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From Country to Courts hosted by Mike Hammond, radio veteran, Country Radio Hall of Fame inductee, and longtime Criminal Court Clerk.
This podcast explores the vital issues at the heart of our courts and criminal justice system in a way that’s clear and compelling.
Each episode will dive into insights on how the court system works, what citizens can expect if they ever find themselves in court, and the programs and services many never hear about, like Veterans Recovery Court, Mental Health Court, and driver's license reinstatement programs.
Whether you’re facing a legal issue, serving jury duty, or just curious about what happens behind courtroom doors, From Country to Courts offers real world context and practical information to help you better understand the justice system and your place in it.
Mike: Welcome back to another podcast for the court system here in Knox County. We call it From Country to the Courts. I’m your criminal court clerk, Mike Hammond. My guest today is the Honorable Judge Chuck Cerny, who is a criminal sessions court judge in Knox County. And in addition to your regular duties, you also oversee the mental health court, the drug recovery court, and also veterans recovery, and that’s what we want to talk about today, is veterans recovery. So, let’s talk about how this got started because I don’t think every court has a veterans recovery court, but we do here in Knox County.
Chuck: Well, candidly, there’s a story behind that. We had a recovery court at the time that we started veterans treatment court, and we were approached, candidly, by some veterans who were speaking up for one veteran in particular who had some criminal justice system involvement in Shelby County. And he wanted to have the benefit of a veterans treatment court, but he also wanted to move back to Knox County with family so that he could have a support system. And so, we were approached by veterans, and truthfully, they just said, “This guy can’t do this unless there’s a veterans treatment court here.” So, I was approached and our director at the time, Ron Hanover, was approached by some veterans on this guy’s behalf.
And we didn’t know what we were getting into, but we figured, well, if we piss [laugh] anybody off, we’ll just apologize. And we just figured we’ll take a shot at it and see what we can do. And we used the existing staff from the recovery court. We kind of studied up on the differences between a recovery court and a veterans treatment court. The primary difference is the involvement of veterans who are not criminal justice system-involved who act as mentors to the veterans, and so as a result, you get a chance to kind of perpetuate that veteran culture because our veterans of military service have a kind of special culture that they understand duty, they understand service, they understand selflessness, they understand sacrifice, and if they can kind of get reconnected to that, it ends up really helping them have high success rates. And so, veteran mentors was one thing that we were able to implement quickly. And so, we had a veterans treatment court with one participant for a while, and it grew from there, thankfully.
Mike: I know that when you read studies about homelessness here in Knox County, we read that a number of them are veterans that have addiction and mental health problems. And so, having a veterans recovery court is beneficial to the community and also to the veterans who may have these special types of issues. So, how do you get involved in veterans recovery court? What is the criteria?
Chuck: Well, first and foremost, we wouldn’t want to violate Tennessee’s criminal statutes for the purpose of availing ourselves of veterans treatment court, but veterans treatment court is for veterans who have become criminal justice system-involved. And we’re using that term if you get charged and/or convicted of criminal offenses—nonviolent criminal offenses—and if you are also a veteran, then you’re eligible and you would work with your lawyer who represents you to fill out an application, and we would consider that representative of the DA’s office, representative of the defense bar in the PD’s office, and our case managers, we confer on whether or not it’s a good candidate, the applicant. And we try to admit as many people as we can. Candidately, when I’m asked to try and help somebody, my default answer is yes, let’s try to help. But we’re trying to make sure we have a little bit of selectivity because we want to make sure we’re helping folks who are ready to make some changes. Now, I’m going to go ahead and just tell you a little story really briefly in a moment. I’ll try not to hijack your podcast.
Mike: No, no, please go ahead.
