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Learn about Growing Profits and Transferable Value as Business Advisors 'Get Naked' about Client Cases and Running a Thriving Advisory Business. Host George Sandmann is an Author, Entrepreneur and Founder of Growth-Drive, the #1 best-selling business advising system.
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Hi, this is George Samman. I'm the founder and CEO of Growth Drive. Growth Drive is the number one best -selling business advising platform, and this is our podcast, The Business Advisor Hot Seat. Now in the hot seat, you're going to hear from industry leaders, thought leaders, your colleagues who are going to share tips, techniques, war stories about building a thriving advisory business based on delivering client wins. We're going to get into it. We'll get into it about the Growth Drive methodology, the clarity software, what we see out in the world.
so much more than just the system. And I'm also the author of The Growth Driving Advisor, which is based on over a decade of being an advisor to advisor, working with you and your colleagues, helping them build their practices, helping them through client engagements. And it's really proven strategies for leading businesses from stuck to best in class. Check it out. So strap in. We're going to light this up. Here we go.
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Our guest this week is Dr. Allie Taylor. Allie is a visionary in business psychology. She is...
often hired by business advisors and investment bankers ahead of a transaction to make sure that these transactions go smoothly when a family business is involved. She's also hired by the businesses themselves, by the CEOs to help work through the challenges that come from running a family business, multi -generational and more. Fantastic conversation. Here we go.
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This episode is brought to you by Growth Drive. Growth Drive is the number one best -selling business advising platform with training, technology, and support you need to get the success you want. Find a way to engagements, expand your reach and impact, and build a thriving advisory business based on delivering client wins. Growth Drive, find out more at growthdrive .com.
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out here.
So listen, thank you very much. And welcome. I'm excited because you bring a completely different perspective than our typical guests. And I'm hoping we can get into it. You know what I'd like to do, if I could, I'd love to start with.
You know, you run into a lot of problems, right? When you're, I mean, that's why you're brought in. And I'd love to jump in right away with, you know, what are the landmines that you run into? So maybe we can, maybe we can just say, welcome, I'll introduce you. And then I would feel free to add, so to amplify my brief introduction and we'll take it from there. So you're ready to go?
Yeah, I don't, I won't need to amplify. I'm sure you'll do a great job on the internet. No pressure, no pressure. No pressure at all. Okay. Well, welcome ladies and gentlemen. And I'm excited to welcome onto this episode of the hot seat, Ali Taylor. Ali is with Orange Kiwi. Ali is an incredible public speaker. She also has a real change maker inside engagements. And that's what motivated me to invite Ali in. So welcome Ali. Thanks for.
Thanks for agreeing to join us. Thanks for having me. And, and Ellie, you know, anything you want to add about how you do what you do and why people hire you? How I do what I do. As a business psychologist, I play in the space between business and the hard realities of the numbers and the soft stuff that happens inside the mind of an owner, entrepreneur, family member, management team.
They usually bring me in when they hit roadblocks and they don't understand what's happening. If it's a family member owner that brings me in, oftentimes advisors will bring me in when it's outside their lane and they need some additional support. Awesome. So you get brought in by both sides. Excellent. Excellent. Well, you know, I, I, I suggested this before we came on the air and I'd love to jump in with, you know, what is.
What does a landmine look like? What would cause them to call you in? And if you have a specific case, no names, but a specific case that jumps to mind, I'd love to hear about it.
Yeah, it's, there's really a couple of buckets. So when a family member reaches out, it's oftentimes a next gen. And so I'm thinking about actually a couple of cases that are very similar at the start and very different once you get in. The one was five members of generation two and seven members in generation three who
tried to do this family succession, moved to go to transaction, came back to family succession a couple of times. The other one was four G3 and 10 G4 family members, who's the same thing. They tried to do succession. They went to sail a couple of times. They came back. And for both families, what was happening is it's the family dynamics that were getting in the way.
Right? So in some case, once you get into them, that's where the discrepancy starts. The differences in the family dynamics. But the root cause is the fact that families are first and foremost emotional units. And the emotion drives behavior in ways that they don't fully understand or expect. You know, it's interesting. I have a shorthand that you don't get to pick your family, right? We love them, but we didn't get to pick them. And so so fascinated.
The working from advisors, working with family businesses is a specialty, right? It is, can be incredibly rewarding. It is also fraught with peril. Would you be willing to share a story like, one of these multi -generational opportunities, could you share a story of what it looked like when you came in? How bad was it? And then how do you resolve, well then we'll shift into how do you resolve? Yeah.
