommends in this episode for people facing grief, loss, and bereavement:
Bearing the Unbearable: Love, Loss, and the Heartbreaking Path of Grief by Joanne Cacciatore, PhD
It’s OK That You're Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn't Understand by Megan Devine, LPC
The Wild Edge of Sorrow: Rituals of Renewal and the Sacred Work of Grief by Francis Weller
Signs: The Secret Language of the Universe by Laura Lynne Jackson
To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com.
Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective
Subscribe, share, and review Right Here on your favorite podcast platform!
Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.
Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on
mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.
Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that
affect our relationships.
SPEAKER_01: No jargon, no
judgment, just thoughtful
conversations to help you
understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.
SPEAKER_02: Something that's so
extraordinary about you, Kat, is
this your area of expertise,
grief, loss, breathement.
And you are so dynamic and you
are so positive and you're so
quick to smile and laugh.
And you allow, at least my
experience of you is you allow
for all of these feelings to
exist without killing us, you
know?
Yeah.
What do you have to say about
that?
SPEAKER_01: Explain your explain
yourself, please.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
Okay.
So my my like basic nature of
personality is I'm a tigger.
And I think people expect that
Eeyores do grief work, not
Tiggers.
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna ask you
to explain that because we don't
do jargon.
Even Winnie the Pooh jargon, we
don't do.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so in Winnie
the Pooh, Eeyore is the one
who's always depressed.
And Tigger is Tiggers who
bounce.
They're like this all the time,
they're excited for everything,
and they're ready to go with
whatever it is.
And that's just sort of my
default personality.
So I feel like that about grief.
I am excited about the work, it
energizes me.
And I get excited to meet people
who are deep in grief because I
know that I have some tools that
can help.
And part of what I feel like is
okay, I have seen the place you
are.
I haven't seen your place
because nobody can completely
understand someone else's grief.
But I've seen a whole lot of
grief and I know a lot of things
that can help.
So I get excited to partner
them, to companion them on this
journey, to show them all of the
parts of grief that mitigate the
pain because grief is incredibly
painful, but it can also be
transformative.
It can also be a way to build
strength.
It can also be a way to build
connection.
And so for all of those things,
I get excited to help someone
walk their journey to just walk
with them and see what the
Easter eggs are going to be
along the way with the pain,
because the pain is a given,
right?
Like the idea that we're gonna
get over it is so 1980 and we
don't take that anymore.
But instead, I have two kinds of
analogies that I really love
that I think clear it up.
And one is these ideas that
people think that grief gets
smaller over time, like that
it'll just start to shrink.
That doesn't happen.
I'm so sorry.
I wish it did, but that's not
it.
What happens is grief stays
exactly the same size, and over
time we learn to rebuild
ourselves and our lives around
it.
And my other favorite thing,
which I tell my students, I
think on the first day of class,
is grief is like being handed a
dirty, jagged bag of rocks.
Somebody hands it to you, and
then it's just yours.
You get to carry it for the rest
of your life.
Congratulations.
And the rocks are cutting up
your arms at first, and they're
all your hands are dirty and
scraped.
So you figure, well, I gotta
wash them and then they'll they
won't get my clothes all dirty.
So you wash them and then you
realize, well, if I polish the
edges a little bit, then they'll
stop cutting me.
Okay, what my arms and my back
and my neck are hurting from the
way I'm carrying them.
Okay, well, maybe if I put them
in a backpack, then it'll sort
of equalize the weight and I
won't be hunched over and won't
cut my arms.
That's the work of grief.
It's figuring out how to carry
it so that it hurts you the
least and that you can move
forward with it.
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
Listening to you describe, I
love the backpack analogy.
I remember that from the first
day of class.
But listening to you describe
how grief is processed and isn't
processed, it remains exactly
the same size.
I was hit by this, you know, we
talked about the waves of grief.
I was just hit by the loss of my
childhood best friend, which
happened years ago.
