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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00:00:13:22 - 00:00:14:22
Stacey
This is our best of the
episodes you love most.
Enjoy.
00:01:09:14 - 00:01:17:04
Stacey
Imagine thinking you've found the love of your life. A handsome cardiologist, kind, attentive, and deeply connected to your world.
00:01:17:06 - 00:01:23:15
Stacy/Dori
only to find out nearly a decade later he never existed. That's what happened to Kira.
00:01:23:15 - 00:01:32:23
Stacy/Dori
A c, a radio host from London who was drawn into one of the most elaborate and disturbing catfishing schemes ever uncovered in the UK.
00:01:33:00 - 00:01:35:02
Stacy/Dori
and it's all unraveled in the
00:01:35:04 - 00:01:36:09
Stacey/Dori
documentary
00:01:36:14 - 00:01:39:16
Stacy/Dori
Sweet Bobby on Netflix,
00:01:39:18 - 00:01:51:02
Stacy/Dori
I have the chills thinking about it. For nine years, this poor woman was seeking. You know, it's very important in the culture and in Indian culture, marriage and family and and all these.
00:01:51:02 - 00:02:12:04
Stacy/Dori
And her parents are lovely, and they just wanted her to be happy. And she was in a long term relationship before. And then this thing starts happening. This, this, this thing starts creeping in where she she sees Bobby at a bar. Because Bobby exists. She. Yes. This is Kheerat. This is Kira. So the story starts about. Yeah. So it's here at who
00:02:12:06 - 00:02:16:18
Stacy/Dori
is giving away the best years of her life
00:02:16:20 - 00:02:26:02
Stacy/Dori
because of this man who is a real person, who she has seen in a club.
00:02:26:04 - 00:02:55:05
Stacy/Dori
After they've been kind of talking back and forth for so forth for three months. So it all seems realistic, only to find out that for nine years she has been communicating with her cousin Simran, who creates 64 other profiles and people. I mean, this is a full time. I mean, think about this, Stacey, you run a thief.
00:02:55:05 - 00:03:17:18
Stacy/Dori
So we were just talking like we have a lot of stuff going on in our lives, right? Like, you know, all the time. You've got your business. I'm, I have to work. I've got a foster dog. We're just one fine time to sleep with the phone on all night long. To maybe text in the middle of the night.
00:03:17:22 - 00:03:24:12
Stacy/Dori
Something to your beloved that you really have never had a personal conversation with.
00:03:24:14 - 00:03:25:08
Stacy/Dori
Ever,
00:03:25:13 - 00:03:29:11
Stacy/Dori
the issue with Simran is like, what is her?
00:03:29:12 - 00:03:54:18
Stacy/Dori
What is she? She's got to be sociopathic and borderline. Yeah. What is she? Get out of it. Like he's even psychopathic. A rush, a rush of it's. I think it's similar to when people are making a phony phone call or, you know, steal something. It's like a rush of adrenaline of this thing I'm doing. And I'm like, God, I'm getting so good at it.
00:03:54:20 - 00:03:58:08
Stacy/Dori
I think Simran believed it. I think there was a part of Simran
00:03:58:10 - 00:04:02:06
Stacy/Dori
that somehow thought she was doing something good. I mean,
00:04:02:12 - 00:04:06:00
Stacy/Dori
that is true because in the, in the doc
00:04:06:02 - 00:04:31:00
Stacy/Dori
they do say that that like that. I think that they, she and Kiara had like the, a separate, you know, discussion, obviously, you know, personally, after all this happened and I think that she had told her, I saw, you know, like, I was kind of helping you because, you know, you probably had the relationship before that you knew wasn't going to work.
00:04:31:00 - 00:05:02:16
Stacy/Dori
And then but that's delusion to me. That is complete and utter delusion. Yes. Create. I mean, it was like online talking to made up people, battling Bobby constantly and having intimate moments. That was what I was going to catch. Yes, with with her cousin, I mean cousin, not Bobby. And that's disgusting.
00:05:02:18 - 00:05:05:12
Stacy/Dori
I want to hear from you, John, a doctor
00:05:05:14 - 00:05:10:13
Stacy/Dori
what is Simran? Personality disorder. What is her issue? What is her psychological problem?
00:05:10:14 - 00:05:36:03
Dr. John
Brings up. That brings up a good, note for all of our episodes. Per the ethics in my field, I can't diagnose her over the the media. But I can give some some hints and some ideas, and they're just speculation. Everyone in the audience. This is not a official diagnosis because that would be unethical, but correct, you both hit it on the head.
00:05:36:04 - 00:05:59:17
Dr. John
You both threw out some terms, which I think are certainly in the ballpark of what Simran is is dealing with. Is she sociopathic? Yeah, probably. I underline probably, borderline. You know, maybe that's a very, by the way, serious, mental illness. It's not just something to throw out.
00:05:59:19 - 00:06:03:04
Stacy/Dori
Oh, no. Did I throw out something bad? I just it's I've read about it.
00:06:03:04 - 00:06:06:09
Dr. John
It's fine. No, it's it's it's it's fine. I mean, I think it's in.
00:06:06:11 - 00:06:07:12
Stacy/Dori
The characteristics.
00:06:07:12 - 00:06:42:24
Dr. John
Of what could be going on with this, this young lady. But I also thinking of, again, going into this larger context of these people. The other thing that really hit me was the first of all, like we've said many times, they're beautiful people. They're also very wealthy people. I started to say that I know people in the Sikh community, and I also know I have a friend who was from not only the Sikh community, the Sikh, culture, religion, but also from Africa.
00:06:43:01 - 00:06:52:17
Dr. John
And these are very wealthy Indian people. And look at all the leisure time that these people had.
00:06:52:19 - 00:07:10:10
Dr. John
you know, none of us have the time to be be catfishing somebody to the extent that Simran did to cure it. And the current to spend the time obsessed with this, with this. Bobby. So that's one thing you have to keep in mind with these people.
00:07:10:12 - 00:07:36:21
Dr. John
Back to Simran. Is she mentally disturbed? Probably again. Everyone. Probably. I'm not diagnosing. But also look at the thrills that a kid would get out of this. I have to share a personal story. When I was probably in middle school, I had a friend whose mother worked for the phone company, and so she got unlimited phone time. It's.
00:07:36:21 - 00:07:37:20
Stacy/Dori
Such a bummer.
00:07:37:22 - 00:07:41:08
Dr. John
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Getting. And we would.
00:07:41:09 - 00:07:41:19
Stacy/Dori
Going.
