Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Anja: Joining me today is Katie Ananina,
more famously known as Katie the Russian.
Katie was the founder of Plan B
and has recently acquired Citizen
X. Katie, welcome to the show.
Katie: Thank you.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.
We finally found the time
with our non-overlapping,
non-overlapping time zones.
Anja: Yes, exactly.
I really appreciate it and yeah,
especially knowing that you have a family
and you're trying to squeeze me in.
Thank you so much for that.
Um, but I wanted to start with maybe let's
kick off with, you know, uh, an overview
of what it is that Citizen X does.
Katie: Yeah.
So.
Very quickly, six years ago, uh, out
of my own passion and out of me just
constantly shit posting to Bitcoiners
on Twitter, telling that everybody
needs a second passport, I basically
realized that over time I gained
expertise and I gained following.
And, uh, people wanted to come
to me and ask for a product,
which I didn't have at the time.
So, out of this passion, um.
Was born Plan B, passport.
And then I was running this business for a
while and just this year, early this year,
I was acquired by Citizen X, which was my
probably closest competitor at the time,
at least in terms of the, our beliefs and
our principles, um, in this, in industry.
So now I'm a CMO of Citizen X,
where we help people all over the
world to obtain second citizenship.
We basically see citizenship as
an asset class, a new asset class.
Um, and of course as a hedge against
government overreach, uh, your emergency
plan in terms of like in case of a
civil unrest or any, any sort of crisis.
So that's what we help people do.
We help them to obtain second citizenship
or residency for their benefit.
Anja: Awesome.
And I'd love to, before we get
into, you know, the, the work that
you do, I'd love to know more about
your history and your early life.
So.
Born and bred in Russia.
Katie: Yeah.
Yeah.
Born and raised there.
All the experiences that I had in
my, I would say even childhood,
kinda led me to be AER since I was,
so when I was nine I started sailing
and this hobby got out of hands.
By the age of 11 I got into
Russian national team, so I started
traveling the world with the team.
All paid by Russian government.
You know, like I'm on a national team,
I'm being invited to Europe for European
cap, and my Visa is getting denied.
And because I'm Russian, I
have a very weak passport in
terms of visa free travel.
I need to constantly obtain visas.
I'm constantly getting
denied in this Visas, which.
Really weird because I'm like a teenager
traveling with a coach and an entire
national team, and somehow I'm the one
getting rejected in Visas constantly.
So I don't know.
Um, I was chosen to do this work early on.
And then the same experiences
in the world of finance, um, of
like seeing the currency in my
national currency devalue over time.
So significantly, like two
hyperinflations in my lifetime by
the age of 25, like something is off.
And all this experiences basically
led me to become a Bitcoin
and to become a passport lady.
Um, so yeah, I was, it
was, it was meant to be.
I just needed to learn enough about
both of those concepts in order for
it to click and it clicked pretty
quickly because again, I was, I was
prepared for all that I was, I was.
Black pilled on the
financial system early on.
Anja: Yeah.
And, and that's kind of also been my
experience as well throughout life.
Um, you know, people who come from
countries with, you know, political
unrest and have experienced things like
hyperinflation, it's kind of instills,
um, a sense of fragility in the.
Him from a very young age and yeah, even
though I was, you know, not responsible
for the family money at the time, I
do vividly remember, um, going to the
shop with like million dollar notes
to buy bread and then the next month.
You know, it wasn't enough and we
had to use, I think, the German
currency as a store of value.
So people would sort of exchange that.
That was the, the closest currency to us.
Um, you know, regionally was, did
Russia use like a different currency
as well as a store of value?
I
Katie: mean, we were under, under
the iron curtain, so it's not that
we could have easy access to, let's
say dollars or anything like that.
Um, yeah, so in, in a sense, like in the
time of hyperinflation, people always
tried to buy metal and real estate.
We were in a communism, so it's not
that you could just go on a free
market and randomly buy real estate.
That's not how it worked.
So people would just hold their
fiat under the mattress and uh, this
fiat would just literally disappear.
