Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. Welcome back to from Here Forward, A UBC Podcast, network. Podcast. I'm Carol.
[00:00:07] Jeevan Sangha: And I'm Jeevan. Happy November everyone. It feels like it was just summer and suddenly we're in the second last month of 2025. Time flies.
[00:00:15] Carol Eugene Park: I was just talking to a friend about how 2025 felt like the shortest year since 2018, which was my fourth year of undergrad.
[00:00:22] And not to be dramatic but dare I say that being a fourth-year student is one of the most stressful times of one's life. Like you're either. Apply to grad school because you're crashing out and you don't know what to do, or you're applying to grad school because your life is ending at 21.
[00:00:36] Jeevan Sangha: Just me. No, not at all. I feel like that's a shared experience for me. It was my fifth year, 'cause five is a new four, and I remember feeling crushed by the weight of these like big life decisions and a little spoiler for our conversation. But life transitions are notoriously tough for a lot of people to navigate.
[00:00:53] Carol Eugene Park: There's a lot of stress, a lot of strain on one's mental health and pop quiz. Actually, I don't even know how to ask this question in a trivia style, so I'm just gonna lay out the stats and you can respond. Did you know that according to Movember Foundation, three outta four deaths by suicide are men in Canada, and suicide is the second leading cause of death among Canadian males aged 15 to 44 years old.
[00:01:19] Jeevan Sangha: I did not know that. But as we learned, those stats are actually tied to broader issues that are facing men's health today. This month we talked to Dr. John Oliffe, who's a professor and Tier One Canada Research chair in Men's Health promotion at the UBC School of Nursing.
[00:01:34] Carol Eugene Park: We asked John a lot of questions about men's mental health because his research focuses on masculinities that influence men's health behaviors and illness management and its impact on the quality of life.
[00:01:45] Jeevan Sangha: It was a really. Lovely and informative conversation, and we hope you enjoy.
[00:01:50] John Oliffe: Yeah, so I'm a professor at the University of British Columbia and I'm fortunate enough to have a Canada Research Chair in Men's health promotion, which allows me to focus on research, all the things that affect guys. We tend to do a lot of work in the mental health space.
[00:02:06] Jeevan Sangha: Lovely. And can you tell us about a key moment or a finding that really drove your interest in men's health?
[00:02:13] John Oliffe: Yeah. Interestingly, I started out in the emergency room for 20 years as a registered nurse, so I saw a lot of things. Things tend to happen very quickly in the emergency room, and when I had a chance to really think about it, there was guys showing up and they weren't always expressing themselves to what was going on for them.
[00:02:30] And to triage those guys was often a challenge. And I thought about that a lot and where those behaviors come from. And so, as I moved into teaching an academic world, they formulated my research question. So, it's kind of where it came from. It was a clinical kind of base that I was just intrigued about why blokes show up the way they do.
[00:02:50] Carol Eugene Park: Could you offer some examples of what was really difficult with the triaging?
[00:02:54] John Oliffe: So, it's an interesting job 'cause you're at the front of an emergency department, you got people coming in and your job is to work out who needs to be seen first. So that's quite challenging.
[00:03:04] For guys a lot of times, they'd be clutching middle chest and they'd be diaphoretic, so they'd be sweating. So, there'd be clearly a cardiovascular kind of involvement potentially, and it's like your call, but they'd be denying any chest pain. That that kind of discord almost between the embodied things that were probably going on for them and their expression; that was a challenge.
[00:03:25] And then we saw a lot of guys too in the emergency room, people talk about guys don't go to the doctor. It's true of family care. We don't see them as often, but in emergency rooms they're actually, they're more than half of your clientele because they show up with injuries and accidents as well. Just that whole piece was challenging because you, you're seeing a lot of guys come in with different things and then you're triaging them out.
[00:03:46] It's not always straightforward. They're not always exactly telling you what's going on, so you have to put the pieces together a little bit.
[00:03:53] Carol Eugene Park: So, your interest in men's health started in the clinical setting. How did mental health become part of that?
[00:03:59] John Oliffe: We started that with a really basic question, as is often the case. We believed there was a discordant relationship between men's low levels of depression and high rates of suicide. And so, then these suicide rates, four out of five suicides in Canada are men.
