Modern Sobriety: Parenting, AA, and the Labels We Use with Kristen Crocker

In this episode, hosts Colin Casey and Rachel Casey sit down with writer and recovery advocate Kristen Crocker for an honest conversation about parenting, sobriety, and modern recovery. Together, they talk about quitting drinking, navigating sobriety while raising kids, and how stigma, labels, and recovery culture shape the way parents seek support.

• (00:00) - Meet Kristen Crocker
• (03:54) - Struggles, relapses, and trying again
• (06:30) - Changing perceptions of alcoholism
• (10:39) - Navigating sobriety with family
• (16:42) - Pregnancy and sobriety
• (31:44) - AA Tradition 11 and social media
• (34:53) - Relapse and recovery insights
• (41:26) - Evolving AA literature and recovery culture

Connect with Kristen

Kristen writes Recoverettes, a Substack focused on normalizing recovery from alcoholism among strong, smart women. Her work explores motherhood, step-motherhood, staying sober through hard seasons, twelve-step recovery, neuroscience, and anything that actually works.

Substack: https://recoverettes.substack.com
Profile: https://substack.com/@kblantoncrocker

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Creators and Guests

Host

Colin Casey

Co - founder and host of Sober Banter.

Host

Rachel Casey

Co-founder and host of Sober Banter.

What is Sober Banter?

Sober Banter is a sobriety podcast for people living real life without alcohol. Hosted by Rachel and Colin, it blends honest conversation, humor, and the messy middle of recovery.

Colin Casey (00:00:08):
Hi, welcome to Sober Banter.

Colin Casey (00:00:09):
I am Colin.

Rachel Casey (00:00:10):
And I am Rachel.

Rachel Casey (00:00:11):
Today we are joined by Kristen Cocker.

Rachel Casey (00:00:14):
She is a mother,

Rachel Casey (00:00:15):
stepmother,

Rachel Casey (00:00:17):
writer,

Rachel Casey (00:00:18):
and she is a big advocate for breaking the silence around alcoholism or

Rachel Casey (00:00:23):
sobriety and different terms that we use.

Rachel Casey (00:00:26):
Kristen holds an MFA in creative writing and is currently on Substack, which is how we met.

Rachel Casey (00:00:32):
She shares just really raw,

Rachel Casey (00:00:34):
real,

Rachel Casey (00:00:35):
insightful things about sobriety,

Rachel Casey (00:00:38):
parenting,

Rachel Casey (00:00:39):
and living without alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:00:41):
You also run an entire tree work business, which I am curious to hear.

Rachel Casey (00:00:45):
I think it says chainsaws to motherhood.

Rachel Casey (00:00:48):
Oh, wow.

Rachel Casey (00:00:49):
So welcome, Kristen.

Rachel Casey (00:00:50):
Thank you.

Rachel Casey (00:00:52):
yeah we have tried so hard to schedule this because of both of us having well you

Rachel Casey (00:00:57):
have more kids than i do i have one single kid hey they all get sick the same

Kristen Crocker (00:01:01):
amount i mean they like kid kids are little germ factories that's for sure for you

Colin Casey (00:01:06):
that's got to be almost two month process when one gets it by the time yeah yeah we

Kristen Crocker (00:01:11):
had a pretty brutal we had a pretty brutal winter

Kristen Crocker (00:01:15):
Oh, wow.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:16):
So we have eight kids together combined.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:18):
So my husband and I, we're a blended family.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:20):
So my four stepkids are 14, 10, 8, and 6.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:25):
My boys are, I have a 7-year-old set of twins and then a 6-year-old.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:30):
So the two littlest boys are just one month apart.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:33):
And then we have a 15-month-old.

Colin Casey (00:01:35):
If ever there was a time to do the Brady Bunch boxes in the intro.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:40):
Yeah, it's funny because people always say, oh, the Brady Bunch.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:42):
And I'm always like, and some.

Colin Casey (00:01:44):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:45):
It's not just that.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:46):
So it is six boys and two girls.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:49):
So I always joke.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:52):
So our baby was a planned baby.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:54):
We wanted to have a baby together.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:56):
And definitely everybody thought we were like huge idiots because we already had seven kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:00):
And we have all of them primary custody, actually.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:03):
So we have all of them almost all the time.

Rachel Casey (00:02:06):
Yeah, go ahead.

Rachel Casey (00:02:07):
We want to hear about a little bit of where you are in your life.

Rachel Casey (00:02:11):
Who are you?

Rachel Casey (00:02:12):
Who is Krista?

Kristen Crocker (00:02:13):
Yep, that's an excellent question.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:16):
Still learning.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:18):
Yeah, so when I met my husband, I was actually sober already.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:21):
It was taking me a minute to remember what it was.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:23):
So my sobriety date is December 19, 2022.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:27):
And the reason why I get confused on it is because the whole entire year prior... So I...

Kristen Crocker (00:02:34):
I spent most of that year sober, but I had like a couple of like mini relapses in between.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:38):
And so I always get confused because it was 12-12-21 when I really started getting

Kristen Crocker (00:02:44):
some time,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:45):
like consecutive time,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:46):
because I'd been attempting to get time for a long time.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:50):
So I had like a couple of three-month spurts,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:53):
but it wasn't until December 19th of 2022 that I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:58):
I can't do this anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:00):
And I was actually in AA for that, I would say, that entire year prior.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:04):
So I had been reading a lot of sober, like a lot of the top sobriety books.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:10):
I had joined the luckiest club.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:12):
So I did that book.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:14):
We Are the Luckiest by Laura McCowan was a big deal in my sobriety journey.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:18):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:19):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:20):
And I think that what was so impactful for me in that book was,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:23):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:23):
here was a strong,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:25):
smart woman who just like alcohol was ruining her life,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:29):
you know.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:30):
And so it was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:32):
for me,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:32):
in coming to terms with the fact that I couldn't drink,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:35):
like I didn't have a low bottom.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:36):
I just wasn't showing up in life the way that I wanted to show up anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:40):
And since I had had my kids, I didn't really, I didn't have any legal trouble.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:44):
I held a job, you know, I owned my house.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:46):
I was married.

Rachel Casey (00:03:47):
That was the same with us.

Rachel Casey (00:03:48):
It was very internal.

Rachel Casey (00:03:49):
Yeah, we didn't, we didn't lose the house.

Rachel Casey (00:03:51):
We weren't losing our son.

Colin Casey (00:03:52):
We could have gone lower.

Colin Casey (00:03:53):
We could have.

Rachel Casey (00:03:54):
Right, right, right.

Colin Casey (00:03:55):
And thankfully we didn't, because I mean, I'm still reminded of, I was, I feel like,

Colin Casey (00:04:01):
this close to losing my job when someone kind of questioned my sobriety at work.

Colin Casey (00:04:08):
And so that was and I work at a place that has a zero alcohol tolerance.

Colin Casey (00:04:12):
So when I came back from a lunch break,

Colin Casey (00:04:14):
Yeah,

Colin Casey (00:04:15):
it was kind of obvious,

Colin Casey (00:04:16):
and I blamed Don a bunch of cold medicines and drugs and stressed at home and

Colin Casey (00:04:21):
played it off that way.

Rachel Casey (00:04:23):
He blamed his wife.

Colin Casey (00:04:24):
Yeah, well, that's the go-to.

Colin Casey (00:04:26):
If I had lost that job,

Colin Casey (00:04:27):
I mean,

Colin Casey (00:04:28):
talk about really hitting rock bottom,

Colin Casey (00:04:30):
and that happened maybe three months before we got sober.

Colin Casey (00:04:33):
That was gearing up towards the end.

Colin Casey (00:04:35):
That was around June when that happened, and our sobriety date's November.

Colin Casey (00:04:39):
It was really ramping up those last couple months before we got sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:04:42):
So November, was that...

Kristen Crocker (00:04:44):
just before thanksgiving or yeah giving okay week of yeah oh my gosh and so that's

Rachel Casey (00:04:50):
why i identify so much with what you're saying and i think we're seeing this

Rachel Casey (00:04:55):
cultural shift of you don't have to lose everything before you say it's enough with

Rachel Casey (00:05:01):
alcohol it's okay to just say you can tap out early yeah right i haven't relapsed

Rachel Casey (00:05:06):
since taking my first desire chip but i tried many many times before to quit

Rachel Casey (00:05:12):
drinking

Rachel Casey (00:05:12):
And so I totally relate with you saying,

Rachel Casey (00:05:15):
cause I think had I not had the dry January's and sober October's of like those two

Rachel Casey (00:05:19):
years prior and trying to do a whole 30,

Rachel Casey (00:05:22):
those were my proof that like,

Rachel Casey (00:05:24):
I can't stay sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:25):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:26):
And a couple of times that I relapsed,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:27):
it was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:28):
I was out of town or like,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:29):
well,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:29):
I'm not hurting my kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:31):
So, um, so I was on a trip, you know?

Kristen Crocker (00:05:33):
And so I'm like, okay, well, this is a freebie.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:35):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:35):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:36):
And so, so that, I mean, I, I even texted my best friend and I was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:39):
I was like, well, what if I only drink when I'm out of state?

Kristen Crocker (00:05:43):
What about that?

Kristen Crocker (00:05:44):
And she was like, well, as long as you don't start driving to Virginia to get a drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:48):
And I was just like, of course, I wouldn't do that.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:50):
But then I was like, well, Virginia, you're right.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:51):
I'm on the East Coast.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:52):
The states aren't very big over here.

Rachel Casey (00:05:53):
This is so much easier than the West Coast stuff.

Rachel Casey (00:05:57):
Let's go.

Rachel Casey (00:05:58):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:59):
So actually that was the part in the big book in AA.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:03):
There's a part in the big book where in this chapter,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:05):
more about alcoholism,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:06):
where it says,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:07):
here are some of the methods we have tried,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:08):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:08):
and it's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:09):
we tried switching to beer.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:10):
We promised we would never drink on the job, but you know, we would do this.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:13):
We would do that.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:14):
We would do this.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:15):
And it, and you just end up drunk.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:18):
You know, it never worked out.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:20):
So I feel like in that year,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:21):
those were the couple of things that happened to me where it was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:23):
I cannot.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:24):
And it's not even that I can't drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:26):
It's that it's not a risk I'm willing to take any longer.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:29):
Like, I don't know where.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:31):
And this is obviously a very common phrase in AA that kind of like,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:34):
I don't know where the drink will lead me,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:36):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:36):
and that I just can't.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:37):
That's not a risk that I can take.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:38):
And so that is one of my original missions with with my Substack and with my

Kristen Crocker (00:06:43):
writing.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:44):
was to work on that word to to see if I could move the needle you know kind of join

Kristen Crocker (00:06:48):
in the conversation about the word alcoholic and alcoholism and does alcoholic have

Kristen Crocker (00:06:52):
to be a bad word and that was really kind of like one of my big missions because I

Kristen Crocker (00:06:56):
was just like alcoholic just means a person whose body doesn't respond well to

Kristen Crocker (00:07:01):
alcohol like do we does it need to have this negative connotation and so I'm

Kristen Crocker (00:07:05):
actually kind of in a funny place with that where I'm just like do I need to change

Kristen Crocker (00:07:08):
the meaning of that word or is it just like too much

Kristen Crocker (00:07:10):
So there might just be too much cultural connotation, negative connotation against that word.

