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As the CEO of Kit, Nathan Barry has a front row seat to what’s working in the most successful creator businesses.
On The Nathan Barry Show, he interviews top creators and dives into the inner workings of their businesses in his live coaching sessions.
You get unique insight into how creator businesses work and what you can do to increase results in your own business.
One of the things Nathan is passionate about is helping you create leverage.
Creator Flywheels let you create many copies of yourself so you don’t get bogged down with the little things in your business. Flywheels will help you reach a place where you can focus on revenue instead of busywork.
Tune in weekly for new episodes with ideas and tips for growing your business. You’ll hear discussions around building an audience, earning a living as a creator, and Nathan’s insights on scaling a software company to $100M.
Learn how to get more results with less effort and:
Grow faster over time.
Work less hard over time.
Make more money over time.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:14
AI is changing what it means to be authentic online. The more content is generated without anyone behind it, the more people can sense when something's off. And more importantly, you notice when something feels genuine. Chase Reeves has been on YouTube for 14 years. He co-founded fizzle, created more than 40 courses, hosted hundreds of podcasts and designed websites for some of the biggest creators online.
00:00:20:15 - 00:00:44:01
Don't follow your passion. Follow your curiosity. Passion is like a thing I'm supposed to be eventually. But curiosity. There's no pressure on curiosity. Chase has got the full creator skill stack. He's got writing, design on camera presence, videographer editing. Honestly, it's a level of skill and taste that any creator would be jealous of. Social media is bonkers. Do you want to be a successful creator?
00:00:44:01 - 00:01:01:06
You have to get interested in what they're interested in. If you're building an audience around your persona is the same need that you had. When you're making something, you're the guide in the hero's journey. So if you've ever built something successful and wondered why it doesn't feel like enough, this one's for you.
00:01:01:08 - 00:01:17:09
AWS in 2012 I never went to a woods, but I was always doing like the tour guide for like the cool kids, I guess. I didn't know they were the cool kids, even it it's just it's like it's just some people who say, oh, you got to come to this pizza place with me. Yeah, yeah. Cause it how you were living Portland, then?
00:01:17:09 - 00:01:39:10
I was living in Portland. Okay. I showed up 2012, new no one, actually, the very first event that I went to was the Think Traffic meetup. Okay. Because the first two people that I met, it was were James Clear and I was like, yeah. And I registered, went over like to talk to tall Bald man and like, you seem friendly.
00:01:39:10 - 00:01:52:23
I guess I don't know, it's perfect. It's I met them and like talking. And then I was like, well, I'm headed to the think traffic thing. Do you want to you want to come? And I was like, sure, right. So then I met Corbett and Steve Kamm and all these people who, you know, like characters in that space.
00:01:53:04 - 00:02:16:01
But then it was probably the next year that we maybe next year. I feel like you came on to the scene and we were just immediately like connecting with everybody, designing everyone's websites. That was the thing I'm like, as a designer, I was like, who is this guy? His stuff is really, really good. So I'm going to start by talking about the kind of a skill set of a designer because you're like this creator.
00:02:16:01 - 00:02:33:20
Every man like you just take on all the like all the projects and you do all the things. But I first noticed you for the design element. Yeah. Like where you professionally trained as a designer. Like how did that. No, I read a lot of websites. You know, I read a lot of blogs and stuff, but no, but I knew how to use computers.
00:02:33:22 - 00:02:52:13
I knew how to use Photoshop from, like, a pirated version back in college, or I need to make band posters. So I knew how to use the computers. And, and then I had, like, a sense of, you know, it'd be cool if it was like this. And then I figured it out from there. I feel like musicians into content creators.
00:02:52:13 - 00:03:12:16
It's like a under discussed path. Yeah. Like, what are the skill sets from music that you brought in? Because I feel like that's a space where you have to do everything. You have to figure it out. You have to. Yeah. You like the, hard skills with the, the, you know, mixing and editing, like, all this carries over to video, like, what's the direction?
00:03:12:21 - 00:03:32:22
So, I mean, I'd say the through line is taste point of view, perspective like intention. Yeah. Right. It's like, oh, this is you know, as a musician, I never sat down go like, okay, I want like a, like a for 40 beats per minute love song. Something that has a lot of producers now. Like if I was professional, I probably thinking like that.
00:03:32:23 - 00:03:51:08
But I was always like, you know, oh man, I miss or or whatever. Like, fuck you, Todd. Like just like like what? What do I feel and how do I express that feeling? I was in the hardcore scene in the Bay area, so there was like, and in the like the evangelical, like the developing evangelical worship scene.
00:03:51:10 - 00:04:16:15
There was a premium on like the rawest emotion. Actually, not only that, it was that like moving and touching. It just it felt cool, like it looked cool. And I wanted to be like that. So there was, there was an exploration of feeling on purpose, which requires you to get out from, like, the hair, like a little bit to, like, actually be seen.
00:04:16:20 - 00:04:40:11
Yeah. Right. So it's this mix of, like, look at me. I'm gonna do something that's real at you. And what happened, that's a very tender balance trying to do that, because what happens is you start doing it. You start wanting to do the thing that they want to see more than the thing that you want, or you you believe that they're not going to want the thing that you want that you're doing.
00:04:40:13 - 00:05:05:00
So you get more insular with it, right? Lives are at least two paths that you can take. But to be a creator, you're like open hearted and open, authentic and like, it's okay. You can look at me without getting to like, fucking look at me. Yeah, because you can you can. You can feel it online there. And once you cross that, someone's like, oh, you're just showboating.
00:05:05:00 - 00:05:25:01
You're just in it for the attention or whatever else. This is no longer authentic. Ironically, like ironically for me, I was really good at both of those. Okay, some people are like, really think I'm a douchebag. Anybody who spends time with me is like, oh my God, he's not a douchebag. Yeah. You know, and I'm okay with them thinking I'm a douchebag.
00:05:25:05 - 00:05:43:02
My favorite thing is when people talk about someone who has, like, an online persona. And then they talk about hanging out with him in person and they use the word actually. Yeah. So it's like like Nick Huber. Right. Some of like your friends are insecure you know. Or is that something. Or I hear some say yeah I met Nick Huber at a conference and I actually really like him.
00:05:43:04 - 00:06:11:14
You like the weird actually. You know, like, I always use reason. I actually really like it. I used I say that actually, it's like this disconnect between how they come across in person. Yeah. Like and or like the, the human human connection that comes through versus. Yeah. Persona because that's, it's a, it's like it's something about our like something I believe is like, you know, the way that the internet work is work, the way that the internet works is through nervous systems.
00:06:11:19 - 00:06:53:11
Okay. You know, this is like you're designing a website from your billion year old nervous system to create an experience in someone else's billion year old nervous system. On the other side of a screen, it's like you're like like look on two sides of a window, right? And the reality of this, of how this nervous system, in fact, like, you walk by someone in the grocery store, this is all online and making assumptions and judgments in this, that and the other just as much as on the internet and just as much as as in this show and in the game and, and in the market, so to speak, you know, so like the nervous
00:06:53:11 - 00:07:13:15
system really matters in business stuff is something that has taken me a long time to to think about. But even from the beginning, that's why I oriented towards the feeling. When I was designing websites, it was like I just wanted to feel cool. I just wanted to be fucking interesting. I just wanted to be like, just like, hey, check this out.
00:07:13:15 - 00:07:31:11
And every time I design someone's website, I would do it in Photoshop and I would and I couldn't use Lorem ipsum. I can't be like, wow, headline is going to go here or blah blah, you know, no filler text. I would, I would write it like, here's what, here's what I would do. And every single time they used my copy throughout, right.
00:07:31:11 - 00:07:48:22
So that's where I started to realize them were writers. Yeah. And they're all of them are writers. And that's where I realized, like, okay, I've got some copywriting, right? That came from the like, you know, I was trained as a pastor. I'm like a word. I'm a poet. I like the words. I like the depths of things. And that's like, you know, you're studying scripture.
00:07:48:22 - 00:08:18:01
That's words, right? It's not pictures. You know, it's it's interesting that like, that ended up pulling through into a marketing sort of point of view. Another thing that's always been challenging for me is like, is we are marketing on the web. We're asking you to pay attention to a thing. And that took a long time. It's still sort of channeling, like, I'm doing a men's retreat this this weekend, and my girlfriend's like, you need to make a video where you just say, come to my men's retreat.
00:08:18:01 - 00:08:38:12
Yeah. Oh, like you just drag this gospel as direct as finance. It's still a little bit of a challenge to me, but that's what we're doing. We're honestly we're honestly asking for you to pay attention to this thing, but we're smuggling it in also where it's like, hey, have you ever wondered why this, that and the other? So like, I'm Chase, I help creators deal with my Brahma.
00:08:38:14 - 00:08:54:13
Here's the thing. And then, you know, you're we're like, we've got some nugget that we're trying to smuggle in. You can't just like, say, here's the point. You have to, like, juice it up a bit and then the reason why you want them to pay attention to that actually, is so they'll work with you or to buy your product or this any other.
00:08:54:15 - 00:09:12:11
It's another phase of the creator's is like, we just want people to pay attention, and then you get some attention and you're like, oh, wait, I'm broke. Like, okay, some taste. Yeah, I feel like there's so many things that are out, like learnable. If you said, Nathan, I need you to sit down and learn how to build a house, it's like, no problem.
00:09:12:11 - 00:09:34:07
Yeah, I can, I can, I can do all this. Learn to code. Yeah. Learn Photoshop, learning all these skill sets. Not a problem. Because, hey, I need you to learn how to have good taste. Yeah, yeah. When I'd be like, I don't have good, you know, like, I. Yeah, I dig it personally in some way. But there's all these creators that we talk to or or, I admire their work like, oh, man, they just have taste or musicians.
00:09:34:09 - 00:09:55:13
How do you go about developing taste? Okay, first answer is that IRA Glass quote. Right. You know, the one I'm talking about. Tell me. Oh, geez. Like, there's, there's it's it's fascinating to me that there's still a few things from the early days of the internet that are just as relevant. Yeah. You know, like Gary Vee at Web 2.0 conference or whatever.
00:09:55:14 - 00:10:16:18
It's like, you could you could watch that today. And it was like 15, 20 years ago. It's just as relevant, right? This IRA Glass quote of him talking about taste. When you first start making things, it's disappointing because your taste is higher than your capabilities. But as you keep going, you're like, your taste is up here and your capabilities are down here as you make things.
00:10:16:20 - 00:10:36:07
This is what my answer is as you make things, you this as you become the man in the arena, right? As you're actually not like going like I would do that differently or blah blah blah blah blah as you're actually making things. That's how it that's how it gets better to make things and put them out. You have to confront a lot of psychological material.
00:10:36:09 - 00:10:52:16
That is, let's just put it that way. Yeah. You have to confront a lot, namely your fear of rejection. Right? Which is what like, wanted to take me out for forever. And then I figured out how to do a personality that was like, I really don't care. And then it's like, you know, it catches up with you over time.
00:10:52:18 - 00:11:11:12
But there is a way where you can honestly open hearted, step into creating and making things. And even though you're afraid that you're not going to get the views, you're going to feel the rejection and all this other stuff, like, that's why we stay out of the game. That's why we stay out. It's also why we sabotage ourselves.
