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The Birmingham Literature Festival Podcast - Welcome to the very first Birmingham Literature Festival podcast, bringing writers and readers together to discuss some of 2020’s best books. Each Thursday we’ll be releasing new episodes of the podcast, including wonderful discussions about writing, poetry, big ideas and social issues. Join us each week for exciting and inspiring conversations with new, and familiar, writers from the Midlands and beyond.
TRANSCRIPT
Casey Bailey 0:07
Hello wonderful people. Welcome to the Birmingham Literature Festival presents podcast. I am Casey Bailey, former Birmingham poet laureate, and I was delighted to be one of the guest curators for the 2022 Birmingham Literature Festival. For the next few weeks, we're going to bring you some highlights from last year's festival for you to enjoy whenever you'd like, you can subscribe to this podcast feed and get the new episodes as soon as they're available. This week's guest is one of the few who universally gets referred to as a national treasure. Michael Rosen has written over 70 books, including many of the most read and most loved children's books of the modern day. He's also a poet and memoirs and joined us to talk about his book many different kinds of love. This book was written as a result of his time on an intensive care ward during the COVID 19 pandemic in spring 2020.
Sarah Mullen 1:09
Good evening, everyone, and a very warm welcome to the second day of Birmingham Literature Festival. We're delighted to see you thank you so much for joining us.
We'd like to say thank you to the Arts Council England for their continued support of writing West Midlands and the Birmingham Literature Festival. We'd also like to say thank you to Birmingham Rep for for their support. My name is Sarah Mullen, and I run the bookshop on the green. And over the last few years, I've had the privilege of working with Michael Rosen it through my work with Bournville book fest. And Michael has inspired hundreds of 1000s of children across the West Midlands, with the outreach work that we've done through the power of poetry. And during lockdown Michael and his good friend, Benjamin Zephaniah made a video together, which we put out during the final week of home education. During that time when every child in the country was bored to tears. And every parents was tearing their hair out. And that went all over the country and all over the world, and inspired countless Well, hundreds of 1000s of children. So Michael Rosen is very special to us. And I'm sure like me when you heard the news of his illness, you your heart went out to him and his family. And he's here tonight to tell that story. So will you please join me in welcoming to the stage: Michael Rosen.
Michael Rosen 2:37
Lovely, thank you very much indeed. That's very nice. Yes, I can see you as well. That's good. And it's nice to be here. And I mean that in two senses of the word. Yeah, think about that. Yes, that's right. Well, what I've done is I've done a kind of filleted the book and something else I've written since. And I'm going to read you bits of that. And then maybe we have got time to have a bit of a talk afterwards. So you'll see it's very kind of fragmentary and episodic. So here we are.
We start on March the 10th 2020. When I was asked on to the today program, and we discussed whether there was a thought going around that if old people died of COVID it wouldn't be so bad as young people dying of COVID A woman with me said, Well, if anyone goes let it be me, not my grandson. I thought oh, is Mr. Death still doing the rounds then? I thought we didn't believe in him anymore. Does he turn up at our door and say, I've got to have one of you tonight. And we have to choose? Take me we old and shout leave the young ones. Is that it?
March the 27th 2020 day 12 of my illness. The year seasons roll by this was a tweet. In a night sweats, freezes, sweats freezes. I wondered whose mouth I had. I didn't remember it as made of sandpaper. Water is as good as ever. In March 2020, you couldn't see a doctor you couldn't go to a&e. You couldn't get tested. All you could do was ring a paramedic. I rang a paramedic. He told me to breathe down the phone. He listened. He asked me if I felt worse than yesterday. I said no. He said I was okay. In the spare room at home I say to Emma, it feels like - Emma's my wife - it feels like I can't get enough air, there isn't enough air. "I can't catch up" I say. I got so ill, Emma called our friend and neighbor who's a doctor. She came over with an oximeter. Emma put it on my finger. "58" Emma said. Doctor said "Is that the pulse?" Emma said "no, the pulse is 115". Doctor wrote later she'd never seen anyone with 58 who was still conscious.
Emma drives me to A&E - Elsie in the back - thats our daughter. I'm panting, it's night, the road is empty. I go in, I don't have time to turn around. They're gone. A doctor is standing by my bed asking me if I would sign a piece of paper, which would allow them to put me to sleep and pump air into my lungs. Will I wake up? I say. There's a 50/50 chance he says. If I say no? I say. Zero, he says. I sign. And then what happened then was that I don't know anything that happened next. But the people who looked after me, wrote what's called a Patient Diary or what I call a Very Patient Diary. And on the front of it, it says this diary can be completed by relatives, friends, nurses, doctors and allied health professionals to record the patient's daily events. The diary may help with the patient's post critical care recovery by providing them with information and insight into a time when they were not aware.
April the 9th: Dear Michael, we are your ITU helpers today. You're doing fantastically well and fighting hard. You still have a breathing tube, but you're doing well keep fighting LSC and Lizzy. And then one of the nurses actually a guy called Dan he wrote his own diary, which he sent to me. And he changed our names he called me Mr. Jacobs. He wrote that he said a few Hail Marys over Mr. Jacobs even though I know he's Jewish. Good idea, I thought. Cover all the bases. Next day he wrote: Came in, Mr. Jacobs still alive. Wow, I thought, you must have thought that when you went home that night, Mr. Jacobs was going to cop it. Poor Mr. Jacobs.
Hi, Michael. I'm your helper this evening. Your vitals are slowly improving, including your temperature. We've wrapped you in a heated blanket and reposition you regularly to improve your lung perfusion. You're sleeping peacefully at the moment, monitored and controlled by the ventilator. We've still another eight hours together but so far so good. Jenny - physio by day, ITC helper by night.
April the 14th. To Michael, you require the ventilator to take over your breathing due to your further deterioration. The ICU team had to prone you, meaning you had to lie on your belly to help improve your oxygenation. This procedure required seven people to reposition you safely. We're hoping to see you improving every day. Take one day at a time. You'll get there soon. All the best, Michael. Margie, ICU nurse.
