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Dr. Pam Kastner is one of the most generous teachers in the field of reading, sharing her unparalleled collections of resources, hosting learning events, and serving as a literacy leader in her state of Pennsylvania and nationally. She is a true “teacher’s teacher,” believing in and providing multiple points of entry to teachers in their professional learning.
In this podcast episode, Pam discusses ways to support our collective efficacy. She also unpacks the idea that sometimes behavior can persuade belief. Pam’s thoughts and words will touch a chord, as she imparts some great words of wisdom: Be kind, celebrate wins along the way, and keep all of our work anchored to kids. We are helping them become the person they are meant to be.
Pam considers herself a “literacy warrior.” She is indeed.
Teaching, Reading & Learning: The Podcast elevates important contributions to the educational community, with the goal of inspiring teachers, informing practice, and celebrating people in the community who have influenced teaching and literacy to the betterment of children. The podcast features guests whose life stories are compelling and rich in ways that are instructive to us all. The podcast focuses on literacy as we know it (reading and writing) but will also connect to other “literacies” that impact children’s learning; for example, emotional, physical, and social literacies as they apply to teachers and children.
[00:00:00.730] - Speaker 1
Today's sponsor is Reading Horizons, developers of a foundational K Three reading program that focuses on decoding and encoding using skills, the critical components of structured literacy. Tier One Reading Horizons programs deliver proven, supplemental core literacy instruction based on the science of reading and put the Reading Horizons Podcast named Podcast on your mustwatch must listen list and take a deep dive into learning focused topics such as structured literacy, socially emotional learning, dyslexia, and edtech with host Laura Xtell, an educator and trainer with over 26 years of experience in instructional and administrative settings. The next season of Podcast begins Wednesday, June 16, and be sure to listen to past episodes anytime on Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, and most podcasting platforms. Visit Readinghorizons.com Podcast to learn more.
[00:01:19.150] - Speaker 2
Hi everyone, and welcome to Teaching, Reading, and Learning the TRL Podcast. I'm Laura Stewart from The Reading League. The focus of this podcast is to elevate important conversations in the educational community, to inspire and inform and celebrate contributions to teaching and learning. Today, our guest really epitomizes a mission driven focused to her work, and that is Dr. Pam Castner. I have had the privilege of getting to know Pam since I came on with The Reading League. She's the President of The Reading League Pennsylvania, and I would characterize Pam as a passionate and dynamic leader. So if you're not familiar with Pam, I'll read her bio to you right now. Pam Castner is an educational consultant at the Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance Network, or Patent. She serves as a state lead consultant for literacy, and she currently coleads Pennsylvania's Dyslexia Screening and Early Literacy Intervention Pilot Program Extension and Expansion for Patent. In addition, she is part of a research team investigating the impact of explicit instruction in advanced phonemic awareness on student literacy outcomes, and we'll talk about that today. She serves on the statewide multitiered System of Supports, or NTS teams working extensively in the area of literacy, effective instruction, formative assessment, and professional learning communities.
[00:02:46.990] - Speaker 2
She has served in a number of leadership capacities at the district level and has served as a Pennsylvania Distinguished Educator for the Pennsylvania Department of Education. Pam is a Certified Language Essentials for Teachers of Reading and Spelling Letters trainer and a certified Reading specialist, and she has the honor of serving as the President of The Reading League Pennsylvania. Those of you that know Pam, you're probably wondering how she does all the things that she does. Her contributions to our collective understanding of the science of reading have been many. So in today's episode, we'll talk more about how she got started, kind of what makes her tick, and we'll talk about the importance of kindness. So welcome to the TRL Podcast. Welcome, Pam, to the TRL Podcast.
[00:03:51.050] - Speaker 3
Thank you, Laura. It's such an honor to be here.
[00:03:53.690] - Speaker 2
It's so great to have you here. In the intro, I mentioned to everybody how you just have made such great contributions to all of us in our professional knowledge and how grateful we are for that. So I'm just grateful you could be here to talk to, let everybody get to know you a little bit more and talk about your work. So I think we'll just jump right in.
[00:04:14.370] - Speaker 3
Okay. Sounds good. It does. Thank you.
[00:04:16.640] - Speaker 2
So I wanted to start just with kind of your origin story because I know people have been really interested in hearing from our guests. How did they get started in education? What were some early influences? So maybe just talk about that for a minute.
[00:04:31.250] - Speaker 3
Okay. Well, I think a lot of us are very fortunate to work in a profession where we really don't think it's work. That is certainly me. My whole life, everything in terms of literacy has really never felt like work because since I was eight and my third grade teacher, I'm sure many people have the same origin story, but I had a third grade teacher that was absolutely amazing and certainly many after. But she left such an impression on my life that I really thought that when I grow up, I want to be a teacher. And the really neat thing was many years later, I was running a latchkey program, and the latchkey program was in the schools, and it happened at one of their school, and she was there talking about the last key program. When I was talking about the last key program, I didn't know it. And I was saying, oh, I'm a teacher because of Ms. Sullivan.
[00:05:21.290] - Speaker 2
Oh, my gosh.
[00:05:22.810] - Speaker 3
And didn't she stand up out of the audience? Oh, my gosh. It was one of those moments you just never forget, you know what I mean? I was just so awesome to be able to thank her all those years later. So I've always wanted to be a.
[00:05:35.940] - Speaker 2
Teacher think what that meant to her, because as a teacher, that just is what fuels our heart is when you know that you've made an influence like that. What was it about her?