Kristen Crocker (00:07:15):
And like,

Rachel Casey (00:07:15):
well,

Rachel Casey (00:07:16):
no,

Rachel Casey (00:07:16):
I totally understand,

Rachel Casey (00:07:17):
though,

Rachel Casey (00:07:17):
because in like it's different when I think the scenarios I would say when you're

Rachel Casey (00:07:24):
in the rooms and you're around a bunch of other people with alcoholics,

Rachel Casey (00:07:29):
like it doesn't feel like a negative word.

Rachel Casey (00:07:32):
It feels like literally just a word or.

Kristen Crocker (00:07:34):
thrown around like that's how you you introduce yourself you know some people say i

Kristen Crocker (00:07:38):
have a desire to be sober some people say i'm in recovery or whatever but a lot of

Kristen Crocker (00:07:41):
different obviously like the everybody is seen in a movie you know it's not just an

Rachel Casey (00:07:46):
alcoholic i know right and the stigma really comes when it's outside of the rooms

Rachel Casey (00:07:52):
or

Rachel Casey (00:07:53):
alcoholic to me is not a negative label until you talk to someone who does not deal

Rachel Casey (00:08:00):
with alcoholism in their family or around.

Rachel Casey (00:08:04):
Like I'm talking about a true normie normie.

Rachel Casey (00:08:07):
They're just like, oh my gosh, are you in the gutters?

Rachel Casey (00:08:09):
No.

Rachel Casey (00:08:10):
Exactly.

Rachel Casey (00:08:11):
No, seriously.

Rachel Casey (00:08:12):
Like, are you going to get contagious?

Rachel Casey (00:08:14):
Do I need to watch you?

Rachel Casey (00:08:15):
Do I need to worry?

Colin Casey (00:08:16):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:08:17):
Like you can't handle any sort of life situations.

Colin Casey (00:08:20):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:20):
I go back and forth because I'm like,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:22):
okay,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:23):
but the grittiness of the word alcoholic and the ugliness of that word,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:27):
maybe that's okay.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:29):
You know what I mean?

Kristen Crocker (00:08:29):
Because like for me, it was an ugly situation.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:32):
It was not a good thing that I did to myself.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:34):
But at the same time,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:35):
like you're saying,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:36):
it's like people are just trying to take this like,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:39):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:39):
like an alcoholic.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:41):
Or it's whispered in families like, oh, they're an alcoholic.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:44):
Oh, they couldn't hold a drop alcoholic.

(00:08:46):
But they didn't.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:47):
It's like on the other side of all that negativity for women and moms,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:52):
it's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:53):
oh,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:53):
here's your mommy juice.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:54):
Oh, of course you're drinking.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:55):
You have to get through the day.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:56):
Or,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:56):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:56):
you mentioned the piece I just had on the sober up Substack about drinking at the

Kristen Crocker (00:09:01):
pool,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:01):
you know?

Kristen Crocker (00:09:02):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:09:02):
So it's like we get there and,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:03):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:04):
everybody's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:05):
oh my God,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:05):
you have all those kids,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:06):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:06):
take a white claw,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:07):
you know?

Kristen Crocker (00:09:07):
And why is that the norm?

Rachel Casey (00:09:09):
Like who says that?

Rachel Casey (00:09:10):
Here, be unpresent.

Rachel Casey (00:09:12):
And like when you're around water, which can be super dangerous with kids.

Rachel Casey (00:09:17):
who said that but that is how people that don't probably have a drinking problem

Rachel Casey (00:09:23):
they think it just like maybe takes the edge off but that's not what it does for me

Rachel Casey (00:09:28):
it ruins my life it takes and then all i can think about is the next drink and now

Rachel Casey (00:09:31):
i'm not thinking about kids in the water i'm thinking about how do i get more

Rachel Casey (00:09:35):
liquor to this pool and still be able to compose myself i feel like that's just

Colin Casey (00:09:39):
been etched in the culture for so even our parents generation but it shouldn't be

Colin Casey (00:09:45):
like no it shouldn't be but

Rachel Casey (00:09:46):
That's that fueled my alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:09:48):
That it was normal that as a mom or as a. It's like you're right.

Rachel Casey (00:09:53):
It's you deserve it.

Rachel Casey (00:09:55):
You.

Rachel Casey (00:09:55):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:09:56):
Even to someone who does not have alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:09:58):
Why are we encouraging?

Rachel Casey (00:10:00):
Because alcohol in the DSM, it's in the same category as drug use.

Rachel Casey (00:10:05):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:10:06):
We don't say, hey, why don't you go do a bump in a line to stay awake at the pool?

Rachel Casey (00:10:10):
Go to some cocaine like you deserve it.

Rachel Casey (00:10:13):
right no one says that because that would be crazy well no normie says that but

Rachel Casey (00:10:19):
yeah no normie or anyone like you know it's the same like hey alcohol it's a

Rachel Casey (00:10:24):
depressant number one yeah or if you replace that hey go take a a prozac a klonopin

Rachel Casey (00:10:30):
a xanax you deserve right you deserve the edge off no one says that right

Rachel Casey (00:10:35):
It's very similar to alcohol and it's super dangerous for people that have an

Rachel Casey (00:10:41):
allergy that makes them like want more.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:43):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:44):
My husband is actually a normie like through and through.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:47):
He doesn't drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:48):
I've seen him drink like twice because we like went to dinner.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:50):
It was like when we first got together.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:52):
I was like, you don't have to not drink because I am not drinking.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:56):
I'm like, you can do whatever you want.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:57):
He orders the Corona and drinks half of it.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:01):
That's always my joke.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:02):
He said his tummy hurts.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:03):
You don't have a 4% beer and you have a tummy ache?

Colin Casey (00:11:07):
Lovely.

Colin Casey (00:11:08):
The way the Lyme interacted with everything.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:11):
And then he had me drive.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:12):
Because he's wasted.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:16):
Are you serious?

Kristen Crocker (00:11:17):
He's just like, I mean, I don't know.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:18):
Anyway, it is funny because he, so he obviously is super, super supportive.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:23):
Going back to what you were saying about,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:25):
he has learned a lot about the program of AA and he does some...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:30):
We'll get into Al-Anon later.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:32):
So Al-Anon is a little bit of a...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:35):
Since he met me in sobriety,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:37):
sometimes he feels like he doesn't quite belong in Al-Anon because...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:40):
Do you remember the movie Half-Baked with Dave Chappelle where he goes to that,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:44):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:45):
drug...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:45):
Or maybe,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:47):
yeah,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:47):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:47):
the thing,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:48):
and he's saying...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:49):
Bob Saget.

(00:11:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:52):
And then Dave Chappelle, yeah.

Colin Casey (00:11:55):
Yeah, but weed is like, no.

Rachel Casey (00:11:57):
And they're throwing tomatoes at himself.

Colin Casey (00:11:59):
Do this, man.

Rachel Casey (00:12:00):
And that downplays alcoholism, which isn't fair.

Rachel Casey (00:12:04):
I'm like, NA really isn't like that.

Rachel Casey (00:12:06):
They are very inclusive of alcohol, but yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:12:08):
And also weed is...

Rachel Casey (00:12:10):
Another one that people think it's not addictive.

Rachel Casey (00:12:14):
It 1000% is.

Colin Casey (00:12:15):
I like your story when you talk to your sponsor about weed.

Rachel Casey (00:12:19):
I did the same thing, by the way.

Rachel Casey (00:12:20):
Just so you feel like you're not alone.

Rachel Casey (00:12:22):
You talk about Virginia trying to drive over there.

Rachel Casey (00:12:25):
The negotiation.

Rachel Casey (00:12:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:12:26):
I thought it would be okay.

Rachel Casey (00:12:28):
It was my first month or two sober and I was just like to my sponsor.

Rachel Casey (00:12:32):
What do they do in Colorado where weed's legal?

Rachel Casey (00:12:35):
How do you...

Rachel Casey (00:12:37):
What are they like there?

Rachel Casey (00:12:38):
And she's like, what do you mean?

Rachel Casey (00:12:40):
And I was like, well, because weed's legal, you can go smoke over there.

Rachel Casey (00:12:44):
If I go to Colorado, I can smoke.

Rachel Casey (00:12:47):
And she's like, Rachel, alcohol is legal.

Rachel Casey (00:12:50):
And you can drink it here.

Rachel Casey (00:12:51):
Just because something is legal does not mean you are not an addict.

Rachel Casey (00:12:56):
He was like, oh, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:12:59):
Okay, because I was like, maybe we could move to Colorado.

Rachel Casey (00:13:01):
And this is something we do not, I don't know that we've talked about because it's been so long.

Rachel Casey (00:13:09):
And this brings back this memory of in the beginning...

Rachel Casey (00:13:13):
And your Virginia story, like when you were newer in sobriety, your brain does try to escape.

Rachel Casey (00:13:18):
I mean, it is a full-time job because my brain was thinking, okay, I can't drink, right?

Rachel Casey (00:13:23):
I've accepted.

Rachel Casey (00:13:24):
I have alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:13:26):
I have step one, two, and three.

Rachel Casey (00:13:28):
I have the allergy.

Rachel Casey (00:13:29):
Now my brain goes, what else can we, like, where can we move to?

Rachel Casey (00:13:33):
Almost like the alien predator or the last of us.

Rachel Casey (00:13:36):
Like it's got to go somewhere.

Rachel Casey (00:13:37):
I wasn't even a big weed smoker.

Rachel Casey (00:13:39):
I would do edibles every now and then.

Rachel Casey (00:13:41):
Usually it was after drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:13:43):
But my brain played that trick,

Rachel Casey (00:13:46):
and had I not had a sponsor,

Rachel Casey (00:13:47):
I could have maybe gone to Colorado and tried to sub weed.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:51):
Yeah, I definitely did have, honestly, some maladaptive coping mechanisms.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:56):
It's so normal, though.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:57):
Yeah, for sure.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:57):
For sure.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:59):
I had prescription anxiety medication, lorazepam, which is, like, not recommended.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:05):
Yeah, perfect.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:06):
People who have an alcohol issue or are prone to addiction.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:10):
I wouldn't say that I was addicted to it.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:12):
So if I felt it was too much, I would take that in that first year of sobriety.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:16):
So I don't count that as relapsing because it was like a prescription drug that I was taking.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:20):
But it wasn't useful.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:21):
I don't take it anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:22):
It kind of got to, and that actually reminds me of Laura McCowan.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:25):
I think she said in her book that she took like

Kristen Crocker (00:14:28):
Oh, that night.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:28):
Or, you know, like something like that.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:30):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:31):
And that was powerful.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:33):
It was similar to that feeling where I was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:14:35):
what the lorazepam started doing to me was I would just like pass out.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:40):
And so I was like, this is too familiar to the passing out of.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:44):
So anyway, so I did obviously stop taking that.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:47):
And I didn't have any kind of like withdrawal or any real issue with stopping it.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:51):
I was just kind of like, this is a pain in the ass.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:53):
I have to feel my feelings.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:54):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:14:55):
But in your reference to Laura McCowan, it was a really powerful move.