So one I came into was a G2 to G3 transition, two brothers in G2 and then a bunch of cousins in G3. If I remember correctly, I think there were eight or nine cousins in G3. And initially I thought it was kind of branch warfare, but it turns out that it wasn't really branch warfare. So there were two brothers that were operating the business plus a sister who was not in the business. And,
They were really siloed in the way that they did business and they went to go to transaction and it was in diligence that a lot of stuff was uncovered, valuation dropped. You know the story George, it just wasn't pretty. That created a tremendous amount of conflict because they had been just holding on and if they could just sell the business, life would be great.
what they have been doing is going through artificial harmony and just suppressing everything, stuffing, stuffing, stuffing. And then when the pandemic hit right in the middle of diligence and crisis after crisis after crisis and the family stopped talking to each other. So that's actually when they brought me in. And so the key issues there were really that they did not have language for what they were experiencing. And...
Emotion was an unsafe place for them to go together. They needed a buffer to process individually what was happening so that they could come to the table and work collectively. And they did. They ended up not selling, pulling together, sifting behavior. And they are now double where they were pre -pandemic in terms of annual revenue profitability. Well, actually, their triple in profitability and in number of staff.
That's awesome. That's a happy ending. And it goes to show that often the exit process, if we focus on exiting, the exit process often doesn't end up with an exit. And I know you and I probably won't get into this, but exit doesn't mean leaving. You used a term there that's fascinating, artificial harmony. Can you explain that? Yeah.
Artificial harmony is when people are not intellectually and emotionally honest with others about and sometimes with themselves about what they're experiencing. They go along to get along or they say one thing and do another. Sometimes it can look a lot very passive aggressive. That's because they don't know how to engage in conflict in a way that's just safe and productive. So they just avoid it or stuff it. Yeah.
The downside of that is it usually explodes down the road into some more volatile forms of conflict. Yeah, it's interesting because you just teased this out. It is often during due diligence. It is at the worst possible time that these come to light and at the worst possible time. Absolutely. Fascinating. So that was a happy ending. Go ahead. Yeah, it was a happy ending.
I think there's some really interesting research that's come out using what's called functional magnetic resonance imaging or FMRI. And what that does, it's a big machine that measures how changes in blood flow occur in the brain. And they've been studying this concept of the thin line between love and hate and the parts of the brain that get activated in each.
The interesting piece here, one of the more recent studies that came out looked at men who were fathers and they showed them pictures of their children who they were closely bonded to and then children that they didn't know. And they could see a distinct difference in blood flow in the brain. Then they did the same thing with entrepreneurs. They showed them images of their company's logo and then images of just other companies' logos.
And they saw very similar shifts. And then when they broke down love into its component parts, they didn't see any significant difference between the fathers and their children on the component parts of the overall, but they did with entrepreneurs. And the two component parts that increased for their own business were passion and intimacy. So you can imagine this deep emotional connection that we have.
activate in the same parts of our brain, or at least two major portions overlap, that are really rudimentary parts of our fight or flight survival instinct, a lot of our autonomic processes, that signals a tremendous amount of emotion. And this constant, but the other interesting factor with love in all of the studies, in hate, are
Our executive functioning doesn't necessarily shut down. It doesn't shut down. So we can reason, critical judgment, all those types of processes that allow us to rationalize, they switched on, but in love, they get shut down. And so we override biases. We don't see things that we should see. So in family businesses, sometimes when families in general, it's actually our love that gets.
in the way of us being effective at developing the next generation and letting them fail and make mistakes. We overparent. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, some of the most, some of the best, I think some of the best success stories that I've seen are the actual, the generation, let's say, Gen one saying, why don't you go out and cut your teeth somewhere else and then come back. I'm fascinating. I know I've always held that love and hate sit side by side.
They're both very passionate emotions. Ali, can we drill down please? It's something that I talk about, but I don't talk about it enough. And I've actually been thinking about writing a blog post about this. It's almost like this dirty little secret. Those of us who start businesses for a living, you started your business, I've started many. In many ways, I see the parallels between the business and how I view my business.
and the energies I put into my business and my kids. And I couldn't love my kids more, very close. There's nothing, I'm no freak, I couldn't love my kids more. They're my best friends. They're my children. They're fabulous. Great. My business, it was a piece of paper. I breathe life into it. I pour my energy into it. I think about it night and day. All of the things we do, all of the emotional attention we pay to our children, rightly, we also pay to our businesses.