[00:05:47.870] - Speaker 3
I think a lot of it, honestly, was her caring. She was a very caring, nurturing teacher. She was very skilled teacher. I learned a lot in her class, but I also felt like she was very vested in all her students. She would write little notes that you could take home and for your parents. And so much of my teaching, I really tried to emulate all that I loved and still do love all my kindergarten students that I had and went to their birthday parties and their baseball games and all of that. They were like my other little family. So it's very fortunate and blessed to have a life where you can serve. But also you get so much there's so much that returns to you.
[00:06:30.650] - Speaker 2
Was that your first teaching job as kindergarten?
[00:06:33.710] - Speaker 3
Yes, with kindergarten. And I taught kindergarten in the morning. This is when they had half days. I had kindergarten in the morning, and I taught gifted in the afternoon. So it was a big stand.
[00:06:42.760] - Speaker 2
Yeah. Did you go from teaching then into your work that you're doing now, or what was the next step for you?
[00:06:52.250] - Speaker 3
I became a reading specialist eventually, but what my next step was and this is such an odd maybe journey. I always say I really should still be in that classroom. That kindergarten classroom might be very happy to be there, but I have a heart for all my kids, for my kids who are at risk. I had the most heart, and I had my reading specialist certification, and I didn't want to put it on my Cert. You know what happens when you put it under Cert? They can put you anywhere. At one point, though, if I didn't put it on, I would never be able to put it on because I was running out of time. Do you know what I mean? And so I thought, well, I'll put it on there and hope that they don't make me leave the classroom. But while I was searching the Pde website, which can be a bit of a black hole sometimes, I saw a link that said Distinguished educators. And I thought, oh, gosh, I wonder what that is. And as it turned out, the state at that time was initiating. I think about it almost as a Peace Corps kind of thing, in the sense that they were launching distinguished educators who would go into the highest risk schools in the state and be embedded in there for a number of years to support them with systemic change.
[00:08:08.310] - Speaker 3
Honestly, here I am, a kindergarten teacher. I did have my national award certification and everything like that. This sounds so wonderful to be able to really help where there's a great need. And I applied for it. The first time I went to patent actually was for my first interview. For that, I walked in the room as a little kindergarten teacher. All these people are in the room, doctor so and so doctor so. I'm like, oh, my gosh, what am I doing here? So written exams first. And then they did interviews where they put a scenario out there for you to see how you would interact with others. Then they put you in field work and observed your interactions with principals. They put you out there. And then there was a governor's school where there's more interviews and more practices that we had to engage in. And then six months later, they selected the first cohort of De. And there are only two teachers selected in the state. And I was one of them. And I always say, honestly, it was a God thing. It really wasn't anything else but that. But as a teacher, I have so much joy being with children.
[00:09:17.610] - Speaker 3
It was a difficult decision. And my district was so kind to give me a leave of absence so I could go and do this. But I never realized until I did it, that I could have as much joy helping adults as I could kids. And so the vast majority of the dead superintendents and directors. Wow. So I was very fortunate to learn so much from them. They were so generous. It was something. And then I went back to my footage.
[00:09:50.810] - Speaker 2
But, Pam, don't you think that you followed that calling? Right. I mean, you felt that was calling to you, you followed it, and then it sets your career on a whole different path, right?
[00:10:03.410] - Speaker 3
It did. I mean, if I hadn't been looking for that link, I would still be in the kindergarten classroom and very happy. I don't mean that at all. But that's why I say I don't think it's like a God thing. What are the chances that I would be looking for that the link would be there? And also that I know the first experience I had was in a large school, and the Superintendent introduced me because I was leading the group in and she's a kindergarten teacher. And I said I was like, yes, I'm so proud to be a kindergarten teacher. I don't know if he meant it that way. Right. But I think sometimes early educators, there may not be as much respect or knowledge that the deep knowledge they need to have in order to ensure that children read. Yeah, it was life altering.
[00:10:49.450] - Speaker 2
Well, would you consider that kind of one of the watershed moments in your career?
[00:10:54.940] - Speaker 3
For sure? Most definitely. I mean, I moved out of my house. I lived out away from home, except for on the weekends for almost three years. So it changed me. But, I mean, I still love being with kids is what I love about my job at Patent. But I'm still in classrooms, still with teachers, still with students, but that you can also hopefully help systems adults, too, because those are the ones the adults are the ones who are making the decisions that impact the kids.
[00:11:22.440] - Speaker 2
Well, I think, Pam, you were called to that. And so for every teacher that you impacted in one year, that impacted 25 kids or 30 kids. So your impact on children just magnified essentially?
[00:11:37.500] - Speaker 3
I hope so. That was my goal.
[00:11:40.650] - Speaker 2
That's a three year program.
[00:11:42.450] - Speaker 3
No, it was two years. But then the state Department of Ed have asked if I could stay an additional year, and my district did allow me to do that. Okay. I did return a little bit sooner because in our district, the PSSA state assessments came back, and my Superintendent was like, oh, all that stuff you learned, come back and help us.
[00:12:04.160] - Speaker 2
So I went back from there. Did you go to Patent?
[00:12:09.390] - Speaker 3
No, from there with a reading specialist in the afternoon. I work at system wide supporting instruction and intervention and data analysis. And that's when I had my reading recovery training as well. And I ended up being asked to come back as a person who would interview potential other de. And I ended up the person sitting next to me doing interviews was the director of patent at that time. And she said, oh, you really need to come back and work at the state level.
