The Failure Gap | A Conversation With Carice Anderson, Author & Executive Coach

At Karrikins Group, we work alongside leaders to close the gap between great ideas and real results by combining business expertise with social science to help teams align on how to deliver together - driving better outcomes and stronger connections.

In this episode of the Failure Gap, host Julie Williamson, PhD, engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Carice Anderson, author of "Intelligence Isn't Enough." They explore the importance of understanding oneself, building relationships, and navigating high-performing environments. Carice shares her journey from her education at Harvard Business School to her career at McKinsey, Deloitte, and beyond, emphasizing the value of aligning work with personal values and the power of connectedness.

Episode Takeaways

• Understanding oneself is crucial for success
• Building relationships is key in high-performing environments
• Aligning work with personal values enhances impact
• Connectedness is essential in both personal and professional life
• Education is a tool to transcend barriers
• Excellence is achieved through collaboration
• Navigating different cultures requires adaptability
• Personal branding is important for introverts
• Psychological safety fosters team success
• Deadlines and accountability drive completion

If you would like to connect with Carice Anderson outside of this episode, connect with her on LinkedIn, learn more about her on her website here, or snag your own copy of the book, "Intelligence Isn't Enough."
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Creators and Guests

Host

Julie Williamson, PhD

Julie Williamson, PhD is the CEO and a Managing Partner at Karrikins Group, a Denver-based, global-serving business consultancy. Author, Keynote Speaker, and Host of The Failure Gap Podcast, Julie is a leading voice in how alignment can transform leaders and organizations.

Guest

Carice Anderson

Carice is passionate about empowering others and democratizing access to the unwritten rules of success in high-performing environments. Her goal is to unlock people’s potential and increase their impact and fun at work. Carice released her 1st book - Intelligence Isn't Enough in South Africa and the UK under the Jonathan Ball Publishers Imprint. Her book was re-released under the Berrett-Koehler Publishers imprint and distributed by Penguin Random House in October 2022. The paperback, ebook and audiobook (narrated by her) are available on Amazon and wherever you get your books. In the book, Carice helps professionals understand themselves more fully, build better relationships and have more fun and more impact at work. She shares experiences and lessons learned from a) her education at Harvard Business School and her career at McKinsey & Company and Deloitte, b) her freelance work with Bain & Company and Google and c) the careers of approximately 30 black professionals she interviewed who have worked in Africa, the USA and Europe in the fields of private equity, entrepreneurship, technology, consulting, healthcare, financial services and non-profit. She has presented insights from her book to blue-chip organizations such as Google, Bain & Company, McKinsey & Company, Biogen, Bloomberg, JP Morgan Chase, Accenture and Kraft-Heinz, just to name a few. At McKinsey & Company, Carice managed a leadership development program for early career professionals as a Professional Development Manager. Carice has also worked for top companies such as Deloitte and Korn Ferry. She relocated back to the USA (Atlanta) after living in South Africa for 10 years with her husband Fungayi. She is a Director in HR for an asset management firm and she holds an MBA from Harvard Business School and a Bachelor of Science in Marketing from The University of Alabama (Roll Tide!). In June 2024, Carice received her Executive Coaching Diploma from Emory University and in late 2024, Carice launched an online course based on her book. On a more personal note, she enjoys traveling, massages and she is obsessed with mangoes, chocolate and laughter. Carice loves to stay connected so please reach out to her on LinkedIn, Instagram and TikTok at @CariceAnderson. To learn more about Carice, please go to her website at cariceanderson.com

What is The Failure Gap ?

The Failure Gap podcast is hosted by Julie Williamson, Ph.D., the CEO and a Managing Partner at Karrikins Group, a Denver-based, global-serving business consultancy. Julie delves into the critical space between agreement and alignment - where even the best ideas falter without decisive action. Through candid conversations with a diverse mix of leaders, this podcast explores both the successes and failures that shape the journey of leadership. Featuring visionary leaders from companies of all sizes, from billion-dollar giants to mid-market innovators, to scrappy start-ups, The Failure Gap uncovers the real-life challenges of transforming ideas into impactful outcomes. Tune in to learn how top leaders bridge the gap and drive meaningful progress in their organizations.

Speaker 1 (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Failure Gap, where we talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people and today we're joined by Carice Anderson. Carice is passionate about empowering others and democratizing access to the unwritten rules of success in high-performing environments and unlocking people's potential. In her book, Intelligence Isn't Enough, which I love the title of, she helps professionals understand themselves more fully.

and build relationships while having more fun and more impact at work. She shares her experiences and lessons learned from her education at Harvard Business School, her career at McKinsey and Deloitte, as well as her freelance work with Bain & Company and Google. And she shares the careers and stories of approximately 30 Black professionals who she interviewed who have worked in Africa, the US, and Europe in the fields of private equity, entrepreneurship, technology, consulting, health care, financial services, and nonprofit.