00:07:41:24 - 00:08:12:01
Dr. John
We would get a kick out of making crank phone calls, you know, to people. We would spend hours making crank phone calls, delivering pizzas to the neighbor next door and seeing five pizzas, delivering. I maybe I shouldn't be saying this in, in an on a broadcast. We even call up. Well, before I had the idea of becoming a psychologist, we even called up a psychiatric hospital and tried to get my friend committed, and we were like, you know, 11 years old.
00:08:12:01 - 00:08:13:07
Dr. John
12 years old.
00:08:13:09 - 00:08:16:01
Stacy/Dori
That's so funny. That's so ironic, right?
00:08:16:01 - 00:08:50:17
Dr. John
But look at the similarities to this. Simran is she getting incredible kicks out of this? And you also hit on something? Stacy, I think was you just talked about the sexuality. You know that here it didn't want to talk about, but I really. My ears perked up and I wondered I could just picture Simran seeing all these sexual, conversations with Kiran and kind of getting off on it, you know, and maybe there was more of that that went on than than we know of.
00:08:50:17 - 00:08:56:10
Dr. John
And it would be interesting if, you know, we knew what the nature of that was. So.
00:08:56:10 - 00:09:11:05
Stacy/Dori
And I really want to, because I can only imagine what it was to keep her for nine years. There's got to be, you know, like it's just gross that this woman did this to Kira, you know? I mean, it's just gross to put her in that position, and then she still. Okay.
00:09:11:11 - 00:09:29:03
Dr. John
We haven't talked about, and I agree with you. I have to preface what I'm saying here by saying I agree with you when you talked about Kiara, and she's admirable woman. And you know what? She's going after this and not, you know, like they totally agree. But let's talk about her a little bit,
00:09:29:05 - 00:09:52:03
Stacy/Dori
Yeah. I was going to ask you, doctor, what happened to her? That's wrong. Because how does one keep moving on after having this nine year chunk of life invested and and and be embarrassed by it as well? I mean, there has to be embarrassment to.
00:09:52:05 - 00:10:03:05
Dr. John
Oh, absolutely. Especially to family members, you know. Oh, when are we going to meet? Well, that came up a lot. When are we going to meet Bobby? When. But how can you bring Bobby to this get together, etc..
00:10:03:07 - 00:10:09:03
Dr. John
what would make a person hang in there ten years?
00:10:09:05 - 00:10:34:11
Dr. John
And I think, again, we have to look at the cultural context of the, you know, what I talked about before about the pressures to to have a person to get married, etc. but also we have to look at the Sikh religion is that the Sikh religion values honesty and values and truthfulness. So there's an element that Kirit fell into.
00:10:34:11 - 00:10:48:05
Dr. John
Think, well, he's a Sikh. And you know, we all are honest and truthful to each other. And and so I can trust him and can believe, you know, that everything he's saying. So that's another thing we have to take a look at.
00:10:48:07 - 00:10:53:03
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:10:53:05 - 00:10:56:20
Dori / Stacey
Today we're talking about Surviving Ohio State,
00:10:56:22 - 00:11:22:08
Dori / Stacey
the documentary that chronicles the abuse committed by Doctor Richard Strauss and the decades of silence and inaction from Ohio State University. This is one of the largest sexual abuse scandals in U.S. history. Over 300 male athletes Revictimized. The documentary doesn't sensationalize it. It lets the survivors speak and what they say is devastating.
00:11:22:10 - 00:11:25:23
Dori / Stacey
first of all, I love all these guys. They're all just fantastic men.
00:11:26:03 - 00:11:26:14
Dori / Stacey
And
00:11:26:16 - 00:11:29:21
Dori / Stacey
you know, sending my kid to college, in a couple weeks.
00:11:29:23 - 00:11:37:07
Dori / Stacey
You send your kid to college, and especially if they're an athlete. My son is not an athlete, but especially if they're an athlete, you send them there
00:11:37:07 - 00:11:46:06
Dori / Stacey
and you're like, they're going to be taken care of like you don't in your mind think, oh, is he going to be abused or assaulted or you know, you know, you don't think about that.
00:11:46:08 - 00:11:50:02
Dori / Stacey
You trust doctors. You trust who's in the exam room.
00:11:50:08 - 00:12:09:08
Dori / Stacey
And these kids were these were children who didn't know what was happening to them was wrong. And when they felt uncomfortable and they brought it up to Russ, the the main coach was Russ and the assistant coach, Jim Jordan, who was in Congress, Jim Jordan, who was in Congress.
00:12:09:10 - 00:12:27:04
Dori / Stacey
And you know, if you if you watch this documentary, you'll be infuriated when you see that at first they bring Russ in and the men finally get Ahold of him and he supports them. He says he's going to write a letter to the university supporting them, and then Jim Jordan gets a hold of him. Doesn't want, you know, he lies.
00:12:27:04 - 00:12:49:09
Dori / Stacey
And Jim knew. I mean, you can, you can. I've listened. I've watched it twice. He knew. There's no everyone knew as these men. He made the comment to the referee guy. Oh, that's just Strauss. When Joe just struck doctor when a doctor was masturbating and in the shower,
00:12:49:11 - 00:13:07:15
Dori / Stacey
and he's watching all in their locker rooms of all these Ohio State sports, men's sport, he has a locker in every single one of their locker rooms.
00:13:07:17 - 00:13:13:07
Dori / Stacey
this guy was a it was a predator, and he was a sociopath, and I think a psychopath.
00:13:13:12 - 00:13:37:05
Dori / Stacey
And he was a demon. You know, these guys were talking. He was leaning in. They could feel his breasts on their genitals. They could. They could see the top of his head. They were so confused. The guy comes in with a flip problem, and he's. The guy's examining his penis. I mean, yeah, there was there was always. There was always a full body exam.
00:13:37:09 - 00:13:59:13
Dr. John
but another aspect of this that you didn't bring up. And I want to bring up, look at how he chose these victims. They made a point in the documentary that, you know, there was a lot of athletes that didn't get abused, but he was careful to choose who kids that were very, very successful.
00:13:59:13 - 00:14:29:15
Dr. John
And I'll get to that in a second. How that buffers you from a lot of things. And they were usually from rural backgrounds, simple backgrounds. So they didn't have the life experience, let's say like an urban athlete would have. Who is more, pardon the expression, exposed to these kinds of, you know, issues as they grow up in a, in a more, urban, atmosphere.
00:14:29:17 - 00:15:00:21
Dr. John
So the choice of victims was very interesting. And so a lot of our audience going to ask, why did these kids fall for this? Because as an athlete, especially when you're a good athlete. And again, I've experienced some of this in my own life. You're really buffered from a lot of, life and reality. You're so concentrated on your, your sport and being good at your sport and excelling.
