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Welcome to The Corporate Escapee hosted by Brett Trainor,
We are on a mission to help 10,000 GenX professionals escape the corporate confines and find freedom and balance. We focus on helping you replace your corporate income by monetizing your experience and working fewer hours.
GenX was raised without many rules and a lot of independence. We want to show you how to reclaim that freedom
We blend stories from escapees, how to episodes, subject matter experts and authors.
Subscribe to Corporate Escapee Podcast define your legacy in the world of business today.
Join us and transform your expertise into a thriving, fulfilling business outside the traditional corporate confines.
Brett Trainor (00:01.576)
Hey Don, welcome to the podcast.
Don Oehlert (00:04.61)
Well thanks, Brad. I'm really glad to be here. It's been a while we've been talking about this, and I'm glad to finally join you.
Brett Trainor (00:09.692)
Yeah, considering we've known each other 20 years ish, somewhere give or take 15 or 20. And yeah, no, I've been looking forward to this conversation. We were joking as we were putting it together. I think we're gonna title it, you know, should I stay or should I go? With you being a Gen X, maybe you'll disagree with that. Corporate, you know, coach, how do I improve my corporate performance and me pushing the escapee route thought perfect time. Let's talk about.
those decisions, right? A lot of people are making them right now. So, but before we get into the heart of it, I want to make sure we introduce you a little bit, give you a chance to talk about what you're doing. Then a little bit about the trends we talked offline, and then we'll get into should I stay or should I go. So for the audience, Dan, what are you doing? I know you're a former corporate escapee, so what are you up to these days?
Don Oehlert (01:01.726)
Yeah, about 40 years of corporate experience, preponderance of that time spent at Apple, and then several years at Zebra where I met you back in 2005, I believe it was. So yeah, we're going on 20 years of friendship. Since leaving those jobs, 2003, I left Apple, and the prior time I had to look for a job was 1987. And so some things have changed.
in looking at how you look for a job and what you need to have prepared and what you need to do as a matter of a job seeker. So I created a coaching offering around that. I spent about 15 years volunteering with a resume review, a religious organization, Catholic Church Ministry, and saw about 600 different presentations from people, HR managers, hiring managers, recruiters, name it. And so it took a little bit from this person, a little bit from that person.
wrote a book about job search, added my own spin, wrote a book about it in an ebook library that helps people, gives them the tools they need to get back on their feet. So I can either do it for you, you can do it by yourself, or we'll do it together. And then after a conversation with you a couple of years back, I started thinking about, why don't I take those tools and techniques I learned on that side of the table and bring them around to the other side of the table? And that is turning out to be very interesting approach.
Brett Trainor (02:12.969)
Yeah, interest.
Don Oehlert (02:28.426)
Because as you know, small businesses can be bankrupted by hiring the wrong person. That can be a matter of cultural fit, that can be a matter of skills mismatch, any number of things. So I've got tools and techniques to help make that a little less of a gamble.
Brett Trainor (02:47.664)
That's what we need, man. We're used to put the odds in our favor even more so. And that's what I love about your story, right? Because as I talk to folks, my big thing is there's a ton of paths you can go. We'll get you to stay, go. But you can go franchise. You can start a business. You can do all this. And I think the old wisdom was, well, if I left corporate, I may have to build the next Google or open a restaurant. And the fact is, no, we've
You know, it's Gen X and beyond. We've got 20, 30, 40 years of experience that we can leverage and start to build and figure out how do we monetize off of that and, you know, leverage those skills. Cause to your point, there's a lot of businesses, small, medium, nonprofits, startups that, you know, can't afford the full time, but yet still need that, that experience. So yeah, no, it's awesome. And the work that you were doing again for 15 years, helping people.
you know, on a volunteer basis is fantastic. So, who better to have this conversation? But before we get there, as we keep teasing this is, you know, what are some of the trends you're seeing? What are you seeing from some of your clients as far as, you know, them wanting to stay? I mean, as I talk all the time, you know, corporate's under fire and it's chaos, and maybe it's not any different than it has been, but this time it just seems a little bit different.
