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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Frances Crusoe (00:00.549)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (00:04.078)
Are we recording? Okay, hi. I totally missed the countdown because I was trying to center myself on the screen. So today we have a very good friend of mine, very dear friend. How long have we known each other, Frances?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:05.203)
We're recording, we're doing it.
Frances Crusoe (00:20.069)
you
I want to say since my kid was in like sixth grade and he is now 26. So since he was like 12 and now he's 26, so how about. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:30.335)
It's a long time.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:34.83)
Yeah, so at least 12 years. At least 12 or 14 years. I can't do math right now. So we have my good friend Frances who's joining us and we're going to be talking today about relationships and the myriad of colors that those relationships come in. Frances, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into it?
Frances Crusoe (00:57.893)
I am never good at this. am Frances Crusoe. I live in the suburbs of Atlanta, Georgia. I've known Taina, like you said, for well over 14, maybe 15 years. And funny enough, we met at church of all places that neither one of us deal with to this day. I am polyamorous, which means that I have multiple relationships. Very fun things. What else about me? I'm a mom of two, but my kids are...
adults now, so I feel like I am very much entering my empty nester phase of life at 43, which is very fun. Currently in fun employment, so very much enjoying this time of not having to deal with the stresses of work, but I am starting graduate school in August at Emory University and looking forward to that. Getting a master's in legal studies, basically learning
Becky Mollenkamp (01:48.649)
What will you be studying?
Frances Crusoe (01:53.829)
A lot of the ins and outs of the law, same classes that JD students do without the further course requirement required to become an attorney and sit for the bar and things like that. So learning all of that without having to become an attorney.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:07.425)
Yeah, but you've been in like in the legal realm for a while.
Frances Crusoe (02:11.567)
Yes, I have been in the arbitration field for almost 20 years now. So I'm definitely trying to pivot and transition out of that now, which is this is all perfect timing for me being unemployed and starting graphics, but I applied for that even before I left my job. this is all perfect timing. So. And I'm a Disney adult, not the Disney adult that ruins it for everyone, but Mickey Mouse gets a lot of my money every single year.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:28.363)
And you're a Disney adult.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:39.551)
Do you have Disney kids as well as adults or are they not as interested?
Frances Crusoe (02:42.949)
They're not as interested. My youngest, he's almost 19 and he still goes to the parks with me, but he is definitely not as into it as I am. Like I'm very much the type A planner. I have all the ears, the clown five backpacks. I'm up to date on every new thing at the Disney parks. So it's just not weird and creepy and it's not my whole personality, but.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:05.812)
Disney World or Disneyland or...
Frances Crusoe (03:08.035)
I've never been to Disneyland, so that's on my bucket list at some point in the next couple of years, but very much to Disney World.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:14.899)
Well, Disney World's much better. Sorry to anyone who thinks it's not.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:16.909)
You
Frances Crusoe (03:18.437)
been to Disneyland, I know the parks are, it's smaller because there's only two parks there, but Disney World, if you can accomplish Disney World, you can accomplish anything.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:27.887)
Forget that if you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere.
Frances Crusoe (03:29.645)
Right!
Becky Mollenkamp (03:32.829)
You can survive Disney World, you can survive anywhere. Probably some truth to that, especially now since, you know, Florida.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:36.108)
Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (03:38.878)
exactly. I stay in the Disney bubble. I don't go to Florida. I go to Disney World.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:39.02)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:43.218)
Disney, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:44.415)
Let's call that separate. It's like the Vatican inside of Italy. Like, just a new robot school in its own country.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:47.19)
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. So we're going to talk today about polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. And like you said, we met in church, which the church that we used to go to would say it's quite progressive, but it's still quite conservative based on how we live our lives today. So how did you get there, I guess is the first question.
Frances Crusoe (04:09.53)
Very quick.
Frances Crusoe (04:19.087)
How did I get to polyamory? So I started this journey back 2020. So it's been about five years now during the pandemic. And I hadn't dated in quite a while because church. And I decided to get on the dating apps, which I hadn't done before. So I decided to get on the dating apps. And I cannot remember which app it was because it's been so many years ago, but I connected with this guy on a dating app. He saw his profile. He was single, lived in
Douglasville, think. And we were talking and he happened to mention something about his wife. And I'm like, wait, wife, why are you on a dating app if you have a wife? And so he explained to me that he and his wife were in an open marriage and that they kind of give each other permission to have other partners outside of the marriage. And I was like, this is new. Now, I'd heard of Polyamory before, but I'd never really met anybody out in the wild that was polyamorous. I'd always.
Seeing like TV shows and movies where men had their mistress and the wife was kind of quiet about it. She knew about it, but didn't really trip about it or anything like that. So I'm like, there's not real people that do that. And so of course I meet this guy and he's explaining all these things to me and the process that they went to to kind of discuss wanting to open up their marriage and parameters and all those things like that. And I was very intrigued. I'm like, this is very interesting. So he actually recommended a book to me.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:18.715)
Mm-hmm.
Frances Crusoe (05:40.133)
of all things, and I'm very much an avid book reader. he recommended this book called Opening Up by Tristan Tremino. I hope I'm saying her name right. Just kind of explaining some of the background of non-monogamous relationships, the history. And what I liked about that book is the fact that it had a lot of questions at the end of each chapter that helped you figure out, is this even the right path for me to have or retake? And also question that you can ask yourself and your partner when it comes to having those conversations about
Taina Brown she/hers (06:03.591)
Hmm.
Frances Crusoe (06:09.647)
possibility of opening up your relationship. And so he and I just were talking just in a friendly thing, not even like we wanted to date or anything like that. We just kind of maintained a friendship. And I was very intrigued by the idea of being in multiple relationships. I'm reading the book, I'm talking with him. And in a way, the language in the book made sense, because I've always dated forever, got two kids dated forever or whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:16.427)
.
