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In RONderings, Ron talks to his guests about their superpowers, including career advice, diversity, mindset, wellness, and leadership. Ron grew up in New York City, and has been coaching and leading executive searches for the last five years, taking what he has learned from 15 years in corporate, higher education, government, and non-profit contexts. He and his wife are obsessed with reality television, and Ron also moonlights as a men's personal stylist and group fitness instructor. Ron says, "I believe in the power of intuition and deepening one’s self-awareness and impact on others. I believe in the power of connection and transparency. I believe that we must dismantle systems of oppression and racism to recover our fullest humanity. Most of all, I believe our power to change the world starts from changing ourselves first."
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Welcome back to Ronderings. You know, I've always been fascinated by leaders who rise through a system and then return to lead it. There's something powerful about that full circle journey because the work becomes personal. Today's guest is my homeboy, Doctor.
Ron Rapatalo:Patrick Fagan, the chief talent and human resources officer for the New York City Department of Education, the largest school system in The United States. He oversees HR and talent for more than 150,000 employees supported by the 500 person division. But Patrick's story isn't just about scale. Born in London to Jamaican parents who immigrated to America in the late seventies, Patrick grew up in New York City and attended public schools from kindergarten through high school. From performing arts in junior high school eighty five, to studying electronics at William E.
Ron Rapatalo:Grady Vocational Technical High School, the path wasn't a straight line into education leadership. In this conversation, we talk about teamship versus leadership, building talent pipelines in the face of a national teacher shortage, how faith in wellness shape is approached to leadership, why believes every day is an interview. If you ever wondered what it takes to lead people inside a $44,000,000,000 public system or how to stay grounded while doing it, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it. Hey.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm putting together a book with about 10 to 12 people who are tired of how leadership gets talked about, lived out right now, actually wanna say something real about it. It's called leadership in a time of chaos. I'm not trying to make money off it, just covering costs. If you got a perspective, a story, or something you feel needs to be said, hit me up. Love to have you be one of the voices in it.
Ron Rapatalo:Ronderings fam, as a product of New York City public schools, this is a real treat to come in a lot of ways as I've done this podcast full circle many times. This is coming full circle because one of my buddies, Dr. Patrick Fagan, who I met doing fantasy football years and years ago, now come back full circle, and he now leads the largest public school district in the nation in New York City, which I'm a product of as the chief human resources officer. So I'm really proud to chop it up with Dr. Patrick Fagan. Patrick, how are doing this morning?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yo, so good to hear from you, Ron. And it's not over the wave Oh of
Ron Rapatalo:my God.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Decades ago. I'm well, my friend.
Ron Rapatalo:How are Just, you know, at the moment of this recording, my wife is traveling for work, so, you know, drop off and pick up and taking care of the kids so she gets back on Saturday. So I'm already tired.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Oh, and blessed to see your beautiful family. You know? Yeah. I know
Ron Rapatalo:we talked a little bit about, like, taking care of ourselves and, like, hitting the weight to the gym, so we'll make sure we talk a little bit about that because I know how important it is for leaders to be taking care of their overall wellness. But before I chop it up with you on that, I'm gonna get right into it with you, Patrick. You ready?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Okay. Let's go. I'm ready.
