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🎙️ Jonathan Pageau: Wallowing Is Pride — How Guilt, Shame & Memory Lead to Transformation
In this rare and powerful short-form conversation, Orthodox icon carver and symbolic thinker Jonathan Pageau unpacks the hidden pride inside our guilt, the spiritual dangers of wallowing, and how biblical memory is the path to true humility and healing.
Therapist Mark Odland (EMDR specialist and host of the Lion Counseling Podcast) shares symbolic stories—from drowning lifeguards to the thief on the cross—to reveal how men get stuck in shame and what it actually means to be remembered by God.
What you’ll learn in this short episode:
• Why wallowing in shame is actually pride in disguise
• How Satan operates as “the accuser” in our inner dialogue
• The symbolic meaning of Jonah in the belly of the whale
• Why confession is humiliating—but necessary
• The spiritual power of memory vs. dismemberment
• What EMDR therapy has in common with ancient Christian practice
• How healing changes the symbolic image at the root of trauma
• Why wallowing in shame is actually pride in disguise
• How Satan operates as “the accuser” in our inner dialogue
• The symbolic meaning of Jonah in the belly of the whale
• Why confession is humiliating—but necessary
• The spiritual power of memory vs. dismemberment
• What EMDR therapy has in common with ancient Christian practice
• How healing changes the symbolic image at the root of trauma
If you’re a fan of Pageau’s Symbolic World, interested in the intersection of psychology and faith, or just want to stop spiraling in shame—this is a must-watch.
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https://escapethecagenow.com/subscribe/
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Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
https://escapethecagenow.com/call/
Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break free, heal deep, and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by certified EMDR therapist Mark Odland, each episode blends faith, psychology, symbolism, and grit to help men face the hard truths, heal past wounds, and live a legacy. New episodes drop every Tuesday.
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break free, heal deep, and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by certified EMDR therapist Mark Odland, each episode blends faith, psychology, symbolism, and grit to help men face the hard truths, heal past wounds, and live a legacy. New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Creators and Guests
What is Lion Counseling Podcast?
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.
Got my attention. Now it can point me in in a proper direction. And instead, it's almost like this place of wallowing, of turning inward. Oh, yeah. And it just becomes so destructive because they aren't in a space to receive any kind of criticism because that wound and wound is so deep.
Mark Odland:I mean, of course, I'm conceptualizing it through that kind of therapy lens. But to be able to that paradox, right? That we're Yeah. We're sinners and we're fallen, and and and we are kind of in an active state of rebellion most of the time towards our creator. And yet, we're also created in his image, and and we're so valuable.
Mark Odland:He went to the cross for us.
Jonathan Pageau:And Yeah. Well, one of the things one of the things, Mark, is to understand that wallowing is pride. That's what wallowing is.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Pageau:It's like when you wallow when you self deprecate and you wallow and you just kind of you just kind of, feel that that, like, paralyzing, shame, it's because you think you're more than you really are. It's because you think you should be more than what you are, you know. And so true the true shame, like, or the true humility is to think that, no, you don't. It's not true. It's like, oh, I should have been better than that.
Jonathan Pageau:Like, I'm better than that. Like, no, you're not better than that.
Mark Odland:Right.
Jonathan Pageau:You're not. Right. And so now get over it. Like, get over the fact you're not better than that and now here's an opportunity for you to kind of to move in the right direction. And so, I know this is it's a little rough.
Jonathan Pageau:It's tough to say that but but I think that, you know, because one of the things that when we feel sorry for ourselves or when we feel this kind of wallowing, self deprecating, you know, self accusing thing, you know, there's a reason why the devil is called the accuser. There's a reason why Satan is is called that because there's an aspect of pride in that, like, how can I say this? In, like, this this this acceptance of excessive guilt in the sense excessive guilt in the sense that, yeah, you're guilty. But there's a sense in which we think that this guilt is so crushing because I think I'm better than that. I actually, there's a disjoint between what I think I am and what I've just done.
Jonathan Pageau:No, it's like, no, you're exactly what you've just done. Right? Like, let's let's now see that properly in the right way and that and and not just you, but everybody. Like, everybody is is broken. Everybody's beaten up.
Jonathan Pageau:Everybody's sins. Like, your sins aren't special. You know, this is what I tell, like, I tell my daughter this, like, she doesn't wanna go to confession, you know, to the She's like, you know, I I it's it's shameful. It's humiliating. I'm like, you know, your sins aren't special, dude.
Jonathan Pageau:Like, your sins are not special. It's like we Anyways, so that's what I that's what I mean. I think I think that there is when you sin, there sin is is actually always an opportunity. It's an opportunity to see yourself and to change. You know?