It happened in 2018.
And listening to you talk just
now so beautifully, so openly
about it, I I realized for me
right now in this moment, the
loss is right there.
And I'm really sad about it
still.
And what I did before he went
into hospice, I just flew across
the country, he was in San
Diego, and just spent two days
in the hospital with him.
He couldn't talk, it was brain
cancer.
I brought in Pink Floyd music,
which he used to love, we used
to listen to in the dark when we
were like 11, 12, 13.
Bagels, pizza, junk food, like
that stuff.
Just to be with him, just to
share space for those two days
was enough.
It was and it was a way to say
goodbye.
So I guess that would have been
preparatory.
Preparatory grief.
SPEAKER_00: For him, it would
have been preparatory.
For you, it would have been
anticipatory grief.
Anticipatory grief is any grief
that happens before an expected
loss.
So this is the type of grief
that happens for pe loved ones
of people who are dying on
hospice.
They know it's coming, they
don't know exactly when.
And what's challenging about
anticipatory grief is the
vacillation between hope that
the person will live longer or
there will be a miracle, or, you
know, and the other thing is I
always leave space for miracles.
Just because, like, I was
working in medicine in a
hospital, in end-of-life work, I
mean, that's a great place.
Miracles do happen.
But sometimes the miracles that
happen are not the miracles that
people are praying for.
Sometimes the miracle is that
the person holds on until a
birthday or a graduation or a
special event, or holds on until
their child is able to make it
from Europe or something like
that.
Sometimes that's the miracle,
not that the person
spontaneously becomes better,
although I wouldn't say that
never happens.
But sometimes changing the
expectation for what a miracle
would look like, changing the
expectation for what a good
death looks like.
SPEAKER_02: The idea of the
concept of a good death, I feel
like is so foreign to so many of
us.
But what is a good death?
What does that look like?
A beautiful death.
SPEAKER_00: Well, that certainly
depends person to person.
I think there's a little
stricter ideas about that in
some Asian cultures because they
do delve into what a good death
is and what a bad death is.
But for us in our country, we
haven't codified it in any way.
So I think it's very personal.
If it's for me, a good death
would be one where I would have
enough advanced warning to be
able to give all of my I love
you's, all of my I'm sorry's and
all of my goodbyes.
For me, one of the things that I
love doing is planning bon
voyage parties.
So when someone has enough time
before their death to be able to
do a celebration of life while
they're still alive, that can be
an incredibly powerful thing.
It's a space for so much love
and appreciation and connection
and apology and having
conversations that really need
to be had, and that work can be
so incredibly beautiful.
For some people, a good death is
in their home.
For some people, a good death is
in a hospital.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_00: For some people,
it's quick.
For some people, it's with their
families around.
For some people, it's
non-medicalized and it's in
their home with soft music
playing, with their loved ones
all around them.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_00: For some people,
it's a lot of physical touch.
For some people, it's very good
pain control with some a
spiritual advisor or leader
there to help guide them as they
see fit.
So it really depends on the
person, but I think it's
something so valuable for each
of us to think about
individually, but also talk
about in our families because we
don't want to talk about that
till we can't ask anymore and
it's too late.
So finding out what would that
be for you?
I mean, if you if you knew you
were gonna die in a month, how
would you want that to go?
Where would you want to be?
Who would you want to be there?
What would you like us to do?
Is there music you'd want?
What would you like the
atmosphere to be?
Would you want it to be, you
know, peaceful and sort of dark,
candlelit, quiet, or would you
want it to be a raucous party
with music playing?
Strobe lights.
SPEAKER_01: Glow stick.
You would definitely have a
rave.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm thinking as you're as you're
talking about this, that
question, I don't want to ask
that question when I know I only
have a month left.
I feel like that should be a
question we should ask ourselves
now because it will it'll impact
how we actually live our life
day to day.
