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Seth Baumgartner and Jason Van Leuven open the mics for your crop steering and cultivation questions.
Cian [00:00:04]:
What's up, grummies? Welcome to AROYA Office Hours, your source for free cannabis cultivation education. This is episode 124. I want to give a shout out to all of our live viewers on YouTube and Instagram, to everyone tapping in on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for your support. And if you like the podcast, drop us a review after the show. I'm your guest moderator, Cian Covering for Kaisha this week while she's going to be out, she's going to be assisting some of our other team members at the New York Growers cup this weekend as an official event sponsor. AROYA will be at the networking event on Friday the 13th and cheering on all of the winners at the awards show on Saturday the 14th. So if you're there, come stop by the booth and say hi to our team.
Cian [00:00:45]:
Seth, Jason, you guys ready to jump into some questions?
Jason [00:00:49]:
Let's do it.
Seth [00:00:50]:
Yep.
Cian [00:00:52]:
Awesome. Well, our first question here comes from Trichome Valley and he dropped this on Instagram, says, what is the expectation when you push 20% runoff? What should you see the EC and the PH doing from day to day? Is that 20% runoff supposed to maintain the previous day's EC and should that 20% decrease from the day before? I ask this because when I push 20%, a lot of times the EC still raises, let's say, from 4.2 to 6o the following day.
Jason [00:01:26]:
I mean, yeah, that would kind of be expected. You know, unfortunately, and I think we talked about this a couple weeks ago, maybe a couple months ago, where, you know, 20%. Is that 20% of your substrate or 20% of your feed volume? Right. So your feed volume is 1 milliliter. For the really small side, we would expect 20% to really do nothing. That's almost no runoff at all. Right. But if we fed thousand milliliters, that would be a significant amount of runoff, you know, 200 milliliters.
Jason [00:01:55]:
So, you know, my preference is always talking about in reference to substrate size. And yeah, you know, when we're, we're thinking about in as far as a substrate size. Yeah, 20 milliliters or 20%. Excuse me, would be. Would be quite a bit of runoff as far as, you know, how that affects your substrate. Kind of comes down to what's your feedback. EC is what your feed see in the substrate or excuse me, what your EC in the substrate is. That type of stuff and when your runoff hits.
Jason [00:02:26]:
So, you know, as far as if the numbers you gave us, from where it's climbing to, I probably Wouldn't get too worried.
Seth [00:02:34]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to also go look and see when you're getting that runoff. Does it happen when you actually achieve fuel capacity or is it happening before when you're accounting for that total volume? And just like Jason said, talking about 20% of the total pot versus 20% of the feed volume, which from what you're saying sounds more like 20% of the feed volume, sometimes we'll see EC rise. A lot of that's dependent on the pot size. And then pH should remain pretty stable at a runoff of 20% of the feed volume.
Jason [00:03:04]:
Yeah. And you know, kind of just as rough guidelines, you know, our favorite time to see runoff is at our last P1 event. Um, typically, you know, if we have P1 events that are having to run off before that, we can make those shots a little bit shorter and have more of them to try and get the capillary effect of the substrate to catch up with those shot sizes. Um, Obviously that last P1 is when we want to see the, the runoff going on, pushing, pushing out some of that old nutrient mix. And then for our P2s, if we are running P2s, say we're in a vegetative strategy, typically we, we don't necessarily want to have runoff unless we need to decrease our EC even farther, in which case it's probably the best strategy actually to get a little bit more runoff on your last P1 and still avoid P2 runoff.
Seth [00:03:52]:
Yeah. It's important to remember that as you're adding all this liquid to your substrate, it has to homogenize with the existing liquid in there. And if the velocity at which it's going through the substrate is too quick, it's not going to have time to actually make the changes that you're hoping to make with that runoff. So over time, you know, an easy habit is to just go watch that, you know, second to last and last shot, see if you're getting a runoff there. And then with the P2s, that's actually something that, you know, can be kind of tough to dial in when you start applying the P2s, is checking to see if you are getting runoff in some of your pots. Even if you have sensors, you know, if I have one sensor per 50 plants, that's in a large scale commercial setting, that's pretty good. Um, even at a small scale setting, 1 per 24 is really good. So if we take it down to that level, like I really want to go in there and see if my P2s are accidentally pushing runoff in any of my plants because at that point some of them might start to have a much lower EC than others and it's going to make managing that much more difficult.
Seth [00:04:53]:
Especially, you know, in light of the fact that the only difference is I maybe should wait 2 hours instead of 1 hour to start my P2s to avoid doing that.
Cian [00:05:04]:
Well said, you guys. I think that covered it very well, I think. Let's go into this next one here from Charles Webb. My question is this, this giving multiple irrigation signals to the plant and veg versus giving big or huge drybacks and then completely saturating the pot. Increase or decrease metabolism in the plant?
Jason [00:05:29]:
Um, yeah. So I mean, I guess metabolism is not necessarily really going to be much different. When we think about vegetative or generative type of strategies as far as irrigation goes, you know, really what we're thinking about is when we do have more number of shots, each of those is bringing fresh oxygen, fresh nutrients to the plant and cueing a growth response from the planet plant. Right. So, you know, it's kind of a balance. If we, you know, have too many irrigations, then we don't see much dynamics in that we have too many irrigations. We may not be seeing our EC rise at the times that we want it to. Don't know if I answered that very well.
Seth [00:06:11]:
Yeah, I mean, especially in veg, I think a good way to look at it would be to think about, you know, some, some other crops we see out there, whether it's tomatoes, lettuce, cucumbers, anything. We're looking to actually grow structure in the plant and particularly like leafy greens. You'll see this like lots of vegetative irrigation cues because we're trying to boost growth of that leafy green material. So we're talking about vegging a plant. You know, there's, there's a couple of different approaches for people growing big plants in huge pots. You've got a long veg no matter what. But if we're flipping, you know, 14 to 18 inch plants on a slab, one of our goals in that production system is to get them through veg as quickly as possible to hit that size. And we can take advantage of that small, small veg media to apply a lot of small shots.
Seth [00:06:58]:
And as long as we're able to get, you know, an overdrive overnight dry back and a little bit of dry back between those shots to get that oxygen into the root zone, that's what's going to really drive that growth. As far as overall plant Metabolism, like Jason said it, we may not be increasing it that much, but when we apply those shots to the root zone, we're increasing active transpiration, where the plant's actually putting resources into moving more water through the plant so that it can build more tissue in the daytime. It's not necessarily burning nearly as much energy as it would be at night, especially in the root zone, but that's allowing it to build more sugar to then metabolize over time and build more tissue.