00:11:11:14 - 00:11:36:14
So all of this like tricky psychological material, is very much at play in creative business. Even though it sounds like I just make a blog or whatever. It's like, all of this is what I realize now and what I've helped some clients with is like, this is you actually are you are determined not to be seen. You like, want to prove it to you or to yourself that you don't want to, that you're not good enough for it.
00:11:36:16 - 00:11:58:19
We got to work through some of that so that you can step out in ways where you can see the risk that's taken for you. Right? You know? Yeah. I'm thinking about what you're saying about taste and the IRA Glass quote of you basically put in the wraps. Yeah. And you know, the frustrating part of creation is the gap between what you think you should be able to create what you want to create with what you have.
00:11:58:19 - 00:12:16:06
The skill set for some of that helped me a lot, is just directly copying other people's work. Totally like going into when I was learning Photoshop, I would pull up a website or a graphic design or something else and say, I'm going to recreate this pixel perfect. And to try to understand what are the techniques that you literally did that.
00:12:16:06 - 00:12:32:23
Oh yeah. Oh wow. Because you would go through and I didn't know that was a technique. Yeah. Years later, I've heard like Sam Palmer and other people talk about copy work where they do that with great writing, where they will actually pull up, you know, Ernest Hemingway or whoever they. I just start typing along and actually handwrite it.
00:12:32:23 - 00:12:54:10
Yeah. Wow. To get, like, the connection to your brain. Yeah. And so there's one aspect of that where if you don't know what to make. Yeah, go make something that's an exact copy of someone else's and you're like, internalize those, build those skills with you there. Yeah. Remember what you're about to say because the time to copy something and do that right.
00:12:54:12 - 00:13:14:15
That is like sacred in today's day and age. The Nathan the younger Nathan Barry going like, I'm going to I'm going to actually just make this, I'm going to fuck around with this and make this. That is that's the element that like, that's how you build taste is have that time, you know, tend to try something so specifically to copy something.
00:13:14:20 - 00:13:36:23
But also just that time alone is like I'm putting a pin in that for people to like double click this idea that you, you got to slow down enough to actually start copying someone. And I'm sitting here and so are you saying like, oh, I'm glad I did that. Like, right. That's valuable. Yeah. You know, well and so basically carving it like first the intention of saying, hey, I want to develop taste.
00:13:37:01 - 00:13:52:16
And so then I'm going to see, okay, who's whose taste do I like, whom I like let me curate all of my inspiration sources. And it could be across a bunch of things. Right. There might be. All right, a YouTuber that you love or, you know, musicians, whoever else. Right. Like some of the best storytellers or musicians.
00:13:52:17 - 00:14:13:18
And so you pull from all these different sources and then say, okay, now I might I have the intention, I had the inspiration, and now I'm going to set aside the time and take that and say, okay, for an hour a day, two hours a day. I'm going to learn this thing. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think what's so sacred about that is your interest is actually an authentic development of your own voice in your own soul.
00:14:13:18 - 00:14:30:00
That's what you're interested in. We want to be seen. We want we want to make the money. Like doing something that's authentic to us. That would be killer. That was always the dream, right? I was always going to have my career come out of who I am. Why? Because I'm just a very bad employee. Like, yeah, I'm not good at it.
00:14:30:02 - 00:14:55:23
But it's it's honestly of like a kind of a sacred exploration to be a songwriter, to be, a writer to be. And I don't want to, like, make it sound too highfalutin or whatever, but that pathway of scratching your own itch, discovering what's interesting to you, figuring out how to pull this thought through to completion in a blog post or an email newsletter, or a YouTube video.
00:14:56:01 - 00:15:20:17
Figuring out how to press record, like and and ramble and just, you know, improvise. Which is how I got started. And like, I was interested in and and some sort of a deeper connection to myself and I wanted to see if anybody wanted to have that kind of connection with me too. Right. So for me personally, this was very much like, a soulful exploration beyond just can I do it?
00:15:20:17 - 00:15:36:15
Because that was in there too. Can I make a website like this? Could I know how to figure out how to like, light and do camera stuff? Could I perform the camera like was nobody else in the studio? Could I make a song and like an and all this goes way, way, way back to like high school where it's like, yeah, could I record something?
00:15:36:15 - 00:15:53:22
Could I write something and record it on my laptop, my gateway, like 6500 or whatever it was? You know, something so unique about being a creator is the wide range of skills, like, you don't actually get to specialize. You have to do all these different things, especially, you know, you don't have a team early on. You don't have any of this.
00:15:54:00 - 00:16:11:10
And so it's something I've always admired about you is you're just like, you dive in, you'll learn anything, whether it's design code on camera work, like how do you think about tackling each one of these? Was it deliberate or are you just you have something you want to make and you're like, I, I just decided to make it in.
00:16:11:10 - 00:16:32:15
The first version was terrible and the second version was a little better. I'm laughing because I'm like, well, first of all, what you really need is as a as a deep sense of insecurity. And step one. Step one is like, be concerned about if you're lovable. But that's like, there was a drive. There was just a drive.
00:16:32:17 - 00:16:53:01
There was, a sensitivity and attunement. Like I would watch pastors on stage or watch musicians at shows. I would watch movies like actors in movies, or eventually learn to see the director and the filmmaker and the writer in the movie. And, and I would connect to these people as auteurs, as creator, as like a point of view.
00:16:53:01 - 00:17:13:15
It's like still in the age of AI, the moment you get that sniff that, it's like, oh, this feels like it's a song and generated, right? You notice that? Yeah. It's like that uncanny valley feeling where it's like, oh, it just has this, this author just asked a rhetorical question and then answered it immediately later or said, it's not this, it's that you don't hear like, it's hard.
00:17:13:15 - 00:17:35:01
Or even though, like, chat's pretty fucking good at those little like, juxtapositions, I'm like, actually, that's brilliant. I should use that. But there's something about it that just feels, personable, that feels like it's not coming from an actual person, a point of view. And I don't mean there needs to be a human, I just mean I want someone's perspective, a lived experience, and something like that.
00:17:35:03 - 00:18:04:14
And because I had those sensitivities and was so curious, about those, I guess, forms of media or creativity, but because I connected with the filmmaker in the film and the musician in the song, or the songwriter in the song, I just wanted that. I wanted to be that, same thing with, like when I was designing those websites, like I was with Corbett Bar, who we partnered in fizzle and he did think traffic before that there was like a personality in the writing.
00:18:04:16 - 00:18:39:17
There was a sense of of him in there, and I just wanted to create something where that was like coming through, especially with Pat Flynn. When I did his site, there was like this, like real California old license plate kind of vibe that we were going for. And Steve came at Nerd Fitness versus like comic books and, you know, Lego characters and, and stuff like that, where it was somehow trying to trying to take some of these elements because I had to limit myself creatively, but then to pull that through in a way that wasn't cheesy.
00:18:39:19 - 00:19:01:14
And then, you know, and there was very specifics in the web design, right, where it's like, okay, golden ratio on my type. And, so it's not this wide that my line height needs to be lessened, like, you know, and like learning the hand code websites by like percentages and, and M's instead of pixels and stuff so that they're responsive and all that jazz, all of that I still love.
00:19:01:14 - 00:19:19:01
I had once when CEO Guy tell me when I was, when I was working for Moses marketing department and he was like, Jess, you fall in love with the technology. It makes you both the best and worst sales guy ever. Yeah, you're never going to be my solo sales guy, but like, I like you in the room kind of thing.
00:19:19:03 - 00:19:38:18
So fall in love with the technology of fall in love with. Like, I see the beauty in HTML, CSS and try and make it as concise as possible. For some reason I went from being a musician to also. That's beautiful, right? I had a drive to learn some of this stuff. So like if I'm trying to teach someone how to do that, I'm.
00:19:38:18 - 00:20:00:23
Do I want to help? I want to explore where their interest is. Right now. It was just a it was an interest. It was a need to be seen. It was a need to be a craftsman. And so for some reason, that was up for me. For some reason, you coding that website or like, you know, photoshopping it just like making a pixel perfect, like why?
00:20:01:01 - 00:20:21:04
Like, right. How do you explain that there's just a, there's something you wanted to learn how to do, you know, and I feel like right now a lot of people are shying away from learning a skill set because they they've had their identity around whatever previous job they had before they became a creator. Something else. Right? Yeah, I, I am a, filmmaker, an editor.
00:20:21:04 - 00:20:37:10
So I won't I won't go on camera. Right. I am a behind, behind the screen, behind the lens, type person. Yeah. Or another angle. Like I'm a developer. Yeah. So, of course it doesn't look good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Why would you expect me to make you look good? Like, you know, the code behind the scenes is perfect.
00:20:37:12 - 00:20:54:05
Yeah. And what I'm trying to get to with you, that you're probably the person who, of my friends, who embodies this, the most is the obsession with learning every part of the craft. And not even, you don't seem scared of it at all. You know, I could learn video editing, but I don't want to. That's gonna be hard.
00:20:54:05 - 00:21:11:05
Like there's no way you just dive in and you just do it. It's not like. Is that like a multi-week process is that you're spending months? Are you like it? What makes you say, hey, I don't have that skill set, and I'd like to. And so, yeah, from now I will. I guess the first thought that comes up is, is there's plenty of stuff that I don't decide to learn.
00:21:11:09 - 00:21:30:07
Okay. Not like consciously. I just like there's there's no interesting there's like no light over there. Yeah. I can't even see it. Does anything come to mind that that you're like, oh, I, I've thought about learning that and I a great question. Yeah. Like, becoming a shaman. Okay. Yeah. I was like I was like, maybe I'm going to become a shaman.
00:21:30:07 - 00:21:48:13
And then I'm like, I don't know if I have the ancestors for this. Like, it was just like that then takes me to far away and just takes me too far away. Is there an there an endless number of things on this earth to learn? Yes. And all of that information is at your fingertips. Yeah. You know, like maybe 50 years ago.
00:21:48:13 - 00:22:05:12
You know, like, I want to be like, okay, you're going to have to move countries. You're going to, you know, all of the stuff. Now you're like, oh, I yeah, connect with anyone. I got it right here. And so you so being deliberate about here's what I want to pursue and here's what I do. Yeah it's it's really it's that Liz Gilbert thing about don't don't follow your passion.
00:22:05:12 - 00:22:28:00
Follow your curiosity. For all your curiosity, what's the difference to you between those two things? Okay. Passion is like a thing I'm supposed to be eventually, like, I like, I'm passionate about this. And it's like, remember, you are so passionate about gymnastics in high school, right? It's like, yeah, but curiosity, there's no pressure on curiosity. There's an alleviate.
00:22:28:00 - 00:22:49:12
Some of it's a subtle it might be the same exact thing and all when it's all said and done. But for me, like way finding from where I am right now, my passion is like I'm looking backwards to what I've been passionate about. My curiosity is I'm right here looking at like we're what's alive right now. So there's something about personal interest that's always been important.
00:22:49:15 - 00:23:32:00
Not to say, you know, that person, that interest doesn't dip, right? Sometimes. Sometimes I have enough wherewithal that like this is going to be important sort of past the dip. And you just you stick with it. There's something about your curiosity and your personal interest. There's also something about sensing that there's greatness out there, like, if I was stepping into something where I didn't already and sniffed out some of the greats because web design, I kind of I saw some greats, like, while they were doing something frickin different, like, oh, there's artists out here with filmmakers with, you know, YouTubers with frickin obviously musicians and, and shamans and things like this.