You know what's funny?
People like us, like even
if you didn't experience it
firsthand, you have this DNA.
Like it's in your DNA because
your parents, your grandparents
experienced it and then they
passed down those experiences.
And if you look at the Bitcoin community,
especially girls in the Bitcoin
community, it's like you, me, Carla
from Romania, Natalie from Poland, like.
So many girls who have
Eastern European roots.
Um, and part of it is probably because
again, we have those stories that will
stick with us from few more generations
until, until we forget like generational
trauma that made us Bitcoiners.
So yeah, that I can definitely see that.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
That is so relatable.
Um, but yeah, more about on, on
your business side of things.
So just to give you a bit of an overview,
Australia is very divided at the moment.
Um, we've got a lot of the population
thinking that we are headed towards
being like right wing extremists
and some people are referencing
the us, other people are thinking.
Uh, that, you know, we're turning towards
left stream le le left-wing extremism
and are following, you know, UK's path
and are losing our national identity.
And there's a lot of, lot of division.
And I know Australia similar to like,
America is a very patriotic country.
So, um, seeing opinions online about
this sort of thing, you know, if
someone's looking to leave Australia
for another country, it can trigger
some very strong emotions from people.
There's a guy that I
follow, he's Australian.
Um, I follow him on Instagram, I
think his name is Matt Cameron.
And he talks about this like how
he left, um, Australia with his
family to build a life in Indonesia
because it had a lot less red tape.
The taxation was much
better, better quality life.
You get Australian beef, which is
very important for Australians.
Um, there.
And it was just, you know, a,
a good healthcare system if
you can afford it privately.
Um.
And, you know, I love following his
post because he will say deliberately
provocative and controversial things,
and I'll go to the comment section and
some people are like, you are a hero.
Love what you're doing.
We are thinking of doing the
same and other people are good.
We don't need you.
If you don't take, you know, Australia
as you know, a country, you are lucky to
be here, then, then we don't need you.
So what is the main
motivation of your clients?
For, for moving?
Katie: Yeah.
I'd say about 80% of my clients
are not actually relocating mo.
The majority of my clients are preparing
their plan B in case things get worse.
Some of them are already extremely
unhappy with their home country and
they want to relocate, but there are
things like parents are still alive and
need support, or kids are currently in
school and you don't wanna switch it.
Like there are certain factors
that keeping them where they're at.
But majority of clients are still.
Thinking that it's, it's, it makes
sense for them to stay where they at,
either for opportunities, friends,
lifestyle, whatever it is, but
hedging against things getting worse.
And that's where the name Plan
B Passport originally came from.
Because I didn't necessarily
want to be a relocation service.
I truly wanted for people to
realize that you can't have
all your eggs in one basket.
You can't.
Like, I don't want the government to
have monopoly over anybody because
that's what makes them capable of
doing things like government overreach.
Because you have no optionality,
you have no choices.
So only 3% of people leave outside
of the country they were born in.
Um, right now, probably a little
more, but that basically means your
government a 97% monopoly over you.
If you lack optionality, of course
you will stick with your only
option and you'll withstand whatever
government overreach is happening.
So my original, my original
message was, get yourself a second
passport, a plan B passport,
hedge against geopolitical, unres.
Civil unrest in your country, et cetera.
But then also COVID hit, right?
And that's when people were like,
okay, let's see how our country's
gonna go through COVID, which
Australia didn't do that well.
'cause that's great of a job.
And I've seen a huge wave of
Australians being unhappy with
how the country handled it.
And that also made people realize that.
A lot more of their life is
actually remote than they thought.
And that's when relocation became,
became a bigger thing in the world.
And people started to consider places
like Latin America as their first
choice, or Indonesia became huge, right?
Because.
You can afford a very solid
lifestyle for much less.
Um, yes, sometimes it takes effort
and it takes time to build out this
lifestyle, but it's very doable.
And then on top of it, you, you kind of.
You, you, you can optimize based on
the jurisdiction you, you choose.