00:15:00:23 - 00:15:30:08
Dr. John
You're not partying like the other kids. You're not drinking necessarily. You're not participating in sex, cheese, or a lot of the things that, adolescent males, get involved in. You're concentrating on your sport. So you don't realize the in these things. I, for example, is growing up as an athlete, I never drank, I didn't hang around people that drank.
00:15:30:14 - 00:15:41:13
Dr. John
I had no interest in drinking. So all that teenage son, let's get a six pack of beer for the weekend. Kind of thing. Incredibly incredulous to me.
00:15:41:15 - 00:15:58:03
Dori / Stacey
After John, I don't. Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, right? Even in an urban setting, like for people who grew up in a more urban setting, aren't going to be necessarily like around
00:15:58:05 - 00:16:15:21
Dori / Stacey
people, you know, like masturbating in front of them and manipulating them. And, you know, I think that a lot of this is that the men or the boys questioned their their own sexuality as well.
00:16:15:21 - 00:16:38:19
Dori / Stacey
And that's why a lot of them didn't speak up. And I understand you're talking about, like, who he kind of targeted and who he didn't target. But I, I said before, I think a lot of it also was about those that like you had said to that maybe don't you know, we talked about the like don't have the money like they just did have they relied on scholarships.
00:16:38:24 - 00:17:04:07
Dori / Stacey
So he kind of went after those that were in it like almost a powerless type of situation. Yes. They were fantastic wrestlers or fantastic fencers or, you know, whatnot. But they he still like he did it like you said, there were like thousands of people that he possibly did this to.
00:17:04:09 - 00:17:23:05
Dr. John
You're exactly right. It's this what we don't realize is the sheltering of these young men. And again, whether urban or rural environment. And like I was saying in my story, I grew up in the inner city of Chicago, and yeah, I didn't I was sheltered from a lot of things because I was an athlete.
00:17:23:07 - 00:17:28:04
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:17:28:06 - 00:17:38:15
Stacy/Dori
Today, we're diving into one of the most unsettling and enduring mysteries of the last few decades. The disappearance of Amy Lynn Bradley
00:17:38:17 - 00:17:54:23
Stacy/Dori
Amy was a 23 year old from Virginia who vanished while on a Caribbean cruise with her family in 1998. One moment she was sitting on the balcony outside her cabin and then she was gone.
00:17:55:00 - 00:18:08:14
Stacy/Dori
What makes Amy's case especially chilling is the number of alleged sightings in the years after she disappeared. People claimed to have seen her in tourist areas, in bars and even in situations suggesting human trafficking.
00:18:08:16 - 00:18:20:06
Dr. John
in terms of the crime and the story, I think it really compels us to have an episode where we're all detectives here and we're all like, detectives.
00:18:20:08 - 00:18:43:11
Dr. John
What the heck happened here? With this young lady? The other thing I want to say in my opening remarks is, this is sad. This is really a sad story. Really sad. This reminds us of our my, the episode on the, catfishing. You know, the woman that was it was strung along for. So many years with that.
00:18:43:11 - 00:18:45:11
Dr. John
That guy. I forget what episode.
00:18:45:13 - 00:18:48:21
Stacy/Dori
Bobby. Bobby. Bobby. Bobby, Bobby. Sweet Bobby.
00:18:48:23 - 00:18:49:14
Dr. John
Sweet. Bobby.
00:18:49:14 - 00:18:52:02
Stacy/Dori
Bobby. I love that woman. And I felt so bad for her.
00:18:52:02 - 00:18:56:11
Dr. John
And this, this brought those same emotions to me as, like this.
00:18:56:11 - 00:19:03:15
Stacy/Dori
Yeah. It's sad when these people's lives have been hijacked by this thing that they can't figure out. Exactly.
00:19:03:15 - 00:19:11:20
Dr. John
And, you know, I'm sad for Amy because I jump in. I think she's still alive.
00:19:11:22 - 00:19:12:16
Stacy/Dori
What?
00:19:12:18 - 00:19:14:14
Dr. John
I think she's still alive.
00:19:14:16 - 00:19:18:01
Stacy/Dori
This is so exciting. Why tell tell us, tell us.
00:19:18:03 - 00:19:36:07
Dr. John
I think, like Dory was pointing out the evidence. You know, people have seen her, and these are pretty convincing eyewitness accounts. The fellow walking along the beach who, you know, was face to face with her in, I think it was Barbados or something that
00:19:36:09 - 00:19:37:17
Dr. John
and
00:19:37:19 - 00:19:45:05
Dr. John
describes the guy she was with that could have been this yellow which for our audience this is the musician.
00:19:45:05 - 00:20:00:18
Dr. John
She kind of, bonded with. I'm saying that politely bonded with during the cruise. And so I also agree with Dory that that guy's got some connection with possibly the trafficking.
00:20:00:20 - 00:20:25:24
Dr. John
I think the the cautionary tale for our audience is that she made a dire mistake by following this guy. I think she was sold into human trafficking. I think that's where where the story goes. I think she's still alive. I have a couple of, interesting side notes in terms of that.
00:20:26:01 - 00:20:54:04
Dr. John
If you do the math, she's well into her 50s. At this point in, in my experience on the cases and human trafficking that I've dealt with, either these women are used up until they're not there, their beauty goes, their attractiveness goes, and they can't be used as escorts and prostitutes, etc.. So they're either killed or they're just, you know, discarded.
00:20:54:06 - 00:21:11:15
Dr. John
So why is she still in captivity? This question I have, and then also, both of you didn't bring up a little tidbit that was very interesting when she was in the bathroom, she was observed in the bathroom by that woman.
00:21:11:17 - 00:21:21:13
Dr. John
Her her captors mentioned something about, you'll get to see the kids. And she became happy.
00:21:21:15 - 00:21:39:20
Dr. John
But I think that. Okay, there's no question in my mind, here's the here's what goes along with my theory of human trafficking. These people do not use birth control. These people do not, protect these women. And the women can't have the the resources to protect themselves.
00:21:39:22 - 00:21:49:15
Dr. John
I think she got probably pregnant a couple of times. And that's another hook, keeping her in this whole culture of human trafficking.
00:21:49:17 - 00:22:26:11
Stacy/Dori
What about though, the fact that she is was gay and you're in in your theory is that she wanted to go like, you know, check this out with, you know, yellow shirt and she. Yeah. Alyssa, like, what do you think about the fact? Because that would be horrendous. That's just another layer. Layer. I guess if this is your theory and she's put into this trafficking that she does not find men sexually attractive, that she was gay.
00:22:26:13 - 00:22:52:04
Dr. John
Doesn't matter to the human traffickers. They force them into the situations that they're in. Think about the conversation in the bathroom that was overheard. And again, for our audience, the words were, you better do this tonight. You better be ready. Don't you run away and we'll pick you up afterwards. These women are forced to do what they do.
