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Finding life after loss, Two Dancing Widows dives into the stories of resilience, hope, and transformation. Hosts Toni and Hettie welcome new guests each week, from widowers and life coaches to those battling severe illness, who share their journeys through struggle and their paths back to joy. This podcast is for anyone navigating grief or simply looking for inspiration to live and love deeply again. Tune in for heartfelt conversations that remind us all that healing, while challenging, is a dance worth stepping into.
Coming up on this episode of Two Dancing Widows.
You get into this rut at least I feel like I have done that a few times where I should be happy about certain things,
but it feels strange to be happy and I'm not certain why.
He feels like it's a betrayal.
I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out, but Joy has become a different times un-am familiar.
It has felt like it's remote like I can watch people having a good time.
It's like being outside the circle.
Welcome to Two Dancing Widows.
The podcast where hosts Tony and Heady explore life after loss and the strength refined in each other's stories.
In this episode, Tony and Heady take a heartfelt look at something many people don't expect on the grief journey.
What happens when Joy starts to feel unfamiliar?
They open up about the strange distance that can grow between you and happiness,
the feeling of being on the outside looking in, and the quiet fear that embracing joy might mean risking more loss.
Through honest conversation, they explore emotional guardedness, the weight of grief, and the courage it takes to slowly let Joy back in.
On your own terms.
If this episode resonates with you, we invite you to connect with us.
Visit our website at twodancingwittows.transistor.fm where you can find links to our Facebook community and more resources.
And now, here's Heady to begin this week's episode.
In the twilight glow, where memories blend, two souls reminisce on life's winding been.
Yeah, yeah, with laughter and tales from a time so bold they share the stories yet untold.
Oh!
Well, hello again, it's the two dancing widows, so it's Meet Heady and Tony, and here we are once again, having a conversation.
Today, we'd like to talk about when Joy feels unfamiliar.
What do you think of that, Tony?
I like the topic. I'm just wondering where we're going to wander to with it.
I don't know, you know, sometimes you get into this rudely, so I feel like I have done that a few times, where I should be happy about certain things, but it feels strange to be happy.
And I'm not, I'm not certain why.
Do you feel like it's a betrayal?
I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out, but Joy has become a different times unfamiliar.
It has felt like it's remote, like I can watch people having a good time.
It's like being outside the circle, even though their friends is like being outside the circle of friends.
They're laughing, they're having a good time.
They're talking about things that used to make me, you know, really laugh and crack up.
And I do it, but sort of an artificial level, it's not real joy.
So grief has become sometimes your new normal.
I wouldn't say it's my new normal, but what I'd say is I feel like I'm holding back from joy.
Okay. Kind of like emotional numbness.
Or being very guarded emotionally.
Guarded emotionally, guarded emotionally.
Afraid that if I'm really happy with something or somebody that they're going to disappear.
The person in the present, yes, or Jimmy.
Because I'd wonder about that sometimes if we move on, does that mean we're not taking our Jimmy's with us?
Are we closing the door on them?
One of my friends remarried, and that's actually the words that were used is that chapter of my life.
That door is closed, that old door.
And so now I have a new life, and that's a new chapter.
So I'd wonder sometimes if that is part of, if we close the door, then where are our Jimmy's?
You know, I guess it's a good point, but I don't feel like carrying on necessarily indicates that we are replacing our Jimmy's.
But at the same time, it's just that life in general does not have the same amount of joy that it once did.
And things that were funny or ha ha ha particulars before do not necessarily feel funny and that ha ha way as before.
Sometimes they're darn right puzzling because I go off track and I'm beginning to think, well, why did I think that was funny before?
What's it something personal between the two of you?
Yeah, it's not something that is totally specific.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know intellectually it's okay to feel sometimes less joy than other times.
And it's okay to grieve.
That's what we talk about.
We talk about grief. We talk about holding on to it and letting go of it.
We talk about changing and understanding your new reality and all of those things.
And yet sometimes joy in and of itself is not J.O.Y.
It's not joy.
It's something other than and it's like a wet noodle.
It's hard to explain.
But it's sort of like when you said the other day you said, oh, this weekend I just didn't feel like it not a bit.
And I refuse to think of that as depression.
But what I do know is that it's a moment in time.
But how do we address it?
Yeah, this weekend, like I said at the conference, usually I have a blast.
I'm so tired from partying and hanging out and I just didn't feel that.
So I didn't want to spoil my friends, my sisters, their joy.
