Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Hi Tom.

Hey Paul.

This is an exciting special
episode of our show.

It is.

Listeners might already detect an
even worse audio quality than usual

because we are in a moving car driving
back from Tahoe area to San Francisco.

This is us enforcing stoic attitudes
on all of you because you've been

complaining about our audio quality.

Yes.

But little do you know
it could get much worse.

Yes, and that's why we're here.

That's what we're here to explore
today and possibly also make

ourselves carsick while we try to
read in a moving car this this text.

Yes we we're coming back from a
snowshoeing trip in the Sierra Mountains.

Yeah, and we stayed at some hot springs.

That's right.

So if you're a cocksucker.

I was reminded actually of something
in one of our very first episodes.

There was this line that for whatever
reason has lingered with me, where Marcus

said that like one of the, I forget
exactly what he says, but basically

he's describing how he wants to live.

And one of the things he lists
is no bathing at strange hours.

And I think we're definitely
guilty of bathing at strange hours.

This weekend.

That's a good memory.

Yeah.

So I, I don't know why that stuck with me.

I guess this whole weekend has been yeah.

Not a very stoic one.

According to him.

Yeah.

We had lots of junk food, basically.

Yeah.

We watched the Super Bowl.

Yeah.

What do you think You're our
resident historian here, Paul?

Yeah.

Marcus's relation to the baths.

I feel like the baths were a thing.

No, that's a good, that's a good question.

Yeah.

I think he.

That's what that one line certainly
felt like, but it also implies that

there is a proper way to do them.

It's just you don't do
them at the wrong time.

Seems unlikely.

Yeah.

Pretty stinky guy, probably.

Yeah.

Almost certainly.

Yeah we're gonna get right in.

Yeah?

Okay, yeah.

Or is there something you wanted
to bring to the episode today?

No, I guess the one other thing
I would just briefly mention is

that we have an audience, which is
not typically true of our podcast.

Pazza and David are being very silent
in the car, but if they want to, If

they want to, If they want to laugh or
make weird noises in the background,

I think they're welcome to do that.

Anything that takes the burden off
of Paul and me to fill airtime here.

Is completely welcome from my perspective.

But they don't have microphones,
so don't expect them to sound good.

Yeah.

At all.

Who'll be loving my life is
munching chips at the front.

Industriously.

Nom.

Paul and I are holding our
microphones in a very, In our laps.

Suggestive way in the backseat of the car.

There's no other real way to do it.

And now it's going to take a call.

Okay.

Yeah.

So interlude for a call.

Yeah.

It's been a little while
since we recorded, two weeks.

Paul was grumpy on the last episode.

I was grumpy on the last episode.

I think he's feeling better now.

It's been a bit of a tough period for me.

Okay, we're back.

We are having Vietnamese for lunch.

Listener.

That's the update.

Know that.

Yeah.

I guess on my end, maybe the thing that
I'm bringing to this episode is that it

has felt, Things have felt a bit darker
recently, things have felt a bit harder

with some, I don't know, some lower
than projected growth of the company.

, so I suppose that's a time for stoicism.

Yeah, have you found yourself
thinking about it at all?

I think what I've found is that all these
philosophies are they share this core

set of truths, which I do think are keep
expectations low embrace the fact that

you can't control everything in life.

Those truths are, I think, wonderful.

And then some of the things that are
unique to Marcus, and the flavors

that he brings to it, and the things
that are unique to the actual stoics.

Of ancient times.

I connect less with those things.

Yeah, so I'm I've been enjoying reading
a book called When Things Fall Apart.

And the premise there is, when things
fall apart, you should lean into it and

experience it and not try to fight it.

And, because you don't really
know, what's good and what's bad.

And the analogy, the analogy she uses
is, It's like, she, her friend who, has

AIDS and explained to her that this is
the best thing that's ever happened to

him because for the first time ever he's
experiencing every moment, for what it

is and appreciating life to the fullest.

And, that's the, it's not quite what
Marcus is not one thing I found is

that there's a way to have a positive
spin and Marcus doesn't really try

to do positive spin on these things.

It's just something
that's very perspective.

Yeah.

So I like the positive spin.

I appreciate that.

So maybe that's one thing that, that's
a little bit different, but at the same

time, there's so much that's shared
between, Buddhist philosophy, and Hindu

philosophy and Those core underlying
beliefs are, I think, really great.

That's interesting.

I think maybe that's something we
can tease out in this episode a

little bit as we read is maybe what
feels specific to stoicism and what

feels like the more universal stuff.

Sure.

Yeah.

I think the analogy of, be a rock,
have the waves crash over you

is implicitly like unpleasant.

I don't think it's fun
to be alone in the ocean.

So that, yeah.