[00:12:40.720] - Speaker 2
Got it. Okay. Yeah. So, Pam, you mentioned your reading recovery training. You mentioned the training for this. Were you well prepared in terms of being a reading specialist and knowing how to work with teachers in this area? Were you prepared in the area of the science of reading? Tell me about your preparation.
[00:12:59.910] - Speaker 3
My preparation was much like many teachers and many specialists across the country. It was very balanced literacy, whole language. It was really thought as the epicenter. The most rigorous reading recovery was the most rigorous path you could take towards that goal. So definitely in this area, it was very much balanced literacy. There really wasn't anything else. And I think lots of teachers are in that same boat. I think less so now in the sense of knowing even there's something else because of the reading League, because of social media and the Hanford, others, they can hear about the science of reading. But when this was happening, you went to College, right? Your professor said this is the best way to teach children. You would have. I mean, I had no reason not to believe them. So I always say because again, I had the honor of being a national letters trainer now as well. There hasn't been a letters training that I have done where there isn't somebody in the stages of seven stages of grief. And I know because I went through them myself. I mean, it was hard. It was hard because all teachers, I'm sure, reflect on and I did students that I had, but somehow I just couldn't reach.
[00:14:13.860] - Speaker 3
And I kept thinking, what is missing? And you know what's going to happen when kids aren't skilled readers, right. So I think we all go through that guilt. I know I did. And that sadness and then anger. Why didn't I notice? Because it's been out there. It's not like when I was going through my undergraduate, any of my certifications that I have that it wasn't known. It just wasn't known to me or to many others in my state.
[00:14:48.630] - Speaker 2
You know, Pam, I have the same story so many of us do. Right. We came up as balanced literacy or whole language teachers. And I think that's one thing I've talked to teachers about. We kind of have to let go of what we didn't know and embrace what we know now. But I really appreciate how you frame that around kind of like stages of grief.
[00:15:11.620] - Speaker 3
It really is. But in some ways, I honestly think it helps me. And I hope it does. I hope it helps me be a better trainer. And honestly, of all the people I know in our profession, and I have the honor of knowing a lot of people I only know one person, one who from the very beginning knew the science of reading, never have been taught anything else. It's Aaron Amy. Her mom is a very skilled Orton Gillingham trainer and specialist and tutor and created her own curriculum. Erin never knew anything, but honestly, she's the only person I've ever met that didn't start on this path in a different way. Wow.
[00:15:53.290] - Speaker 2
Interesting.
[00:15:54.120] - Speaker 3
Yeah.
[00:15:54.400] - Speaker 2
Of all the people you've met, and that's considerable.
[00:15:56.750] - Speaker 3
Right. What about you, too, Laura? Have you met anyone who from the beginning?
[00:16:00.700] - Speaker 2
No.
[00:16:01.420] - Speaker 3
Okay. All right. Yeah. One.
[00:16:04.790] - Speaker 2
So tell us about your work at Patent and tell us what Patent is, because we'll have a lot of listeners that may not know. So go ahead and tell us what that is. Tell us about your work there.
[00:16:13.760] - Speaker 3
Okay. So Patent, which is an acronym, is a Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance Network. It is a professional development arm, the Bureau of Special Education in the Department of Education in Pennsylvania. We are IDA funded. So everything that Patent offers to school district becomes at no cost. We span anything that you might need in education, from autism to deaf and hard of hearing, literacy, mathematics, you name it, soup to nuts. And we work in partnership in our state with 29 intermediate units. So when I'm out kind of talking across the country, when I talk about our state system support, there's a lot of States that are envious our IU have technical assistant consultants who are in similar roles to ours, and we work together with local school districts to really help them in my role, move literacy forward. And I serve the state lead for literacy at Patent. Okay. Sorry. Yeah.
[00:17:13.200] - Speaker 2
So do you go around the state Pam then in these different districts, is it every district or just certain districts?
[00:17:20.370] - Speaker 3
We work with all the districts, but we also work in partnership with our intermediate units. There are 500 districts in the state. And so Patton has three large centers, one in Harrisburg, which is our state capital, one in Pittsburgh, and one in Malvern, which is very near the Philadelphia area. So you have these large state centers regionally and then just directly working with us are intermediate unit partners, and they are funded by Idea funds as well. So we develop training and together.
[00:17:57.250] - Speaker 2
And I know you're involved in a research project specifically around phony awareness, am I right?
[00:18:02.730] - Speaker 3
Yes.
[00:18:03.730] - Speaker 2
Tell us about that, because right now that's a very timely topic.
[00:18:08.310] - Speaker 3
Yes, it is.
[00:18:09.460] - Speaker 2
What is your research revealing for us?
[00:18:12.430] - Speaker 3
Okay. So how the research started is working with the school district that implemented direct, explicit instruction in phony make awareness in kindergarten large school district in our state 13 elementary an ideal research site because they have both rural, suburban and urban schools.
[00:18:32.660] - Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.
[00:18:33.600] - Speaker 3
All right. And so when they implemented this instruction, their kindergarten scores, of course, increased significantly. But what was most telling was the elementary school 13. Six are title schools. And those schools were achieving at or above the non title schools. And their growth data was like off the charts. When we think about research, there's causality, there's correlation. We implemented a new way of instructing. We saw significant gains in kindergarten. But can you say that it was a direct result of so in order to do that, you need to control variables this week was, I think, very generous and willing to test the hypothesis of was it this particular type of instruction or was it something else? In partnership with the University of Connecticut and Mike Coyne and Lena Edwards and Thorough, who works out of the University of Oregon and partners with them, we established an RCT, a randomized controlled trial in first grade. And so the 13 elementary schools, they were randomly selected and matched pair design. So, for example, one of their rural schools was in treatment, and one of the rural schools was not they were randomly selected, match care design. So in the control schools, they could continue, of course, to teach, want to make awareness, but not in a particular way with this curriculum.