Rachel Casey (00:15:00):
And I don't think she wasn't not sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:03):
I don't think you were not sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:05):
I think that there is another thing that is not stressed about enough when we talk

Rachel Casey (00:15:10):
about getting sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:11):
There are levels.

Rachel Casey (00:15:12):
And obviously, I'm not saying... It's just like...

Rachel Casey (00:15:16):
quitting all your vices at once i think it's okay especially if you're with a

Rachel Casey (00:15:21):
doctor you're prescribed this stuff it's it's okay to ease into it if you will like

Rachel Casey (00:15:27):
obviously doing the best you can but at the same time i was on naltrexone before i

Rachel Casey (00:15:32):
got sober and that is a pill that will block

Rachel Casey (00:15:35):
the dopamine release of when you drink.

Rachel Casey (00:15:37):
And I struggled because my psychiatrist is like,

Rachel Casey (00:15:40):
well,

Rachel Casey (00:15:40):
if you're really only drinking a few,

Rachel Casey (00:15:42):
then you shouldn't have any problem taking this.

Rachel Casey (00:15:44):
And I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:15:45):
that raised my alertness to like,

Rachel Casey (00:15:48):
I remember trying to throw up that pill because I like wanted to drink and I'm

Rachel Casey (00:15:51):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:15:51):
I'm trying to throw up a pill.

Rachel Casey (00:15:53):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:15:54):
And I think I might have a problem.

Rachel Casey (00:15:56):
If you're trying to throw up a medicine that blocks that and you realize you want

Rachel Casey (00:16:00):
to drink so badly,

Rachel Casey (00:16:01):
you're like,

Rachel Casey (00:16:01):
how do I get this medication?

Rachel Casey (00:16:02):
Now my sister would ask, is it already going to block the drink?

Rachel Casey (00:16:05):
And it's like, Rachel, come on.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:08):
One thing I really have heard that I like is to quit the things in the order that

Kristen Crocker (00:16:12):
they're killing you.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:14):
You know, so that alcohol was definitely killing me the fastest.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:18):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:16:19):
When you're sober and you're not adding it with alcohol, because I used to drink on lorazepam.

Rachel Casey (00:16:24):
And I know that that's like something you're definitely not supposed to do.

Rachel Casey (00:16:27):
I would be super drunk and I'd be like, I'm stressed.

Rachel Casey (00:16:29):
I'm going to take this.

Rachel Casey (00:16:30):
And I mean, again, the amount of medications.

Rachel Casey (00:16:33):
Who did we talk about that?

Rachel Casey (00:16:34):
I was like, that doesn't apply to me.

Rachel Casey (00:16:35):
Those medications that say don't drink on them.

Rachel Casey (00:16:37):
Those are for losers.

Rachel Casey (00:16:39):
Those are for people that aren't pros like me.

Colin Casey (00:16:42):
Yeah, I remember seeing that.

Colin Casey (00:16:42):
It says not to consume more than two or three drinks.

Rachel Casey (00:16:45):
I was like, all my medications say that.

Rachel Casey (00:16:47):
They don't know me.

Colin Casey (00:16:48):
They don't know me.

Rachel Casey (00:16:49):
They don't know me.

Rachel Casey (00:16:50):
That's for the other people picking up.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:52):
So I smoked cigarettes while I was drinking.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:54):
And then obviously I quit smoking while I was pregnant.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:56):
I pointed upstairs because she's actually upstairs napping.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:59):
When I got pregnant with her, I quit smoking.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:01):
The thing that has always been funny to me is when I got pregnant,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:04):
no problem quitting drinking,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:06):
like no problem or smoking or anything that could potentially harm the baby.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:09):
I was eating leafy greens.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:11):
I was like living, I was doing everything humanly, at least with my twins.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:15):
With my first pregnancy,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:16):
I was all about everything that I could possibly do to give these babies the best

Kristen Crocker (00:17:20):
start.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:20):
It was so easy.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:22):
And so that was another thing that when I started trying to get sober that I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:26):
why was that so easy my love for them like that was such a no-brainer you know and

Kristen Crocker (00:17:31):
it was i didn't even miss it i didn't even think about it although sometimes i do

Kristen Crocker (00:17:34):
think that in my pregnancy with the twins i'm pretty sure i was just on a pink

Rachel Casey (00:17:38):
cloud but i didn't have a problem either like we weren't trying to get pregnant i

Rachel Casey (00:17:42):
didn't even think i could get pregnant to be honest i was like eight weeks when i

Rachel Casey (00:17:46):
found out not super but not like having the baby because i did not know i was

Rachel Casey (00:17:52):
pregnant right before

Rachel Casey (00:17:53):
I felt so guilty.

Rachel Casey (00:17:55):
I was so scared.

Rachel Casey (00:17:57):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:17:58):
I was in a rush to get a sonogram because I was... Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:18:01):
And I didn't tell anyone.

Rachel Casey (00:18:02):
I didn't tell doctors.

Rachel Casey (00:18:03):
I don't think I've said it till now.

Rachel Casey (00:18:05):
Like,

Rachel Casey (00:18:05):
and I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:18:05):
I don't know that we...

Colin Casey (00:18:07):
I think everyone told us the first couple weeks doesn't really affect.

Rachel Casey (00:18:11):
But I like would not touch a drop of alcohol because I was already worried.

Rachel Casey (00:18:15):
I think that was the most stressful seven months of like,

Rachel Casey (00:18:19):
I just wanted him to be born and I just wanted to see him.

Colin Casey (00:18:22):
Well,

Colin Casey (00:18:22):
I remember in the middle of your pregnancy,

Colin Casey (00:18:24):
because just like you,

Colin Casey (00:18:25):
Kristen,

Colin Casey (00:18:26):
I mean,

Colin Casey (00:18:26):
she was feeling really good on her cloud nine.

Colin Casey (00:18:30):
At one point, she looked at me and said, I don't know if I'll ever drink again.

Colin Casey (00:18:33):
I did that too.

Rachel Casey (00:18:33):
I don't remember saying that.

Colin Casey (00:18:36):
she said that i remember thinking well i definitely don't want to live with someone

Colin Casey (00:18:41):
that doesn't want to drink anymore because i like drinking and i remember i was

Colin Casey (00:18:46):
telling people i was drinking for three because of her being pregnant my first

Kristen Crocker (00:18:51):
husband had a child so i had a stepson from my first marriage he was

Kristen Crocker (00:18:57):
13 or 14 years apart.

Kristen Crocker (00:18:58):
So he was 14 when I got, you know, 13, 14 when I got pregnant.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:03):
And he said to me, do you think you'll start drinking again?

Kristen Crocker (00:19:05):
And I remember I said, I don't know.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:08):
I am really enjoying this.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:09):
And I really, I mean, I really was.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:12):
And I was at that time, it's kind of interesting, I guess, thinking back.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:16):
So that would have been, they were born in 2017, almost eight years ago.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:20):
I knew

Kristen Crocker (00:19:22):
for a long, long, long, long time that I had an alcohol issue.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:26):
And I just kept thinking I would get it under control.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:28):
Or that, just again, kind of like, well, I'm still young.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:32):
But that was one of the first times I thought, well, this isn't so bad, actually.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:37):
It wasn't like, because I was really, truly pink cloud.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:41):
Then they were born.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:43):
My twins were born, actually.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:46):
And then they were born and it was all off.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:50):
Well, well, so the crazy part about that.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:52):
So, so they were born eight weeks early.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:54):
So they were in the NICU for 40 days.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:56):
That was really, really, really rough.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:58):
They're all good now.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:58):
Everything's fine.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:59):
I was fortunate.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:00):
They were born at 32 weeks,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:01):
which is like not quite a cutoff,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:02):
but like,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:03):
that's kind of like when things were probably 36 for twins.

Rachel Casey (00:20:06):
Like that's very common.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:08):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:08):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:09):
So at 32, everything's probably going to be okay.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:12):
It was super, it was horrible.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:13):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:14):
Horrible.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:15):
No idea.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:15):
It was really bad.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:16):
But anyway, but so, so I was told that I was having a really hard time with milk production.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:22):
I was trying to pump that.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:23):
So they weren't,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:24):
they couldn't nurse,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:25):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:25):
cause they were in their little incubator or whatever.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:28):
And so I was trying to pump and that was not going very well.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:31):
Somebody said that a beer would encourage milk production.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:34):
And so that, that was, I was off to the races after that.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:37):
It was like, I was like, Oh, if I drink a stout.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:39):
So I found these 15% stouts.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:41):
I was like, well, just, this is good for the,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:43):
This is good for the milk.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:45):
Sleep great tonight.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:47):
For milk production.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:48):
So I did drink while I was breastfeeding.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:50):
And I have to like, my OB said that it was like, that was fine.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:55):
You know, she said not a whole lot gets passed to them.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:58):
I probably interpreted that as I wanted to hear it.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:01):
Being sober now.

Rachel Casey (00:21:01):
I drank with breastfeeding and had to like time interval.

Rachel Casey (00:21:05):
And I can't tell you how many milk test strips we bought, but it was way, way too many.

Rachel Casey (00:21:11):
and like I would label some for like a bath milk because I was like oops too much

Kristen Crocker (00:21:17):
too much margarita not for feeding yeah exactly exactly I would put the number of

Rachel Casey (00:21:28):
drinks I have and like what the milk tested as and

Rachel Casey (00:21:32):
Looking back, red flag.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:35):
And then I breastfed my third son from my second pregnancy.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:38):
I spent a lot of time Googling and texting my friends like, you think it's okay, right?

Kristen Crocker (00:21:42):
I think I'm really hungover.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:43):
You know, been just being scared.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:44):
So having this baby and not having to worry about any of those things with nursing

Kristen Crocker (00:21:48):
her has been such a...

Rachel Casey (00:21:51):
Oh, my God.

Rachel Casey (00:21:52):
It has to be the biggest mental because half of my brain was dedicated to how I

Rachel Casey (00:21:59):
could drink and breastfeed and pump and dump.

Rachel Casey (00:22:02):
And I'm like, this is just mortifying.

Rachel Casey (00:22:07):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:22:08):
i'm like god i need so then i would drink while feeding because it wouldn't hit my

Rachel Casey (00:22:13):
system and so then i remember that i remember doing that yeah yeah all these

Rachel Casey (00:22:18):
sentences are like most people who don't have a drinking problem don't ever wonder

Rachel Casey (00:22:23):
if they have a drinking problem i'm sure your husband has never thought do i have a

Rachel Casey (00:22:27):
drinking problem where i thought that after the third time i drink alcohol i'm like

Rachel Casey (00:22:30):
yeah

Rachel Casey (00:22:31):
do i have a drinking problem i thought that every single day my google search

Rachel Casey (00:22:35):
history how fast is the milk i was like a scientist man yeah yeah me too me too i

Kristen Crocker (00:22:42):
mean seriously well and again like it's like what like i just when i think about

Kristen Crocker (00:22:45):
like an aa word the insanity of that it's just like oh my god seriously but it was

Rachel Casey (00:22:51):
just totally normal oh it was worth it i'm like i won't forget

Rachel Casey (00:22:56):
pumping and dumping, sitting in a dive bar bathroom for fancy football.