Frances Crusoe (06:37.165)
And I know that even in my relationships in the past, I've always had crushes on other people, even while I've been in a relationship so long.
Frances Crusoe (06:49.187)
And so the language in the book, hold on. my gosh, I cannot talk.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:56.863)
All right, we'll edit it. Just take your time. Don't worry.
Frances Crusoe (06:58.019)
Okay. So the language in the book kind of of made sense and connected with a lot of the things that I thought about previous relationships where
Taina Brown she/hers (06:58.469)
Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (07:10.743)
Yes, it's taboo and it's very wrong to cheat, but people sometimes make it seem like once you get in a relationship, your eyes are completely blinded to anyone else. can't talk to anyone else, shouldn't feel anything for anyone else. But that's not real. Like people who have been married for years, for years can say, hey, I think this person is cute or whatever the case may be. People have work wives and work husbands and things like that. So it's not outside of the realm of possibility for people to develop feelings and connections for other people outside of their primary partner.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:13.675)
.
Frances Crusoe (07:39.287)
And so it made sense to me when I look back a lot of relationships and how I've been in relationships, but I also liked other people. And so now there's this group of people that I'm learning about that have permission to explore those different connections and those different feelings with people. just with talking with him, I was like, you know, this is probably something that I'll be interested in to explore. if it works, it works. not, hey, I did it for the plot. So no big deal.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:43.403)
.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:05.375)
You
Frances Crusoe (08:06.839)
And so just he and I, we're actually still pretty cool to this day. And after I met him, I'm still on the apps just swiping or whatever. And then maybe about two or three weeks after I connected with this first guy, I met another guy, I think on Tinder, if I'm not mistaken. And he was also married in a polyamorous relationship with his wife as well. And they date separately. They don't have like shared partners. both have their own separate partners outside of their relationships.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:13.354)
.
Frances Crusoe (08:36.561)
And he and I connected and great chemistry, great conversations, and we've been together ever since. So that was kind of my entry point into polyamory. And since that relationship, I've actually entered into another relationship. And he and I have been together for almost two years now in September, October. I don't remember dates because I'm terrible with that. I've dated other people throughout this process. And it's been a very eye opening and interesting adventure.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:58.047)
concerns.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:04.874)
Hmm.
Frances Crusoe (09:05.829)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:05.983)
I have so many questions. The first place I want to start is going back to, so obviously you were intrigued when this guy brought this idea forward for you and it started to get something going in your own head. But coming out of a religious background and the conditioning that we all get and everything, while you were intrigued, there also voices in your head trying to convince you why this was wrong or bad or like what else came up for you besides just the intrigue?
Frances Crusoe (09:28.901)
Oh, absolutely. Well, absolutely. It brought up just a lot of things. Of course, I have voices still in the back of my head because religious conditioning, no joke. So in my mind, I was still trying to wrestle with the idea of, you're married. You're not supposed to do this. And even me as a single person, why am I even having this conversation with this guy who's married? He's clearly off limits or whatever. So for a while, I did struggle with the idea of the right and wrong of relationships.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:45.225)
.
Frances Crusoe (09:58.737)
But again, that book that he recommended for me, that helped dispel a lot of those things because it made me do lot of inner work and ask myself a lot of questions. A lot of those questions in the beginning of the book and in many of the chapters, it's solely focused on you and why you think that this is a good avenue to pursue. So they focus on different relationship topics and questions which are asked, but a lot of it is on why do you think that this is good idea?
Have you considered this? Have you thought about this? I think it even mentioned something about like, how do you see yourself in an open relationship based on past beliefs and how you grew up, religious beliefs, social beliefs, things like that. I felt like I did a lot of the mental work because of that book. And it helped me kind of settle my anxiety about.
what I know is right and wrong based on what I learned in church, know, for all those years and even growing up as a kid in church. And I kind of made peace with the fact that I kind of get to decide what is right and what's wrong for me. And as long as people who are involved in these relationships are consenting adults, what we deem right and wrong is what we deem right and wrong. As long as you're not hurting anyone, as long as everyone is on the same page, everyone is consenting.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:18.111)
Thank
Frances Crusoe (11:22.295)
we get to determine what is right and what's wrong.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:25.055)
And speaking of the consenting, the next thing that comes to my mind is if I were on the dating ass and some guy said he was married, but he has total permission to be here, my head would immediately go to, uh-huh, sure. Like I would have such lack of faith in him. multiple times this has happened, right? And I would be wondering like, is that true? So was there, is there conversation with the other partner? Like, what does that look like for you to know that there is actually consenting adults involved?
Frances Crusoe (11:35.653)
It's like that.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:35.837)
Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (11:49.461)
It actually, because people lie all the time. And as you, I kind of learned how to like vet people and ask the right questions. And you kind of turn to pick up on, do you really have permission or do you think that you have permission? Like is your wife really on board with this or are you just, you know, blowing smoke or whatever? So even though he and I never dated, I never, you know, talked with his wife or anything, but with the guy that I met afterwards and he and I have been together.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:50.408)
.
Frances Crusoe (12:18.053)
Before we even met for the first time, I was like, hey, I just want to make sure that this is on the up and up because it sounds too good to be true. Do you mind if I have a conversation with your wife? And he was like, sure, absolutely. Let me know when you want to talk to her. literally the next day, he was like, here's her number. You can call her or she can call you. You guys can talk. And it was literally just a quick phone call. She called me and she was like, hey, I know that you connected with my husband and he's so excited. Whatever questions you have, feel free to ask. it was, was like, oh, so people really, really do do this. Like you are really cool.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:23.52)
.