Ron Rapatalo:What is
Dr. Patrick Fagan:your story? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:My story. Let's see how much time you have. He's got a minute. He's a minute. Oh, how many gigabyte?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Alright. Okay. So I'll I'll okay. My story. It's one of faith, resilience
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Perseverance, service, leadership. It's the journey of someone who just rose from humble beginnings, stayed grounded in purpose, and now I lead at the highest levels while still Yeah. Still never forgetting where I came from. You know? I was born in London.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I migrated here. You know, my parents are Caribbean, Jamaican. Migrated here in the late seventies, early eighties, and I call New York my home ever since then. You know, growing up around church culture taught me the lessons about service, brotherhood, discipline, and purpose. You know, those real early experiences shaped my worldview and my commitment to helping others rise.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And ironically, that's how I rose through the ranks is how I envision helping other individuals raised through the same ranks, you know? And since my journey, my diaspora from my parents, we came here, my mom definitely for myself and my sister, my oldest sibling who also a doctor, you know, she saw a better life for us. And even going back visiting London systematically and even Jamaica, I can say it was one of the best things my mother decided to do for us because I look at myself and juxtapose it to my peers of the same age and cousins. And let's just say I am I find myself now in a privileged situation. And to that, I you know, I'm a proud product of this city and a proud product of New York City Public Schools itself.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And I now get to serve the same system that created me. And one thing that we're doing that I'm gonna put out there is this marketing campaign called PS Proud. So I'm a graduate of public schools from k to 12, and I'm proud of it. And now I get to lead the nation's largest public school systems, HR function to help bring in Yeah. You know, staff, teachers that's well needed
Ron Rapatalo:in our if I didn't ask you. This is how we build New York City credibility, Patrick. What schools did you go to in the system?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yeah. Oh, certainly. Yeah. I grew up here. So East Brackish, everyone knows that's interesting about New York City, you know, so big Caribbean population, so big up to District 18 and Celeste Douglas, who's right now Celeste Terry.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Pardon me. She's a married name. She's the superintendent of district eighteen. So I went to PS two zero eight, now known as Alpha Eblin School, and that's on Avenue D in, like, 48 And 49th Street. And then after that, I had the greatest privilege of going to my 11.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I was zoned for PSJHS two eighty five, which is a performing arts school. And that shaped me as well. So, like, I learned to play the trumpet, which people don't know. I like I did not know. Okay.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You know? So what happened was where was the place I went went to twenty five, the trumpet, played the drums, and also that was interesting. So I had this artistic piece of me that was able to be fueled, which I carried out even after leaving junior high school to '85. And then I actually went to and this is the part that really sends people crazy. I actually went to, well, they're called CTE schools now, but William E.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Grady Vocational Technical High School because we knew no better. As a fact, no one challenged like, why am I going to Grady? And I went to Grady because my cousins and my friends went there. And it was about where did your friends go? So it wasn't even about the academics.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:No. No. About it was more like, hey, you're going on to Grady, and that was it, you know, to learn either trade. And for me, it was about technical electronics. But lo and behold, I went there, loved and learned a lot, but that wasn't my path.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And then after that, when I graduated, I went on to Hofstra where that changed my entire trajectory where I was like, okay, I'm not doing anything with my hands. I mean, although it helps me out now with being a homeowner and just being somebody And I car owner, like, learned skills and trades so I can work with my hands. But I saw my I didn't ever see myself going through that path. And then after that, you know, just one thing led to the other, but paying homage to once again the strong foundation from the teachers that cared for me, the guidance counselors that cared for me, and that provided me such a great foundation. I owe that all to that K through 12 system, which I firmly believe in, I put my own children through.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, tell me more about your experience in the system, particularly what you got from you talked about, you know, playing the instruments in middle school and your vocational experience. Right? Talk to us like what the impact that those two schools had on your kind of journey in life and your career journey.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yep. So the I'll I'll start with the instrument. The instrument, playing an instrument, learning to read music, I was able to carry that over into my personal life and into my faith life. Like, so I was able to play music in the church, which I gravitate to. I I don't have a voice, so I'm not the singer.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I could tunes. I know tunes, and I know notes. Okay. But for me, my call in, like I'd like to call it, was to actually play an instrument. And that was my thing, and that was how I you know, it was an expression of myself which wasn't just about books.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:That's where I truly believe, you know, students and I give my own children, they need to find ways to express themselves where they can be good at something. And for me, it was, you know, playing music. That was just one thing. The second thing, like, which you bring up is the way it shaped me with vocate with going to a vocational technical high school was I learned how to solve real life or real world issues. What's that?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I knew how to change a socket on you know, in my room, the bulb. So how has that helped me? I, being a homeowner and being, you know, I can do things on my own, which would require a costly serviceman or general contractor, and I feel confident in doing some work. Now, I knocking down buildings, building up? No, I'm not doing that.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:But like those simple things where it's like, oh, I gotta change a light bulb, or I need to change a socket, or I gotta run some wires. I know how to use those. And that has definitely helped me out in my personal life. And even just thinking about when you work with such a myriad of different personalities and different skill sets and levels, it taught me, especially in HR, how to deal with different people. Like, we always talk about differentiation on the instructional side, but in HR, and especially being in the leadership role, you need to know how to differentiate.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You cannot do across the board management. It doesn't work. You need to understand who your audience is and who your subordinates are, and they all have different and they come to work with different motivational aspirations, and you need to be able to tap into that. And so being in growing up with such a myriad and mix of experiences makes me respect the fact that other people come here too with mix of experiences and different things that ignite them. And that is not just a, okay, do this because of your title.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Like to get to know people. I like to get to understand what makes them drive, what makes them tick. And that's why, you know, that led me to my IO background and PhD. It's like, I'm a behavioral scientist of the workplace behavior. Yeah.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:So that's how in one simple way. And it's definitely affected me in many ways also, but that's just one that I can just share with