Rachel Casey (00:23:02):
I'm in this closed stall,

Rachel Casey (00:23:04):
super drunk,

Rachel Casey (00:23:05):
looking at all this milk I'm going to throw in the toilet.

Rachel Casey (00:23:08):
And I was just like, this has to, like, it didn't feel good.

Rachel Casey (00:23:11):
Like, I remember that moment so clearly of being like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:14):
this doesn't even feel fun.

Rachel Casey (00:23:17):
This feels, it was sad.

Rachel Casey (00:23:18):
But what did I do?

Rachel Casey (00:23:19):
I continued drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:23:21):
And then I probably cried.

Rachel Casey (00:23:22):
And it was like, really, it was not fun.

Rachel Casey (00:23:26):
It became unfun more than it was fun,

Rachel Casey (00:23:30):
which is why I think at the point that it came where I was just like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:36):
I can't do this anymore.

Rachel Casey (00:23:37):
And before AA, I didn't know how many people out there

Rachel Casey (00:23:41):
were like me.

Rachel Casey (00:23:42):
So AA,

Rachel Casey (00:23:43):
my first meeting,

Rachel Casey (00:23:44):
was really an introduction to be like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:47):
there's a lot more like me than I think.

Rachel Casey (00:23:49):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:23:50):
Yeah, I think you just said it too, Kristen.

Colin Casey (00:23:53):
Like when you hear some of the things in AA, people doing the same thing you're doing.

Colin Casey (00:23:58):
Because when you're doing it, you don't think it's crazy.

Colin Casey (00:24:00):
But when you hear someone else say it, you're kind of like, that guy's fucking insane.

(00:24:06):
Right, right, right.

Colin Casey (00:24:08):
Why is he doing that?

Colin Casey (00:24:09):
And then it clicks, I'm doing that too.

Colin Casey (00:24:11):
And then you're like, I'm insane.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:15):
Or just that endless negotiation of, can I drive to Virginia?

Kristen Crocker (00:24:20):
What am I trying to... Again, when you talk about things, my husband has never thought that.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:26):
That, yeah.

Colin Casey (00:24:27):
You're doing historical sites in Virginia.

Colin Casey (00:24:29):
Exactly.

Colin Casey (00:24:30):
And I am grateful that the...

Kristen Crocker (00:24:35):
I'm just always,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:35):
I'm grateful every day that I've accepted that I'm a better person when I don't

Kristen Crocker (00:24:41):
drink alcohol.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:41):
I was not having the fun I thought I was having.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:44):
I think that was the other realization was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:46):
this is not making me like a cool mom or,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:50):
and so again,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:51):
back to my,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:52):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:52):
my

Kristen Crocker (00:24:53):
it's always awkward i'm always like my ex step kid my former well i'm still in

Kristen Crocker (00:24:58):
touch with we're still close so that's why it's just always awkward i'm like this

Kristen Crocker (00:25:01):
sounds so rude i'm but how do i describe this relationship anyway so my ex-stepson

Kristen Crocker (00:25:07):
did there were times he said like i thought i was really fun because i would stay

Kristen Crocker (00:25:12):
up late getting wasted and play monopoly

Kristen Crocker (00:25:15):
You know, I could play so much Monopoly.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:18):
I had so much patience for Monopoly.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:22):
You're like drunk counting the dollars.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:23):
How much money is it?

Kristen Crocker (00:25:25):
Yeah, yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:25):
It's money anyway.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:26):
Seriously.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:26):
And so there were a couple times that he said he didn't like that I drank that were

Kristen Crocker (00:25:30):
really painful.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:31):
But that, and I remember my thought being, my thought legitimately was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:25:37):
when are you going back to your mom's?

Kristen Crocker (00:25:40):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:41):
Like, you know, and when, like, like, God, that hurts so deep.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:46):
I'm not ready to, you know, like, and we actually had primary custody of him as well.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:50):
So it was not very often that he was gone.

Rachel Casey (00:25:52):
But I relate to that too,

Rachel Casey (00:25:53):
because my mom to help got me sober is before helping me get sober,

Rachel Casey (00:25:59):
suggested AA.

Rachel Casey (00:26:00):
I knew she was in AA.

Rachel Casey (00:26:01):
Oh, I didn't know that your mom.

Rachel Casey (00:26:02):
No, I didn't know that your mom.

Rachel Casey (00:26:03):
But a lot of the times when I would call and complain about something that happened

Rachel Casey (00:26:07):
a hundred percent of the time due to drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:26:09):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:26:10):
Her first question would be, were you drinking?

Rachel Casey (00:26:13):
and i would get mad i would be like you're not even understanding by i would

Rachel Casey (00:26:17):
totally shut off and be like how or if she was over in person i'm like if she asked

Rachel Casey (00:26:21):
me were you drinking i'm like when can she leave get her out she doesn't understand

Rachel Casey (00:26:27):
it's not about the drinking like she's just like she always points there so i mean

Kristen Crocker (00:26:31):
i totally understand but i also like i mean there was definitely something inside

Kristen Crocker (00:26:35):
me like

Kristen Crocker (00:26:37):
This isn't how you want to show up.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:39):
I don't want the thought to be, when are you leaving so that I can do what I really want to do.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:44):
There were a couple of times like that.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:46):
And so he actually stayed in the Pacific Northwest when we moved to North Carolina.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:50):
So then I did have free for all.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:51):
But that was another big thing about my kids, about my kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:55):
So they were three and four-ish when I got sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:58):
I just remember them looking at me like they trust me so much.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:05):
They trust me implicitly.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:06):
They love me and I love them looking in their eyes.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:09):
I have to show up for them.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:10):
In AA, you can't get sober for anyone else.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:12):
There's a twist with how I got sober because I got sober so I could be the mom that

Kristen Crocker (00:27:16):
I want to be.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:17):
So it really was for me.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:18):
But it was because I was so moved by the amount of love I had for my kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:22):
And I thought, why am I okay treating myself like shit?

Kristen Crocker (00:27:25):
Why am I okay just like abusing myself?

Rachel Casey (00:27:28):
my body and i haven't drank the way i used to drink oh my god i would be like what

Rachel Casey (00:27:32):
are you doing yeah oh my gosh i know i would freak out yeah yeah and be like give

Rachel Casey (00:27:39):
it over here i 100 understand what you're saying i don't know if he's ever

Rachel Casey (00:27:44):
experienced it but like when i first was sober with evan who was also two and i

Rachel Casey (00:27:50):
just sat there and i was like

Rachel Casey (00:27:52):
i'm in charge are they sure they want to leave me here i'm a stay-at-home mom i'm

Rachel Casey (00:27:57):
like i'm are you sure yeah because i feel like this is probably like yeah you do or

Rachel Casey (00:28:04):
you're like oh my god like i have i am the parrot what is happening right now i get

Rachel Casey (00:28:11):
it i totally have felt that i'm so responsible

Kristen Crocker (00:28:14):
And the other thing that happened for me is that my ex-husband and I were starting to separate.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:20):
Like a year and a half after they were born, he was home.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:23):
So I didn't feel as bad about getting drunk.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:26):
It was like, okay, there's a house fire.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:28):
I guess he'll figure it out.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:29):
Hopefully he can wake me up.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:34):
That was a big turning point.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:35):
And I'm still really processing this and trying to...

Kristen Crocker (00:28:42):
My alcoholism, I would say, did not lead to the demise of my marriage.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:47):
We had a lot of fun together when we didn't have kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:51):
So once that real world, like, and, you know, now I live in a house in the suburbs.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:56):
We met in grad school.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:57):
We were writers.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:58):
Like,

Kristen Crocker (00:28:59):
this many children,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:02):
elementary school life was not necessarily like what was,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:05):
what we set out to do.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:06):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:07):
our circumstances changed in a way that,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:09):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:10):
obviously our fault,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:11):
we weren't necessarily together.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:13):
If that makes, you know what I mean?

Kristen Crocker (00:29:14):
So,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:14):
so that kind of like is,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:16):
is where we began to separate,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:18):
but it really did take a separating for me to like,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:21):
so he is,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:22):
I would say he is in a much healthier place now and I'm in a much healthier place

Kristen Crocker (00:29:26):
now.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:27):
Um, you know, we're, we're,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:30):
We're both showing up for our kids in a way that I don't think we were when we were

Kristen Crocker (00:29:36):
together,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:36):
if that makes sense.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:37):
I was not going to get sober not being single.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:39):
One thing I have to say about being single when I was getting sober was really nice

Kristen Crocker (00:29:43):
because I only had to worry about myself.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:45):
I know you guys were married when you got sober.

Rachel Casey (00:29:46):
In my head, I was single the first year.

Colin Casey (00:29:48):
Yeah, that's true.

Colin Casey (00:29:50):
on whether it's easier or harder because I've had my sponsor thinks it was harder

Colin Casey (00:29:55):
than like our method of just being married and I'm looking at other people in the

Colin Casey (00:30:01):
rooms who are single and have so much downtime I'm like how do you guys stay sober

Colin Casey (00:30:06):
I'm trying to raise a toddler and keep a job like I was so busy like my time my day

Rachel Casey (00:30:13):
was so he was busy on apartments.com don't let him fool you well yeah

Colin Casey (00:30:17):
Where are they going to find themselves?

Rachel Casey (00:30:19):
And then he was like, that's so much money.

Rachel Casey (00:30:21):
He's like, hmm.

Colin Casey (00:30:23):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:30:25):
Come back to reality.

Rachel Casey (00:30:26):
But really, the first year, I felt kind of guilty not being home.

Rachel Casey (00:30:30):
But at that point, my recovery...

Rachel Casey (00:30:35):
My recovery still does come first, but my recovery is more stable now.

Rachel Casey (00:30:39):
In the beginning, I don't even think I really thought about it.

Rachel Casey (00:30:42):
My sponsor was like, table the marriage.

Kristen Crocker (00:30:45):
Right, right, right.

Kristen Crocker (00:30:46):
No big decisions for a year, right?

Rachel Casey (00:30:48):
Since I wasn't fueled by alcohol, it's not like we were really getting in fights.

Rachel Casey (00:30:52):
I was doing...