Cian [00:07:42]:
I think that's well said, guys. You know, I was just kind of thinking about that for a second and I think like Jason said, metabolism isn't necessarily the biggest question when you're looking at those things, but you can definitely affect your plants metabolic rates. If you go too far one direction or the other away from that center lane or the green zone as I kind of like to call it when I talk to people, you can deviate. And then once you're outside of some of those set parameters, let's say if you were to start steering a little bit too aggressively in the generative stage, you may end up damaging your plants ability to metabolize at the rate that it needs to, and vice versa. Overwatering and going that other direction can also provide some stress depending on how you do it. However, I would imagine that throughout veg you're going to see a lot less potential for issues with metabolic rates your plants are having if you are able to kind of keep it in that center lane.
Seth [00:08:47]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to bring up when we're talking about veg. Also, plants are cold blooded essentially. They can only metabolize at a rate that the temperature that they are allows them to. So when we're looking at veggie plants and producing like the best, most robust plant possible, temperature and humidity, environmental cues are just as important as irrigation, if not more so. Those plants need it to be, you know, 80 to 82 degrees on that plant surface. So sometimes that can be a challenge to achieve in a particular facility. We want it to be pretty high humidity in general, you know, down in that 0.6 to 0.9 bpd range, which can also be difficult to achieve depending on where you're at and those factors. Oftentimes, you know, unless you're running a very small veg media, those factors can be much more impactful sometimes depending on how you're watering.
Seth [00:09:38]:
If you're dropping a clone into a 1 gallon, for instance, if you can't nail the temps and humidities, those plants aren't going to root in as fast and you're not going to get that dry back as quickly and be able to start irrigating more vegetatively to push that growth.
Cian [00:09:55]:
Sorry guys, my mouse just died on me there for a second. Couldn't figure out why my cursor wasn't moving around. I think that is a great explanation of that and it's a good ad to talk about those temperature zones as well. Let's move on to a little bit of a pivot here we have one from a friend of the show. Mighty Mouse asks us, what's the general limit for calcium chloride throughout the run and what is the effect at the end of the run? If there's toxicity, what do those generally look like? I noticed that Athena runs up to 350ppm in their fade. But if you're switching over to fade slowly a little bit earlier in your round, how would that work and are there associated concerns that I should be looking into?
Seth [00:10:40]:
I'll take this one. Yeah. So the main thing we're looking to do is continue to keep the roughly the same ppm of calcium that we've been running through the cycle, continuing into the ripening period. And that's why we're putting in something like calcium chloride is to replace that calcium nitrate so that we're not giving that vegetative push to the plant from nutrition. So whether you're using calcium chloride, calcium silicate, even Cal Mag, old school, you're trying to match that ppm of calcium so we can still get even uptake of potassium, phosphorus and all the microbes that we're still trying to get into the plant. Calcium is a, at least for plants like cannabis and tomatoes. Those are two of the main ones that people grow that suffer from this calcium uptake. Calcium availability can be highly restrictive to uptake from other nutrients.
Seth [00:11:28]:
So they have an antagonistic relationship where if calcium is in short supply, all the other nutrients are also restricted. So that's kind of the point of moving to these finishing recipes is to be able to control the amount of nitrogen we're giving the plant while, while having all of the other necessary micros remaining completely plant available.
Jason [00:11:49]:
Yeah, and I did, did want to just chime in there. If you are using Cal Mag as a supplement, make sure that you're checking the ingredients on your Cal Mag. Uh, quite a few Cal Mag products on the market also have nitrogen in them. So just, just make sure that you're looking at that and taking into note that it's going to be doing what you want it to be doing as far as depleting the amount of nitrogen you're feeding.
Seth [00:12:14]:
Yeah. And I mean also, if you're running any kind of injection system, Cal Mag is probably not going to be your best friend. Uh, I think that's a big reason we've seen much easier to use solutions like calcium chloride come onto the market because typically at the rates we're running, you're not going to see any issues from calcium toxicity in the plants unless. Or not calcium, sorry, chloride toxicity. Unless you already have, let's say, high levels of chlorine incoming in your tap water. At which point there's some pretty simple solutions to help deal with that. Like having a batch tank that has a high airflow capacity, a lot of mixing or air stones, and having enough time for some of that chlorine to off gas before the solution actually gets dumped on the plants.
Cian [00:12:59]:
All said, I think we can add to this one. I've got a question here from Tim B. Says, any opinions on hydroponic research? Dose A slash B shine stack in a commercial facility. Been using it for over a year in a 500 light facility and it's been a struggle to dial it in for 60% of our strains. The other 40% do not work at all even though they thrive under Athena in a different facility. It seems like it's just not very well balanced. Not trying to hate on a brand, but if other growers have struggled with this in the past, it may be helpful hear any opinions that would sway us one direction or the other on our choice of potentially moving to a better fertilizer input.
Jason [00:13:40]:
I mean, if you're at 60% that are struggling and 40% that don't work, I think it's definitely time to get a different nutrient that however, if it, you know, if you've got another facility that that's doing something different, you know, you can't make apples to apples comparison. Right. There might be actually some type of environmental parameter or you know, lighting capabilities, CO2 injection, some other parameter that's probably causing the issue. It seems like, you know, most of, to generalize, most of the nutrient companies have done a reasonable job of having a decent nutrient on the line on the, on the market these days. You know, I, I personally don't see massive improvements from switching nutrient companies. So I check environmental variables first, you know, try to, try to get those in check with the facility that is doing well, you know, and if you're set on the nutrient thing, try something else for a room or around or Whatever. And I guess that would validate your question.
Seth [00:14:45]:
Yeah, I mean, personally, I've used both of those products in the past. And like, with hydroponic research, they have different product lines to work with different water qualities. So that's. I think, one of the biggest issues I see growers run into when running different types of fertilizer is that mixing can be more or less complicated. It can be more or less difficult. And sometimes incoming water will have elements like calcium, magnesium, iron, all these different things that can either cause interactions or not with the fertilizer you're mixing. But also the ph can highly vary. That's why a lot of growers end up using a lot of filtration in an RO system to be able to really bring the content of that water down.