Chuck: Our veterans serve in the military for the purpose of helping us preserve our freedoms by helping us not be attacked from foreign invaders and all that sort of thing, and I’m so very grateful, but what they experience is actually profoundly traumatic. I had a conversation with one of our veterans about how he had seen the movie Saving Private Ryan and when they wanted to create the sound of a bullet hitting one of your compadres right next to you, how they found the correct sound by whatever means they did. But he was telling me, “I’ve heard that sound and I’ve looked over and seen my buddy next to me get shot and killed, and I can tell you they duplicated the sound perfectly.” And so, I’m telling that story just to emphasize, many of our veterans have been involved in active combat, meaning, you know, they’ve actually been in those very traumatic situations. And it’s really, really hard to come back to civilian life and, kind of, matriculate back to that civilian world. Thankfully, if you are criminal justice system-involved and you have post-traumatic stress disorder from some sort of contact like that, we do the best we can to help you with treatment options, recovery options, and get you referred to treatment providers. We have a Veterans Administration liaison who meets with us every week at our staffing to try to help our veterans treatment court folks. And I’m just really proud of what we’ve been able to do to help veterans who are going through addiction, going through PTSD, that kind of thing. It’s a very beneficial program.
Mike: I was in college during the Vietnam era, and I remember talking with one of my buddies who had gone to Vietnam and came back and he had been there for about a year. And he said that when he got out, they basically, you know, he saluted, got on a plane and came to Knoxville and got off the plane. And then he was expected to just kind of go right back into civilian life. And he was talking about the fact that there was—at that time, there wasn’t any kind of program or any training or any—nothing. It was just kind of like, “Okay, you’re out of Vietnam. Now, you’re back in Knoxville and have a great life.”
And he said the stuff that he was involved in, like you said, it’s traumatic, and to try to deal with that. And so, having these types of programs now are just vital for these military people who do come back from that type of environment. How long is the program? I know that in drug recovery, it’s anywhere from a year to 18 months. Is it longer, shorter, or what would be the timeframe?
Chuck: It’s very similar, time-wise. And it depends on the individual participant, of course, and how well you’re doing. Some of the requirements—it’s a five-phase program—and requirements to phase up involve having a certain amount of time where you test free of any substances that are inappropriate, not only illegal substances, but legal substances, of course, and you got to make your random drug screens three times a week and test clean, or else you’re not going to be phasing up. So, folks who have bumps in the road, they delay their progress, of course. And so, it becomes a little longer.
We have had folks who have taken a little longer than 18 months, let’s put it that way. And then we’ve had folks who just blast through the program, do fantastic, and are ready to graduate in say a year. But it’s a significant sacrifice. You have to be willing to make changes in your behavior so that we avoid further criminal justice system involvement, of course. That’s the main, most important goal.
Mike: The ability to have this type of program, to have people go through it and get clean, turn their lives around, and move on to be productive citizens is huge because you look at the ramifications of that, it’s not just for the person and their family, but it’s also for Knox County, you know, our citizens being able to get a job and be productive citizens and move on with their lives and not come back into the criminal justice system.
Chuck: Absolutely. And even in the midst of participation in the program, there is cost savings because it’s extremely expensive to simply warehouse people that you want to separate from society. Putting folks over at the detention facility is expensive, and that’s a significant cost to the taxpayers. But when somebody is maintaining their sobriety, avoiding using, avoiding further criminal justice system involvement in the form of getting charged again, avoiding victimizing other people, whether it’s stealing from them or hurting them physically, once you get a person doing those kinds of things and acting like a productive citizen, it changes the whole dynamic, and it’s a profound savings, not only in terms of effect on people’s lives, but right out of your pocketbook in terms of how much you pay for taxes. So, it’s a win-win for the community and for the individual who’s involved.
Mike: Judge, thank you for all you do. I know that you have a regular job just being a sessions court judge, but also these are additional things that you have agreed to take on. And so, I know you’re extremely busy, but thank you for what you do.
Chuck: You’re very kind to say that. One last thing I just want to mention. Judge Hector Sanchez has taken on veterans treatment court, and I am proud of the wonderful job he’s doing. We did get it started and I was involved with the startup, but I’m so proud of what a great job Judge Sanchez does. And of course, you never say former Marine; he’s a Marine and—
Mike: [crosstalk 00:09:30].
Chuck: Always will be. So, I just want to make sure everybody knows Judge Sanchez is doing a fantastic job with the veterans treatment court.
Mike: Great. Thank you again for joining us. This has been From Country to the Courts. Our guest has been the Honorable Judge Cerny, Criminal Sessions Court Judge. I’m Mike Hammond. Thanks for joining us.
Mike: This has been From Country to the Courts. I appreciate your listening. You can follow me on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, don’t forget to give me a five-star review on the app of your choice. Thanks, and I’ll see you on the next episode.