Rachel Casey (00:30:54):
personal inventories and i was really seeing my side of the marriage which i was

Rachel Casey (00:30:59):
not upholding he was working full-time so i mean there really was uh in our first

Rachel Casey (00:31:05):
year of sobriety this i had i just kind of focused on me so like i was married but

Rachel Casey (00:31:12):
i don't think that we really worked on our marriage till like year two

Kristen Crocker (00:31:19):
Which makes a whole lot of sense.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:20):
You don't even really know what you're working with.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:22):
Like,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:22):
I feel like when I first got sober,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:24):
like I didn't,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:24):
I was not really sure who I was walking through the world,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:27):
which was funny,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:28):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:28):
because I'm like,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:28):
here I am in my 30s and I'm just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:31):
that was another thing with parenting my kids where I'm trying to teach them Mr.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:34):
Rogers stuff about how to deal with their feelings.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:36):
What does mommy do when she's mad?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:38):
You know what I'm like?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:38):
What does mommy do when she's sad?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:40):
Oh, I drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:40):
Shit.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:41):
What does mommy do when she's bored?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:42):
Oh, fuck.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:46):
Any emotion that mommy feels.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:48):
Obviously, I'm not saying this out loud.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:50):
And then the other thing that was really helpful for me,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:53):
and I've written about this,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:54):
just the idea of the Zoom meetings is what really saved me.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:57):
So I could always just have a Zoom meeting in my ear.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:59):
And so I was just always listening to meetings.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:01):
I have a super, super strong foundation today.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:04):
In AA, like in what people say in the rooms.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:08):
I really, really, really, really fixated on the literature.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:11):
That's one thing that I do feel is not stressed enough in the rooms is to talk

Kristen Crocker (00:32:15):
about the literature.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:16):
But it is hard to read the big book, though.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:18):
And that was one of the things.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:19):
Thank you.

Rachel Casey (00:32:20):
Yes.

Rachel Casey (00:32:20):
Okay,

Rachel Casey (00:32:21):
so we have to get into this because we've talked about this through messaging on

Rachel Casey (00:32:24):
Substack.

Rachel Casey (00:32:25):
First, I will disclose we do not represent AA.

Rachel Casey (00:32:30):
Of course.

Rachel Casey (00:32:30):
We are in no way like every AA group is autonomous within themselves.

Rachel Casey (00:32:35):
It's self ran.

Rachel Casey (00:32:37):
We are just people that got sober.

Rachel Casey (00:32:41):
that have no power, position, representation.

Rachel Casey (00:32:44):
Like we are not any way affiliated.

Rachel Casey (00:32:47):
We are just people that got sober and have been in the rooms of AA.

Rachel Casey (00:32:51):
And this is like our observations or takes.

(00:32:54):
And I've read the book.

Rachel Casey (00:32:55):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:32:56):
So with saying that.

Rachel Casey (00:32:58):
Which is public.

Rachel Casey (00:32:58):
Like, I mean, come on.

Rachel Casey (00:33:00):
It's seriously.

Rachel Casey (00:33:01):
So when I posted at one month sober, I posted on social.

Rachel Casey (00:33:06):
And I do remember getting...

Rachel Casey (00:33:10):
a talk from other people in the group.

Rachel Casey (00:33:13):
I did not like even tag the group, mention the group.

Rachel Casey (00:33:16):
I think I did say something.

Rachel Casey (00:33:19):
Maybe I'll have to go look.

Rachel Casey (00:33:20):
But I was told, hey, we got to talk about tradition 11.

Rachel Casey (00:33:25):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:33:27):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:33:28):
So I've gotten a lot of shit about that.

Rachel Casey (00:33:32):
It didn't really make sense to me because I'm a millennial.

Rachel Casey (00:33:36):
I put a lot of my life on Facebook and it felt weird to not share because it was

Rachel Casey (00:33:44):
like my entire life.

Rachel Casey (00:33:47):
And the other,

Rachel Casey (00:33:49):
I guess I was also just feeling so good that I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:33:53):
I want other people to know how good I feel because we talk about this and it's

Rachel Casey (00:33:58):
gotten even more progressive to 2025.

Rachel Casey (00:34:01):
But in 2020,

Rachel Casey (00:34:03):
2021,

Rachel Casey (00:34:03):
right before I got sober,

Rachel Casey (00:34:04):
I don't think my Instagram reels were full of this positive change that you could

Rachel Casey (00:34:12):
feel this good without alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:34:14):
I kind of felt like,

Rachel Casey (00:34:16):
Like I found the life hack to life.

Rachel Casey (00:34:20):
And I felt almost wrong.

Rachel Casey (00:34:22):
I waited to share it.

Rachel Casey (00:34:23):
People said, oh, what if you relapse?

Rachel Casey (00:34:25):
Like that was the biggest fear thing that they put in front of me.

Rachel Casey (00:34:30):
Aren't you going to be so embarrassed?

Rachel Casey (00:34:31):
Like if you go put that you're sober and then someone sees you drinking in a bar.

Rachel Casey (00:34:35):
And I'm like, if I'm drinking in a bar, we got a lot bigger problems.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:39):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:40):
I'm always like, you know, it's the whole like you don't want.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:44):
So that's what I've heard a lot too.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:45):
Like, what if you relapse?

Kristen Crocker (00:34:46):
That'll make the program look bad.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:48):
That'll show that the program doesn't work.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:50):
And it's like, is it not part of the program to go back?

Kristen Crocker (00:34:54):
Aren't they supposed to welcome you with open arms?

Kristen Crocker (00:34:57):
That doesn't indicate a failure of the program.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:59):
You're just a human being.

Rachel Casey (00:35:02):
I heard the best quote on Jenny and I watched the Jenny and Georgia season three.

Rachel Casey (00:35:06):
I like to have it in the background binge watch.

Rachel Casey (00:35:08):
And the girl said the most profound thing.

Rachel Casey (00:35:11):
And I wrote it down.

Rachel Casey (00:35:12):
Relapse is a part of recovery.

Rachel Casey (00:35:14):
That's why we talk about it.

Rachel Casey (00:35:16):
And I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:35:18):
Boom.

Rachel Casey (00:35:18):
There you go.

Rachel Casey (00:35:19):
Relapse is a part of recovery.

Rachel Casey (00:35:23):
That does not mean you have to go relapse.

Kristen Crocker (00:35:25):
I always hear people say relapse is a part of my story,

Kristen Crocker (00:35:29):
but it doesn't have to be that kind of thing.

Kristen Crocker (00:35:32):
But I'm also always like, I don't recommend it.

Rachel Casey (00:35:35):
but relapse is a part of recovery not talking about it is how it happens yeah yeah

Rachel Casey (00:35:41):
and yeah or it also strengthens your own personal sobriety because relapse is a

Rachel Casey (00:35:47):
part of sobriety if you don't find it for yourself alcoholics are stubborn people

Rachel Casey (00:35:51):
with drinking problems from what i've seen from me personally very personally i'm

Rachel Casey (00:35:55):
very stubborn and had it not been for those

Rachel Casey (00:36:00):
sober October's dry January's the pregnancy the milk all of these things I did on

Rachel Casey (00:36:04):
my fourth step there probably would have been like let me go double check yeah in

Kristen Crocker (00:36:09):
the big book it says

Kristen Crocker (00:36:10):
go back you can easily diagnose yourself try to quit go to a bar and see if you can

Kristen Crocker (00:36:15):
stop drinking quickly you know you know how many times bill relapsed right right

Rachel Casey (00:36:19):
right yeah literally his last trip in the asylum like the dr silkworth he's like

Rachel Casey (00:36:25):
i've found the solution and he's at the loony bin yeah that's right so because he's

Rachel Casey (00:36:31):
like after he talked to ebby he's like i have this profound knowledge and he goes

Rachel Casey (00:36:36):
what did i do

Rachel Casey (00:36:38):
Well, I went and drank.

Rachel Casey (00:36:41):
He's like any normal person with alcoholism would.

Rachel Casey (00:36:44):
This is all in a story.

Rachel Casey (00:36:46):
There's a stigma of sharing because there is this tradition.

Rachel Casey (00:36:51):
11 is not rather than promotion.

Rachel Casey (00:36:54):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:36:55):
You're not supposed to promote yourself because why?

Rachel Casey (00:36:57):
It's ego.

Rachel Casey (00:36:59):
You're not supposed to represent the program.

Rachel Casey (00:37:02):
Yep.

Rachel Casey (00:37:02):
The relapse.

Rachel Casey (00:37:03):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:04):
But I'm always like,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:05):
do you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:05):
one of my big issues with even coming to AA was I thought I had that whole like,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:10):
well,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:10):
it's a cult mentality.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:12):
And so I'm just like, if you're telling me not to talk about it, do you know how culty that is?

Kristen Crocker (00:37:17):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:19):
You're making yourself seem so much like that's making this program seem so much

Kristen Crocker (00:37:23):
more creepy than it is.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:24):
It's not.

Rachel Casey (00:37:28):
If you see anyone struggling,

Rachel Casey (00:37:29):
it is your job to carry the message and to help that person know you recovered and

Rachel Casey (00:37:35):
so that you pass on.

Rachel Casey (00:37:38):
the message so that's your step 12 which they say is the most important carrying

Rachel Casey (00:37:42):
the message right whenever and i am responsible and literally they tell me i'm

Rachel Casey (00:37:46):
responsible for carrying the message but also don't tell anyone right right well so

Kristen Crocker (00:37:51):
that that's where i get confused on on the contradiction between carrying the

Kristen Crocker (00:37:55):
message and keeping it a secret or whatever but so one of the one of the things i

Kristen Crocker (00:37:59):
do like that

Kristen Crocker (00:38:00):
So I guess to me that all kind of goes back to like,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:03):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:03):
you can be too much of a purist of anything kind of,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:05):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:05):
like with,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:06):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:06):
so I do think that people who get hung up on the 11th tradition,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:09):
I don't know what to tell you.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:10):
Like, I don't think that, I don't think that we have time.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:13):
Like women are dying.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:15):
Our livers are corroding.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:18):
I'm into,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:19):
I'm sorry,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:19):
Colin,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:20):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:20):
but,

Rachel Casey (00:38:20):
but,

Rachel Casey (00:38:21):
but I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:38:21):
when you're right,

Rachel Casey (00:38:22):
I mean,

Colin Casey (00:38:22):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (00:38:23):
his,

Rachel Casey (00:38:23):
his liver is such a woman's liver now.

Colin Casey (00:38:26):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:38:28):
I was raised by women.

Rachel Casey (00:38:29):
Just two lesbian moms.

Rachel Casey (00:38:30):
Don't let him fool you.

Colin Casey (00:38:31):
I somehow got their liver.

Colin Casey (00:38:32):
I was raised that way.