Seth [00:15:25]:
So you're really controlling what's in it. If you're not doing that, or if your system doesn't work as well at one facility versus the other, or let's say incoming water. PH issues, there might be other challenges besides just what brand nutrient you're using or in order to get effective delivery of the nutrition you're intending to put into solution onto the plants. And that can be a whole other issue where we've got a skid that either isn't designed appropriately or is not designed appropriately for the combination of things that you're trying to put in it and the end result sometimes. And my favorite way to verify this is just taking a cup, going to the dripper and verifying like, hey, is my intended EC reaching the plants? Um, is the intended PH getting there? If either of those two variables are off, why is that? Do I have an injector that's not injecting correctly? Like, is the system broken? Do I have water quality issues with ph that are causing these nutrients to fall out? And at that point, if I put in, you know, by ppm range 1500 3.0, when it's coming out at 1.8, where. Where is the rest of that going? Where is that 700 ppm of nutrients going? So, like, you really gotta take kind of a holistic approach and figure out if it's actually the nutrients, because usually it. As Jason said, most of these companies that are putting out nutrients nowadays, you know, we're. We don't live in a world where you had to go ask to grow your tomatoes with extra calcium or whatever.
Seth [00:16:53]:
Everyone's putting out something that generally can grow decent cannabis plants, but using every. And if you look across several different fertilizer manufacturers, that's why you see Companies like Zunzat, their front row, they've got very good mixing instructions on how to use their product. Different types of salts require different mixing techniques, different times of mixing before you introduce other ingredients, and different rates that they can actually be mixed at under certain conditions. And if you don't have all of those things lined up, the result is inconsistent nutrient delivery to your plants and an expensive process that, you know, you might be able to get some water analyzed and figure out what's falling out. But great, like, sure, all my potassium is falling out. That's awesome. How do I actually solve it? That's kind of the important part of that question. And sometimes it, unfortunately for growers, comes down to treating your water in a more expensive manner than you would like to on the incoming side to be able to accurately or effectively mix up the nutrient solution that you need to get your plants.
Jason [00:17:54]:
Yeah. I mean, and regardless of who you end up using, get. Get a water quality sample, send it out for analysis, and then talk with the staff at that supplier. Most of these suppliers are pretty. They're pretty eager to help you make the best of their product because they want to keep selling it.
Seth [00:18:14]:
Yeah. And oftentimes there's a, you know, some quick tips and tricks that they usually have because they're answering these questions, like, every day with growers all over the country with different water quality issues and different individual issues at each site. And sometimes we got water quality, sometimes it's water temperature. You know, we have clients in places like Southern California, Arizona and stuff, where their municipal water is coming out at, you know, 75, 80 degrees. You know, it's not awesome, but, hey, it solves a lot of problems just to add a chilling solution, to be able to cool their water off before they attempt to inject anything or actually get it on their plants. So there's a lot of solutions out there. And just as Jason said, like, if you're ever having trouble with the nutrient, call the manufacturer. They have people that are actually quite smart about dealing with these issues.
Seth [00:19:01]:
And the quicker you can get effective, specialized resources, usually the quicker you can solve the problem. And then, you know. Yeah. Remember, they're financially incentivized to help you out. Turns out.
Cian [00:19:12]:
Yeah, I was just gonna say, I mean, every time I've run into a situation where I've had trouble mixing nutrients due to either, you know, my own reluctance to read the instructions carefully and slowly, or whether that happens to be a water quality issue that I'm dealing with or something else, you know, if I call the nutrient company that I am currently using. Oftentimes, they have a wonderful breadth of information available for situations just like mine that they've encountered a bunch of times. And I've gotten a lot of really good help doing that from companies like Front Row and from companies all over the spectrum. Like the. Like these guys just said, they're really, well, financially incentivized to help you make the best use of that product and get a lot of, you know, help if you are struggling with it so that they can keep your business. And then, like Seth said, water quality is paramount. So remember to get that water tested so that you can really have a good firm understanding of what's going in your inputs. Um.
Cian [00:20:16]:
Cause there's lots of ways where if you don't know what's going in before you are adding things to it, there may be reactions going on that you aren't fully cognizant of until it's happened already.
Seth [00:20:28]:
Yeah, great, Great example. Seeing is right around here, we've got, you know, sometimes close to APH coming in and, you know, 0.8 EC of calcium, like, which is awesome. I'll take that calcium. Yeah, all day. But that high ph means, like, I've got to ph my water down before even attempting to inject or mix any salts into it if I want to get, you know, consistent delivery without a bunch of nasty concretions forming in my pipes.
Cian [00:20:56]:
Well said. I think I've got another little connected question in here. Sure. I didn't ask this one yet. So Tony C. From YouTube has asked us. I've noticed cannabis has a hard time absorbing calcium nitrate, but the plants seem to love calcium carbonate. Why do plants struggle a little bit when giving calcium nitrate in these solutions?
Seth [00:21:18]:
Hmm, that's a good question. Typically we see calcium nitrate as, you know, being the easiest form of nitrogen to actually get into the plants. That being said, consistent, consistent nutrition delivery and making sure that calcium is actually bioavailable can be challenging sometimes. And that's part of why we're, you know, typically giving these plants an excess of calcium because they don't always have the most efficient uptake. And one thing we see through tissue analysis on different plants is depending on, you know, certain environmental factors like humidity, temperature, how well that plant's actually thriving. Certain plants also struggle with that. You know, a lot of. A lot of these strains, like some of the candies and stuff that we see that are, you know, traditionally considered finicky, one of their genetic traits is they actually do struggle to update uptake calcium, period.
Seth [00:22:08]:
And that's why we have to supplement that so much. And with certain plants, if it's actually really, really difficult to uptake that, it can be a limiting factor in growth on that particular strain, pretty much no matter what you do. And there's probably a form of supplementation that might overcome this. But that's where we're starting to hit an economic threshold where, hey, is it possible to actually boost this enough with this expensive process or a chemical to achieve a result that's profitable? And that's why we see some strains that just can't really make it in the market. They can't take the inputs and they're generally unstable. And that's where typically we would be selecting things that are easy to grow and approaching it that way in agriculture rather than going too deep on a solution that's not necessarily going to solve the problem. But as far as calcium carbonate, calcium carbonate is very bioavailable. Old school seashells also helps regulate PH in the media.