April 17. Dear Michael, my name is Beth, I've been the nurse looking after you overnight. I normally work at Great Ormond Street Hospital looking after children but I've been moved here to help look after adults. I call you guys "big children". You've done really well overnight, you're starting to move little bits. Which is excellent. Hope you continue this great progress. You've got this looking forward to meeting you when you wake up. You wrote my favorite book. We're going on a bear hunt. All the best, Beth.
April the 19th. Dear Michael, my name is Natasha. I'm usually employed in the community but because the school I work in is closed, I'm helping out in ICU. This evening, one of the IV lines in your neck was taken out because the doctors are happy with your progress. You've also been moving your arms about a little and I think you might have been aware of speaking to you. Keep fighting Michael.
April 24. Hello, Michael. I've been asking you to blink and squeeze my hand to communicate. And you've been diligently obliging. It's the only time in my life anyone has ever called me. Diligently obliging. Please show your these are the hands poem to Boris Johnson. Best of luck, Kajal Doshi - physio ICU helper.
April 26. Hey, Michael, today's been a busy day for you. Lots of doctors and nurses have been caring for you. You've been restless at times, but I've been there to hold your hand. Alison
April 29. Good afternoon, Michael. It's Claire the physio again, you must be sick of me talking to you today. We've been chatting a lot to keep you stimulated, so your blood pressure rises. You're turning your head when I'm talking to you as well. Great stuff. Keep going. You've got this. Claire
(I don't know anything about this at all! Right.)
April 29: Nightshift. You still have a breathing tube going into your throat, meaning you aren't able to speak so unfortunately for you it's mostly me chatting away to you. I seem to get a response when I mentioned that you supported arsenal. Judging from your pictures, but you didn't seem impressed when I told you I was a Derby County fan. Keep going keep fighting and keep being so strong, Lizzy xx (physio.)
May 3rd: You're trying to communicate now by mouthing words and nodding or shaking your head or using facial expressions. Natasha On May the third overnight your blood pressure decided that it fancied being a yo yo. And we've had to do a good amount of deep suctioning via your cracky (the breathing tube in your throat). I'm really sorry that this is so unpleasant. It's so important to get that mucus out of your lungs. I'm sorry, I can't write more. With the pandemic, each nurse has multiple patients. But keep fighting. You'll go home soon, Sarah.
Emma was writing emails to the family telling them what was going on. Hi, oh, Mick is experiencing delirium at the moment and this is making him quite agitated, hallucinating and moving his arms and legs around. The doctor asked me for some music last evening, and apparently some Django Reinhardt seem to soothe him a bit. Elsie and I made a playlist for him this morning, which is now taped on the wall by his bed and the staff already played him some of the tracks. Love to all, Emma
May 4th: Hi, Michael. We're going to video call your family shortly. It's always important for recovery to hear familiar voices. Keep fighting. I know you can do this. Best wishes Holly.
May 4th: Dear Michael things may seem like a dream when you're here. You may remember vivid memories or images, sounds or even smells. That's very normal. Your family have been sending their love every day or the best in your recovery. Joe (nurse)
May 6th: Afternoon Michael, we've had a busy day so far it started off with spa time. Bed bath, hair comb, nail cut and clean and we also shaved your beard. Sorry, we know you usually have a beard but that's just so we can keep the area around your tracheotomy clean. I'm unsure whether I work with you again, Michael. I should be heading back to my bladder and bowel team. Best wishes, Holly.
May 7th: Dear Michael, Happy Birthday! It's been so lovely to help look after you today on your birthday. You've been popular today. FaceTime calls from your family and the birthday card. You were also treated to a rendition of happy birthday from about 15 icu staff around your bedside and a round of applause from staff and one of the patients. Get well soon, Sophie (physiotherapist) Monique, ICU nurse.
Emma to the Family: Hi all Mick (that's Me) has been calmer, more settled and has been off all sedation for the last few days. He's responding to some commands with hand squeezing, arm movements, and has some improved function in his muscles which are obviously very weakened after so long. They think he may have some nerve damage. And I don't know if this could be permanent or temporary and what the cause is. He's still on the antibiotics for the cavitating pneumonia. (I got a secondary infection in it.) All love for now. Emma
May the 15th: Night Shift. Hi Michael. I originally admitted you to the intensive care unit 40 days ago. Well what a roller coaster you've been on since then. And you're still here to tell the tale. (This should be written in an Irish accent by the way!) I've read your birthday cards and messages to you tonight and continually remind you where you are which seems to help when you start to get a bit agitated. Get well soon, Carmen
May the 16th: Dear Michael, is Natasha again. Although you can't voice yet because of the cuffed tracheotomy tube, you've been able to indicate yes or no. And with your combination of guesswork and your expressive nonverbal communication skills, you're able to ask some questions and make comments. There'll be moments when you've been distressed and needed lots of reassurance. This is completely understandable. Being in ITU under the current circumstances can be incredibly disorienting and traumatic. I wish you safely home soon, Natasha.
Emma to the family: May 17th: At short notice today, the hospital allowed me to visit Mick. (That's actually basically because even though they're taking me off the sedation, I hadn't woken up. So they were getting worried.) They wheeled his bed out onto the fourth floor where there's a great view of London. (She likes London), so I could sit with him. I played him all the little messages you recorded for him and he definitely responded to them. He's now also had a negative COVID test. Bloody Hurrah. All love Emma.
Hi, Micheal. You've been trying to tell us a few things but we haven't been able to understand. And that's been very frustrating for you. But you've told us you're comfortable and you stay positive in spite of it all. Keep fighting. It'll be worth it. Dan, SLT (that's speech and language therapist.)
