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Modern Multifamily is an interview-style podcast where we talk with leaders across the Multifamily industry about ways we can keep moving it forward. Topics include and are not limited to: technology, innovation, proptech, and improving renter experiences with a focus on positive impacts on both industry operators and suppliers.
Modern Multifamily - Dom Beveridge
Host: Mike Wolber
Guest: Dom Beveridge, Founder, 20for20
Recorded: spring 2026
Dom Beveridge: Rolling out AI means I'm gonna get a digital leasing assistant. Right. So the problem is we don't answer the phones enough. Here's something that's gonna answer the phones every time. Let's roll that out. Now we're answering the phones. Great. Now that's the value prop of the solution.
Mike Wolber: Welcome back to another episode of the Modern Multifamily Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Wolber, and each week I will be sitting down with leaders across the industry to talk about challenges and solutions they are putting in place to move the industry forward. Throughout my time at G5, Rent Dynamics, and now at Apartment List, the thing that has always inspired me most has been conversations with leaders and innovators. And I'm excited to commit to bringing those to you every single week. Let's get into it.
Mike Wolber: All right, Dom, welcome back. This is round six of our 20for20 annual discussion on your incredible white paper. Welcome back to the podcast.
Dom Beveridge: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Mike Wolber: I went back through your website last night and downloaded all eight editions. Is it right? This is your eighth for you. Yeah. I'd love to start by like kind of understanding the thesis for 20for20. I have to think it's changed to a degree over the eight years, even though the premise of the white paper has stayed relatively consistent around how you identify 20 executives to articulate what's happening, what's going to happen in the industry. But for those that maybe aren't as familiar with 20for20, would you mind painting a picture of why it exists and how you think about it?
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, well, I mean it's, it exists really because fundamentally in multifamily it's a very, very fragmented industry and the companies are all different from one another. So you've got this curious set of circumstances where you have to have vendors that are specific to this industry, right? In most companies, most larger companies in most industries, you would take Salesforce or Oracle or whatever the enterprise technology is, and you would have the resources to kind of customize it and so on. You don't really have that in multifamily. There's very few companies with the resources to do things like that. So you need an ecosystem of stuff that's just made available off the shelf to multifamily operators. And because the companies are very different from each other, they all have their own investment theses. You have big third-party managers, you have small owner operators, you have value-adds, you have syndicators, yeah, you have all these different like business models. It's basically impossible to understand the why of technology and operational change unless you understand the context in which it happens. So I guess around the time that we started doing this, I'd really come to notice that whenever you read surveys where you know X percent of respondents said this and Y percent said that, you always got the feeling that these questions are missing the points, right? The more interesting thing is going to be the reason why they answered the question that way. And so the best way to get at sentiment, right, the drivers of decisions is to have one-on-one conversations that are very structured, but where the questions are all open ended so people can answer them any way that they want to. And it seems to be a formula that gives us each year this nice little snapshot of what's going on in operations and tech.
Mike Wolber: I'm curious that from what I gathered, I did not read all eight last night, but I dropped them into Claude. And Claude gave me some like really interesting takeaways. I've read them all over the years, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it sounds like you've been pretty consistent on interviewing a mix of REITs and owners, third-party fee managers, and the traditional owner operator. And before we jump into the 2026 white paper, which I'm like super pumped to dig in on with you, I'm curious if across those three stakeholders, like owners, managers, and owner operators, if the sentiment felt consistent or if there were any nuances in terms of how those respective types of interviewees are feeling about the year, the fatigue in the industry, whatever it might be.