You can optimize your taxes, you can
optimize the healthcare you receive,
you can optimize for the community you
are a part of, and then the lifestyle.
So people started executing on their
relocation as well, but the majority
is still just getting a Plan B passport
in case the western world or whatever
first world countries are moving in a
direction that you are uncomfortable with.
Anja: Yeah.
And I remember you saying in different
podcasts that you believe that, you know,
in time long term that countries will
start competing for their citizens and
they will try to actively make things
more favorable for, you know, people
to relocate to, to their, their country
because of their policies and their
laws and their taxation or whatnot.
Um, but do you see the transition
there being, uh, potentially.
Things getting worse
before they get better.
Like, I keep hearing news of different
countries trying to implement like
citizenship based tax and it's like,
just really like locking down the border.
Um, what, what do you think is gonna
happen kind of over the next 10 years?
Katie: So, yeah, the, the
immigration policies of the world
will kind of get weird for a while.
I, I could, I could see that happening.
So, just to give you an example
that is relatable to you, Australia
has always been a very desirable
place for immigration, right?
I think it's like in the, in the top four
of professional immigration, meaning that
highly skilled professionals are seeking
opportunities through legal immigration
in Australia and um, Australia.
Importing lots of talent, which
talent is, uh, is a, it's a
big reason for immigration.
That's, that's why the cool countries
wanna stay cool to attract the talent.
Well then we can see, an example
was the uk, which was also a very
desirable immigration place to the
extent that everybody was flooding
there and then they kind of.
Weakened down their immigration
policies, and now the rich are living.
So at some point, if you open up the
borders too much, the the local citizens
who actually do contribute the giant tax
and who are bringing jobs and who are,
um, bringing lots of value, at least in
a monetary sense, uh, they start leaving.
So.
Before we get to the point where it's
truly a free market pay to play, pay,
and by pay to play, I don't only mean
financially, but with your talent too,
like merit-based immigration, it, it will
have to get weird at some jurisdictions
because we are still experimenting
in what it's like because what only.
The last 40 years, immigration was
actually that possible before that.
Like we still, we do a lot of
citizenship by descent, so we see
like ship manifests and I'm realizing
this, people spend 35 days on a ship
to immigrate to the United States.
So like, it wasn't as easy as getting on
a plane and, and go on places and, uh,
getting a remote job or finding it online.
So.
The historically things are
changing very quickly right now
compared to what it was before.
And uh, it definitely gets weird and
gets interesting to me, um, just because
that's, that's what I live and breathe.
So I'm a huge fan of investment
based migration because it's truly.
A free market competition, free market,
capitalism of nation states where
people are willing to bring their
capital or donate to the country in
order to become a citizen or resident.
That's just.
Monetary exchange is always the
easiest, um, transaction, right.
I pay, I get, um, that's, that's
the simplest exchange there is.
And then there is a merit-based
immigration, which is, that's how
I immigrated to the United States.
I was a professional athlete.
The United States thought that
I was good enough to compete for
America, and they gave me green card.
So then we have a skill-based immigration,
merit-based immigration, and then we
have lots of other things such as.
Um, let's say political asylums
and then that gets weird
because who are the judges?
What geopolitical opinion is your
currently country currently in?
And the good example of
that would be El Salvador.
El Salvador has 6 million people
living in the country and 3 million
Salvador living in the United States
because over the last 40 years.
There was a civil war in in the
country, and they all fled the
country because it was dangerous.
And the United States
said, okay, come on in.
Political asylum case.
Well now the country has become
one of the safest countries
in the Western hemisphere.
And how are these cases gonna
be judged Now the things have
changed so significantly, but those
people lived here for 20 years.
This is their home country
now, although not on paper.
So like the geopolitics changes
the whole game of political asylum.
And then the countries
misaligned on their, on their.
Directions or they align
back on their directions.
And like a lot of, lots of Russians
could get political asylum in the us.
Well, kind of not anymore.
That just depends on what's happening.
So that's always a dangerous play.
Um, and like not the
ideal scenario, basically.
Never an ideal scenario.
And it also being.