Life is suffering is a theme amongst
a lot of belief systems, but.

Yeah.

But this one especially.

Marcus, although I feel like we've
discussed in previous episodes, he

oscillates a little bit on that.

Sometimes it is be a rock in the storm,
but sometimes it is a little more

like just do what feels natural to
you and that's all you're meant to do.

And that to me can have a more positive
implication than it's not just.

Suffer and suffer, and
that's everything there is.

Yeah.

It is a bit insulting to, to expect
the person who just found out they have

AIDS to realize how wonderful that is.

Yeah.

Fair enough.

Shall we jump into it?

Let's jump in.

Okay, cool.

I believe we are starting with
bullet point seventeen here in book

five, and it's a nice short one.

It's a nice one.

It is crazy to want what is impossible.

And impossible.

For the wicked not to do the wicked.

The wicked.

We haven't really been
introduced to the Wicked before.

I love the Wicked.

Yeah.

I, it's weird.

It's such a weird translation.

I would expect that word to be
the weak or the weak willed.

Oh, interesting.

Something like that.

To me, it translates closer to evil here.

Sure.

But yeah.

I think that's what it translates to.

Yeah.

But I'm surprised that he would say that.

Yeah.

Because I think it's very natural
to want what's impossible.

I think that's what most of us do.

And You think so?

I mean I guess, to have the nice, yeah,
the nice The two kids in the front lawn

and the whatever, like But part of the
reason we want those things is actually

that they don't feel impossible, I think.

They feel like They don't feel
impossible, but they often are.

You can't control that.

Yeah.

You can't control fear.

It is, yeah, it is crazy
to want what is impossible.

To me though, reads more as Just
things that are straight up impossible

and you know they're impossible even
at the time you're wishing for them.

Yes, I'm interested in
the second sentence.

I don't really get it.

The wicked people always, they
can't help but want the impossible.

He's probably talking about death.

He loves to think about death, right?

It's crazy to want the impossible,
which is to live forever.

Yeah, okay.

And wicked people.

And the wicked are always, yeah,
they're wicked because they're

afraid of their own mortality.

And therefore do wicked things.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's nice that he wrote
in this way, to himself.

About the wicked.

And the sort of, I forget what
the phrase is for this kind of

sentence, but, or this kind of there
and back structure to Oh, I see.

To prose.

Yeah.

It's nice.

Okay, let's see if we've
learned any more about it.

What the wicked are like here.

Number 18, nothing happens to
anyone that he can't endure.

The same thing happens to other people
and they weather it unharmed out of

sheer obliviousness or because they
wanna display quote unquote character.

His wisdom really so much weaker
than ignorance and vanity.

Nothing happens to anyone
that he can't endure.

That seems okay, that's pretty textbook.

That's pretty textbook.

Yeah, we're all, it's all,
you're given this stuff.

This is the kind of advice
that you hate receiving.

It's hey, I'm having a really bad day.

Yeah.

Nothing happens to anyone
that they can't endure.

It's not the least sympathetic, yes,
the least sympathetic response possible.

Yeah.

The same thing happens to other
people when they weather it unarmed.

Parsing that, it's like, there's
something that he's suffering

that he's Hey Marcus, chin up.

The fact that you've been handed
this means you can't endure it.

And look, other people are doing it,
either because they're dumbasses, or

because whatever they want to prove.

Yeah.

I guess ignorance and vanity leads you
to believe that you can endure something.

I see, okay.

And wisdom is knowing you can.

So yes, can you endure it with wisdom?

Wisdom instead of with
ignorance and vanity.

Okay.

I still feel like this is, I
feel like this is level two, the

kind of, Oh, it'll all be okay.

Thinking, think about
the worst case scenario.

And this is the standard way to
like, when something bad happens,

the first thing I do is, okay, what
is the worst thing that can happen?

Oh, it's not that bad.

But then, I do think there's a
level above that even where you

lean into this bad thing happening
and frame it more positively and

all these different things this is,
this definitely feels level 2 to me.

You're saying this is, when you say
level 2 you mean the leaning in kind?

Level 1 is something bad happens, oh no,
level 2 is something bad happens, but

what's the worst thing that can happen?

Okay, it's not that bad.

And then level three is,
What can I take from this?

What can I take from this?

And, this is actually It's
gonna make meaning of it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

It's about how to endure
as opposed to How to savor.

Yeah, exactly.

Yep.

Number 19.

Things have no hold on the soul.

They have no access to it
and cannot move or direct it.

It is moved and directed by itself alone.

It takes the things before it and
interprets them as it sees fit.

Okay.

The soul.

The soul piece.

Yeah.

We've been hearing stuff about the
soul being separate from the body.