Frances Crusoe (12:47.757)
She's super cool. Like she and I are cool to this day. So it was very refreshing to actually be able to connect with her and understand that, no, this is something that we do and we are absolutely okay with it. Our relationship is strong, but we also give each other the permission to see other people. So if you have any questions, concerns, like she totally put my fears to rest with just that one conversation. I've talked to other people's partners as well. And for the people who are really non-monogamous,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:10.341)
Hmm.
Frances Crusoe (13:16.933)
the ethical way. Like they would have zero problem with allowing you to speak with their significant partner. Red flag is when they hesitate. So that will always be an indication of whether or not things are on up and up if they have hesitations about you talking with their partner or communicating with them in any way.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:33.888)
So if it's not enthusiastic, then...
Frances Crusoe (13:36.261)
If it's not enthusiastic, there's any kind of hesitation, something's probably not on the up.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:40.934)
Yeah, yeah. So, do you feel like, so, cause this has been like a journey for you obviously, and like growing up in church, like you said, there's a lot of religious conditioning. And so when you started to explore this, like, I don't remember when I first learned that you were polyamorous. It was probably through Diana, our mutual friend, Diana. But do you feel like you had to like,
Frances Crusoe (14:02.117)
Probably.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:08.423)
come out for lack of a better term to people? Like what was that process like for you?
Frances Crusoe (14:12.933)
I did feel like I had to come out in a way. And I think I don't think I did any grand reveal. I think it just happened in conversation. Like with you guys or whatever, I think it just kind of came up in conversation. But even now when I meet people and they talk about Stamford and others, even now I kind of be like, do I tell them my relationship dynamics? Because again, people are judgmental. They don't understand. They have these preconceived notions.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:23.975)
Mm.
Frances Crusoe (14:43.053)
In a way, it does feel like this continuous coming out to people. Like, I've mentioned it to my siblings, like we're on a group chat or whatever. And I think I just mentioned it in passing in some way, or maybe I posted something about it on social media and they all see it. And nobody's ever said anything about it. Nobody's ever, you know, asked a thousand questions. So it's not like, it's not my whole personality. It's just a part of my life. So it's not something I feel like I have to advertise to everyone. People that know me know siblings, family they know.
But as I meet new people who are not in that space, it does feel like I have to like come out over and over again to people and explain to them like, yeah, I have two partners and you may have met one and this is the other one. I took my partner that I've been with the longest to a wedding that I went to like my brother's wedding. So they got to meet him. And then if I have another event, like I might take the other one. And then there's a whole nother.
reintroduction that has to happen like, we thought we met you, but like, no, you met one, this is this is the other one. So it's, it's, it's almost like a continuous coming out process as you meet people and let them into that part of your life. So
Becky Mollenkamp (15:56.041)
What about your children? That's the place I think I would have like, I don't know. mean, obviously you're not with their father or right. So that probably helps in a way because that might be as an adult, like that would be, I think, hard to wrap my brain around. But I still think even for me, like just thinking as an adult with my, I mean, my mom's older, so it'd be, but still, I think it would be hard as a kid to see your parent do something like this, like a major shift like this. So how are they?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:03.046)
you
Frances Crusoe (16:22.533)
Okay, so my oldest kid, is 26. So he was what 21? Yes, he was 21 when I first started this. He's out of the house. He already has his own life or whatever. The younger kids, the younger generation, they get it. They are much more in tune to this particular lifestyle and different lifestyle and relationship dynamics than we ever were in our younger days. So when I explained it to him, to my oldest kid, he was like, oh, that's...
Taina Brown she/hers (16:32.614)
.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:37.535)
That's so true.
Frances Crusoe (16:50.309)
that's different because he hadn't seen me date anyone in a very long time because church. So he was not very, he was not used to seeing me in relationships, let alone multiple relationships. But when I explained it to him, was like, oh, that's cool. Like I know people who are polyamorous, so it wasn't a big deal for him. And even with my kid who's 18 now, for him it was like, you have a boyfriend? I was like, oh, I have two. was like, you've got two people that like you? Like again, it wasn't, it wasn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:02.149)
It was just like, it's my mom, it's gross.
Frances Crusoe (17:19.013)
It's my mom and I think they responded that way because I've always tried to be that parent that doesn't make stuff weird about that. We talk about relationships, we talk about sex, we talk about all the things and I've never wanted them to feel like anything related to sex or relationships are weird. Like if they have a crush on a boy, like I have two sons, like if they have a crush on a boy, okay cool, tell me about it. Like I never want them to feel like anything that's outside of the norm is weird so.
Mom is bisexual. She likes girls and boys and she's got two boyfriends. Sounds like a Tuesday to us. So I think for them, because we've always had the relationship where my mom, she's going to do what feels good to her. And as long as she's happy, it's cool. It might not be what other people are doing, but it's not weird. So if that makes any sense. Now people have younger kids. And I've met people on social media who have younger kids. And for them, they've kind of framed it as
Becky Mollenkamp (18:06.909)
Yeah, no doesn't.
Frances Crusoe (18:15.653)
Mom and dad are married, we love each other, but mommy also has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend, and now you have like four people that love and take care of you. So I think you can have those conversations with kids in a very age appropriate way so that they know that, you know, mom and daddy are fine, we're good, we love each other, but we also, you know, have other people who also love us and they love you as well. So there's a lot of hangups when it comes to talking to kids about non-monogamous relationships, but I think it all depends on
how you talk to them and as long as you don't make it seem like you're doing something bad, like you feel like you have to keep your partners a secret, then they're gonna think, this is not something that you should be doing if you can't talk to your kids about it. So, my kids understand mommy does weird stuff, so they're like, this is fine, this is cool. And it also gives them an understanding that you have options, like if you wanna be monogamous, totally fine, mom's on board with that.