What a great sweep of experiences to be able to share with people. Carice, thank you for the book and welcome to the Failure Gap.

Speaker 2 (01:04)
Thank you so much, Julie, for having me. I'm really excited about having this conversation with you.

Speaker 1 (01:08)
Yeah, glad to be here and would love it if we could just start our conversation with you sharing with our audience a little bit about your leadership journey. What brought you to where you are today as an author and an experienced professional in all of these different spaces?

Speaker 2 (01:24)
to start out by talking about how I grew up and how I think that informs my leadership style. I come from a very Christian background. My whole family has always been very deep, deeply involved in church. I went to Catholic school from kindergarten through 12th grade. So think I was getting a lot of talk about values and treating people a certain way, not only at home, but also at school and at church. And so I think that really does inform.

the way that I show up and I'm a very values driven person and everything that I do, I filter it through my values. Does this violate my values? Does this somehow infringe upon them or make me compromise? And so I think a lot of my values driven leadership is because of how I grew up and the family I'm from and the community I grew up in. I think I grew up in a very close knit family. So, you're just there to support people. And I think I try to support people in our.

I appreciate people supporting me. And then the third thing I'll say just from a growing up standpoint was, education was something that was very much emphasized in my home. My parents grew up in a segregated Birmingham, Alabama. And I think they saw education as the way to transcend race and to transcend poverty. And so that was something that was really driven home to me. I think also kind of adjacent to that is this idea of excellence. So that covers, I'd say the first.

You know 21 years of my life I think in terms of my career always talk about it in four phases the first phase is you know right out of undergrad. was you know the first person in my family to work in business to work in to major in a business subject even in university so I was very lost and I kind of up floating around and I ended up with some good company names on my. You know I worked at Arthur Anderson which for the those that are longer in the tooth on the line that was one of the.

There used to be the big five accounting firms along with Deloitte, KPMG, PwC, and E and Y. Anderson was one of them that collapsed while I was there and I ended up at Deloitte. Still wasn't feeling like this is the right thing for me. And then the second phase is after I went to Harvard Business School, got my MBA and was, you know, I went back to Deloitte, but I eventually ended up going to work in public schools and I worked there for three years and I absolutely loved it. And I thought I would do it forever. And then in the midst of that, you know,

We were speaking a second ago about life taking turns. started dating my now husband who was living in South Africa. So I moved to South Africa after we got married and I always say that's the third phase of my career. worked at McKinsey and corn fairy and did some contract work for Bain and for, for Google as well. So, and then I, I moved back to the U S to 2021 and I've been here for almost almost a little over four years now. And I've been at BlackRock since I came back to the U S and so I always say that's the

the fourth phase of my career, but every phase has brought me closer to knowing who I am, what my strengths are, what I think I uniquely bring to the table. And it's got me closer to the work that I really am passionate about, which is helping people unlock themselves and helping teams unlock themselves and drive for a greater sense of purpose and meaning and impact for not only for themselves, but for their clients and their customers.

Speaker 1 (04:39)
I think that's such a great call to action for anyone to really think about how is the work that I do values aligned and how do I have that impact and that purpose in how I show up every day. Absolutely. That's what's really exciting about where your career has led you and some of the contributions that you're making now. I know you've written a book and that's a great accomplishment. Congratulations on that.

Speaker 2 (05:03)
Thank

you so much.

Speaker 1 (05:04)
Yeah, I'm curious because we were speaking a little before about the fact that a lot of people are in the failure gap when it comes to writing a book. A lot of people think I really should do that and they don't get past agreement to alignment and getting it done. I'm just curious for you, what was the provocation? What was the push to really lean into the opportunity to put your thoughts and beliefs and ideas down on paper and share your experiences with the world in that way? Because it's big effort.

Speaker 2 (05:33)
100%. I have to turn my camera just a little bit. There's my book right there in the corner, y'all.

Speaker 1 (05:37)
There

it is. I love it.

Speaker 2 (05:40)
A

little shout out to the book. Yeah. I will start with, think, where the spark was really lit when I was working at McKinsey and Johannesburg. You know, was meeting a lot of Black professionals who worked at McKinsey, but also Black professionals who worked in other industries. And I was really surprised that many of them were struggling in the same way that I struggled when I came out of undergrad in 1998.