He has an interesting concept of
the way the soul and the mind relate

to each other, is my recollection.

Which we think of, or I think of,
naturally as being pretty separate things.

But I think I remember in our last
episode him talking about the way

that your thoughts feed your soul
and end up shaping your soul.

Sure.

Which is, I think, a little bit
different than the the modern

western conception of the soul.

Which is, it's like the indefinable,
or like the, The essential part of

you that really can't be changed.

I guess that is consistent with what he's
saying here in a way, that this is in

more keeping with the modern conception.

Untouchable your soul no matter
what happens to you, you can still

control the quality of your soul.

Yep.

That is That's nice, yeah.

You're in your wheelhouse.

That is a nice, that is a nice sentiment.

That's that's a control
the things you can control.

Concepts.

That's him.

Yeah.

We're 20.

In a sense, people are
our proper occupation.

Our job is to do them
good and put up with them.

But when they obstruct our proper
tasks, they become irrelevant

to us, like sun, wind, animals.

Our actions may be impeded by them,
but there can be no impeding our

intentions or our dispositions
because we can accommodate and adapt.

The mind adapts and converts its,
to its own purposes, the ops force.

The impediment to action advances action.

What stands in the way becomes the way.

Whoa.

Getting very poetic
here at the end, Marcus.

I like that last bit, okay.

Yeah.

I really love when he says, It
just talks about people in this

overarching, they're all terrible way.

Our job is to do them good and put up with
them is maybe the clearest like statement

of how he feels about what his duty to
other people is that we've ever heard.

But it's nice.

This is, like sometimes the previous
couple of entries here feel pretty

cold and unsympathetic and this
is he's looking down on people

a little bit, but he is like.

Yeah, but in my heart, the most important
thing is to do them good and not

let them get under my skin too much.

What does it mean to
obstruct our proper tasks?

Yeah, that's an interesting question.

My interpretation of that is if he
has a conniving court minister who is

impeding his ability to do the things
that are necessary for the empire.

Then they become like
sun, wind, or animals?

Yeah, I thought that was strange.

They become irrelevant to us.

I think he means, There's an
interesting translation, maybe going

a little more than relevant, yeah.

Put differently, pleasing a person like
that is no longer your primary occupation.

Sure.

So our actions may be impeded by
them, but there can be no impeding

our intentions or our dispositions.

Because we're in control of them you, Mr.

Conniving Court Minister, cannot
stop me from doing good, or

doing my duty for the Empire.

Yep.

Because we can accommodate and
adapt, and by the way, asshole, your

effort to stand in my way actually
advances my actions, and by, by

thwarting me, you became the way.

You became the way?

Yeah.

This is pretty defiant, I feel like.

That's an interesting reading

I wonder if there's a kinder reading,
so people are our proper occupation.

Yeah.

You have to work through people.

You can't go around people,
it's not the right thing to do.

And, it's our job to do them
good and put up with them.

Yeah.

And, they shouldn't be treated
like sun, wind, or animals.

They become irrelevant.

I see.

Okay, yeah.

Yeah, so don't let them do this.

Don't let them obstruct our proper tasks
and turn into something irrelevant.

Yeah, don't view, don't take that,
that conniving court minister

and Turn him into the enemy.

I say.

That kind of court minister is the
way, so maybe your job here is to

understand why they are that way,
and to get to the root cause of the

underlying issue, something like that.

Or to accommodate and adapt, basically.

Oh, this guy is annoying?

You could be like, hey, fuck you, dude.

Or I could be like, hey, how
can, keep working with him,

he's my, yeah, I actually prefer
your reading there, I think.

Yeah.

That, that's what he's, why there's so
much emphasis here on about, even if

they're trying to thwart us, they can't
really thwart us, so we can just, we

should adapt to serving their purposes.

I think maybe this becomes
really clear if you consider

that you can have anyone killed.

Yeah.

Like, when the alternative is just kill
them, then, and it's pretty easy, right?

And then you don't have
to put up with them.

And then you continue on your way.

This is a big realization that, you know
what, that's not the right thing to do.

Even though, they are
impeding me, even though

Me.

Yeah.

He's a merciful guy.

Some, but it's an especially yeah.

Altruistic or Yeah.

Do good by the citizens of the empire.

Yeah.

Because he, he loves that theme
of everyone else is an idiot,

but it's not their fault.

Yes.

Pat them on the heads, but it's okay.

Yeah, exactly.

They don't know any better.

Yeah.

So that's, this is a
continuation maybe of that theme.

Yeah.

One, one last little
thing I picked up on here.

He always, every list of.

Things that every list Marcus
generates is an interesting list.

Yeah.

Sun, wind, and animals as a thing, list
of things that are irrelevant to us.