Or if you're at a position where you want to explore something different, that's also something that you have the option to do as well. There's different ways to live your life, how you see fit.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:21.705)
I appreciate the reminder as a parent to a young one. I do, feel like I do a really good job of talking to my son about all sorts of different families and, you know, the ways that we love and all of those things. And he knows that I'm bi and I'm part of you know, LGBTQ family. And like, he takes a lot of pride in that. However, I think I'm such a monogamist that I forget about this part of like,
Frances Crusoe (19:23.289)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:46.355)
the ways that families can look different, relationships can look different, that I don't think I have done a good job of just making it not weird, of bringing it into part of these conversations. So I appreciate the reminder that when I'm talking about the different ways that families can look, the different ways that people can love, to introduce this concept while he's still young so that he knows that that is an option because I would love for him to, because I think the reason.
I mean, I don't think the only reason I'm such a monogamous is because of my conditioning, but I think a good portion of it probably is, right? And so I want him to have more freedom than I would have ever felt and still probably feel to have around religion.
Frances Crusoe (20:19.503)
can guarantee you that the kids are having these conversations, whether we know it or not, they're already having these conversations. Like my kids already graduated from high school, but I can just remember him telling me like, yeah, such and such as a girlfriend and a boyfriend. like, and they may not have the right labels for it, but they are very open to exploring different dynamics on their own as teenagers and even older. So for them to see it, see us older, older people.
modeling something like that. They're like, well, I'm used to this or whatever. They're already very accepting of gay kids, white kids, trans kids or whatever. So this is just another added dynamic that they're also very aware of and very accepting of. So yeah, the kids, the kids are, they already know, they know more than. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:03.327)
These are all right, as they say, there are a bunch.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:03.747)
Yeah.
That's such a good point, because I just remember when I was a kid, there were things that I was talking about with my friends and my cousins and things that we were exposed to that my mom and aunts and uncles and grandparents, right, that they would never have chosen to expose us to at that age, but we were already exposed to it. So it's like we knew a lot more than they really gave us credit for. And the unfortunate part of that is that
because they were so strict, we didn't have someone to model some of those things in a healthy way, right? We didn't have a space to talk about those things that was safe and encouraging and healthy. And so in our little kid brains, just made assumptions about the things that we were exposed to and that we were experiencing at the time. So that's a really good point. Speaking of aunties and uncles, like, do you...
have you gotten any like resistance? Cause you know, we know what it's like, right? When you're older and you're single, like family members, especially older family members always want to know, like, are you seeing anyone? And, or when are you getting married? What are you going to settle down? When are you going to have kids? Like it's always something, right? And you know, a lot of that is the intentions are not necessarily in the wrong place, but a lot of it is very,
Becky Mollenkamp (22:18.067)
And when you get mad...
Taina Brown she/hers (22:33.74)
monogamous heteronormative conditioning. like, have you, and you can share as much or as little as you like. I don't want to put you on the spot, but has there been any kind of like resistance with like the aunties and the uncles?
Frances Crusoe (22:50.277)
So I will say that as open as I am to my siblings and cousins and friends, not as open to my mom and my aunts, because it's very hard to explain this type of lifestyle to them who are still very conservative, very religious. So in a way, they know that I have one partner, but
Yeah, they don't know that I have multiple partners. That's very hard to explain because what I don't want is, my God, you're fooling around with a married man or two, because actually both my partners are married. You're fooling around with two married men and I can just hear the Bible verses coming out. I could just hear all the backlash. Hello. All the things because this is literally something that they have never ever heard of and they would not be able to.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:34.991)
The Jezebel.
Frances Crusoe (23:48.855)
understand or comprehend because they're still a very much old school southern Christian people where you know the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman one man and one woman at that so I am somewhat selective about other people telling other people about my relationship choices simply because some people I know would not be open-minded enough to either understand it or accept it or be willing to have a conversation about so
my aunties and my mom, they know that I have a partner, but they don't know that he's married. They don't know I also have another married partner. And I don't know if it'll ever come up in conversation that I have multiple partners, simply because I don't wanna have to deal with the judgment that would come from that. And the people who know, they know, they love and they care about me, but...
You don't want to have to open up a can of worms if you don't have to. So yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51.566)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:51.707)
Yeah, we all subject yourself to that. speaking of the like Jezebel and the your just have this is just you fooling around with married men. What are the kinds of misconceptions that you hear people in your own ear saying about polyamory and ethical marmite?
Taina Brown she/hers (25:02.739)
No.
Frances Crusoe (25:04.677)
Oh, it's just people having, they think it's just people just having a bunch of sex and orgies and it's just glorified cheating and all these things. And I want to tell you that sex is like the lowest thing on the priority list when it comes to relationships, having multiple relationships. I think we spend more time just kind of talking and having open communication and all the other things like a polyamorous relationship or multiple relationships.
is literally just like any other relationship. We're both, we're all very committed to each other. We're very supportive, very encouraging. We talk about all the hard things. So they're actual relationships, just like a regular monogamous relationship. My partners are my people. They are my secure place. And these are actual relationships that are, in my mind, very long lasting. I don't see it ending anytime soon.
But a lot of people think it's just a phase and, you know, at some point, you know, he's going to go back to his wife. I'm like, he hasn't left his wife. Like if she's there, I talk to her or I hear in the background and she'll say, hey, how you doing or whatever. So it's not like this is something that's just a phase or this is just something that's temporary. These are actual solid, committed, loving relationships. And it's not just about sex. It's not about, you know, collecting as many partners like Pokemon cards or anything like that. But a lot of people think it is and how people think it's just, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:09.877)
Okay.