Dom Beveridge: So I think that I mean there's been this backdrop of centralization which has been going on over the last few years. I think when we look back on this period, the last sort of three or four years will probably be the most productive in terms of changing stuff, like breaking norms in terms of how we run properties. And of course, you get these quite big differences between the third-party managers and the owner operators. Like generally, well, I'm sure we'll come to the details of this, but for the first time, there's this feeling I think that centralization looks quite settled. Like most, if you're an owner operator, it's pretty clear either what you've done or what you're planning to do or what you've almost done, right? That's the sort of stage that we're at. With third-party managers, of course, you've got this, you know, they've all stood up some form of central support functions, but the extent to which it gets rolled out is entirely up to their owners. And so they have this whole different like dimension where, you know, we can be really, really committed to doing this thing really well. And, you know, maybe most of our owners just don't want to do that. And so you have very different perspectives. And yeah, I probably thought it would be more the case that it would become a lever for selling more management contracts than it probably has. I still think it's more that the operator is doing more of the grunt work in getting people to sort of sign up to this rather than this thing is so attractive that I'm a better option than my competitors are. But yeah, those are some quite important overall sentiment things I think I've been noticing.
Mike Wolber: Those totally resonate. One thing that really caught me, not by surprise, but it definitely caught me in reading the 2026 paper is that the word of the year was exhaustion. And I think that came through in a pretty clear way throughout the research and throughout the entire like writing of the paper, just the high rates and low transactions as you articulated it in the paper. That operators are just really grinding on NOI and org fatigue is finally becoming a consideration. And I also think that this like tech bloat that comes through quite consistently year over year to me fed into exhaustion. I'd love for you to unpack this one a little bit. Maybe we can have a discussion about what exhaustion looks like and how we undo that to a degree to bring some of the energy and momentum back in.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, it's something I didn't really notice until I started reviewing the collective responses, but that specific word kept coming up. And you know, whenever an unusual word keeps coming up in interviews, there's usually something like behind it. And basically the voiceover behind exhaustion is that we're a balance sheet business, right? Most of what we do is to do with the building, trading, upgrading of real estate assets, right? And so everything that we do in operations plays out in that context. And it means the cadence of work is different from most businesses, right? So the stuff when the property trading slows down, it means that people are hanging on to properties longer than perhaps they anticipated. And there's this big focus on the P&L, right? On NOI, right? And the thing is that's countercultural. And so if we think about what people have been saying about performance each of the last, or at least the outlook over each of the last three years since the interest rate thing really started to bite, people have basically been looking forward to the year ahead in more or less exactly the same way. It's going to be rough because there's all this extra supply on the market. And, but things will get better probably second half, around Q4. And it's been exactly the same prediction for the last three years. And while there's good reason to think third time might be a charm in this case, this period is a grind, right? Because it's not, certainly if you weren't around at the time of the global financial crisis in this industry, you haven't had this experience of multiple years of just really sharp focus on the bottom line of every property in your portfolio. Most companies in most industries, that's what work is normally like, but it's just that's not what multifamily is like because it's this balance sheet industry. So on the one hand, you've got all of these eyes on every controllable expense decision that you make and there's no rent growth to cover the margins like there normally is. And at the same time, you've had this very productive period of changing stuff. You know, back in 2024, for example, or 2023, people were saying, okay, well, if property trading is going to be slow this year, we've got a bit more bandwidth to change some stuff about how we operate. And that sort of helped move centralization along, but you know, if you think after multiple years of constant focus on the bottom line and also changing a load of stuff about my business, generally people are ready for the next cycle to start.
Mike Wolber: For sure. No, well said. It does feel like every year we go to NMHC Annual and there's this like renewed energy. But it does feel like, you know, you called it out in the last three years, it was always like, hey, the second half is where we're gonna really see an uptick. And I'm interested to see whether it's the feeling I see on the technology side or even just like the headlines, what it looks like and feels like in our industry for there to be less exhaustion, because it does feel like there's a fatigue that everyone feels right now that is palpable in a way that, you know, this is year 12 for me in this space. It's more palpable right now than it's ever been before.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, no, I agree.