Overly used because like, were
you actually in danger there or
did you just want a better life?
And, uh, that's who are the judges again.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
Seems like you're having
to play geopolitical chess.
Katie: Yeah.
Anja: Um, yeah.
But do, do you do
citizenships and residencies?
Katie: Yeah, so we, our core business
is definitely citizenship by investment,
and I truly believe that in the next
10 years, more and more countries
will keep offering citizenship through
investment programs because again,
that's the simplest transaction,
simplest value exchange money for, uh,
being able to call yourself a citizen.
And the United States, uh, just
launched their Trump card, which.
You know, the United States is still
one of the, the great leaders of, of
showing the world what's acceptable.
So once they launched the Trump card,
it's kind of like a green light for
many small nations to say, that's
fine, you can sell your citizenship.
'cause we do, and Trump card
is a residency program like ci,
um, residency through investment
with a pass to citizenship.
So that's also a product on the market.
Some nations, um, offer a golden
visa, which is usually investment
based path to residency and then path
to naturalization to become citizen.
And then on top of it, there are lots
of cheaper immigration options, right?
So the reason citizenship by investment
and residency by investments are so
valuable because again, you don't wanna
deal with years of bureaucracy, with
years of being required to live in the
country full time with months of not
being able to leave the country because
you're going through immigration process.
You truly just want to simplify it
to a transaction and get it done.
If you are just looking for relocation
and you are moving with your family
to leave full-time, there are nearly
free programs, especially when you're
coming from a first world country.
If you can show a solid salary coming from
Australia, you'll be most likely welcome
on a Financial Solvency residency, uh,
program, almost anywhere in Latin America.
A lot of European countries will
give you digital nomad visa because
you have this external income
coming from your home country.
So that's pretty easy.
The problem is, will it ever
lead you to citizenship?
Not everywhere.
It's a lot of paperwork.
You are in a constant bureaucratic,
bureaucratic process, but it
like, it's a good tool for many.
So yeah, we, we offer all of these.
We just don't offer all the
countries because our audience is
not interested in all the countries.
And I see some other firms, they
will be offering completely like
180 degrees from what we offer.
Um, for example, Australia has a startup.
We like startup Immigration Path
New Zealand does to investor path.
And in six years of running the business,
I remember maybe one client coming to
me and saying, I would be interested
in moving to Australia, maybe two.
So for me it's a different
type of audience.
Lots of Australians seeking
a Plan B passport right now.
Anja: Yeah, that's interesting.
So yeah, if just to recap what you
said, there's more Australians wanting
to leave Australia than come here
Katie: in my audience, definitely.
Yes.
Anja: Yeah, interesting.
Katie: And I understand that
Australia is still very desirable
place for immigration, but within
my audience, I see lots and lots of
Australians moving elsewhere, and I
just spent six weeks in El Salvador.
Anja: Yeah,
Katie: and I feel like I've met the
most, the amount of experts that I've
met in El Salvador were Australians.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah, I, yeah, I can completely
understand why that would be the case.
While you were there, did you try
the beef from beef bag better?
Katie: I bought.
So like I reached out to them two weeks
ahead of my time landing in El Salvador.
'cause I was like, I need a
grass fed beef for my family.
That's like the core of
our diet for the family.
So I landed on Saturday morning.
Sunday morning, I came to the
farmer's market and picked up like
40 pounds of beef from the guys.
So yeah, I really appreciated that.
Anja: Nice.
Yeah, that was founded by an
Australian and I believe it's now sold.
I don't know to whom, but yeah.
Um, that was one of the questions
that we had from the, um, community.
Um, but yeah, going back to your service.
Um, so in terms of your clientele, is
the majority, I assume, high net worth
individuals or do you have some like
lower to middle class income families
as well that are looking to move?
Katie: So if you looked at our
industry overall, it used to be for
ultra high net worth individuals only.
Now we have citizenship programs
at a hundred thousand dollars
check for a family of four,
which is a price of a car, right?
Like a price of a higher like yeah.