00:23:32:02 - 00:23:50:20
You can sniff out some of the greats, you have an experience with them and you're like, oh, there's something that can be devotional and beautiful about this, because ultimately I think that's where I had to get is it has to be for me. I, I'm, I'm the one who's going to give me the love that I need, actually, first and foremost.
00:23:51:00 - 00:24:14:14
Second of all, like, if I'm in, if I can make this a labor of love because I believe it's important and make my own contribution to the the field of this thing meaningful as a gift to myself, as, like, already meaningful. Then all of the views and all of the comments and all the love and all of this and the other is a benefit, you know?
00:24:14:16 - 00:24:38:18
But like burnout is what happens when we need when leaning over our skis or leaning forward. And we need that more because they can come. This is a curse is when it comes because people don't have any idea of how long this game actually is and what it's like to be a fucking winner for for like years, even.
00:24:38:20 - 00:25:03:17
But to watch a year for like, it's been trickling down for like a year and you just see it on these people's faces, you know, it's just like the, it's a real it's a, it's a real. You're getting squeezed out because you're not aligned or in some way or, or what got you there won't get it, got you here, won't get you there kind of thing or it's a longer game to be doing this professionally.
00:25:03:17 - 00:25:24:14
So I'm like, I want to make a clear distinction between doing this professionally as a living right and being an honest like in honest pursuit of your craft, your your exploration, your creativity, your artistry. Because you don't need to make any money from any of this stuff, you know? And it's a hard thing now because you can make money from anything.
00:25:24:14 - 00:25:51:11
Yeah. Then there's the temptation of like, yeah, oh, I like this. I'm getting traction with it. I should make money from it. There's some old Buddhist precept. I promise to abstain from exploiting my passion. You know, it's like, okay, that interesting? I promise to abstain from exploiting my passions. It's like. Because why? Because there's something beautiful, sacred, holy and true in there.
00:25:51:13 - 00:26:13:21
And like a huckster, we can sell ourselves out on the market and end up 1015. You don't know how long life is, you know, ten, 15 years down the road, having sucked that, like, sacred stuff out of you and you're in you're kind of you're kind of a husk. You can build it all back. Right. But but again, to what got you here won't get you there.
00:26:14:02 - 00:26:33:04
Sort of saying it can feel really devastating. And to to be that humbled and to come back to yourself. I've seen it happen again and again. I've experienced it. But like so there's there's a way through it, but like, you know, lives it lives in her Liz Gilbert thing. Life is long and chases young. There's plenty of time.
00:26:33:04 - 00:26:54:21
I'll be saying that when I'm 65, 78. Like it's this idea that like, creative work is a very long term frickin exploration. And to do it in the marketplace of, you know, social media is bonkers. So I'm just like letting people know, like, it's bonkers. Okay? It takes a lot. It takes a lot. It might take everything, but it's also beautiful.
00:26:54:23 - 00:27:17:14
It's also very beautiful and I'm grateful for it. I'm still surviving, and I was a precious little snowflake. Let me just tell you, okay? It is delicate in here. But I have learned. I've learned. And you can tell I love any time we get a straight to camera like delivery to watch. And you do this so you can know that that was a speech into yourself, it's the eye contact that really matters.
00:27:17:14 - 00:27:36:02
That's. You talk about something I learned on YouTube. You can literally look into the camera like, I would do this for hours by myself. Everything I've done on YouTube is by myself with a frigging camera that I'm pushing record on and setting up all the lights. And I would just like, feel like there's a human there. And I would go from that place, I would connect to, to that place.
00:27:36:07 - 00:27:51:23
Then different words come and I find that that is like a really important part of, like when I slow down enough to do that, as I'm doing it now, now I can I will look away. And some people are like, this is fucking awkward. And I'm just like, no, this is connection. Like, you don't know, but I know we can do one.
00:27:51:23 - 00:28:09:16
Too many like this and like, I see you. You're good, I love you. Everything's going to be okay, but it's going to take a little work. That's something that I learned from Levi Allen, who's a great filmmaker. He's awesome. He loves Levi. You know, also a very talented, prolific. Like, we'll learn any skill. The he always starts his video with.
00:28:09:16 - 00:28:32:18
Hey, friend. Yeah. Like, right. Hey, friend. Yeah. You know, right into the camera. It's not friends. Hey, everybody. So excited to see you. All right, everyone gather here. You know, it's just like you and me. We're just. We're just connecting. And it's that same idea of, you know, right to one person. Yeah, yeah, that that connection. Yeah. Something else that I hear you saying.
00:28:32:20 - 00:28:56:01
Yeah. Yeah. Like like a bad dad. We got it in like a bad dad. The internet rewards performance. Okay, so meaning, like you're getting this external validation for a performative, like, aspect of yourself and someone like me, you know, as a kid, I score the goal, and. Yeah. And you feel celebrated, not the work. Yes. And you feel like.
00:28:56:06 - 00:29:20:21
Like there's more love now. It's not just. And you didn't score the goal the next day. And there's not that love. It's conditional. The internet is extremely conditional that way, this moment. So, I very, good job. I mean, fastest growing sport in America. Great sport. He picked that, he can now destroy me at. Really? Oh, and how old's your oldest?
00:29:21:03 - 00:29:34:04
He's 14. Okay, so we, I came home last night from, people's professional football. You know, their big tournament. So he's playing.
00:29:34:06 - 00:30:08:10
Wow. The seeded. They're playing. History. And, they were winning the game, and I can't see that. It's a struggle. It's all part of who's like, I'm standing near his dad because it's just like a small corner. Because I'm. And you just see the first, easy answers that, like, give me something. Yeah, yeah. It was so frustrating.
00:30:08:12 - 00:30:34:19
Yeah. Like, you could just watch it play and, like. Yeah. It's just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a bad dad. Like a bad dad show up. There was none of you like it? Yeah. Outcome. Yeah. Yeah, right. It was your disappointment. Yeah. For 1415 year old like needed the exact opposite which is hard. It's hard. Like by the way I've been that dad.
00:30:34:19 - 00:30:54:05
More eye contact I've been that dad. You know, like, my dad has been that dad at moments, you know, not all the time, but some of the time, like, we do it, we do it, we get excited, we get we lose the connection. We lose track of our purpose. So first of all, that second of all, the internet isn't a human, but it's made out of humans.
00:30:54:05 - 00:31:24:14
Right back to that nervous system idea. And you will get feedback that you are good and wanted and loved and it will nourish it will like feed that part of it, use it to fuel, to create the next piece of content or whatever else. There is always, however, a danger and being externally motivated externally validation, external validation is terrific, but unless you learn how to pull that inside and then start to be internally motivated, the to the therapist, right?
00:31:24:15 - 00:31:43:03
That and according to my experience as a creator, right. That is what we're looking for. Because otherwise you're on the cycle of of boom and bust and boom and bust and boom and bust, which is fine. So it's one way to like, squeeze out the dopamine and serotonin from a nervous system, and then you're going to get all the cortisol and shit flooded.
00:31:43:03 - 00:31:59:01
A lot of great artists whose work we incredibly admire. Yeah. Have ridden that cycle. Yes. And, you know, it's a lot of times where you say like, oh, I won the outcome. Yeah, I won the outcomes that they created. But you don't want to beat them. Yeah. That's like that Jeff Goins book. Like real artists don't starve,
00:31:59:03 - 00:32:25:21
Right. What if there's a way to be a real artist that has the longevity of a kind of like, neutral growth of, of equanimity, right? Instead of this boom and bust, which I'm a very passionate romantic person. Like, I still have those booms and busts in in ways. But like, I can tell when I'm on the depressive side, like, I can go like, okay, we're in the depressive side, like, this is and I can and I can come at it with less judgment or no judgment.
00:32:25:23 - 00:32:43:20
And when I'm on the frickin manic side, I'm gonna be like, I'm pretty sure we're a little bit higher than we should be. Like, I like, like, I like, I'm not used to feeling this good down. I'm like, I don't trust this. Right. Upper limits click and right. But, that external validation from the internet is a real thing.
00:32:43:22 - 00:33:02:04
And it's possible. And it takes so much work to get there and just get that fucking little hit back that you've really done something, you've accomplished something. But like, for some reason, I'm thinking about this, I'm just going to say it's this weird medicine metaphor. There's this thing in meditative yoga experience called a Kundalini awakening. Just go with it for a second.
00:33:02:05 - 00:33:29:21
Kundalini way. Kundalini is strong. Energy lives at the base of the spine and you want to wake it up. So it comes up. One time I, I had a spontaneous Kundalini awakening and I couldn't, sleep for three weeks. And my one mentor at the time was like, shut it down. Spent time a large body of water, eat red meat, watch daytime television, do anything that was shut down and bring your energy down because the Kundalini meltdown will set you back years.
00:33:29:23 - 00:33:50:04
And, it's like that. I couldn't ground it. I had got new access to my, like, internal system, but I couldn't ground it. I would lie down at sleep and it would be like fireworks in my body, the most pleasurable, like amazing. I felt like I had attained something, so to shut it down felt so sad. But I was getting crazy without sleep.
00:33:50:06 - 00:34:05:20
You knew that it was going to crash what you meant. You're basically saying like, yeah, if you don't regulate this somewhere, you're going to crash incredibly hard. So it's that's the metaphor is coming to mind for like the internet, you worked so hard to get that pop as a go. Something went viral. We're starting to grow. We're seeing the results.
00:34:05:22 - 00:34:23:01
Okay. If you can't ground it like literally a tree root, tree roots go down, tree branches going up, reaching for sunlight, reaching down for the water and the soil. If you need both of these, and just like this is the tantra of it, you need both of these because then you're going to be able to sustain the growth.
00:34:23:06 - 00:34:51:16
And that's what we want. Again, if we're thinking really long term with this thing, which is which is what we're going to need to do, I don't know how many creators have gone so big that they're that they're done in a few years, and then they can just kind of cash out like maybe people have started email marketing companies, but like the rest of us, silly little TikTokers and YouTubers and people who are who are basically hobbyists creating something that now we're professionals in, it's like, how do we do this over a long period of time?
00:34:51:16 - 00:35:22:04
There's absolutely a way, and your audience changes with you over time. And like, there's just there's stages to the game. Also. Congratulations. You got that pop. Like you saw some saw some traction. I don't know if I ever really saw the traction. My whole thing has been like this. Yeah. The entire time we launched fizzle, it was like to the to the, think traffic audience where like, right there 2000 members and we just frickin every we were constantly right podcast 10,000 listeners.
00:35:22:04 - 00:35:48:16
Right the whole time there. Yeah. Little bit of fluctuation. So my YouTube channel just been like burned. So I'm kind of I'm being taught this like long term thing and it feels and I believe I believe in it at least now because I'm doing it. And I've been successfully paying for like my kids, my life, like all this stuff for like years now, for over a decade, like 15 years almost.
00:35:48:16 - 00:36:08:22
I mean, it was before that with fizzle for so long, but like, I've been ten years on my own with just being a fucking YouTuber. Yeah. You know, so yeah, it's it's the longevity. What what contributes to being able to have that longevity and to actually if you were saying, okay, I am coaching or mentoring a creator. Yeah.