[00:04:14] So, it's not to suggest for a moment that only route to suicide is depression because it's certainly not, but we know it's a big risk indicator. Guys were being diagnosed at half the rate of women with depression. So, we somehow felt that depression was a women's health issue and we were missing the depression in guys I believe and not thinking creatively enough about how to diagnose it and treat it.
[00:04:37] And interestingly, 60% of those guys who die by suicide, they have accessed professional healthcare services in the 12 months prior to their death. So, we just became intrigued about what we felt were these discordant relationships. And that's the black box that, you know, you're trying to work out that pathway in a way that you can explain what happened, but more helpfully get upstream and say, hey, if we could intervene in these ways.
[00:05:05] We might be able to make a difference to what is a dire outcome, which is suicide.
[00:05:10] Carol Eugene Park: So, not to get too political here, but in the last decade, north America specifically has seen, you know, a rise of conservatism and traditional masculinity, whatever that means. I'm curious how these neo new wave of masculinity has affected men's health or mental health things, like you said, going to the doctor or seeking therapy that's still not really a masculine trait.
[00:05:37] John Oliffe: It, it is so interesting, isn't it? Because the world has changed for the better. I think young men are a little lost in some ways because they understand that, that the world has changed or that they're growing up in a time of difference. So, I think there's been a disorientation for a lot of young men in terms of, you know, if you look to your forefather, you're probably not gonna hit his milestones. you know it's gonna be different. Growing up in a time of unregulated social media or there's a bunch of things going on.
[00:06:04] So I think that manosphere that we all talk about and reference and that toxic masculinity, it's, it's an unfortunate term. Imagine being a young man growing up in that period and hearing those things. It's sending messages to you that you're not good enough and that you're somehow caught up in that. And that's unfortunate because we'd suggest that in talking with young men, their values are often really good in terms of selflessness, openness. They do have an interest in their health.
[00:06:33] And to your term, like traditional masculinity. I'm like, are we talking about the eighties and nineties? Are we talking about like that period where it was like restrictive about how you could be, and we feel that we've moved on from that, but in many ways we haven't. Do we wash out some of those really good values that young men are growing up with and are we vilifying them inadvertently by using words like toxic and manosphere?
[00:06:57] when I started out, I used to just be able to talk about health and nowadays it's so enmeshed with the masculinity and health piece. I think it's good to have the conversation, but we weren't getting these conversations about masculinity or tease in the plural 10, 15 years ago.
[00:07:13] So in some ways there's a gain, but if we keep reverting back to, oh, what it is, and traditional, I think we shortchange some of our young men and even middle aged guys who are adjusting and making changes based on the state of the world, like it's shifting oftentimes, like very much for the good.
[00:07:30] Right.
[00:07:31] Jeevan Sangha: some of these reflections that you shared about conversation on Masculinity is really interesting to me, and I'm curious about what another approach could look like instead of fixating on the idea of toxic masculinity or like you mentioned a traditional masculinity. Do you think that focusing more on the values that we're instilling in young men is a better approach or. What are some other ways that we can tackle conversations about masculinity?
[00:07:56] John Oliffe: Yeah, it's a great question there. There's a few trains of thought. I'll try to articulate a couple, but you know, like masculinity in a singular is problematic, right? There's clear evidence that it is in the plural. There's lots of ways of being a guy and showing up, and I think we could do a better job of asking men what their values and their virtues are.
[00:08:16] Rather than getting caught in relationship to traditional masculinity, how do you align or disalign? I think we could be a little bit more inductive about speaking to men about what they value, what's important to them. And I think building from there, because you're far more likely to get a strengths-based kind of approach. And it's not to Pollyanna the deficits that we carry and the vulnerabilities and the things that we should do better at and for. But it's to say that you're probably going to get better production and better outcomes when you work with the strengths that guys have and starting there and then addressing some of the things That maybe you wanna change over time or you might wanna adjust.
[00:08:57] Carol Eugene Park: So, I'm gonna use my brother for example. He's in his young twenties. He's, he's part of that, men should be X men should be Y men are not to X. And when it comes to just general health or mental health, the conversations I'm observing that he has with his friends, for example, are very much, men should be providers, we should not talk about our feelings.
[00:09:21] John Oliffe: Yeah
[00:09:22]
[00:09:22] Carol Eugene Park: And then as a sister, that relationships different. but in a romantic relationship setting, if you're talking to a young man who's got this like idea of. What he can or cannot say as a man, quote unquote. How do you navigate that?