[00:20:11.110] - Speaker 3
And then the treatment schools. Of course, they could.
[00:20:13.520] - Speaker 2
Yeah.
[00:20:14.140] - Speaker 3
The other difference was in terms of variable is the treatment schools run Plc every month. All right. Okay. Yes. All their first grade teachers and reading specialists had a monthly Plc with me around the science of reading. And of course, it started out with the simple view of readings. Scarboroughs, Reading, Rope, anchor us. We had fun with PH Word because they can be so confused. And yes, there was definitely a deep focus on truly understanding phonological and phony awareness, error correction, how to teach the articulatory gestures, all those foundational things. And then each month we would rotate to a different one of these schools, and we would also, which I think is the most valuable. And the teachers said was the most valuable, too, was after the first month of Norming and getting us anchored, I asked for volunteers who wouldn't mind having us kind of come in and see a lesson. And there's always teachers. And I say I honor them so much because they have 20 teachers, because I had like 20 some teachers in the morning and 20 some in the afternoon, all kind of like bunch into your room to look at your instruction.
[00:21:23.590] - Speaker 3
That's a little hard.
[00:21:25.270] - Speaker 2
Yeah.
[00:21:25.860] - Speaker 3
Right. Yes. I mean, because who do you want to do your best for, really? Your peers. Right. And I always feel that teaching is the most isolating profession there is, and it is such a loss. It truly is. When I became a reading specialist, I found out in my school there were teachers teaching in ways that I was going out in conferences to try to figure out how to do. And they were right down the hall, but I didn't know they would go in and see a lesson. And we had like a little checklist and we would give feedback. And the great thing was because there's always science in their art, right. So even in a curriculum that is somewhat scripted, there's a lot of art in it, too. And it was so neat to see. I love that the good practices that the teachers were engaged in one school, one month that we all showed and see, then all of a sudden the next month you see them, it's like spreading good practice, and it's building community and it's building culture of learning and breaking down those barriers. So there was always a review kind of to start just to think about a good lesson kind of review what we learned last month.
[00:22:32.720] - Speaker 3
Okay, here's some new learning that we're going to add onto your learning. We're going to go visit a classroom and see the instruction, and then we're going to talk about what we saw and how we can refine our practices and then come back next month. So that was kind of the added layer. And I think sometimes that's such an important one because our professional learning often is one and done, even if even in school district, if you're handed a curriculum and you're lucky enough to have the training, you then still have to try to figure it out yourself. But also, kids don't respond in the ways kids don't respond like robots. So I was so excited to see when we went visited one classroom, we were working with Eckery, too, which is direct, explicit instruction and literacy routines with error correction procedures. So we're in watching a lesson and the students make a mistake, and the teacher stops right away and says, my turn models the correct response. Your turn. I mean, just right there. Right? So all those things that are so essential to effective instruction, explicit, direct, systematic, error correction, opportunities for practice for kids, but also those things are important for teachers.
[00:23:39.860] - Speaker 3
So each month going around to these different schools, and some of the teachers have never even been to the other schools in the district. So in addition to the curriculum, too, there was Fidelity checks. There were logs. Mike Coyne and his staff came down and did Fidelity checks, did interviews, the teachers for explanatory research to kind of think about how the teachers felt about this. And at the conclusion, we had a really nice bump in effect size. We had a zero point 55 effect size. And as a result of that, Mike and I and the group from the University of Connecticut wrote an Ies grant to hopefully scale that up. It wasn't awarded this year. We're hoping it will maybe next year with some Tweaks. But this is the way research works in the sense that we saw some nice outcomes that we couldn't really lay our finger on and say for certain it was a result of this instruction. Then we engage in the RCT and control variables and then we have confidence to say in this setting under these conditions with these students, this is what we can say. But when we want to make general statements like some that we can make in education and settled science has come from many replications of studies under conditions with different kids, different situations.
[00:25:04.240] - Speaker 3
So that's what we hope to do is to scale up that study across the state. And so in these different environments, not just the school district that we were in, can we see similar results? And if we do, we then we see with even more confidence that this works great.
[00:25:23.730] - Speaker 2
Pam, I just want to go back and just talk about some of the characteristics of this study that you endeavored to do. First of all, you mentioned that you had the data. You kept this kind of relentless look at data, direct, explicit instruction, control the variables, the monthly Plc involving observations, review and feedback cycle. All those ingredients then can be put into the study. So I want to magnify that for our listeners so that they can kind of think about okay. As we look to enacting certain practices in our classrooms, what do we need to do in order to get those kinds of results that you got right? But I really want to key in on this culture of cooperation and learning. I think what you mentioned about the ability to build that trust and to tap into that art of teaching that's just so critical. What do you think was the kind of the special part that developed that trust? What was the special secret sauce that allowed you to develop that trust?
[00:26:36.510] - Speaker 3
I hope it's that I create an environment for safety.
[00:26:42.460] - Speaker 2
Yes.