It doesn't totally hit the modern ear.

No.

We think of animals as being pretty
different from the sun and the wind

in terms of what our obligations are.

Yeah.

Or at least I do.

Yeah.

Animals deserve more respect
than the sun and the wind, yeah.

Yeah, that's true.

I'm not sure there's much to say
about that other than maybe he didn't

have a lot of regard for animals.

Yeah.

Yeah, he likes that speck of
Spittle on the boar's jaw.

Spittle on the boar's jaw.

But I guess that and the sun
seems very important to me.

Yeah.

I guess you don't notice it.

That's the point.

You don't notice it.

And it's not your job To do it.

It's doing its own thing.

Yeah.

And so are animals.

I guess that's true.

And, that's fair.

And, yeah.

And it's not our job to do them good.

Basically that's the big difference.

And we don't want to
treat humans like animals.

Yeah.

Number 21.

Honor that which is great.

That, on whose business all things are
employed, and by whom they are governed.

And honor what is greatest in
yourself, the part that shares

its nature with that power.

All things, in you as well, are
employed about its business,

And your life is governed by it.

Lovely Marcus entry, where
there's an it's that is vaguely

introduced in the first sentence.

Yeah.

Every subsequent sentence is
referring back to that same

it, which is a vague notion.

What is he talking about?

I don't What is greatest in the world?

There's a thing that is the
greatest in the world, and he

doesn't explicitly say what it is.

I think he is, to me I,
Like logos or something.

Or his concept of capital and nature
and the sort of order of the world,

there, there is something in the world
whose business all things are employed

in, and by whom they are all governed.

So like the laws of nature and the
world that the gods have created.

So honor that, and also the part
of you that is a part of that.

I think is what's being said in a very
convoluted couple of sentences here.

This is really weird.

I gotta say, it's something that I feel
like would get marked off in like middle

school English class at this point.

What does it refer to, Marcus?

Yeah.

But.

I guess we've had a lot of
practice on how to write stuff.

Yeah.

In the past 2, 000 years, yes.

It's possible, it's like they
didn't have that practice yet.

There had already been some great
writers, I think, by his time.

Cool.

I think we think of as
having been, I don't know.

You're maybe stylistically,
they're quite different from us.

As your point.

Yeah, but concepts of writing existed.

He wasn't just inventing how
you should put words on a page.

I think this is the oldest
book I've ever read though.

That's interesting.

It's probably true for me as well.

Yeah.

I guess what strikes me as maybe peculiar
about that is that some of the sentences

still totally slap in modern English.

Even the last entry, the impediment
to action advances action.

What stands in the way becomes the way.

It's lovely.

that you can write now, and
then this one is brutal.

And it's also a philosophy
specific problem in a way, I think.

What stands in the way becomes
the way, is a great quote.

Yeah, beautiful.

Yeah, totally.

That kicks ass.

Alright, 22.

Number 22.

If it does not harm the community,
it does not harm its members.

When you think you've been
injured, apply this rule.

If the community isn't
injured by it, neither am I.

And if it is, anger is not the answer.

Show the offender where he went wrong.

Okay.

Okay, I think there's a lot of justice
getting meted out in the court of

Marcus Aurelius here because there's a
lot of people who seem to be injuring

other people or Marcus himself.

Yeah.

I'm always interested if it's Marcus
himself who was injured and is

reminding himself how to handle future
injuries or if he just observed an

injury in his court or whatever.

Yeah.

Okay, so this is making a A
communist statement, right?

I was thinking that too.

One person does not matter,
it's just about the whole Yeah.

I don't think this way, personally.

I don't agree with it.

Or it's just It depends
on who's being hurt.

It's backwards logic to me.

If I am injured, then
the community is injured.

It's a more natural way
of ordering the logic.

Sure, yeah.

If the community is not
injured, then neither am I.

There's a logical name for that.

You wanna guess what happened here?

Show the offender where he went wrong.

Yeah somebody clearly acted out in anger.

It seems like maybe Marcus was angry and
now has regrets about having been angry.

And the community Okay, so I'm
guessing this one is not about Marcus.

My feeling based on the tone of
this is somebody whiny in his

court was like oh boo hoo person X.

Yeah, ate my rations or
stole my flint or whatever.

Yes, someone ate someone else's rations.

Yeah.

Accidentally.

Yeah, it did not harm the community.

It harmed that one guy's dinner plans.

Yes, but one guy's
belly was twice as full.

So the community is fine because
the community as a whole has

eaten the same amount of food.

Food as it would have otherwise.

Yes.

So do not be angry.

Show the offender.

Show the offender where he went wrong.

Yes.

Show the empty belly of the yes.

Of the one guy.

Yes.

This is wisdom, very wise.