Mike Wolber: One of the things that you talked about was tech consolidation and just like this importance of acknowledging tech bloat. And you know, we're seeing this in conference participation year over year, where you see the percentage of vendors growing, the percentage of new vendors joining. And every single day it feels like someone's raising capital to either solve a new problem or to try to turn their point solution into a platform. I think AI is also going to play a big role in helping reduce some of this bloat. And that comes through to a degree in your paper, but you're really in it right now. What are you seeing in this tech bloat, the drive for consolidation? And what do you think we should expect to see in these next couple of years?
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, so it's a pretty uncontroversial thing to say that people have been buying too much tech for the last, probably most of the last decade. I spent a lot of time in leasing offices during 2025 just doing client work. And it's just not at all unusual for a community manager to have more than 40 logins, for, you know, just to do their job. It's funny, I was on Peter Lohmann's podcast the other week, Peter's really well known in the smaller, you know, sort of 500 to 1,000 unit rental housing business. And we basically spent all this time contrasting what it's like to do sort of mainstream institutional grade multifamily versus the kind of business that he represents. And when we were talking about the logins thing, he was saying, wow, like we in our business, sort of 12 to 14 feels like a lot, right? So you, you know, having upwards of 40 logins is just clearly too much, right? And people sort of understand that. But the trouble is it's hard to get rid of tech once you've got it. It's at least as hard to get rid of tech as it is to acquire it in the first place. So it's sort of easy to see how it happens. So the question is what do people do about it? Well, I think a couple of things looked different to me this year compared to last year, where we sort of asked a similar question about it. One was that for about a third, I think, of the companies in the survey, this now has risen to the level of an initiative in their company. They're actively trying to shed tech. So several of the companies have got tech freezes in place. Other than upgrades, you can't add any more tech without removing something from the stack, which kind of should be the way it works anyway. But that's now increasingly a thing. Like there was one company that was, I guess, you know, they had had a change in ownership, like quite a big owner operator platform, and they were really paring back. They were going from low forties to like under 20 applications, a complete sort of retrenchment of technology. Which sort of tells you that if you're really thinking about it as a lever for performance, a radical retrenchment of technology actually is one of the things that can simplify your business and lower your costs. Very little of the concern about this has anything to do with the amount of money we're spending on it. It's all to do with the overhead of every integration is more work than we give it credit for. Like every app means less likelihood that people are going to be any good at using any of these pieces of software across a distributed organization. And for some companies, centralizing admin functions has been this effective way of starting to consolidate technologies because you've got a smaller group of people who know what they're doing and you can make better decisions about technology rather than this sort of incremental thing that people tend to do. So anyway, that's one thing. The other thing is AI is definitely starting to change the way that people see technology. These interviews took place just after OpTech, so you got to say, okay, you just tell me how the trade show floor at OpTech looked this year based on all this AI stuff that you've been doing. And the kinds of feedback that people give you is we're very skeptical now of anything that looks too narrowly focused. AI adds sort of features that could easily obsolete a narrowly focused technology. So we have a higher degree of skepticism about the really narrowly focused point solution. Companies that have their own dev shop who are well into figuring out how to use Claude in a development sense, you know, a few of the technology leaders were saying I heard pitches at OpTech and immediately came back and challenged my team to see if they could spin this up themselves. So that's now a thing as well. And the final thing I'll say is, this is a sort of relatively sophisticated view, I think, but several other people were saying that they're looking at their existing technology stack and they're looking at how companies are integrating AI into their platforms. And the question they're increasingly asking themselves is does the AI go deep enough into this software that it's going to be competitive with the AI native stuff that's coming out of the woodwork everywhere else. And so it's, yeah, it's definitely making people think differently about what they need.