And we can actually start to
fulfill maybe some of those
dreams and maintain some of
those relationships and maybe
kind of live more as the person
we want to die as.
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
And I think I don't know if it
was Marcus Aurelius, so forgive
me, I'm but I'm not great on the
correct reference, but the idea
of memento more, remember death,
at having something every day
that reminds you, you know, that
you come face to face with your
own mortality and acknowledge
it, actually makes life so much
sweeter.
I mean, people used to ask me, I
worked in adult hospice and
palliative care and pediatric
hospice and palliative care.
And that's the kind of job where
like if you're at a dinner party
and people ask you what you do,
it just sort of stops the
conversation and its tracks, and
people have reactions ranging
from like horror to just like,
oh I can, they actually back up,
like, oh, like they're gonna
catch it.
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um but what's truly
amazing about the work is it is
the most life-affirming work I
have ever done.
Being in the space of death and
loss reminds me every day how
lucky I am to have another one.
And it truly makes me live more.
And working like it's such a
gift and a privilege to be able
to work with families in this
liminal space between life and
death.
It very much distills what
matters and what doesn't.
So being in this career has been
a really big gift to me to help
me remember what matters and to
really just grab life by the
balls and live it because none
of us are guaranteed a tomorrow.
We nobody knows when it's gonna
happen.
And so it feels so much more
urgent to me, faith viewing
death being part of death often,
to live out loud, to live big
and huge and make bold choices
and chase dreams now and not to
let fear get in the way because
none of us are promised
anything.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
Kat, I could listen to you all
day.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd like to
go over a little bit of grief
literacy, just some
terminologies people might not
know.
Yeah, but I'd also like to talk
about grief symptoms because a
lot of people are not aware of
those.
So, what should I start with?
SPEAKER_01: Why don't we talk
about grief symptoms?
Yeah, the symptoms, how it shows
up.
Yeah, I think it'd be really
great for people to understand
what's right.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
Excellent.
Okay.
So a lot of times when people
who are in acute grief, I would
say this is like the first three
months where there's a lot of
shock involved, a lot of
overwhelm, and come to me
looking for grief counseling,
they will tell me they feel like
they're going crazy.
So, what's awesome about what
I'm about to say is you can tell
grievers that they are not going
nuts.
It is not you.
You're not losing your mind.
This is grief.
So, what am I talking about?
So, of course, grief comes with
the emotions that we know,
right?
It's gonna have incredible
sadness, despair, longing,
sometimes depression, but also
anger, guilt, regret, fury,
different types of self-blame,
blame of others, reframing
things in different ways.
So, all of those types of
emotions can certainly come up.
But also, because grief takes up
so much cognitive and emotional
energy, people's bandwidths in
grief are really low.
So suddenly people will notice
they're very irritable and
they're snapping at people that
they don't want to snap at,
their kids, their husband, their
sister, whoever.
And they feel like they just
they just can't help it and
they're snapping.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_00: The space that you
have in your heart and your mind
are so full of the grief that
you don't have space for other
stuff.
The other thing I hear a lot is
that people have a lot less
tolerance for bullshit because
their bandwidth is so low.
Because also, people say really
idiotic stuff to grievers.
They any any sentence to someone
who's grieving that starts well
with, well, at least just stop.
Don't finish that sentence.
It's gonna be helpful.
This is some verbal diarrhea.
And that's about the person
who's speaking's discomfort with
the loss.
SPEAKER_04: You're right.
SPEAKER_00: You can have another
child.
Well, at least he was young, you
can find someone else.
None of these things are
helpful.
Don't say these things.
But that's people's own
insecurity with dealing with
this grief and this loss.
So people don't have the
bandwidth for that.
They also don't have the
bandwidth for normal, dumb stuff
they would have had the
bandwidth for.
Example, at work, somebody's at
the water cooler complaining
about, like, ugh, and my kid
wouldn't do blah, blah, blah, or
my husband forgot to get
blueberries.