Colin Casey (00:38:33):
The nature.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:35):
The gentle soul.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:37):
So yeah, so I get really confused on how to uphold the 11th tradition while still leading.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:43):
But I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:43):
I will say,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:44):
I do think that you might be the only copy of the big book someone ever sees.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:48):
I like that phrasing a lot.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:49):
I like the idea that to lead with my behavior.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:52):
And I think that also goes back to like

Kristen Crocker (00:38:55):
okay, well, it's my job to help somebody if they reach out to me.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:58):
That doesn't mean I need to be going up to every single person.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:01):
Like, so you can do it.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:01):
You can do it wrong.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:05):
You can be,

Kristen Crocker (00:39:06):
it's not your job to,

Kristen Crocker (00:39:07):
it's not my job to pass judgment or diagnose someone else or,

Kristen Crocker (00:39:11):
you know.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:12):
And so that is where I've seen people struggling.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:15):
A lot of the things we've said, no normal person asks

Kristen Crocker (00:39:18):
do i have a drinking problem they just don't worry about it you know and and again

Kristen Crocker (00:39:22):
to to pivot the question to less am i an alcoholic and more like would i be better

Kristen Crocker (00:39:27):
served is this causing problems in my life you know would i be better served by not

Rachel Casey (00:39:31):
drinking and again that's your husband he would be like what uh i don't think so

Rachel Casey (00:39:36):
like i've never really thought about it and then you're like

Kristen Crocker (00:39:40):
you're excused please leave the class right it's like you're not selected it's just

Kristen Crocker (00:39:45):
not a big deal to him he drank he had a beer at one dinner and then his parents

Kristen Crocker (00:39:50):
came one time and i really wanted you know these are like my new in-laws and i

Kristen Crocker (00:39:54):
wanted to have wine for them so we had wine at the house and he was really freaked

Kristen Crocker (00:39:57):
out about it there's a boundary or crossing and you know i'm just like no my

Kristen Crocker (00:40:01):
spiritual condition is fine

Kristen Crocker (00:40:03):
It's all good.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:05):
You're just,

Kristen Crocker (00:40:06):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:06):
on the nanny cam,

Rachel Casey (00:40:07):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:07):
you're just constantly looking at the bottle,

Rachel Casey (00:40:09):
and you're just,

Rachel Casey (00:40:09):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:40:10):
everywhere,

Rachel Casey (00:40:10):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:11):
all eyes,

Rachel Casey (00:40:12):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:12):
sneaking around the corner and,

Rachel Casey (00:40:13):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:40:13):
looking at it.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:15):
I will say I did not want to keep it in my house overnight.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:18):
Or, you know, I just didn't want to.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:19):
Like, I just didn't want to.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:20):
So it did not bother me to have it serving.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:23):
It actually made me feel kind of...

Kristen Crocker (00:40:25):
empowered you know that i could have it at my house but i wouldn't want to keep it

Kristen Crocker (00:40:29):
here that's the only other time he's had like a glass of wine and that was actually

Kristen Crocker (00:40:33):
super funny because i got rid of all my wine all my like drinking pair stuff so i

Rachel Casey (00:40:39):
was like you didn't almost say drinking paraphernalia i was gonna say paraphernalia

Rachel Casey (00:40:46):
i was like please say that that's hilarious

Kristen Crocker (00:40:50):
It was really funny because,

Rachel Casey (00:40:52):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:40:52):
they're like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:52):
there's drinking paraphernalia in this place.

Rachel Casey (00:40:56):
They have a whole shrine to it.

Rachel Casey (00:40:58):
It's a whole cabinet.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:01):
It was pretty funny because I was trying to, again, be a nice hostess to my new in-laws.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:08):
And I'm just like, here's your wine.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:10):
I have coffee cups.

Rachel Casey (00:41:12):
It was great.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:16):
Here's the mismatched coffee cups.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:19):
Enjoy.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:21):
That's how I used to drink mine.

Rachel Casey (00:41:23):
So I don't know about you.

Rachel Casey (00:41:24):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:25):
I drink my wine out of a pint glass.

Rachel Casey (00:41:26):
It was not good.

Rachel Casey (00:41:28):
Oh yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:28):
No, same.

Rachel Casey (00:41:29):
I did not care.

Rachel Casey (00:41:30):
It was whatever glass was clean.

Rachel Casey (00:41:32):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:41:33):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:41:34):
Our rule.

Rachel Casey (00:41:35):
But to, to also go back on,

Rachel Casey (00:41:39):
The literature is hard to read.

Rachel Casey (00:41:42):
I got really upset and hurt at the rejection of the fifth grade reading level book.

Rachel Casey (00:41:48):
Like, that was suggested for AA to make it at... And people were so...

Rachel Casey (00:41:56):
rude about it i completely agree there are people that did not grow up in good

Rachel Casey (00:42:01):
homes and don't have good schools and were very poor because their parents spent

Rachel Casey (00:42:05):
all the money on alcohol and i'm not blaming the parents because i get it like i

Rachel Casey (00:42:10):
they were living in a disease and i've been in that disease and it's scary right

Rachel Casey (00:42:15):
but to say that you won't let a breakdown because it doesn't translate

Rachel Casey (00:42:20):
It's still scary.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:22):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:22):
That's exactly what I was just going to say.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:24):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:24):
So why are you putting more barriers for people to access Design for Living, this program?

Kristen Crocker (00:42:30):
Why make it hard?

Kristen Crocker (00:42:31):
And that's the same kind of thing going back to kind of like the curious,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:33):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:34):
where it's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:35):
well,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:35):
I had to sit there.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:36):
I had my sponsor told me to get a thesaurus and to sit down and look up or not a

Kristen Crocker (00:42:40):
dictionary and look up every word I didn't know,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:43):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:43):
and it's just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:44):
Well, that sounds like a pain, like really difficult.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:47):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:49):
They had cell phones back then.

Rachel Casey (00:42:50):
It was easier.

Rachel Casey (00:42:52):
And for someone who is already struggling, isn't the goal to make it simple for them?

Kristen Crocker (00:42:58):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:42:58):
The whole chapter to the wives.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:02):
The first time I saw that, I was like, I can't do this.

Rachel Casey (00:43:05):
I didn't like that one.

Rachel Casey (00:43:07):
I didn't.

Rachel Casey (00:43:08):
I really don't like the to the wives.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:11):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:11):
That it presumes both that you have a wife or that there is a wife.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:15):
Again, back to that kind of like, what about husband, husband?

Kristen Crocker (00:43:18):
Or, you know, like whatever, non-binary, you know, all those kinds of things.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:21):
And that the woman is the one supporting the man who has the drinking problems.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:25):
That's another thing that I think in the big book makes it.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:28):
Well, women couldn't vote when the big book was made.

Rachel Casey (00:43:30):
I want that to sink in.

(00:43:32):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:43:33):
Women made 60 cents to every dollar a man made.

Rachel Casey (00:43:36):
That was 20 years after the big book was written.

Rachel Casey (00:43:40):
It was married men were, you know, married women.

Rachel Casey (00:43:43):
They were...

Rachel Casey (00:43:45):
not working they were childbearing which is why there's this chapter to the wives

Rachel Casey (00:43:49):
yes your husband's going to have to leave the home and help an alcoholic who's

Rachel Casey (00:43:54):
dying and you're going to have to say he's a better man for it didn't they also say

Colin Casey (00:43:59):
you have to bring home a drunk to sleep on the couch every now and then

Rachel Casey (00:44:03):
They say, I think so.

Colin Casey (00:44:04):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:44:05):
And that's in the beginning of, I think working with others, but yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:09):
So I liked the voice that you read it in though,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:10):
because like,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:11):
I'm being serious because that is the language that like,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:16):
that is the way that it reads.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:17):
Is that like, it's like this old timey.

Colin Casey (00:44:21):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:22):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:23):
I have a,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:23):
I have a post about on reading the big book and how,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:26):
how I like let go of my,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:28):
like how I could read it for the message as opposed to like being just,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:31):
because if you,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:33):
if I critique it with a 21st century feminist lens,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:36):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:36):
it is horrible.

Rachel Casey (00:44:38):
It's horrible.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:39):
Don't put a feminist lens on it.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:41):
And so that is really bad.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:43):
So that old tiny radio announcer voice kind of thing that is like,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:47):
how I had to read it.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:48):
So I actually like that you did that because that's...

Rachel Casey (00:44:52):
that's how I hear it well it's hard to not do it in that way and I think we all

Rachel Casey (00:44:58):
agree that it's like I'm not saying that this book did not save my life my I am

Rachel Casey (00:45:03):
deeply grateful I am indebted to the program that and he stumbled upon something

Rachel Casey (00:45:12):
that has helped just I mean beyond millions because there is the ripple effect that

Rachel Casey (00:45:16):
oh yeah

Rachel Casey (00:45:18):
us being sober also affects heaven there's that ripple so you think of how many and

Rachel Casey (00:45:22):
how many but the literature is very much stigmatized to the point where i think

Rachel Casey (00:45:31):
they're the ones carrying the stigma and that's a problem right right because now

Rachel Casey (00:45:38):
it's like you you've protected it now

Rachel Casey (00:45:42):
But we have to go if you're not evolving with the times.

Rachel Casey (00:45:48):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:45:48):
You're actually probably hurting the message and making it less inclusive.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:55):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:56):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:56):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:57):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:57):
And I just don't see the issue with having this is the it's not like we have to

Kristen Crocker (00:46:01):
that one has to go away forever.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:03):
You know, that's the one that was written then.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:05):
So now it's a piece of history to be read as as it's.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:09):
was written,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:10):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:10):
to like examine,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:12):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:13):
to,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:13):
you could do whatever you want with it,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:14):
but to,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:15):
to distill that message into a more,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:17):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:17):
just a,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:18):
yeah,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:19):
less offensive,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:19):
honestly,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:21):
less.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:21):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:21):
But some people in AA would like lose their minds talking about revising,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:26):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:26):
changing,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:27):
um,

Rachel Casey (00:46:28):
anything you saw that happened because exactly you're right right the people and so

Rachel Casey (00:46:33):
because it says this is how men and women and there was there is a big and guess

Rachel Casey (00:46:40):
what people that identify in the lbg tq they also have alcoholism not all of them

Rachel Casey (00:46:46):
right sorry i was like not generally but

Kristen Crocker (00:46:49):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:49):
They did change it to people, though, right?

Kristen Crocker (00:46:51):
In the preamble.

Rachel Casey (00:46:51):
They changed it back.

Rachel Casey (00:46:52):
It got revoked.

Rachel Casey (00:46:54):
Well, I didn't know that.

Rachel Casey (00:46:55):
It got revoked.

Rachel Casey (00:46:56):
And that's what I'm saying because people threw such a hissy fit that it needs to be preserved.

Rachel Casey (00:47:02):
And you want to know where that really derives from if you're going in the history?

Rachel Casey (00:47:05):
Al-Anon.

Rachel Casey (00:47:07):
It was Bill's wife who started Al-Anon after he passed and was like, don't touch Al-Anon.

Rachel Casey (00:47:14):
anything leave it as is like the bible that was not what he wanted he said let it

Rachel Casey (00:47:21):
evolve when dr bob passed his last speech and his last talk with bill was don't

Rachel Casey (00:47:28):
this up don't ruin this don't become almighty and that's where like i think almost

Rachel Casey (00:47:35):
those some traditions were to keep bill in his head because they did want to put

Rachel Casey (00:47:39):
him on the cover of time magazine

Rachel Casey (00:47:42):
That's where his ego started growing.

Rachel Casey (00:47:45):
And that's where some of the traditions was made,

Rachel Casey (00:47:48):
where he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:47:50):
we don't want to have like one public because Bill even to himself said he didn't

Rachel Casey (00:47:55):
want to be the end all be all because he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:47:58):
God gave me this gift.

Rachel Casey (00:47:59):
My higher power gave me this gift.