Ron Rapatalo:can you right find your way, Patrick, because I'm always curious about this. Most of us who end up in HR and talent, it's not as if we ever decided when we went to college or even, like, in the workforce, it sort of finds you. So how did you find getting into this work?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:It's interesting. Because when I when I came to the DOE, New York City Public Schools, that was in 2004. Oh. I came after, yeah, finishing my MBA. And so I was brought that was under the Bloomberg administration.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:So I was brought in when he believed the administration believed that you look at the organization, not just as an educational institution, but they understood that there was a component of management that was Like, you look at DOE now, it's $44,000,000,000 organization, give or take a billion. That's equivalent to like what You a Fortune 50 know? So so it takes some business acumen and certain competencies to understand, like, and I'm not taking anything away from, you know, pedagogical side, but to understand what budget and funding, you know, initiatives mean, and how, you know, paying people on time, procurement, what levels. So how did I get into it? I've always been in the position fortunate enough to actually lead individuals.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:So I found myself being the leader of a team, small team, two members, three member teams. And then after that, I was always in a leadership role. So I always had subordinates. And it's not until in one reorg, I officially took on an HR capacity because I was asked to by the administration, which was, you know, can you oversee HR for a cluster of school? This is when they had the network structure.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Mhmm. And so when I was at the cluster, we had networks underneath the cluster. And so that was when I would formally start to learn about HR. And actually, I tell people this, to be in HR, you got to love people. Not like them, but love people.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You don't have to get along with them, but once again, you got to love people. And that's something. I'm a people person. I love people. And you learn about, like I said, the ups and downs and how to make things better.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And so while I was doing that and kept getting promote in and when different iterations of the organization kept shifting, I was just fascinated with change management, how people were treated in transitions. And just knew that there was a science behind that. And that's what drove me back to IO, industrial organizational psychology, which, you know, I said, let me take some classes, let me learn the lingo, let me learn, you know, the underlying meanings to what does like people say, motivation. What does motivation really consist of? What's the true framework?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Can we, you know, what go back to is there some taxonomy that we can draw to? Like, we always hear about Maslov's hierarchy of needs. How applicable is that to the workplace? Very applicable. And so studying those things, getting them to understand individuals, I said, oh, wow.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:This is so fascinating. So that's how I kind of formally ended up in HR role. But it was just like I said, timing as far as they always said, opportunity favors those who are prepared. Yeah. It was an opportunity where leadership once again was shift in.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I was actually formally learning HR through my IO doctoral program, and I was able to once again Yeah. Apply, go through a process. And thanks be to God, I was selected. Yeah. Here I am.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I am now the chief talent human resources officer for
Ron Rapatalo:New York City. Don't understand the scale of the New York City Department of Education. You gave a snippet of it. $44,000,000,000 budget, give or take a billion, which sound like so largest public school district in America. About the, probably the Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Talk about the scale, the team that you like directly lead, right? Because I think, I have some follow-up questions about that because your role in the world of, like, public schools is unique because when you're overseeing talent HR for, what's it, seventeen, eighteen hundred schools, one plus million students, it's just the scale is so drastically different. So I have some, like, leadership questions I wanna ask you, but, like, give the context of, like, the size of what you're leading in your team.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yeah. Sure. Well, we have right now about a 150,000 employees total. My team consists of 500, approximately 500 employees in my division of human resources, And I have 10 executive directors and woken up. I have a deputy chief of staff that helps me on the management end.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yes. Who you also know,
Ron Rapatalo:which is how we make
Dr. Patrick Fagan:sure we walk through this podcast with. And so it's all done. And I'm no magician. But one thing I can say, it's all done with seasoned professionals who actually know their role and know their work. So while I may be the one on the top, I have an amazing team that does what they're supposed to be doing and who also adds to the fire that has helped me in this role.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:So in that for that magnitude, leading an organization of this, it's that's why it's important for leaders in my role to understand those who report directly to me to ensure that they have the tools, the competencies, or whatever is necessary to get their job done. Because when that doesn't happen, we start to see the breakdown. And then that's what's felt throughout what you said, the 1,700, 1,800 schools. When, you know, someone's not getting paid, whether it's their benefits aren't. You know, how can we expect the teacher or principal who anyone go to work if they have a child at home or a spouse or a family member who's trying to get their medication or they go to a doctor and they're saying, oh my god.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You know, that's what I wanna make sure that doesn't happen so that they can focus on their lives, their work, those things that we don't think about, you know, because it's only when something goes wrong, it's like, oh my god. It's h o. How come they don't have my spouse's name on file? Why is not you know, that's just and like I said, that's just one minuscule example, and that's how I view it. I view it through a lens of empathy.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:What if I was that individual? And I I view it from a a a of, you know, like, let those in the schools, especially the pedagogues, focus on pedagogy and the kids. And so we can do all those Yeah. Support functions in HR to make sure that everything else runs smoothly.