[00:26:43.030] - Speaker 3
I think the same thing for kids. I'm trying to create the same environment for teachers that I work with as I did for my students. We don't learn environments where we're afraid to ask a question, where we all feel that I'm stupid if I ask this question. Right. And I think sometimes my background not knowing helps a little bit like that. And I'm here today telling you things, but a year from now, I'll know things hopefully that I don't know now that I'll feel bad about that. I didn't know today. But what I'm saying is if you're going to be a teacher, you must always be a learner. You serve children. Ultimately, I serve children. I serve teachers, too, but I serve children. And so I must continue learning because that's the highest calling I think, that you can go to is to help children. And I heard that from them, they felt really safe. They felt like they got to know each other and they could ask questions. And they were collaborating across the district when they hadn't before in the interviews that Mike did best PD that we've ever had. And that's not because of me.
[00:27:50.860] - Speaker 3
It's because of the structure in the sense that they were allowed to dig in. They were supported by their school districts. Every single month, our district got substitutes so that they could spend 3 hours really digging into the science of reading, seeing each other's, practice, reflecting on that, that means a lot to leadership is so important in this. And Stacy Churney with my lead contact there and the Superintendent Doctor Carol Johnson, when leadership sends a message, but then acts on that message, that makes a difference. They were saying, wow, they are investing in us. We're out of the classroom every month and we're getting to visit. And it meant a lot to them that the district was willing because for the most part, very few districts invest in long term, job embedded professional learning. That's really what a Plc is. Lots of places are saying they're doing Plc, but they don't have the principles and tenants that are aligned with the research that says this is a true Plc. And this was a true. It really was a true Plc. Shared and supportive leadership, shared values and vision, shared personal practice. They were learning collectively, together and applying that.
[00:29:04.930] - Speaker 3
Those are the tenets of PLCs.
[00:29:08.970] - Speaker 2
I love that. And I think I'm just hearing you say so many things that I think are just so resonant. First of all, this environment, creating the environment for teachers that you would want to create for children because we all require this kind of risk free environment in which we can take chances and feel supported in that you also bring up the leadership and how critical leadership. That doesn't just say, but does active leadership. And then the idea that we see ourselves as always learning, we're always moving forward. I am with you 100% on that. I always say to groups that I speak with, if I come back a year from now and I'm not saying something different, shame on me. Hopefully we'll all have continued to move forward.
[00:30:02.220] - Speaker 3
And I think that's how that Plc made them feel that you might not be where you want to be yet, but you're on the path and that's what's important. And it was one of the best years, my best professional years of my life, because I really felt connected to them, connected to the students, connected to the learning. And I was seeing great things and the teachers were and the teachers hearing from their peers. I love how you did that. You know how when you see kids beam, do you know what I mean? I could see that efficacy. At first it was self efficacy, but then it was collective efficacy.
[00:30:44.500] - Speaker 2
Collective efficacy.
[00:30:45.810] - Speaker 3
I love that. I don't know. I missed them. They still email. We missed you. I missed you too. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
[00:30:53.440] - Speaker 2
Well, hopefully we'll all be back in school soon. But I read that when you received your doctorate, your dissertation focused on the efficacy of professional learning communities. So does this really inform the work then that you set out to do.
[00:31:09.800] - Speaker 3
It did at the time. I will be an adjunct at Mount St. Joseph this summer, and I'm so honored for that. But there aren't a lot of places or there weren't at least where you could get your doctorate in reading science. So I really thought focusing on learning structures that really result in teachers learning, but at the same time building community, because when an individual teacher learns, it's an island of excellence, and that is not equitable. You shouldn't have to win the teacher lottery. Right. So we need to build environments that are supportive and create cultures and climates where there's continuous learning and that can't be done in one day wonders.
[00:31:55.110] - Speaker 2
Right. Pam, you bring up something I think that's really important that I talked about with another guest that we had, which is that we are really focused a lot on the science of reading, but we also need to focus on the science of learning. How do we not just our kids, but we as teachers, how do we learn and how do we enact those principles for our own learning and then use those same principles to help our students learn as well? I love the way you're speaking to this, not only the science of reading, but also this whole idea of the science of learning.
[00:32:29.230] - Speaker 3
And I think part of it is a voice and choice. Although they were all engaged in curriculum, each of the PLCs offered a number because we looked at sound walls, a quotable text, all kinds of things, but it offered them pathways to enter. I wasn't telling them, you have to do this or that, but I was teaching them and saying, here's some things that will be effective. And, hey, maybe you want to try them. So it's also interesting to see how there was a ripple effect well beyond the curriculum in phony make awareness because we were focusing on different areas related to science and reading, but also grounded in evidence but grounded in practicality. Okay. You learned something about the science because you must we must rest on science, but here's how to translate that and make a choice. Do you want to try that? And so you would see teachers going off some doing sound walls something. Yeah. I really need to look at the codable text. One of the schools completely redid their Bookroom. Unbelievable. Took all their level text and group them by topic to build knowledge, but then bought decodable text and organized them by phonic scope and sequence.
[00:33:40.230] - Speaker 3
So you could see, like tangible evidence. Right? Yeah.
[00:33:45.460] - Speaker 2
And I think what you're speaking to is speaking to as well is the ownership. If you build it, you own it. And I think that whole idea of you said choice and voice and multiple points of entry.
[00:33:58.530] - Speaker 3
Right.
[00:33:59.150] - Speaker 2
You're extending invitations for multiple points of entry.
[00:34:03.270] - Speaker 3
Yes. It was really neat to see which way they went. Right.