Okay, you have a husband or your
child is healthy.
So when people start to complain
about their daily normal stuff,
that could this can cause
incredible, like, fury and just
feelings about how unfair it is
that these people get to
complain about something like
that and your life is blown up.
So that type of irritability is
very, very normal.
But also with that, there's an
isolation that happens because
you are now othered.
Your experience of some kind of
off-time death, like if your
child died or your parent died
sooner than anticipated,
something like that, a sibling
died, then that makes people
nervous.
And since they haven't
experienced it, then they're in
their bubble and you're over
there in yours, just being
irritated at the nonsense that's
coming out of their mouths,
which is incredibly unhelpful.
Or things like, well, it was
God's will, or God needed
another angel.
All these types of things are
not helpful.
They are trying to make people
feel better about their own fear
of grief, not the griever.
They are not helping.
So if you really want to help a
griever, someone who's grieving
in your life, the best thing you
can do is check in and let them
know that you love them and you
don't require anything of them.
Don't tell them, well, tell, let
me know if you need anything.
Good God.
These people have no space in
their brain at all to try to
figure out one more thing for
you to do.
So it would be most helpful if
you want to help physically, if
you're in proximity to the
person who's grieving that you
care about, offer them three
things.
Can I door dash you some food?
Can I pick your kids up from
school and bring them home?
Can I walk your dog?
Can I pick up your dry cleaning?
Finite clear offers are the most
helpful for people in early
grief so that they don't have to
think.
So that can be something that's
really, really helpful.
But other symptoms of grief that
people don't necessarily know
are clumsiness, a lower immune
threshold.
So people get sick more often,
more twisting ankles, stubbing
toes, a lot of brain fog,
forgetfulness.
Like somebody will tell you
something three times and you
just can't remember it.
SPEAKER_02: Brain fog as grief
as a grief symptom.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
And so people think they're
going nuts.
They're like, oh God, now my
person died, and also I'm
getting early onset Alzheimer's.
unknown: Wow.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you need
to check with a neurologist, but
for grief, it is really normal
for brain fog.
Don't know where you put your
keys, can't find your glasses,
keys are in your pocket and you
look for them for 20 minutes.
Phone's in your hand, can't find
it.
All of that is very, very normal
in grief.
Another thing that happens a lot
in grief is some dissociation.
When people hear dissociation,
they think like, oh no, you
know, Sybil type stuff.
But we all dissociate pretty
normally in day-to-day life.
So what I'm talking about from a
in a grief context is somebody
is driving to work and they get
to work and they have no memory
of that drive.
They don't remember how they got
there.
They know they did it, right?
But they don't really remember
anything about the drive in the
morning.
And that's a and that's also a
type of protection for us.
It might be that that brain
needs a dosing of not grief.
So that's another thing that can
happen.
Having issues with sound, a lot
of people describe feeling like
sounds are too loud.
They just it almost a misophonia
of grief.
So that can be another thing.
Feeling overwhelmed by too much
peopling, even for extroverts,
they might be over overwhelmed
by more social interaction,
palpitations, faster heartbeats,
a mild panicky reaction.
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm having a
panic attack, that kind of a
thing.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a panic
attack.
And that that can also be a very
normal grief response as well.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm wondering,
is it it sounds like is is there
a difference between grief and
depression?
Because a lot of these symptoms
that you're talking about, they
align a lot with what we see as
depression and not just the hey,
I'm sad.
These are all of those other
kind of like sub-symptoms that
we see of depression that people
don't quite understand.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
So the the way to determine if
it's and and some grief can
cause a clinical depression, and
that does happen sometimes.
But generally speaking, the
clinical depression comes with a
feeling of worthlessness.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: The feeling of
worthlessness is generally not
present in grief.
The grief is very specific to
the loss.
So that feeling of worthlessness
and hopelessness in a broad
sense, not related to how do I
do life without this person, but
just general hopelessness, is
also more depression than it is
grief.