And it's interesting, if you threaten someone, if you threaten an entrepreneur, and this will result in a question mark, when an entrepreneur is approaching the deal table, and you were talking about taking that away from them, even though if they've gone to the deal table willingly, what you just got at is that emotional bond we have with what is really our intellectual project, question mark.
Okay, so question mark what comes to mind is I had an owner Not long ago really encapsulate. Well, he said to me, you know, I'm not so concerned about losing But I don't want the other person to win I'm not so concerned about losing like he's not afraid to fail. You can recover from failure. You've done it many times but the thought of somebody besting him was I
unacceptable, completely unacceptable. Entrepreneurs have this very high need for goal achievement and competitiveness. And that is the quickest way to put them into fight or flight. They won't freeze. They're either gonna fight hard or they're gonna just walk away. Yeah, yeah. Which is the behavior we see time and again, not every time by any stretch, but so often in engagements, which is job security for you. So...
So that's fascinating. So when you're brought into, let's take Francis Brown, right? Mutual friend, big fan of yours. Actually he was on our podcast here a few weeks ago. And so Francis picks up the phone and calls you as he may, I don't know if he has, but how does that play out? He says I have - Yeah, so -
Go ahead. France is a great example. He's a very gifted advisor who genuinely cares about the people that he works with, which makes it super easy to work with him, as opposed to advisors that are just in it for the monetary gain. And they do exist. With Francis, he can just call and process, like, here's what I'm seeing with this client. What do I do about it? Or he'll...
Hey, he'll use one of our, we built a proprietary assessment that measures an owner's capacity for exiting their business and where are they gonna get hung up? Is it their identity? Is it how they approach change? Is it emotion? Like what are the things that are strengths and weaknesses? And just talk through the case study. I don't ever, I don't believe, and if he watches this and he can correct me, but I don't believe I've ever actually met any of the owners Francis works with.
that I've known he works with them. It's really more case study support and it's amazing to me. I mean, he's also a gifted attorney, right? So despite the fact he's in wealth management, he's got all this other skill that's largely in reason. Once he, and this happens with a number of advisors that are really switched on to doing what's right for the owner. Once he understands what the owner needs, he's able to adapt his behavior.
to get changed. He doesn't work on trying to change the owner. Smart. Very smart. Yeah, don't go and try to change the zebra stripes. There's still a zebra. Yeah. I don't even do that with my husband. So in our family business, we have an IT company. We have three of our six kids now working in the business. Two of my biological or my oldest two boys work in the business for my husband.
One directly reports to him. And even me, I have total awareness of what's happening in my brain from a biochemical and physiologic perspective. And I have to catch myself slipping into letting the mama bear biases get in the way of doing what's right for the kids who are adult, fully grown men, but doing what's right for them, right? And that is a constant battle.
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This episode is brought to you by Growth Drive. Growth Drive is the number one best -selling business advising platform with training, technology, and support you need to get the success you want. Find a way to engagements, expand your reach and impact, and build a thriving advisory business based on delivering client wins. Growth Drive, find out more at growthdrive .com.
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That's so when advice when advisors are able to challenge an owner in a supportive way and help them navigate that it makes a tremendous amount of difference. Yes, and you know this is why I think you just hit on one of the reasons if those of you are out there wondering. You we start our we we coach we teach people to start with what we call strategic intent the growth conversation which is really.
Where does this have to deliver for you and your family? The people you care about the most. I know you want to go to $3 million in net income. That's mildly interesting. Where does this ultimately have to go, right? Because we want to, you know, we want to, these are people. And what you just teased out is the fact that these are people with relationships, relationships inside the business, outside the business. And so those relationships that govern so much of the decision -making, right? 100%. Yeah. You nailed it.
You should. Thank you. You're, you're as of therapy. Right. The, you just, uh, you have software that gets at someone's capacity to exit. Can we explore that a little bit? Yeah, it's really capacity to experience a significant change. So, uh, my entire dissertation research was focused on understanding what happens inside the mind of an owner at a point.
at the point of a significant transition. So the first thing in that construct we had to do is say, okay, well, what are the significant transitions that an owner goes through? The first one is scaling through a growth barrier they haven't been able to conquer. So scaling is the process of building organizational capacity to achieve growth. You know this, that's where you spend most of your time. There's amazing data available publicly, right? The US census every five years.
looks at a whole bunch of information about every business in the country. What we find that's really consistent is only 4 % of businesses ever get over a million in annual revenue. 0 .4 over 5 million, 0 .0410, and that gets absurdly obscure. By 100 million, and you hit 0 .000061 % of all businesses ever get over 100 million in annual revenue.