[00:34:07.240] - Speaker 2
Well, you know what I love about everything? You're saying, Pam, is it just reiterates, I think, how people perceive you. You're a real teachers teacher, and you're still there working with kids and loving that and thinking about how do we learn and how do we bring our best selves in to the learning. And I think your work has really struck a chord with a lot of people. I know you're so prolific, the wakelets and paddlets. And by the way, Pam, what's the difference between a Padlet and a Wakelet? I need to know.
[00:34:39.930] - Speaker 3
There really isn't much difference. It's just that as you know, some people were kind of taking my work and saying it was their own. So in a way that I can protect that work and still share it. So it's a way to curate resources to share everything. I always do, I always do for free. And I'm glad to share. So the path pretty much started out. I post a lot, which, you know, but honestly, teachers are going in a large part to social media to learn about the science of reading. And so you go where the teachers are. And so I would post things and someone would say, hey, you posted this. You have it. I was like, oh, my gosh, I started putting these in spreadsheets and then I found out about PABT and I thought, okay, so I can keep it. And that way people can access it and I can keep adding to it. But I'm very particular everything on there. Things have changed very vetted. So it all aligns with the science of reading. It's a nice balance, I think, of professional learning and resources to put it into your practice.
[00:35:43.920] - Speaker 3
So I don't know. I didn't know how much they were used until I moved them over to Wake Lift. Then I found out. So I was just pushing them out and saying, of course. So I have lots around different topics, but it's just my way. Hopefully you're contributing a little bit of something.
[00:35:58.410] - Speaker 2
I think you can tribute a lot of something, sister.
[00:36:02.910] - Speaker 3
And I'm sure you get a lot.
[00:36:04.040] - Speaker 2
Of really good feedback and well deserved. Do you think that your work? I tend to think about the stuff that you put out as striking a deep chord because it's so grounded in practice.
[00:36:16.590] - Speaker 3
Yeah, I think so. I am always grounded first in the research, but I always am looking for what ways to translate that research into practice. I always think of them as like little. I don't know if this sounds bad, but Trojan horses like little things that you can change in your practice that align with the science of reading that can have a big impact. And oftentimes behavior proceeds belief in the sense that if I can help a teacher change an instructional behavior that is more aligned with the science of reading and then students learn more, then the teachers believe and that the science of reading has some merit to it. And they want more. So all teachers want their students to learn more. So I always believe that students lead the way there in the sense that they are showing us what works. We need to be paying attention to that.
[00:37:11.110] - Speaker 2
It's funny when you mention behavior, persuades belief. It's funny because I know when I first started out working with adults, I used to think that you had to have your belief straight before you could enact behavior or practice. And I've come completely differently thinking about that. That behavior can influence and impact our belief. I want to mention, too, we'll put in the show notes how people can access your okay brakelets, because you know, everyone's going to want that Pam people who are listening that may not know. I wanted to mention, too, that I've read in one of your BIOS that your mission is to build collaborative partnerships that develop educators knowledge and skills, leading to increases in student achievement. And I just think that's a really lovely personal mission.
[00:38:02.870] - Speaker 3
It still is. I was thinking about this today, Laura, and I thought, what is grounding everything. And honestly, it's relationships. If you don't have relationships with people that are granted in them thinking that, of course your first goal is something that's good for them. Do you understand what I'm saying? That your goal is to help them to make their life better, to make things clearer for them around the planet. If people don't believe that even when they're starting to behave in different ways, if they don't trust and they don't feel like you're a person, I can learn from it'll start, but the spark will go out. I think so much of it, too, is just about being a good human and being kind and noticing what they're doing well. Because when I speak for myself, when I found out about the science of reading, I honestly felt like pond scum. Someone had said something to me, how you feel? I don't feel like I am worthy to walk to the door of this school because how did I not know this? Right. And so it's not a good place to be. And so that's why I think it's so important for these climate and culture and these collaboration, because when you're going through it together.
[00:39:20.630] - Speaker 3
Right. Especially in the PLCs, they were telling each other, like, I love what you're doing. How often do teachers here that instruction was so amazing. And I loved how you did this. And as a kindergarten teacher, I wanted to hear that from another kindergarten teacher. That's the opinion that meant the most to me. My principal didn't know a lot about early childhood. Right. And so hearing from my peers that I was doing something that they valued and they would take to their practice meant a lot to me. It built my efficacy. And that's what I saw in these teachers. Right?
[00:39:55.860] - Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I think that it goes back to what you mentioned just kind of as humans. Right. I mean, as humans, what do we want? We want to be heard. We want to be acknowledged. We want to be seen.
[00:40:08.650] - Speaker 3
Right.
[00:40:08.920] - Speaker 2
We want to really be seen. And also we want to be treated kindly.
[00:40:12.830] - Speaker 3
Yeah. And that's just the truth. It's the truth, and it's just human nature. But sometimes we don't act in ways that really support humans and learning and adult learning, especially teachers. Honestly, they're in their rooms and the door shuts. My principal came in twice a year, and I was so sad when I became a reading specialist. And I'm in classrooms in my building, and I'm thinking, how did I not know that you were doing this? I was in my room trying to struggle how to translate that if I'm going to a conference. And yet here this teacher down the hall was doing it like gangbusters, but I was never out of my classroom until I was no longer a classroom teacher. There's something very wrong with that.
[00:40:59.090] - Speaker 2
The opportunity to watch and collaborate and support, it's really important.
[00:41:05.490] - Speaker 3
It builds community.
[00:41:07.080] - Speaker 2
Right. Well, Pam, so when we think about your journey, which has been really super interesting, and I want you to reflect back on over the course of your career, how far do you think we've come as a community of literacy educators and what's the work left to do?