And for the sole reason that when I came out of undergrad, the internet was five pages long and you could get through it in about seven minutes. So if you didn't have people in your network who could answer your questions and give you the guidance, there was nowhere else for you to go. And so fast forward 14 years later, I'm working at McKinsey and I'm like, why are these children struggling the same way I was struggling 14 years ago? And I've started to realize if you don't know the questions you should be asking, you don't know.

to access this treasure trove of information that's out there in the form of social media and online courses and online books, et cetera. And so that was the first, I think, realization I thought that I had. And I thought, I can share something with these young people so they don't make the same mistakes I made in 1998. I can't stop you from making all mistakes, but I can stop you from making those. So that was the first thing. I think the second thing, I was talking to a friend of mine, Dr. Jennifer Madden, if she's out there listening.

And I was, I'd met Jennifer actually at baggage claim after a flight from the U S to South Africa. Her husband met me. I think we met on the plane and he was like, you gotta meet my wife. So we ended up meeting and becoming friends. And I was lamenting to her about, you know, these kids and how they don't know the things that I think they should know, especially because of the resources that are available to them. And she's, was like, when I write a book one day, and I wasn't serious at all, I said, when I write a book one day, I'm going to put this in there. And she says, well, why don't you write the book? And I said,

Well, okay.

Speaker 1 (07:28)
Yeah, and an idea was born.

Speaker 2 (07:31)
Exactly, exactly. So I give a lot of credit to her. Just that one sentence shifted and made me think, oh, I could actually do this. And then I think that I think the third part that really made it happen was, you know, I was kind of in a bit of a funk for a few months and I thought, what could I do to make myself feel empowered? What could I do, you know, instead of just kind of sitting here, you know, having a pity party of one. And that's really what, when I started writing is I thought,

Okay, let me put these ideas on paper and maybe I could help somebody. That definitely got me out of my fog. And then getting a book deal was the final piece of the puzzle where they said, your manuscript is due by April 30th.

Speaker 1 (08:16)
Suddenly there's a deadline.

Speaker 2 (08:19)
And you know what's funny though, Julie? I was talking to my publisher and she was saying, this is my publisher in South Africa, because my book was published there the first time. And she said, there are people who get a book deal who never turn in a final manuscript. And I was shocked because I thought there's no way, like if you get the book deal, if you're fortunate enough to get a book deal, of course everybody would finish. She said, I promise you, Gary, it's a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (08:45)
What?

Speaker 2 (08:46)
And so that was just mind boggling to me that people wouldn't find a way. And trust me, I struggled to get it done, you know, at different parts of that process, but there was no way that I wasn't going to finish.

Speaker 1 (08:58)
Well,

that's of the failure gap, right? People get into the failure gap. They start making all sorts of reasons why they can't get it done. We see that not just with writing a book, but with all sorts of things that people know would be good idea. And they just stuck in it. But you've talked actually about a couple of things that helped you move through that. One is having a deadline. It is actually amazing what forcing factors will do to help you through the failure gap and actually get things done.

Another is that I feel like this work was probably very values aligned for you. Like actually getting this down on paper and being able to express your values and what you believe to be true about the work experience was motivating for you. And you had someone in your corner shout out to Dr. Jennifer for her efforts to push you in that direction and giving you that inspiration.

Speaker 2 (09:49)
Yeah, absolutely. I think and you know what? I mean, you know, you've been through the editing process. It's brutal. I had two rounds of editing. I must have missed that in my contract because I thought it was only one round. So once I finished the first round, I was like, done with that. And then my publisher was like, yeah, there's another editor that's looking at your book from a different angle. was like, my gosh, no, please. You know, so you and I kept trying to push myself. You know, this was during covid that I was

writing my book. So it wasn't like I couldn't distract myself with outside activities. There were no outside activities. So it was like I'm at home and I had to focus and I tried to find ways you know my phone is a big distraction. So I was like I'm putting the phone in the other room. I am not I'm going to put my chapstick and my lotion right here so I have no reason to get up and be distracted. So I tried to put

I tried to, you know, look at myself and think about what distracts me. then I tried to put mechanisms in place to make sure that I didn't allow that to, you know, to get in the way. And then I think the last part is, you know, it's okay to pause because there was one day I had a deadline to get a chapter back to my editor and I literally was so sick of this book. I was like, I cannot look at this. And I, and I messaged her and I said, can I just have it? Can I just have a couple of extra days? Like I'm just.

I love a deadline, but I was like, sometimes, you know, it's okay to push the deadline, give yourself a little bit of grace. And I met the next deadline, but I was like, I just needed a minute to look at it. Yeah. 100%. And I thought about the people I could help if I finished. That was a big one for me, was to think about, okay, Keris, if you can get on the other side of this discomfort, you you can help so many people. And I also had a friend, Timothy Maurice Webster.

Speaker 1 (11:18)
Not.