Ron Rapatalo:Quick thing. There's a referral only mastermind happening through speakers that matter, and I get to send a few impact driven people their way. I'm being pretty intentional, though. I'm not just sending anybody. This isn't one of those webinar situations where you leave with a few notes and move on.
Ron Rapatalo:It's for people serious about getting clear on their message and actually putting it out into the world. That sounds like you, hit me up or check out speakersthatmatter.com. Tell them I sent you. So it's such a different level of leadership when you're leading an enterprise this large. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:You have a chief of staff, 10 EDs. Sounds like that's the the folks you spend the most amount of time with because, obviously, you can't have check ins with 500 people because that would be know, at any time. No. And you know, it makes me think, I remember reading this one book, I'm sure you read it, The Leadership Pipeline, right? And it talks about the stages of leadership, and you're pretty high up the triangle where the way that you directly lead someone who themselves, if you just think of your 10 EDs, are leading major departments that have people under them.
Ron Rapatalo:So I wanna elevate on this podcast, talk to us in your role, how you have to, like, lead and support 10 EDs who, in some level, if I give it in terms of size, are basically running their own organizations just in terms of size. Right?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Correct. Correct. So you're right. And that's why leaders, especially in my role, it's important to have vision, and you need to give them tools. But I lead the the way it works Yeah.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:For me is I don't tell them the steps they need to take to get to the outcome. These are all seasoned individuals. But what I do is provide them. For instance, when I first took over three years ago, I was so in brought up in this term team ship. I learned about this
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Team ship because in enterprises this large, you realize we're so and even historically, HR is so consumed with titles. Like, it's about getting to the c suite or getting, you know, I wanna be senior this or I wanna be an ED of that or I wanna be a chief of that. But what I try to do is because, you know, we can't give out ties. If not, we can't even give out raises. So I wanted to I read this book by Keith Ferrazzi, you know, the shifts from leadership to teamship, and it resonated with me.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yeah. Why did it resonate? Because it's about co elevating everyone. And the way if we think about how work is done in our environment nowadays, it's done more in teams. So let me go back to your original question when I first told you, asked me, how did I get into HR?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I got into HR by being successful at leading small teams. Yeah. Because the work at this level is accomplished still in small teams. Although we're large at skill, you need to have core teams that are able to carry out that work. And so why am I juxtaposing back then to now?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Because of this term teamship. If we look at a regular wheel and you have the hub and then you have spokes. If I'm the hub and you think of all the spokes, like you said, 500 people or whatever. If all and let's I'll simplify it. Let's have 10 spokes, which represents my 10 EDs.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:If they all have to come to me for decision, that gets backlogged in a day and age where time and speed is necessary. We're living in VUCA, where there's volatility, uncertainty, chaos and ambiguity. For me to get a meeting on my calendar to decide something that No, they should be no, it's happening. It's it's not happening. And then who suffers?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Once again, I have to think about the system. Something that they could have happened that they could have made a decision on, more than likely 95%, I'm gonna go with the decision because they're the SME. They're the subject matter expert, and I'm relying on their advice for
Ron Rapatalo:me to
Dr. Patrick Fagan:make a final decision. I had to get them more in, and that was the work. Getting them more at a level of comfort so that they can make a decision and understanding that, listen, you make this decision and we're gonna live with it. Would not doing as long as there's nothing that's unethical, that's gonna break the laws, that's gonna get us in the paper
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Steal the funds, You know? Let's make that decision until we can and we can make adjustments. And that's how you deal with systems like this because pilot things and scalability and you try to capture it before it gets out of control. But I only use that reference. That's how I'm able to manage and lead at this level is understanding that the individuals that I have, the spoke that I have, understand that same concept that they also, and I model for them to trust in their individuals.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And therefore that that's why it the cadence of meeting weekly or it can't happen. Yes. I have my senior leadership team meeting every other week where I bring them together just to make sure that they're okay and that their well-being is okay. And if they are and yes, I do have my one on one every other week. So it's manageable.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You figure five this week, five next week on a regular cadence so that they can bring anything to me. And there's ways so so those are standing meetings. But other than that, it's really motivating them, giving them the tools, and checking in with