There's not enough explanation if we just look at access to capital or access to talent or market opportunity or any of those variables. So that shoves us right into looking at the psychology of a load of market owner. So scaling through those growth barriers is a really significant challenge when their natural talent, the way they've always done things that have made them successful is no longer working. The second one is getting ready to sell the business.
have to be and do differently. Your identity is going to change your, where you get your motivational drivers met is going to change you. If you may have to go from King to Prince and not fully exit, but all of a sudden have a boss and then take a, hopefully a second exit. That is an enormously challenging journey. And the third and most difficult of all the significant transitions is family succession, going from one generation to the next. Unlike a sale.
sale at some point you get to leave. Family succession, it's not ideal to leave your family. So that becomes incredibly challenging. What, no matter which of those three significant transitions, a low to mid market owner, and that's both legal ownership and psychological ownership. There's not a lot of difference for owners. So family members who are part of enterprising families who don't have legal ownership often still feel like their owners.
Their identity can get fused with their role and it's measurable how fused that is. How they approach problem solving and change on a spectrum from adapter to innovator, that's measurable. Emotional inclinations and personality attributes, there's seven scales, that's all measurable. The power is in being able to measure those things and put all the pieces together to know.
where the strengths and weaknesses are that you can leverage as you walk that person through the process and help them see ahead of what's coming so that they can process that and prepare before they encounter it.
Wow. Okay, first of all, I'd love to do a public demo of your system. But let's go back. There are really three paths we could spend the rest of the afternoon talking about this. But one is the psychological barriers. We run it, this is the title of my book, Leading Businesses from Stuck to Best in Class. And a lot of that is developing, you don't know what you don't know.
But a lot of it is emotional. So can we focus in for a moment on, okay, I've grown my business to 10 million. It's already kind of a unicorn, right? At 10 million, what do I need to do? At 10 million, just pick, I'm just pulling a number out of the ether, right? Sure, that's fine. At a certain point, what would you be counseling if I said, listen, Ali, I'm stuck, I don't think it's the business stuff or I can do as an advisor.
What do you see and what do you recommend? Yeah. That's tough because it's not one size fits all, right? But let's say you come to me and you're stuck. The first thing we do is a series of assessments. There's a tool that is not our tool that is available in the public domain from Wiley. It's the Discord of Leaders. I love that tool because it helps me see how the...
the owner and their management team function in three domains, vision, alignment, and execution. That combined with Archul and some interviews helps us see where they're getting stuck and which interventions are gonna be most likely to get them unstuck. Keeping in mind that unlike working for a non -family owned company or a public company, you don't get to pick all your coworkers.
In a privately held company, the owner gets to cherry pick their management team and they've all learned to work with the owner psychology. So something in that system is serving all of them. And when we go to create change, we're not just triggering the owner. We've got everybody in the system that is going to have some type of reaction by helping them design it themselves, by helping them find their own solutions, by helping them even identify their own challenges.
we're able to help them move from where they are to where they want to be and stay there. The biggest challenge we had when Andrew, my husband, frontner, husband, friend and business partner, when we started Orange Kiwi, he's an ex McKinsey and company guy. So we adopted their seven S and a couple of frameworks and it was great until we left and the client would get marginal gain. They go back to the waterline.
He's actually the reason I went back to get my PhD, because he wanted to solve that issue. And what we've learned both through my research and over the years is working one -to -one with the owner will only get you so far. You have to find a way to help that owner foster change in the entire system. And that's often, particularly in families, that's often going to include the owner plus, right? The owner plus their management team.
The only plus their management team and their spouse, if their spouse is the biggest influence in their life, just leaving that person out, probably not a great idea. So making sure that we understand the whole system before we do any interventions is really critical. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's fascinating because we do.
Working with people that you like is great, right? But that is not necessary for success. And look at some of the most successful systems out there. But working with people that you like is not necessary for success. And you just sort of said it because we will cycle around the dysfunctions of the owner. And we are social animals. And we have a bias for, well, listen, Frank's a jerk. So he may be doing his job well, but he's a jerk. And let's just move him down the line.