[00:09:36] We want to ask questions, but they might have a barrier of, I can't share what I'm thinking or what I am feeling because I've been told on this part of the internet that a man is a provider and strong and never weak, et cetera.
[00:09:50] John Oliffe: Yeah. So, we interviewed, I think it was 115 guys across 15 countries, and they were 19 to 44 I wanna say, and lovely blokes. And we asked them about what an equitable, intimate partner relationship with, to your point, vast majority, they want to still be providers and protectors. Like they buy in on that very traditional piece. And if you think about it, in some ways that's quite honorable, but we were a bit surprised.
[00:10:16] We actually felt the world had moved on from that and its double income nowadays. And like it's all of that stuff. That traditional absent provider breadwinner that I grew up with, my dad. that's gone, but many of the guys still align to it. And I just think it's a wonderful reminder about how, as you are formulating identity, because up to 25, you're still forming that identity. You're trying to take from the pieces that you see that appeal to you, that talk to you, that your peers instill in you, So it's just, it's interesting because we so often revert to the behavioral pieces that guys do, and we say, that's just how he is
[00:10:55] And it's so interesting to me because structurally, we still enforce some of those things, right? We still have expectations that a guy is gonna be able to protect and provide like that. It gets set up in structures, and
[00:11:09] Young men are growing up in a world that's quite changed and there's some new things on the block in terms of harms risks around health for them that they buy into.
[00:11:20] Carol Eugene Park: Do you think we can navigate changing or helping them find a different perspective?
[00:11:26] John Oliffe: never underestimate your influence, because sometimes we just. Get into this space where we go, oh, guys, just, they're in a vacuum and just working out their masculinity.
[00:11:34] It shows up in this way and that's it. It's far from the truth. So, it's co-constructed. We can make a difference, and that's what gets us up in the morning as health researchers, The utopia of being able to make a difference in the lives of guys and by extension, everyone around them. A very simple acronym that I'd offer is called A.L.E.C.
[00:11:52] A, ask, you know, open-ended questions. This notion that guys don't talk is we know it's not true. We, we know if we do get those open-end questions, they will go, definitely.
[00:12:03] The L is to listen, and that's hard, right? Because we oftentimes wanna jump in and solve the problem and cut 'em off and go, hey, look, I, here's what I do. And really, it's about letting 'em go, giving them enough room to just lay it out there that.
[00:12:19] The E is about elaboration 'cause sometimes blokes will get a little bit just descriptive and just give you the B'S knees and wander off. But you can get 'em into a little bit of a space with some why and what questions that help them elaborate.
[00:12:33] And then the most important one is C. It's just check back in. 'cause when a guy has disclosed and actually had those deeper level conversations, a lot of us will come off going. I think I said too much. So that, so the normative frame is to get back in within 24 hours, whether it's a text, just go, really appreciate catching up with you mate, and love our chats. Let's, let's get it in the diary for a week's time and catch up or a month's time or whatever that check back in. it sounds elementary, but oftentimes we tend to go, out of privacy, or, he's not a talker, I won't push it. But we can greatly influence that ability to be able to talk.
[00:13:13] And it doesn't all have to be about the help; it can just be about the dialogue. And I think that A.L.E.C is a great one to remember for how we might wanna connect with the guys in our lives. And even more broadly, it's not a bad acronym for thinking about how we should show up just to be in the world in a way where we're learning from other people.
[00:13:32] Jeevan Sangha: It's funny that you say that's something that sounds a bit elementary, because I think oftentimes, we're just not taught those social scripts. Like we're not told directly, like, here's something we can do to help build connection or community. And I think that can be very isolating for people.
[00:13:48] John Oliffe: Agreed. And think about COVID and being locked down and.
[00:13:51] we lost some of that muscle as well. There's a kind of a relearning, but I, I agree with you. We're not taught, and I listen to podcasts obviously, and like small talk is hard and I was listening to one about small talk. I was going, I am making some rookie mistakes out there. It
[00:14:08] I see so many people just stand off each other and it's not because they don't want to connect. It's the how do I do this? and how do I not ask the basic question I think there's some anxiety with it, for sure, for a lot of us.