Now, a griever can also meet the
clinical threshold for a
depression diagnosis, but often
it's it's sort of longing-based
grief.
And this the symptoms will show
up and they they can be
diagnosed as grief, but they are
also normal depression, which is
not a pathology after grief.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
That is such an important
distinction.
Thank you.
And I I I I want people
listening to this to really like
to hear that that it's it's not
necessarily a depression.
It's not tied to this feeling of
worthlessness.
It is it's from what you're
saying, it's an entirely
appropriate and natural
response.
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's and we
just really want to normalize
this for people.
Like that feeling of going crazy
and the feeling of being
depressed, like the exhaustion
from grief is real.
Like this is bone-tired soul
exhaustion.
It is not the same as being
tired, and it has no
relationship to how much the
person is sleeping or how
deeply.
Feeling you wake up and there's
an elephant on you, and the
elephant just never leaves.
And getting up to take a shower
and like brush your teeth is
exhausting for people in grief.
That is like a whole marathon.
And that is okay.
That is the exhaustion of grief.
And almost all of these grief
symptoms will subside with time,
but it can be very helpful for
people feeling them, feeling
nuts and like their body has
taken over and you know, they
don't have any control to work
with a grief counselor to help
normalize all of these things
and to get them to have a
routine, to sort of co-create a
routine to get back into their
day-to-day as they can tolerate
it with small, small steps, not
big steps, and not having the
expectations of ourselves that
we'll be able to bounce back
because we have to recreate the
world.
We're now at the before and
after.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And we have to
recreate the after.
And that takes a little while.
It takes a lot of intentional
work and an enormous amount of
energy.
And it's really uncomfortable.
I mean, it also has physical
symptoms, headaches, stomach
aches.
I mean, particularly in
children, there's a lot of
somatic stuff that happens.
But appetite changes, sleep
changes, all those types of
things are very normal symptoms
of normal grief.
SPEAKER_02: So good to know
that.
SPEAKER_01: That is, it's
extremely helpful.
Yeah.
And Kat, you also said that you
you wanted to talk about some of
the vocabulary around the
literacy around grief.
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
Okay, so we talked a little bit
about anticipatory grief, the
grief when we know someone is
going to die.
Or this could also be, you know,
the in in a divorce, you know
the divorce is coming and it's
going to be finalized.
So that's another situation that
where it could come up.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And knowing with
anticipatory grief, there can be
very wide swings between all the
feelings, even more than when
you're in a post-loss grief,
because you're holding on to the
hope.
And that pendulum swing from the
hope to the actuality of the
loss can be very, very painful.
Another grief that I think it's
super important to mention is
disenfranchised grief.
This is grief that society
doesn't view as worthy of
getting the same support as
other grief.
So, like if someone loses a
spouse to a long battle with
cancer, those people get a lot
of community support, all the
casseroles, right?
But if somebody loses a child to
a substance use disorder, the
support looks different.
There's a taboo around that
loss.
There's a lot of judgment, even
more isolation for the survivors
of that kind of a loss.
They're not getting the
casseroles.
People don't know what to say.
Even if people are going up to
the cancer loss, And saying, Oh,
I'm so sorry, and well, they're
not suffering.
To somebody who lost a child to
a substance, they don't get
that.
They're even more isolated.
And that's the
disenfranchisement.
Similarly, with say somebody was
married for 20 years, got
divorced, and then had another
family, and their previous
partner with whom they've had
children was remarried and they
died.
Well, the new wife is going to
get the casseroles and the
support, but the other person
spent 20 years and made children
with them, and they are not
getting the same type of social
engagement for support in their
loss that other people would
get.
A lot of times, violent deaths
also are disenfranchised because
people don't know how to speak
about them.
There's such a taboo about
assaults, murders, war,
political deaths, those types of
yeah, suicide.
Absolutely.