Mike Wolber: Before we like dive in on the AI outcomes from the white paper, which I do want to hit on, in this conversation of tech bloat and consolidation and getting from 40 vendors down to 20, I would challenge that many people are probably close to 70, 80, 90 if they really go to the well, just as I look at the enterprise where we spend a lot of our time. One of the things that I'm curious about from your perspective is the sentiment of the technology side of our industry as it relates to AI. You know, you're seeing Block do a 40% cut to their entry level, kind of early stage employees due to AI. So there's a human impact. But then you're also seeing certain companies feel more threatened versus more empowered by the emergence of AI. Salesforce just, you know, did their earnings call. It was their best year ever, both in top line revenue and in profit. You're seeing like if you can have a moat around your business where AI can help, your business is probably going to be supercharged. Do you see any specific sectors or types of technologies in our industry that are feeling more threatened around AI versus more excited around AI? No, I know that's a loaded question. Yeah.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, I mean it's definitely both. So this is obviously not what makes it into the paper, but I have a lot of conversations with founders, like technology leaders from vendors, when the results of the survey come out. And the conversations are fascinating. Like it's incredibly fast moving what's happening right now in tech. You know, I was just talking yesterday to the head of technology of a big multifamily tech company. And they were saying, you know, that there was this, whatever it was, October 2025 moment with Claude where he was just saying within a month, like it was clear like absolutely everything had to change about the way that they were developing software. Right. So, and the kinds of things, and I've had this conversation with multiple leaders of sort of fast growing technology companies, which is that it's clear that just within 2026, and probably within the first half of 2026, we just have to completely pivot how we develop to an organization that primarily develops through these, you know, Claude tools, for example. And what that means is that the people who are doing my development for me, some of the people that have spent their careers thus far writing code are going to be good at guiding these AI code writing applications and some of them aren't. So you know, even if we still have the same number of people because we're growing quickly, they're not going to be the same people by the end of 2026 or something like that. Because, you know, it's just completely changing the skill sets that you need to develop technology. Which again is exciting and at the same time scary, right? Because, you know, I published a blog about it today where I just keep thinking of like shifting sands, right? It's just like the floor is just not stable beneath us and we're still moving very quickly down this path.
Mike Wolber: That totally resonates. One double click just on this like tech bloat thing. You talk briefly, I can't find it, I was just trying to pull it up while we're talking, about the VC funding models that exist in our industry. And it feels like there might be a little bit of conflict here. You know, you talk about a small percentage of people that are actually attacking the reduction of tech bloat, which leads to the high-level question why aren't more people investing in: is this piece of software dusty? Could it be built? Could it be replaced? But the bigger question I have is: you know, there are a lot of operators that operate also as investors. They cut small checks into early businesses or late-stage businesses, which could create like a meaningful conflict here. You know, I've invested in this point solution through RET. We don't need it, but I'm incented to grow it. Right. Is that a big enough part of this driver, or is that not actually part of the conflict that you're seeing?
Dom Beveridge: No, it's totally part, in fact it's pretty causal to the conflict. So it's, you know, there's no solutions, only trade-offs, right? So if I think of the trade-off with technology, the rise of the Camber Creeks, the RETs, the Fifth Walls, and so on mean that capital flows to good ideas, right? So it means that lots of really good companies that are really helpful get to exist and thrive and help people improve their businesses. As we know though, the VC model is not predicated on everyone's a winner. Which means that if the model is that, you know, if I'm a VC where part of my pitch to portfolio companies is we're gonna fund you in exchange for which you're gonna get access to our LPs who are all users, potential users of your software, yeah. The incentive is that those LPs are going to roll out the software, which means I can't just say no to everything. There's an expectation I'm going to roll out most of this stuff across my portfolio. Well, if we've got an incentive for me to roll out software and we've got an investment model where most of the companies don't end up meeting their pro forma expectations, you've got a perfect recipe for people acquiring more technology that they don't need than they otherwise would have. So, you know, the trade-off is, we get the odd diamond in the rough every now and again, but we also have to deal with the rough, which is the problem of tech bloat.