[00:41:30.590] - Speaker 3
I think we've come a long way, to be honest with you. I know there's a long way to go yet. And I think as educators, we're always reflecting on what we haven't done yet. We're not very good at patting ourselves on the back for how far we've come. But just even me knowing that the science of reading shows that we've changed, that there's been progress, I think, more so now than many years prior. I think that the Reading Reading League has a lot to do with that. Just look at the growth of the Reading League, my gosh, and what's been accomplished in such a short amount of time that speaks to how much we've grown. I think Emily Hanford has brought the conversation into the general public, and we know it's parents voices that truly matter. And all our States have passed the sex field legislation. Thank you, parents. You have led the way and made such a difference for all children because we know that the instruction that benefits children with reading challenges benefits all children. So I think we've come a long way. It's in the general population. It's in The New York Times, it's everywhere.
[00:42:38.750] - Speaker 3
But there's still resistance and there's money in politics always involved. But I think that the Reading League and others, we're literacy warriors. We will not stop until we drop the day die. That's the day I stopped, because as I said before, we have a calling to serve children and the right of every child to be able to read and reach their potential because we know that's the barrier to all other trajectories. If you cannot read, what can you do? So we have a high calling and we have to persevere that's right.
[00:43:22.780] - Speaker 2
It's funny. Just today we were talking about some new models to put on the back of our T shirt. I like what you just said. We are literacy warriors. We will not stop.
[00:43:32.620] - Speaker 3
We won't. Maybe that's our new I've yet to meet a Reading member that didn't apply to right 100% agree with you. And together we can accomplish things that we can't prior. Everyone was kind of doing their thing and doing their best individually. But like Maria has so many times, it's a League. We're a League, and together we can make a difference, right? Yeah.
[00:43:59.860] - Speaker 2
I always tell people the word League is very deliberate. And you look at the logo and how it symbolizes the stakeholders and all of us playing a part in keeping this momentum going. I think that's really so true. So on that note, let's talk a little bit about the Reading League Pennsylvania. I mentioned in the intro that you're the President of the Reading League Pennsylvania. And of course, it's been a thrill for me to get to know you through that work. And just so our listeners know, we're growing at the time of this filming, we have eight chapters and we have quite a few other States in the queue so that the Reading League chapter movement is growing. And you're one of the founding chapters, by the way. So tell us some of your plans for the Reading Week. Tell our listeners some of the plans for Reading League Pennsylvania.
[00:44:49.670] - Speaker 3
Well, upcoming in the spring. Dr. Katherine Paismyles is coming back to join us. She did an amazing presentation on types of high frequency words, and she's returning with her graduate students to talk about the translation of this research into practice, which I love. So they're kindergarten teachers and other teachers that are talking about how they applied, and they'll have videos of that practice. We are going to be collaborating with the Reading League Wisconsin in Louisiana to do a session with William Banque on handwriting. And then in May, that's at the end of April. And in May, we have Aim coming to talk about their new writing work. And so those are just some things coming up. But we're always on social media pushing out lots of great resources. A big thank you to our board members, Don Ricard, who's a vice President, Aaron Amy, who's the Secretary, DA Fulton, who is our Treasurer, and Jackie Davalee. So I'm very honored to be on the board with them. We work really hard. We're small and mighty, and we keep chugging away. And we will thank you for giving.
[00:45:54.260] - Speaker 2
Us a shout out to your board. You guys are hardworking.
[00:45:56.850] - Speaker 3
You guys are very hard working.
[00:45:58.100] - Speaker 2
You have a lot of activities going on for the teachers and educators in Pennsylvania. And I'll put in the show notes how they can find you. But why don't you just tell the audience how they can connect with Reading League, Pennsylvania?
[00:46:10.250] - Speaker 3
It's going to www.readingpa.org. Very good. Okay, good.
[00:46:15.980] - Speaker 2
So just to kind of reflect back, Pam, what are some of the greatest lessons you've learned in your career?
[00:46:26.270] - Speaker 3
Let me think about that. Greatest lessons. I think it's back to the same thing that it matters how we connect with people, whether it be a child or an adult, that we treat each other with kindness and support one another, and also that we celebrate our small wins along the way so we don't get tired on the journey because it's a long journey. But it's just together, we're stronger. And it's an honor to know so many people and how grateful I am to have learned from so many people over the course of my career. So I don't know. I think it's more like gratitude.
[00:47:06.150] - Speaker 2
Yeah. And I feel that from you, Pam. I always feel that gratitude. And I think you're a great role model in that way.
[00:47:16.130] - Speaker 3
Thank you.
[00:47:17.870] - Speaker 2
So I do want to close with our rapid fire questions. So you've already named one of our rapid fire questions. Who's your favorite teacher and why? And you already mentioned Ms. Sullivan, is she your favorite teacher of all time?
[00:47:33.220] - Speaker 3
She is.
[00:47:34.370] - Speaker 2
She is my favorite because you mentioned she was kind and caring and invested in her kids. So she helped settle that into your heart.
[00:47:44.850] - Speaker 3
Didn't you like those little Ducks? You know how those Ducks imprint? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:47:51.990] - Speaker 2
So another question is what is your favorite book, either as a child or as an adult? If you can't pick one, just pick a favorite book.