May the 19th day 43: Please be patient with yourself slowly but surely, I can't blame you that you really wanted to go home, hospital can be quite boring at times. (Not that I knew about it.) Now you continue to touch and inspire every human being you will encounter. God bless, your nurse Wincy
May 21st: Dear Michael, talking to you this evening you're expressing you've had to relearn many things as you recover from your illness, this is true. But remember to give yourself the time to do this, you will get stronger day by day. Be patient if you can. We will help you as you continue on your journey of recovery. So pleased to be able to talk with you hear your voice. Best wishes, Louisa
Emma on the 22nd May, wrote: I'm very happy to say that Michael is moving out of ICU tonight. He's talking still confused delirium at times, and he's trying to piece it all together, obviously, but slowly becoming more Mick-like I'm going to the hospital in a bit to deliver him some comfy bed clothes, a soft blanket, toiletries. He will have been in hospital eight weeks tomorrow, but 47 days in ICU, looking forward to a glass of wine later. Love to all, Emma.
So I came out of the ICU then, and they put me in a geriatric ward. We'll come to that - it's not funny, I don't know why you laugh at that! The consultant said "we didn't know if you were brain dead or not, Michael." I said you didn't tell me that at the time. He said, "but there wasn't any point, we thought you were brain dead." One fragment drifts towards me a nurse stands by my bed and says, you're on puree. It says cottage pie. She feeds me pureed cottage pie with a spoon. It tastes fantastic. I love it. I say thank you for the pie. And thank you for feeding me. After I was in a coma, they put me in a geriatric ward. I suppose they thought I might be terminal. One nurse must have thought I was a bit sprightly. She said what are you in here for? I said, I don't know. And if I don't know and you don't know well, then we're both in trouble. I'm in the geriatric ward. I looked down to the bottom of the bed at my big toes. The nails had come off and there was just dried blood. "That's what's happening with COVID, they said. Sticky blood fills the capillaries they burst and bits of the toes die, like frostbite."
One night in the geriatric ward. I lay in bed trying to remember my shoes. I don't know what shoes I've got. I don't know what shoes I've got at home. I can remember my Crocs. I couldn't remember what shoes I had at home. I didn't tell Emma that because I felt ashamed. I lay on my back and made up a story in my head about a cat who longs to have pasta. He can't have pasta because he's owners go away and forget to tell the boy looking after the cat that it loves pasta. I wrote the story. It's called Rigatoni the Pasta Cat. It's come out actually. I think it's about me in hospital longing for hummus.
One night on the phone in the geriatric ward. I said to Emma that when I come home, I'd better live upstairs so that I can crawl to the loo. I don't think I'll be ablehumm to go up and down the stairs. A month later when I got home I saw the downstairs loo. I'd forgotten we had a downstairs loo.
In the geriatric Ward I shrink down to a body they test. Bits of a body they test, a body in bits. Eye, toe, ear, ribs; ribs, tongue, tailbone, eye; toe, ear, ribs; skin, lips, ribs. That's what I am. A body in bits. After the coma four people came to my bed and lifted me up so that I could stand. I shook all over. I looked down and saw my legs. They were my father's legs when he was dying.
You sat with me. You washed me you clean me. You shaved me. You held my hand you woke me up to stop my blood pressure going down. You sang to me. You talk to Emma. You played me her playlist you wrote to me in the patient diary. You told me to keep fighting. It's the sort of thing we do for our children as parents, but you're not my parents.
A therapist came to my bed and said you had a tracheotomy. So you have to be careful about what you eat. You can't eat raisins, she said. But some days that's all I eat. I said. I tell children in schools. My name is Michael Raisin. You can't eat raisins anymore. She said. A psychologist came he said we filled you up with mind changing drugs. You may have frightening hallucinations. I said I dream I'm at German Christmas party. I can't move. They throw berries in the air and they explode. And then we sing Hi Liga nacht. Stille knacht. He said at the rehab hospital. Yeah, I went to a rehab hospital next On the first day, a guy who'd been in the Greek army came to my bedside, clapped his hands together and said, 123 Let's go. I said, go where? I can't move. How long were you in the coma for 40 days? I say 40 days and 40 Nights. It was a bit biblical of me, wasn't it? Mind you, I wasn't on a boat. And there weren't any animals with me. And my name is not Noah either. I tried to think of his wife's name. Mrs. Noah. My wife wasn't with me.
At the rehab hospital, the occupational therapist said "throw the balloon to me." I tried. It was too heavy. At the rehab hospital, one guy said he was going to bunk off going to the gym that afternoon. I lay in bed wondering what he was bunking off from? Himself? The first time I walked to the toilet without my stick, Sticky McStickStick. I sang Search for the Hero Inside Yourself to get there. I sat on the loo and thought, I wonder how many people have sung Search for the Hero Inside Yourself to get themselves to the loo. They've been worried about my low blood pressure. But they brought me the Daily Mail so it'll be fine in just a moment.
The consultant said you've got three blood clots in your pulmonary artery. Should I worry? I said. He said you'll probably digest them. I thought of clots like scabs. On camping holidays, me and my friend Mark used to eat our scabs. Maybe it'll be something like that. Yeah.
I learned to walk when I was one, I learned to walk when I was 17, after a car accident. I'm learning to walk again, now I'm 74. Three times. Seems a bit excessive.
When I went to the rehab hospital, I couldn't stand up. I couldn't walk. The physiotherapist and occupational therapist told me they would get me walking in three weeks. I didn't believe them. They were right. I was wrong. They taught me how to walk again. When I got home, there was a letter from the hospital for me. It said that while I was in intensive care, there was an outbreak of Klebsiella cavitating pneumonia, bits of my lungs cavitated. I imagined something in my lungs making caves.
The eye doctor said "Why have you still got your tracheotomy dressing on?" I said there's a hole. He said I'll find you someone. A woman took me away. She looked in the hole. "Your granulating" she said. "This will hurt it's silver." Later the hole closed. ("She's in cosmetics", the eye doctor said.)