00:36:09:00 - 00:36:29:12
Who their their tree is a creator is growing tall. Yeah. And you're starting to worry that maybe their roots aren't matching it. Yeah. How would you coach or mentor them on the question? Okay. So the roots, if it's if I'm really seeing a deficiency in the roots. Yeah. Then it's like okay, we're going to go deeper into some deeper work to do some actual like depth work.
00:36:29:12 - 00:36:51:00
We're gonna get into our feelings. We're going to like do do amends weekend if it's if it's a male or like whatever, some sort of if you're in a relationship, we're gonna get deeper and relationship stuff where understand how to tell some truth to each other, understand what we're co-creating in life. Like there's that that's the grounding out into our domains of ownership is like where our roots go.
00:36:51:02 - 00:37:10:00
Are there specific questions that you like or that, you know, you'd assign someone to journal? The question kind of comes from the person, right? But it's like, yeah, we're probably going to be exploring, you know, stuff around mom and dad, right? This is like, we're probably going to be exploring stuff around where do I feel performative in my life?
00:37:10:02 - 00:37:25:12
And just kind of getting a little sense of that. And we're going to be definitely doing like somatic likes, just sort of stuff in our body, literally down in our body, like our back of our back, down the the down the back of our legs, to the back of our heels. That's the thing that opened in me in this Kundalini awakening.
00:37:25:15 - 00:38:00:17
Okay? I never I was like, I wasn't there, I just didn't have I would be building some internal awareness there. Lower belly right the bottom of the heart, the bottom of the brain. Feeling the weight of the brain, the head actually resting on the neck. All this grounding sort of stuff, okay, is like, it sounds goofy, but it really it starts to open our field of awareness to like to what is what is good in this thing without me getting all hyped up, without getting taken away and losing myself in the dream of the success of it.
00:38:00:17 - 00:38:17:16
Because without it. Another thing to like how we're going to be successful over long term is going to be partnerships and partnerships. In order for those to succeed when you can't be flaky and you're going to have to like, like sort of thin on the bottom of the surfboard is what keeps you, like going in the same direction you have.
00:38:17:17 - 00:38:37:16
You have to develop that thin. And so when you when a potential client comes in or an opportunity comes in and you've got a little bit of like, but it's a good opportunity. Like there's an extra zero there. It's like that, like we want to slow down and notice that because it's going to feel like there's momentum and we got to go with it.
00:38:37:18 - 00:38:55:07
Knowing that you're a genius, like your nervous system is literally a genius. And it's and like, if you step into it, it's going to be learning in that, feeling and doing that consciously as opposed to just like, but that's what we gotta do. This is what we're about, right? We gotta go all the fucking way.
00:38:55:07 - 00:39:23:12
Turn the hat backwards, click send. Right, and then you're going, great, you're on the ride. There's going to be some learning. You're going to get some stuff out of it. But like, long term, what makes these things work is your brand deals, your partnerships on those kinds of sides. They matter a lot. They do. And so not being flaky, but also they can tell like like any like you can tell when someone's coming at you with an opportunity or energy or they're asking you to do something for them.
00:39:23:12 - 00:39:45:12
You're like, I don't want to do that, right? Right. You're building an ecosystem of partnership. That's what's going to sustain you over a long period of time. What I can think of, of actually quite a few people who I really admire them as humans, I admire their work, all of that. If they were to pitch me on doing something together, I would probably say no because I feel like they don't have that thin on their support.
00:39:45:12 - 00:40:02:05
Yeah, that they're going to be on to the next thing or they don't have the stability to follow through. Yeah. Or that sort of thing. And so I like that where you're saying, hey, how reliable are you? We're talking about building skills early. Yeah. Have you built the skill, the muscle, the discipline to stay consistent and to follow through?
00:40:02:05 - 00:40:17:17
Which part of that is the perspective that we're going to be here for a while. And these are the other plants in the environment like these thrive. We thrive the like there's the ecosystem, right. That perspective, and I take it that took me a long time to grow that because it was just like me, me, me, my, my, my.
00:40:17:18 - 00:40:33:20
And that's the difference between thinking, you know, 3 to 6 months out versus like 3 to 6 years or less. I think where you like, look, it's one element of it. It's one element of it. Right. There's other parts of it that are related specifically to you, like, who am I? You don't know who you're gonna be in three years.
00:40:33:22 - 00:40:50:20
You don't know how you were 3 to 3 years ago. You wouldn't recognize yourself. In some ways, that IRA Glass. Yeah. About taste. Now your taste is at a different level. So it's a mystery. It's an exploration. That's why this is soul work goes why I like it so much. You know, especially as a creator. Like God's the creator, right?
00:40:50:20 - 00:41:23:14
Like, think about that word. Like you're making some shit. This, this element of who you're going to be and what your interests are going to align with, and the fact that that's like, we can we can have some sense of it. And also it's like as a function of your age, like hormonally if you're not, if you're a man at like 43, like, I'm like, I know right where you are, if you're 35, it's like, okay, I know right now I like and you might not have much of a fan yet, you're kind of squirrely because that's what you're supposed to be learning right now, because pretty soon that skin is going to
00:41:23:14 - 00:41:39:09
develop and you're gonna go like, oh fuck yeah, I want to go this way, and I want to take them with me. And yeah, this is what we're doing. And then, like other people are like, I want in. And you're like, I don't know, I haven't even thought about, you know, and you're like, things kind of emerge and develop over time.
00:41:39:09 - 00:42:07:12
But developing purpose in someone is, you can't rush it. It's like a function of our hormones. As men, as we age, like, the estrogen goes up a little bit more that, like, makes us a little more caretaking, you know? But we also got to navigate the testosterone, you know, women with perimenopause and all that. Like there's, there's, like, our hormones is one of the things that that like we can be a little bit intelligent about because yeah 26 young 30s.
00:42:07:13 - 00:42:25:09
Yeah. It does go nuts. Do go crazy. Try stuff out. Right. And notice when if you can slow down enough to notice when the hits kind of hurt or to like be like, oh, maybe I'm not as invincible as I think I am. Is that line in that pony very song at once I knew I was not magnificent, right?
00:42:25:09 - 00:42:55:10
That's like, that's 39. Yeah. You know, it's a long game. It's a long game. I have no idea. Now I'm so glad that what I've built is able to a be authentic to me. I can roll with it, I can change it, shift it, flow with it, be I have partnerships. And in these brands and other creators like that feel like soulful and good to me, that feel aligned and see I can.
00:42:55:12 - 00:43:18:17
I don't know exactly what the future is, but I can feel the direction of it. That is holy. That's great. Most of my life I have been a fucking scared kid trying to get to the next paycheck, right? Just like not feeling like I have done it yet. Not feeling I have done it yet and I still haven't done it, but I like I'm doing it more right.
00:43:18:19 - 00:43:38:00
That is a fucking awesome place to be. I'm so glad for it. Yeah, so something that I've watched in your career and, and then I've heard you talk about is this idea of becoming known for something on a pretty big scale. That's not your deepest work. Yeah, right. And you're talking about the emotional connection to the work. Yeah.
00:43:38:02 - 00:44:02:02
Maybe things that drive depression or the, like, the downs cycle. What did that look like for you and your journey? And then how did you come through it? Yeah. This it's great. It's like. Yeah, it's, I've always had two skis going, all right. And one of them. So like, bigger audience, public facing, figuring out how to make money from that one.
00:44:02:04 - 00:44:20:19
This is like the thing that they want, you know, me know about ikigai. Yes. What what? You're great at what the world needs, and you can fucking make me. I don't know, whatever I remember the other one is now, but it's like, this is what the world needs and what they're wanting from me. And then there's the other ski, which which is something more.
00:44:20:19 - 00:44:39:21
It's like this. I keep using the word soulful, but it's like my authentic flow is, it's I was a I was I got really into Christianity. I, my, one of my family was Christians. I just was like interested and curious. I think I just wanted more hugs, you know, or something. And then it ended up becoming like an identity.
00:44:39:21 - 00:45:01:00
And I became professional and I became like, trained as a pastor, was like a successful worship leader, pastor guy for a long time. And then my wife at the time and I were like, you know, after starting churches, like, I think we're not going to do this anymore. She like, I was literally taking a crap. And she leaned in and was like, I don't think I will go to do this thing with the God who's got the whole thing anymore.
00:45:01:00 - 00:45:30:06
And I was like, all right. But my first thought was, all right, father, we'll see where this goes. My first thought was a prayer, my first. And and ever since then, it's still been an authentic exploration of spirituality, the soulful, deeper work, all the things that can't help but come out from me in here about the longevity of the roots going down and up, the sacredness of our nervous systems, and the fact that, like, the more you get aligned with the fact with your nervous system, the more of a chance you can put another nervous system into resonance with you.
00:45:30:11 - 00:46:02:03
Because, like, we're so susceptible to this, like we're just billions of years old, it's just billions of years old. So that second ski has always been in this like soulful, deeper sort of side of things, this curious, honest, like cosmic explorer, curious like thing. And I have never quite felt like, like ready to start just offering that until recently, I started making more offerings and then hosting these retreats.
00:46:02:03 - 00:46:23:03
Right now it's just men's work and we're doing more client work. I've been training and coaching for like 15 years, like from seminaries and like Dan, who I was with here yesterday, did his coaching thing. And it's like also starting to make those offers. And the thing that I've been like learning passionately over a long period of time, starting to put those things out.
00:46:23:05 - 00:46:46:17
I'm surprised how much of me it brought back into my work, because as a provider and a caretaker, that other ski where the money's already coming in like that's where I'm like, I'm scared. I want to make sure that that's going and and but as like, soulful guy. I'm like, dude, I'm scared because I like, I'm going to burnout.
00:46:46:17 - 00:47:05:10
I'm like, I'm becoming a husk. And I'm like, it is. That is, you're like diving in and teaching business content and all these courses and like, yeah, what was the thing that you were successful at? And not even that I was the pastor of that community, okay? I was a pastor and I was a motivational speaker. Right.
00:47:05:10 - 00:47:32:03
I would take the we would develop the content, I would perform it into a, into a course, we would do the coaching calls and it was an energy of like, you know, I live in a van down by the river, like let's go. It's like I'm getting you fired up, right? Yeah. And take like, because when you're starting something from scratch, you live in frickin Indiana and you don't have that many close friends, but you, like, started paying attention to some blogs, and you took a chance.
00:47:32:03 - 00:47:54:21
And, like, now you're paying $50 a month to be a part of this community. It's like, I want to start a blog on this thing. It's like, man, just you need some firepower. You need like, yeah, help. Like, Diana needs a little juice. Right? Diana now has this very successful photography blog, but like, that motivational speaker plus pastoral elements.
00:47:54:23 - 00:48:19:15
And then I was just a teacher. I've always been a great teacher. I can synthesize information really quick. I can I can put stuff together. I can find what's interesting. I can also go up on rabbit trails, as you can see. But like the but the the like performance of information is is not too challenging for me. And also the development of it, like the first very first course we did at fizzle was called Defining Your Audience.
00:48:19:17 - 00:48:38:18
And I was just me was just like, go make it, because I was the web designer who before I would design a website, I would go read every comment on the website. Right? I read every single comment because I was like, who are these people? Less my version of deep research because like, I'm just like, who are they know it's most of the time see a little avatar and like this is the gist.