Frances Crusoe (26:31.883)
sex and just, you know, disrespecting relationships and marriage or whatever. So I've heard everything under the sun. And again, for people who are generally curious, curious about my relationship choices, we'll have those conversations. I'll just, I'll, you know, dispel every myth. But for those who are very dead set on misunderstanding what I'm saying or, or my choices, then those are the people I'm like, you're going to, you already have in your mind what you think this is. And there's nothing that I can say that's going to change your mind. So.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:02.591)
have a genuine question or curiosity around the fact that both of your partners are married, which means that you, would assume, not aiming, moving towards marriage with either of them since they're already married. Does that, and I know that your experience with ethical non-monogamy may be limited or, you know, in the years you've done this, it sounds like it's primarily been with these two men. I could be wrong. It sounds like you had a few other dates, know, boyfriends or whatever along the way or girlfriends.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:04.525)
you
Frances Crusoe (27:12.794)
All
Becky Mollenkamp (27:31.391)
But does it change anything knowing that like they have a, I think I've heard this term anyway, inside of these men of relationships, a primary partner, right? And then that makes you sort of by default or by definition, the secondary partner, even though maybe that's not how you all view it. does that do anything for you or is that just like, doesn't, those labels don't really matter.
Frances Crusoe (27:38.149)
Bye.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:45.44)
.
Frances Crusoe (27:52.143)
those labels don't really matter to me. Truth be told, I've never been one to shoot for marriage. I'm very much of the mindset, if I get married, great. If I don't, also great. So I've never had this desire to get married and the white picket fence or anything like that. And I remember having conversation with my friend Diana about when I was growing up and...
I'm thinking about what my life would look like. It never included a husband or wife or anything like that. So it really just included me living my life and friends and things like that. So I was never, you know, holding on, holding tight to the idea of getting married. So the fact that they're both already married, doesn't bother me. And we also, none of us really subscribe to the hierarchy of this is my primary partner. This is my secondary partner. Some people do. And if that works for them, great. But
Taina Brown she/hers (28:47.336)
.
Frances Crusoe (28:47.873)
me and my partners, we don't. Yes, they have some sort of privilege built in because they're married. So they have people that they live with, they share finances with, they have kids with, whatever. So those are kind of built in priorities. But they never make me feel like I am secondary. we support each other financially. We see each other all the time. So they never make me feel like I am their second priority. I am just as important.
If I need anything, they will come to my aid, they will come to my rescue. So it all depends on how the people in that relationship or those relationships structure it and how they prioritize what's important or however they make their partners feel. And again, some people subscribe to the idea of this is my main person. They have veto power, which means that they can say yay or nay to relationships. whoever the secondary person is, they get whatever's left over.
we don't subscribe to that. I would never want to be in a position where I'm feeling like I am less than to anyone else because I'm a full person. I have a wide range of feelings and emotions and needs and desires. And my partner needs to be able to understand and recognize that as well. I'm not the side chick. I'm not the girl that you get to give your leftovers to. I want your full self. And I also want to know that if I need you, you're going to come through for me, if that makes any sense.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:11.188)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:12.339)
does.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:13.151)
Yeah, one thing I think when I started learning about polyamory and ethical non-monogamy, one thing that just really stood out to me was or that
It was, first of all, because of the religious conditioning, it was hard for me to wrap my head around it. But then there's like the independent side of me that I'm like, it totally makes sense. I don't have to be 100%, not that I'm not 100 % there when I would be with the person, but I don't have to be married. It gives you this sense of freedom that it feels like to me. But one thing that along my...
Frances Crusoe (30:31.973)
Everything.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:56.543)
process of just like wrapping my head around what that means and what it looks like or what it means like on a day-to-day basis was how consensual it has to be. And so, and I think that's missing. That's like a thing that's missing in a lot of heteronormative types of relationships because our culture, especially here in the U.S. is a very non-consensual type of culture. We live in a
Frances Crusoe (31:08.357)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:25.478)
rape culture, right? For lack of a, for like, you know, I don't want to be crude here, but like generally, like, women are not responsible for their body autonomy in a lot of places and with a lot of people. And so that's taken away from us. And so, trans people don't have the legal right in a lot of places here in the U.S. to say how they want to explore their bodies and like feel comfortable in their bodies. And so this, I, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:52.401)
way we children by the way so like it starts from the where children are considered like your belongings versus
Taina Brown she/hers (31:59.002)
Right, right. And you have to give hugs or kisses to these adults that they might not feel comfortable with, right? And so the consent thing, like I just remember I was sitting when I went back to college and I was sitting in a classroom and they were, we were talking about this and some random women's studies class, I'm sure. And you know, they were talking about how you have to have all these conversations for it to work.
And because of all the conversations, people have to be, there has to be like a level of consent there that is missing. So I don't know if this is more of a question or more of just a thought to just kind of get your feedback on, Frances, but like what.
Frances Crusoe (32:40.837)
I know what you're getting at and consent is, because I can go into a couple different works with this, consent is a very big thing in non-monogamous spaces. And one of the central premises of polyamory, which kind of differs from other avenues of non-monogamy is we don't own our partners. Our partners are free to explore.
their bodies with other people, their emotions with other people. There are some people who like, no, my wife can't, you know, she can't. We give that person the autonomy to explore how they see fit. We never want it to be a situation where, well, I can't do this because my husband says I can't do this or anything like that. That signifies ownership. Your husband doesn't own you, your boyfriend or girlfriend, don't own you. So I like the freedom that polyamory gives.
people, especially women, because a lot of women who are bisexual or even pansexual, whatever, are in relationships with, know, a woman in a relationship with a man, heterosexual looking relationships, they don't always get to explore that side of them that is also attracted to other genders. So I like the freedom that polyamory gives and I like partners who give their
partners the freedom to explore that side of themselves as well. However, on the flip side, there are a lot of polyamorous couples who have what's called a one penis policy where, oh, the girl, can be with other people as long as it's another woman. I can be the only penis that's in her life or whatever. I hate those type of relationships. But some people are OK with it or whatever. But they never gel with me. never cringe at those because it's almost because again, it's
Taina Brown she/hers (34:18.729)
Hmm.