Yes.

Okay.

Number 23.

Keep in mind how fast
things pass by and are gone.

Those that are now and those to come.

Existence flows past us like a river.

The what is in constant flux.

The why has a thousand variations.

Nothing is stable, not
even what's right here.

The infinity of past and
future gapes before us.

A chasm whose depths we cannot see.

So it would take an idiot To feel
self important, or distress, or

any indignation either, as if the
things that irritate us lasted.

Something especially poetic about
keeping in mind how fast things pass

by and are gone when we're driving
at 60 miles an hour on the highway.

We're having a very
literal experience of this.

Right now, okay, David is saying
that we're going Haiti, and he's

possibly speeding up to make us
experience this even more poetically.

Uh, this line, the infinity of
past and future gapes before us.

Yeah.

A chasm of depths we cannot see.

That's awesome.

Very epic.

Yeah.

I the thing that caught my eye here
is the what is in constant flux,

the why has a thousand variations.

Yeah.

I could have also easily understood
him to say that the why is constant.

That the why doesn't have
variations, actually.

I'm curious what he meant by that.

What do you think he means by that?

I get that he's saying that the form
of the world in existence is constantly

changing and everything is in permanence.

But he also has this idea
that the why is changing.

Which is, that's less intuitive to me.

Is that unlike Marcus?

I interpret it as, everyone
has a different purpose.

Perspective and it's really hard to Yeah.

Actually get to the bottom of the truth.

Yeah.

But it is a little bit different
than what, how he normally talks.

He does, I do get the sense
that he believes there is truth.

And there is right and wrong.

Yeah.

And it seems based on the way the sentence
is structured to me, it seems like he's

talking about the why of existence itself.

Oh sure.

Yeah.

Which different people do, have
different reasons for existence.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Okay, so we're referring not to the
underlying truth, but the way that people

formulate that truth for themselves.

That's how I interpret it.

Yeah.

I think that makes more sense.

'cause I, the notion
that the underlying like.

Reasons for existence or whatever the
truth that underpins existence is changing

is hard to wrap my head around Yeah, it
doesn't feel like what Marcus believes.

Yeah, so you shouldn't feel distressed.

Yeah, you're an idiot if you feel self
important Or indignant yeah at all.

Yeah, because all these things don't
last Yeah, he's back to scolding

himself Like yeah, this isn't very
human to feel these things Yeah.

But, yeah.

I guess that, the connective tissue is
that for the most part, humans are idiots.

Yeah.

Like, when you're being
this, that's what you are.

And, just remember that, just
because you had that annoying meeting

at work, yeah, the infinity of
past and future gates before you.

Yeah.

It's too bad there's no reference to the
beauty that's what I mean by level two.

Yeah.

It's just, you're in a river.

It could be like, hey,
awesome, rivers are fun.

But we don't have that.

We just have, you idiot.

You idiot.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Classic.

I think we're, I'm detecting
in general that we're in a

sort of Yeah, darker period.

Moody or Marcus at the moment.

Something is working.

Yeah.

He's got a lot of books left,
but there was that period where

the empire almost split in two
and there was Mewni and, yeah.

Some bad stuff happened for sure.

Some bad stuff happened.

Yeah.

Asks you if you're going
to write a book like this.

Yep.

Number 24.

Remember, matter, how
tiny your share of it.

Wow.

Time, how brief and fleeting
your allotment of it.

Fate, how small a role you play in it.

Great.

Yeah.

Okay, yes.

More tiny.

Yes, Marcus really
needs to not feel small.

He needs to really be reminded of
he is impermanent and unimportant.

Yeah.

It's nice though.

Matter how tiny your share of it is sweet.

Time how brief and fleeting
your allotment of it.

Fate, that one's interesting.

How small a role you play in fate.

Yeah, that does feel not
quite like the others.

Yeah, to me, fate, when he invokes
it this way, means the kind

of overall fate of the world.

Narrative of the world?

Yeah, the trajectory of all things.

Yeah.

Not your particular fate.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's interesting in a way
that he thinks that you play a role in

all, or I guess you, play a role is a
good word for his concept of it, because

you just A part of the little fabric,
but you're not really I don't think

in his concept you're doing all that
much to influence the course of events.

One way or another.

I guess you do by either
doing your duty or not.

Or whatever.

Why, yeah.

I do think that third one is a big
deal for him because he is the Emperor.

Yeah, so the you here
is a very specific you.

Exactly.

Even you, Marcus, play a
very small role in Fate.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, I think that's right.

Number 25.

Oh, I love this.

Yes, I'm excited.

We are going down a hole here, Marcus.

Yeah.

Number 25.

Other people hurt me,
that's their problem.

Their character and actions are not mine.