Speaker 2 (11:36)
He mentioned a phrase and I think I'm not gonna try to name it, but he said there's a part of our brains when we're nowhere at the end of something that our brain starts to shut down because it feels like, okay, we're almost done with that. And so that's why you get tired. You're like in that last 10 % cause your brain's like, oh no, we're done with that. We're moving on to the next thing. And so you just have to talk yourself into finding that energy and reminding yourself that you're not done. that.

the people that you want to serve and have impact on have not, they haven't, that need has not been met yet because you haven't finished. so that to hear him talk about the science was also really helpful too.

Speaker 1 (12:11)
Yeah,

just to know, mean, I'm a big believer in knowing how your brain works. And I think kids should be taught in high school how their brain works. So they know what's happening when they have certain reactions to things. think it's really, yeah. I'm going have to go do a little digging around this because I think that's so interesting that when you get close to the finish, your brain kind of skips ahead and says, we must be done with that. Like, why are we still putting time and energy here? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:22)
Absolutely.

Wonder

why it's, it's like you wonder how can I go this long on this thing? And then this last five or 10 % is literally killing me. And that's how I felt. I was at the end of the process and I was just running out of steam. And when he said that it helped me understand, okay, I'm not just a slacker. There's actually science behind it.

Speaker 1 (12:55)
That's so interesting. Yeah, I'm definitely going to dig into that a little bit. You know, I think that your book, Intelligence Isn't Enough, this is such a great concept, like the idea that so many professionals believe that if they just show up and they're smart and they're kind of they know the skills that that's enough for them to do well in their careers and to find satisfaction in their jobs and to progress. And we both know that that is absolutely not true.

Talk to me a little bit about this idea of intelligence isn't enough.

Speaker 2 (13:28)
So before I answer that, I'm going to answer. just found the name of that term. It's called anticipatory regulation for anybody that's out there. Yep. So yes, I had it in my phone. was like, I got to find this real quick. And then I think to answer your question, a lot of it was through for me, it was my own experience in my career where, you know, like I said, I grew up in a family where education was really stressed. wasn't a matter of, are you going to finish high school or are you going to finish university? It's.

Speaker 1 (13:36)
by regulation.

Speaker 2 (13:58)
when are you going to grad school? My mother was asking me five minutes after I graduated from undergrad, like, when are you going to grad school?

Speaker 1 (14:05)
And your brain was like, anticipatory regulation? I'm already done with school.

Speaker 2 (14:10)
Exactly, I moved on ladies. And so I think that's the family that I grew up in. And I think there are a lot of people, you're told to be smart, get good grades, work hard, and somehow magically you will be recognized. So if you think about that advice, other people don't factor anywhere in there. So I never really thought that I needed people to be successful.

And I think you get into the working space or you start your career and you start realizing that is not the case. Like you can have the greatest IQ and all the degrees and work ethic and technical skills. But if you don't get along with your manager, if you don't get along with team members, if your skip level manager doesn't like you, or you don't understand that environment, if it's not a good fit for you, you're not gonna probably deliver your best work.

And I think the thing with school is or university, you can do a lot of it on your own. And then, you you get the syllabus at the beginning of the year, you know what the assignments are. It's a very sort of step by step process. It's like if I go to class, read the materials, take the test, take the quiz, I'll probably get a good grade. You know, so as I compare it to like playing golf, golf is a very individual sport. You're however you do, you know, results in if you win or not. But work is more like basketball or hockey.

you're tossing that puck or that ball between you and other people to move it up the court, that ultimately achieve the goal. And it's going back and forth between you and another person. And so I had to realize I'm not going to be excellent by myself. Excellence happens with through and for other people. And once I got that lesson, I was like, okay, we got it. This is a totally different game that we're playing. The rules are different and how you're going to be successful is going to be

with three and four other people. that was like the big awakening, I think, for me was realizing you're not going to do this on your own.

Speaker 1 (16:11)
You know, I think a lot of strong technical people really struggle with this because they think it should be enough that they're a technical expert. They think it should be enough that they are hardworking and they're smart and they get their deliverables done and they view this kind of people part of it as like playing politics or I don't want to play their game. So you're working or talking with people who come from that place of I don't want to play their game.

How do you help them to cross that failure gap and kind of get into the reality that work is about more than just technical expertise?

Speaker 2 (16:52)
always liking it too. You know, when you go to somebody's house, so let's say Julie, you came to my house and I said, Julie, we take our shoes off here. You're not going to say to me, well, I'm not taking my shoes off. You know what mean? You're probably going to go along because those are the rules of our house, right? And the same would be true if I came to your house. If you say we eat dinner at seven o'clock every night on the dot.

I'm gonna probably come downstairs and eat dinner at seven o'clock, right? You adjust yourself when you're in different cultures. so that, and the same thing, when I moved to South Africa, I lived there for 10 years and I wasn't gonna go to South Africa and say, well, I'm American and this is how we do it in America. You make adjustments, know, obviously within, you know, some boundaries, right? You're gonna, there might be some things you say I'm not gonna do, which is fine. If you were naked at your house, I might be like, I'm not gonna do it.

