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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire. We have all been to a conference where the breakout session will tell you what you expect to learn based upon the session you're about to go in. And today we are going to learn about durable skills, and your takeaway is going to be you're going to understand what durable skills are, why they're important, and most importantly, what's being done around the country to make sure our students are equipped with durable skills. I'm Jason Altmire, this is Career Education Report, and today we are joined by Tim Taylor, who is the founder and president of America Succeeds. And Tim, rather than me just reading your bio, you've got a very interesting background. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Tim Taylor (00:57):
Thanks, Jason. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you today. Yeah, I come from your part of the world. I was born in Washington DC and grew up in the Washington suburbs and spent some time after grad school working on Capitol Hill for a couple of members of Congress. And about 25 years ago, we pulled our rats from the race and we moved out to Denver, Colorado. And I founded a couple of nonprofits there, originally Colorado Succeeds, which engaged business leaders to work on education policy and advocacy on a state level. And then having experienced some success there and some funders who came to us and asked if we could expand, we spun off America Succeeds from there and have been working nationally for 10 years. February was our 10th anniversary. So we've been at this a while and we've had some great successes, and we're super proud of the work we've been able to do and engaging business leaders to improve education outcomes for young people.
Jason Altmire (01:55):
You do a lot of work at America Succeeds with employers. And employers, of course, are the third party validators for the education system. They're the people that hire graduates across higher education and they let schools know what the need is going to be, what the demand in the workforce will be in the future to make sure that we're not educating and training students for jobs that were available 10 years ago, or even today, but jobs that are going to be available tomorrow and 10 years from now. So when you put together America Succeeds, what was the mission in bringing all of these employers together? What do you hope to achieve as an organization?
Tim Taylor (02:36):
Well, you pretty much nailed it. We were founded to engage business leaders to modernize education systems for the mutual benefit of the learners and the employers. So we partner with employers on what we call the demand side, what they are looking for young people to be successful, create economic mobility and be able to contribute to their communities. And then we take that and we use that constituency to engage the supply side, which are the education systems, to ensure that young people have the knowledge, skills, and ability to succeed in today's economy. And as rapidly as the world is changing today, that's a task for education systems to keep up and to stay modern and to have the agility to do that. And so it really does. Employers have a very important role in being engaged in the education systems to make sure that they get the types of students that they're looking for to be successful.
Jason Altmire (03:32):
And you have talked a lot as an organization about durable skills. And we hear a lot about the skills gap, and I think most people think about the hands-on skills that are needed. You're an employer, you're looking for workers in whatever type of job that they would do, and you want them to be educated and have the hands-on skills. But durable skills are a little bit different. And I think people, when you think about soft skills, it's kind of getting to the point, but you're even going a little bit further than that. So talk about what you mean by durable skills.
Tim Taylor (04:06):
Yeah, we coined the term about four years ago to represent what a lot of employers refer to as soft skills. Some people call them 21st century skills. But really, those terms don't capture how important these skills are. These are skills that last a lifetime. You take them with you from job to job, and they power entire careers. I often refer to them as the second rung on the career ladder. It's just impossible to have a successful career without these types of skills. And so while technical skills are evolving at an unprecedented pace, particularly at the advent of AI, there's this important set of durable skills that we need to make sure that young people are developing and being able to demonstrate so that they can participate in the workforce.
Tim Taylor (04:53):
So we define durable skills as how you use what you know, so critical thinking, communication, collaboration, creativity, and then how we show up in the world, things like leadership, resilience, self-awareness, and a growth mindset. And it's that is that combination, those durable skills, along with technical skills, that get somebody hired into the workforce and allows them to create a career trajectory and be successful as they switch careers or they move from one job to another. Those durable skills are their anchor.
Jason Altmire (05:26):
I think when people think about these sort of intangible personality attributes and skills that can be learned, some are innate, but some can be learned, a lot can be learned, you understand, I think as an employer, that you need employees and workers on your team that know how to interrelate with one another, that can get along with the team, that can think in an innovative and forward thinking way. But when you talk about durable skills, you're going much than that. You talked about some of the things that you're going to expect all workers to have in the workplace. So maybe talk a little bit more and give some examples of that strategic thinking, of that creativity that employers are going to expect. But more importantly, how can people be educated? How can people be trained and learn those types of skills?