What is done to me is ordained by nature.

What I do by my own.

Okay, the first part, I
think is very healthy.

It's what you try to explain.

But yeah, it's hard to explain.

Yeah.

And then the second part.

He's being bullied.

Yeah.

Who is bullying him?

That's the one story we hear, right?

I told you about the the
jokes at his expense.

Oh yes.

At the theater.

About his wife.

Yeah.

About his wife cheating on him.

But, what is done to me
is ordained by nature.

Okay, prescribed by nature.

So it's I don't know.

Okay, and what I do by my own.

Yes.

What does that mean?

That's a slightly weird clause,
but what he's saying is, he's

contrasting the things that are done
to him with the things that he does.

So there's, there, there are
the things that are done to me,

those are ordained by nature.

Oh, I see, okay, got it,
that's, that sounds reasonable.

It is a hard sentence to
parse though, I think.

Sure, yeah.

So he's saying, it's the I cannot
control the things that are done to me.

Boiling stoicism down
into a single sentence.

Yeah.

Basically.

Yeah.

No, that's cool.

That first part is so powerful, right?

We hear it as kids.

Yeah.

Other people hurt me,
that's their problem.

But it is quite difficult to internalize.

Yeah, it's also like It's their
problem, but it is also your problem.

I think it's like a little simplistic.

That's true.

It, yeah.

Yeah, if it's really a meaningful hurt,
then they have created a problem for you.

Yeah, if someone stabs you with a spear.

It's it's their problem, but it's
also a little bit your problem now.

There's such a this gets back to the very
first questions we asked on this podcast.

How sensitive is this?

Is he a Yeah.

He might be very sensitive.

That's, this one reads as so
sensitive to me for an adult man

to be writing in his journal.

Yeah.

So other people hurt me,
that's their problem.

Seems just very sensitive to me.

Yeah.

But at other times he is, maybe
that's why he's so obsessed with Sure.

Letting it all flow
off of him or whatever.

Sure.

Yeah, I guess A more imperial line
of thinking would be something

like, So other people hurt me, Part
of my job is, in this position, is

to endure those kinds of trials.

And that's part of the role, and
people need a scapegoat, and,

My job it's about me controlling
my actions and responses to it.

Like that, I feel like that feels like
a much more I think he generously,

I think he maybe is what is done
to me is ordained by nature.

It might include that.

Yeah.

Okay, sure, yeah.

Nature as in, the nature of
the relationship of our Yeah.

Of our positions.

I have been put into this position
by nature, and so part of my

What I get That's their problem.

Is people laughing for me
because my wife is cheating.

Laughing at me because
my wife is cheating.

And that's their problem is like a
little bit, it's a little bit like yeah,

I don't know, just vindictive, right?

Howdy.

Yeah, howdy.

Yeah.

But, alright, yeah.

Interesting.

Number 26.

Oh, here we go.

The mind is the ruler of the soul.

It should remain unstirred by
agitations of the flesh, gentle and

violent ones alike, not mingling
with them, but fencing itself off and

keeping those feelings in their place.

When they make their way into your
thoughts, through the sympathetic

link between mind and body, don't
try to resist the sensation.

Oh.

The sensation is natural, but
don't let the mind start in with

judgements, calling it good or bad.

Hey, this is great!

Whoa, interesting.

This is actually I think, very
modern psychology type stuff.

What you're, what Pasa tells me, what
you're supposed to do is like You

welcome the thought, you open the door,
you let it sit down and it's okay.

It's okay that it's there.

You recognize that it's there.

You don't pretend that there's
nobody at your door knocking.

Yes.

Yeah, I agree.

He's describing what is, to me,
seems like a very adult behavior.

Yeah.

Which is to, yes, you naturally, you have
a body which generates these thoughts.

Emotions.

Yeah.

And what your mind's job is
to see those emotions and say,

okay, I have these emotions.

I'm experiencing them.

That's natural.

Yeah.

But I also have a mind with
thoughts, and I can have, I can

think clearly, I can make judgment
by recognizing those emotions.

Oh yeah.

And saying, okay, I'm feeling this
about this thing, but that doesn't.

Prevent me from being
a rational human being.

Yep, I like that.

There is some language in here that
briefly scared me where he says

that you should, The mind should
fence itself off from emotions.

That's where I was also rolling
my eyes a little bit, yeah.

But I think I now get what he means,
which is not, fencing, I don't know, I

don't totally agree with the language
of fencing itself off, again that might

be translation, but it's more like yeah.

Don't jump to good and bad.

Evoking a sort of external
observation kind of idea, yeah.

I do that last little bit about,
Don't let the mind start in with

judgments calling it good or bad.

Better to neutrally observe your emotions
and say hello this emotion and then

let your mind stay rational as it can.