Seth [00:23:12]:
If you've supplemented calcium carbonate into your cocoa, for instance, you have a natural buffer there that's going to help keep that ph in a very specific range. If we've got, for instance, a small median, we're feeding a lot of calcium nitrates towards the end of the day as that water content is getting really low in the media. We've also had a long period of time with hydrogen off gassing that's driving that ph potentially up, or heavy feeding that's driving that PH down. And now we're seeing a percentage of every single day where the PH in the media is outside of an acceptable range that the plant can actually thrive and uptake nutrients in. The only problem is because we don't have a super reliable in media PH sensor, it's very difficult to actually be aware of that because let's say you've dried a plant back 30% VWC. Now we're going to replace 30% of that volume with feed water. If we were only going up to 50% VWC or 60 at capacity, we've effectively replaced half or more of the water content in that media. So when we get our runoff test, it might look pretty good on the ph, but in reality we've spent a good amount of the day outside of the ph range that the plant can actually uptake nutrients effectively.
Cian [00:24:29]:
I think that was a great explanation of this topic. Let's move on to a little bit of a different subject here. Thank you for that comment, Tony. So we've got a couple of questions about the differences you're going to see in Rockwell and Cocoa in the chats today. This one from Bangxiety comes in and says, does Rockwell require less runoff than Cocoa? In a generalization, and if so, why.
Jason [00:25:00]:
Not necessarily so? If, I mean, if the stars align, all conditions are right, our nutrient balance stays right. Neither of them actually need runoff. Right. Other than making sure that we've got a clean wash through at the beginning of the substrate's usage. Um, you know, that being said, we're pushing runoff in order to help stabilize and balance some of the conditions that end up out of the ranges that we prefer. Both of them you can benefit from having runoff. Both of them, you don't require runoff.
Seth [00:25:31]:
Yeah, generally speaking, just depends on that prep. Right. Like with Brockwool or Stonewall products, we've got a wedding agent in there that has been shown to be a point of inconsistency in manufacturing. Not super inconsistent, but every once in a while there's been batches that go out that result in either a high or low ph. And at that point, it takes quite a bit of flushing with nutrient solution to actually get that out and stabilize it. And that's where we'll see like, hey, plant it into a slab. Looks like my runoff said, you know, 4.7 or something. And then we see that, like, hey, a week and a half later it stabilized after we have actually put enough volume of water on that block over time to do that.
Seth [00:26:07]:
And similar things can happen with cocoa. If it comes in loaded with sodium or any other salts that's like, let's say a 1.0 plus EC sometimes we'll see a low PH effect or a high PH effect. And realistically, whichever media you're using, it's important to check that and be aware of the conditions you're planting into or potentially planting into. And right now have the opportunity to flush out and correct with nutrient solution that media to get stable, stable conditions before you plant. Because both media, the idea, the whole reason why they're we're using them not only in cannabis growing, but just general horticultural production, is that they are relatively inert chemically. So rock wool, very, very inert. Coconut Coir, also very, very inert, except for the fact that it does need to be washed because of the conditions it's growing in. Once that's done, it's also very chemically inertia, you know, almost zero cation exchange capacity, which is the whole reason we're not just scooping dirt out of a field and throwing into a pot and using it.
Seth [00:27:08]:
If we're trying to regulate hydroponic nutrition through a soil that had like a high clay or silt content and held onto nutrients really well, then we wouldn't be able to manage our fertilizer levels and ph nearly as much as we can in a controlled pot with zero nutrient holding capability. We're just relying on the water that's actually in that potential and what we input into that water to control plant nutrition. So as far as differences go, one requires more sweeping, that's the way I like to put it, a little more scrubbing. But it all depends on the application. You know, we've kind of talked ad nauseam on this show about how overdried rock wool can give you bad results, whereas cocoa, if you have an overdrive event, you can potentially recover from much easier. So I think the important thing for growers to look at is what are some of the attributes that are important for your grow? You know, we definitely work with customers who are trying to have the cleanest pathogen mold testing possible. So they're, you know, one of their limits for success is super low CFUs. Well, in those particular cases it's usually easier for them to keep a room very, very clean if they're running Rockwool because they don't have the sediment from the, from the well, anything running all over the tables that they then have to meticulously scrub and can be a buildup for things like biofilm and algae.
Seth [00:28:34]:
On the flip side, if we've got someone running a, you know, medium to large facility or just in general, you know, we were talking about fertilizer earlier. If they're having issues with, you know, nutrient delivery that's resulting in plugged emitters or anything like that. It's a lot easier to get through a run when you're having mechanical difficulty, difficulties with cocoa, because if you overdry the cocoa, you can still bring it back up to field capacity. If we overdry the Rockwool a lot of times that's just really killing the yield on that run because now we've lost, you know, up to half of the water holding capacity of the Rockwool in just a few days of over drying.
Cian [00:29:14]:
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, a lot of the conventional advice you hear from people surrounding Rockwool tends to be that if you over dry it, you're going to lose that matrix potential and you're going to lose your ability to have a little bit of that water holding capacity in the substrate as that happens. And I think that the advice we get comes largely from that Concept. Right. Don't over or don't underwater your Rockwell because otherwise you're going to be losing that water holding capacity. And so I don't think that that necessarily always equates to more runoff, but it does mean that you have kind of like Seth is alluding to some thr folds there that you can't go outside of.
Seth [00:29:57]:
Yeah, I would like to highlight something too because one thing we do talk to growers a lot about is like, you know, what about the algae on my rock wool and why don't I see that on cocoa that algae comes from lack of sanitation in the facility. Not and not saying overall, but there's clearly a point that has the possibility and point of infection to grow that algae. And oftentimes that's in irrigation systems, you know, not, not using black or gray piping in the walls or in the hallways. I mean plants getting water that has had light on it, you know, clear reservoir, transparent reservoirs in the hallway, things like that, where it's actually growing. And even if you see just see that in Rockwool, it's still kind of happening in your cocoa. So just because you made the switch from Rockwool to cocoa doesn't mean you do not need to solve some potential point of infection issues in your irrigation system that's dumping that contaminated water into the pot, allowing that to grow. Because I've seen plenty of facilities turn it around to where a little irrigation overhaul and sanitation update and no more algae on the Rockwell blocks.