Tim Taylor (06:19):
Yeah, spot on. So we started with this hypothesis that learners, learners and earners, we use those sort of interchangeably, first need to learn it to become an earner, would need this regardless of their industry, regardless of their geography, and regardless of their ultimate education attainment level. And we started, because of my background on Capitol Hill, by going to a bunch of industry associations. So we talked to manufacturers and healthcare organizations, CompTIA on the tech side, others, and said, "What does it take to be successful in your industry these days?"
Tim Taylor (06:49):
And across the board, everybody mentioned that these skills are foundational to be successful. So we had some anecdotal evidence. And then what we did is we went to Emsi Burning Glass and we ran an analysis. So we looked at 80 million job descriptions and we ran about 110 durable skills terms through that 80 million job descriptions and found that seven of the top 10 most in demand skills across 80 million jobs are durable skills, and that in fact, the top five durable skills were requested in job descriptions 4.7 to almost five times more than the top five hard skills. So it was just overwhelming evidence to suggest that there was no real way to be successful in the world of work without developing these skills. And as we started doing more and more work about how young people develop, we discovered that there was a lot of inequity around this.
Tim Taylor (07:45):
So a lot of families with means, their kids develop this in organized sports or arts or music programs or around the dinner table conversation, and kids without as much opportunity to that were not getting this through their everyday classroom experience, and that's because we weren't really embedding these types of skills into the classroom. And when we first started talking to educators about this, their answer was, "Well, educators are being tasked with a lot. We have to deliver a lot in the time we have kids. And there's not enough time in the day to add a critical thinking course or a collaboration course," to which employers immediately say, "You don't think critically from 11 to 11:45, and then go to math. You think critically while you're doing math, you collaborate while you're in science." And this has been the big bulk of our work, is trying to bring the durable skills movements down into the classroom so there's greater equity, there's more opportunity for economic mobility for every kid, not just those kids who are getting this outside of school.
Jason Altmire (08:48):
And that's one of the things that you focus on in this report. I think it's amazing. You talked about 80 million job listings that you looked at and how important durable skills were to those employers, but you broke it down in all kind of ways, but one of the ways was by state. So can you give some examples of states that are aligning their coursework with the industry demanded skills, the type of durable skills you're talking about?
Tim Taylor (09:16):
Yeah, there's a couple of states who are on the forefront of this. I'd give a shout out to Indiana, to Utah. North Carolina is doing some good work around this. Arkansas is doing some good work around this. And you mentioned we did look. We took the 80 million, and then we broke it down state by state. And I have a colleague who likes to say that states like to think of themselves as very special snowflakes and that they're very different from one another. But when it comes to durable skills, they're much more similar than they are different. Again, what stood out to us is every industry, every geography, urban, suburban, rural, and again, whether you're entering the workforce with a high school diploma with some post-secondary certificates, stackable credentials, two-year, four-year degree, this is bedside manner for doctors, so it does not matter at which point you enter the workforce, these skills are critical.
Tim Taylor (10:14):
And that was what was so powerful for us and what really became the opportunity to make durable skills, a national initiative to make sure kids have access to this. And I'll add one other layer that we found in the research, and that's for mid-skill, mid-wage jobs and high skill, high wage jobs, durable skills are in greater demand than for low skill, low wage jobs. So when we think about the types of jobs we want young people to have and the types of jobs that will create economic mobility and a family sustaining wage, it is these durable skills that start to make the difference of a young person being successful or not.
Jason Altmire (10:52):
You talked about some states that were doing it well. You don't have to name them, but there are some states that are not doing as well, and your report talks about that. But regardless of where you might be as a business, or as a student, or as a school, how can a state better prepare students with the skills they'll need to power their careers in the future?
Tim Taylor (11:15):
Yeah, so this is... Like I mentioned, a lot of the work that we're doing is how to help states embed this. And the natural reaction is to think about it in terms of you have to be in a class that has a name critical thinking or collaboration or character or fortitude to be getting these skills. And really the best way to deliver these skills is completely baked into the subject matter that the kids experience throughout the day. So I'll share a math teacher might, and it doesn't matter whether that math teacher is in fourth grade teaching fractions or 10th grade teaching geometry, a math teacher might say, "Class, I'd like you to get in groups three, and I'm going to give you a set of 10 problems. And I want you to work together, collaborate to solve these problems using multiple different problem solving techniques. And then I'd like you, the group of three of you to go to the front of the class and present your findings to the class."