[00:14:19] Carol Eugene Park: Yeah. I saw this video on TikTok that was like, connection is just, many moments of awkward small talk and I was like, well, if you frame it like that, I don't want connection.
[00:14:29] John Oliffe: Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because like sometimes I'll talk myself into going to things and then come off afterwards going, I'm so glad I did that.
[00:14:38] So it takes a little bit of work. But yeah, I'm a firm believer if you can get. Oftentimes it's a really good connection and just an ability to be able to talk and chat and get out of your own head for a little while, I think is super important these days. just to say I feel your pain, but at the same time, I, I, I often have to will myself to be out there and I, I think it there is benefit to it for sure.
[00:15:01] Carol Eugene Park: Yeah, for sure. just to go back to the mental health support piece. Are there specific times or situations in men's lives where they do require additional support?
[00:15:14] John Oliffe: So, transition. It's as simple as that. So, the second biggest predictor of suicidality in men is relationship breakup.
[00:15:21] it's an interesting point in history. 50% of marriages end in divorce a guy who does divorce and separate. And a long-term relationship is 2.8 times more likely to suicide than the rest of the population. Male who are in a relationship, the most affected are guys under 34 years of age, the unemployed are also at risk and the lonely.
[00:15:45] And so an example of a transition. something that you might see coming or you might not, you might be the one who leaves, you might not. but irrespective the transition of moving out of what is often that solace of a partner who absorbs your feelings, experiences, and likewise you have a reciprocity and that going is huge.
[00:16:09] So guys will often shake it off, so to speak, to borrow from Taytay, but just to say, they're things that are so normative, but we know the trauma that goes with them is massive and guys do especially poorly with that. So that would be one.
[00:16:25] And I'd say other transitions if you think about leaving school and trying to move into the world of work, there's a lot of challenges with that. Or even moving from high school into university. We work with guys coming back from active service, like we're a veteran friendly campus, and a third of our clientele coming back from active service are women and two thirds’ men. So that rea acclimatization to civilian life, retirement, whatever. we know that there are flashpoints where there's gonna be some stresses and there's some strategies around reducing substance use, willing yourself to get connected socially.
[00:17:03] Carol Eugene Park: I just wanna follow up.
[00:17:05] but I can just hear.
[00:17:07] Certain people on the internet listening to this answer go, everyone goes through transitions.
[00:17:13] John Oliffe: Yeah.
[00:17:14] Carol Eugene Park: So, what is it about, like men in particular, or is or do we know why?
[00:17:20] John Oliffe: I think for many guys, routine and purpose is pretty key.
[00:17:25] and I think, look, many of us crave that, right? I think irrespective of gender, And I think when that gets disrupted and
[00:17:32] those transitions happen, they are adjustments right across identity, role, and relationship. And those three, that trifecta, I think just disrupts. And if guys aren't necessarily so good at reaching out and having a soft place to land and talk and be able to draw some comfort from others and some support,
[00:17:52] It isolates them. I often talk about three I's. It's injury, interiority, and isolation.
[00:17:59] So injury. Whatever that transition is like, we tend to explain it away. We think we should just get over it. We probably don't. And over time in your life, it accumulates, so cumulative injury.
[00:18:10] And then the interiority the general rule of thumb for guys is they'll look inward to solve their own problems because that would be, less weak. Like the problem, if you can solve it, makes you reasonable. But if you have a problem, you can't solve and you need help, like there, there's that indebtedness and weakness that goes with that. And so, the concealments with that are massive. Then the isolation will be to isolate within the problem, and it's a problem that you don't have the resources to solve internally.
[00:18:38] Jeevan Sangha: And going back to when you were working in the hospital, perhaps with some reluctant male patients, folks who are less comfortable sharing exactly what their symptoms are, exactly what they're feeling mentally. To what extent were you trained to approach those conversations, and do you think that has changed for medical practitioners over time?
[00:18:59] John Oliffe: Yeah, back in my day, the triage was entirely about the physical. Rarely did you get the room or make the room probably to get those deeper conversations about what was going on mental health wise.
[00:19:13] still, the number of inpatient beds that we've got are very low, the criteria by which to get in, very demanding.
[00:19:19] Just to say we didn't do a great job of it historically. I would love to think that it's changed. I would love to think that because we've got a conversation about how the physical and mental is connected, that we would always be able to ask a couple of questions that might give us a better handle on how folks are showing up.