Don Oehlert (04:05.526)
Yeah, you're right. I mean, some of the biggest fears, I guess, for lack of a better word, is that people are afraid to leave that constant paycheck every couple of weeks, every month, every week, whatever the payroll situation is with those different organizations. They like that comfort, and there's something to that. Comfort also in the fact that I know for myself I had a job.
when I was working for someone else. And I did what I did. And I didn't necessarily know and completely understand what other people at the organization did. So accounting, marketing, I wasn't a sales role, so I had that down. But to your point too, operations, with the things that you do, business consulting, not my strengths. So when I started my business almost five years ago, only five years in June,
I had to learn a lot of those things, and that took a lot of time. Made a lot of mistakes, and went down the wrong paths, and thought that this piece of technology or that piece of software was going to be the thing that would put me over the top. It's all about strategy, though, and having a plan, as you've said hundreds of times, I'm sure, and following that plan. Now.
Brett Trainor (05:21.952)
I had one. Yeah. And I think again, this work you and I do and in many others that are helping hopefully some of the lessons you just have to learn as you go through the process, but there's definitely some avoidable ones. Right? I mean, the one thing that I still talk about is probably for the first two years, they did this alone. I'm not even sure you and I knew we were on kind of parallel paths for a while, but it just you just didn't talk about it. And nobody should go through this alone. And there's that's definitely one thing I found, you know, late
better late than never is there's a huge community, a lot of people that are supportive of this. And yeah, it's tough when you do it alone because the highs, the lows, the uncertainties of it. So I think that's just a really good point. And you had mentioned offline too, or maybe this is a different conversation that you're seeing a big uptick in clients from the career coaching standpoint. And
Is it just people looking for new jobs? What are they trying to protect their current ones? What are some of those conversations like?
Don Oehlert (06:31.538)
Yeah, if I go back the full 20 years, I could probably say I've worked with about 850 people, round numbers. Some wanted to stay in corporate for the obvious reasons of the paycheck that I just talked about. Health insurance is a really big deal. And then some people just like to lead teams and give that experience that they have and mentoring to the next generation and the people behind them and the people behind them. I want to leave a mark on the world.
in corporate America. One of the things that I've noticed through some recent research is there are about 330, I'm sorry, 338 million small to medium sized businesses of 499 or fewer employees. Of that, I'm sorry, I said 330, I meant 33 million. And the key is between one employee or the owner,
And up to 19 employees is a really large preponderance of that. About 27 million of those companies are solopreneurs, like yourself and myself. And so there's a really small, probably only about 10% of those companies that are in the 19 to 499. And then above that is Fortune 1000, 2000, and so forth. So a lot of the folks that I've worked with on the coaching side,
Brett Trainor (07:38.077)
Right.
Don Oehlert (07:56.346)
have decided that they don't want to go back and fight those battles anymore. Don't want to go through the politics. Don't want to go through all of those things, meetings upon meetings and having meetings to plan the meetings and so forth and so on. So let's get out and do that. And I think I've heard you say in a number of times on your TikTok videos and also in the podcast is that can we hold for just a second? All right.
allergies.
Don Oehlert (08:31.756)
Another podcast I was on, I took one of my anti-allergy tablets and the girl said, hmm, this is the first time I've ever seen anybody take drugs on my podcast. No. Now I lost my train of thought of where I was.
Brett Trainor (08:41.012)
be the last.
Don Oehlert (08:50.942)
your question.
Brett Trainor (08:51.064)
It was the leaving, right? They were done with the politics and all that thing. So you're just about to make the point of what's next, I think.
Don Oehlert (09:02.898)
Yeah. And to your point, the politics, the micromanagement, all of those things that they didn't appreciate in corporate America has driven some of them to buy a franchise. One of my best clients decided after going through my entire program, he didn't want to go back to corporate America. He bought a franchise and he's been very happy with it. He's been at it for about two years and it's growing very nicely.
He's doing the things he likes to do. He's leading teams, but it's a much smaller team than what he led before. And he's just having fun.
Brett Trainor (09:37.684)
So is it the majority of the folks that are coming to you now with the coaching? Is it trying to figure out what they really want, what their options are, or how to better position themselves in the new corporate landscape? Or both, I guess it could be both.