So I thought, well, if I stay in the room or if I sit, sometimes I would just sit out at a table.
And I was glad to see them and hug and talk to them.
But I just didn't feel like participating in the joy.
I kind of get that.
It's really funny because I do know that we are going to talk to some experts.
In case anybody else out there is feeling like that sometimes just a little joyless and not really knowing why you're feeling that way.
Because you know how you sit back and you watch children play.
And I delight in that.
I absolutely love that.
But it's also what it does, I think, is it refocuses me back into my own reality of having watched my children play.
But now they're grown and there's one that's missing because I've lost her.
And like I always say people are like, where did you lose them?
Can you go back and get them?
No, not that kind of loss.
But it's like I can bring grief into the happiest moments.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think that's part of our fear is that you don't want to destroy those moments for others by bringing that sadness into it.
And so I think for me it was very comfortable to sit in my sadness.
I was very cozy, I was very comfortable.
I didn't feel unsafe, I felt okay.
And then I could move through that.
And today is a good day.
Yeah, I mean, and they are.
A lot of them are good days.
And I don't feel like I am unnecessarily more bitter or joyless or any of that.
I mean, I could be just driving down the street and just humming and singing to the music.
And then I was sitting a song come on that will remind me of my past and my past included so many people that I love.
You know, I was cleaning out a drawer the other day as you know I'm getting some work done around the house and decluttering.
It's springtime and I think that's sort of a thing that we think we have to do and some of us actually do do it come spring we start doing spring cleaning.
And I pulled a picture out.
I looked at that picture and I'll be done.
I started counting all the people that were missing.
Yes.
And it turned out there are only two people left in the picture of six.
Yeah, I keep my parents wedding picture always framed it.
I love looking at it and all of that.
But I've had that experience where now that I look at it, everyone in the picture is gone.
Every single person on there.
My two uncles used to I used to be able to look at it and talk to them on the phone.
But they in the last couple of years are also gone.
So everybody in that picture is an ancestor now.
So yeah, it takes that takes some of the joy.
But I think what we've talked before I think the last episode about being intentional and reversing some of that fear based thinking or
and I think what we have to look at that picture now and say while these people are now ancestors,
boy did I love them, they sure loved me.
And every time I look at that picture, I have to be reminded of things that we talked about, things that we did together, things that made us laugh.
And so that I have to bring that joy to the picture.
Yeah, that's a good thing too because even just look at the picture of my mom and dad's wedding.
And it's the only picture I have where absolutely everyone except for one might be my uncle Sammy.
It's the only person that's not in a picture.
But it's everyone in dads, I'm immediate family and everybody in moms immediate family and mom and dad are sitting there.
This is before me, it's before my brother is before us, you know, all like all that stuff.
It's their wedding picture.
And actually there are two aunts, you know, my dad's I was thinking that when you said it because I know what picture.
Yeah, I'm yet too hot.
I have two aunts that are still.
Which means that 48 of the 50 people are not.
And I guess I think about how fleeting this life truly is.
Yes.
Because do you know how you can look back and remember we were talking the other week about connecting, reconnecting if it was necessary unnecessary.
I've had several conversations with others about that topic since because they knew that we did that and they had to add something to that.
And I think it was, which was good to hear because they were different opinions.
But, but it also lets you know that you do you have to pick yourself up and wipe yourself off, dust yourself off because none of us are that long for this for this world.
Even though when you go from being, you know, nothingness or brand new baby to being in your 70s.
Certainly you're on the edges of being and antique.
I mean, everything needs to be replaced, needs, teeth, hearing aids, things need to be, you know, we've got hips, we've got, you know, like that my girlfriend was something the other day I had seen her a while.
Actually, it doesn't sound like it's been a long time she said, girl, you're not going to believe when you send me, I say, you're looking good.
I've lost a lot of weight, I can't wear any of my clothes.
I said, well, that's a good thing, she was never heavy, but you know, she was heavier.
And she says, no, it's because I couldn't eat. Well, why couldn't you eat?
Well, they, you know, my dentures had to be replaced, they broke them, then they wouldn't fit.
And I've got some, some bone loss and they think I'm too old, she's in her 80s.
They think I'm too old to start doing this bone replacement stuff.
So we're having to, you know, do some other things and I think in myself, oh my God, this sounds awful.
You know, it's just what I have to look forward to.
And she was saying, and so nothing fits.
But, and also when you see me, don't be alarmed, but I have a walking stick.