00:48:38:18 - 00:48:54:16
I didn't I didn't read any of the article. I was just like, what's this? Where are they coming from? Because when people are commenting, they're like, look at me. Look at me. Like, here's something I realized, that's good about you. That's what that's about me, right? Everything's about them. The articles that were writing, it's about them, right? The videos that I make, it's like.
00:48:54:18 - 00:49:13:17
It's like it's about them. Actually, they're the ones. It's like back to Donald Miller thing where it's like they're the ones who are the hero. You're the Yoda, you're not the Luke Skywalker. You have to become the Luke Skywalker in your own life to, like, take a chance and do something. The main character energy. But then when you're making something, you're the guide.
00:49:13:19 - 00:49:34:07
You're the guide in the hero's journey, right? That was fast. And that was like one of the pieces in this defining your audience thing, where it's like an an actual perspective of service to understand who these people are, what they're struggling with, because nobody on the frickin internet is going to love you the way that your mom did, or at least was supposed to.
00:49:34:09 - 00:49:57:10
Okay, like, they don't care. You're still needing that. And that's holy and sacred and let's talk about it. But like what they're interested in, if you want to be a successful creator, is you have to get interested in what they're interested in. You have to identify or understand what their need and their journey is. And chances are, if you're building an audience around your persona, it's the same need that you had, right?
00:49:57:10 - 00:50:16:19
Where like the place where you're the most valuable to someone is right on top of the spot that cost you the most to learn about right? I don't know, does that answer questions? Yeah. I mean, there's a quote that came to mind. This is from Phil McKernan, where he says your greatest gift is next to your deepest wound.
00:50:16:20 - 00:50:44:05
And, always think about that, you know, that's in like, a very soulful, like, do all the work through your pain and trauma and use that to impact the world. But you can also apply it in a way, going back to the curiosity of, in a very tactical skill based way where you say, hey, what's the thing that I struggled with the most, you know, as I was learning these skills or learning business or learning about any of these other things, and then be like, oh, that's what I can teach, you know?
00:50:44:10 - 00:51:07:01
Or they say if you're teaching something like, go back to the the painful time that you learn that lesson. Yeah. And and if you share that, people will automatically trust you more. They're in because they're like, oh, that's okay. When even if there's a simple thing that ultimately doesn't matter, like the time that you were learning to write client proposals and you did it wrong and it cost you a $5,000 web design gig, right?
00:51:07:02 - 00:51:25:03
You know, and so now you learn to do it this way. And now I'm teaching you the same thing, right. It's I trust. So like authoritative actually ironically again these are billion year old nervous systems and stuff like that. That makes so much sense on that level. But might not it might not make sense from like, the things we've been trained to try to do.
00:51:25:05 - 00:51:50:06
The thing that makes me think of is you going back to the the musician and the songwriter and like, then it was like almost like if status in that world of like with the authentic connection. And so what I'm actually truly feel like. Yeah. And I think that's true now in the creator world. Yeah. Of like not only do people see, oh, you're being real and they connect with you, but the and they're more likely to, you know, like and trust you.
00:51:50:06 - 00:52:11:07
But they'll share a more too. Or like, oh this is someone who is sharing from like a like something that's deeply personal. So yeah, there's a, there's a lot of videos that I've done where I just had a little extra energy. Yeah. And I had these like songs as intros some somewhere incredible. It's amazing. You with extra energy.
00:52:11:10 - 00:52:31:20
There is some like little vlog I did, for a trip to Bozeman when I was working with a company up there packed. And, I did an intro about Bozeman because I fell in love with Bozeman. Yeah, I was just like, oh my God, I love. This is before I saw Yellowstone and all that other stuff. Okay, now I'm a huge Taylor Sheridan fan, as you can see from my Western shirt.
00:52:31:20 - 00:52:53:20
But like, I'm just trying to get I'm just trying to get like extra status in some Sheridan production land. Man season three. But the the intro that I made for that video is so fucking good. I still to this day have a buddy, Jesse Elder, who introduces me when he introduced me to somebody is like, here, watch this.
00:52:53:21 - 00:53:16:07
Like you're in person together. We're in. This is this is chasing me. Actually. Now it's so good. Jason. Anybody know someone at the at the Bozeman frickin travel sort of world? Please, we need to. We need that. Our is in one of those partners. I'm trying to build one of those, for sure, but I've built a lot of songs with raps and, lyrics that, like, are so much fun.
00:53:16:09 - 00:53:39:21
It's so much fun to do to just, like, pull that out. And I kind of crush, and then I just drop it and walk away over here to this city that's like, it's just making making the money. But I it's one of those questions I have at the back of my head, if I could just go off and do music thing, where would I could I should I kind of think because that's the most vulnerable place for me to go.
00:53:39:21 - 00:53:58:18
And I still like I play my drum and I play I, I, you know, pray. I pray with music by myself and I improvise and I make stuff up and it's still very much alive, but like to to take that and put it and like him to look at me kind of place is something I've, I've been much slower to do.
00:53:58:20 - 00:54:20:07
You know, I've learned so much either directly from you or from watching you and our friendship over the years. Well, that have a couple of them and then go to the thing that I'm like that I see you doing that I want to learn from. So first, I still edit the way you taught me, like, edit videos, which, as a quick aside, that is to hit record on the camera, deliver straight to camera.
00:54:20:07 - 00:54:40:12
Every time you make a mistake, just do a clap and then do the take again and then edit backwards. And so you see in your timeline all these audio spikes of the snap or the cloud or whatever. Yeah. And then you can go through and edit all of that. Before I dive into the other things, any anything to add anything I didn't get right about the way that perfect.
00:54:40:12 - 00:55:01:04
Yeah. I actually would always, you know, just make those like 3 or 4 of those, like, my daughter and I would play, like, we just watched all the Jurassic Park since we play Raptors. Right? Yeah. And she's like, how do you do it so fast? I'm like, honey, that was 20 years of fucking up on camera. Pardon my French right.
00:55:01:08 - 00:55:21:10
But yeah you see the audio waveform and you can just go backwards. And it makes it really easy to flow. Once you once you've edited a few times, it helps you to do it. And I'm always encouraging, like we were talking before, to people to edit their own stuff because it makes you better on camera. And that is that's a lifelong skill.
00:55:21:10 - 00:55:48:12
Once you get good at that. Sort of like being on camera because you understand what you're going to be editing later. I mean, I still edit all my own stuff. I've worked with editors in the past and they've been helpful, but like, I just put a little I just got a little different is that taste thing where it just comes off a little bit better and, you know, I'm whatever 15 or 20 years into a professional YouTube and video maker career.
00:55:48:14 - 00:56:15:00
And I'm still editing my own stuff, and I still use Final Cut instead of like, all the things I should be using. You know? Yeah, because it's just like I am. So it's just so fast. But yeah, that's a going backwards because then you might do a take three times and you're just getting the last one of it, because the last one was where when you were in front of the camera was take you're happy with you moved on, you moved on from there because you're at your limits editing the camera.
00:56:15:06 - 00:56:44:07
Yeah. What else? So another one is, unless I hear differently, this is a bias towards action. Yeah. So this is something that you put together actually, with Chris Johnson. Yeah. Where, you talked about something you learned from him when it was in sizzle? We did an interview inside of fizzle, which was my previous business with Corbett Barr and Caleb Logic, and, and we did an interview with Chris Johnson and sort of like this, like, is a little bit like Rain Man about Businessy type stuff.
00:56:44:09 - 00:56:59:18
And he's like another thing that I, that I optimize for with my employees is, is a bias for action. So I say, if you're going to write me an email, what I want you to do is make a decision and say, unless I hear differently, this is what I'm going to do, then I'll tell you if I want you to change it.
00:56:59:18 - 00:57:25:23
But if I don't say anything, you go ahead and do that. It's like the train is going by. Yeah. And if I'm like, oh no, I switch directions. Otherwise I know where you go. Totally. That's what bias for action means. And so I took that. I don't know when I however long ago that was and I just grabbed a website URL unless I hear definitely.com and or a difference should be unless I hear otherwise is is is internet like history, but and yeah, I just loved making all these little one off websites.
00:57:25:23 - 00:57:58:04
It's another thing I think, I don't think it's still there, but smuggling.biz, was was an inside joke from the Fizzle Show. So forever ago, tiny ceramic unicorns.com. That's another one. I'll just make this one page websites, money stressed biz. Just make these little one page, one idea. Just one idea. Like the money stress was just like you're just scrolling down and there's all these little bits of text that you like to stop and read and start writing.
00:57:58:06 - 00:58:19:13
And then at the end of it, just to stop gap, just like we was at about for the unless I hear differently.com were is it's just like some sample emails. The video is yeah here's how to do it. It's just like real simple. And that ended up getting on, oh gosh. Who was that guy on that W3?
00:58:19:15 - 00:58:37:12
A some old guy wrote like all these HTML books. Jeffrey. Zelman. Zelman. Yeah. Zelman. And, like, that was my get up the whole moment. Yeah. The version of you who is like, coding responsive websites was like, yes, I've made it. The version of me in Mexico with my co-founder with a mustache and a pink shirt. Yeah.
00:58:37:12 - 00:58:57:06
On video is a little embarrassing for sure, man. Yeah. There's a there's so many other things there. But one other one is this obsession and learning skills and just saying like to follow your curiosity. Interesting all learn that thing. The thing that you do that you've always done, that I feel like I don't do is holding things loosely and playing.
00:58:57:07 - 00:59:19:08
Right. Like of you'll do this thing where you're like should the intro to this vlog about Bozeman be a song. Yeah, absolutely. And like I think I care way too much what people think. And so the like free form all of that. Like there's too much of a editing process from even what's in my brain to what comes out.
00:59:19:10 - 00:59:39:18
There is a deep care like wanting to be seen and connected to as me. But there's also like a serious like, I will fucking leave and go be find somewhere, you know, like I will be like people who need to see this, will see this and understand it. And it's not for everybody. I remember hearing I used to listen religiously to Maron's WTF show.
00:59:39:20 - 01:00:01:17
And he had this, was it Stewart Smith and English like sort of alt comic guy on there as just brilliant but dry shit. And, and Mark was talking to him about like what? Like what have you learned about doing. He's like, I it's not for everybody. I can spot them. Like I was like early on, I'll spot the ones that it's like, and I'll call them out.
01:00:01:17 - 01:00:17:19
I'll be like, sir, this is not for you. It's just going to have to hang in for a little bit, you know, and there's somebody in a comedy show. In a comedy show. He. Because. Because it's just this guy's like, what the. He doesn't get it, but I'm looking at it going like, this is fucking brilliant, you know?
01:00:17:19 - 01:00:43:14
And this guy's over here just completely dead to it. Like, this is not interesting at all. The reality of something that is actually really well put together, going completely over or under somebody's radar. First of all, that that's true. And that can happen. The second of all, the thick enough skin to be able to take it. Third of all, the open heart enough to keep going and doing it.
01:00:43:16 - 01:01:11:18
So it's it's not easy. It's not easy. But there's also like the first thing I was thinking about when you're like, you know, be more playful around like, well, listen, Nathan Bear, I'm already covered by the blood of Jesus. I mean, like, we all get in, you know? So, but it's like there is a, there's like a, there's a strong sense of, you know, Jesus and I sort of have an open relationship, but there's this, a strong sense of, of like, I mean, I'm in my flow.