Ron Rapatalo:them.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yeah. You know? And so far, they have not let
Ron Rapatalo:You know, this your your leadership and management style reminds me of what I'm hearing how I'm hoping John Harbaugh is gonna lead my New York John man, I gotta talk gotta hold for hike. Come on, Matthew. It's been a struggle being a jumping inspect teams that understand why? But there's so much, like, he's not the subject management expert. He's gotta rely as the head coach of a football team to have folks that can run things, and he's the visionary.
Ron Rapatalo:He's the person who can put the like, make sure that the team ship's happening because if he's gotta make every decision, you're not gonna get good fast at all.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:It's not correct. Exactly. So and that's a prime example. So thank you. Yeah.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And the other thing I would add to that is also on since we're on the the football analogy, that's it. I'm trying to win a championship here. And that's what and if you get your assistant coaches, your team all on board, great things happen. And I've seen that since I've been here in three years. Like, we've like, we were doing some archaic things in the twenties twenties.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Like, we're still using paper time sheets. I was like, what are we doing paper time Well, sheets in 2022, we're doing paper time sheets. Yeah. Like and so those are some of the things, but also so team shit was the first thing. And then now what we're on is clarity and being clear because being unclear is unkind, as you know, Brown would say.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:So for me, it's about clarity and giving them the opportunity and the psychological safety for them to be clear Because a lot of the leaders take silence as an acceptance. But I look at silence more as, okay, I'm more concerned. When my EDs or when individuals talk to me or if I ask them of something or up and they're silent, that to me is the concern. And so I'm always looking out to hear and I want feedback. I want I want dialogue.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I actually wouldn't don't mind discourse because I also lead from a position of that I learned in school on strength based based Yes. Leadership. I I like to harbor to the football analogy. I know what my strengths are. You know?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I know what my five leadership strengths are, and I did this exercise with my team and learned that we all don't have the five same strengths. I'll call it. And I have tried to make sure that I build a team around my blind spots and my strengths because we don't know what we don't know. And so but I'm able to accept and know that if someone else is stronger in that, my ego Yes. Check that at the door.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yeah. You know? And so those are some of the little tricks that I or actually, I wouldn't even call them tricks. Those are some leadership practices that I actually put in place to lead a Yeah. Organization.
Ron Rapatalo:You know, your your conversation about getting into the depth of how organizations are led and the psychology of it makes me think that anybody who's gonna get to your level, right, maybe not scale, but your level, right, how necessary it is to understand the organizational psychology, not just the individual psychology, but, like, understanding organizations within that research. There's such really good, rich literature and, like, frameworks that it sounds like, Patrick, you know, you having a doctor in that and putting into practice that without that, you wouldn't be able to lead at the level that you absolutely have to lead at to be able to succeed at the scale that you're
Dr. Patrick Fagan:at, right? -I think thanks for that, Ron. And, you know, I I thank you for actually noticing that and calling that out. Because what I've noticed in my and I could say that from my own lived experience on being in government since I've come out of school, and that's since '95. So I've worked my career in the government and the non for profit sector.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And something that I've seen in government more often than not, and I'm just going say loosely, I'm not calling out, is that people usually get promoted for their functional expertise. You know, it's like, oh, this guy knows or this individual knows how to do a great spreadsheet. So they get recognized. And so what happens? They get promoted, you know, and then now they turn around and realize they're in a role where they're leading people.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:They're not leading spreadsheets.