Middle class, sometimes family even.
So a lot more people
can, can afford that now.
Bitcoiners who are by no
mean, like the wealthy of the
wealthy, but they stacked hard.
They stack sad, uh, and they huddled
strong and they're capable of spending
one Bitcoin on a passport like that.
So I would say it's becoming
democratized, but it is also like.
It is a tool not for everybody.
Like it doesn't make sense to spend
your first a hundred thousand dollars
of savings on a passport because there
are higher priorities in life sometimes,
and uh, you should consider that.
But once you cross, probably like
$5 million net worth, I would say
definitely makes sense to, uh, to hedge
and to find yourself a plan B passport.
Speaker 3: Need a way to sign, verify
and secure your Bitcoin Australia's
one-stop shop for Bitcoiners.
Has you covered from signing
devices, nodes, and backup solutions?
To bid access day decor and
apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au.
Anja: Yeah.
So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So how long, like, should a person plan in
advance in terms of like the application
process and the whole thing to get set up?
Katie: Usually it takes about
seven to 15 months to actually
get a passport in your hands.
And I would say it takes a lot of
prior thinking and that's what where
I step in and try to help, try to
brainstorm together with them of like,
what are the actual attack vectors?
Because I always say that the flag theory,
right, the, this concept of limiting your
dependency on any one particular state.
It is a security model and just like in
every security model you have to analyze
your attack vectors, your threats in
order to optimize your security structure
to your customized needs and goals.
And that's the first thing we do.
Like why exactly are you doing it?
What are you trying to achieve?
What's your family composition?
And then.
We know the market, so we know
what the market has to offer, and
they will tell you, okay, for your
scenario, I would consider this
option, this option, and that option.
They're in different, you
know, wallet size or timelines.
Are you in a rush, et cetera.
We analyze all that and we come
up with the best jurisdiction for
you, and then we execute, which
again, usually takes between six
to 15 months is a good estimate.
Anja: Yeah, if I was gonna put my
typical Australian hat on, I would say
probably the attack vector or the biggest
concern would be a big government.
We have one of the biggest
governments in the world, and we
know that can lead to all sorts of
weird and wonderful, uh, problems.
So.
That would definitely be a major concern.
Um, a major requirement for Australians
would be good healthcare, good
beef and small government, low
regulation, reasonable taxation.
So what are some of the options,
um, that kind of fit that criteria?
Katie: Well, in today's world, I'd say
El Salvador definitely matches that.
Uh, you guys get your surfing.
There too, which is a big one.
You already had the Australian guys
running the beef farm right there.
And then in terms of like, in terms of
medical system, let's say they have a
private and a public sector, which I
actually really like this, this mix.
Uh, I grew up in Russia where we had this
mix too, and I hate the fully socialistic.
Um.
Structure of medical system because
then I know there's no efficiency and
there's no optionality and no choices.
But I also hate the medical system of the
US that is run by insurance companies, um,
because then the, the check is just rising
by like four x absolutely unnecessary.
If you go to Latin America, there's
almost always a mixture of public
and private health, and private
being a very high quality and.
High quality service also, which
means that you can get an appointment
tomorrow and get whatever you need
done, uh, based on how you want it done.
And then your pay out of pocket will be
like 10% of my copay in the United States.
Even so insurance covers it.
So, um, it's, it's a very good mixture.
And then, um, there are some certain
medical tourism countries like Costa Rica,
Panama, Mexico, they become the centers
for medical tourism, which means a very
solid, good clinics coming with investment
and building very solid services.
And the same we're seeing
in El Salvador right now.
There are great dental clinics that
popped up in the last five years.
And, uh, there is demand,
so the supply is coming too.
Um, so that's a good option.
But almost anywhere in Latin America,
the medical system would be good
because the private is so affordable.
Um, especially if you have
Australian celery, let's say.
Now, what else did you mention?
Beef?
Well, Argentina,
Anja: yes.
Katie: Parkay and Beef Bag.
Better in El Salvador.
That will be the three options,
but I also spend lots of time in
Mexico and I found a really good.