When I came out of hospital I forgot the names of Tom Cruise, George Clooney and Meryl Streep. I had famous Hollywood Film Stars Forgetting syndrome. Thoracic signed me off but the consultant did say that the scan showed that I had a thymic cyst. Should I be worried? I said, No. Why is it there? I said, I don't know, she said. Where's it come from? I said, No. It's more like it's never gone away. She said, Oh, okay. I said, Okay.
We think we know who we are. There's the mind and there's seeing our body and feeling it as it does its bodily things. Then you get ill, and doctors and nurses start reading stuff inside you. Livers, kidneys, spinal column. You knew they were there. But you couldn't read them. I said to the consultant that "just before you guys put me to sleep, you said that I had a 50/50 chance of waking up. Was that what we all had on that ward? 50/50. More or less? He said yeah, in the end we lost about 42%.
The eye doc said they were worried about the pressure in my eyes. I was worried that I couldn't see much with my left eye. So they lasered holes in my eyes. They took out lenses and put in plastic ones. They put plastic drains in. The pressure's okay, it's just that I can't see much with my left eye but anyway, never mind. I went to see the ear doctor. He said that bleeds in my brain had knocked out the nerve. That's what the eye doctor said, I said. The bleeds have knocked out my eye. He gave me a hearing aid. Keep it on all day said. He went over to a computer. I'll be able to see on here, if you've got it on or not.
The consultant said that the intensive care ward was equipped for 11 patients at the worst moment we had 24. We're supposed to have one nurse with one patient all the time, 24 hours a day. Sometimes we had one nurse running between three or four patients, some nurses haven't recovered.
You said that the last night I lay in the bed struggling to breathe, you thought the shadow of death crossed my face. I remember the line about walking through the valley of the shadow of death, or how the angel of death passes over and kills others. I'm confused between thankful and sorry. Thankful to be here now. Sorry for those who didn't make it. Sorry for you, as I imagine what it felt like to look on that shadow.
Two physios come over and sit on the sofa. They asked me what are your long term objectives? I thought "Have I got any of them?" I wondered, have I ever had long term objectives? I don't think so. What are your long term objectives? Right now they said. Um, to be able to walk to the end of the street, go to the Jewish deli, remember what I went there for and bring it back home? All by myself. That would be good, I think. Yes, they say, anything else? Live for a bit more. And come to think of it. I've never bothered to make pickled cucumbers. I just buy them but my mother made such lovely pickled cucumbers. I would like to try that one day. You're doing very well, they said.
Your voice is very feeble, you need voice therapy. After all that time in a coma your diaphragm's forgotten how to work. They said I had to sing down a plastic straw so that it blows bubbles. And trill through my lips. I did a lot of that. Now my diaphragm works.
After I came out of the hospital, someone sent me a card: Resurrection of the Year. I guess that of the year saves it from being blasphemous. You get used to the body you've got: you know it. You may not have words for it. But you have pictures of bits of it, and how the bits move. Body says Hi, I'm your back. This is how I bend. Hi, I'm your mouth. This is what your teeth feel like, Hi, I'm your legs. This is how you walk. It's your body, in your mind. Then a big thing happens in your body changes. You've got a new body new body bits, and your mind struggles to know it. To start off with it doesn't want to; you don't want to know your new body. You want your new body to go away. Then suddenly, oh sorry, then slowly, you start to find out ways to get to know it. You can try not to though it won't make any difference. It'll still be there saying hi. I'm your new body. It doesn't walk away. It's always with you. You have to get on together.
When the doctor said that I had a 5050 chance of waking up. I remember thinking, hey, actually, that's not so bad. 50/50 is quite good. Now I think 50/50 is not so good. People say to me, do you remember anything about being in the coma? I say no, nothing. I don't remember anything of the coma or waking up or the first days after that. Then it gets complicated. I remember times when I thought I knew what was going on. But now I know that I didn't know what was going on. My father said so long as he got your health and strength, you should worry. He said you should worry ironically. So it sounds like you've got nothing to worry about. I didn't have my health and strength; then I did. I should be so lucky. Now I sound like Kylie Minogue.
When my father and my brother teased me, my mother would say, leave him alone. He's tired. They learnt it. First they tease me. And then before mum could say they would say leave him alone. He's tired. It could be on my gravestone. Leave him alone. He's tired.
When people meet me, they say "you're alive!" And I say, Are you sure? I've discovered that some people think that over 70s are dispensable, or more, if we die, there's more chance that they will be saved. I walk into walls. The edge of the table is nearer than I think it is. I pour but miss the cup. I missed the bottom step. You call from the living room and I go and look for you in the bathroom. The cats aren't stuck in the cupboard. They're stuck in the loo. I hold banisters. My grown up sons come over and take the dad for a walk. I don't have a lead. I don't run off. And I don't sniff other dads.
The consultants said that at the beginning there wasn't enough PPE. One time the PPE that came in was secondhand. One piece came out of the packing with blood on. It says on the side of the bottle of eyedrops that the drops might stay in my eye. It does stay my eye, I look in the mirror, there's a circle of red skin. And I wonder who's been punching me in the eye. On March the 13th 2020, just about when I caught COVID, there was a lot of talk in the media about herd immunity. What were they thinking of? That it was going to be okay that hundreds of 1000s of people who are going to have to die? Later they said they never did think that. The 66 year old journalist said to me yes, we know you were ill Michael but you're 74. But? That that's doing a lot of heavy lifting. What's "but" about being 74? Are my days less valid than her days? If I had copped it, would have been more okay than if she had copped it?
With the echocardiogram, I heard bubbles and beats and volcanic mud plopping. As the probe slid over my chest, some bubbles got louder, others quieter. At the end, the man said that my left ventricular fraction was good. I felt proud of my left ventricle. At the brain hospital, they did a cognitive functioning test on me. First question was, What is the name of the Prime Minister? I thought: cruel to remind me of that. One question in the cognitive functioning tests of the brain hospital was matching little tiles to a picture. I struggled. I couldn't do it. I felt bad. She said don't worry. We weren't trying to find out if you could do it or not. We were testing whether you could concentrate. The brain surgeon said "Did I want to look at my brain?" I said I've been trying to look at my brain for years. I'm a writer. He put up a slide. "It looks like you've had altitude sickness," he said. I said well, the highest I've been is the fourth floor of the Whittington hospital.