Jason [00:31:08]:
Yeah. And you know, another reason that, you know, we don't necessarily see it as often in cocoa is that Rockwell has a little bit higher hydraulic conductivity. So meaning that you know, at the drippers in cocoa it will stay a little bit moist. But typically, you know, we get, you know, top quarter inch inch of cocoa is pretty much drier than immediately when we're irrigating. So it's because the capillary effect of cocoa is not quite as good as Rockwool. Those Rockwell fibers are much smaller in general and they're, you know, tied together. They're, they're woven when that Rockwool is blown. And so you know, you're going to always have a little bit of moisture up at top because the hydraulic conductivity is keeping a little bit more humid and moist up on top of the blocks.
Cian [00:31:58]:
Awesome. I wanted to touch back on that question we had from Mighty Mouse about the effects of calcium chloride throughout the run and the potential effects of toxicity there. He asked us as a follow up, so what in your guys opinion Is a potential. A potentially toxic level of chloride. And how's that going to affect your plants?
Seth [00:32:22]:
Uh, what you'll typically see as far as in a. A toxic level, you should never see that if you're just simply replacing the ppm of calcium, um, in using things like chlorine dioxide. If we've gone up above man, just a couple ppm, we start to see some toxicity. That like 3 to 10 is a pretty sweet spot there. That being said, that's a totally different compound that's much more reactive than calcium chloride. As far as toxicity, we're looking at that interveinal chlorosis. Just spotting looks like magnesium deficiency a little bit. Some classic toxicity.
Seth [00:33:00]:
You might have seen something similar. If you've ever really bleached out a clone tray and left liquid bleach in there, then plopped it on some clones and seen yellowing leaves and spots, but not whole plant death. Again, typically you're not going to see this in any kind of root application that you would reasonably be doing for plant nutrition. If you're seeing effects from. Not necessarily from, but they're coinciding with that switch from a calcium nitrate base to a fade base or calcium chloride. The first thing to do is go check your ph. There's a good chance that there's two very prominent places I see ph crashes. One is at the end of or just after stretch, we have a plant that's been feeding very aggressively.
Seth [00:33:44]:
We're trying to stack that EC up and it's drifted the ph down. The second can be towards the end of bulking, actually, where we've kind of done the same thing. Let's say we were running almost enough runoff, maybe not enough. Maybe at some plants that are feeding a lot. But then we take the calcium nitrate out and suddenly the plant gets a little bit of a ph crash right there. It's the. Those symptoms are generally, again, if you're feeding at that recommended level, not going to be present. Not something I've ever had an issue with.
Jason [00:34:16]:
Yeah. And you know, I say this so many times because if you are concerned that you're having an issue with the specific nutrients and in for leaf tissue analysis, I mean, that's going to immediately identify whether your chlorine levels are too high in the plant tissue itself. Right. And that's where it matters. And if it is, then, you know, switch out for another source of. Of calcium. Which reason a lot of us use calcium chloride is because it's kind of the cheapest form of getting calcium in there other than our Calcium nitrate.
Seth [00:34:49]:
Yeah. And stop. Stop using city water. Might have to treat it a little bit. That is. That is one thing that's actually really prevalent in municipal water systems is, you know, the injection of chlorine. So if you've got a direct incoming line that, hey, is going right through a dosatron, let's say, directly into your room, you could already have a much higher level of chlorine than you would anticipate. And over time, that's where it's going to manifest as higher chlorine levels in the plant tissue.
Cian [00:35:23]:
That's well said. I've had quite a few runarounds trying to dial in the chlorine issues that I was having early on in my facility as well, just because of the high levels of chlorine in my city water, just that exact situation. And I mean, you know, it took a good while for me to accept the fact that that is, in fact, where that chlorine was coming from. And as soon as we had a little bit better filtration in place, what do you know, that spotting is gone.
Seth [00:35:51]:
Yeah. And there's. There's simple solutions. I personally had success with just holding incoming city water in a tank with an airstone for 24 hours. Tested after 24 hours. Usually enough chlorine is gassed off that. It's not an issue. So it's definitely one that's pretty easy to overcome mechanically and not have to treat with additional chemicals.
Jason [00:36:10]:
Yeah. And, you know, even if you want the answer, like now, you don't want to wait for your water test to come out. You can go to the store and get a pool test kit or a water quality test kit, those cheap little strips. You know, I probably got like 200 of them for 10 bucks, 5 bucks. And I use them all the time to test my well.
Seth [00:36:30]:
Yeah. And don't anticipate or don't underestimate how much chlorine water treatment plants will actually dump in, because that's one of their. As far as, when it comes to our own health, least risky, most effective sanitizers that they can use to treat massive amounts of water that they're trying to bring through their system and deliver to people that. And make it actually potable. You know, for reference, bleach has been used to create drinking water for quite a long time, and very few people have died or if any, from the correct application of it.
Cian [00:37:08]:
I think we covered that one pretty well for Mighty Mouse. Let's jump into another different subject down here. We have you guys. So this one's From IG hands down. And you, what do you guys think about not irrigating to full saturation every day and keeping it at a steady moisture content? A few % fluctuation, roughly 10 to 20% drier than when it was at full saturation.
Jason [00:37:39]:
I mean, you can. As long as we're still getting good dry backs and you don't need to push runoff in order to adjust your eclipse. Yeah, it's, it's fine. And sometimes we'll see this in a little bit larger substrates where people are trying to avoid root stagnation just because, you know, they don't see either if too large a media or they don't have the transpiration rates in order to fluctuate their water content enough to end up adjusting their ECs based on that.
Seth [00:38:06]:
That's. As I say, it sounds a lot more like growing in a raised bed or in ground situation where we're not necessarily reliant on runoff to maintain some of those optimum nutrition and ph levels. And it is entirely possible pushing runoff is probably the easiest way to regulate your EC and ph. Um, if we're looking at a no runoff solution, typically that's when we get a little deeper into soil science and soil nutrition science, where we're looking at using things like buffers, calcium carbonate, gypsum, there's a handful of others that we can use to help buffer that ph in the soil while in the media as we're trying to not push a lot of runoff. Entirely possible, but it also depends on your situation. If there's a reason you have to do that. For instance, you're limited on not being able to dump your runoff anywhere. That's when we'd look at, okay, probably getting some calcium carbonate into the, into the cocoa mix before you plant into it, and possibly some other amendments.