I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line.

Speaker 1 (17:49)
Bye!

Speaker 2 (17:50)
You know, you're going to make the adjustments. And so I think we sometimes get ourselves so worked up that we're betraying ourselves if we make adjustments. So we make adjustments all the time. And I think from it. So think there's that. ⁓ think there's also the idea that, you know, I have two degrees in business and I'm telling you, they, you know, and I worked at McKinsey and I saw what great McKinsey slides look like. Nobody's teaching you how to do that at business school. So you have to have people who want to invest in your development so that you can show up.

in a way that aligns with how that culture wants you to show up. And people are human, like they're going to want to invest, people have limited time, right? So they're wanna invest in people that they know, like and trust. And so if you're somebody who's walled off, you're transactional, you don't, and I'm not saying you gotta go to work and tell your deepest, darkest secrets, but if you like basketball or tennis shoes or...

skydiving, talk about something so that people can get a sense of who you are beyond the work. And that makes them want to invest in you and that will help make your work product even better. And then I'll say the last thing is, you know, I mean, this kind of goes back to human nature as well as when people who are in the rooms who are making the decisions about bonuses, promotions, step up opportunities, raises, people have a tendency to do, to want to advocate for people that they like.

And people that, you know, it's like, if I'm going to be in the foxhole or the trenches, I want to know I'm here with somebody that I get along with, that I have a good relationship or good rapport with. And so, you know, that's why you'll oftentimes see people who might not be as technically strong advancing because they have those relationships. And people would rather take somebody who's an okay performer, who they have a great relationship with and that they can build that rapport and they can develop that person than to take somebody who has these really strong technical skills and they don't know, they don't like you they don't trust you.

And so I think there's an, you know what I mean? There's that element of just how humans work. And I just think we have to be realistic. And then the last thing I'll say is, you know, at the end of the day, we need these jobs. You know, I'm like, unless y'all have trust funds or you are generationally wealthy, we need to make it work. And if we don't need to make it work here, we need to make it work somewhere. And there are people everywhere and we have to learn, I think, to make some of those adjustments. Like I said, without compromising.

our boundaries and the things that are core to who we are. But outside of that, I think we gotta be a little bit flexible.

Speaker 1 (20:19)
Yeah, I think that flexibility is key. you know, I'm always telling people, I'm not actually a fan of bringing your whole self to work. I always say, nobody wants my whole self at work, you want maybe like 75 % of me. ⁓ Yeah, bring that 75%, then that's great. And so it's, but I think, actually, really strongly technical people sometimes are very binary. They're like, it's either all or nothing. Yeah, you don't have to bring everything but

Speaker 2 (20:31)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (20:46)
Yeah, you could warm up a little bit, right? Like you could actually help people understand who you are well enough that they can like, respect and trust you. And like, and respect, I'm sorry, sorry, just not to just rely on them to like, respect and trust your technical expertise, because there's lots of technical experts out there.

Speaker 2 (21:07)
Absolutely. Well, and that's the thing, the places I've worked, everybody is super smart. So it's like, what else you got? You're need something else. Differentiate yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why in my book, I've coined this phrase, the continuum of authenticity, because I heard a lot of people wrestling with this idea of either I'm 100 % real or I'm 100 % fake. what I suppose in the book is that authenticity exists on a spectrum.

And for me, it's about if my family were to come and see me at work, would they recognize me? And if the people at work were to come and see me with my family and my friends, would they recognize me? Because I don't want to be two separate people, but I can be okay with, okay, I'm a little bit louder and more sarcastic and cracking more jokes with my family that I wouldn't. But I'm still going to laugh and joke and be sarcastic at work, but I'm probably going to bring it down to maybe a level seven and not a level 10.

You know what I mean? So it's just about, you know, adjusting ourselves. And also I say it's like, you need to look at the level of safety, the message you're trying to get across the audience and the context to figure out where you play on that spectrum. And you might realize too that certain organizations want you to go to a level two and you're like, I'm never going below a five and that might not be the right place for you. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with the organization. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just not a good fit. It's like two people on a date.

Sometimes it's too good people where it's just, it's not a match and that's okay too.

Speaker 1 (22:38)
Yeah, absolutely. think we also have to recognize that you can't expect the organization always to bend to you. There has to be some flexibility sometimes in both directions. But guess which context is stronger, Your context or the organization's context?