I was like, a walking stick, what are you doing with a walking stick?
Well, you know, I told you I have my knees replaced and then I started leaning on the other side and my hip needs to be replaced.
I was like, oh, a lot.
Oh, you know, but at the same time, at the end of the conversation, we both laughing about and thank God I'm still here.
Yes, and you know what, to me, the joy and all of that, you have the two odds, which means you have longevity in your family.
And one will be 100 next year.
She will.
And, and also, even your girlfriend, thank goodness there are walking sticks.
Thank goodness there are these things that can help us to keep going and to be able to have joy.
So I guess we have to find the joy in those things too.
Yeah, I hope it's not a me pulling out a picture of she and I in our bikinis years ago.
Hey, there's a joy in that time.
Oh, but we have, well, we used to put on baby.
We used to make us make a whole lot of regrets.
No, we put on our bathing suits and which we'll do in a couple of weeks and cue cover ups and keep strolling to the beach and have a good time and be grateful that there is joy in that.
Yeah, we are going to the beach and we'll have to talk about that and we'll have to tell people about that when we get back and maybe we will find some joy there.
But in route to thinking about the beach, this is what I thought about about you all dear.
Oh dear, yes.
No, I'm just wanting to be sensitive because I know, you know, even though you're skipping around and driving and doing all this stuff again that you, you know, did just have your ankle broken.
Yes.
On both sides and all the baddies still have some swelling and things that the doctors said that you have to look forward to for the next year.
So while we are considered, I don't know if we're considered ocean front or ocean side, but the way that the subdivision is made that we will be in its agitated communities from my house, you know, so I've been there a lot of times.
But they're sort of in the middle of the block.
So we have to walk down what I would say.
I don't even know if it's a full block, but we have to walk down and then over the bridge is a private beach.
And I was trying to think now it's time you're going to be able to make this walk.
And then I thought, well, they have, it's because it's a cul-de-sac.
I can drive you down to the overpass if I need to.
But then you were talking about walking around and doing all this walking at a regional.
Right.
So maybe you're, you can do it.
I think maybe I can. The only thing I'm a little bit hesitant about are stairs.
Are there stairs down to the beach?
It's not really stairs. It's a ramp.
Oh, no, that's fine.
So you had to walk up the ramp.
And then you know, when you walk over the ramp, it's not really a bridge.
I mean, the ocean is right there.
But it's like you have to walk through the sand and get to the ocean, right?
Because the ocean is there. Well, some days, some days the ocean comes right up to the stairs.
And you can know how high the tide is.
But to get into the house, there are five or six steps up.
But there are, there are no more than what you have going into your house.
Okay.
But you're going to be on the first floor.
You have to, you have to room first floor.
I know. I'll be upstairs.
So there's joy in that.
It's joy in your friends looking out for you.
No, there's joy in the fact that I think I can make it up there.
You can't.
Well, that's joy.
Now tell me, let me, let me challenge you.
When is the last time that you could say that you really felt joy recently?
Ooh.
Interesting.
What kind of joy?
Any kind. Any kind.
That you actually laughed out loud or just felt great about something recent with.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Well, you know, actually, hmm.
Faito, not.
Well, maybe Easter.
It was not.
How can I say it?
I had guests, right?
And we had a really good time together.
We really did.
And we talked and laughed about some of the stupidest things.
One of the things we were laughing at is, of course,
we had bunch of old men here.
We talked about them being old men.
And that really cracked me up.
But it wasn't the same type of joy that you have when you're surrounded by family.
I definitely felt it's a mix joy.
That's why I said, you know, that sometimes joy feels unfamiliar.
Because it's a joy, but it's not the same joy.
It's when your children run and you grab your run the neck or even when they come in.
And you know how we, we talk about how they tell us what to do now.
Yes.
How they boss us around.
Tell us, you know, what you're going to eat, where you're going to live, where you're not going to live,
when you're going to go up the steps of where you're not allowed to write.
Or the other day, you know, I had to have this, well, you know, forgive me for saying it,
but a little procedure.
And so, you know, I had to get the professional and whatever it is that they give you.
And so a dear friend took me.
And next thing I know on I did wake up, she showed me the way I was.
And next thing I know on I did wake up, she showed me these pictures of me.
And I'm like, how are you taking pictures of me?
Oh, I had to send them to your kids.
I want to know.
I know they couldn't be here.
They couldn't take me, but they needed to know.
Is mom going in?