Mike Wolber: No, for sure. That resonates a lot. I'm curious, just like on this discussion point that we can't help but interconnect with all of these, on AI. I know AI is really having a moment right now. You did a lot of discussion here around like the different types of adopters. And I believe the categories were embracing AI transformation, a seasoned user, cautious adoption, or dabbling. Six of the respondents that you interviewed put themselves at the top, like really embracing AI transformation. And I have a hard time understanding why more people wouldn't be in that bucket right now with all of the goodness that you're seeing coming from AI, at least in a business like ours and the customers we work with. Do you have any like takes there as to why we're not seeing more people in that category in 2026?
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, and by the way, the categories are my interpretations of their answers. So it's me who's allocating them to the, so yeah, the six in that bucket are people who, you know, 'cause it was quite a long part of the conversation, so there's a lot of information came out of it, but their sort of narrative fit with a sort of AI first mindset. That was the way I was interpreting what I was hearing from them. And just to give you a sense of who falls into that bucket, it's the people who, for most of the time up to now, rolling out AI means I'm gonna get a digital leasing assistant. Right. So the problem is we don't answer the phones enough. Here's something that's gonna answer the phones every time. Let's roll that out. Now we're answering the phones. Great. Now that's the value prop of the solution. That sells AI very, very short, right? The amount of insight, the amount of value it can add to sort of decisions that you make, that kind of thing. You know, you have to think much more broadly about your business in order to get access to those benefits. And the kinds of companies that I think are on this path, this sort of AI first kind of path, are the ones that, for example, yeah, right, we're centralizing admin services and we're doing it in a way where we want to get the maximum leverage out of automation. So we're gonna start doing delinquency. Yeah, it's something that I talked about a few years ago, actually, that the real leverage from AI will come when people start configuring their organization to leverage it. And that's something that's generally, that the people in that top bucket are doing, right? So they're trying to get the maximum benefit from automation and they're changing what they want their people to do to, again, be optimized in an environment where most of the grunt work is being done by robots. So sort of a yin yang like relationship. I just want to figure out how to be as good at renewals, as good at collections, as good at everything as I possibly can, and they're really thinking about building this from the AI upwards. CRM is another important aspect here. Like what you hear from a few people that are using chat in a lot of different ways, like not just leasing but resident facing communications. They're starting to think about this in terms of, all right, when I'm talking to residents every month, that means I'm learning lots of things about preferences. I'm learning, I have a growing base of information about outcomes. I can start to join dots that would have previously been invisible. It's changing how we want software to work. We want the software to be more intelligent than workflows that we program ourselves. We want the software to start telling us how to improve our business, our customer experience, and so on. So basically it was the companies that are describing those kinds of things that I think were in that top bucket. And you know, I still think that, to answer your original question, why more people aren't in that bucket, I think it's because multifamily reflexively has this habit of just buying widgets, right? They see the new software or they see the demo and okay, let's give it a whirl, but then they're not thinking about, in the case of AI, it's really beneficial to think much more in terms of what should this technology be doing for our business.
Mike Wolber: And I mean, you mentioned earlier just about even customers going deeper on asking how technology companies are using AI within their business workflows, et cetera. I've come to believe that there's a huge difference between people that are using AI and people that are building with AI. And I think as you go deeper, I mean, Claude has been like really eye-opening for me over the past three or four months. You know, never in my wildest dreams as a non-technical could I imagine saying, hey, I use these three tools, they're fragmented. I want to be able to connect those into a dashboard. And I'd like real-time updates delivered to me via text, Slack, or email. And as a non-technical, I've built things that I believe I could monetize one day. It's like really cool. But I think that that's building, that's not just like using it. And so I think that mind shift is going to be a big one that is going to change this year because it's been so intimidating and it no longer has to be for the folks that now have easy access to using this.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And you reminded me of another thing about how tech vendors, like proptech vendors, are looking at this. One of the other really interesting conversations I've had with a few founders is they're just really wondering how people are gonna access their software, right, as people get better and better at building stuff as you describe, right? So, I remember a couple of years ago when AppFolio released its AI, its Realm-X AI layer, right? They were, you know, they were trying to make it so that you can just interact completely with their stack just through chat. One of the interesting things that they did, they made it like LLM agnostic. So they built this thing for a world where people would just use their own chat to interface with, you know, that part of their software. And that seems to be something that people are thinking about a lot. Like if I make a, you know, I don't know, maintenance technology or something, is the way that people are going to access my tool always going to be through my UI, or ultimately do we prepare for a world where people are just going to create their own user experiences and we have to figure out how to optimize for that in the way that we develop our software.