00:22:52:04 - 00:23:04:08
Dr. John
I mean, come on, even a heterosexual woman. Why would you want to, you know, be having sex with some, you know, pot bellied, bald, ugly.
00:23:04:10 - 00:23:08:20
Stacy/Dori
That was my last boyfriend.
00:23:08:22 - 00:23:09:10
Dr. John
No comment.
00:23:09:12 - 00:23:29:05
Stacy/Dori
No, wait a John. John. What? How long? What is. Do you know how long women stay in the trafficking? I mean, do they stay? I mean, could she get away now if she's in her 50s? Or, like, do they keep people on for 25 years?
00:23:29:07 - 00:23:56:22
Dr. John
Well, typically not, that's my point. There's. But there's some other books going on here. Did she have a couple of children with maybe one of the main characters that are involved? And so they're domesticating together, you know, and and having a little life together. And so she's hooked in that way, meaning that he, the, the father of these children is demanding that she stay.
00:23:56:22 - 00:24:08:06
Dr. John
Even those, in terms of, a sexual slave, she's no good anymore. You know, they discard these women, their their longevity in this,
00:24:08:12 - 00:24:14:18
Dr. John
captivity that they have. Yeah. Is about as much as, professional athlete, you know, it's right.
00:24:14:19 - 00:24:17:02
Stacy/Dori
That's what I mean. It's like you only get your money.
00:24:17:02 - 00:24:19:12
Dr. John
Or you can't, for some reason.
00:24:19:14 - 00:24:20:15
Stacy/Dori
Can't dance anymore.
00:24:20:17 - 00:24:25:15
Dr. John
Boom. Yeah. You're done. They discard them and they often kill them, by the way.
00:24:25:18 - 00:24:37:22
Dr. John
another thing about this whole she's still alive theory, I don't think it's more than theory. Again, if I was called in as the expert on this case, I will say she's still alive. And I got some
00:24:37:24 - 00:24:39:21
Dr. John
suggestions of how to find her, by the way.
00:24:39:22 - 00:24:42:16
Stacy/Dori
Oh, yes, this is juicy.
00:24:42:18 - 00:24:53:10
Stacy/Dori
Yeah, I know, I want to hear these theories. Yeah. Like what? What are all your your your your theory? John, you mentioned that you have these theories. Yeah. And also maybe you can use.
00:24:53:12 - 00:24:54:02
Dr. John
The.
00:24:54:04 - 00:24:56:16
Stacy/Dori
You can help find it. Yeah. Which is how here's.
00:24:56:16 - 00:25:18:18
Dr. John
What kills me if, if this family would have called me into the case, it would have said, forget the FBI. The FBI doesn't have any jurisdiction here. I mean, find they have some resources. And, but if you notice in the whole documentary and these were wonderful people, I work with these people, not these specific ones in the, in the documentary, but they're good people.
00:25:18:20 - 00:25:46:04
Dr. John
And I'm not saying anything against the, the agents that were in the documentary, but they were really helpless. I mean, they were covered at so many things. Why didn't the family get an excellent private detective and the money that they've out laid to try to find her, put it into, you know, a top notch private detectives. These people exist.
00:25:46:04 - 00:26:15:18
Dr. John
They're not just in movies. And this person would find her and the other agency that's out there. And again, this is real. This is not just movies or novels. There's an agency called Interpol, which is an international, FBI type, law enforcement agency for which has jurisdiction throughout the whole world. Why weren't they brought in?
00:26:15:20 - 00:26:18:00
Stacy/Dori
And what's going on? Is there a cover up?
00:26:18:02 - 00:26:44:03
Dr. John
Yeah. And and why aren't an agency like that doing more against this human trafficking? It's a huge thing. It's a very sickening, huge crime that's happening in the world. And I don't see anything really being done at these levels to help these women that are are being kidnaped and forced into this sexual slavery.
00:26:44:05 - 00:26:50:21
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:26:50:22 - 00:26:59:24
Stacey/Dori
An unknown number. High school catfish on Netflix. One of the most surprising stories isn't about teenagers pretending to be someone else.
00:27:00:01 - 00:27:10:06
Stacey/Dori
The fake profile at the center of this case was created by someone much closer, and far more unexpected than anyone realized.
00:27:10:08 - 00:27:22:08
Stacey/Dori
What started out as casual online messages grew into a complicated web of lies and manipulation, leaving real emotional consequences for the students involved.
00:27:22:10 - 00:27:51:10
Stacey/Dori
these are children that are 13, 14, 15 years old in this very small town in Michigan. 30 people in their class. And one day, the the the documentary centers around this, this girl named Lauren and her boyfriend Erwin, who had grown up with each other. They've known each other for years. They date.
00:27:51:14 - 00:28:23:13
Stacey/Dori
But again, 30 people in their class. So like, everybody knows each other, and they start getting these text to both of them that are Stacy mentioned, like they sound like a kid, but they are vile. They are extremely sexually explicit. I mean, we're going to say some words here, but it's literally like, what is the one like my fingers in your pussy?
00:28:23:13 - 00:28:41:03
Stacey/Dori
Like, it's like disgusting kind of stuff. Plus they start to as the texts go on, they start talking about killing the kids like you should kill yourselves.
00:28:41:05 - 00:28:51:13
Stacey/Dori
and obviously when we bring the doctor out, I know he's going to have a lot of, I think we're both going to have a lot of questions for him because of the psyche of somebody that can do this.
00:28:51:14 - 00:29:14:11
Stacey/Dori
Let's just, let's just reveal after years of looking to see who is doing this to the kids after bringing in the FBI, this went on for like two years after bringing in the FBI. It turns out it is the girl Lauren's mother.
00:29:14:13 - 00:29:22:23
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, the mother doing this nonstop bump. Bump?
00:29:23:00 - 00:29:37:05
Dr. John
why at the beginning when this started, why didn't these parents take these phones away and say, you know what your 13 years of age were giving you the privilege of these phones, but this is this is so crazy.
00:29:37:07 - 00:29:51:05
Dr. John
We're not just shutting them down like they did at some point, but just literally you can't have the phone this, this. That's what we'll stop this. Take the phone away, you know, don't I don't know what you think about that as well.
00:29:51:05 - 00:30:10:06
Stacey/Dori
I don't think that that mother wanted her to get her phone taken away, because that would have taken away her fun, right? Right. I mean, not that not that she was having fun. I mean, she was obviously tormented. But how does somebody continue this on and see their child in so much pain unless they're really in what is the psychological situation?