01:01:11:18 - 01:01:32:22
I'm doing my I'm doing my direction in life as authentically as I know how to do right now. And I'm sure I'm making mistakes and I the mistakes used to feel like I would die like I have, like, not just I made, I did something wrong, like I'm wrong, I'm bad. Right. And now it's a little bit more like, you know, we we all make mistakes in.
01:01:32:23 - 01:01:54:07
What I learn about mistakes is we get to we get to say sorry. We get to try better next time. And I guess that wasn't like, I for some reason that, like, what's true about me is that I'm not good, you know? Right. But, I love hearing that you want more of that playfulness. If I was designing sort of a route for that with you, it would be.
01:01:54:09 - 01:02:19:04
I would want you to do two things. I want you to take some risks, but I want you to enjoy it. To notice if you're enjoying was not just taking risk. Even if you don't like it, it's taking risk, for sure. But to find the thing that you actually enjoy, right? Like to to try to start normalizing that experience in your nervous system of like, oh, sometimes a little bit of out of control, a little bit of of unstructured narrative.
01:02:19:06 - 01:02:41:14
And I'm kind of enjoying myself and I get to be a little bit because I've identified with the I was a, I was a funny guy. I was like, I was going to use humor to try to get people to to like me and I. That eventually became very authentic. I don't remember being all that young and trying it on, but, I, I'm always a little chaotic.
01:02:41:16 - 01:02:58:12
I've always had a little chaotic. Chaotic. And the, the, the interesting thing of like is most people don't think I'm as smart as I am, you know, as I might sound like, you know, there's this line in the Bible that apparently Moses wrote or is like, Moses was the most humble man on the planet, but just a very un humble thing to say, Moses.
01:02:58:14 - 01:03:15:20
Right. But I, you know, like to say like I'm very intelligent, like my mind will get it, get I, I believe I'll get what I need to get what I'm talking about financial investments in this, that and the other, the stuff that I'm like, wow, I just don't get I just really can't get it and I'm okay with that.
01:03:15:20 - 01:03:35:05
But other things like I can sense like, no, no, I know something like, you come with me down and we go down in this old, deep sort of places, and I will be there in a way that surprises you. And like, I know that, I know that, and I don't need you to know that or see that or believe that about me, like I will like I know that, but I, I hold myself there.
01:03:35:07 - 01:03:58:09
So there's a confidence, there's like a, there's something that's confident. The irony is that came from insecurity. I came from like, I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel okay. I didn't feel loved or wanted or connected to. I just felt unsure. I just felt a lot of unsure. And so I would perform and do stuff to get those, you know, external validations and the dopamine.
01:03:58:09 - 01:04:16:02
And it was never it never was satisfying. But I had like made a whole personality out of it. And I took years for the hormones to start correcting to the point where it's like, I'm ready to feel my feelings now. It's like, oh, there you are, Peter. You know, you're starting to feel the thing that you wanted all along.
01:04:16:02 - 01:04:38:03
It's just that it's just like you had to go through grief and things that I really didn't want to feel to get there. Now, how that connects to play, whether if I'm really smart, like, like how am I going to connect to that? But like those two things of you taking risks and then you actually like learning and noticing if you like it or not.
01:04:38:05 - 01:05:02:14
To say it's a sense how, because chaos is the mother of us all. Actually, you know, chaos is like where it comes from. Chaos is if we prefer order, especially like you, you prefer or high conscientiousness. Nathan Barry's what I call you all our friends, right? High conscientiousness. Nathan. Very control. Directed, disciplined. Going in the same direction for a long period of time.
01:05:02:16 - 01:05:24:03
Chaos is would be. Yeah. Would be a little bit of the antidote to all of that. But it's where that play comes from. It's where it's where innovation comes from. And so to to try to get some of that into your system, the quickest route would be just through taking some risks, right? Taking some some risks and then slowing down or noticing enough.
01:05:24:03 - 01:05:41:08
What, what that's what that feels like. Yeah. Because when you start to feel safer with a little more risk taking, not like, not like, oh, I do not like you're, you're risking your fucking life or something, you know, just like I'm going to say this thing, I'm going to perform this song and karaoke with sober, you know, I'm going to do this.
01:05:41:10 - 01:06:01:08
I'm gonna try that. Like, karaoke is great. Actually, that's what I would do. You know, I was the karaoke whisperer of Portland. I taught many people how to how to do karaoke, and I gave many of their goals in song. And it is like it's it's a holy thing figuring out where your holy song is, because with the karaoke you want, you got to be able to sing it like, because it means something to you, right?
01:06:01:11 - 01:06:20:23
You got to be able to like the people in it. You want to be able to hear it because they're having their own moment with it. Right? That's like a good enough song. And it also can't be something that someone already did. You know, it can't be drinking don't stop believing. But it can be faithfully by journey, which is mine, I will fucking, I'll make the place cry and fall out.
01:06:21:00 - 01:06:42:21
And everybody's arm in arm doing the big chorus at the end. But signing that song for you is one of those, like, risks that I would explore, because then you get the sense through, ironically, through the meaning of the song and then the the potential embarrassment of performing it in a karaoke place where people are drunk anyways.
01:06:42:23 - 01:07:05:04
Right? It's like none of this matters. None of this matters, but it's all the ingredients are there to play with that little bit of chaos and how you find yourself in it. And that's what's so good about it. And that's like, that's what creating on, in the, in the midst of a public marketplace, right, is like, is we really notice when someone's showing up as themselves.
01:07:05:06 - 01:07:23:11
And I think that's what we're going to crave more and more and more over times, what we've always craved. But like even more so in the age of I, because it's so different. Like one thing that stood out to me was you talking about speaking directly to the person and imagining the person on the other side of the lens watching that and like sitting there and forming an emotional connection to.
01:07:23:12 - 01:07:44:06
Yeah, not a direct person, but you can you can imagine, you can create them. You can have that persona there. And that being so different from reading from the I edited, generated script off the teleprompter, totally hit that before you go to the next thing. Totally. You know, your your key phrase in that to me was, here's what this means to me.
01:07:44:08 - 01:08:00:23
Like that's the name of the field notes. Yeah. Like right. It's like or the segment on the YouTube channel or whatever. Like here's what this means to me, because what I, what I'm sensing and what you're saying is like actually wanting to be seen a little deeper, right? It's like like that's that's a little different than play.
01:08:01:03 - 01:08:21:18
It's like wanting to be seen a little deeper and wanting to be a little more, a little more. Show your work. Right. And that's awesome. That's right. I think that, you know, from my perspective and from my experience that only grows things right. And it doesn't grow things with everybody. Yeah. Like it grows things with, like, the right people, just a certain.
01:08:21:18 - 01:08:43:10
And it's like again, that's Stuart Smith like, yeah. This isn't for you sir. Right. To put yourself out there in a way the, the you call it rigid. Some would call it control. But maybe a better word is even just structured. The structured or architecture approach to things makes so much sense. Like a developer like just putting it out.
01:08:43:12 - 01:09:02:01
What I'm hearing is just what I'm feeling from you is more your heart in it, right? And like, you've built amazing big heart. This is a huge heart family man. Like I see you with the employees and it's like, you know it. You've got a lot that's golden and glowy about you. And I would like I would like to see more of that.
01:09:02:01 - 01:09:28:05
I would tune in for that. And, you know, being, you know, here's what this means to me, like as a way to connect to a little more of that and also as a way for you to have something to explore in that, because it's like a thread, you start pulling it and it it's a little different over time, and you're going to have a dip with it where it's like some are going to be great and some are like just that's why I do them at the end of my videos.
01:09:28:07 - 01:09:49:04
Because talk about this idea of bag reviews, because at first we haven't even talked for that of like, do you do the bag reviews? But then the philosophy, right. Bringing philosophy end of that. Yeah. Well, again, to those two skills, I've got my own personal interest and I do geek out about bags, or at least I have and I have, I it's sitting under the desk, but I have a bag right here that you recommended for me for apex, bro.
01:09:49:06 - 01:10:15:21
That's a great I know I'll love it. Yeah. So there is awesome there. Like, that's a perfect bag for you. Yeah. It's the perfect bag for you. So yeah, I, I first of all, I find all these soulful brands that are interesting like troubadour who are making elevated, elevated products. How do you notice that it's elevated the shape and the structure and the silhouette of it, the, the the materials, especially on the inside, especially on that handle and the straps, all these little design elements.
01:10:15:21 - 01:10:52:00
And the same thing you're doing with websites, right. Whereas like, how do we make this a little different? All these physical soft goods designers are doing the same thing. I don't notice a difference between those two designing on a digital surface versus, you know, it's the same exact thing. And so first of all, it's finding all these brands and relating to them and seeing these products and all that came from personal interest and curiosity, all that came from one company that, you know, Corbett knew the guys of Menthol forever because they used to come to like Bloggy Conference, the Internet of Things, and I negotiated to get a bag for them from them.
01:10:52:00 - 01:11:11:01
And I'll do a little video and, you know, anyways, the rest is the rest is history. I still get most of the things in my life for free, including my son and Copeland's. Thank you. Redwood Outdoor Sauna make the best sort of out there a little bit thicker thermal wood. Okay, I went for the I went for the the more expensive 10,000 units like.
01:11:11:01 - 01:11:46:17
And he also does sleep on the cold plunge.com because they're actually still making one of the best ones out there. I never got paid from those guys, but I did get stuff. And I do love I do love that stuff. But, there's philosophy that I keep dropping through talking about a product like that, or the sauna, or the cold plunge, or wandered bags or peak design or packs, one of my favorites of all time, which is like and for me to express why this is just as interesting to me as that, like nomadic, super techie, cool looking one like to, you know, like it like that one.
01:11:46:17 - 01:12:07:06
Look, you all the techie, the Star Wars dudes are like, yeah, I love that already. Just without even talking about it. This one, they're like, what do you mean? Like, what's like, let me tell you. Right. It opens clamshell. Look at these straps. Here's this waterproof pocket here. Look at all this stuff that like, there's a there's things that only start to speak to you when you're on a journey with it.
01:12:07:08 - 01:12:27:08
Right. The journey itself is what you have a travel bag for. That's like that's the metaphor. It when you really when I really started to take off, it was all these what I call one bag travel backpacks where you travel without a roller bag. Everything's on your back. It can fit under the seat in front of you. Best case scenario, so you can be the last person on the plane.
01:12:27:10 - 01:12:53:18
And you know, you get that international flight and your you wake up in frickin Prague or Denmark or Milano or something, and you're just like, I guess I'm I guess I'm doing this now, like, like the day just begins, but I so I have everything that I need. You have everything that you need. You're walking through cobblestone streets, which is a real bitch with a roller bag in Barcelona where, like, I didn't know there was a beach here.
01:12:53:20 - 01:13:13:13
It's like no one. I'm going to take this little roller bag out to the out to the sand. Right. It was such a different vibe of doing things, and I was always a traveler and that my my wife and now we're separated. But like, on a trip in Europe right after college, you know, several months. And then I got a visa.
01:13:13:13 - 01:13:35:00
And when I lived out in Dublin and and did the whole thing, I was always like a like once, once I started traveling, I was like, oh, this is a part of me and the different old places like Europe. So great. The point being, I'm dropping philosophy of that second ski in that first. It's a second ski strategy at a first ski context.