And there's there's such a taboo
about talking about it that
those grievers get even less
support because people don't
know what to say.
And they instead of saying
something, they say nothing,
which is crazy because a lot of
people say, Well, I don't I
don't want to make it worse, or
I don't want to make them think
about it when they're not
thinking about it.
Okay.
Everybody who's had a loss is
always thinking about it.
You are not going to bring up
something that that is not
already on their mind.
And the other thing is,
particularly with a suicide loss
or a murder when it's the a
child, parents say they just
want to hear their child's name.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: They want to hear
it.
So being able to support people
who have an even more painful,
complicated loss, like a
suicide, substance use, murder,
by saying their name is a
beautiful way to support people
you care about in their grief.
How are you feeling about Tom?
I was just thinking about this
one time when he came over to
play with Joshua and they made
their exploding volcanoes for
the science fair, and it really
made me smile.
So I'm just thinking about you.
No need to answer.
SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
SPEAKER_00: Things like that.
SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
SPEAKER_00: Other
disenfranchised griefs are pets.
For a lot of people, pets are
primary emotional social
support.
A lot of people prefer pets to
people.
And when there's a pet loss,
you're not getting off work for
that.
And people are not sending, you
know, condolence cards and
casseroles are like, oh, that's
that's really sad.
And they move on.
But this for many people is like
a child.
There's a few more that are
maybe less obvious, like
infertility.
Infertility is a huge grief for
many people who are desperate
for a family.
And we don't talk about it.
There's there's shame associated
with that.
And we're not giving that couple
support.
We're certainly not giving the
male partner support.
SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
SPEAKER_00: There's definitely a
differential between the way we
support women and infertility
and men and not talking about
it, not offering support, no
casseroles, you know,
miscarriage, still birth, same
thing, not happening.
No big overt ceremony, no
funeral, no ritual.
Ritual in grief and loss is
incredibly important.
It is so powerful for
processing, but also for meaning
making, which is a really
important part of grief work
that usually happens after the
grief has been worked on
significantly.
That's not something we want
anyone to jump to right away,
because if you skip the
feelings, they're going to come
back and bite you in the ass.
And that's a really important
piece of grief of doing the work
is actually feeling it and
talking about it with somebody
you trust, being able to go
through all of those different
feelings.
That's a way to actualize the
loss, to really be able to
accept that the loss has
happened.
Meaning making is a part of
reconstruction.
That kind of happens later once
you have accepted the loss, but
also once you've started to
change your life in the face of
the loss, your roles, your
responsibility, your
connections, all of those
things.
After that has been stabilized
and recreated, then there
certainly is an opportunity for
meaning making in loss, which a
lot of people find as a pathway
to resilience.
And that happens with all
different types of grief.
So that's disenfranchised grief.
And then the other loss that I
think it's important to talk
about is ambiguous loss.
This term was coined by a
brilliant woman named Pauline
Boss.
This is a type of loss where the
person is physically present but
psychologically absent.
That would look like they're
there, but they have Alzheimer's
and they cannot remember
anybody.
So their body is there, or Louis
bodies, frontal temporal
dementia.
They're not themselves.
Right.
They have different personality.
Could also happen with a
traumatic brain injury.
SPEAKER_02: That's what Robin
Williams had, right?
SPEAKER_01: Louis body dementia.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
I'm thinking people in comas or
in life support in that, in that
sense, right?
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
And it's ambiguous.
You don't know if they're going
to come out of it or not.
You don't know if they're going
to come back to themselves or or
when they will recognize you or
not recognize you.
Another example of this is
substance use.
When a person you love is using
substances, they are not, they
might be physically there, but
they are not mentally,
emotionally the person that you
know and love.
And that kind of loss is
ambiguous because you never
know.
Are they going to come back?
If they come back, what are
they, are they going to come
back all the way or just a
little bit?
Right.
SPEAKER_01: And that's a living
loss, right?