Rachel Casey (00:48:01):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:48:02):
And I think we're like, yeah, attraction, not promotion.

Rachel Casey (00:48:07):
A better phrase would be attraction, not preaching, not name calling, not pointing.

Rachel Casey (00:48:13):
I would never point the finger at someone and say, you should go to AA.

Rachel Casey (00:48:20):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:48:20):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:21):
the other thing is,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:22):
so when I told some of my friends from grad school that I was in AA,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:25):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:26):
they were shocked.

Kristen Crocker (00:48:27):
You know, I mean, they were just not, not that I had a drinking problem.

Kristen Crocker (00:48:32):
but that I was attending what they thought,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:35):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:35):
was like a religious cult,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:37):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:37):
and I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:38):
it's not a religious cult,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:39):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:39):
like it's,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:40):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:41):
the people,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:42):
but again,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:44):
some groups operate more religious culty you know so so the the the group that i

Kristen Crocker (00:48:51):
found um you know that i really really like is a more progressive open-minded

Kristen Crocker (00:48:56):
well-educated group of women you know who are who are not that you have to be well

Kristen Crocker (00:48:59):
educated but what my point there is that like

Kristen Crocker (00:49:02):
It was not in the gutter.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:06):
You know, it was not those people.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:08):
And that like that, like blew my mind.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:09):
And so that's why I also want to be vocal about the fact that I am in that AA was

Kristen Crocker (00:49:15):
was a huge component of what got me sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:17):
It was not the only thing.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:19):
It was not, you know, the like taking the first step and doing all that.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:23):
But like, you know, that was not the only thing that did it for me.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:27):
I had to like I had like a bunch of other shit going on,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:29):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:30):
like like therapy and learning the neuroscience of it.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:34):
And,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:34):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:34):
I was doing a lot of like energy work and energy healing and all those kinds of

Kristen Crocker (00:49:39):
things.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:40):
But it was it was a huge component.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:43):
And I just,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:44):
again,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:45):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:45):
when,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:46):
so I had a friend that I met at a writer's conference who was in AA and that,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:50):
again,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:51):
shocked me because I was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:53):
but you're so cool.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:53):
I was like, you're young and fun and like, you're not a psycho.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:00):
Not anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:00):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:01):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:02):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:03):
And so,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:04):
so I just think that it's so unfortunate for AA itself to,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:09):
to put itself kind of in that category,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:11):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:11):
to,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:11):
to kind of like,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:14):
not allow people to pick up the true message,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:17):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:17):
which is just that they're like,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:19):
there's freedom out there,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:21):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:21):
and so,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:22):
and taking accountability for your actions.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:24):
I mean, they're pretty basic principles.

Rachel Casey (00:50:27):
They are super basic, but honesty.

Rachel Casey (00:50:30):
What a concept.

Rachel Casey (00:50:32):
I think it's about also the variety of stories that,

Rachel Casey (00:50:37):
so when I think what the connection is to,

Rachel Casey (00:50:41):
and I know that this is how it is for Colin and he can speak to it on his own

Rachel Casey (00:50:45):
behalf.

Rachel Casey (00:50:46):
I know I don't have to speak for him, but finding a group.

Rachel Casey (00:50:49):
Finally.

Rachel Casey (00:50:51):
It's finding a group.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:53):
Sorry, we didn't want to hear your breastfeeding stories.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:54):
Sorry.

Rachel Casey (00:50:55):
You're like, I connect with these women.

Rachel Casey (00:50:58):
You're not like saying it's not because they're necessarily well educated.

Rachel Casey (00:51:01):
It's just that you have more commonalities beyond the alcoholism, too.

Rachel Casey (00:51:05):
And like Colin's favorite group,

Rachel Casey (00:51:08):
it's not even necessarily that it's like AA or rule strict base.

Rachel Casey (00:51:12):
It's like he just likes the people that are regulars there.

Rachel Casey (00:51:15):
And he goes in more for like a check in.

Rachel Casey (00:51:18):
And again,

Rachel Casey (00:51:19):
we also respect the fact that AA helped guide us,

Rachel Casey (00:51:22):
but it's really finding the,

Rachel Casey (00:51:25):
a good group is like people that have problems with alcohol,

Rachel Casey (00:51:30):
but also are like kind of similar to what you're going through in that part of your

Rachel Casey (00:51:33):
life.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:34):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:34):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:35):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:35):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:35):
and the thing that I come back to honestly is that I tried every other,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:40):
I truly was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:43):
I will not AA.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:44):
I mean, that really was like my biggest fear.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:46):
My biggest fear in life was that like,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:49):
that I would have to go to,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:50):
that I would have to go to AA.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:52):
And,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:52):
and what I found,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:54):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:54):
when I,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:55):
and then again,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:56):
when I started going to meetings and,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:58):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:58):
people are there who are like 40 years sober,

Kristen Crocker (00:52:00):
I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:52:02):
Oh my God,

Kristen Crocker (00:52:02):
you're 40 years sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:03):
And you're just like barely hanging on by your fingernails coming to this meeting.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:06):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:07):
And it's just like, no, that was not the case.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:10):
They're there to help other people.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:11):
And like you said, or at least I enjoy the meetings now.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:16):
It's like I get to see my friends.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:17):
I get to hear how other people are dealing with life on life's terms.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:21):
I get to hear how other people are getting through dark shit sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:24):
And just how they...

Kristen Crocker (00:52:27):
they're getting through it sober and and so it's kind of interesting a couple weeks

Kristen Crocker (00:52:30):
ago well it must have been longer ago than that but a while ago i was at a meeting

Kristen Crocker (00:52:35):
um and everyone was probably at least a year sober um and so it was like the whole

Kristen Crocker (00:52:42):
meeting nobody even talked about a drink that was not the the conversation was not

Kristen Crocker (00:52:47):
about putting a drink down it was about maintaining emotional sobriety it was about

Kristen Crocker (00:52:53):
how are we staying sober through like

Kristen Crocker (00:52:55):
Life is still happening.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:57):
How are we staying through?

Kristen Crocker (00:52:58):
How are we staying sober through these things?

Kristen Crocker (00:53:00):
You know,

Kristen Crocker (00:53:00):
and so that was really,

Kristen Crocker (00:53:01):
really cool when we got to the end of the meeting and I texted my sponsor and I was

Kristen Crocker (00:53:04):
just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:53:05):
I don't think anyone has mentioned alcohol at this Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Rachel Casey (00:53:10):
And those are such and I mean, we we realize that.

Rachel Casey (00:53:16):
It goes so much first deeper and beyond the alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:53:20):
So now my question to you is, or both of you even, is how do we go forward?

Rachel Casey (00:53:26):
How do we respect tradition 11,

Rachel Casey (00:53:29):
carry step 12,

Rachel Casey (00:53:31):
and balance it between being people that speak publicly or write publicly in an

Rachel Casey (00:53:38):
open space?

Rachel Casey (00:53:39):
How do we do this respectfully?

Kristen Crocker (00:53:40):
Do you want to go ahead?

Rachel Casey (00:53:41):
Yes.

Colin Casey (00:53:43):
Let me jump in and take this one.

Colin Casey (00:53:47):
Well,

Colin Casey (00:53:47):
I think the second part is,

Colin Casey (00:53:49):
is we live in such a culture now that we're in a kind of influencer base world now.

Colin Casey (00:53:58):
And it's so easier to spread message.

Colin Casey (00:54:00):
I mean, our son now has a YouTube channel of him playing Legos.

Colin Casey (00:54:04):
And yeah, but it's like things like that.

Colin Casey (00:54:07):
We couldn't have done that when I was kids.

Colin Casey (00:54:10):
I mean, I made Lego movies just for me.

Colin Casey (00:54:13):
And it was stop motion.

Colin Casey (00:54:14):
But now Evan can actually like put it on the world and he's just playing with his Legos.

Colin Casey (00:54:18):
It's so easier to share that information.

Rachel Casey (00:54:21):
I think a lot of this is- And I'm cool with other kids watching him play with Legos.

Colin Casey (00:54:25):
Yeah, well, and like you said, it's not preaching.

Colin Casey (00:54:27):
When you put it out here like this,

Colin Casey (00:54:29):
Right.

Colin Casey (00:54:30):
Someone's coming on to whatever podcast they use searching for it,

Colin Casey (00:54:35):
obviously,

Colin Casey (00:54:36):
if they're curious or have a problem with alcohol.

Colin Casey (00:54:39):
So that's why I don't think this is an issue because it's not like we're going to

Colin Casey (00:54:44):
Target selling CDs of our podcast,

Colin Casey (00:54:47):
like listen to this sober pot,

Colin Casey (00:54:49):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:54:49):
trying to find whoever looks like they need it,

Colin Casey (00:54:52):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:54:53):
giving them the message or going up to a homeless guy and say,

Colin Casey (00:54:55):
hey,

Colin Casey (00:54:55):
you have a phone.

Colin Casey (00:54:56):
Download my podcast.

Colin Casey (00:54:58):
Right.

Colin Casey (00:54:59):
You need to hear this.

Colin Casey (00:55:00):
And it's also the thing we've talked about.

Colin Casey (00:55:03):
If this was around, Bill definitely would have been on a podcast.

Colin Casey (00:55:08):
There's recordings of him speaking.

Colin Casey (00:55:10):
So if there's recordings of him speaking about alcohol,

Colin Casey (00:55:14):
then there would be...

Rachel Casey (00:55:16):
He left his money to funding,

Rachel Casey (00:55:17):
like finding...

Rachel Casey (00:55:19):
yeah there'd be a not a cure but something for alcohol like people that have a hard

Rachel Casey (00:55:24):
time getting to the meeting because they're so saturated in alcohol and i think the

Colin Casey (00:55:28):
other thing is you because a in their rule i mean you're seeing a lot of other

Colin Casey (00:55:33):
recovery programs start up and i'm sure they have some sort of a route to them but

Colin Casey (00:55:39):
like recovery elevator smart recovery

Rachel Casey (00:55:42):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:55:42):
you have to understand that AA was built off of stealing it from the,

Rachel Casey (00:55:47):
what should I call it?

Rachel Casey (00:55:48):
Because they're refusing.

Rachel Casey (00:55:50):
Yeah, so they stole from someone else.

Colin Casey (00:55:52):
But they're refusing to change or evolve with the times,

Colin Casey (00:55:56):
but you're having these other recovery programs,

Colin Casey (00:55:58):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:55:59):
be that change.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:00):
I guess in terms of like the 12th step and squaring the 11th tradition.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:06):
So the other thing I want to say about the sobriety groups that you're talking,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:09):
or some of the sobriety groups,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:11):
AA is the only group that is free.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:15):
I guess there are some other free groups,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:16):
but some of those other groups that are out there,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:19):
they are for profit.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:20):
And that is a big deal.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:22):
So that was another big deal to me in terms of what makes AA accessible is that

Kristen Crocker (00:56:27):
you don't have to contribute anything or whatever, you know, it's self-sustaining.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:31):
And so,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:32):
so that,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:32):
that really is a big,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:34):
a big difference to me,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:35):
as opposed to like,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:36):
kind of like you're saying,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:37):
like the programs that have taken the basis of AA and then again,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:41):
made it like a for-profit organization.