Frances Crusoe (34:33.549)
It reinforces the fact that this man who's in the relationship, he gets to call the shots on what she can do with her body, or she gets to call the shot on who it is that she can be with in a relationship. And again, he feels like he owns her and he gives her a little bit of freedom, as long as it's within these parameters of, you can only get with another woman. And usually it's for his gaze anyway, because if she's with another woman, now he got too bad because he's with. So it brings it all back to him and what he wants.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:57.249)
Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (35:02.819)
and not necessarily what it is that she's interested in doing because she may want to have a relationship with another man that has nothing to do with him, but that's not something that he would ever be okay with. So there's people who are okay with that. It's not necessarily something that I am okay with. And there's a lot of debate in the polyamorous community as well about one penis policy relationships and things like that. I like the fact that whatever works for you works for you, but there's a lot of people who would absolutely push against this idea of
I can be in all these different loving relationships as long as he's okay with how it looks. Then you're not really getting the freedom that you deserve to explore relationships however you want to explore them.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:42.291)
Well, so much that sounds like it's really about, it sounds more like these relationships about sex than it is about care and commitment and relationships. So that's interesting. And I'm glad you brought that up because the other thing I wanted to say is like when we're talking about the consent and the ethical part of all of this, what comes up for me is, you know, these, the Mormon.
Frances Crusoe (35:47.567)
Yes. Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:48.38)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:01.873)
And it's probably not just Mormon, but the religious version of polyamory, which is polygamy, right? But it's always been about one man with multiple women. And to me, what seems different about what we're seeing becoming more more in the ether, people are talking about it, people are more open about it, is this version of polyamory that it's exactly that. not just about centering men. It is about saying everyone gets to have these whole...
Taina Brown she/hers (36:02.692)
.
Frances Crusoe (36:06.969)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:27.602)
experiences. And that's what feels very different than that other version that we, think people often equate it to like they only seen that version of this like, oh, it's him and it's about his needs and he gets to have all these wives. And it's probably hard for some people, especially who are more religious to understand this version of what polyamory looks like because it's not that.
Frances Crusoe (36:48.037)
It's not that, yeah. Polygamy is totally different than polyamory because again, polygamy is focused on the man and his collection of wives, girlfriends, sister wives, whatever you want it to be. And that is something that is in practice with a lot of people, a of cultures. But polyamory is you get to explore however many relationships you want to with whomever you want to. And there's no limitations on this. There should be any limitations on that, I should say.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:13.435)
Thank
Frances Crusoe (37:17.261)
I love to see women in non-monogamous relationships, because I feel like even to this day, women are still being funneled into this pipeline of women should only have a man or focus on his needs or whatever when there are so many women out there who could benefit from having multiple partners or whether it be relationships or sexual partners or whatever the case may be. I'm all for women getting the freedom to explore and
create these lives that benefit them in the best way possible. So if it's multiple partners, if it's just having one partner, that's fine, but at least having the freedom to do that. So I try to convert all my homegirls to getting as many boyfriends or husbands as they can, because we should have those options. Men have had options forever, and even to this day, they still have 1,000 different options. And women, we are only as valuable as our proximity to a man.
shouldn't be if that's the case well hell girl get all the menu cans so you're absolutely winning so
Becky Mollenkamp (38:21.753)
you know, it's funny, because I have a feeling, I don't know, I might be wrong, but based on my own feelings, I have a feeling that what keeps a lot of women and probably men too, from exploring going down this avenue is jealousy. And I'm sure you hear about this all the time, because I know every person I've ever talked to who's polyamorous says the number one thing they get asked about is, aren't you jealous? But I will say for myself, that is the thing, as I get older, the older I get, the more I, that becomes...
Taina Brown she/hers (38:30.938)
you
Frances Crusoe (38:41.957)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:48.679)
gets dulled for me and the more this kind of approach to living, I understand it much more. But that has always been probably the biggest thing for me that keeps me back. And I know that that jealousy is part of my conditioning, right? But it's there. I can't make it go away just because I understand how I got it doesn't mean make it go away. How do you deal with it? How do you see that issue being handled inside of polyamory? Are people sensitive to that? Because again,
It's there, I think for most of us it's there, even if we understand the reasons why it's there and maybe that it's not healthy or helpful, but it's, you you don't just magically say, okay, I'll no longer be jealous, right? Like there's no work inside that.
Frances Crusoe (39:29.231)
So I will always tell people that you should feel a bit of jealousy if you're in a non-monogamous space, because jealousy is a natural human feeling and reaction. And there's literally nothing wrong with being jealous. That just means that you feel something. For me and for most people who are in non-monogamous relationships, they'll tell you, yeah, I deal with jealousy. But the key to jealousy is actually identifying what is the root cause of your jealousy.
What is it that is making you feel insecure or jealous or whatever the case may be? Because there's always a route to it. So if I'm with a partner and he tells me that, I met somebody new and I'm so excited or whatever, if I'm starting to feel that twin of jealousy, then my job is to be like, hey, I'm feeling the kind of way. But also let me figure out what it is that I'm feeling. Is it that I'm feeling like you don't have as much time for me now or that you might leave me or whatever the case may be? Jealousy means that there's something in me that is not feeling right.