Ron Rapatalo:Difference. Spreadsheets can You know, spreadsheets can
Dr. Patrick Fagan:be be untied. Untied.
Ron Rapatalo:It can't be when those formulas go awry. But yeah. No. That's true.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Right. The pivot tables don't make sense. But no. Why do I call that out? No.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I say it does help. And that's something, you know, we're proud of when we've put together because I I saw that. That's a blind spot. You know, a lot of people get into these roles, then they stay in these roles, and they think it's more about the work and the output, and they forget about the people. Another part of my vision and goal take coming into this role was to bring the human back into human resources to understand that there's people doing this work.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And I know I'm gonna jump ahead, but this is even when people broach me with AI. Like, I get it. AI is great for taking away the mundane ass and all that, you know, stuff. Like, sure. But what AI will never do, as far as I'm concerned, is replace that social interaction, which is needed, by the way, in an office, I firmly believe.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And, you know, and so I've tried to shift the culture where we know that people matter, presence matter. And back to what I was saying where people got get promoted more for their spreadsheet. There's some research out there, and this word is called pie. And I was trying to part this upon some of my college student interns. I said, you know, if you look at a pie and it stands for is this is an acoustic, not a it's for performance, image, and exposure.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:The least percentage of why people get promoted in their roles or in their career is for performance. The next percentage, which is probably, like, 40% is their image. So I say, you know, stay out of the papers. Don't do nothing negative. But the majority and reason or rationale individuals get promoted is because of the exposure that they have.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:So my role too in part of not being involved in all of them is given my team members, and I try to model that for them so that they can do it for their teams, is giving them exposure to the world. So whether it's their subordinates giving them exposure to me, for them, I'm giving them exposure to Tweed, City Hall. Big Comp. Don't always have to be the one representing DHR, you know, because that's what actually lets individuals grow. It's not giving me a great A paper or a spreadsheet.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:It's me putting you out there, you maintain your image, and that's how, you know, so those are just some of the
Ron Rapatalo:And I imagine, like, with that kind of, you know, that acronym and that, like, framework that when you give people the opportunity to do not only a great job, but the opportunity to talk about it and have that exposure, right, it reminds me very similarly, going back to the football analogy, right? You see all the football coaching trees, right? You go all the way back in the day, the Bill Walsh coaching tree, the Bill Parcells coaching tree, which includes a Belichick. Right? And these days, right, it's the Andy Reid coaching tree.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Because they're giving their folks the opportunity to lead and get exposure, which is why when it comes time for, like, head coach season, folks from those the established coaching crews are often getting poached because they have a certain philosophy of success, and they've been given the ability Mhmm. To succeed before they even get in the seat.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Right. And that and to your point and that's the ultimate job. What you just said is the ultimate job of every leader is to create more leaders. My job, if I and people are, oh, you you want to keep this one, we can't let this one go. I said, no, we got to let they got to grow, they got to fly, you know, because that's that's when depression and, you know, when fight sets into an individual, when they feel boxed in and you're giving them mundane tasks or they just and you don't realize how what that's when you start to have negative work be workplace behavior.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You know? And so you gotta let give people the runway to space to grow. And, of course, there's gonna be some that just never you know? But then there's those that's gonna surprise you, and you're just gonna see them fly like Yeah. Soar like eagles.
Ron Rapatalo:Alright. Check this out. Quick aside. If you're sitting on an idea, a message, or something you know matters that you haven't quite figured out how to get it out into the world, there's someone I'm gonna hook you up with, Dr. Kent. He's one of those people who really thinks with people, not just advice from the sidelines.
Ron Rapatalo:It's kind of his thing. Think about having a Clive Davis in your life. Check him out at talktokent.com. I I'm glad that you are talking about this, right, because I find those things are easier said than done. I'm gonna kind of take two things that we've talked about and bring them to the forefront again, right, is Sure.
Ron Rapatalo:You know? My experience at leadership is that we say theoretically we want people to be grown and developed, but sometimes the job is so busy that unless not only you create the systems to incentivize it, but I think more importantly, you're modeling yourself. And I wanna bring two things you've brought up in our conversation. One, your faith and how important that is to you. And two, your wellness.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I would argue those are foundational things. You can talk the talk. Like, I wanna grow and develop my leaders up to the fly. But if you don't have some level of like mindset of leadership, your faith is a big part of that, imagine, taking Very care of big.