That may not be good for the business. Wow, it becomes really interesting inside a family dynamic. It does, absolutely. Absolutely, particularly multiple branches. The siblings, right? They have the same family of origin. They started in the same family systems. And Murray Bowen, who in the middle part of the 20th century, that sounds so ancient, doesn't it? But like the 1950s, 60s, 70s.
He, um, you know, back when we were, yeah, we were dinosaurs to school. Just ask my kids. I'll tell you. Um, he is the founder of family systems theory. And one of the things that he said is, um, he identified that families are emotional units, bottom line, emotional units, emotions is going to drive how we interact with each other. Families are in this constant battle of balancing individuality and togetherness.
In a family business, it's almost impossible to balance individuality and togetherness as we mature into adulthood. The siblings never really, if they all stayed in the family business, didn't go work anywhere else, even if they had a college degree and came back and didn't work anywhere else, they have a limited experience. And so they all know how to work together in that family system. It's a strength. Even though it has weaknesses, it's definitely a strength.
When those siblings go and get married and they now have to form a union with somebody else's family of origin issues, they're renegotiating the terms. And that family system will look different than either of their family of origins. Now you have multiple branches doing that and you have cousins then that are trying to work together. And so navigating the nuances in what we really believe and what we value and why we think,
we should do X, Y, or Z. And then the concept of familiarity and believing that we know how somebody's gonna react, prethinking for them, all of those kinds of behaviors really get in the way of seeing people for their full potential and helping them achieve that potential in a family business. Yeah, and what's interesting, God, I could talk to you for the rest of the day about this.
So what's interesting there is, first of all, you can't, in a family, you may command respect, right? That you perhaps haven't earned. That's a giant problem. Well, wow, I would love to just keep asking questions about this, because I see exactly what you mean, because you do create new, it becomes a new family. We say in a mastermind peer group, when you add a member, it becomes a different group, and that seems counterintuitive.
but it's very, very true. How do you see that play out in, how does that play out in family businesses? What types of behaviors? The clearest, probably the most concise lens I can give you is the power lens, right? Really what you described where you can command respect, you're really using positional authority to maintain your power base. And there's three ways you can achieve power in any system.
through authority, either positional or subject matter expertise, through control, the right to direct the activities of others, the right to put limitations on others, or expand their opportunities and potential, right? The ability to control somebody else's way of being and doing. And then influence. And influence is the most powerful, but you don't use authority to get it.
You don't use control to get it. You have to give people the ability to exercise their free will and choose to follow you. Now, my personal bias, and this is opinion, my personal bias is that no matter what system you're operating in, influence will always be the most powerful, even with parenting. Even with parenting. And the reason I know that is I had teenagers and...
You know that moment when their friends have more influence than you do, you've lost a tremendous amount of power. Figuring out how to get that back doesn't usually come through positional authority or control. It comes from reestablishing a new way of influencing. Yes. It's so true, even within a family, respect is earned and respect is burned so quickly as it is inside the workplace.
Wow, fascinating.
fascinating. You're having some memories flash through your head. Oh man, am I? Oh man, am I? I have, you know, in my career, I've worked for a lot of businesses. I've never worked for a family business. I've owned a business with my partner, which was fraught and things, something I'd probably never do again. But it's interesting.
So how do we see family -like behaviors? Maybe this will wrap it up with this. What are the common behaviors and misbehaviors you see, working groups of non -family members and families? What are some of the common things you see? Because we already - I'm gonna see if I reframe that. What I think you're asking, yank my chain if I'm wrong.
But I think you're asking is connected to you had a business partner that you've never worked with again. So what are the similarities between those types of partnerships and family types of partnerships? Is that the question? Yeah, I guess let's make that the question. Thank you. Okay. The common overlap. You can look at it multiple ways. So in families, we have to talk about sibling rivalry. In non -related.
Ownership groups, we talk about competition for resource and that resource could be power that resource could be money that resource could be significance or authority or control, but it's really Everybody's trying to figure out how do we get our needs met? How do we I believe this? Why aren't you listening to me? This is the right way to go or I don't want to do that or you're not doing enough work I'm working harder. Let's go. We're not growing together or You're behaving unethically
and I'm not going in that direction. And yet you have equal opportunity to do that as I have not to. How do we resolve that? All those kinds of things. And for me, those, they're different. They're definitely different, but it's at the nuance level. At the very highest level, what we're dealing with is human behavior and human emotion.