[00:47:58.940] - Speaker 3
Okay. Well, it's very typical, but To Kill a Mockingbird is one of my favorite books and one of my favorite children's on right now to read my grandkids, Lola, Leo, Lilly, Louie. And Daphne is the Gruffalo. Oh, yeah. It's so good. They love it, too.
[00:48:16.490] - Speaker 2
Now, I noticed you just gave a shout out to your grandkids. Say it again. Slower. Pam, what are their names? So they can hear themselves on this podcast.
[00:48:24.730] - Speaker 3
Okay, so Lola, Leila, Leo, Lily, Louie and the deal breaker. Daphne. Daphne, the deal breaker. I love it. Yes. Well, I have a lot of LS in my life. Letters, literacy and all the five first and then Daphne, she broke the streak. She just turned one. So they're eleven, nine, seven, four and one in seven months.
[00:48:52.370] - Speaker 2
What a great gift, though. Your grandchildren are my gosh. Talk about gratitude, right? Yeah. Well, we could talk, grandma talk all day, right?
[00:49:01.270] - Speaker 3
We could.
[00:49:02.200] - Speaker 2
So, Pam, what are you reading right now?
[00:49:04.740] - Speaker 3
Right now I'm reading this and I wonder if you read it.
[00:49:07.730] - Speaker 2
I know. I don't know. It's called being human, being human.
[00:49:11.960] - Speaker 3
And it's Judith Human, and she's a disability rights activist. It's about her journey. Oh, my gosh. It's compelling. It's really good. Okay.
[00:49:20.700] - Speaker 2
Being human. I'll put that in the show notes, for sure. I'll put that in the show notes. Great. Okay. And what do you have on your desk that symbolizes you or is dear to you?
[00:49:36.650] - Speaker 3
I have pictures of my grandkids.
[00:49:38.420] - Speaker 2
Of course I do.
[00:49:41.320] - Speaker 3
But I do have a pillow that one of my kindergarten students and a quilt right behind. My whole class made a quilt once for me with her handprints. My mother made it. And I have a pillow that a student made, too. I think we need to be anchored to the kids. I am in a practicum for Orton Gillingham. I think the further removed we are from kids, I think we still have to have that deep connection to kids while we're still working on systems. I think it gives us more credibility, too.
[00:50:15.700] - Speaker 2
I totally agree, Pam. And our kids need that. Our kids need that connection from us, don't they?
[00:50:23.290] - Speaker 3
They do, yeah. My oldest granddaughter, Lola, has dyslexia, and so she is my practicing student, although there'll be others in the future. And I do think that's one of the best parts of Patent. We are very much grounded still in classrooms while we're still working on systems. So I am grateful to Angela Kirby and Katari, who are my directors at Patent, for their leadership and knowing that how important it is to be connected still to the classroom while we're still at the same time working at the state level and working at the systems level. I think when you're grounded in the classroom, it gives you even more encouragement to be working on the system. Yeah.
[00:51:05.860] - Speaker 2
Well, I can tell just from talking with you and just knowing you now, that's what keeps you energized. It is it's like your feet are in the classroom, right. Your heart is in the classroom, and that's really what keeps you energized, Pam.
[00:51:20.470] - Speaker 3
Yeah. It really anchors you. So you know what your purpose is? It's never far from you.
[00:51:28.430] - Speaker 2
What are the greatest hopes you have for today's children?
[00:51:32.750] - Speaker 3
I wish for every child that they become skilled readers so they can become the person they are meant to be. I wish for just like my quote, I wish for every teacher to know the science of reading so that they can help every child read that's so empowering. So if we don't help our adults, we don't help our kids. So I wish that for teachers and for students.
[00:51:57.450] - Speaker 2
That's great. Well, like I said, that's beautiful, Pam. Thank you. And I'll make sure to provide in the show notes access to your work so that people who might be listening, who might be new to the science of reading can have some really specific ideas from you on where they can start. So thank you.
[00:52:16.500] - Speaker 3
Thank you. Thank you. I told you it was such an honor. I was a nervous friend, Pam.
[00:52:23.140] - Speaker 2
You know, Pam, it's so funny because one thing I love about you is you always say that. It's an honor. It's an honor for you to serve a patent. It's an honor for you. But I have to tell you, just speaking with you today is my honor and I thank you for this time and this privilege for sharing your wisdom with all of our listeners. You epitomize our mission at the reading League and we greatly appreciate you and the work that you're doing. So thank you, Pam.
[00:52:49.930] - Speaker 3
Thank you truly.
[00:52:51.490] - Speaker 2
All right. I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Dr. Pam Castner. I know I certainly did. I really love the way that Pam do this through line all the way from her third grade teacher, Ms. Sullivan, to the work she's doing, the important work that she's doing today. I love how she characterizes herself as a literacy warrior. She certainly is that. Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate you tuning into our podcast. If you enjoy the podcast, please be sure to rate us and share with your friends and colleagues and we hope to see you next time. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Dr. Pam Castner. I know I certainly did. I really appreciated the way that Pam do this through line from her third grade teacher, Ms. Sullivan, all the way up through the work that she's doing now and really connects all those dots in a very human way with kindness and compassion and gratitude when she characterizes herself as a literacy warrior. She certainly is. That so. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will be sure to put all of the things that we talked about today access to Pam's wakelets reading League, Pennsylvania and the books that Pam recommends.
[00:54:16.500] - Speaker 2
I'll put those in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. And thank you. Thank you for tuning in. We really appreciate you listening to the podcast. If you enjoy this podcast, please be sure to rate us and also to share with your friends and colleagues so we hope to see you next time. Thanks again. You.