And that's like a living loss,
which is so hard.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
And a lot of people, I might
have been boss herself who
called this type of loss
sustained torture.
The other way it can be is that
the person is psychologically
present but physically absent.
So this is someone who's missing
an action in a war, but also
someone who's incarcerated,
somebody who has been captured
by ice.
They're so psychologically
present.
And the belief, the hope is that
they are still alive somewhere,
but you are not able to see them
physically.
So that can cause a really
complex kind of grief because
you never know when it's going
to end.
And the hope is there and the
fear is there all the time, just
kind of vacillating up and down.
And again, nobody's sending
casseroles for this stuff.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
unknown: Wow.
SPEAKER_02: This is such
essential information.
I can't believe I'm so grateful
we're having this conversation,
but I can't believe more people
aren't having these
conversations.
Exactly.
And why aren't we taught, you
know, the these these basic,
these are rudiments of the human
experience.
And that has processed what we
go through.
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's in
uh, you know, as we wind down,
Kat, and I think I think we want
to have you back, please,
because we could Yeah, I feel
like we could probably talk
about this repeatedly and just
for for hours on on end.
Because this is this is a human
experience.
This is everybody deals with
this.
And I keep coming back to this,
you know, in existential theory.
It's you know, I keep thinking
of the the the four things we
get caught up on, and death is
always in that, right?
We have fear of purpose,
loneliness, responsibility, and
death.
Right.
And it's not linear, and none of
this is linear.
And I I heard you say multiple
times, yeah, death is messy.
This process, grief is messy.
You don't get over it, right?
SPEAKER_00: It just keeps it
perpetuates.
You grow around it and with it,
but you don't get over it.
It's just part of you now.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I think also
there's there's two more things
before we end that I think are
really important to mention.
SPEAKER_04: Please.
SPEAKER_00: One is grief
compounds.
So all grief is connected.
So any loss that you've ever had
is related to any new loss.
So often people will have a new
loss and they will be surprised
by what comes up.
Like they'll be watching a
Subaru commercial and they will
break down about their dog that
died eight years ago, even
though it was their grandmother
that just died.
That is perfectly normal.
And that is because all grief is
connected and every grief you
have compounds.
It makes the grief a little bit
heavier overall.
And anything that's unprocessed
from all these previous griefs
will come back and hit you full
force on the next one, which
it's what, which is why it's so
important to talk about this
stuff, even though it's
difficult.
That really having a safe place
to just talk about how it feels
and unpack a lot of the
complexities of the relationship
with someone who's gone, but
also the relationship between
all of your griefs, how you
respond, have you what your
grief history is, have you
responded in the past and why
and what worked and what didn't
work.
So I think that's also really
important to know is that grief
always compounds.
You're never dealing with one
grief, you're dealing with all
of your grief history when you
experience a new loss.
The other thing that's really
important is secondary losses.
We don't think about these all
the time, but secondary losses
are all the losses that come
from the primary loss.
So if a person loses their
spouse, that's the primary loss.
Secondary losses, losing a
second income, losing a
co-parent, losing a best friend,
losing the hopes and dreams of a
future, losing the person who
did the gutters and did the oil
changes.
All of these things that you
don't realize in the moment,
these are the things that often
sneak up on people and give them
what I think is like a jack in
the box of grief, where they
aren't thinking about it.
It's not a place or a date where
they expect to be hit in the
face.
But because it's all these
cascades of secondary loss that
they didn't even realize, those
are the ones that sometimes hurt
the worst as people learn to
live with their grief.
And they will pop up, and that
is perfectly normal.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Kat, that's that's
what resonates with me a lot,
you know, and I think back to
the losses I've experienced and
just how it's it's later, it's
years later or down the road,
and and just it and it's the
thought that goes through my
mind of this would have been
that moment that I sent this
thing to this person.
SPEAKER_02: Who's no longer
here?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
And I think about you know, so I
lost my mom in April of this
year to cancer, and it's been
it's been quite a process for
me.