Is mom out?
What's she, and so they've got this dastardly picture of me leaned up against you know,
they let the bars up on the fence.
Yeah, I'm like, arm is don't over there.
My leg is all in the air.
My head.
I was like, how did I get in this position?
Nobody kind of, you know, just I don't know.
I seemed like I should have been lying flat.
But I looked like I was at home in my bed.
And all I know is that I remember going in and then talking to me.
And I remember waking up and then saying, well, you see out the window.
And I said, yes.
And they said, remember when you were here the first time we told you you couldn't see out the window
because the back of your head was to the window.
But when you come back, you'll be facing the outside and facing the playground in the kids
that play there.
Of course, the kids were not out playing.
So I felt like, well, we were the kids.
But yeah, so when, you know, that's what I mean by joy feeling unfamiliar is that you still have joy.
But it's not the same joy that you have.
Okay.
So do you find yourself comparing it to past joys?
Not comparing it.
I don't ever conscientiously compare it.
I involuntarily know it is not right.
Right.
You know, it's just like, oh, this is fun.
But I know it's not.
Yeah.
I mean, it's hard to explain how do you compare like this fun to that fun?
No, it's even one of those questions when people ask you, when have you ever had the most fun in your life?
When was the most joyful moment of your life?
When was the worst?
Well, now that might be easier to determine.
Well, you know it was.
Absolutely.
I think we both could go right to that instantly.
Totally.
But I also, that was one of the questions of Madison's interview, was what was one of the most joyful times in your life.
And I had to think about that for a minute because there's all kind of joyful times in our life.
Some with friends, some with family, some just with yourself.
And so it was hard for me to pit every birth of a kid as a joyful time.
That's all.
So there's so many places that we've experienced joy in our lives.
And we've had great vacations with a lot of joy, a lot of fun.
So no time is exactly like the other.
It's just a different experience, a different joyful adventure.
I guess you could say that.
But I guess what I'm trying to or dealing with is how is it that every time or sometimes when I'm having all of this joy,
I wind up having, you know, like things go into it that creep into it or events creep into it that dampen the joy.
I guess you could say because like I said, you're sitting there, you're laughing at your friends, you have a great time.
And all of a sudden you realize someone that you loved dearly is missing.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
We said opening Christmas gifts this year.
And I realized that, you know, my children are around me, but one is missing.
Am I joyful?
Yes, I am certainly joyful.
Am I happy?
I'm really happy.
But am I sad too?
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that's okay.
I mean, because I think that will always be that separate part for us that, yes, I am happy we're having a great time.
I feel that with the grandkids.
They make me laugh.
They're like wild.
I don't know what, but they're funny and they make me laugh.
They send me videos and all of that, but I can't help always looking at them and looking at Alex and thinking,
oh my God, Jimmy would just laugh himself silly just to see him and be there and experience that.
But that's not to be, as you said before, in this lifetime.
Well, is it, is it something that we have to give ourselves permission?
Do we have to allow ourselves to experience both joy and sorrow in the same moments without being overtaken or the joy being washed away by the sorrow?
How, I mean, how am I to frame that in my mind?
I think that is the challenge.
And I think it's just accepting that at some times that this is going to be my new normal, if you will, that I'm going to be experiencing this joy.
But sometimes the sadness may creep in and it's okay.
And I think you can acknowledge and I talk to my ancestors.
So I say, you know, wow, Jimmy, you will love this kid. He is wild like you and Jay.
And you would just have so much fun with him.
And then I go right back to playing with him myself.
Do you ever think about the whole idea of the concept?
But so I guess what you're saying is in a way is that you kind of speak into the silence.
The silence of those that are missing the silence of not having that person so dear and near to you close to you.
So you speak to them and these are the things that you said.
I do. You know, I talk to them in my car.
You know that you guys think I'm a little weird talking to yourself.
No, I talk to the ancestors.
I tell them what's going on.
I tell them, are you watching what's going on?
I need a little help here.
And do they ever answer?
I they answer in various ways.
They don't physically speak back to me.
But I I feel that they answer my things that unfold in my life.
So now our listeners, you can tell.
I'll say this to all of our listeners who are kind of testing her sanity with that last question.
That was definitely a test to make sure that all of her rocks are where they should be.
And that's in the same place.
Oh, I think this has been a good conversation.
And I do think I thank you for it.
And I do think that I have to sometimes just whether it's given myself permission or allowing myself to just experience the purity of joy rather than if you quote edit, unquote it.