Local meat shop and I was
extremely happy with my beef there.
And I was eating raw beef for four months
in a row, like fully raw, never got sick.
So, uh, pretty high quality.
You if you search, you can find.
Um, what else did you mention?
Small governments.
Anja: Yeah.
I just wanted to ask you quickly on
the Mexico, because that is never like
one of the countries that is discussed.
We usually discuss Paraguay Panama.
Those two countries seem to
really pop up and El Salvador,
but I feel like that wave.
Of El Salvador was probably more
popular going back four years ago.
Now it's more Panama and Para
where they keep popping up.
But Mexico is an interesting one
because, um, I think the first
association most people will have in
Australia with Mexico is the crime rate.
There were two, two Australians
recently, I think a year or two ago,
murdered there on, on a holiday.
So I think that kind of might,
yeah, put a lot of people off.
Katie: Yeah.
And uh, in the United States, that's
what people think about the moment.
You say Mexico too.
I spent almost a year there, was
constantly traveling to Mexico
and it was in the COVID times.
Um, I felt safe, but
I wasn't being stupid.
So you have to, you have to
watch yourself there for sure.
Um, and you don't play stupid games.
Um, but also you're not at risk if you're
not trying, trying to run local business.
You know, your for foreigner
was an online income.
You're probably safe forever.
Um, but yeah, Mexico has been, I feel like
while many countries in Latin America are
on a rise, I can't say that about Mexico.
So, um.
Maybe.
Maybe worth, worth noticing that.
Anja: Yeah.
But it's beautiful.
Yeah.
Um, yep.
But yeah, just going back to the
small government, low regulation,
reasonable taxation, would you also
say that a lot of the South American
countries kind of fit that bill?
Katie: Not too many, but yeah, so
Panama, I was not a fan of Panama.
I always thought Panama
was, uh, in bed, was the us.
Um, it like, I, it just didn't get
me excited for a very long time.
But just lately, very lately, like
in the last six months, I'm starting
to become more curious about that.
So I'll definitely be watching
what's happening in Panama.
Um, but yet again, um.
I haven't been bullish this whole time.
Um, El Salvador, I'm very bullish just
because I did my research very deeply.
I spent so much time there
and I was feet on the ground.
I saw how the regulation
changes towards the free market.
They basically said, look,
for 40 years, we had nothing.
Nothing is built.
We need people to come and get that done.
And like as a, as a government,
we can't move that quickly.
So let's open up the free market,
let's let people do what they
want to do, and guess what?
It works.
People actually come and
build beautiful things.
So I firsthand experienced that, um,
that like if you wanna do something
else Salvador, and you find the
regulation that is on your way.
There is a way to change it very
quickly, like you can make it happen.
Like for example, home birth used
to be prohibited in El Salvador and
that like changes very quickly and
people can do it now, and the midwife
midwifery is, uh, you can be a licensed
midwife there and all those things.
Um, it used to be much harder.
The whole medical freedom is
becoming a big movement in El
Salvador and because there's demand.
They are changing rapidly.
Their policies, obviously same
happening with Bitcoin banks right now.
They made Bitcoin legal tender and
the financial institution said,
look, we know that you say it's
money, but the regulatory environment
for banking to actually exchange
dollars to Bitcoin is not friendly.
So they changed.
They made the Bitcoin bank law.
Same going for ai.
They're trying to be the most
AI friendly jurisdiction.
So like, you know, Tesla, there are
very few jurisdiction where you can use
full self-driving, um, in the world.
And I'm a huge fan of
this full self-driving.
As a mom with two kids needing snacks
on the back, I can just turn it at at
the pilot and I know that I'm safe.
Like me thinking that other
Juris jurisdictions are
against, it blows my mind.
So El Salvador did an AI policy, which
is very open to, uh, new technology.
So they're basic like that.
I know firsthand that I experienced that.
Yeah, if you wanna build something
and a regulation is on your way, find
your way to reach the right people
and you can help to change it quickly.
Um.