00:30:10:08 - 00:30:38:08
Dr. John
Well, this clearly is a very disturbed woman, and I don't know if you want me to reveal at this early stage of our, broadcast here what I think is the key, which the documentary missed. You know that, as Dory pointed out, the superintendent, we agree, was kind of a, you know, publicity, hound. He came up with this cyber munchausen.
00:30:38:10 - 00:31:16:21
Dr. John
Oh. That's clever. And it it goes a little bit deeper than that. Sure, there's Munchausen aspects to this, but, you know, a Munchausen mom would have brought Lauren or Lowe into, psychiatric treatment and bring her in for evaluations. This is what Munchausen people do. They, you know, they they dawdle over the, child and, love the the medical attention and the professional attention that the child is getting.
00:31:16:23 - 00:31:40:15
Dr. John
So I think this goes much, much deeper than that, but I'm going to reserve that for a little bit because I think, the some more dramatic analysis. But this, this mom is, is very, very sick. And I think I have the, the Genesis or what we call etiology of what happened to her, that she turned this way.
00:31:40:20 - 00:31:57:01
Stacey/Dori
I think, John, you were, you know, kind of teasing what you think about Kendra, but I think this is a good time just to like, tell us, like, what type of a person is this who, who can do this for that long to their child?
00:31:57:07 - 00:32:06:11
Stacey/Dori
They live in a small community to me. And I'm, you know, like, I don't know what the diagnosis is. I would just say she's not.
00:32:06:13 - 00:32:43:15
Dr. John
Yeah, well, that's, you know, a clinical term that I often use. Yeah. Well, let me I, I'm really proud of our broadcasts because we really can dig deep and get behind what's happening here. And here we go. A very small for very. What should I say? Quick statement was made, by Kendra after the whole thing was revealed.
00:32:43:15 - 00:33:12:10
Dr. John
And, in fact, she was out of prison. She talked about being raped at 17. So the remind the audience, Kendra, the mom was raped when she was 17 years of age. When she said that, I was looking at her face and her expression, that was where the damage was done is she was she was raped. She was, you know, victimized.
00:33:12:10 - 00:33:41:09
Dr. John
It could have been brutal. I would have loved again. Here we are. You know, criticizing the documentary. But I would have loved if they went into, you know, how brutally she was raped. I got a feeling that she was brutally raped at 17. Which leads to what? I think she hated men. I think she hates men. When her daughter gets involved at, like, middle school with Owen.
00:33:41:11 - 00:34:09:20
Dr. John
And remember, they were called the Golden couple because it was so cute. Both athletes, good students, they were the golden couple at, Bill High School, I think it was. Or middle school. I think that anger and rage against the men came out. The other little tidbit that gave me evidence was when she talked about getting pregnant.
00:34:09:22 - 00:34:38:24
Dr. John
And if you recall how she talked about getting burnt. Well, when you don't have much in your life. And I think she even said something to the effect of me, help me here. Like, you know, I'm kind of there is no love and affection in my marriage, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but. And then I get this wonderful gift of a child, you know, etc. so that means, again, let's go back to the rape.
00:34:39:01 - 00:35:07:02
Dr. John
So this was not a marital relationship that was loving and could repair what happened to her from a man. And I think the epicenter of what's going on here is that she didn't want her daughter to have any involvement with, a man, a guy, whether it be Owen, etc., because she was so angry at men, hates men, and dance or violence.
00:35:07:02 - 00:35:17:15
Dr. John
And that's why the strength of it. That's why the, you know, 40 some texts a day, etc., is that anger and rage against men?
00:35:17:17 - 00:35:40:00
Stacey/Dori
Lauren's reaction, her demeanor throughout the whole documentary and at the end where they disclose it is her mother doing it, and they obviously do a follow up, you know, after the whole thing went down. What do you think about how she reacted to everything?
00:35:40:02 - 00:36:06:07
Dr. John
I really thought both of you were taking my my role away from the Spanish. Yes, because I think you nailed it. And, you know, we can talk about this Munchausen thing and debunk the debunk. Debunk that. But I think you nailed the Stockholm syndrome. And you see this in kids. I have seen, you know, some of the kids that I've treated who have horrendous parents and have been abused by parents.
00:36:06:09 - 00:36:30:04
Dr. John
But then a couple of years after the epicenter of the abuse, they I want to have a relationship with my mom or my dad, you know, and because having a mom in my life is important and I don't really know why, but I want to and that comes from our socialization as people. You know, we get I think sometimes it's a myth.
00:36:30:04 - 00:36:53:21
Dr. John
We get brainwashed that while it's important to have a mommy and daddy in your life or grandma and grandpa and they might be the most horrible people in the whole world abused you, scarred you for life. One of the things that I work with people on in therapy is that if a person doesn't add to your life, what do you really need them in your life for?
00:36:53:21 - 00:37:09:17
Dr. John
This is not the way life should go. And I felt that for for Lauren is that while this is where she needs some some treatment, some good treatment is in, what does that look like to have this person in your life?
00:37:09:19 - 00:37:14:19
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:37:14:21 - 00:37:22:18
Dr John
This is a story about a former child star. Unresolved trauma and what happens when fame never really lets go.
00:37:22:20 - 00:37:36:05
Stacey/Dori
Today we're discussing Corey Feldman Versus the World. A documentary on YouTube that follows Corey Feldman during a period of instability, isolation and ongoing public scrutiny.
00:37:36:07 - 00:37:54:22
Stacey/Dori
the film, documents Feldman on tour with his band and the group of women he refers to as his angels. While the imagery can be jarring. The deeper focus of the documentary is a man shaped by early fame and long term trauma, struggling to maintain control over his narrative and his life.
00:37:54:24 - 00:38:00:24
Stacey/Dori
because of his fame and how famous he was from movies like Stand By Me, Goonies and others.
00:38:00:24 - 00:38:32:02
Stacey/Dori
I mean, really big, big, big, big movies, big box office things. Big child star fame. And he's a great actor. I have to say, I don't know how his acting is now, but when he was a kid, kid? Holy crap, that was a real actor that maybe could have been nurtured into like a wonderful adult actor. But I think his trauma and his home life, which he says was abusive and his father was sort of in and out of his life and sort of left his life because Corey didn't want him to manage him.
00:38:32:04 - 00:38:39:24
Stacey/Dori
So his father was like, well, if I can't manage you, I don't want to be your dad by. And the mom was abusive. So he's had he had a rough, rough childhood.
00:38:40:01 - 00:38:40:06
Stacey/Dori
God.
00:38:40:10 - 00:38:46:21
Dr John
We're going to we're going to have to hear the green room door open up on these podcasts, because I'm coming out right now.