I said to Emma, the physiotherapist at the rehab hospital back then, that I didn't think I'd be able to do a show to hundreds of children in a theater again. She said I would. This year, I did a show to hundreds at the Queen Elizabeth Hall, hundreds of children at the Queen Elizabeth Hall. A woman with her kids asked me to sign a book. "It's me," she said. It was Emma, the physiotherapist. I'll finish there. All right. I could read The Are The Hands too. But it will save that if you've got a copy of the book, I forgot to bring my copy down with me a bit.
So maybe we could move to questions. If any of you would like to ask questions, then we could do that. So that's a sort of digest of These Are The Hands and then I have a new book coming out in February called Getting Better. It was called Getting Better on the on the cover Getting Better Michael Rosen. I said, Why don't you switch that round? And it says Michael Rosen Getting Better. Very good. Anyway, so that comes out in February. So I've sort of compressed bits from from that and from the book from the two books. Yes. Okay.
Abigail Campbell 33:42
Thank you, Michael. I'm Abigail, and it's my pleasure to be able to say thank you to Michael, I'm sure you're gonna join me in saying massive thank you for sharing that story with us, and so many stories within.
Stories within stories within stories, there's so many layers to the book, I think. But my main role here is now to turn the tables and to invite you to ask some questions of Michael who's very happy to take them. So just what we've got some roving mics, I think, yes, they're there. They're poised, ready for action. I was just going to start things off because I'm here and I've got the privilege of being able to do so. The wonderful thing about listening to you talking just now was how you animated those patient diaries, which I think is such an important part of the book and so, so full of emotion and you know, the kind of like the heartbeat, really of the book. And I was just wondering, what did it feel like to you? I mean, they're a gift to you as it as a patient but also as a writer. What did it feel like when you first got them in your hands and read them?
Michael Rosen 34:49
Well, actually, to be absolutely honest, I couldn't read them. I just looked at this. It was rather strange. It was sat on the kitchen table. And then we would say that so that's the patient diary, and I'd go Yeah, right. The patient diary. And if you didn't know, it's just a little kind of like what I call a Woolworths exercise book. I know, Woolworth's doesn't exist anymore. But you know what I mean? I'd say Rymans now. So anyway, so I didn't open it. And then Emma who said it will be really good. This book you're doing Michael, not just you blathering on? Why don't you have the the patient diary. So we'll have them read it. So why don't you read it? I went, Yeah, right. And then so she suggested that to the editor, the editor said, What a great idea. So I photocopied it and sent it to them. And she said, Well, have you chosen the bits? I said, No, no, I thought it'd be a good idea if you did. So I still hadn't read it. And I think actually, I hadn't read it until the book came out.
Abigail Campbell 35:50
Wow. Wow. Amazing.
Michael Rosen 35:54
And yeah, it's it's difficult some bits of it? I mean, I, I don't know why I mean, you know, I mean, medicine's very interesting. I mean, you are just an organism, you know, you're just there as an organism. And I fully understand that. I mean, I had to sort of aborted medical training myself. So I just kind of think they just did all they did professionally and beyond. But I don't know why it why it sort of troubles me really. But it does. So I haven't quite figured that out yet. They did warn me - some people get a form of post traumatic stress disorder. They get they get when the when - I've made light of it - but when the when I was asked "Did I have, you know, traumatic - that it was I hallucinating and so on?" The reason why they come around is that quite a few people do because quite literally when he said, mind changing drugs, it is I mean, you are jammed up to your eyeballs with opiates. And also with paralyzing drugs because of this tube that stuck down your throat. So when they take you off that stuff, then you are like, you know, we hear about, I don't know rock stars or something coming off it. And people just go up the wall and start thinking that the clock on the wall is about to eat them and things like that, you know, these terrible nightmares. And all I had were these kind of funky trippy dreams about German Christmas parties. And one that I haven't said there I kept. I told myself a Christmas carol, right, I told myself in my dream, and then had this great idea to rewrite it. I've got this memory of me sitting there rewriting it, but then getting upset that I couldn't remember the rewrite all within the dream. So I'm going oh, I rewrote it. And it was really good. It's a bloke with a dark floppy moustache in it. Anyway, that's about as traumatic as it got. Whereas some poor people, I mean, quite seriously, maybe there's some people in the room now, you know, and I don't mean to make light of it, that it is utterly traumatic. And because it's in a sort of Neverland, where you don't know whether you were asleep or awake, this kind of Neverland between conscious and unconscious, the other way around, unconscious and conscious, it can come back to you as sort of nightmarish things in the middle of the night. And so people have told me, because I've attended some seminars and so on. And it's been very disturbing for them.
Abigail Campbell 38:10
Thank you, right. Okay, now I will do my proper job, which is to invite you to ask questions. So should we have hands for questions and see, there's one there and one there? Should we do two at once? Is that alright with you? Michael? Yeah,
Michael Rosen 38:22
no, no as they come, yeah. Thanks, Ryan. Thank you. I'm gonna cause a world expert on intensive care...
Audience member 38:31
Have your experiences altered or reinforced any of your views on anything?