Don Oehlert (09:53.806)
Yeah, actually, it's a lot of both because some folks, as I mentioned, didn't want to go back and do all of the things that corporate requires. And others have just said, and so they needed to position themselves best. Because as you know, being in corporate America for as long as you were, the higher you go up the ladder, the fewer chairs there are to sit in. So you've really got to show your unique value proposition amongst all the other people that apply for that same job you're going for. That's what a big part of my program is, is to help you figure out what your UVPs are.
Brett Trainor (10:12.081)
Exactly.
Don Oehlert (10:22.226)
and then how do you communicate them effectively and powerfully and quickly? And that's a big portion of it. During that process, we do a lot of, well, what color is my parachute kind of thing? Who am I really? Am I cut out for this, the way the new corporate America is unfolding? Some folks say no, others say, yeah, I enjoy that portion. Great, let's find a way to get you back there. If it's time to break out.
Brett Trainor (10:27.317)
Yeah.
Don Oehlert (10:47.514)
Let's find a way to get you broken out. And that's usually when I introduce them to you and to your TikTok channel and to your podcast and to your tool set, your PDF tool set that you send out.
Brett Trainor (10:58.716)
Yeah, it's definitely an evolving world. And curious from your perspective, like you said, we've been fighting these battles in corporate for a long time, both, I guess, relatively recent, four plus years in mine, five in yours. What is the new landscape going to look like in Corem? I know we're going through a bunch of layoffs right now. Honestly, the other thing that I hear a lot of, which is newer because it really wasn't a thing back, you know, pre when I left was
You know, the micromanagement is a huge issue with, and again, I'm talking mostly Gen X, that like how do you micromanage somebody that's been doing a job for 20 or 30 years, right? And is it a command and control? What's going on?
Don Oehlert (11:29.332)
Mm-hmm.
Don Oehlert (11:43.634)
It strikes me as exactly that. I mean, a lot of these RTO, return to office mandates are exactly that. People, if I can't see you working, you must not be working. And it's like, but if I'm generating results, isn't that really what we're after here? If I'm helping grow sales, if I'm helping to reduce costs, if I'm helping to do all these things, and by the way, I don't have to do it an hour each way through the commute, what's the problem?
And to your point, yes, it is. It seems to me that people my age, and I am a boomer, by the way. I'm not a Gen Xer, but I'm hoping to explain. Yes, exactly that. I'm trying to help the boomers see the same things that you have already. You've gotten your thumb on the pulse of this. Uh, go fractional, go consulting, go whatever, uh, coaching very well.
Brett Trainor (12:22.608)
I said, all are welcome. You're fighting the good fight, so.
Don Oehlert (12:41.33)
And people need to see that those are options. In a recent TikTok video you just did that said something about replacing your corporate income in one or two days a week or per month, I think, wasn't it? Something along those, it was a very short period.
Brett Trainor (12:58.636)
Yeah, for actually two to three days, depending on what your rates are. Yeah. You know, you know, what's interesting. And I think you're probably a good person to get an opinion on this too, because, you know, one of the things that I've, I don't know, preaching isn't the right word, but you know, it's looked, it's a lot of the work now is with people looking to get out and less with what kind of the future of businesses look like. But, you know, you mentioned outcomes and performance.
Don Oehlert (13:03.53)
Yeah, it's amazing. I don't think a lot of people think.
Brett Trainor (13:27.868)
And I am absolutely convinced that we're heading down a path that the successful organization of the future is gonna look more like an ecosystem than it is a hierarchy. And when you can just pay people for performance and or outcomes versus all the other stuff, I mean, one, you think the organization would be up for that. They can shave about 70% of the inefficiencies out of it.
But I've given up hope on enterprise, being able to figure out, they're still trying to figure out sales and marketing alignment, let alone digital transformation all the way to return to office mandates, et cetera. So a lot going on there. But if I think about it from where you're starting to work in the small and mid-sized business and with some of the people exiting, it just makes sense, right? That, hey, I've got this skill, like you, perfect example, right?
Don Oehlert (13:55.839)
Mm-hmm.