00:38:47:00 - 00:38:47:11
Dr John
But,
00:38:47:13 - 00:39:03:09
Stacey/Dori
I wouldn't know what your baseline just. And like, you watch like, this is an hour and a half documentary. I found it, I was riveted from beginning to end. I'm curious, like what your thoughts were about Mr. Feldman?
00:39:03:14 - 00:39:38:00
Dr John
Well, first of all, like you said, Dory, I mean, I started watching this, and of all the things we've watched so far, my mouth was open. I was like, what is this? Know what the hell is this with these girls and these, they looked like thrift store costumes of angels. And as Stacy was saying him with this gangster hood over himself, you know, being tough, which I think psychologically says something.
00:39:38:00 - 00:39:39:15
Dr John
And maybe I'll get to that later.
00:39:39:17 - 00:39:40:10
Stacey/Dori
Okay, good.
00:39:40:10 - 00:40:11:09
Dr John
But I want to know your mouth was open, with this whole thing. And I also the thing. I made a note of this. It took an hour and ten minutes on this documentary before I thought the hammer dropped. You know, this whole time we're seeing this goofy performance, and. And I was waiting to hear you both comment on the performance, because I'm sitting, I'm not in the entertainment industry, and I'm going, well, the stupidest thing I've ever seen them.
00:40:11:09 - 00:40:17:02
Stacey/Dori
It was it's embarrassing. And you can see by the venues like he was at like a, like a local bar.
00:40:17:04 - 00:40:33:09
Dr John
I totally agree with Stacy saying the motivation here was to advance their career. Here's here's a major Hollywood star. He's starting this this music group, you know, you don't know what how it's going to be like until you join it.
00:40:33:11 - 00:40:45:12
Dr John
And that was their motivation. But I don't even I just my assessment is these are not that bright individuals. Margot, who was the violin player?
00:40:45:14 - 00:40:48:09
Stacey/Dori
Thank you for the names. I know music.
00:40:48:11 - 00:41:09:15
Dr John
I mean, she was the music director and and had musical talent. And she seemed to have her head on somewhat. Yes. But, you know, once, once you saw the costumes that you were going to wear and his performance, wouldn't you? You guys are in the entertainment industry, wouldn't you, Bale?
00:41:09:17 - 00:41:33:07
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, I thought it was satire. It looks like satire. He was like, joke, right? Like a joke. I thought, well, but it's not a no. I know, because I'm the show. When I started this, this was what, like the he got a it went viral. So he's thinking, oh my gosh, we're an actual band. Like people want us to tour.
00:41:33:07 - 00:41:43:14
Stacey/Dori
They want it like I'm an actual artist of music. But everybody was laughing at it. That's why it went viral. Well, hold up. Disconnect.
00:41:43:16 - 00:42:05:00
Dr John
Can I go back to my question? You both, yes. Are artists and good at what you do. If if you arrived at Corey Feldman house and you saw in rehearsal what this was going to be like, and you looked around at the other people and then looked at these costumes that, you know, we're going to put you in skimpy outfits.
00:42:05:02 - 00:42:09:19
Dr John
Would you run out of that house or would you stay.
00:42:09:21 - 00:42:12:11
Stacey/Dori
The new me would not stay, would not go.
00:42:12:13 - 00:42:13:01
Dr John
Yeah.
00:42:13:03 - 00:42:33:10
Stacey/Dori
The old me would have gone. But I don't know if I would have stayed. Yeah, young Dory would have definitely gone. Yeah for sure. But like, would I have like, I'd probably like I said, I would have been very nervous. Like I would have like I've been anxious too and been like. But I would have had that in my head.
00:42:33:10 - 00:42:47:05
Stacey/Dori
Like, do I stay for this opportunity? Right? Do I keep trying, waiting it out in. Yeah. Or waiting leave? Yeah. Or do I run away like I may have stayed for? I may have stayed to.
00:42:47:07 - 00:42:52:07
Dr John
And if you want my shocking analysis now, or should I wait?
00:42:52:09 - 00:42:55:00
Stacey/Dori
No, no, no, I'm clamoring.
00:42:55:02 - 00:43:26:22
Dr John
All right, you know what I thought of as about halfway in between this is that this is exactly like Charles Manson. Wow. Wait. The older Corey even looks like Charles Manson if you look at it. Oh, and Charles Manson had the same kind of organization, right? He had a bunch of women, couple of guys, but mostly women who just, you know, were their idol.
00:43:26:22 - 00:43:28:08
Stacey/Dori
Works for him. Yeah.
00:43:28:10 - 00:43:57:12
Dr John
And remember, at some points in the documentary, he had this whole Jesus fantasy. So did Charles Manson. And what another thing that Charlie Manson was broken about was that he envisioned himself as a songwriter, and the Beach Boys wouldn't, wouldn't play any of his songs. They rejected his songs. And and that kind of broke him. And got bizarre.
00:43:57:14 - 00:44:19:24
Dr John
And again, you have the Charles Manson kind of thread, the kind of mindset where I'm going to change the world or we're having a revolution here. I'm going to, you know, the whole thing with Corey, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to break up Hollywood with my, you know, revelations. Who did Charles Manson kill? Hollywood stars.
00:44:20:01 - 00:44:24:24
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:44:25:01 - 00:44:30:03
Stacey
Hollywood runs on access. Or at least the appearance of access.
00:44:30:05 - 00:44:39:01
Dori
And that idea is at the center of Hollywood. Hustler. Glitz. Glam scam. Now streaming on Amazon Prime.
00:44:39:03 - 00:44:45:20
Stacey
The documentary follows Zach Horowitz, an aspiring actor who wasn't breaking through in Hollywood.
00:44:45:22 - 00:44:55:02
Dori
instead of success on screen, he built a different story. One that positioned him as a powerful industry insider.
00:44:55:04 - 00:45:03:21
Stacey
Horowitz claimed he had exclusive foreign film distribution deals and strong connections to major studios and streaming platforms.
00:45:03:23 - 00:45:14:12
Dori
Netflix. Amazon International buyers names that sounded credible and discouraged questions.
00:45:14:14 - 00:45:24:09
Dori
we have a Chicago connection with Zach because he opened a juice store, probably like off of the Mag Mile.
00:45:24:10 - 00:45:55:05
Dori
That was his first thing where he was. He opened it with with the inclination that the Starbucks dude, Howard Schwartz was that his name was investing money into a little rinky dink, juice bar where Zach was paying his friends six figure incomes to run a small juice bar for three months. Scam.
00:45:55:07 - 00:46:03:10
Stacey
It has to be a, you know, maybe it was some money laundering, I think. What was that was money running through there, like the map suggesting that just.