Michael Rosen 38:37
Well, first of all, the NHS, I mean, I'm a socialist and the NHS, in spite of the fact that Therese Coffey said that it was invented by a Tory. It's not the story, my parents told me, in fact, I looked it up just there. Right bang in the middle of Wikipedia, the first idea of a state run health service came from the socialist Medical Association, a Labour Party or to you see Congress in about 1938. So I don't know what she was talking about there. But anyway, I mean, when I say kind of reinforced my belief in the NHS, and the idea that we can run things in a state sort of way, albeit with local control of one sort or another local democratic control. I mean, it didn't just reinforce it. I mean, it put me in love with it. I mean, the kind of treatment I had and the kinds of people I've met some of them since I've met Monique, and I've met Margie, and I met Carmen on the telly. And I met Beth at the Good Morning Britain studio. So some of those nurses - I met Joe. Yeah, met Joe, as I say, one or two others. And of course, my friend, the consultant. Dear Hugh. And they're just incredible people. I mean, but they don't know they are and they don't think they are. But that is very hard to describe. It's such an incredible act of what we think is important, looking after each other, from the cradle to the grave, as I think it was put in 1948. And there's no higher calling really. And so I suppose it's reinforced that and supported that. And I take an active part in things like Enough is Enough rallies and so on, and meet nurses. In fact, I've, I've got a new job, actually, the people who work in the health service asked me to come and tell them what it was like in intensive care. And I said - I didn't know! Why would only know? I'm the last person to know! But I'll tell you, I'll read you what the nurses said. I read them. So the Royal College of nurses annual conference asked me so I just read them the diaries. And they were very, very pleased. And as a result, they made me an Honorary Fellow of the Royal College of Nurses, I said, but it wasn't me. I said, it's very nice of you. But there was I just read you the letters that you wrote, anyway, so yes, I keep getting invites to talk to people in the NHS, which is very lovely. I feel it's at least I'm kind of returning things. I sort of get involved in formal staff training, really, I suppose. Yes, that's right. So I've talked to ICU nurses and doctors, Royal College of Physicians, all that sort of thing. So I've done quite a lot of that these days. Slightly different from, you know, 400 4 year olds going We're Going on a Bear Hunt, we're going to catch a big one... A little bit different!
Abigail Campbell 41:27
I think there was a lady over here.
Audience member 41:29
Hello Michael, partly you've answered my to my question was about so you're preaching to the converted here, I think in terms of what you've said about the importance of the NHS and almost like a battle cry for it. But I'm just wondering, so I do to sort of lone protest outside the Tory conference with an RCN T shirt on. But I'm just wondering how we can break through and make your work - it is a political message, but how it can be amplified? Well, I think that's my question really and my wondering,
Michael Rosen 42:07
Luckily, it's not me in charge. I mean, people are doing very well, I think, you know, we've got all sorts of sections of the population doing what they're trying to do in order to defend their living standards, and their conditions of work. And, of course, now the nurses are balloting this week, I think or next week anyway. And they're fighting obviously for their salaries, but they're also fighting for the NHS. I mean, these things are, you know, sometimes the media tried to separate the two and so somehow say that if teachers come on strike, they're against education. Well, no, they're not fighting for the, for the profession and for the profession to be able to replenish itself to recruit, and for the conditions of education, so it's quite hard to get that message across. I agree, particularly with the kind of strange, weird questioning that interviewers do. I don't know whether you watched some of the interviews with Mick Lynch. But I mean, they're almost like comedy routines, aren't they? I mean, it's just extraordinary. And when I watched the one with Kay Burley, asking Mick Lynch, about the pickets, nobody saw that one, and she said are the pickets going to be violent? And he went ??? "You can see him over there - they're just standing there, yeah, but they're fine. You can see them, Kay." And she asked about five times and she started her head started going from side to side. And then she tweeted later, she said something like about Mick Lynch losing control. And he was standing there going, you can see them over there. I mean, you know, he never loses control whatsoever. I mean, I've met him a couple of times. And then, you know, I just sort of thought, well, we're moving into a new phase. I think I've written an article a little bit about that in the Guardian today. Anyway, I've sort of suggested that, while we've been focusing on these conferences, there's another great big wheel of politics, which is just about to happen, which is much bigger than - well, indeed, whether Therese Coffey says the NHS was invented by Tories or not or how Liz got on. So anyway, you can have a look at that online. There's my comments. In fact, talking of A Christmas Carol. It's actually I'm reading the Tory party conference through the prism of A Christmas Carol, here we are, it all comes together. So please do look online or buy a copy even as The Guardian. Yes, that's right. So it's in today's Guardian.
Abigail Campbell 44:37
very timely. Thank you. Right. Oh, my goodness. All hands all hands all at once. There's a young man right here. I think would like to ask a question and the gentleman behind him and then we'll we'll try and take some more.
Audience member 44:51
One, of those the shoes that you couldn't remember and also, do you still have Sticky McStickStick?
Michael Rosen 44:58
I'll come to Sticky McStickStick in a minute. Yes, these are the shoes that I couldn't remember. I tend not to buy shoes very often. And I did these other ones the very ones so I'm glad you spotted that. Yeah, I lay in bed and all I could - I have these crocs that I had in my by the side of my bed - not how I was gonna get up because I couldn't but anyway - I had the crocs and all I could think of was "What am I shoes like?" so yes, these are they my friend. Yes, indeed. And what was your Sticky McStickStick question?
Audience member 45:30
Do you still have sticking mystic course?
Michael Rosen 45:33
Are you crazy? Sticky McStickStick is by the front door should I ever need him. He looks at me rather wistfully. As I go out the door going "I don't suppose you need me do you?" Fine. Go to the corner shop if you want. That's all right. So he sits there by the door and he's a wonderful gray NHS stick. And yes, I learned to walk with Sticky McStickStick. I noticed Tony Ross in the book I've done called Sticky McStickStick that sort of romanticized him a bit and turned him into a kind of Mary Poppins umbrella handle. That's okay. It's okay. You know, it's poetic the visual license but yep. Anyway, all good was Sticky McStickStick. If ever you come around my place. I show people. There's Sticky McStickStick and Emma says Yes. All right, Michael. Okay, okay. Okay.