Seth [00:39:08]:
You know, back in the day when it was just the forums ten years ago, I was putting all kinds of fun little minerals in my cocoa. Um, one thing they did seem to do, especially the calcium carbonate and the gypsum, was stabilize that ph so that I could use tap water and not have to amend it that much, because at the time I wasn't necessarily paying attention to that as much. Um, but going back to basics, if you're doing it for nothing other than an experiment, go ahead and try it. And just probably be conscious that because you're putting in a salt fertilizer, and we know that typically that's going to cause ph to drift down in the media over time, you might be running a risk going with you know, a consistent water water percentage and very little to no runoff. And the other. Look at that too. You know, if we look at, let's say trying to put P2s on to going to a bulking irrigation pattern, we do want to see a little bit of dry back. There is a reason we're putting let's say 12 shots on a plant throughout the day and not just leaving the water on at an extremely low flow, like 0.1 gallon per hour or something like that.
Seth [00:40:18]:
That low flow doesn't actually allow oxygen to get sucked out into the root zone and drive a lot of that active transpiration that we're looking to drive.
Jason [00:40:28]:
Yeah. And I was, I was going to mention that as well as, you know, if you are doing that, it'd be best to either do a little bit longer shots or have a little bit larger flow rate on your emitters. Because when we think of, hey, we'll get the WIP boards out today.
Seth [00:40:41]:
Yeah.
Jason [00:40:42]:
When I think of. And this is especially true for. Not necessarily as true for any meshed bagged cocoa products, but for any, any poly sided. We're going to use a Hugo for our example here. So, you know, when we. I'm gonna draw 3D. We'll see. Let's get a lot of stuff for this one.
Seth [00:41:06]:
You're ambitious today.
Jason [00:41:08]:
Yeah, buddy.
Seth [00:41:09]:
There you go.
Jason [00:41:09]:
It's just like a little trapping present. Yeah. So obviously we got our plant out here. When we are getting run off. You know, one of the things that's happening here is it's actually creating a little bit of a vacuum and pulling not just the oxygen that's in the fertigation solution, but it's actually pulling it just right from the top of the block down into the substrate. And so that's, you know, that's one of the reasons that we kind of want to think about this like as a water column in this example. And so as it's moving down, you know, after we've got a layer that's, you know, fully saturated, for example 1, its capillary effect is pulling it to the edges of the substrate. And as well it's kind of building that vacuum behind it.
Jason [00:41:56]:
Right. And so if we are trying to keep this had a fairly steady water content, you know, we'd be constantly dripping. And we may not build that, that layer of moving water through the substrate unless we do a little bit longer shot or we have a little bit faster flow rate. Yeah.
Seth [00:42:16]:
I mean effectively that straw is just going to suck water through with no air. And we Actually want a little bit of cavitation to come through the top of the block. That's part of the whole goal here, is to get that oxygen down in the block and make sure we're not promoting any anaerobic root conditions because the roots actually do need oxygen, quite a lot of it.
Cian [00:42:36]:
Yeah, that's what I was going to add. Just, you know, you walk a fine line sometimes when you keep it that wet all the time. You definitely need that oxygen to be able to get down to your root system. Otherwise I kind of think of it like you're suffocating your roots when you don't allow more of that oxygen to come in behind the shot. Move on to one real quick from our friends at Rocket Buds Farms in Croatia. They're listening live while they defoliate today and they ask, what are your thoughts on a 50% dryback strategy from the start to the end of the run all the way through?
Seth [00:43:14]:
So I guess that that probably is referring to saturation. Typically we're talking about VWC. If we're looking at removing 50% of that water capacity, you know, and the scale we're typically speaking on, we'd say like if we had a field capacity of 50, 50% VWC, the 50% dryback would mean going down to 25% VWC on the scale you're going to see on your sensors. And that's a great strategy. You know, there's a basic form of it. A lot, a lot of people who have grown in different size media, for instance, have probably done exactly that. Growing in like a three to a five gallon pot, you build that dry back up over time as the plant gets bigger. But oftentimes you hit a point where you're drying back about half the moisture content in that bigger pot per day and replacing it.
Seth [00:44:03]:
The challenge probably comes when you want to start actually employing more irrigation strategy than just the percent of dry back. And that's, you know, that dryback percentage, as we've said a bunch of times on this show, is always going to be a reflection of like what you're plant size or really your leaf surface area is compared to how big the pot is or how big that reservoir of water that the plant has access to. So if we're it, a lot of that depends on the pot size as well. You know, if we're Talking about a one gallon pot, that volume of water, that 50% of saturation is going to be a much smaller volume than let's say a five gallon pot, you know, the 50% of that's going to be two and a half times the whole volume of the one gallon pot. So the same size plants not going to achieve nearly as big of a dry boat in that. And the focus that we always put on it is, hey, you know that that dryback percentage is good. We want to see at least 10% in pretty much every situation you can think of. And if we can't get a 10% dry back in 24 hours, then we're looking at probably either an inappropriate media size or media itself when we're talking about running that big of a dry back.
Seth [00:45:16]:
The question is, can you run generatively at the end of your cycle to try to ripen those plants without pushing more than that 25, 30 in VWC or 50% in saturation model. And if not, that's probably a sign to start upping your media size without changing out anything else. That way you can actually push some of these more delicate and finicky strains into finishing inside of a time cycle where you'd like to harvest them. So Jason's got some a fun little explanation here, saturation versus vwc and why there's a difference in the scale. And also I think one thing we should maybe bring up is when you can use either of these in a more effective way. Saturation is a great way of explaining to someone how much of a dryback you want if the technological limit of where, of literally what's right in front of them, where they're standing is picking up a pot. A lot of us can, you know, roughly guesstimate where the difference between 50 and 100% of weight is. Especially if we're talking about something like a two to three gallon pod.
Seth [00:46:26]:
It's pretty tangible. VWC is something that is very difficult to tune in by weight feel without a sensor to help guide you in what, what exact kind of weight you're looking for based on the media that you're holding. Because if I have a two gallon pot versus a one gallon pot, those are going to be two different weights that I've got to try to tune my, my hands and my touch sense into sensing very intimately. And it's going to take a lot of practice with the scale to understand the difference.