00:46:03:10 - 00:46:27:18
Dori
Like, maybe like he did get money from his mother, right. And and the stepfather and mother argued funneling that as his first. You know, those Ponzi schemes are you have to always have more and more people buying into it for you to pay off Paul, to pay Peter. Peter. Exactly. He's bringing in lots of new investors.
00:46:27:22 - 00:46:31:21
Stacey
Keep bringing it in. So when it goes out, you got to get more in.
00:46:31:23 - 00:46:56:03
Dr John
I think my revelation on this, I'm sure you'll agree, is why why were these guys following? But you got to go back to the scenes in the documentary. They're college buddies and they're drinking and they're smoking pot and all this stuff and t shirts on and if you look at them, they're all the same type of people, including Zach.
00:46:56:05 - 00:47:19:10
Dr John
So why did they believe in him? Why did they continue to to hang with and when when this stuff was going sour, etc.? They all share of the same values system. You remember how we talk about serial killers and they have their own world view. You know, this is this is the way I see the world. Well, it exists here with Zach Horowitz.
00:47:19:10 - 00:47:21:14
Dr John
So this is my world view.
00:47:21:16 - 00:47:31:01
Dr John
And I want this is a good time to point out another observation I had about this fellow and this type of fellow and and Dorie, I think this would resonate with you.
00:47:31:03 - 00:47:57:22
Dr John
Just like murderers. It's always a progression, right? You start to do a little bit of things and kind of almost like if the audience could see me now, you know, kind of with my eyes, you know, lowered and, you know, like a little ratty kind of look as like, oh, did that work? Oh, okay. Now I'll add a little more, you know, it's if you remember from high school chemistry class, it's called titration.
00:47:57:24 - 00:48:18:16
Dr John
When you get, you just take your little pipette and you put a little chemical in, you mix it into the beaker and go, is that going to work okay. Oh add a little more. It's always a progression of permission. Whether it's a murderer, serial killer or a scam artist like this.
00:48:18:21 - 00:48:19:15
Dori
Is that
00:48:19:20 - 00:48:45:15
Dori
why do you think I in? I know Stacy probably asks questions, but like, why would somebody like a Zack or with even want to be married? And then he had kids like he he I mean, one would assume he knew this girl, his wife from college. They were college sweethearts. Was there any truth to somebody like this?
00:48:45:17 - 00:48:50:11
Dr John
Well, I think first of all, that's an outstanding question, one that I didn't think of.
00:48:50:11 - 00:48:51:12
Stacey
Well, I didn't either.
00:48:51:16 - 00:49:00:23
Dr John
Watching watching the documentary. But but I think I have an answer. If it projects that.
00:49:01:00 - 00:49:01:05
Stacey
He's.
00:49:01:05 - 00:49:07:03
Dr John
Normal ception of normality and look at I'm just a regular, you know.
00:49:07:05 - 00:49:08:04
Stacey
Married guy with.
00:49:08:05 - 00:49:18:00
Dr John
Upstanding guy with kids. And of all the people he was surrounded by, she was the best looking and the most normal. She was.
00:49:18:00 - 00:49:18:18
Stacey
Beautiful.
00:49:18:20 - 00:49:20:10
Dr John
A beautiful woman. He married.
00:49:20:10 - 00:49:21:01
Stacey
Beautiful.
00:49:21:01 - 00:49:44:15
Dr John
Scott, great looking kids. You know where everybody around him was to me, was just kind of scummy looking and, you know, kind of, you know, unattractive in many ways. But I think it's that sense of, of, you know, I'm just a normal guy, you know, and I have normal values like everybody else. Hidden beneath is the real demon here, you know, he's not.
00:49:44:16 - 00:49:50:16
Stacey
I don't think he love I mean, I don't think there's I mean, he might have said he loved her and that she was in love with him. His wife.
00:49:50:18 - 00:49:51:08
Dr John
Yeah.
00:49:51:10 - 00:49:51:24
Stacey
You know, and.
00:49:51:24 - 00:50:01:02
Dr John
Well, look at the life that that he gave her. I mean, this girl some, as you point out, Santa Claus, was a Christmas present.
00:50:01:02 - 00:50:02:06
Stacey
Santa Claus.
00:50:02:08 - 00:50:03:00
Dr John
Santa Claus.
00:50:03:01 - 00:50:04:21
Stacey
Santa Claus is from. I looked it up.
00:50:04:21 - 00:50:09:05
Dori
It's not Christmas, Ohio. It's Santa.
00:50:09:07 - 00:50:09:20
Stacey
Anna.
00:50:10:01 - 00:50:10:18
Dr John
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:10:22 - 00:50:24:22
Dori
is it innate? And I know you say the progression. Is it the people like my college roommate who I thought was a really nice person, and it turns out she's literally a low level grifter.
00:50:24:24 - 00:50:45:13
Dori
I just want to know if it's something that like, I didn't hear it. Where do they get it from? Like, what is it? Is it that they so want money or they get a taste of it and then they suddenly become so evil, or they don't think they're doing a bad job. They think there were times when she would say to me, I'm helping you, I helped you.
00:50:45:15 - 00:50:46:17
Stacey
Oh, God, what.
00:50:46:19 - 00:50:49:10
Dori
Are you talking about? You took out my money.
00:50:49:12 - 00:51:25:06
Dr John
Well, right. I think there's there's two things important to understand that's at play here. One is, a possible mental illness and that these people that, they're, they're sociopathic, you know, they, they they use people. They have no conscience about using people, for their own gain. They don't follow social rules. You know, we see that all over and this that Horowitz case here, you know, broke the rules of marriage and all kinds of rules that he broke socially, let alone monetarily.
00:51:25:08 - 00:51:53:16
Dr John
So that's one thing. You know, there's a mental illness and involved of, you know, sociopathic behavior. And the second thing is, is our society, you know, we we live in a very, impulsive, greedy society. And it's a capitalism is is based on that. The money is money is. I hate to use. Yeah. I, you know, I was going to hate to use that word because I don't believe that.
00:51:53:16 - 00:51:57:12
Dr John
I don't believe money is powerful, but that doesn't impress me.
00:51:57:18 - 00:51:59:01
Stacey
I guess it's an illusion.
00:51:59:03 - 00:52:10:06
Dr John
Yeah, it's power is something that power to me is someone who's intellectual, who's deceitful. Yeah. Knowledgeable and who's a leader. Not not because they have a but.
00:52:10:07 - 00:52:15:08
Dori
In our country right now, it is very much power is money like money hours.
00:52:15:08 - 00:52:16:12
Stacey
Money power.
00:52:16:14 - 00:52:21:18
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:52:21:20 - 00:52:34:14
Stacey
If you grew up in the early 2000. So you probably remember Jared, the subway guy, the college student who claimed he lost over 200 pounds just by eating subway sandwiches and walking everywhere.