Actually, I also have another one because one of my friends was bit upset that I only had a Sticky McStickStick and thought I ought to have an arsenal stick. And so he sent it to me and said these called Gooner McStickStick. For those of you don't know Gooner is the nickname for Arsenal fans. So I also have Gooner McStickStick so there's a bit of rivalry by the front door when they sit there going "no me! me! me! Take me! and I go No. Quiet boys. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. And then just for Gooner McStickStick I go to who to be who to be Gooner and then he's okay.
Abigail Campbell 47:10
Great question. Thank you. I can see a follow up.
Audience member 47:16
I wrote a sequel to We're Going on a Bear Hunt!
Michael Rosen 47:19
I have written a sequel and and -
Audience member 47:20
I have!
Michael Rosen 47:22
You've written? Brilliant. Good. Lovely. Yes. I think your mom had to snatch the mic away from you - all right, darling. Great work my friend. Great work.
Audience member 47:39
I'll just pass him the microphone. But yes. Thank you for your talk. You don't have to answer this question. But would you like a jar of my homemade pickled cucumbers?
Michael Rosen 47:53
To bloody right, mate. Oh, very good.
Audience member 47:58
And do you have any allergies?
Michael Rosen 48:00
No! What have you put in it?
Audience member 48:05
Gherkins home grown organic. And then you have a choice that there's malt vinegar. Some have got dill in, some have got coriander. Some have got tarragen. But they've all got special ingredient. Dave's insanity sauce.
Michael Rosen 48:25
Dave's insanity sauce. It sounds fantastic. Wonderful malt vinegar. It's interesting. My mom made it in brine. She did it with saltwater. Yeah, that's right. There were two kinds the nobbly kind and the others that Jews called new greens, which you can taste completely different. Yes, that's fine.
Audience member 48:43
There's a card. It's got pickled cucumbers on the back. So I want them just let me know!
Michael Rosen 48:49
The pickled cucumbers. Yeah. Well, would you like to pass it forward? We're going on a bear hunt sequel, man. Lovely. Thank you very much. I will bend down but I can't be sure I'll be able to get up again. But yeah, that's right. Yeah,
Audience member 49:03
I'm visiting my daughter in London this Sunday. So she's just -
Michael Rosen 49:09
I can see that he also runs a Ceilegh band as well as a little advert for his Ceilegh band. So why would you play the... You're fiddle player? Yeah, right. Do you play Give me your hand. You know that one?
Audience member 49:24
I do. So yeah.
Michael Rosen 49:28
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Lovely. Good. I'm a bit of a fan of ours.
Audience member 49:32
...I'm waiting for someone to snatch the microphone. Yeah,
Michael Rosen 49:35
it's it's a very old Jewish thing. You know, Irish Kayleigh bands. It's a thing. Yeah, no, I thought Yeah.
Abigail Campbell 49:44
Fantastic series of questions. Thank you. I think you have to explain what you'd like ask your question.
Audience member 49:49
Thank you so much. It's really so insightful to hear what you're saying. As an occupational therapist. Holly, we thank you so much for talking about occupational therapy and physiotherapy. But we are often a very forgotten about profession when we talk about the NHS. But what I'd like to know is as a therapist we we love eat, drink, dress, move. We love talking about getting people up and doing what's important to them. What made you feel "I'm Michael again" during your rehab again during your therapy?
Michael Rosen 50:20
I think while I was at the rehab hospital, I don't, I'm not going to be horrible, but I don't think I did. I was so estranged from my body that I just felt I didn't ever feel that joy in during that time that each thing that you were asking me to do. I would diligently obliging - I don't think I ever felt to see that I'd all I could express was that I wasn't the same anymore. And I didn't know why. I didn't know when I was it's quite hard for me to explain that when I was in the rehab hospital, but I didn't know that I'd been in a coma for 40 days. I think Emma told me, but I just ignored her. Right? She said, Because she because it was during, you know, part for most people who were partying, nobody was allowed to come and see me. So But Emma came outside in the little garden and our kids did. And she said, I remember her saying you were in a coma for 40 days, Michael. And I went "right." It didn't mean anything.
Point is it was I mean, I should have thought about it. It was sunny, it was hot. It was late June, you know, June the 26 , you know, and when I got in, it was still felt like winter, you know, but it hadn't pieced it together at all. So what the OTs did, it was more the fact that every day you were setting me things that I could do, and that you were seeing what it was I couldn't do. And knowing what it was that - which muscle block or whatever that that I needed to do so that I've made light of the balloons thing you see this, but it was absolutely crucial. It was between two parallel, but as you know, two parallel bars, and she would make it as Ashima, who was also on the telly, made me kick the balloon. And I couldn't lift my leg up because all this had gone completely you see.
I don't think I sort of started feeling sort of that I was me again until I could walk. I set myself some laps around Muswell Hill where I live. And I set myself some laps to do when when I could do like two or three and then I would come home and go yes, I've walked around the block twice! So there was a bit of that going on. And that was quite exciting, those sort of breakthrough moments. And then in the paperback of the book. There's the first time I climb Muswell Hill, the clues in the name and it's quite steep. And it was quite funny actually what my son that at the time was living at the bottom of Muswell Hill and I went to see him. And then I said I think I'm going to have a go at climbing it, you see. And he said he said, you sure, Dad? I can run you home. I said no, I said I'm gonna give it a go because I've been doing some slopes. So anyway, that was at about half six. At 11, I texted him and said, I've just got in you see. Complete lies. It taken me about 10 minutes anyway...
So anyway, anyway, he text back "Oh, my God, I could have run you home!" I said sorry.... Anyway, we do that sort of thing to each other. I thought you'd think it was funny, but he didn't you just anyway. Yeah. So I think it was sort of moments like that rather than actually inside. Because, I mean, when I came out of rehab, I think I could walk probably... Yeah, about the length of this stage. That was the furthest I could walk. So they felt very strange that I was that kind of a person. So the breakthrough didn't happen then. But the point was, as I often say, you helped me to help myself. It's very different from the - you've got medicine that cures your stuff or tries to - and then therapy at this kind of therapy of physios and OTs. It's helping you help yourself, they can't do it. They can't, they can't. They're not making you move your arm. If they move your arm, it's not you doing it. So everything you've got to learn how to do. So it's actually what your mind does. And whether you're prepared to they say, you know, do that 20 times, then do it or get on the exercise bike, then you do it. So people who don't tend to go the other way. So I kind of learned that. So it's to helping you help yourself. That was the crucial thing to learn. Which is you know, a bad for a 74 year old. Yeah, a degree in helping me help myself. Yeah.