Speaker 2 (22:57)
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (22:58)
I really appreciate your view of it as a continuum because I think that's so important for people to lean into. This isn't an all or nothing proposition. It's not, you totally change who you are when you walk in the door. It's, I like your idea of would people recognize you? They might be a little surprised by what they see, but they would recognize you. They would feel that authenticity in who you are. I find the same challenge for people sometimes in this space ⁓ where

they'll say, well, I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert and I can't be anything else. And I think that introversion and extroversion also exist on a spectrum and it's possible to learn some of the tools and resources of either disposition. I'm curious when you're working with people again who are maybe stuck in that mindset of my technical expertise should be enough. A lot of times those people are more naturally introverted.

How do you help them maybe to get more comfortable and confident, be more present or more available to their colleagues?

Speaker 2 (24:02)
One of the things I often say to people, and I have a chapter where I talk about personal branding and I talk about personal branding for introverts because I know, you know, the world is very loud with these extroverts and you know, you can feel like I have to show up like that, but you don't have to. And for me, I'm like, start where it's comfortable for you. So I know introverts a lot of times are better in smaller groups or one-on-one. So I'm like, maybe instead of going to the big networking event, you set up the one-on-one coffee chat.

or the small group luncheon with a group of people and start to open up there in a space that might be a little bit more comfortable for you. I think you could also ask your leadership, like if we're gonna have a meeting on Monday morning and there are materials that you want us to respond to, maybe ask your manager, hey, could you do me a favor and send me those on Friday? Because I sometimes struggle to come up with an idea or process in the moment. But if I could have a little bit more time, I'll be able to contribute better in the meeting.

So think there's also things you can ask for, things you can do. And then I challenge people, step outside of your comfort zone. You know, we talked a second ago about boundaries. I'll always say, so there's boundaries here, which is, you know, the things that are core to who I am as a person that I'm not going to compromise on. I always say like wearing my natural hair. For those of you that are listening, I have curly hair. This is a boundary for me. If I worked at a company that said, Carrie, you just straighten your hair to be successful? I'd be like, this is not the place for me. Hard and fast. But.

On the other side is the comfort zone where it's like, okay, this is my natural preference. If I ran the world, this is what I would choose. And I feel like what's in the middle is your opportunity for growth. So what are the things that are not natural to you, but that you are willing to try right up until the moment it bumps up against the boundary. And then that's when you say, okay, that's where I told the line, but be willing to try some different things because that is really where you grow. You don't grow in the comfort zone.

You know, and you don't grow by violating your boundaries because then you feel like you're you're betraying yourself. So that opportunity, that space between those two, that's where you have the chance to grow and learn some new things and maybe learn some things you're good at or you're interested in that you didn't even know you were good at or interested in. So I try to challenge people in that way.

Speaker 1 (26:16)
Yeah, I really love that that piece that you had about the con that challenging for especially introverts, how you can just try some different things, just push yourself out of that comfort zone a little bit. And that doesn't mean that you're betraying who you are or that you're exactly unreasonable. So I think that's great encouragement to people who maybe are struggling a little bit in this space is just start small. Find those little spaces where you can experiment with being a little bit more.

open to what's happening in the work environment.

Speaker 2 (26:50)
Yeah, and even like if you go, let's say you push yourself to say, I'm going to go to this happy hour or this networking event, maybe pick three people that you want to, that you know are going to be there and try to connect with those three. And then once you know, you've done those three, it's like, okay, I'm walking out, but at least you go there with kind of a goal. You can connect on a small level, you know, or a more intimate level with those three people. And then you can say like, Hey, I pushed myself to go somewhere uncomfortable, but I

operated in a way that works for me and still met the goal, which I think is ultimately what we're trying to do.

Speaker 1 (27:23)
Yeah, yeah, I love that idea of bringing some intentionality and setting some goals that concrete goals that you can say, I did that. so now I get dopamine hit over it. Right. Like, I'm like, yes, I did it. Yeah. You can just feel good about it. Yeah. Yeah. Chris, when you think about you've seen now lots of individuals as well as organizations and teams that have had to work through big challenges, whether it's pushing yourself out of your comfort zone.

Speaker 2 (27:38)
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (27:52)
or trying to accomplish something together as a team, is there a particular experience or example that stands out to you where a team really had to push hard to move away from just agreeing that something was a good idea and actually get it done as effectively as possible?

Speaker 2 (28:11)
Yeah, I led a project last year around people manager effectiveness and I and I the thing I mean it was one of my most favorite projects just because of the team and it's one of those it's one of those situations where I think you know it was kind of a we were in this together trying to really push this forward in the organization and I think it's a really good example because we had to figure out how are we going to make this work.