[00:19:36] And I'd say the same of research in my own world. We often disaggregate people's lives like, we'll, I'll go in talking to them about, oh, I wanted to talk to you about prostate cancer, and they're actually talking to me about all the things that go on in and around prostate cancer and that's anxiety and that's depression.
[00:19:54] And so we, I think clinically in the specialist services, we have a tendency to do that as well. We're just focused on one particular system. But I would love to think we are getting better at having that broader conversation about mental health implications of all of the things that people show up with that might be the presenting symptoms.
[00:20:13] And there's always that lovely moment where in general practice when you talk to a guy and they'll talk to you about this stress, they'll never talk to you about depression, bit stressed. And then just that follow up, open-ended question can get you into a better frame for what's actually going on with their mental health. So, I'd love to think we're doing a better job of that. And I think community wise, I think for the guys in your life, I think we can all do a better job of just asking those open-end A.L.E.C kind of questions to get a bit of a deeper dive on it.
[00:20:44] Carol Eugene Park: Boy have I heard, I'm stressed a lot of times from dudes. I'm like, what are you actually talking about.
[00:20:50] John Oliffe: And there you are. And so, what a great open-ended question. What are you actually talking about? Let's get into it. And look, I think there's a long history of the being at the bar, the superficial chat about the game, and, uh, never getting too deep on it and never burdening your mates and moving on and don't bring the party down.
[00:21:09] I overheard in a sushi shop the other day. a really lovely conversation, it was three workers. First responders and they were actually talking about the anxiety that goes with the job and what research says about their anxiety and how they're mitigating it.
[00:21:26] And I thought how great, they're young blokes. And again, I'd love to think we're moving the needle on how we speak and how we talk and the depth we get. Because I, I do think it satiates us. I think we need some of that 'cause I don't think social media gives it to us. I think that connection of a deeper conversation, I think it's lovely if you can get it and just that permission to do it.
[00:21:48] Carol Eugene Park: So, onto your work specifically at UBC, what is the Men's Health program and what is its mission?
[00:21:56] John Oliffe: Yeah, it's 20 some years old. It's me, the website, and I've got some amazing people that keep me in a job. Nina, who runs the whole show, and I just get to dream up things that we think we might want to do and then we write grants and we pitch the ideas.
[00:22:12] And sometimes when we are lucky, we get the ability to do the work that we propose and, and that's about 15% of the time, and we work in areas that we see as emergent and important for men's health. We've always done the relational kind of work, and so we're very much interested in making a difference.
[00:22:29] The intervention point might be guys, but the difference will be for everybody. And That’s actually the truth of the matter, like with gender relations. So, we know we can make a difference.
[00:22:39] So working through those grants, and so we, we do the traditional stuff, we do the publication piece because that's important in terms of conveying what we find and honoring the stories.
[00:22:50] We do a lot of work where we actually talk to men, so we're quite qualitative. We do a lot of work around photo voice, where we ask guys to take photographs and talk about photographs that depict their experiences because we find when they talk in the third person, it actually opens them up a little bit more.
[00:23:06] Might be a bit of a tip for when they're scrolling through their phone with you and showing you a picture you might say. Can you say a bit more about that photo? Like it actually, it's lovely. It works really well. So yeah, so we are working in those directions. So, it's been mental health, it's been things around substance use, certainly around tobacco, and prostate cancer early on.
[00:23:25] So yeah, that's the men's health research program and we do try to do outreach. When anyone asks us to talk, we will show up and we'll chat with you, and we like to chat. It gets us from behind our computers at least partially to be able to do things a little bit differently.
[00:23:43] Jeevan Sangha: And are there any key projects or programs that you're working on now that you're particularly excited about or any areas of interest that you're excited to begin working on?
[00:23:53] John Oliffe: So, we've got a couple of grants that are in review. One is, one is a big one that's proposing to work across six countries with 15 programs, all of them dedicated to reducing suicide in males. and we're hopeful of getting that through in a way where we could galvanize the field to learn from each other.
[00:24:14] Because much of our work, we tend to be a bit siloed. We tend to know what we are doing, but not what each other's doing. And that's a little unfortunate So we'll tell the world what we are doing, but maybe colleagues, we won't necessarily be really keyed to what each other's doing. So, we're trying to do a better job of that.