Editing the joy, you know, or moderating the joy with by bringing in the reality of it.
I don't know and I hope I hope I can look at my kids are not kids.
They're they're always be my kids, but they are fully grown, fully actualized old adults at this point in their 50s.
But I don't think I will ever watch them at Christmas time at a gathering where we're all together open their gifts and not realized that one of them is not there.
Absolutely, absolutely. And that thing that's that is very positive thing that you do think of that child that is not there.
And you do miss her and you acknowledge that because you loved her and she loved you and she's always going to be there in in spirit with you.
So you acknowledge that.
I for me that helps me acknowledge acknowledging that.
And just sometimes I'll just say this I feel so sad that I can physically touch you, but I know that you're here with me.
So let's just know by now that I'm not one of those people that believes in, you know, I believe in self help.
I don't believe in going to talk to psychiatrists or psychologists or whatever they are counselors and all that kind of stuff.
I believe that we can talk ourselves through this, but for those that don't or for those that really can't get to the other side, what do you recommend?
I recommend finding yourself a good therapist.
And if the first one doesn't fit for you, don't continue to see that person find someone else.
For me, I had a wonderful therapist when Jimmy was going through his 16 year bedridden experience.
I said, and I could not have made it.
Maybe I could have made it, but I could not have made it as well as I did through that without my therapist.
So I think that it is not a sign of weakness.
It is wonderful to have someone who is totally not connected to you, doesn't know you, but can listen to you and help you out.
I think it is fruitful. I think it is fruitful for some people.
Again, I think for me, it feels like, well, by the time I tell you my story, the full of it, I probably have gotten to the side of it I need to be to the other side anyway.
Because they don't know you. They can't look at you and tell what you're feeling.
They fully expect you to be a participant in the therapy session.
Absolutely.
When I speak these things out loud, they do. They sound different.
I find reconciliation in speaking it out loud sometimes.
So maybe what you said about talking to the ancestors is more real than what I maybe understood previously.
Yes, for me. And my therapist was just wonderful.
Good. I actually get the therapist, by the way.
My cousin is a psychologist. And of course, I couldn't be treated by her.
So she recommended me.
For those people that don't have a cousin who's a set off, how do they find one?
I would say you can start with social organizations or you can start with your church if you're a member of a church and asking for a recommendation, your physician.
Your doctor can refer you to someone.
An American Academy of Psychologists is also a resource.
Especially if you want to sit back and read the reviews of the person.
The person's absolutely.
The life of this person.
And then kind of give it the weight that it should that it deserves.
Because someone else doesn't like or doesn't click with someone.
Does not mean that that might not be a good person for you.
You have to read about why they said they didn't click with them.
That might not be concern of yours.
And so nowadays too, Eddie, people don't even have to go leave their homes.
They have so many therapists that are online.
Yeah, those therapists are making a lot of money.
They don't have to have to have office space.
No, they don't.
They can sit right there and talk to their clients on Zoom.
When we say train fare.
Yes.
I actually, I actually went in person, but you don't have to, if you don't want to go in.
Something in it for everybody.
Yes.
Absolutely.
So I think I put on my dancing shoes.
What about you?
I think so.
I put on my shiny white dance shoes.
And sneakers.
Really, I have to teach toady.
And for you guys that know, you know, she's got these sparkles all over me.
We're going to call them the old lady sparkles.
And the reason why is because as you get older, you feel less and less seen.
So we wear more and more glitter.
And Tony is full flesh glittery today.
She's got it on her breast, on her collar, on her earrings, and on her shoes.
So remember being intentional about making yourself feel upbeat and joyful.
So this is why her is glitter.
It requires glitter and the Ling.
I thank you for joining us this week.
I hope that there is a little bit of something in it for all of you.
It wasn't just a job salad or just a toss salad.
And we look forward to having you come back and join us again.
So until then, put on your dancing shoes and enjoy life.
Until next time.
Until next time.
In the twilight glow,
Where memories blend,
Two souls reminisce on life's winding bed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're laughter and tails from a time so bold,
They share the stories yet I'm told.
Oh,
Two dancing widows in the dance of life's embrace.
Finding rhythm after 70 in time in space.
With every step a new story unfolds.
In the journey the beauty of aging is told.
To dancing widows in the dance of life's embrace.
Finding rhythm after 70 in time in space.
With every step a new story unfolds.
In the journey the beauty of aging is told.