Argentina, I'm super
curious for many reasons.
Um, and yet I feel like there's so
much internal drama going on that
they can't change things rapidly.
So I'm watching very closely.
I'm very curious.
Uh, part y seem to be on a, on an
interesting path too, so, um, I'm
definitely paying attention there.
Yeah.
Let's, let's see how that plays out.
Anja: Yeah.
Interesting.
And the other thing as well, I'm curious,
like with El Salvador, like, I don't
expect you to know this, but I am not
really fully across as to how many,
how long B B's been in in office for
and for how long that would continue.
And if his approval rating is
still as high as it was, you
know, when he first hit the scene.
Um, do, do you know much about that?
Like.
Katie: Yeah, so he was just reelected for
his second term, uh, last year, I believe.
And, um, in 2007, 27, I believe
there will be a vote to be able to
approve him running for a third term.
So currently it is not, it is not
acceptable, but there will be, uh, a
vote to allow him to do that, uh, and
they will see if that's possible or not.
Anja: Yeah, that, that's great to know.
Um, and now I just wanted to talk to
you a little bit about motherhood.
So as you can imagine,
Bitcoin is in Australia.
We're going through a baby boom.
People are having their second, their
first, a lot of people are pregnant.
Um, I'd love to know more from you
in terms of what your experience
as a mother in a Bitcoin has
been and what's kind of the.
Katie: Yeah, I feel like I'm, well.
I'm definitely in the Bitcoin bubble.
I moved to the United States as
a 21-year-old who didn't speak
the language, didn't have any
connections or family here.
Got into Bitcoin very early on in
my immigration journey, so all the
friends I acquired are Bitcoiners.
I have no friends that are
outside of this bubble, and now
we're all having kids together.
Like yesterday, I went out
with four of my girlfriends.
We're literally all pregnant.
I'm pregnant with my third,
some of them with their seconds.
And yeah, our families are grow
like we, we procreate very quickly.
Um, so it's really nice to have
this community, like once you.
Once you go through motherhood,
you truly need other moms around.
And Bitcoin community
definitely provides that.
We have Bitcoin Moms Group
chat on Telegram that is
pretty awesome and active.
Um, I have a local community of
Bitcoin moms here in Austin, Texas.
And um, it's wonderful.
It's definitely the support system
many moms need, but not always get.
Um, and uh, I definitely, I definitely
have that support system and truly.
Truly appreciate that.
We also have very similar parenting
style, mothering style, like many of us
are opting out of, uh, let's say hospital
birth even, or like painkillers during,
during the childbirth and all of the.
Is fed by the low time preference.
Like if we talk about labor, I
truly believe that unmedicated
birth is easier on the mother.
And in the moment you don't believe
that you want every painkiller
there is, but then I believe
the recovery is gonna be harder.
The actual labor is harder on the body.
Yes.
You don't feel it.
You'll pay that bill later.
Um, so we all choose unmedicated home
birth because again, we believe that
low time preference, this is what's
better for, for me and for the baby.
So the similar choices come from similar
principles that are also fed by Bitcoin.
Um, and, um, that's been convenient
and comfortable to be able to talk
about these things with other mothers.
Um, and then we all noticed that
our diets are literally the same.
Like in the group chat we just discussed.
I say, well, my kids really love rice, and
in order to like feel better about giving
them rice, I just boil it in a bone broth.
I said it in a group chat and like
every mother was like, me too, me too.
We never discussed it, but because
we are on a similar diet, we do
the same things for our kids.
So, um, it's almost funny
how similarly we think.
Anja: Yeah, that, that,
that's a great tip.
Um, but the group that you
mentioned on Telegram, is that
like an open global group for
moms, or is it more localized and
Katie: that one is definitely open.
I created a, because I like, there was
a big baby boom on Twitter and I was
like, man, everybody's having babies.
And I was, at the time, I think pregnant
was my second and I just invited all
the moms into the telegram group chat.
So if anybody wants an
invite, you guys are welcome.
Just reach out to my dms on Twitter.
Anja: I'm sure you're gonna
get a few requests there.