01:13:35:02 - 01:13:56:14
It but you said something about that that stood out to me when we were talking earlier about the bag. Like it being what you carry with you on the journey. Yeah. My favorite, my favorite thing to review these days is the everyday carry backpack. Like that troubadour. And because, you know, some of my favorites are the simplest in the world.
01:13:56:16 - 01:14:12:02
But they got like a, like, injection molded zipper and it just in the shape of I just feel so fucking good. And then just, just a 3D molded, molded pocket like a basic old school Jansport school bag, right? God, I love that, I love that, but it's a little elevated because I'm talking about like the brown buffalo conceal.
01:14:12:04 - 01:14:27:22
Right. Or or something that like, you know, wandered has a new thing that I haven't even played with yet, but I got it. And I was like, it starts with an and I can't remember where it I was like, okay, wandered all right. Because they've been making the provoke for like a billion years. And it's amazing back.
01:14:28:00 - 01:14:52:00
I know it's a little inside baseball. I'll just go with it because like five dudes are like, yep, yep, that one. Yep I know, I know right. Yeah. But there is that everyday carry products is so interesting because as creatives and entrepreneurs, we live out of our bags. We're going back and we're like a laptop culture I really like.
01:14:52:00 - 01:15:11:07
I'm always trying to carry as minimal as possible, but there's some things that I need. Like I have these these focal, but these headphones, which are the best, like just spend the extra $100 and get these because they're the best of the best, okay? They just feel incredibly sound. Amazing. The noise canceling is freaking great. But they're spacy.
01:15:11:07 - 01:15:30:17
They're big, you know? So I got it. I know I'm carrying those because I've already I've already got a relationship with that product. I have a relationship with my brother's old, battery that has like the usb-C and the USB mini and the lightning even I don't use I only use usb-C. Right. I have the DHS as a Keep Tahoe Blue sticker on.
01:15:30:17 - 01:15:48:22
It's always in my bag. I use my studio need piano book notebook, which is a different form factor, and I just, I love it. I can't get enough of it. Why? What was that? The thing that that stood out to me. When you said that, you go on a journey and it's what you carry with you that I think shapes the journey.
01:15:49:03 - 01:16:09:23
And I think about that from a from an emotional perspective, not about the gear at all, but like, yeah, you say imagine that Barcelona, there's opportunity. There's a beach here, all of that. But you've got your suitcase with you. Yeah. Oh, I guess we're not going to go spend two hours in the beach enjoying this, because we got two hours to kill before the train or whatever.
01:16:10:05 - 01:16:31:02
You know, everything has to. I want to get sand in my wheels because you don't. It would suck. And so what? Like the emotional baggage that you carry with you on this journey of your life and business and relationships and everything else. Like if you can be thoughtful about each thing. Yeah. Whether it's like, oh my, my dad was disappointed in me for this thing.
01:16:31:02 - 01:16:50:01
And so now I have to always do it this way, and I'm going to carry this with me. And so I can't go have this experience. I can't pursue this dream. Right? Or even like, like, what am I looking for? Right? Like, what am I still searching for and seeking? Am I going to find it in Milan? Am I going to find it in Prague?
01:16:50:03 - 01:17:16:11
Is it was it her? Is it that meetup? The WordPress frickin meetup at some pub in Berlin, right? Was it? Where did what am I looking for? And travel was so great to be like, oh, there's this and oh, there's that and oh, there's this. And now again, 43 and hormonally it's a little more like, okay, the compass is turning inside and it's like I and also the all of the psychotherapy is very clear on this.
01:17:16:11 - 01:17:35:15
Like you're going to generate your own meaning. You're going to generate your we call it re parenting. Right. You're going to repair it yourself. Give yourself the love that you needed and didn't get because that ache is controlling your life and it's not teaching you how to fulfill it. It's just getting it's like more maybe this, maybe that, maybe this, maybe that, maybe over here.
01:17:35:20 - 01:17:54:23
Because you don't actually that doesn't it doesn't even want to be fulfilled. It doesn't know and you don't know how to get into the texture of fulfillment. So baggage, what do we carry with us? I carry that panel book from studio NE because that's where those kinds of notes go, where I'm using the Mach one pen because it's juicy.
01:17:55:04 - 01:18:32:18
There's no freaking label on it or anything, and it's got an all metal click mechanism. Very okay. And the kids are going to fight over it. When You're Dead is my favorite band, refill. And I'm writing in there in this weird shaped paper because it's slowing me down enough to maybe notice that I'm satisfied that, like, fucking gelato in Italy was absolutely worth the price of admission or, you know, a frickin cross on it, like the wicker chairs at the cafes in Paris, then this is just like the vibe of the city or the the road trip.
01:18:32:23 - 01:18:54:09
Some of the countryside in France, it's like, am I satisfied now? Am I satisfied now? What do I need when in this moment is lacking? And slowly over time, like the bag gets lighter? Yeah. Do it again. You need less. It's like, oh, I didn't have, you know, I didn't. I forgot my fucking toothpaste. I can't believe it.
01:18:54:09 - 01:19:27:01
Well, good news is there's a the equivalent of a CVS everywhere you go. Everywhere. Right? Yeah. That mode of travel starts to be less about what I carry with me and more about how I am in the journey. Right. How's that for a metaphor? I like it, I like it, yeah, it's the last thing. Yeah, that I want to touch on is I've seen you go from this focus on big audiences and reaching lots and lots of people to small groups and being in person, being intentional with people and going somewhere deeper in relationships.
01:19:27:02 - 01:19:40:14
Like, tell me about that journey and how are you spending your time? Yeah, there's groups. Well, it's the best because we don't know how to we don't know how to one to many, most of us don't know how to one to many. Everyone is where you meet people who are like professional stage people and they know how to one to many.
01:19:40:14 - 01:19:55:20
And you're a little bit like, oh, okay. Like, you know, you're not even you until you're up there. Got it. Like, right. And you don't even really have access to them here. They're like, no, no, I have a family, dude. I don't need you. You're like, okay, I got it. Do your thing. Yeah, but most of us that back to that idea of like, what am I seeking?
01:19:55:22 - 01:20:15:22
What what is what in this moment is lacking? It is exactly to your point on, you know, velvet, what do we call that keyword for you? This is what matters. Why this matters to me. What was the field notes called? I can't remember now. I'm not sure. But like what it's like what I think it is exactly to the same point on that, Nathan, where it's like, I want to be seen a little bit more.
01:20:16:00 - 01:20:37:05
I want to be witnessed. Here's one thing I've realized in these small groups is healing requires witness. It doesn't require witnesses. I mean, might not, but I found that, like in men's groups that I'm hosting, man shows up, we create a space of security, safety, and it starts to deepen. The space starts to deepen, which happens really naturally.
01:20:37:07 - 01:21:07:05
Vulnerability starts to be expressed. And just the witnessing this guy is not my responsibility is not yours either. None of us are responsible for his life. It's his life, right? He's not responsible for mine. It's my life and I'm sharing. It's like you're not responsible for my life. It's. It's mine. Witnessing where I'm at was started to become like this, like thing where it was actual intimacy, I guess, for lack of a better term, it's intimacy and being seen and it's fine.
01:21:07:07 - 01:21:32:12
And it's not like, oh my God, I love you and you're the best, right? And it's not like, you're a fucking piece of crap, right? It's neutral. That space is more scary. I'm less reactive. I want to find some place to bounce off from what I'm doing. Just the same point of, like, the being in a little bit more of the chaos and the karaoke and normalizing that narcissism.
01:21:32:12 - 01:21:54:10
What I'm doing, normalizing reality, that's what we need. I have from a young age was alone in my room, like creating my own little world, and it was like interfacing with reality was like dodgy, was like it was, I don't know, it was. It was suspect at best, you know, and I want to be in reality. And my relationship was with my lover.
01:21:54:10 - 01:22:08:10
I want to be in reality, my relationship with my kids. I want to be in reality, my relationship with my customers and clients and and the internet at large. I want to be in reality. I want to help people get into reality. So I find that in smaller groups and, you know, I do one on one work too.
01:22:08:10 - 01:22:31:14
But like the group dynamic itself becomes this, like sort of energetic, spaceship that like, we can go places with, we can do stuff with. And ultimately, I think if you like a car wash, you come in one end and go out the other, because what matters is not what this is. What matters is you're you're going back to your wife, your kids, your business, your career.
01:22:31:16 - 01:22:37:17
You're like like this. Damn, talk to the men for a second.
01:22:37:19 - 01:22:59:09
You know, men have gotten a lot of shit. It's a lot of the rules have changed. A lot of the experiences and expectations have shifted. We're all still trying to figure that out, but we will absolutely be holding the world together, a part of holding the world together. And we carry a lot on our backs, and we've got to connect with each other in ways where it's not just sports and booze, where it's also like, I see what you're carrying.
01:22:59:11 - 01:23:19:00
Yeah, that's cool. It's a good job. Like, you know, I hope you keep going. And if you don't, no worries. Right. And it's like there's something that we can do with each other. And so like on Instagram, I have this like trend on stories where it's just joining a men's group. Gemg. And it's just these funny videos that I find and it's just JMJ join a men's group.
01:23:19:00 - 01:23:44:05
And it's either reasons why you should or reasons why, why this guy needed it or like whatever. Because I just want to normalize the idea that, like, guys can get together in smaller groups, bring a little intention, which is not necessarily comfortable, but like once you get into it, then it starts to get kind of lame when someone's coming and being a performative little turkey, you know, you're just like all right, settle down.
01:23:44:05 - 01:24:04:19
Fucking Charles. You know, I can't feel your heart at all. I want your sharing, by the way. You know, good performance because, like these guys in my men's groups that I'm just a part of, like, they walk me through divorce. I walked them through finding the woman that they asked to marry. Our kids have all grown up together.
01:24:04:19 - 01:24:31:02
Like, there's just so much life. You end up walking each other through accidentally, once every three weeks, right? But that amortized over three plus years ends up being super valuable. So that's why I'm like, join the men's go by, join a men's group. And if you don't have one, like of one of my retreats, I work with a guy named David Sutcliffe right now who is the best group facilitator I've ever seen.
01:24:31:04 - 01:24:48:03
He was he was a dad and Gilmore Girls, by the way. He was like an actor in LA for a long time, and just the one of the best I've seen. And in the room, my buddy Dan Tarquini, who I was with yesterday, who lives here in Boise, I was telling you about there's like all this negotiation, another one of those guys that was just like the best in the room.
01:24:48:05 - 01:25:04:15
So I'm hosting things at my house that are that are deep. And then I'm also starting to host like kind of a 101, like a men's activation where it's just like, all right, here's the basics of the nervous system. We're going to do some sort of cold plunge or talk about our feelings, and I'm gonna show you that can be cool.
01:25:04:16 - 01:25:22:12
We're also going to do these experiences where you're going to you're going to see yourself reflected back from someone else who doesn't know you. So another thing about this, where it's like, especially when you don't mean there's like a debate, do I go like with my buddies or do I go where I don't know anybody? Right. And there's so much value.
01:25:22:12 - 01:25:46:03
I think you were talking about this at the when you were talking with your coach about the reboot thing as well. Maybe it's something like it, but just that, like that walk down back. Yeah. You know, with somebody you don't really know about, like the place in your life that you're in, right? It's going to be wildly effective at getting us to come to terms with where we are.