Abigail Campbell 54:53
I think at the risk of going over slightly. We've got maybe time for two more very quick questions. So there's a lot of points going on there. And then someone has the mic already here.
Audience member 55:03
Hi, Michael. Did the hummus live up to your expectations?
Michael Rosen 55:07
Oh, yeah!
Audience member 55:09
And the question I wanted to add to that is what little simple pleasures did you have now that you that might be because of your experience? You know, when things - traumatic things happen to people- they do tend to appreciate things, not just the big stuff, awesome NHS, but as well as hummus, what do you know, find pleasure in?
Michael Rosen 55:27
Well, Emma had planted some thyme, little plants on the little balcony, we've got, some thyme and some rosemary, I think and some mint, and I remember just sort of squeezing it, you know, so that it wets up you know, so, like that. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brilliant. And so, I think that was that was a sort of breakthrough moment. Really? Because, obviously, you know, hospitals, don't they spell our hospitals? Which is fine. But I think that was that was one thing. And raisins. Yes. I have taken zero notice of the speech and language therapist, and I do eat raisins all the time, particularly chopped up with bananas, raisins and bananas. It's one of my favorites. Yep. So yes.
Abigail Campbell 56:20
Somebody at the back. Yes. But over there, please. I think we'll have to make that but last question. I'm afraid.
Audience member 56:27
What made you want to become an author?
Michael Rosen 56:30
What made me want to become a dolphin?
Audience member 56:36
What made you want to become an author?
Michael Rosen 56:38
An author, an author, right? I think it was probably my mum and dad, my mum and dad and my brother. They all love books. And so on the sort of youngest on the line there. My mum and dad used to they were both teachers. Think about that. Come in from school, they say what did you do in school today? And they meant it. Oh, you know, stuff. What sort of stuff? Kind of history... History. That's really interesting. What sort of history? I don't know, just sort of history. History. Chartist. Chartist! They're really interesting. What do we got to do with the Chartist? So I don't know. It's an essay, I think it's called. Why did Chartism Fail? Fail? Chartism didn't fail. Just come over here. I've got a book for you see here, Why Chartism Didn't Fail for Michael to help him with his essays. So that's what it was like. But my mum and dad love poetry and stories and plays and Shakespeare and all that sort of thing. And my mum, she was quite intriguing really, quite mysterious. You know, she shouldn't be suddenly she loved knitting. She loved knitting my mom. She knitted loads and loads of stuff when she'd sit there knitting, and suddenly she'd look up and go "tread softly because you tread on my dreams...."
???
What did you say, Mum?! No, no, nothing...
My dad, my dad loved sawing. I mean, he was a sort of DIY freak before sort of DIY freaks existed, really, but he was always sawing something. What are you doing? Just sawing up some stuff. And then in the middle of it all, you'd go. Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day till the last syllable....
So they were quite strange in that way. And then my brother would be imitating my dad, my dad if he wanted to. If he wanted you to be quiet. They weren't very repressive my parents at all. But if my dad wants you to be quiet, he got like this: "The noise..." That's all he did! Just "the noise....!" So my brother used to get it up as an act. You know, we'd be making noise in the bedroom my brother would go: "The noise....!" So like, if it was breakfast, you know, and we made me and my brother making a bit of noise at breakfast or something. You see, the old man behind the paper was bringing the paper down just about to go "the noise...!" like my brother be on the other side of the table going ..."the noise..." My dad would be left there with his hand in midair going....?
Anyway, yeah. So I didn't realize that you could write down this stuff. But that was because my brother started doing it. Also, I kind of learned it from my brother really, that you could write down these things. But he didn't do it. He I mean he instead going into cabaret, he became a paleontologist or fossil, as I say. My brother became a fossil. He doesn't think that's funny. So I better not say that.
Abigail Campbell 1:00:14
Yeah, I guess I fear we should draw to a close. But we have a lot to thank your parents for I think, Michael, yes, while you while you're accepting business cards, I believe somebody put that book on the desk with a hope that you might read.
Michael Rosen 1:00:28
Yes. And the editor of it is the doctor who came around with the oximeter who saved my life. And this is a wonderful collection of poems by people who work in the NHS. Apart from me, I don't work in the NHS, or they do now though, don't I? Fellow the royal college....
These are the hands that touch us first, feel your head, find the pulse, and make your bed. These are the hands that tap your back. Test the skin, hold your arm, wheel the bin, change the bulb, fix the drip, pour the jug, replace your hip. These are the hands that fill the bath, mop the floor, flick the switch, soothe the sore, burn the swabs, give us a jab, throw out sharps, design the lab. And these are the hands that stop the leaks, empty the pan, wipe the pipes, carry the can, clamp the veins, make the cast, log the dose and touch us last.
I going to make that into a film. I'm going to do that. Like I do my poems on my website. I'm just going to do do them and read them straight to camera in the first week in December. So that will go up on my website fairly soon.
Abigail Campbell 1:02:12
Thank you, we look forward to that. Thank you very, very much again, Michael it's my privilege and a pleasure to hear you tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all for your questions and taking time.
Shantel Edwards 1:02:29
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Birmingham Lit Fest Presents... podcast. Follow us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook at BhamLitFest. All information about the festival and upcoming events can be found on our website www.Birminghamliteraturefestival.org. The Birmingham Lit Fest Presents... podcast is produced by 11 C and Birmingham Podcast Studios for Writing West Midlands.