And it would have been easy for us to kind of give up because I think it was a bit of a passion project for myself and the leader. And we had other competing priorities too. This wasn't the only thing we were working on, but I think we all came together. We saw the importance of what we were trying to achieve. And I think that was the thing that unified all of us was we knew the impact that this could have. And you push through all kinds of...

you know, obstacles and setbacks around the technology and the process and the timing. But everybody stayed really focused on, I think, the goal. I think the other thing that was really critical for us was this was a team where everybody felt, you know, psychologically safe to say whatever they needed to say, whether it was challenging the status quo or pushing back on a more senior person or telling a more senior person, no, we can't do that. And I think that

It just made the team environment one where everybody was bringing their best. And, you know, the person who had the most expertise was the one who made the decision. And sometimes that wasn't the most senior person. And I think everybody, because everybody was focused on the goal, everybody put their egos to the side. And we focused on what we were actually trying to achieve. And it's one of my most favorite projects ever.

Speaker 1 (29:57)
Yeah, yeah, you you've mentioned a couple of things in there, psychological safety, checking your ego at the door, clarity in the goal, and also clarity and decision making, who owns the decision rights and what does that look like? And those are all, I think, really important for teams that are struggling to activate something that they know is really important. And sometimes it's because, for example, with decision rights, there's uncertainty around

you know, who's going to make that decision? And am I going to make that decision? Do I have that right? know, like there's a lot of, And nobody wants to say it or step into the space. And so I think you've, you've hit on some really good points there for people who might be trying to help their teams to, move through the failure gap and actually get things done. And I think it ties back to our conversation about intelligence isn't enough that it's not just about getting the smartest people in the room.

it's having a team that can work together and have that psychological safety and have that ego-free decision-making approach and really think about it through the lens of what's the impact that we wanna have in the goal that we're working towards. So I that as an example. Yeah. Well, I wanna just bring us down to a couple of quick hits for people. If you were gonna say, here's three things that people could do that would really help them

to challenge themselves to think, remember that intelligence isn't enough. And they might agree with that, but they're having trouble getting aligned to it because it's hard and people are people and people are messy, right? If there were two or three things that you would really encourage people to do, I'm gonna start off with one, which is read your book. Give it a plug there. What else could people do to help move beyond their own technical expertise assumptions?

and start to build the relationships that they need in order to progress in their careers.

Speaker 2 (31:56)
One of the things I'm going to give a shout out to Clifton's StrengthsFinder. I love that assessment. And I recommend it to people all the time. Y'all are not getting any sort of affiliate kickback or anything. I just love it. And the reason I love strengths is it builds a certain amount of confidence in us to say like, wow, I didn't even realize some of these things I do are even a strength, you know, because I think a lot of us we've grown up thinking, math, science, English.

Those are strengths, right? But you can have other types of strengths in terms of how you build relationships, you influence people. But so on one hand, it builds your confidence, but I think it also helps us realize we don't bring everything to the table. And you got, think you have to, one of the things that I really remember from taking strengths finding and going through debriefs is that there are things that matter to other people that may not matter to us. And we as leaders, we still have to deliver on those things.

if we want to get the best out of people. So that's one thing, you know, I think just remembering that. I think the other thing is a quote from somebody that I quoted in my book, his name is Shaka Booker, and I'm going to butcher this quote. I'm just going to paraphrase. You know, he said, when you're managing people, if you can only lead people through logic, you're going to miss half the people half the time, because everybody doesn't make decisions based on logic. Some people make decisions based on emotions.

or other factors, right? So you have to be able to lead different kinds of people. And you're not just managing the work. He said you're managing how people feel about the work. But you have to be able to connect with people on, you know, not just that logical, technical skills level. You got to be able to connect with people, I think, from a feelings perspective, as soft as that may sound. And look, for those of you that are listening that are just like, my goodness, I can't do this. I was right there with you. I

I was like, I'm here to do a job. I'm here to be excellent. I'm here to demonstrate skills. I'm not here for your feelings. listen, if you can only lead and influence people who are just like you, your impact is going to be very limited. You've got to be able to lead and influence people who are different than you, who think differently, who approach work differently. And I promise you, the work product will be better.

for having included all of these different perspectives. And when people feel like they're valued for the ideas and the strengths and the perspectives that they bring. those are a couple of things I would add to helping people kind of get over that hurdle in terms of the importance of other people.

Speaker 1 (34:36)
I that. And I think, I always like to say you can't out logic and emotion. And it doesn't do any good to try. So keep that in mind. Very true. I really appreciate, Carice, how you go back to the idea that if you want to stay in this belief structure that I shouldn't have to be engaged with my team, I shouldn't have to show up to work with 75 % of myself, I shouldn't have to share, you know, this kind of have these kinds of relationships at work, then

you are going to limit the impact that you can have. Because all the technical expertise in the world isn't going to get you there. So I think that I really appreciate the strength with which you're willing to say that to people, because I think it's important for people to hear that.

Speaker 2 (35:19)
And just one other thing to add. So the framework for my book is know yourself, know others, know your environment, integrate those three to build a personal brand and a communication style that allows you to have maximum impact.