[00:24:31] And fun fact, I've been enamored with the non-alcoholic beer in recent times, and the biggest growth market in brewing is non-alcoholic beer. And it's largely because men 30, yeah, 30 to 44 aren't drinking full alcoholic beer,
[00:24:48] Anyway, I was caught in the idea that perhaps it means that we are moving away from alcohol, and then more broadly we're moving away from substances. That's the number one predictor of a guy with suicidality will be substance use, alcohol use. And so, we're very keen to understand that from an empirical sense about, okay, if this, if there's this demand for non-alcoholic beer, does it mean that other substances aren't being used? Or does it mean that booze is just old fashioned and we've moved on to some other substances, especially with these young men.
[00:25:22] So that, that's one of our, one of our grants that's in review that we're hopeful of doing the work 'cause I'd love to understand that. Because at first pass, I was so buoyed by the idea that maybe we weren't gonna do the substances that previous generations had done, which I think would be so great. But they need an empirical base. And of course, the research you get at a lot of it's marketing research. And it's about product and sales, and that's different to a question about, okay, if you're in the non-alcoholic space and you are consuming that. You just doing more beer or with it, or are you onto other substances?
[00:25:59] And then California sober, so to speak, as in you're in a different place. So, we're very keen on, on trying to understand some of those emergent pieces. That would be, that's one of my little pet projects at the moment, having converted to non-alcoholic beer myself, and it's been quite interesting. Yeah,
[00:26:17] Carol Eugene Park: that's really neat. I didn't really think. About that correlation. Well, that's cool. As a researcher, as a scientist, as a professor, are there any men's health resources that you would recommend people, men, loved ones who have men in their lives to read, consume?
[00:26:35] John Oliffe: Yeah, absolutely. I really like Heads Up Guys. So, it runs out of UBC, psychiatry, and we back in the day, helped build that with money from Movember. So, they get about 75,000 unique visitors every month, which is just huge, and it's got a lovely section for supporters of men. It gives you the opportunity to self-evaluate with a depression screening tools, I think, which is really helpful. Got a lovely directory of resources outside of this particular website.
[00:27:07] So if you were looking for a clinician. There would be lots of choices there about how you would contact them and that would name them, and you could probably do a deep dive and see who you were gonna go and talk to. So, I think that's part of the mystique that we want to open up. So, Heads Up Guys, I think has been just, it's still one of my favorites.
[00:27:26] I think Jake Stika does some great work with Next Gen Men out of BC as well, and he's in schools and community spaces, having the conversations with boys and young men about what it is to be a man right at the moment, and the masculinities piece around that. And I think that's lovely because I think there's an opportunity to have those conversations with boys early on and help them think about how they're showing up in the world.
[00:27:50] So there'd be a couple that, that I just think are so great. And of course. For us as well, the mental health research program. It's well worth checking in with us. We're, we've always got new things popping up that are of interest to folks and even participation in our research. We, we really are dedicated to talking to people as part of what we do.
[00:28:10] We get a lot of people contact us and want to work with us and be volunteers while they're here at UBC and things like that. So again, just reach out, always interested to, to shoot the breeze and to support folks who are. Have an interest and engage them in the work. do appreciate you reaching out and I, and your thoughtful question. It's been delightful.
[00:28:31] I've had a joy this morning.
[00:28:32] Carol Eugene Park: Thank you for saying that on air.
[00:28:34] John Oliffe: Oh, we captured that.
[00:28:35] Carol Eugene Park: Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. As we enter into the colder seasons.
[00:28:40] It's more important than ever to check in with the men in our lives.
[00:28:43] Jeevan Sangha: and starting the conversation. It can be intimidating at first, but as John taught us, there's tools available like using the acronym A.L.E.C. Ask open-ended questions, listen, elaborate, and check back in.
[00:28:54] Carol Eugene Park: And if you're anything like me, you're not so good at listening, and you're not so good at elaborating when you have brothers who don't wanna talk about their feelings. And so, the check back in, I think, is going to be really critical for people like me. Anyway, thanks for listening, everyone. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're filling your feels, please drop us a review. You can find me on Blue Sky at Carol Eugene Park,
[00:29:20] Jeevan Sangha: and me on Twitter at Jeevan k. Sangha From here forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Kylé McPhedran from Podium Podcast Company.