I need to figure out what it is that is causing that jealousy to manifest. And also let my partner know, like, hey, I'm feeling this kind of way and this is why, and this is what I need from you. So if it's, need more reassurance that, you know, this new person isn't going to take you away or anything like that. Or if I need more time or whatever the case may be. Jealousy just means that you just need to figure out where it's coming from and communicate with your partner what it is that you need to put that jealousy at bay.
A lot of people try to act like, I'm never jealous. And that could be the very well, that could very well be the case. But if you ever find yourself feeling jealous, just figure out why and have that conversation with your partner and let them know like, this is why I'm feeling this way. And this is what I need from you. A lot of people are afraid to advocate for themselves and their needs because they feel like, I'm being too needy or whatever the case may be. Your partner can't help you if they don't know what it is that.
needs to be fixed or whatever it is that needs to be helped with. So when I say that non-monogamous relationships require a professional level of communication, like you're going to always have these conversations about needing reassurance or just communicating on what your needs are, what his or her needs are. So the conversations never end. This is why I say that sex is like the last thing that's an issue in Montgomery Polyamory.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:47.551)
Hahaha
Frances Crusoe (41:49.955)
The biggest thing is communicating. You need to be comfortable enough to communicate with your partner that, I understand that you're doing this or you're doing that or you've met a new person. I'm starting to feel this way. This is what I need from you in order to feel more secure. And a good partner will be like, sure, absolutely. If you need more time, sure, we can schedule out more time or whatever. If you just need a forehead kiss or a hug or whatever the case may be, I can give you that because I want you to feel as secure in this relationship as you possibly can.
and I'll do whatever it is that I need to do to ensure that you are feeling comfortable even as I meet other people or you meet other people or whatever the case may be. So communication is the thing that you should always fall back on. So even if you are jealous or feeling whatever, talk to your partner about that. If you can't, that's more communication that needs to be had about why you can't talk to your partner.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:38.783)
That's probably why so many people aren't able to do polyamory because we're barely able to talk with one partner, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:39.063)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:44.876)
Yeah. Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (42:45.349)
If you can't if you are not good at communicating it will never work it will and that's like when I meet someone who is Either not non-monogamous or or they're curious about it. My first question is always how are you at communicating? Because if you can't communicate if you can't express how you feel or advocate for yourself It's never gonna work because you're be too afraid to be your full self and your authentic self even
your insecure or your jealous self in a relationship. if you cannot communicate well, it is never gonna work.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:20.363)
Yeah, I'm gonna put on my Women's Studies major hat real quick and just go over some definitions for like tech for like technical purposes. So there's polyamory, polyandry and polygamy, right? So like polyamory is
And these are the technical definitions, right? This is not how everybody might choose to identify the way that they're engaging in relationships. But polyamory is the multiple relationships, right? Like having multiple partners. Polygamy is when a man, someone who identifies as a man has multiple wives. And polyandry is when someone who identifies as a woman has multiple husbands.
Frances Crusoe (44:06.661)
That's right.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:07.058)
so, and then also just want to clarify the differences between polyamory, polygamy and polyandry and ethical non-monogamy. As far as I understand, I understand I could, and I could be wrong here. So if you know more about this, Francis, for sure, feel free to jump in. But poly, the polys are about the relationships. Whereas what I understand about ethical non-monogamy is that there isn't necessarily a relationship that's happening.
you might just be sleeping with people. Hmm?
Frances Crusoe (44:36.933)
the umbrella term. So again, not an expert, have not read all the books, and there probably is some debate about it. But the way I see it and the way I frame it to people is ethical non-monogamy is the umbrella term. Like polyamory, swinging, polyandry, polygamy, open relationships, they all fall under a form of ethical non-monogamy. Some people call it ethical non-monogamy, but ethical non-monogamy, that's the umbrella term, and all these different relationship dynamics fall under
Taina Brown she/hers (44:50.519)
Mm, okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:00.023)
that make sense.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:06.653)
It's basically anything that isn't cheating, which is I'm exploring some avenue of relationship, whether it's sexual or not, with another person outside of my primary relationship and that person knows. Right? That's really, because otherwise it's cheating. That's not the ethical way.
Frances Crusoe (45:08.995)
Right.
Frances Crusoe (45:18.211)
Right, exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:18.742)
Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (45:21.925)
Exactly. I think it's cheating, yeah, it's, it's anything under ethical nominal, all those different categories, swinging included, open relationships, they're all included under some form of ethical non-monogamy because the people who are involved, they are aware they are consenting to be in these particular dynamics.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:36.939)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:44.215)
Okay, last question, and this might be a loaded question. So I should have asked this earlier. So I know you still consider yourself a person of faith. So how does that, like, how do you, I think for a lot of people, they might find that hard to reconcile with.
Frances Crusoe (45:59.289)
Mm-hmm. Actually, no.
Frances Crusoe (46:09.477)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:11.764)
with you also being polyamorous and bisexual. So what does that look like for you?
Frances Crusoe (46:19.375)
So for me, that looks like believing in a God that...
would not limit how many people can love me and how many people that I can love. Even in my church days, I never really subscribed to the idea that, if you have sex outside of marriage, you're gonna go to hell, or if you're in these relationships, you're gonna go to hell or whatever. I never really subscribed to those because I refuse to believe that me being in a, even if it's a monogamous relationship, me being in a committed, loving relationship where I feel safe, I feel loved, I feel cared for.