Ron Rapatalo:It's easy to fall in what I would say is like selfish behavior. I gotta survive, You're not going anywhere because if you go and I gotta do your work, we gotta No, I'm gonna. You're gonna find ways consciously or unconsciously to kind of keep people where they are. I think it's a really easy default behavior to do, even if it's not like intentional. So talk to me how your faith and your wellness allow you to like lead in that way and put your money where your mouth is at the end of the day.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Thanks for that question, Ron. So when I talk about my faith and how does it really affect how I lead, because I have such a strong faith, I also have a faith, believe it or not, in people. I believe I true. Like I said, remember, if I go back, I like to I don't like to have one off. I like to make sure that everything ties in.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Remember I said, if you're getting into this job, you have to love people, not like people. And part of me loving people in general is because of my faith, and I truly believe that we are inherently here to do good. And I definitely believe there's a position and a path forward for everyone. So that's how I put my money where my mouth is and to authenticity. So the faith that I have is not just faith in the scriptures or, you know, the church space.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:It's also that same faith that I carry through into Yeah. People and people's world. I hold people at their word. I hold them accountable the same the same way as I do with my faith. Now with well-being and to your point, my mentor, when I first got this job, this role three years ago, it was interesting.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. Well, I mean, this is your
Dr. Patrick Fagan:title. I'm the top dog. I'm the I'm the Jim Harbaugh. Now I just gotta bring up the championship. But no.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:On a serious note, I went out with some friends, two good friends, and they became my Debbie Downers. And what do I mean? I said, yo, I got to they were like, why would you want a 140 something thousand problems? And then I stopped and said, you know what? I never thought of it like that.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:But then I was like, no, I get to be like, think about it. Like when people say, oh, this job is so no, I get to speak from this vantage point. And only a few predecessors that sat in the seat So can do the same I look at it more as a privilege and an honor, not a burden. And so that's how I attack that. But my well-being, and that's what I'm saying, when I got into this role, my mentor told me, he said, Listen, your health is the most important thing.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Now knock on wood, Ron, let me tell you. You know, we're both into the fitness knock, I have not gotten sick since I've gotten this job. Why? Because I maintain my health. How do I do that?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You're right. I'm in the gym for three to four times a week, 05:30 in the morning because that's the time I go. Now, people's like, oh, how can discipline. You need to understand. And that's the one thing that ties in with faith with working out.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:You never it's about planting seeds. Yes. You there's a season to plant, and there's a season to harvest. And you got to just stay diligent, like a seed doesn't bear another seed, a seed, bear fruit. Right.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And for me, you got to and haven't seen that even with the clothes on my waist size and that doesn't happen overnight. And sometimes you don't even feel it. They're looking in the mirror every day. But it's when someone comes up to you with like, oh, wow. You're looking good.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Oh, yeah. Yeah. That, you know, you know what I'm saying? Well, I I couldn't tell. So how does that play into how I lead and to work?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:The same thing. The same discipline it takes me to stay in shape, stay healthy, stay on top of my game, have a mind. You know, those are the same qualities that I model with around the work. Like, people you you and I also tell individuals this too. Like, every day is an interview.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Don't just wait for that opportunity and then say, oh, you're going to apply and then put on a night. No, you are who you technically are, you know, every day. But what I try to do is in modeling and definitely keep my word discipline. And that's where my faith and my well-being being and how I take care of myself eyes into. Just like like, right, the coaches now, if you especially with the different generations we have in the workplace, you want for me, I wanna be proud of my leader.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I wanna be able to be like, yo, that's my guy. That's my girl. That's my Yeah. Who you you know? And I can't for me personally, I'm not showing up floppy.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Image matters when