Tim Taylor (12:08):
Well, now you have these kids in a traditional math class still learning the math that they need to learn, but they're also practicing collaboration, critical thinking, problem solving skills, verbal communication, presentation skills, and they're doing it as part of the day while they're learning math. And I think that that is really important for us to think about, is that... It's sort of like taking a bite of applesauce. You can't not get the vitamins that are in the bite of applesauce while your kids are getting a sweet treat. So this is the way that we're trying to get schools and districts and states to understand how this can be done. And there is a phenomenon going on around the country which is helping this a little bit, which is that a lot of folks are adopting what we call or what they call portraits of a graduate, and this is where the state comes together or a district comes together and decides this is the portrait of what we want somebody to look like when they graduate. Well, many of those portraits currently are a flat Stanley.
Tim Taylor (13:08):
They have not changed anything that happens throughout the course of the day that would make a student look like this portrait. And many of the portraits have durable skills baked into them. In many cases, it's up to six of the durable skills that are outright mentioned in a portrait of a graduate. So the stave has decided that they value these skills, the business leaders have come together and helped create these portraits, and now it's a matter of really changing what happens in a classroom day to day so the students can practice and develop, and ultimately be able to demonstrate these skills.
Jason Altmire (13:41):
You've worked with a number of employers, large and small about this. Who were some of the leaders in the business sector who are helping you pursue this and improve things for employers and for students with durable skills?
Tim Taylor (13:55):
So as a blanket statement, I'll say this. What's interesting is when we... We looked at 80 million job descriptions, and as I mentioned, seven of the top 10. When we talk to employers, they say 10 out of the top 10. And particularly with the advent of a lot of AI jobs and what's happening to jobs with AI, these durable skills are the things that machines can't do. So it's the type of stuff that employers say every day, "These are the skills we need and value the most, right? The stuff we can't teach you. We will teach you the technical skills and a lot..." Now, this isn't for an airline pilot or for an engineer, right? Those are technical skills that we hope they clearly have.
Tim Taylor (14:36):
But for others, this really is the type of stuff that employers want folks to show up with, and then they can work on a lot of the technical skills that go along with that. What we're seeing across the country on a couple of different levels is a move to skill-based hiring where a four year degree is no longer required. So 20 states have now removed a four year degree requirement for many of the state jobs that they have. Well, what Harvard Business School has done is did an analysis and found that when you remove a four year degree from a job description, you tend to put more durable skills into the job description because the four year degree was a proxy for durable skills. Hiring manager, we're looking for that four year degree to say, "Well, you probably have some fortitude and you've probably built up a growth mindset, and there's some type of collaboration or communication or critical thinking that you might've done."
Tim Taylor (15:30):
So when you remove that four year degree, employers are looking for other ways to demonstrate that. And so that's a little bit of wind in our back of employers that are moving to skill-based hiring. IBM, Bank of America are two that are always mentioned as really leading on that front.
Jason Altmire (15:47):
But there are some things that are happening along with the sort of durable skills movement that is making this more powerful in creating opportunities for young people and learners and earners. We talk a lot about the skills gap more generally, both on this podcast and in our work as an association. I guess the last question I would ask you is, how does your work with durable skills coexist with the more generalized idea of the skills gap, the hard skills? When you're talking about four or five to one demand by employer for durable skills, are we... Those who are so focused on the skills gap, are we looking in the wrong place? Should we adapt the way that we're looking at this problem?
Tim Taylor (16:33):
That's a great question. I've started to see some numbers where they're talking about a durable skills gap. And also to put a little finer point on when they ask employers about that skills gap, employers are now starting to talk quite a bit about the durable skills that also have a gap. I think that what we talk about a lot here is that anybody who's ever been hired in the history of history for a job has been hired for a combination of technical skills and durable skills. And I think that what that demonstrates is that that's a whole person. You don't need just one or the other, and there isn't a job out there that really requires solely one or the other, a technical skill or a durable skill. And so thinking about how we develop a whole child, and as schools are starting to think of college and career pathways, and they're giving kids these opportunities around career and technical education and STEM programs and other things while they're in the school, we need to think about how they're learning, reading, writing, math, arithmetic, and durable skills in the classroom at the same time.