Brett Trainor (14:21.008)
somebody that wants to figure out how to get this organization to grow, get the people side of this thing, right. Right. They're not going to be able to afford, you know, somebody like you full time, but as a fractional or some sort of program that you put to dig at the value of your 40 years of experience at a, you know, a fraction of the cost. That's the name fractional, but where if they were looking to hire somebody full time in that role, they'd have somebody that's junior or has not been successful in order to
fitted into that budget. So just curious your perspective or if you've given any thought what, you know, the organizations of the future are gonna look like and I mean future, you know, five to 10 years. I think it's moving that quickly, but just like I said, really curious your opinion on where you're seeing it going because you still have a foot on both sides.
Don Oehlert (15:09.962)
Yeah, great point. One of the things that if you were to hire a chief HR officer, a chief people officer, whatever you want to title it, you're going to pay $250 and up, and up, for that type of service. Small businesses just can't afford that. And so they're saying, hmm, not to mention, you couple that with a fact from SHRM, Society of Human Resource
Brett Trainor (15:30.112)
Great.
Don Oehlert (15:40.162)
that you could lose up to 5x salary if you have to fire or lay that person off within six to 12 months. So 250 and 5x that? Oh my goodness, you know, that's a million bucks. Easy. And, and...
Brett Trainor (15:52.88)
and time, right? Not just the money, but the time lost with it if it doesn't work, or even what you have to pay. How do you get the ROI back on that?
Don Oehlert (16:01.214)
Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, too, if you have, let's say, a staff of 10, and you decide you need a new VP of sales, OK, that person would come in again at the $150,000, $200,000 a year base, and then commissions on top of that and bonuses. It's probably equity and things along those lines. In the meantime, while you're looking for that person, you've got someone on staff that's doing those things, because you need those things done, or else you would be looking for a person to do them.
Brett Trainor (16:30.952)
or he'd be out of business, yeah.
Don Oehlert (16:31.226)
So if you, and then you've got costs to advertise that job, you've got costs of the people that are on the interview team, you've got costs for the people in HR that have to write the job descriptions, you've got costs to advertise that or hire a recruiter to come in and find that purple swirl for you. So if you have to lay them off or fire them within six to 12 months, now you've got to do all those things again. So that's a big part of where those 5X dollars go when you.
have to lay someone off, especially in the executive rank, from a small to medium-sized company.
Brett Trainor (17:06.)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, again, with your experience in the corporate side, how I mean, just, again, we won't beat it to death, but the inefficiencies, right? Because I think I unofficial research, right? 30% of your day is probably doing your job of what you were hired to do. And 70% could be anything else. So, like I said, I just it just makes sense. But I do want to touch because again,
We joked it, should I stay or should I go? And I, you know, for the first couple of years, I was hardcore of everybody should go because I am a hundred percent in the belief that a hundred percent of people who have skills, you're getting paid to do a job in corporate. It will translate and you could find a way to fractionalize that. But on the flip side, not everybody should, right? I have come to that realization that it's, I don't know if it's temperament. So I'd love to get your perspective on.
What are some of the key things that you should stay in corporate? What are the things that you're hearing from folks that don't want to make that leap? So if again, if somebody's on the fence out there thinking about it, you know, what, what what's your, your thoughts on this?
Don Oehlert (18:22.318)
I would say that, again, make sure you've got a plan that is executable and that you can do all of those things at some level. So you have a good plan for what you want to do as a fractional. Then do you have a couple of bucks in the bank to let you slide through those roller coaster months that are going to happen? All business is in cycles. It always has been. It always will be.
So just be aware of that and plan for it and then save for it before you go so that you have some safety there. Find a way to continue health coverage because you cannot live without it these days. Medical costs are way too high for the average person to have to pay out of pocket. God forbid someone has a heart attack or something terrible happened. If you don't have health insurance, it could ruin you personally. Second, get an attorney.
put together an LLC or an S-Corp, whatever's appropriate for your going forward role so that you're protected personally. Because if you make a mistake as a fractional or as a consultant or as a coach, you have the errors and omissions coverage to be able to, they can't take your house. It's protect your wife, your children, your husband, your whatever, your legacy. And all they can get is whatever the...
business is worth. Thirdly, protect your assets, your brand assets. When I worked for Apple, one of the projects I worked on was talking about what is a brand worth. And to Coca-Cola, it was in the billions, for instance. So they have that shade of red. I don't remember the PMS color anymore, but they have that particular shade of red protected. So you and I couldn't go out and create a fizzy brown sugary water drink.
and put it in red cans and call it Don and Brett Cola, or Brett and Don Cola, because alphabetically you're first. But they could sue us for within inches of our lives because we were infringing on their trademarks. They had the responsibility then of reproducing that color of red on their trucks, on their ads, on their cans, even if the threads on their shirts, the Coca-Cola shirts.