Ron Rapatalo:you get the PIE acronym. I mean, folks, like at the end of it all, I think what I've learned being a senior leader is that your very presence, the way you talk, what you're not saying, the way you look is being constantly examined. That's the hardest part. I that's one of the hardest unseen, unknown things about how you're going to deal with leadership is that when you the fact when you walk into a room changes the temperature of the room. No matter if it's you just being, but I'm Patrick.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm a nice guy. No. You're the boss boss. Yeah. And when people know them, how you're then showing up in every interaction and what you it just it it matters a lot more than we wanna admit.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, you're not Patrick the homie. You're not Patrick the fantasy foot. Like, you're Patrick the cheap towel human resources officer. You are, in in in essence to a lot of people in the system, your title, the end of it all.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Yeah. It's Yeah. And and and right. But for those who have seen my trajectory, I am them. Yeah.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:I understand. And so that that is so it's like, oh, if he could do it. Yeah. I because it's about also and part of my studying is about self efficacy, which what does it mean? You have to see yourself in that role in order to think that you can attain it.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And that's why representation that they talk about is so important in anything we do. And in an educational organization, we pretty much talk about the classroom, but we have, like, 80,000, like I said, half the department, if not more, is on the pedagogical side. But what people don't know is and that's what I didn't even know is that roles like this existed. Yes. So part of my job is getting like, yes, there is also a career path within New York City public schools that you don't have to be in a classroom.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:We have over seventy, eighty thousand jobs available to non pedagogical employees, which are viable careers. And so that's where I'm just gonna throw in a little now where I'm proud of this internship program that I started here at DOE, which brings in college students for ten weeks over the summer and exposes them to all things HR. So it gives them a jump, and it's juniors and seniors in our CUNY schools that we work. That's awesome. Yeah.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Well, I'm
Ron Rapatalo:worried about that time that I think it's good for me to ask you the title of this podcast, the Ronderings question. So what lesson or value do you wanna share with the audience today, Patrick?
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Lesson of value. A boy shaped by faith, you know, and community. I grew into a scholar, you know, and leader responsible for shaping the people who educate nearly a And million I never forgot where I came from. So I'm a very, very authentic product of the very system I now help. And my mission is to leave it stronger for the next generation.
Ron Rapatalo:I love that.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And Ron, thanks for giving me this opportunity. And one plug I will like to make in my role is we need teachers. Teaching is a viable profession. Our EPP programs, and we all know that there's a national teacher shortage. And we have even the career changers.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:We have great programs like teaching fellows and Ed Prep. Our last two chancellors, our current chancellor and our previous chancellor, were both teaching fellows who career change, and you can make an impact. And there's ways and even for individuals who don't feel that their impact's in the classroom. Yeah. There's so many ways you can support our children of New York City.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:And there's so many opportunities. So, Ron, man, I I thank you for giving me this platform and allowing me to, you know, just share some great, you know, thoughts and reflection in real time because even, like, I'm a very emotional individual, and I feel like crying when I think about the fact here I am doing what it is I kinda dreamed of, podcast, at a top level leadership, and helping out the next generation. So
Ron Rapatalo:I applaud And you for what you're
Dr. Patrick Fagan:definitely, you know, keep up the great Thank work
Ron Rapatalo:you, Well, I have to say, in the words of one of my favorite heroes, the amazing Dionne Sanders, we always come in hot with guests like Dr. Patrick Fagan. Thank you. Peace y'all.
Dr. Patrick Fagan:Peace out.
Ron Rapatalo:What stayed with me from this conversation with Dr. Patrick Fagan is how grounded he is in both discipline and belief. Discipline
Dr. Patrick Fagan:in
Ron Rapatalo:the sense that leadership requires structure, with his 05:30AM gym routine, cadence of weekly leadership meetings, building systems that empower executive directors to make decisions. But belief might even be more important. Belief in people, belief in the power of representation, belief that students grew up in public schools could one day return to lead those very systems. Patrick talks about the idea that every day is an interview, not just for promotions or opportunities, but for trust. Your team is constantly watching how you show up, how you make decisions, and whether your actions match your values.
Ron Rapatalo:When you're leading HR for 150,000 employees, alignment matters. If you enjoyed this conversation, it with someone who believes in building strong teams and strong public institutions. Thanks for listening to Ronderings. I'm Ron Rapitallo. Peace.
Ron Rapatalo:By the way, podcast that matter helps make Ronderings happen. I'm crazy grateful for them. They're doing some really cool things beyond just this podcast. Go check them out, what they've got going on. And while you're there, check out my homie Mike Montoya's Stronger podcast too.
Ron Rapatalo:If you're into these conversations, that one should definitely be in your rotation. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, until next time, keep rondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.