And then and then talking
through a lot of this and and
knowing what I know about grief
and loss, going through like the
the logical part of my mind of
like, oh, this, but there's so
many times now in building our
group practice and doing this
podcast and kind of like trying
to put this out there that I'm
like, oh, this is the moment I
would have sent this and gotten
that feedback, or this is the
moment like it would have just
been nice to share that.
And I think that's that to me is
like it does, and it suddenly
comes flooding back, and it's
like, oh man, okay, those are
the those are those moments that
that's just that's just going to
exist now.
Like that feeling will exist.
So yeah, I'm I'm going to
acquaint myself with it and move
through it.
But yeah, oh me too.
SPEAKER_02: There is one thing
I'll share, and so much of what
you shared today resonated with
me.
I run a support group.
I've talked about it in other
podcast episodes on Saturdays
over Zoom, and it started during
the pandemic with literally six
people, and now we're up to like
sometimes we have 51, 52 people
every Saturday.
And one of the longtime
attendees got terminal cancer
diagnosis, and I had him he told
me, I don't I don't know, I've
got maybe six months, maybe
less, maybe more, you know.
So I asked him to lead one of
the meetings and one of the
groups, and he led it so
beautifully.
He basically shared a poem that
he'd written about his own
impending death.
And then the the rest of the
support group just ended up
being a living memorial to him,
where people responded in real
time not only to what he shared,
but just to the impact he'd made
and the memories they had of
him.
And it was such a privilege to
be a part of it.
And by the end, people weren't
sobbing, people were just
elated.
They were so happy that you know
they got to tell him all these
things before he died, and that
he he did die, you know, he he
died a few months later.
Um but I'll always treasure that
experience, and it reminds me of
what you've shared with us
today, which is like, hey, deal
with this stuff, face it, lean
in, express appreciation,
express whatever you have to say
to somebody.
SPEAKER_00: It's heartbreaking
to think that people stop
reaching out to people who are
experiencing loss because just
reach out, say something, let
them know they don't have to
respond, but like just telling
them I'm thinking about you.
Or I'm thinking about the person
if you knew them.
Yeah I'm I'm thinking about your
mom and I miss you, I love you,
I'm here.
That's it.
No response necessary.
But the connection is what
soothes our broken hearts in
grief.
SPEAKER_02: Connection is the
antidote for so much of it.
Is the symptoms and the
struggles that we talk about,
right?
Um not only in this episode, but
but yeah, throughout the the
podcast.
SPEAKER_01: Kat, thank you so
much for joining us today.
And we we definitely want to
have you back, and you always
have a place here with us.
Thank you.
Truly.
SPEAKER_00: I also thought I
could recommend a couple books
for people who are maybe
interested in learning.
SPEAKER_01: That would be great,
and we can link we can link to
them as well.
SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
Okay, so a couple of my favorite
books are Bearing the Unbearable
by Joanne Cacciatore.
Excellent book on just dealing
with grief.
It's okay to not be okay.
I don't remember the author of
that book, but it's an excellent
book.
SPEAKER_02: I know that one.
I love that one.
SPEAKER_00: The Wild Edge of
Sorrow by Francis Weller, a lot
about ritual, really phenomenal
stuff.
And then finally, for people who
are into signs, there's a book
called Signs by Laura Lynn
Jackson, who is a psychic.
When I first meet with a
griever, if they mention signs
to me at all, I wish I had
signs, I want to have signs,
I've had a sign.
I usually start by giving them
the book signs and bearing the
unbearable and going from there.
So if you're interested in
reading a little bit more, those
are great places to start.
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys for
having me on.
It's always a pleasure to hang
out with the two of you.
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening
to Lumen.
If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage
you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think
would appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation
designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW,
and I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.
Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.
Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and
is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.
If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact
local emergency services or a
trusted mental health
professional.