Yep.

Yeah, nice.

The first sentence here is
very interesting though.

It's, he introduces this as the
mind is the ruler of the soul but

he's really talking, the rest of the
entry to me seems like it's about the

relationship between the mind and the
body or the mind and the emotions.

So it's interesting where
his concept of the soul.

I think soul is like
morality or something.

Yeah, but it seems like it's related
to your emotional regulation, too.

That's how I'm parsing this.

I think what you're saying is true, too.

But I think also he's saying like, when
you have Control your thoughts, basically.

Yeah.

But it's interesting that what
he describes as agitation.

We might think of those as being
quite separate from your soul.

Or I might intuitively be
like, getting angry or horny or

whatever it is he's describing.

That to me does not feel like
my soul speaking necessarily.

But I think the way he's written
this, it implies that he thinks that

those agitations are a reflection of
your soul, at least to some extent.

Oh, I didn't read it that way.

That's good.

Okay.

The mind is the ruler of the soul.

It should remain unstirred
by agitations of the flesh.

What I'm seeing is you have agitations
of, you have the body on one side,

and then you have the mind, and then
you have the soul on the other end.

And anything that's being passed from the
body to the soul goes through the mind.

Because the mind is the ruler of the soul.

I see.

Ruler.

Interesting.

That's, anyway, that's how I read it.

Yeah okay, I like your So don't
let the mind start in with

judgments calling it good or bad.

I see.

So that those things don't
get passed to the soul.

I see.

Oh yeah, okay, that's
an interesting reading.

That's not how I was reading it initially.

Yeah, the mind is like a sort
of intermediary of the soul.

Is how you're describing it.

It's Yeah, ruler's a funny word.

It's a weird word, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, interesting.

I still think, yeah, his cots the
way he organizes the relationship

between those entities.

I wish we had a map.

It's still not totally intuitive.

Yeah, I wish we had a little
He's got an interesting Yeah.

Perspective.

Yeah.

Number 27 to live with the Gods
and to do that is to show them that

your soul accepts what it is given
and does what the spirit requires.

The Spirit, God gave each of us
to lead and guide us a fragment

of himself, which is our mind.

So that first clause, to live
with the gods, is in quotes here.

It seems like he's maybe referring to
some well known phrase or something

about, this is a way you want to live.

And then he's saying,
here's how you do it.

You use that little gift that
they gave you, which is your mind.

That's nice, Marcus.

Yeah.

I like 28.

Sorry.

Okay, yeah, sure.

Let's get from the very heady to
something a little more specific.

There we go.

Number 28.

Don't be irritated at
people's smell or bad breath.

Huh.

What's the point?

With that mouth.

With those armpits, they're
gonna produce that odor.

Love it.

But they have a brain.

Can't they figure it out?

Can't they recognize the problem?

So you have a brain as well.

Good for you.

Then use your bodgic to awaken his.

Show him.

Make him realize it.

If he'll listen, then you'll
have solved that problem.

Without anger.

I love it.

Okay, so there are some smelly
people in Marcus's life.

Very practical problem solving.

Yes, they have a brain.

Can't they figure it out?

No.

They But you have a brain as
well, so make them realize it.

But without anger.

Without anger.

Neutrally present to them the facts of
their bad breath and smelly armpits.

Yeah.

And make them realize
what a problem that is.

Yes.

Your breath is smelly.

Yes.

I am not angry about it.

Yes.

But I'm using my brain.

Use your logic to awaken his.

Hello, I am awakening your
logic about your smelly armpits.

I would like you to use logic to no
longer have those things in my presence.

I like the idea that he
might not listen, too.

Show him, make him realize
that if he'll listen, then

you'll have solved the problem.

Implication being, he might say, fuck you.

To the emperor, no less.

Yeah.

Okay So it does seem we were
just talking about how much, I

wonder what the standard here is.

Yeah.

It must be very smelly breath.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

They must all just be
so sticky in general.

I can't imagine, I'm impressed he can even
piece out the mouth versus the armpits.

It feels like everyone would
just be a big sticky cloud.

Yeah, like a circle.

Yeah, I like Here's an interpretation
that's a little bit more aggressive.

Okay.

With that mouth!

Yes, I was also Those armpits!

I agree that I was also He's got
someone really ugly in his life.

Look at this person's fucked up armpits.

Of course they smell bad.

But they have a brain.

Yeah.

Can't they figure it out?

Okay this entry is also,
sometimes Marcus does this in a

way I don't totally understand.

There's 28 and then there's 28A.

Oh my goodness.

We have a 28A here, which is simply,
Neither player king, nor prostitute.

What?

Maybe because it's an A, it's related?

I think so, yes.