01:25:46:05 - 01:26:06:07
Because I noticed in myself I just didn't want to see it made me feel like a failure and made me feel like something's wrong with me. And it was being witnessed again and again over time. Like I can still feel the feeling of it, like the scared in me. And when you said the word intimacy and, someone explained it to me once as into me, you see.
01:26:06:07 - 01:26:29:05
Yeah. And I like that. I just like being with people who can see what you're going through. Who? Yeah. Who can truly, I just bring it to another, like, another layer of depth. Yeah. Terry. Real. Is this great therapist, guy, like, when, Esther Perel needs relationship coaching, she goes to Terry real. Okay, okay. It's a good marketing line.
01:26:29:08 - 01:26:56:13
Yeah, yeah, as it reminds me of when, like, this doctor Jack Cruz was on Tetragrammaton, which is Rick Rubin's podcast, the owner, and it's Jack Cruz, Andrew Huberman and Rick Rubin. And the only thing Rick Rubin does to open the conversation and ask jackers, how many brain surgeries have you done? And it goes over 10,000. And the conversation and Jack Cruz is yelling at Andrew Huberman the entire time and you're like, okay, no, I get it.
01:26:56:13 - 01:27:18:19
I can see what you're saying. You're fucking bonkers, this dickhead Jack. Anyways, completely, completely separate. But like, yeah, when Esther Perel needs coaching in a relationship, it comes to Terry Real. And he says, for those of us who are have like addictive tendencies or addicts of some kind, the cure to addiction is intimacy. And that's a fascinating idea.
01:27:18:21 - 01:27:46:13
The cure to the striving and the never enoughness and all of that is intimacy. And I will say from my experience, initial experiences with intimacy, where this was actually the feeling of disappointment, like Trump or Embassy says, enlightenment is the last great disappointment. And I think that's a fascinating idea, right? Sometimes it doesn't look how we expect it or want it to.
01:27:46:14 - 01:28:14:23
When we hear the word intimacy, we think it looks like melting into. But it might have more. Actually, I'm standing here individuated, but I'm in relationship than we expected. It might be different than we expected, right? So that's why over time with a group, that kind of experience can get a little bit more normalized. And then you can start to feel that with your partner because Nathan Barry, back in the napkin math, you want to change the fucking world.
01:28:15:01 - 01:28:43:21
You affect the relationship between a committed, monogamous couple of whatever sex and gender that are raising kids, because what that's doing is that's creating an environment that those kids are living in and shaping the worldview and the reality for those kids within one gender within, like, you know, 40 years, you've changed multiple generations. If you can make aliveness, which comes from being able to tell the truth and it being okay to be me here with you, and it's okay for you to be you here, because then we can figure this out over time.
01:28:43:23 - 01:29:07:22
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, bro, I like it. I get, maybe a final thing that maybe wrapping all of this together. I'm very curious of what success looks like to you. What I used to imagine for success was just people paying attention to me and liking me and fitting in. Yeah, now it's like me liking me.
01:29:08:00 - 01:29:34:20
And ironically, it's so classic. What I needed for that was integrity. I didn't need to be a better artist. I didn't need to be more creative or take more risks or whatever. I just need to know what I was committed to and, that is like a vibe. Integrity is a fucking vibe. Success is like liking me, for sure.
01:29:34:21 - 01:29:58:02
And, you know, a huge, a huge part of that is, is like, touching into and feeling the the feelings that I didn't know how to feel, like I just turned myself off of, like there was a whole whole parts of my inner experience that I was even I was deep meditator, very experienced in lots of modalities, all the psychedelics, all the things like that.
01:29:58:04 - 01:30:22:10
It's like inner child work and touching into relating to this four year old, seven year old, 11 year old, 22 year old, all these different experiences with Kimmy in Austin, Texas, that career coach, because he gave me where something started to happen, where I started to love this young me. I started to love this guy because every time I connected to him and I could sense into like, what is he wanting?
01:30:22:12 - 01:30:43:02
He just wanted somebody there to attuned to him. And just like for him to be okay, to sense like he was, he was okay. And I I'll be damned if I don't see that in just about everybody I see out there. You know, ironically, the integrity and then the like, loving into myself. Those were available this entire time.
01:30:43:02 - 01:31:16:22
Nathan. Very like those. I read those books 15, 20 years ago. You know, it didn't click, it didn't click. But now there's such a richness in those that the emotional texture of that, that is, oh, God, it's nourishing and it feels great. I'm still scared, you know, I'm scared of I'm scared of of going into relationship again and being being hurt, you know, but I'm like, I'm with that fear of abandonment in a way that I, that I wasn't before.
01:31:16:23 - 01:31:35:09
I would have just bounced right off of it and gone. Done big performance guy and try to, like, get her to like me and still be like, you know, I'm I'm a bamboozle or, you know, it takes about two hours. I don't know, I've been here to like, a therapist. These, talk to me about two hours before I'm, like, down in the substrate, like, okay, we can just fucking hang out from here.
01:31:35:12 - 01:31:59:03
So that's my definition of success, I think is just liking me. And. Yeah, because for me, liking me, it because I put myself on a, on a, both on a pedestal and I beat the shit out of myself. Right. Like, I expect high standard. I expect very great things of myself. I've, I've worked with some of the best coaches, mentors and shamans and guides and artists out there.
01:31:59:05 - 01:32:22:00
I've paid attention to and studied like, like legit studied the best comedians and artists, not tours and filmmakers and all this stuff. Like in a way where I'm like, now I see what they're doing. Like, I get it, I get it, and and so like, the expectations are really high for myself in the face of all of that to just go like, oh, yeah, but you know, it's, you know, it's even better.
01:32:22:02 - 01:32:45:16
This is just like in me. It's a very simple answer and it's a like a very deep answer simultaneously. Yeah. It's so strange how how that's exactly the depth I was looking for. And I was looking everywhere. Yeah. Oh, man. There's so many things I've taken away from this conversation. I'm just thinking about bringing element of play and, the karaoke and that.
01:32:45:16 - 01:33:08:05
That terrifies me a little bit. Yeah. Which points to for me, like an aspect of, like wanting to seem put together and not want to fail on a public stage. Yeah, that's the thing. And so everything just so relatable. But of course, into everything that I put out there goes to an editor in some way, right. If I'm like, oh, that was original, you know, clap, make me make my velociraptor sound, you know, whatever.
01:33:08:05 - 01:33:28:02
Can it out. And so, you know, you do things in a public stage, or like the entertainment side that. What if it's not entertaining? What if I fail, you know, or that sort of thing. So finding, like, chasing my curiosity, finding things that, challenge me. I don't think I've sat down to, like, learn a new skill in quite a while.
01:33:28:02 - 01:33:48:09
And so that was interesting. I'm like, oh, what if I were to do that? And what would you learn if you were going to learn something right now, I'd be singing, oh, that was so quick. Yeah. So a question that I like is, you know, if you could, like, snap your fingers or wave a magic wand and, like, acquire a new skill, that would be something where I think of it fully.
01:33:48:11 - 01:34:09:02
I tend to think of, I think as humans, we we bucket things in terms of, like what you can only be. You only be great at with, like, natural ability versus what, you could acquire with deliberate practice. So for me, like, design, video editing, you know, like, deliberate practice, like show up, putting the wraps, all of that.
01:34:09:02 - 01:34:26:00
Yeah. You get it? Yeah. Math. Any of those things fall into that bucket for me? I think, like, playing an instrument and creating that bucket. But, like, singing and vocals and all that would be like, oh, you got to be, you know, it has to be an innate talent. Yeah, my wife is. She's like, what are you talking about?
01:34:26:00 - 01:34:45:06
That is absolutely a skill you can learn. You know, like, yeah, she's different. Like, here's one thing that I believe as a parent, your job is to help your kids give them a taste of as many things as possible. Yeah. So they move it from the bucket of, like, oh, I can only do that if I had innate talent right into the mantle bucket of if I wanted to, I could acquire that skill and I could do it over time.
01:34:45:06 - 01:35:03:21
Yeah. But yeah, like I think, music and singing would be the. I was so quick. Yeah. You know, you, I kind of owe it to yourself. And also, there's nothing more, like, connected and holy than the actual experience of of your own voice. Yeah, right. And for me, it'd be the like, it's, it's so, important to my wife.
01:35:04:01 - 01:35:23:20
Like, she loves music, and she like, you know, she's in jazz choir. She's, you know, all that's singing harmony is a vibe, dude. Yeah. This is a five. It's great. Okay. Hold you to that the. Yeah. There you go. Now, I gotta there's, there's like there's great coaches out there. Yeah. There's great vocal coaches. And they have you do good warmups and exercises and things just to get you a sense of it.
01:35:23:20 - 01:35:41:22
Like this is a well known thing about how to teach this. But I think for me, if I think about personal development, right, there's the skills that are will be interesting to acquire next of like maybe it's like, you know, you're like, I'm going to learn to be great at I with this thing. And there's a bunch of skills there.
01:35:41:22 - 01:36:02:23
Or for me, another one would be art, right? Like, at one point was okay at drawing, like to be great at that. My friend, Kevin Esposito, who runs a, a blog YouTube channel called Epic Gardening. He's for the last nine months and he's like, look, I'm just going to become good at drawing. And he went from being like, not good to very, very good.
01:36:02:23 - 01:36:22:03
In no way documented it. But like, that's a very achievable thing. Like I have enough of that. Yeah. Then I'm okay. I know I could do that. Yeah. If I set aside the time. But something like, I would say like dance or singing, it's like, oh, that's actually a little like the curiosity is here and the fear is here.
01:36:22:04 - 01:36:47:10
I guarantee you that you do the you do like you hire a coach trainer on the voice thing and do the like the, notebook, sort of some of that notebook content. You're going to you're going to feel more expressed. Right? Right. You're going to feel a lot more express, which is I think it's just something that we all want, especially like you're living at the top of, of like like of, at such a high level.
01:36:47:12 - 01:37:06:19
Right. And you're not feeling fully expressed. You're not feeling fully alive in some ways. Like you can feel the like the itch or like the interest in that, like follow some of that. And that's the best thing about like, you could just hire a coach to write to do that. Right? You can just like tell some of your people like, this is important to me.
01:37:06:19 - 01:37:22:07
I want you to keep me on task with this. So now I have to keep a field notes in my pocket. Right. You know, the other the studio need one's a little bit better. A topic many. Okay, we'll get that in there. Well, there's been so many good things in here. Thanks for the I think. Yeah, thanks for the most chaotic conversation.
01:37:22:10 - 01:37:46:11
I never had this podcast. My favorite part was it's a two story approach and a single. It's a second ski approach and a single ski context. So if people want this level of chaos from you on a more regular basis, where should they go on the internet to get more Chase Reeves in there? You know, most of it used to be my whole internet presence was very chaotic, and now it's very cultured and curated.
01:37:46:13 - 01:38:09:10
So but like my YouTube channel and my Instagram, that's where that's that's where I why should people search just your name? Chase. Chase Reeves. Bozeman. Chase w Reeves on everything. Basically. That sounds good. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks, Nathan. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Berry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.
01:38:09:12 - 01:38:16:08
I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.