Tim Taylor (17:33):
And ultimately, it's going to take starting younger to begin to close that gap on the backend. We wish we would've started doing this work 10 years ago instead of four years ago, but this is where we find ourselves. And I think the one thing that we keep trying to raise to the surface is that we really need business to be vocal about what they need in the workforce so that the school systems can respond, so being very clear about the types of skills and demands that they have. And then organizations like ours and many others who are doing great work around this and other great topics can have more kids better prepared to be successful in a world where the jobs are changing rapidly and the skills and the job descriptions, we have no idea what they're going to look like in five years, but we believe that durable skills are durable for a reason and that they're going to be part and parcel of everybody's job description as we move forward.
Jason Altmire (18:28):
I always close these podcasts by giving the guests an opportunity to say how people can find them, what their website is and so forth. And I am going to ask you that, but when people go to your website, they are going to find something called the durable skills wheel, which I think is a fun little tool that you have on there. So before we talk about how to find your website, talk about when you go there and you see that durable skills wheel, what is that about?
Tim Taylor (18:56):
This is taken on a life of its own. So we created a graphic that demonstrates the 10 durable skills competencies, the ones that we've been talking about today, critical thinking, communication, collaboration, that are in the inner circle of the wheel. Those are the ones, the high level, higher order skills, but those are often the ones that don't show up in job descriptions. Very few people sort of put fortitude in their job description, or... But then there are... Around the outer ring of that are 100 other terms. So for each of the 10 competencies, there are 10 sub competencies or tools, durable skills that employers ask for, and this represents the terms that we ran through those 80 million job descriptions. But what's really fun about this wheel is that we're seeing it when we tour schools and after we give presentations to educators, they're taking this wheel and they're putting it in the classroom. And while they're teaching a lesson, they just turn to the wheel and they can grab any of these terms, any of these skills and start to bake it into their lesson.
Tim Taylor (20:00):
And that is really inspiring and rewarding for us to see that level of engagement and involvement and adoption of the wheel. So we would love for folks to go to the americasucceeds.org website. We also have a durableskills.org website. So two different ways that you can find us on the internet, but go in and take a look at the wheel if there's some way that that can be helpful to you and your work. For employers, we think it's super important. We also have heard from a lot of HR managers who are looking for people to be able to demonstrate these types of skills in interviews or in their resumes or other things. So we just love to see the uptick in folks talking about this, and for us to be able to make sure this reaches more young people, and ultimately that is good for both the individuals and the employers.
Jason Altmire (20:53):
If people wanted to learn more about durable skills or your work as the leader of America Succeeds, how would they find you?
Tim Taylor (21:00):
Check us out at americasucceeds.org or durableskills.org. Both of them will lead you to us. My contact information is there. We'd love to hear from you. We're constantly engaging employers. We'd love your feedback. We have run the durable skills framework by over 800 employers to get their feedback. We would love for that to be thousands of employers who participate and who are giving us feedback and letting us know. It's the only way that while we're working with schools, we can feel really confident that this lines up with the vast majority of employers' needs.
Tim Taylor (21:35):
There are very minor differences between industries that we have heard from, but for the most part, somebody who needs somebody who can assess risk, assessing risk might look different on a factory floor from an accounting office, but ultimately, you don't want that employee to engage in risky behavior, whether it's around machinery or whether it's moving a number from one column to the next. So they really are universal for the most part, and we'd love for companies to continue to engage with us and our work so that we can be out there working with states, working with others, so more young people are prepared for the jobs of the future.
Jason Altmire (22:14):
Our guest today has been Tim Taylor. Tim, thank you for being with us.
Tim Taylor (22:18):
I really appreciate the opportunity to join you today. Thanks so much for the great questions.
Jason Altmire (22:30):
Thanks for joining me for this episode of The Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website at career.org and follow us on Twitter @cecued. That's @C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.