Jason [00:46:57]:
Yeah, I wrote this down and it's probably just going to make a little bit more confusing, but started off with, you know, talking about, all right, with in a 50%. The reason that he kind of just made the assumption that it is, you know, that based on saturation. Saturation meaning, all right, when I hit Field capacity, you know, that's 100%, right? 100% water holding capacity of the capacity that it's like the relative of water content, I guess, if, if, if you will. You know, most of the time when we're working with sensors, you know, at least in our system we're looking at volumetric water content. And so in a one gallon substrate, for example, you know, if we're looking at saturation, 100% saturation would actually be 60% or 45 to 60% for most Cocos in a volumetric sense. And that is because the rest of this percentage is material and non saturated pore space. So this is things that, you know, can't hold in water. So when we're talking about field capacity, this is about the time that we start to see no longer or no more water being able to be absorbed into that substrate.
Jason [00:48:07]:
For most Cocos it's going to be around 45 to 60% depending on the pith and chip rate. And something like Rockwool, typically we see that closer up to 70, 75%. And it can also vary on the type of Rockwool you have. That's why there's Hugos and Pargos and all of it. So hopefully that actually clarified it.
Cian [00:48:30]:
I'm glad you made the chart, Jason, because I wanted to touch on that when the question came up. It's one of those things we hear all the time when people call in or even when you're just talking to somebody about things, they'll describe it a percentage. And you have to make sure that you and the other person are talking about percentage in the same conceptual value. Because just like what Jason said, if you're looking at things through a lens of that saturation per se percentage value, and you talk to another person that is steering their plants strictly by a volumetric water content understanding, you both are going to say the word percent and it's going to mean something very different to each one of you. And it's really important that you clarify which one of those scales you're operating on. Because like Jason alluded to, if you were to do a 50% dry back, let's think of that as just percent of the volumetric water content and or sorry, percent of your total pot size, which is what our volumetric water content reading is, you're basically going down, let's say if you were at 60 to 10%, which I think all of us can tell you here, that a dead plant will make.
Seth [00:49:46]:
Yeah, I've definitely talked to more than a few growers who have been led astray by that. Because I think we're keep making this joke that it seems to be like a lot of cannabis growers are fishermen and everyone likes to make things big. But I think seeing you can comment because you've been running over the years quite a variety of different media and different configurations and without having a very consistent scale in our case here, the actual sensors that plug into the block, it's pretty hard to actually go pick up pots with that. I mean it takes a while to, at least for me to fine tune, you know, my, my feel, my pickup feel like if I switch from a one to a two gallon and I switched brands and chop, like I better have a sensor otherwise it's going to take me a hot minute to dial in. What is, what is field capacity? What does that feel like on average versus what's 50% like it without a tool?
Cian [00:50:41]:
Absolutely, yeah. It's nearly impossible. I remember I switched around where I went From Slabs and Hugo's 2. I did a hand packed 3 gallon pot mix the next round and without having sensors in those pots, I would just have been entirely blind to exactly what I was doing with that three gallon substrate that's been hand packed with perlite and a little bit higher water holding capacity cocoa, just a very different medium. And having a sensor in there allowed me to understand not only is there a huge difference in terms of what my physical perception of the weight of that plant is versus its volumetric water content and what that means, but there's a big difference in the scale of that substrate and what it's going to read versus what my Slabs or Hugos were going to read.
Seth [00:51:39]:
Oh absolutely. In a three gallon pot, even at the 70 to 30 mix, I mean water's 8 pounds gallon, pick up a pot that weighs maybe 12 to 15 pounds versus your little one gallon pot that you might agree grown in before or after and it's like, oh, this one, this one, yeah, it only ever is a few pounds and that's visually not a, not a huge difference, you know, I mean, yeah, it's three times the size. We're talking about something this big versus something this big. It's, it's, it's tough to dial that in and keep up, up with it. And that's why I think, you know, you talk to a lot of growers out there that, you know, they, they get into a system, whether it's a one gallon, a two gallon pot, a one or two gallon compressed brick by a certain brand, they'll dial into like, hey, this is the absolute formula for my success. And part of that's just because they've run it so many times, their feel sense for it is actually pretty good. But unfortunately that's, in my opinion, compared to getting yourself access to the best tools you can. Learning by trial and error on something like feeling how heavy a pot is, can be in a very expensive process.
Seth [00:52:44]:
At least that was, that was my experience with it. Expensive, time consuming, and hard to teach someone else when you're trying to scale your grow and, you know, increase other help. I mean, it's, I think there's so many things we talk about on here that just by being able to put a number on it, you can show someone else and like, click, not, you know, come hang out with me for a week and let's, let's go pick up pots together. Well, while the bonding time may be nice.
Cian [00:53:12]:
Exactly. It's one of those things where you end up trying to hit a moving target when you're using only your own feel and perception to guide those decisions. And while I do see people have a lot of success, like Seth said, once they dial into a specific medium or once they feel like they've got a really good sense for that within the facilities that they visit, the big advantage of being able to have these sensors in your substrate is just to be able to add a number to what that sensation is and be able to start understanding what these feelings that you've traditionally steered your decisions with mean numerically. Because you're probably not necessarily wrong when you steer by feel and say, this plant, this row has dried back enough to be able to be irrigated again at this point in time in my day, however, if you're able to pair that with numbers and numerical values and you can make a repeatable process, then it doesn't necessarily have to be you there every day. That is steering that process and making sure that it happens correctly. You're able to give someone numbers that allow them, you know, repetition and a system that they can count on.
Jason [00:54:27]:
Yeah. Remember, you know, you're not just picking up pots, you're also picking up the plant. So as that plant gets heavier, you're going to have to mentally or physically or something kind of just adjust along the way in respects to, you know, hopefully you're growing a huge plant pretty good.
Seth [00:54:46]:
Yeah. And then just, you know, personnel differences. There's many, like, if we're talking about like, let's say, seeing a three gallon pot, I've certainly been in situations where I'm looking at the person next to me that's, you know, maybe 40 or 50 pounds lighter. And like, they. I don't think they can pack it as hard. I don't think it's possible, you know, and the same would go with picking up plants. If we've got some bigger pots and one person, in their opinion, it's heavy, and in my opinion, it's not. Well, that's a.
Seth [00:55:12]:
That's a communication barrier that's going to be hard to get through. For sure.
Jason [00:55:16]:
Yeah, I think they're all light.
Seth [00:55:17]:
Yeah. Yeah, you're swole like Jason. They're just ripping them off those benches, breaking branches left and right.