Don Oehlert (20:43.286)
Protecting yourself is incredibly important. Making sure you have all those numbers, those things buttoned down so that you don't get a surprise four years, five years. Let's say you've built a brand year in case four years and someone else comes out because you haven't trademarked corporate escapee and says, I wanna do corporate escapee stuff. You have no recourse. You can't tell them to stop, even though you started it first. So those types of things need to be considered wisely.
Brett Trainor (21:13.704)
Considered why absolutely, but not necessarily a deal breaker. But I think it's a, it's a good point, right? Because if that's, um, where you get hung up, then it's going to be tougher because the problem is if you're more worried about all the other things outside of the business, which you have to, it's going to be hard to move the business forward. And so there's gotta be a part, um, I joke that, you know, people think the risk going from corporate into, you know,
Don Oehlert (21:31.244)
Mm-hmm.
Brett Trainor (21:42.696)
call it entrepreneurship, I'm still thinking of a better way because entrepreneurship still is big and grandiose. And I'm talking about solopreneur, but then people think it's content and blogs. And so there's a whole world somewhere in between those is what we're talking about for the most part. But used to say that the leap or that the tightrope you're walking is between skyscrapers. The fact is that tightrope is six inches off the ground, man. If it doesn't work,
You can't get the clients you want, right? Then you fall off, you step back into corporate and you're back at it, right? It's not, so that's, to me, it's not kind of a no-brainer in the sense, if you want it, again, if your passion's not there and you're just not in it, if your heart's not in it, you're not gonna give it a hundred percent, then don't do it because the likelihood of that working is probably slim and none. And the other misconception, I think,
people have is you don't have to work hard. On the contrary, you're already, you gotta, it's the other way around. If you're looking to coast, and you're better off probably staying in corporate and keeping your head down and, you know, doing the job they're paying you to do and collect the paycheck because coming out here and doing this, it's not a coast. It's hard work to get it where you need to. But once you do, all that other BS of corporate is gone. But...
Don Oehlert (22:44.472)
Ha ha.
Brett Trainor (23:09.692)
You know, again, that's what I warn people. If you're not willing to put in the work, you're just looking to step out, then, you know, it's probably not gonna pay off.
Don Oehlert (23:21.034)
Yes. And the point I wanted to make about all that, get that marketing plan and all of that ready, is because once you get that done, then you're able to concentrate on what you do. And you don't have to think about, oh gosh, do I need to see some desist letter for xyz person, because they wrote a blog using my content. So to your point, get that stuff handled early. Be aware that it's there, be aware that you got to handle it, but once it's handled, go out and sell.
and go out and be yourself and go out and make your offer. Make sure your offer is something people actually want, not something that you want. Do a little customer research at the beginning. Talk to guys like you, talk to guys like me, connect with me on LinkedIn, and well, I'll be glad to have conversations with people about that. But once that stuff's all in place, go forth and be happy.
Brett Trainor (23:54.908)
Yes.
Don Oehlert (24:12.03)
and escape that micromanagement and escape that those, I love using your word escapee because it is so fitting. The financial rewards are there with the appropriate amount of work. So yeah, agree with me.
Brett Trainor (24:25.636)
And the control, right? I think that's, you know, I think that's such a good point. Um, it is the basics because one of the things, uh, I haven't found with the Tik Tok, I had the first person who, um, copied, right? I don't know if it wasn't hacked because it wasn't, didn't get into my account, but copied the account, uploaded the vast majority of my videos, and then was DMing people with the crypto scheme. And a couple of kind folks on LinkedIn that followed the
The TikTok and even a couple on TikTok said, Hey, is this you? I'm like, I am not pushing crypto. So no, thank you. Hello, TikTok. There's somebody out here. Uh, so I don't know if I was flattered or pissed or a combination of the two that, I mean, we must be reaching people if somebody's thinking about it. And yeah, I think the other.
Don Oehlert (25:11.512)
Yeah, they came to me as well with the ripoff.