I refuse to believe that God is going to condemn that, whether it's me in a relationship with a woman or a man or whatever the case may be. And I also carry that over into my relationships with my partners, where we are all consenting adults, we are all very loving, we care for each other, we support each other. And I refuse to believe in a God that would condemn me for being in these safe, secure relationships. No, they don't look like what's the norm or what we've traditionally been taught, but I feel like God would be more
okay and accepting of the fact that I am loved, I am cared for, I am secure. In these two relationships that I'm in, that he doesn't care, she didn't care. Like it's not a big deal. There's bigger things to worry about whether or not if I were in these relationships and I am my worst version of myself or I'm being abused or whatever, I think that would be his heart more than it would be that I just happen to be in love and loved by someone who also just happens to be married or whatever. So.
For me, I always have to remind myself that...
Frances Crusoe (48:03.845)
It still having some bit of faith, even being outside of the church at this point in my life, but still wanting to believe in a God that still is for me and for the things that make me happy and make me feel secure, even if it goes against what the traditional faith spaces would say. So I would always go back to the idea that the God who loves me, who cares for me, who is
the biggest supporter advocate for my freedom and my liberation, that as long as I'm in relationships that are healthy and bring me happiness and bring me joy, he's on board with that. And there's nothing else that would cause me to believe otherwise.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:34.293)
I love that.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:50.27)
Yeah, I love that. It's such a anti-capitalist view of love, right? Like, I feel like our society, church, culture treats love as like this finite resource, right? And if we're talking about like, I mean, all these scriptures are just like running through my head, you know, that I was forced to memorize when I was younger, right? About God being love and love never failing and like all this stuff. And it's like, well, if we believe that and we believe that like,
Frances Crusoe (49:03.022)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:20.605)
If we're being told that we should believe that God is love and that God is infinite, then wouldn't that make love infinite, right? It's like this very expansive definition of love that isn't restrictive, but makes room for all kinds of relationships and for all kinds of people.
Frances Crusoe (49:37.273)
Right. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:40.142)
Any last questions, Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp (49:43.871)
No, I think it's been amazing. I again, I have always been pretty darn monogamous and the older I get, the more I so understand. think it's, I don't know, especially for women as we get older, we run out of fucks to give. It's like, yeah, like relationships, in my case, it's more like relationships are just exhausting and I totally understand opening up and being like, I don't need to be the primary person caring for this person. I can use help.
Frances Crusoe (49:54.757)
Yeah!
Frances Crusoe (50:05.509)
Oh, I'm really not gonna stop today. I'm not gonna stop today.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:12.797)
Yeah, yeah, and I think it just it goes to the fact that like as humans we have needs and all those needs cannot be met by one person. So whether you are polyamorous or not, like you still have friends and family members who are meeting some of your needs. Like your one partner isn't going to meet all of your needs. And so
Becky Mollenkamp (50:32.415)
Well, when we discount, we make relationships so much about the sexual part of a relationship. And like you said, Frances, that's such a small part of a relationship. And the truth is most of us are polyamorous in that we have loving relationship with all sorts of people. They just don't include the sexual element.
Frances Crusoe (50:46.661)
Exactly. Don't equate them like friendships. I always say that my friends are my soulmates. These are people that I want to be with my whole life. And this is why even when I was younger, like whoever is in my friend group, these are the people who I want to literally live the rest of life with. And Tanya has mentioned this before, we should all get a compound. That's what I want. should. For me, all of my friends, all of my homegirls just get a compound and we live and do life together. If we bring in relationships with it, great.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:52.114)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:06.067)
That's the plan. That's the plan.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:08.617)
See ya.
Frances Crusoe (51:15.845)
But yeah, we always discount the friendships that we have because they're not sexual relationships. Which means that a lot of people are just putting relationships into this box that, you know, they're the sexual element to it. But friends fulfill those needs, relationships fulfill those needs that you have as a person, as a human. just like we have an expansive amount of friendships, why can't we have an expansive amount of relationships?
if that's what you want to explore. Again, not saying that everyone should be non-monogamous, but there are other options out there for those who want to explore.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:53.375)
Yeah, and I think the more we understand and expand our view of what love means, the more that we can see like the sexual piece is such a small part of it and yet we make it the primary thing about polyamory. And when you start to reduce that, you know, remove that piece and understand that it's a small piece, I think for most people they can find a place of more understanding. Because I have a feeling a lot of the people who are critical are the people who are saying that like Jezebel and you're just sleeping with people.
Frances Crusoe (52:04.357)
Thank you.
Frances Crusoe (52:18.359)
Exactly, because they're only focusing on that sexual aspect. I'm like, I have one of my partners, he lives six hours away. So it's not like sex is our biggest thing because we only see each other every couple of months or so. So our relationship has to be rooted in something else other than sex. And that's the case for a lot of relationships that are non-monogamous because even people who are married and in monogamous relationships, look, sex only lasts for however long. And then you still have to deal with this person for the rest of day.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:19.703)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:35.277)
Just a second, I'm streaming.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:42.483)
I think that's part of the gift of the gift of paraminopause, menopause is that sex becomes a smaller, not a non-important or non-existent part, but I think the older you get, the more you recognize how much more robust a relationship needs to be to survive than just sexual chemistry. Yeah.
Frances Crusoe (52:54.501)
Alright.
Frances Crusoe (53:00.227)
You have to literally be able to say, this is someone who I can enjoy throughout my day when we're not in the bedroom. If it's not something that you can see when you talk about your partner, then hey, some conversation need to be had.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:06.502)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:11.271)
It just may not last and that's okay. Well, anyway, this has been great and thank you so much, Frances. I really appreciate your openness about everything and hopefully mom and aunties don't listen.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:12.913)
Bye.
Frances Crusoe (53:17.925)
they don't. They, except for Facebook, they're beholden to Facebook, so they'll never see this.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:24.11)
Hahaha.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:24.509)
Thanks.