Cian [00:55:24]:
No, but you make a great point, though. I mean, I'll walk in sometimes and my perception is that everything in the room is lighter than it should be. And then I'll look at the numbers and I'm like, oh, yeah, my sense of feel is off today. And just another one of those moments where I would so much rather be trusting those numerical values and the consistency that they provide me versus leaning into myself and trying to be like, oh, no, I know what I'm doing. This is exactly what I should be doing, and not backing that up with something that I can look at and say, no, this is exactly what I should be doing. All right, well, I think it's probably time to start wrapping up here, but let's do one more before we get out of here. I have one here that's a little bit of a different subject than we've been covering today. It feels like we've been mostly on an irrigation kick, but I have one here from a son who is looking for a little bit of guidance on what his perfect leaf temp and humidity for his veg stage and flowering stages should be.
Seth [00:56:29]:
Perfect leaf temp in veg. We're looking for 80 to 82. Same for stretch. First three, three to four weeks of flower. Then after that, we're looking for about a 78 to 80 degree leaf temp and 75 degrees overnight during bulking, and goal of 77 or so in the daytime, 65 overnight for ripening. How you. How you get there is a whole other story. Buy a good thermometer, get out there and take some readings, you know, throughout the day, throughout the night to really dial in what's going on.
Seth [00:57:03]:
You know, we've talked a lot about dehumidifier efficiency and how difficult some of those values to achieve can be.
Jason [00:57:12]:
Yeah, these are just starting points. You know, there's so many variables that come into play Here, you know, if you're trying to ripen your product fast, get more anti the cyan in out of it, what strains actually prefer, what lighting type you have, and there are lots of them. So just, you know, keep in mind if you're using that, take notes, see how that that performs. If you have a goof up, make sure that you document it so that if it's worse or better, you know what happened to cause that.
Seth [00:57:43]:
Yeah. And I mean my recommendation to people is really like, when you're trying to dial this in, go take a lot more temperature readings all over your rooms than you think you might like. You might find in front of one fan, your plants are like 8 degrees colder than ambient room temp. Like, okay, do you have a better way to spread out that air, a better way to homogenize the room? And that is, I think, one of the fun things about especially certain scales of growing. You know, we've got a product that is reasonably profitable enough, we can approach this style of farming from a high input end. And one thing I really do find fun about working with a lot of growers is a lot of them have gone through a process where they're all fighting the same battles and depending on their building and equipment they have available to them, they're finding different solutions or similar solutions to a lot of these problems. Whether it's how do you provide proper prompts, pumping pressure and zone out their irrigation, or how to stuff enough dehu capacity into a room while maintaining an even environment and even extending that to, okay, do we have to get some of this H vac equipment out of the room and duct it in? How do we position all of our vents and fans? You know, are we looking at a smaller room where we can kind of get a circular airflow going? Do we have a 5,000 square foot room where that's with a low ceiling, where that's actually impossible and we've got to have like all of these small units scattered around and try to balance them with not blocking out too much space for light while working around pillars. And at the end of the day, most of these buildings and facilities we're growing in weren't purpose built for this in mind or even if they were, a lot of them were old enough where we weren't designing on principles that we thought we could push quite as far as a lot of cannabis growers have.
Seth [00:59:32]:
So mapping that out and really understanding, you know, what is going on in the environment and how, I don't want to say bad, but how significant your Microclimates are, is very important because some things like, and I've seen in your room over the years, like just reconfiguring which way your de hus point or adding a duck sock. Sometimes there's like small solutions that make a crazy huge difference compared to like, oh, hey, my DE used to blow 95 degree air onto one end of a bench and like almost kill nine plants every time I ran.
Jason [01:00:05]:
Yeah. And this actually reminded me of a really fun activity that we did kind of a study actually at a client's facility where we had, I believe we had 12 temperature sensors in this room, equally spaced out. And we actually, we took that data and built this time series. We mapped it for 24 hours. Um, I was actually looking for the video, but I didn't, I didn't see it real quick. So this is just a great example of why we want to take those measurements across the room. And even better if we can take them across the room over some time because ironically we were able to identify exactly where H vac vents. And over time because we could see when it was turning on, like we just had these little strobe areas.
Seth [01:00:52]:
Yeah. And vents register is exhaust. Yeah, you can see the heat map.
Jason [01:00:56]:
Yeah. And you know, you sure you could spend time in this and you're like, oh, well this, you know, this is the cold corner or whatever. But this is actually giving you a quantitative on how cold it was. Right. And you know, maybe an application in this room would have two climate stations that we, you know, we'd expect them to read slightly different, but this kind of, you know, gives us an idea of how much, how much volume or how much zone is being affected by those differences.
Seth [01:01:24]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Cian [01:01:25]:
Figure out why too?
Seth [01:01:27]:
Well, yeah, like on this particular image, we can see that dense heat zone in the upper. Right there.
Jason [01:01:33]:
That's cool.
Seth [01:01:34]:
Oh, cool. Sorry.
Jason [01:01:35]:
Brighter yellow is hotter.
Seth [01:01:36]:
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So is that AC dumping in right there? You know, we can identify that. Okay. As a solution to duct it out in the room. Do we, we just need to blow it in a different direction, like manifold it? Yeah, but without the data, like you're kind of just looking for things to stick and putting in the extra effort up front is usually a lot cheaper than building something that doesn't work and then rebuilding it and rebuilding it. And you know, there's a certain amount of that in almost any commercial or mid size or even small grow at this point.
Seth [01:02:11]:
You're always trying to improve on what you're doing, but. But the more times you do it. I think the more most of us realize there's a lot of benefit to be gained by putting in the research effort before marking all your data points and trying to make like if it's your third time rebuilding the H vac in this room, put in the effort to nail it. Like technology is not progressing so fast that in two years you're going to get a system that just makes everything better with one unit up in the corner.
Cian [01:02:41]:
Well said. Well, I think we probably ought to wrap it up for the day. Thank you, Seth. Thank you, Jason. And thank our producer Chris for another great session. And thank all of you for joining us today for this week's AROYA Office hours. To learn more about AROYA, book a demo at Aroya IO and our team will show you the ins and outs of the ultimate cannabis cultivation platform. Got crop steering or cultivation questions that you want us to cover in the show? Drop them anytime in the Arroya app.
Cian [01:03:08]:
Email us@salesaroyaio or send us a DM via Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you and answer your questions live. And if you're a fan of the pod, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We appreciate your feedback and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you never miss an episode. Thanks. You all see us at episode 125.