Brett Trainor (25:16.88)
So hopefully nobody followed it and I guess nobody did, I hope. And we're still not that big, but, um, but your points is such a good one on take care of the basics and then just go focus on the business. And, you know, the other thing I tell folks is, you know, what we're doing, maybe you're trying to build a bigger business and, you know, you can tell me otherwise, but you don't need more than five or 10.
companies, businesses in order to support what you want to do. And like I said, if it's fractional, it's probably two, maybe three clients to replace what you were doing in corporate. You want to make more money? Have at it if you want less money. So, you know, our buddy, John Arms likes to talk about micro marketing and that's exactly what it is. It's hard when you get the first to get the first couple, but then you get the flow going.
It's such a good point with the customer research, right? The first, when I first started this, I didn't do it. And I just assumed I knew what everybody wanted, right? And it was trial and error and it starts and stops and got lucky with the deal. And then realize it wasn't scalable, but took your advice with, um, the second one when, when Tik TOK got going. And I've had over a hundred.
customer calls, not even customer calls, just prospect calls from folks thinking about escaping and just listened. I tried to provide value back and say, hey, here's what I would use, here's the way to approach it, here's what works. But then thinking about from an offer standpoint and where it's going, I probably carved out 70% of what I was originally thinking because I assumed this is what people need. But then actually listening to the potential customers and...
You know, everybody's really damn smart and they've been through the battles. So there, there was just specific things they needed not full out, you know, full on coaching program. So, so your point is, is really spot on with do a little bit of research and figure out what they want. Doesn't hurt. They'll have conversations with you. So.
Don Oehlert (27:20.81)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, lots of conversations are, conversations are easy to come by. The people that follow after that is the challenge. And so making sure that you do one thing really, really well. And one of the things I'm focusing on right now is onboarding, because onboarding, people make the decision in onboarding, when they onboard, whether or not they're gonna stay. And we just talked about the costs that are involved if someone leaves within six to 12 months.
Brett Trainor (27:39.776)
Oh.
Don Oehlert (27:50.654)
I've heard of people actually leaving on the first day because they didn't get on boarded at all. One person in particular was shown her cube and nothing else. No one took her to lunch. So around two, her manager was not available. So about 2.30 the manager walked around and this woman was in tears. And the manager, what's wrong? She says, well.
I don't know my login to the email system. I don't have a badge to get in the door I don't have I don't have I don't have and she literally quit on the spot So all of those costs that were spent to recruit her and bring her in were lost for no good reason because nobody made the to talk to her and
Brett Trainor (28:29.096)
Yeah, interesting. Yeah. And guess what? Probably because it was nobody's job, right? And it sits in it businesses don't define it. And I never actually thought about it. That's why we're having you on because now I've thought about it from customer standpoint, right? When you're onboarding a customer, you know, that's the first step of business development in the future is the onboarding of that customer because what they did, so it makes complete sense.
same thing with the employee, right? Retention and future recruiting is going to be how well you bring that person into the company and interesting. Well, you learn something new every day, but it makes sense. But I'm going to guess that the vast majority, if not more of the folks you talk to, company business owners aren't doing that or they don't have a plan.
Don Oehlert (29:22.054)
Right, they don't have a plan, they don't have a repeatable process so that all those IT things are taken care of, all those access badge things are taken care of. Do you even have a computer for the person when they start? Why not send them a really nice welcome gift of, you know, I don't know, a water bottle of, you know, with the company logo on it, if you will, a shirt, a new computer, a nicely decorated cube or whatever you decide you're going to put in office if that's more appropriate, or if they're home.
going to be home employees, hybrid employees, make sure they have everything they need at the home office to be ready to go and then make the time, make the time. I can't emphasize that enough. Make the time to talk and make them feel welcome. Introduce them to the other members of the team. Introduce them to the people that are gonna give them work. Introduce them to the people that are gonna receive their work so that everybody kinda knows who's who around here.
show them the executive washroom and the coffee machine as well.
Brett Trainor (30:20.16)
Yeah, exactly. And even if it's virtual, no, I think it's so true. And I think even in our smaller solo businesses, right, there's things that I've learned over the past couple of years when I've used VAs or some different smaller agencies to help on things. I didn't have a plan and guess what? Fail might be strong-ish, but they may argue that it was a fail because they didn't know what to do. When I brought them on, all of a sudden I'm paying the money for folks.