Um, before we wrap up, Katie, is
there anything else you wanna say?
Katie: Well, um.
One thing that I feel is very important
in the flag theory world that has
not been discussed is the tribe.
And again, just like I discussed how
important it was, um, for me to find other
Bitcoin moms with similar principles,
this is the thing that shouldn't be
overlooked when you're locating right, you
are moving to a different jurisdiction.
There are reasons you're moving there.
And if you have a community
of people who think the same.
It'll be very easy for you to find
your new lifestyle and build your
new style lifestyle with the tips
of those that think similarly.
So that's why, um, I believe El
Salvador is so easy for Bitcoiners to
move to because we think similarly,
similarly, like it's only been what,
four months since El Salvador got
on, got on our Raiders, yet I get
there and I need my sourdough and my.
Grass fed beef and Bitcoiners already
built it because again, they knew
that there will be demand for that.
And they built it ahead of time for
all of us to come and appreciate it.
So, um, this like, this is an
important thing to have the tribe,
and tribe is another flag, uh, in your
citizenship residency, bank account,
offshore trust, and the tribe, um,
to be, to have something to rely on.
So that's something for your
Australian fellows to consider.
Um, find the people that you're vibing
with, um, and ask where they're going
and maybe that's a good place for you.
Anja: Yeah.
And just the last question on,
on El Salvador, 'cause you're
really selling it to me now.
Um, in terms of like a lot of
Australians being there, are they mostly
based in the capitol or the beach?
Katie: Bitch.
Well, beach mostly, I'd say.
Yeah, course
Anja: we are.
Katie: Yeah, I mean, it seems
like you guys the most comfortable
with this, uh, with this climate.
I, as a Russian born
and raised in Siberia.
I, I feel somehow very comfortable in a
humid, beachy environment that is hot.
I don't have a problem with that,
but I know many, many Europeans do.
So that's why they choose, go into the
mountains or go into the city 'cause it's
less humid and kind of a little cooler.
But yeah, fellow Australians don't
mind the humidity and, uh, they
hang out at the Bitcoin beach.
And Bitcoin beach is the
mind blowing place truly.
I'm on the beach buying a c
coconut from a 60-year-old lady
for a dollar 50, and I have like,
I'm on a, I'm in a bathing suit.
I have no cash on me, but I have my phone
and I'm like, will you accept lightning?
She's like, sure.
And she pulls up her wallet
like she's an elderly lady who.
Probably lives in a very low income who's
just selling coconuts that she acquired
for free in the forest on the beach, and
she pulls up a wallet and like, here's the
invoice and I pay lightning and that's it.
Mind blowing place.
Everybody accepts Bitcoin there
and uh, yeah, it's hard to
believe and it's quite pure.
In terms of Bitcoin maximalism,
I haven't seen a single sign
accepting any other currency.
It's all accepting Bitcoin so.
Bitcoin beach as a circular
economy truly worth visiting.
Just, just to recognize like, man,
we are way further than I thought we
are in this Bitcoin adoption journey.
Anja: I am getting goosebumps because,
yeah, Bitcoin being a medium of exchange,
like hearing that that's already
happening somewhere in the world, you
know, just because it's not accepted
widely doesn't mean that it's not there.
So that's, yeah, very
inspirational story to end with.
Thanks for your time, Katie.
Katie: Absolutely.
Well, anytime.
I really, I really love to brainstorm
with people on what jurisdiction would
fill up their needs, suit, their needs.
Um, so we have free
consultations on our website.
Just create an account, schedule a call,
and we'll spend 30 minutes brainstorming
on what are your goals and needs and what
jurisdiction fits your, fits your vibe.
Uh, so thank you.
Anja: Yep.
That's awesome.
I can already see a few people
potentially reaching out to take that up.
Um, yeah.
Thanks again.
Katie: Yeah, anytime.
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this week
on The Honest Money Show, a big
shout out again to shop bitcoin.com
au for making this episode possible.
Until next week, stay smart with
your money and stay decentralized.