So, and I've talked to people who are entrepreneurs, people who've worked, you know, in different sectors. And they're like, does this framework apply to me? I'm like, yes, you have to know yourself. It doesn't matter if you're an entrepreneur, if you are an employee, if you work in the nonprofit, you have to know what are your strengths, my areas of development, aspirations, motivations, what are my emotional triggers? What makes me step outside of my character? What are my values? You have to know that about yourself. If you're an entrepreneur, you might not have to know

you know, your boss, right? Cause you are the boss, but you have to know your employees. You have to know your vendors, your partners, your customers, your clients. You have to understand what matters to other people, how they like to be, you know, communicated with, how they make decisions, how they want to be presented, you know, information. You have to understand that to be able to really connect and influence them. And then you got to know your environment. If you're an employee, you got to understand how decisions are made and what priorities are.

What are the, who are the players and what does success look like? You know, if you're an entrepreneur, you got to know the environment in which you're operating in your business. Who are your competitors? You know, what are your strengths versus your areas of development? So those elements apply to all of us because people are everywhere. might be in different. ⁓

Speaker 1 (36:47)
They're everywhere.

Speaker 2 (36:48)
People are everywhere. Y'all don't take anything else away. People are everywhere and you have to deal with it. They might be in different roles or capacities or have, you know, there's different power structures, but they're everywhere and you cannot get away from them. Exactly. I'm trying. You have to find a way, right? To get along with them and work with them and get them to buy your products or, know. So I just think no matter what industry sector role you have,

Speaker 1 (37:02)
I have tried.

Speaker 2 (37:18)
Having people skills is a huge differentiator and a competitive advantage.

Speaker 1 (37:24)
Absolutely, I agree completely. And yeah, I think that's like the mic drop moment of this conversation is people are everywhere. Get over it and figure out how to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (37:35)
know

right exactly they're everywhere

Speaker 1 (37:38)
Yeah, my goodness. Well, Carice, I could talk to you for hours. think I love the way you think about these things and the work that you're doing and the impact that you're having on people and on the world. So thank you for those contributions. We always like to ask people one last question, which is, if there was something that you could get people aligned to do together, is there something that comes to mind for you, a call to action to the world to really say, let's all wrap our heads around this and let's start showing up?

in ways that will inspire people ⁓ to go in a different path. Anything that comes to mind for you in that space.

Speaker 2 (38:13)
I literally have had the biggest revelation, I'd say in the last like month or two about, you know, the 10 years that I spent in South Africa. And I say, the revelation is I don't think I would be the leader that I am without having spent that time there. And one of the biggest lessons I learned in South Africa is we're all connected. We're all in this together in this world, right? You know?

And I say, you know, in South Africa, because of the legacy of apartheid, you know, there's a lot of poverty in the country. And, you know, you can try to isolate yourself, live behind gates with security, and you send your kids to private school and you have private health care, but you still have to go to the mall, you know, and buy clothes. You still have to take your kids to soccer practice or go to the dentist. And so we have to live amongst each other. And I think it's just this idea of connectedness.

And that we need to just, if I need to give up a little so more people could be okay, I would want to do that because it honestly, it benefits me. Cause if you're okay, we're okay. You know I mean? And so I think it's just, I feel like the world is moving to this very individualistic place, but we're all connected. We're all in this together. And that's not just out in the world, but at work as well. We have to all be okay, be doing well, operating in a, you know, a place of strength, hopefully.

and so that we can all bring our very best and contribute to the ultimate outcome that we're trying to achieve.

Speaker 1 (39:44)
Yeah, I can't agree more. And I think that idea that we are all connected. I mean, you see it in Maslow's hierarchy. You see it in Thomas Jefferson saying the best way to ensure a successful democracy is an educated population, right? for everybody to be educated and for everybody to understand how things work. And I think, you know, it's a great call to action to say, let's embrace our connectedness as much as we're embracing our individuality and know that we are all a part of something.

⁓ And I think that's just a really important concept for everybody to hold onto and to think about a little bit. So thank you for raising that as a call to action for people. And I'll go ahead and close this out and just say thank you so much for really wonderful conversation. I'm excited for people to hear from you and also to have a chance to take a look at your book and really think about how for themselves, you know, they have to move beyond this idea that intelligence is enough and realize that it isn't enough and that we are all going to have this need to work with other people.

And the more we embrace that, the better off we'll all be.

Speaker 2 (40:46)
So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (40:47)
Yeah, it's been a pleasure and just a reminder to all of our listeners. We'll go ahead and post some links for Carice's book and some other socials for her along with the show notes so you can check those out there. Thank you for listening and feel free to like and comment and pass this on to others in your network. We'd really appreciate it. And with that, I'll go ahead and say goodbye and Carice, thank you again.