I didn't have a plan for them. And so I think bigger or small, it's a good lesson as you're going solo to think about those things, even if it's just you. What is that repeatable process that you're going to do? Makes sense. Another thing, too, I think, is even with automation, where that's going in AI and all that good stuff, man, the people are going to become even more important because.
Don Oehlert (30:59.966)
Yes.
Brett Trainor (31:19.024)
It's probably maybe fewer interactions or that, but it's, I don't know, maybe I'm on an island with this one, but curious your thoughts. I'm seeing the people business, so I think I know where you're gonna go, but I don't wanna put words in your mouth.
Don Oehlert (31:36.902)
AI is going to be an interesting tool, but I've been talking to a lot of people about it recently and saying, you know, AI is a lot like a table saw to a carpenter or someone who's not a carpenter. If you don't know how to use it, you're going to cut your fingers off or you're going to burn wood or you're going to waste wood or whatever. It's not going to fit. Things are not going to go well. So use it as a hint, maybe.
Brett Trainor (32:01.376)
Thank you.
Don Oehlert (32:02.038)
I know when I run into a writer's block, I'll post my question to chat GPT or one of the other large language models, and I'll say, if I wanted to talk to XYZ type of customer about XYZ concept, where would I start? It gives me feedback. Obviously, we all know that's a big part of generative AI. But it's going to come out with average content at best.
Because the whole idea behind a large language model is to go out and find correct facts and figures to back up a specific contention. And by the way, there are a lot of language models that make stuff up if they can't find accurate attribution. So you don't.
Brett Trainor (32:29.424)
Yeah
Brett Trainor (32:45.38)
And guess what? It's not flagging it is saying, Hey, I made this up because I couldn't find it.
Don Oehlert (32:50.202)
Exactly that, exactly that. So it's like a fact finder, right? You've got to have a fact finding group. I was a journalist early in my career and you have to do fact finding. Well who said Brett's car was a piece of garbage? Well, Brett said it. Okay, I can believe that. But you know, the old story in journalism is have two sources for everything that you want to publish. Because if you don't, you're going to get somebody's opinion.
And opinions are like noses. Everybody's got one and nobody wants to hear yours. So.
Brett Trainor (33:16.201)
Yeah.
Brett Trainor (33:23.028)
And I think a lot of people are starting to confuse opinion and fact as well, right? I mean, there's a big difference and that makes sense. All right, Don, this time actually flew by. Is there anything else you wanna mention that we didn't cover? I know we went across the board in quite a few different areas, but did we miss anything?
Don Oehlert (33:30.35)
much so.
much so.
Don Oehlert (33:47.214)
Boy, I think we hit pretty much the big topics that I wanted to share with you today. Connect with me on LinkedIn. My last name is spelled O-E-H-L-E-R-T, as in Tom. First name Don, and look for me there. Connect up, glad to chat. I know Brett offers the same, what, invitation, I guess, for lack of a better word. And...
Brett Trainor (34:12.912)
Exactly. And we will, I'll put that in the show notes as well with the link to, to LinkedIn. And it, people know so they can, if they reach out to you, put Don O in the, the greeting. So we know you heard it on this pod podcast, but yeah, you should connect with Don. Like I said, he's been through the journey, a lot of information, right? Maybe a non-traditional fractional. It's got some services. So just a wealth of information. And you heard it. He's, he was dedicated or
Don Oehlert (34:28.619)
Yes.
Brett Trainor (34:41.8)
donated 15 years of his time to help people find jobs before turning it into a business. So great guy, great connection, actually maybe one of the best connectors that I've been around. I like to think I'm pretty good, but man, I'm in the junior varsity level when it comes to connecting people. So highly recommend people connect with you and I think it'd be a positive. So Don, we'll have to have you back on at some point in the not too distant future as corporate continues to.
Implode and you know, we'll help people make the best of it and help them hopefully find homes in the new fractional world That's that's developing. So so I appreciate your time today
Don Oehlert (35:22.116)
Thank you, Brett. I appreciate you having me on.
Brett Trainor (35:25.478)
Anytime. See you John.