Rachel Casey (00:56:44):
deal like laura mccowan's the luckiest club 26 a month is that's a but i did spend

Rachel Casey (00:56:49):
more than a dollar a day drinking so that's kind of how you rationalize it right

Kristen Crocker (00:56:53):
right right right yeah but so actually that is one of the reasons that i actually

Kristen Crocker (00:56:56):
like that was that book was a huge um he's a huge a huge influence in my early

Kristen Crocker (00:57:01):
sobriety but but yeah i kind of like

Kristen Crocker (00:57:04):
the the amount similar to aa that her that the group is um and then the cost of it

Kristen Crocker (00:57:11):
but i like have a little bit of a hard time and hundreds of thousands of members

Rachel Casey (00:57:15):
and i'm like and yeah like holy they raised the price it was 13 a month and now

Kristen Crocker (00:57:21):
i've seen that over time that's so funny that is so funny that you say that because

Kristen Crocker (00:57:25):
when i joined it it was 14 a month exactly

Rachel Casey (00:57:29):
um and and yeah now it's now more people are joining and the price is going up well

Rachel Casey (00:57:33):
wouldn't you think that it's like it should go down yeah to be more inclusive and

Kristen Crocker (00:57:38):
yeah and you know what it's actually funny there is the other thing that that kind

Kristen Crocker (00:57:42):
of started to gross me out a little bit about that group was the level of hero

Kristen Crocker (00:57:46):
worship towards her and all the other hosts and it's actually on that note

Kristen Crocker (00:57:53):
So one of the things that I thought was really,

Kristen Crocker (00:57:55):
so what I've learned from AA meetings,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:00):
the no crosstalk rule.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:02):
So I feel like I have learned how to speak more from myself.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:05):
So kind of like back to that 12th step, 11th tradition.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:09):
I'm just sharing my story.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:10):
I'm just sharing what worked for me.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:12):
I'm not telling you what, I'm not shitting you.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:14):
I'm not telling you anything about yourself.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:19):
I'm talking about what happened to me.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:21):
you know, how what worked for me, and what I'm doing.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:26):
And so I think that that was the other thing that that happened within that group

Kristen Crocker (00:58:29):
is that in other groups,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:31):
it's not even right.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:33):
I'm sorry.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:33):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:34):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:35):
Just that it was a little bit like everybody was waiting for the host to say,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:40):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:41):
to give them accolades or,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:43):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:43):
and so that,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:43):
that is one thing that I think is pretty,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:46):
pretty funny in AA meetings where somebody will say something like extremely

Kristen Crocker (00:58:51):
profound or extremely impactful,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:55):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:55):
and then the,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:56):
if the chair is like,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:58):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:58):
pretty,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:59):
uh,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:59):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:01):
a purist,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:01):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:02):
they're just kind of like next,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:04):
sorry to hear about your next.

Rachel Casey (00:59:10):
The sweet spot is in the world of creating in a new digital age,

Rachel Casey (00:59:17):
we're respecting the traditions and carrying the message by not

Rachel Casey (00:59:24):
being like not cross-talking, like making sure that we're speaking from the eye perspective.

Rachel Casey (00:59:30):
I don't know if we all need a disclaimer,

Rachel Casey (00:59:33):
but I think that that's a really good start is saying like,

Rachel Casey (00:59:36):
if you start going past the point of like what cross-talk would be,

Rachel Casey (00:59:41):
maybe that's when we start saying like,

Rachel Casey (00:59:42):
we don't want to have a...

Rachel Casey (00:59:45):
When someone even tells me they listen to the podcast, I get so cringe.

Rachel Casey (00:59:48):
Like, I'm like, oh, my God, please don't.

Rachel Casey (00:59:50):
Like, I'm just trying to talk about what my story is or talk.

Rachel Casey (00:59:52):
I hope they enjoyed the person we're interviewing.

Colin Casey (00:59:54):
What's about what worked for us?

Colin Casey (00:59:56):
And that's really.

Rachel Casey (00:59:57):
And just laughing about the stupid stuff like me testing my breast milk like a maniac.

Rachel Casey (01:00:03):
Like,

Rachel Casey (01:00:04):
and I can I don't talk about that unless I have someone where I'm like,

Rachel Casey (01:00:09):
they shared something pretty similar to something I've done.

Rachel Casey (01:00:11):
And

Rachel Casey (01:00:13):
There's going to be a mom that hears it, and she's going to be like, I'm not alone.

Rachel Casey (01:00:18):
And that's, like, the only goal of the podcast.

Rachel Casey (01:00:20):
That is the goal of someone hears something out of the 60 minutes of banter,

Rachel Casey (01:00:26):
and they say,

Rachel Casey (01:00:27):
I'm not alone,

Rachel Casey (01:00:28):
and maybe seeds planted.

Rachel Casey (01:00:29):
Maybe not.

Rachel Casey (01:00:30):
Exactly.

Rachel Casey (01:00:30):
I don't care.

Rachel Casey (01:00:32):
I'm not preaching.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:32):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:34):
And the other thing, I mean, having...

Kristen Crocker (01:00:36):
drank while breastfeeding two, well, three babies, you know, two, the twins and the baby.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:42):
And then having been sober this time, I mean, my self-esteem, so much better.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:48):
So I did not, the Kristen who was,

Kristen Crocker (01:00:52):
drinking a 15% stout to like boost her breast milk did not love herself the way

Kristen Crocker (01:00:58):
that I like,

Kristen Crocker (01:00:59):
that I do actually like the person who I am most of the time.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:03):
And that's a beautiful,

Rachel Casey (01:01:04):
and I know for time constraint,

Rachel Casey (01:01:06):
like,

Kristen Crocker (01:01:06):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (01:01:07):
it's like,

Rachel Casey (01:01:08):
we,

Rachel Casey (01:01:08):
we just learned that we like who we are without the alcohol.

Rachel Casey (01:01:12):
So it even becomes like life really isn't much about the alcohol,

Rachel Casey (01:01:15):
but we laugh at how much alcohol ran our lives and,

Rachel Casey (01:01:20):
before we like realize the hack of not drinking it yeah so and if you relate to

Rachel Casey (01:01:25):
that awesome if you don't that's there's there's probably another podcast that's

Rachel Casey (01:01:29):
more relatable for you or another news right exactly exactly and so and so that's

Kristen Crocker (01:01:33):
what i just think you know like aa was a huge component of what got me sober and so

Kristen Crocker (01:01:38):
i just want like and the concept of like that whole normalizing alcoholism and um

Kristen Crocker (01:01:45):
all that kind of stuff

Rachel Casey (01:01:46):
So right now is Substack your main point of contact or do you have a website?

Rachel Casey (01:01:52):
I see you have a road mic.

Rachel Casey (01:01:53):
Like, I mean, you have, you have the same mic as us.

Rachel Casey (01:01:55):
So are you about to start a podcast maybe?

Kristen Crocker (01:01:57):
So my husband has a podcast.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:58):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:59):
So yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:59):
So he has, um, he has like kind of all the, that's why he was here to my tech support.

Rachel Casey (01:02:04):
yeah well this was i was like you should maybe you could think about it i don't

Kristen Crocker (01:02:09):
know i know so i do i do want to start a podcast so yeah so so currently i have um

Kristen Crocker (01:02:13):
my Substack i'm again so you know my formal education my back my formal background

Kristen Crocker (01:02:18):
is is in creative writing so that i am working on a memoir so i have i'm kind of

Kristen Crocker (01:02:23):
it's shifting between a lot so much of it has to do with with motherhood and with

Kristen Crocker (01:02:27):
parenting and um

Kristen Crocker (01:02:29):
Again, I'm kind of back and forth on that.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:32):
How much do I want to normalize alcoholism?

Kristen Crocker (01:02:34):
Do I like the word alcoholism?

Kristen Crocker (01:02:35):
But anyway, just just kind of like that.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:38):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:39):
I relate to that.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:40):
Yeah, I relate to it.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:41):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:42):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:42):
So so, you know, just kind of.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:43):
And so that is my goal is to help help other people.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:47):
I mean, people, but specifically moms who are just like, oh, that can't be me.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:51):
Cause like I have a husband and I have a house and there's like, sure.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:55):
I drink a bottle of wine every day, but who wouldn't, you know?

Kristen Crocker (01:02:57):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:58):
Well, okay.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:58):
You're, you're only mortal.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:59):
Okay.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:00):
So like your body's going to shut down.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:01):
No.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:03):
And, and again, the way that showing up for my kids is,

Kristen Crocker (01:03:07):
completely is the most beautiful thing that I've ever done for myself.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:11):
It is the greatest gift I've ever given myself in the world,

Kristen Crocker (01:03:14):
even when I'm reading them a bedtime story and I'm just like not wanting to finish

Kristen Crocker (01:03:19):
the story.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:21):
At least I know that it's because it's because I'm sick of them and not because I'm

Kristen Crocker (01:03:25):
trying to go downstairs and get a glass of wine.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:27):
hundred percent when i used to be when i used to read a bedtime story um and i

Kristen Crocker (01:03:32):
would be you know trying to sneak away to drink more and i'd be skipping pages i'm

Kristen Crocker (01:03:36):
like do they notice do they notice

Kristen Crocker (01:03:40):
Now when I skip pages, it's because I just don't, I'm just done for the day.

Rachel Casey (01:03:44):
There's a new, or there's a new episode out.

Rachel Casey (01:03:46):
Like I gotta go.

Rachel Casey (01:03:47):
Come on guys.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:49):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:50):
So the substack.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:51):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:51):
So my, my husband, so he has a podcast called, we're not supposed to talk about this.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:55):
And so he, it's about.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:57):
About things we're not supposed to talk about.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:58):
Um,

Kristen Crocker (01:03:59):
Politics, religion, sex, money, you know, all those kinds of things.

Rachel Casey (01:04:01):
I was like, the things on my dad said, do not talk about sex, religion, money at a bar.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:05):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:07):
And so he and I are moving towards hosting that together as well.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:11):
But I probably do want to do a podcast at some point as well.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:16):
But yeah, Substack is the main place to find me right now.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:18):
I have a Facebook group, but it's not very big right now.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:23):
So I mostly just share my Substack.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:24):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:04:27):
But it's been a pleasure to talk with you.

Colin Casey (01:04:29):
And thank you.

Rachel Casey (01:04:30):
Thank you so much.

Rachel Casey (01:04:32):
I really appreciate it.

Colin Casey (01:04:33):
And hanging in with us, too.

Rachel Casey (01:04:35):
I appreciate it.

Rachel Casey (01:04:36):
Talk back.

Rachel Casey (01:04:37):
And we'll talk about all the things we're not supposed to talk about.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:41):
Well, that would be awesome.

Rachel Casey (01:04:43):
So thank you again.

Rachel Casey (01:04:45):
Thank you so much.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:46):
I really, really enjoyed this.

Rachel Casey (01:04:47):
Thank you for listening to Sober Banter.