Mike Wolber: No, absolutely. Well, on the topic of AI, Apartment List was a proud sponsor, first time sponsor for the white paper this year. Been a long time fan and really excited to find a way to finally do some business with you. I think you really nailed the delivery that you did in partnership with our team just on how our business is different. And I'd love just to like maybe get your personal take on, as you learned a little bit more about Apartment List as we worked together on the sponsor viewpoint for the white paper. We definitely approach apartment marketing a little bit differently in our top of funnel approach to, you know, success-based pricing, high volume of leads using AI to still deliver high value for properties and their teams. I'd love to hear what your take was as you got to know our business a little bit more.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, no, it's a fascinating idea and one that I hadn't thought of before, right? So I remember you and I talked at Blueprint when we were first sort of hatching this idea, but the idea that, you know, in marketing and leasing, we're quite attached to conversion rates, right? That's been this touchstone that everybody's always been very focused on for years. And in an environment where there's not really any constraint on your ability to convert leads, how relevant should that be as a metric? And when you start to unpack it, what's interesting about it is why is conversion interesting? And the main reason is that it was people that were doing the converting, right? So you don't want low quality leads because you don't want to waste time on leads that have a relatively low probability, because that's going to take people's time that they could have spent converting higher probability leads, which means thinking about this numerator and denominator of volume of leads and ability to convert them is a really good way to think about, you know, like a manual lead funnel. That rather goes out the window when you've got AI nurturing leads through to the point where they book a tour. That capacity is now infinite. So you dropped that idea on me and I was like, okay, that's interesting. So I then started immediately going and finding people who I thought would be skeptical of that idea. And they all just said to me like, yeah, no, they're totally right. That's how you should think, you should now think about everything in terms of actual leases rather than in terms of what you're doing with leads, because that's not the thing that's gonna move the needle anymore.
Mike Wolber: It's interesting because I've only been here for two years, but you know, as I've gotten to know our customers, we have almost 1,500 partners today at Apartment List, and learned, you know, how the leasing teams are incentivized. Like there is an optimization for conversion from contact to tour that does feel archaic to me because we still have teams that are paid on conversion rate. And so it's like, well, why not flip the script and pay them on conversion from tour to lease so they can really control that part? And so we have a lot more work to do just to change that narrative and to find a way to be in that need-to-have quadrant. But the market's on our side, you know, the vacancy outlook is all-time high right now, over seven percent right now across the country. And so we're really excited just about what this looks like for being able to use great data, great attribution, great AI to solve partners' problems. But I do just want to say thank you for engaging with us this year.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, and thank you for contributing like a really good set of ideas as well. But just, I'm curious, do people ever push back on this idea?
Mike Wolber: They do. I mean, I think, you know, historically a company like Apartment List would send a lot of lead volume to the property. And without AI, it would be a very, very high volume of contacts with a lower level of quality. Lots of our customers optimize for conversion in somewhere between like the two to fifteen percent range. And we would oftentimes be in that like one to three percent range, just on the lower end of the cycle. But you know, back in 2021, before AI was having a moment, we went out and purchased an Israeli-based AI business and built it in across our entire platform so that AI was working all of these contacts and then delivering high intent leads to the site teams. And so we've done a lot to optimize for this, but because of the integration deficiencies that we still deal with, sometimes we're looked at one way, even though performance is a different way. So we still feel like if we're not part of the conversation in helping our customers understand how to view us and how to engage with us, that there's still an industry narrative that we need to be at the forefront of changing.