Jonathan Pageau:Mhmm. It's better when you feel that that that especially that first strike of guilt. Like, just feel it. When you do something, when you lie, or when you you, I don't know, you insult when you mock someone or when you belittle someone or whatever it is that you're doing that's that's that's that's bad. It's like when that first strike, man, you just grab onto that.
Jonathan Pageau:Not like as a as a way to self flagellate, but as like a literally like a thing to make you float back up. Like, it's like grab on to it man and just hold on because that'll take you out of your if you if you can grab on to it properly, it'll take you out,
Mark Odland:I love that I had a picture of like holding on to a big balloon and you're just like floating on and you know the other kind of image that came to mind a few minutes ago Jonathan we talked about flailing kind of flailing around in our sins, knowing that we're in that place. Back in college, my my grandfather passed away and special guy in my life and he we're lucky because he had been in the midst of writing his autobiography And it was unfinished, but it was still just this treasure trove of information about his life. And so I was able to kind of type it up and kind of get it into a form for the family. And one of the stories in there was he was a teenager living in a little little town in Minnesota and he was a lifeguard for the summer. And he talked about when people would drown, that's exactly what they would do.
Mark Odland:They would flail. And so one of the, you know, mythological I think it was real, but one of the stories was he had to swim out and there's this big tough dude who was flailing as he was drowning and my grandpa had to punch him. He had to cut a I don't know if he knocked him out, but he had to cut a knock him out in a way so he could grab onto him and then rescue him and bring him back to shore. Yeah. And it's just so that just kind of stuck with me as you were talking about that.
Mark Odland:How often are we in some way drowning or flailing and we are either too panicky or too prideful or too whatever to see it for what it is. And I don't know if surrender is the right word, to just okay. And then see it as an opportunity.
Jonathan Pageau:Yeah, but at least stop like
Mark Odland:at least stop
Jonathan Pageau:at least just stop. There's an image in scripture that's beautiful is the image of Jonah in the in the belly of the whale. Yep. You know, it says you know, because Jonah obviously rebelled against God, didn't do what God wanted, and because of that, he paid the price. He had to suffer death.
Jonathan Pageau:You know? He he he gets taken down into the into shale, into the into death. But then it says that he remembers God. Mhmm. And that's all.
Jonathan Pageau:Like, that's really it. It's like if you if you remember God and you remember your position, you know, that's why we say, Lord, have mercy, like Kiria Elisone, which is this idea when we say, Lord, have mercy, is to say it's like, I remember God and I realize that it's like I just have to be in the right position. It's like mercy comes from you down to me. I don't I am not like in myself. I don't have everything I need to do what I'm gonna do, you know, it's like and so I think that that that that's a good thing to it's a good way to kind of still the panic and to still, like, the the chaos.
Mark Odland:I love that. I I think that's this might kinda transition us into the next topic, but I think there yeah. There's something so powerful of memory. Like like you're saying, remembering God and and reminded me of a Good Friday sermon once I heard, and and the pastor contrasted remembering versus dismembering.
Jonathan Pageau:Yeah.
Mark Odland:Dismembering being like this disintegration of identity, of of self, of of life. And the thief on the cross, remember me, Jesus, when you come into your kingdom. There's something about remembering God and the idea that God could possibly remember us is just is such a comforting, powerful thing and and a reason for hope. Yeah.
Jonathan Pageau:Yeah. And you see that's that you see that in scripture too, by the way, because in the story of Noah, in the story of Jonah, it's Jonah that remembers God. It said Jonah remembered God.
Mark Odland:But in
Jonathan Pageau:the story of Noah, it says God remembered Noah Mhmm. During the flood, like, on the water. It's like, you know, the world is God is when God remembers you, when you remember God, it's the it's the possibility of a new beginning.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, yeah. So this theme of memory kinda transitions us into, you know, my work as an EMDR therapist.
Mark Odland:And I know you have some familiar we've talked a little bit about that in a previous conversation. But coming into our conversation today, I wanted to throw out just throw out a little bit and just kind of see what you thought of it, just kind of what sparks you. But the research kind of proven protocol for how we introduce a client to the traumatic memory that we're going to heal, to desensitize and to open up the brain to adaptive healing information. The script is interesting because the first thing that we ask is what picture or image represents the worst part
Jonathan Pageau:of it. Mhmm.
Mark Odland:And then it goes on to what's essentially what's the lie, the negative cognition, And what are the emotions and the body sensations that go with it? And we take baseline measurements to kind of measure how intense those things are. But what I find interesting is that oftentimes one of the hallmarks of a traumatic memory that's actually healed is that the image or the symbol essentially has has visually faded, or it feels further away, or it's actually been replaced by another image or metaphor that has almost taken its place. And what comes with it is oftentimes a deeper felt sense of the truth about themselves and the situation they went through, and a decrease in the anxiety that they've that they're experiencing in real time, the way that their body is is is responding.