and things that feed our motivational drivers and help us show up every day and give us resilience. Those are the things we have to tend to before we can tend to any of the details. So how do you stabilize the relationship and get them talking constructively? How do you get them to identify areas of shared understanding and common belief? And a lot of times they actually want the same things. The what is the same.
the how looks different. So how do you get them to see those commonalities before and get them to stop focusing on what's so different? And then you can start to move, shift. And if you can't, I mean, we could spend a whole time talking about the prevalence of mental health issues in entrepreneurs that's significantly higher than the general population. If you're running into those kinds of things, then we're gonna need to figure out some clinical intervention because doing what we're doing,
Coping is the best we can offer without that. That's fascinating. Could you share just some high level stats? You say that we entrepreneurs are crazy people, and we'd probably agree with you. But can you share some stats, Allie? Yeah, there was a great study out of UC Berkeley. I think the study was done in 2017, and it was published out of 2018, I believe 2018, 2019.
and they looked at a fairly small sample. I believe there were 242 people in the sample and they asked or they assessed for primary mental health issues. So the ones that the entrepreneur themselves have or mental health issues within the entrepreneur's family. And what they found is in the entrepreneurial population, 72 % either.
had a mental health issue themselves or had one in their immediate family, which means only 24 % of entrepreneurs in the sample did not. And they looked at things, they didn't look at narcissism. Narcissism has been fairly well researched in that population. They looked at things like ADHD. I won't get the multiples all correct, I don't think, so I want to be cautious, but I believe ADHD was about six times higher than the general population.
addiction was three times higher than the general population. The one that really stood out to me was bipolar disorder, which are, it's a mood disorder swings between extreme forms of depression and mania. 11 times higher than the general population. The only one that really mirrored the general population was anxiety. So in the entrepreneurial population, I think it was like,
27 % of the sample, the general population is about 25%, I believe, and that was before the pandemic. And we know the younger generations got increased anxiety, so those numbers are probably gonna skew. But the takeaway for me is that a lot of the times, people went into entrepreneurship and part of why they're successful is they learned to cope with these challenges and they've turned this challenge into a strength.
So when we go to create a change or a shift, we have to be really careful because we might be taking away or shifting a coping behavior that serves them well for managing this issue that they have. Wow. I would not have thought of that. That's fascinating. It's really interesting. That actually explains a few relationships I've had.
Well, we won't go out and diagnose the people we don't. No, no, no, no. It makes it's a good hypothesis. It is a good hypothesis. We also all we're all pop psychologists, right? Right. Right. I'm like, oh, my God, not again. Not everyone. OK. No, very few actually rise to a diagnosable level. But we see a lot of traits for sure. But let's let's just one more question and then we'll wrap it up. You know.
We focus at Growth World, we focus on senior leadership alignment, right? The world, sorry, an aligned senior leadership team. And I would ask you, I know how to get people aligned on a topic. Listen, guys, do we have a sales process or do we not have a sales process? What's the consensus here? Easy. Can you talk about emotional alignment and the impact of emotional? And what you mean when we say emotional alignment, I'd love to hear your definition. Yeah.
So, um, and The concept of emotion is so big I don't think you're ever if you're talking about emotional climate or How we feel about things that are happening You could probably get some agreement but if you're talking about emotional temperament or emotional self -awareness or emotional intelligence and getting everybody up to the same level That's a massive hurdle
people come to us at all different spaces. The key is not to try and make somebody achieve X level. The key is to meet them where they're at and help them bring their best self to the workspace. Sometimes we run into places where people don't have the emotional resilience or resources or intelligence. Pick which dimension you want to look at. They don't have what's required. So,
Executive coaching often helps. Sometimes clinical support is required and sometimes you have to exit them from the role to get the management team to go where they want to go. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, that's a tough one. It's a heartbreak when, you know, someone needs to be exited for whatever reason, you know, even firing a jerk, it isn't fun. Yeah. Fascinating. Fascinating. Wow. Allie, listen, a great conversation. I know we're,
We're kind of out of time. This was really fun. Thank you very much. And anything you want to share before we say ciao for now? It was fun. Thanks, George. I really enjoyed the conversation. I love what you're doing with management teams and really working towards getting alignment. Thanks for having me on. Thank you very much, Allie. OK, I appreciate it. Be well. And I'll talk to you soon. You too. Bye -bye.
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Hi this is George, thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, you can subscribe, like, and please take two seconds to leave a review. It tells the world that you like what we're doing and it helps us understand how we can improve the show. Thank you and see you next time.