Dom Beveridge: Yeah, I guess the other thing is that, you know, I always remind people most of our industry is third-party managed, right? And third-party management entails these commercial relationships, and commercial relationships tend to be founded on these metrics, which means any metric just has a very natural salience and is hard to get people to change.
Mike Wolber: Well, you know, the age old quote of like what gets measured gets managed. If you have a playbook that says this matters, like, well, that matters even if you haven't challenged the metric in over a decade. So I just think if you want to be part of the change, you've got to face that kind of stuff head on. So every year it gets different. Every year it gets both harder and easier to do business. But you know, we keep finding ways to win. So I'm definitely really bullish on what the future of this business looks like, especially with AI. Don't feel threatened. We feel really excited about what it does for a business like ours. Yeah. Sure. Well, hey, let's just end with like 2027. Obviously, you just authored the 2026 white paper. So why is Mike asking you about 2027? Reading back on the last eight editions and knowing that you'll do another one after OpTech this year for year nine, do you have like a finger in the air call of what a headline or two might look like next year as we ride this year's wave?
Dom Beveridge: So I've got, so there's a couple of things that I suspect might be sort of interesting over the next year or two. Like, so I do wonder if we've kind of reached the peak of the sort of VC, you know, I mean I notice a lot of companies are still getting funded, some fairly inexplicably. But I do wonder if we're sort of reaching the peak of the sort of tech VC model. So I do wonder if the tech bloat problem is gonna sort of naturally cap out, or maybe it already has, and a combination of AI taking over more and more stuff and people sort of being a bit over it might mean that the prevailing trend of most of the last decade might be sort of coming to a bit of a natural end. So I do sort of have my eye on that. The more sort of pragmatic functional thing, I get a sense that there's an appetite to do something about applications. So I think the biggest casualty of tech bloat really is the complexity people have added into customer journeys in general. And I think nowhere is that more burdensome than in the application process. So, you know, fraud has obviously been this massive thing for the last few years, but you can tell people have started to understand how fraud checks work and what they're actually trying to accomplish. And some of them are changing suppliers and definitely how they organize things like screening in order to figure out how to make quicker responses to residents, fewer steps in application processes, better decisions, blah, blah, blah. But you know, you've got fraud, you've got the rest of screening, you've got deposits, you've got multiple different insurance products, all of which are valuable, like, you know, people are buying them because they're good. But I see the objective of simplifying this so that if you look at it from a resident's perspective, it just feels less disjointed than it currently does. That's a problem that I suspect quite a few people will be interested in tackling over the next year or so.
Mike Wolber: I think you're spot on. That even in my world comes up more frequently than it probably should. And to your first point on the shift in the VC and capital dynamic, it'd be amazing if as part of your annual paper you could partner with a couple of conferences, even if it's sanitized, to get like AIM, Apartmentalize, Blueprint, and OpTech to simply say year over year growth and vendor participation. 'Cause I have to think we're getting close to seeing it actually be, there's less vendors this year than there were the year before, because the tail has gotten so long of those pre-revenue, pre-seed startups. But that's another one that I am interested to see if that tail changes over the next couple of years. I definitely think it's going to. Well, Dom, I'm always energized by seeing you and spending time with you. I think the next time I'll get to shake your hand and hopefully share a beer with you will be at AIM here in Huntington Beach, where you're gonna be speaking. But thank you as always for doing this. And I can't wait to do year seven with you next year.
Dom Beveridge: Awesome, yeah, and look forward to seeing you in the tent perhaps at AIM this year.
Mike Wolber: The tent will be back. We've got a new design and we're bringing back the party on Tuesday night.
Dom Beveridge: Love it.
Mike Wolber: All right, thanks, Dom.
Dom Beveridge: Thank you.
Mike Wolber: And that's a wrap on another great episode of Modern Multifamily. If you're interested in helping us grow the show, please be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you listen. A review always helps, and be sure to follow me or the show on LinkedIn as well. We'll see you next week.