I think we have to interpret that
as Who's not neither a player king

I think he's saying you should be
You're not a What is a player king?

That's hyphenated.

Yeah.

Player king.

He should be neither a
player king nor a prostitute.

I think is what he's saying.

Okay here we go.

A prostitute is paid to not get angry.

Oh yeah, so we just ignore the problem.

Yes.

Ignore the problem.

And then player king, let's assume
that just means someone who would not

ignore the problem and get really upset.

Yes.

Would get angry.

Yes.

Okay.

I like it.

I don't know that deserves
its own bullet point, Marcus.

I think maybe Just appending
that to the end of the original

bullet point might have sufficed.

Yep.

Should we do one more here?

One more, let's do it.

Number 29.

You can live here as you
expect to live there.

And if they won't let you, you can
debart life now and forfeit nothing.

If the smoke makes me cough, I can leave.

What's so hard about that?

Okay.

Until things reach that point, I'm free.

Yeah.

No one can keep me from doing what I want.

And I want what is proper to
rational beings living together.

Is he talking about suicide?

I think he's talking about suicide.

This reminds me of the Louis C.

bit, where he's you get a bill, and you're
like, I have to pay this bill, and I've

got this trash can on, covering my window.

You could just kill yourself.

You don't have to put up with that.

Yeah.

It's a choice.

That's true.

I think it's possible that Louis C.

Is actually ripping off
Marcus Aurelius with that bit.

Marcus yeah.

Because that is what he is
saying here for the most part.

Although, you can live here
as you expect to live there.

I think he's talking
about something different.

There versus the afterlife.

Afterlife yeah.

Okay.

And so that's that here and
there is carefree, right?

And live in accord, the way
you expect to live there is in

accordance with what's in your soul.

So you should expect to do that here too.

And if they won't let you,
then what have you lost?

Because you're the next place
you'll be able to do it.

Yeah.

I love it.

So if it's smoky, just kill yourself.

Yeah.

What's so hard about that?

If the smoke makes me cough, I can leave.

What's so hard about that?

I like that.

Okay, but given that you're not
suffering so much that you want to kill

yourself, Is there a middle ground?

Everything's good.

No, you're free.

Oh, you're free, okay.

Yes, because if things haven't
reached that point, I'm free.

Then who cares?

Yeah.

So no one can keep me
from doing what I want.

Sure, sure.

Classic worst case scenario type thinking.

Yes, totally.

And very yeah, either you are a slave
to everybody else's impositions on

you, or you are fully liberated and
no one can stop you from realizing

your potential as a human soul.

Yeah.

And there's no, there are no in betweens.

Yeah.

And I want what is proper
to rational beings.

Living together.

That's a weird, that's nice.

I think, I'm, how do you parse that
living together bit at the end?

He could be saying that the thing that
rational beings want is living together.

Or he could be saying that there's
a certain thing that rational

beings living together want.

And he's not specifying what that is.

Sure.

Do you see what I'm saying?

That would be the more,
more standard, Marcus.

Would you What is proper to rational
beings, comma, living together.

If that was a colon, it would be
very clear that don't think He's

saying that I don't think, Go ahead.

No, go ahead.

Given how much he hates
other people Yeah, I agree.

I think Yes, I don't think the thing
that he wants is living together.

No.

Is that what you're Yeah,
no, I think that Yes.

What he wants is, yeah, these rational
beings who live together is to live

a self, like a solitary actual self.

Yeah.

Actualized existence.

Yeah.

That has, yeah.

Okay.

This is a nice sunny note to end on.

Do you ever you are free.

Yeah.

And if the smoke makes you cough,
walk away by which he meets.

Kill yourself.

Just kill yourself.

What's the heart?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Lovely.

Thanks Marcus.

Lovely Marcus.

Yep.

Appreciate it.

Always good to hang out with your partner.

I love the idea of just, someone
comes home with just a petty

Yeah, I had this annoying meeting.

Just kill me.

What's so hard about that?

Yeah, it's easy.

You can endure anything.

Are you coughing over there, pal?

Yeah.

Also, that's their problem.

And by the way, any of your
problems are ordained by nature.

This is the guy, too, who really says
that the only time you need philosophy

is when things are going badly for you.

When things are tough, pick up this book.

It'll give you some good advice
about how to handle tough situations.

And also, this is the way.

I that bit, actually.

The problem becomes the way.

The School is the way.

Yeah.

That's nice.

Yeah.

If there's one, one little quote here
I want to put on a mug or something.

Yeah, I'll take that one.

Don't be a player king, but
also don't be a prostitute.

Don't be a prostitute.

Yeah, . That's nice.

Thanks, Marcus.

Until next time.

All right.

Bye.

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