00:52:34:16 - 00:52:46:18
Dori
He became this unbelievably wholesome symbol. Subway's entire brand revolved around him. The success story, the friendly face of the company.
00:52:46:20 - 00:52:55:09
Stacey
Commercials, talk shows, school events. He was everywhere. One of the most recognizable advertising campaigns in America.
00:52:55:11 - 00:53:12:03
Dori
Which is why the HBO Max documentary Jared From Subway Catching a monster is so disturbing because the man behind that image turned out to be a convicted child sex offender who was secretly exploiting minors.
00:53:12:05 - 00:53:20:07
Stacey
The documentary shows how the investigation actually began, with a radio journalist who started secretly recording conversations with him.
00:53:20:09 - 00:53:26:21
Dori
And those recordings reveal what he was really saying when he thought no one important was listening.
00:53:26:23 - 00:53:46:21
Stacey
So what happened with Rochelle Herman, who was the radio talk show host, who, you know, suspected him of being, predator. And so they developed this relationship over the phone where he revealed all of this stuff to her, and she what, by the way, beautiful radio voice.
00:53:46:23 - 00:54:05:24
Stacey
Just the way she was talking to him with this kind of voice where? Well, what kind of kids do you like the best, boys or girls? Do you like blonds? You know, but also behind that, she was working undercover for the FBI and, like, driving all this evidence back and forth to them.
00:54:06:01 - 00:54:30:10
Dori
So. Yeah. So Rochelle so essentially like, kind of like to give a little bit of context. So we're shell meet Jared at one of his like public speaking events. And she was there to to interview him. And right off the bat she got he mentioned something about like middle schoolers right. That like yep there's like and she's like, did I hear that correctly?
00:54:30:15 - 00:54:32:09
Stacey
Her spidey senses were tingling.
00:54:32:09 - 00:55:08:08
Dori
Yeah, her Spidey sense. And so she thinks, wait a second. I think that this guy is into young kids. I am going to start recording him. I'm going to start having these conversations with him and record him to see if I am right and to see what he, what he cops to. So with all that, she has these two kids that she doesn't tell anything about this, that she's been, like, involved with this.
00:55:08:08 - 00:55:26:17
Dori
Jared Fogle really just to try to get him to confess that he wants to bang young children, and he does. And it ruins her relationship with her children. She's an FBI informant.
00:55:26:19 - 00:55:29:11
Stacey
Us why he became this way. What happened to him?
00:55:29:11 - 00:55:57:21
Dr. John
Well, let's go back. And this is what again, we see this so many times in the material that we, analyze on these podcasts. There's no description of what made this guy. And let's go back and look at him as a, middle school person. He was. And I may be wrong here, close to 400 pounds as a middle school, kid, I.
00:55:57:21 - 00:56:01:04
Dori
Think that's a little too much. Was that.
00:56:01:04 - 00:56:01:14
Dr. John
Later?
00:56:01:20 - 00:56:08:22
Dori
Was he? Will he? Yeah. Like as a kid, he did lose 200 pounds, but I think. Yeah, he was close. That was when.
00:56:08:22 - 00:56:10:16
Dr. John
He was 20 or 19.
00:56:10:16 - 00:56:13:15
Dori
But he was a big kid. He was a very a huge.
00:56:13:15 - 00:56:16:21
Dr. John
He was the morbidly we call it morbidly obese.
00:56:17:01 - 00:56:17:23
Dori
Morbidly obese.
00:56:17:23 - 00:56:49:00
Dr. John
Man. And then when you saw the pictures of him, that was an unusual young man for his age. That's what I'm getting at. I don't know, the I, I qualified myself when I said I might get this wrong, but he was morbidly obese, and friends of his were interviewed on the documentary, friends of His at the time of middle school, etc. and said, you know, he was really just like almost excluded, was considered out of the mainstream because he was such a large kid.
00:56:49:02 - 00:57:08:14
Dr. John
How do parents let a child get that sick? That that's a sickness to be? That that, obese? And I don't want to get into parents that are obsessively crazy about dieting and their chil.
00:57:08:16 - 00:57:17:00
Dr. John
We'll have another episode. I'm sure we'll have a case about parents who who, berate and nag their kids about weight, but it's. This is the.
00:57:17:00 - 00:57:21:20
Dori
Class we had the way down. I think we did the way down where they the first one.
00:57:21:22 - 00:57:22:20
Dr. John
Exactly.
00:57:22:21 - 00:57:23:15
Dori
Yeah.
00:57:23:17 - 00:57:32:04
Dr. John
Exactly. But but this is a this is something. How can you watch your kid get that huge.
00:57:32:06 - 00:57:37:15
Dori
But he was so depressed, right. He was so depressed that his only friend was food.
00:57:37:17 - 00:58:06:06
Dr. John
And and where's the chicken and the egg question here. Was he depressed because he was, you know, overweight or was he overweight because he was depressed? You don't know. But again, very important in the development of this young man. Now what happens? He's excluded from the peer group. He's this huge anomaly for the kids his age and kind of the, you know, the sick animal of the pack, you know, and people stay away from him.
00:58:06:08 - 00:58:33:19
Dr. John
So what develops what develops is two major things that our audience needs to know about. One is that you you get angry. No question. That anger develops. Anger. I'm pounding. You know, there's an anger to his sexuality with kids. You know, I didn't get this when I was a kid, you know? And this is what I had to go through as a kid.
00:58:33:19 - 00:59:01:07
Dr. John
So I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, understand? He was he was hurting kids, and he knew it because of what he missed. This is my theory. The other thing is, when you were that excluded from the peer group and you're suffering from this sickness that he had, which was obesity. It's a disease. It's a it's a sickness.
00:59:01:09 - 00:59:23:21
Dr. John
You missed what we call developmental tasks, where stages in development that you're supposed to go through. And one of them is sexuality. At that age, you're learning and discovering about sexuality. And he doesn't go to normal sexuality development. And what happens when we have a pedophile created.
00:59:23:23 - 00:59:26:17
Dr. John
Oh, what a mild policy.
00:59:26:19 - 00:59:29:23
Dr. John
Yeah. What's mild pedophilia when you're getting pounded.
00:59:30:04 - 01:00:03:20
Dori
Yeah. And are the degrees of pedophilia. So now we have a quantified range of a quote unquote mild. Would you think mild pedophilia is literally going to schools, going to Thailand, going to New York, calling up escort services to try to get little children to your room to pound. Is that mild? Because if that's mild pedophilia, I don't even want to know what like high level pedophilia would be.
01:00:03:22 - 01:00:12:09
Dr. John
The answer is just like pregnancy. Is there a mild pregnancy? Is there little bit for little? Are you a little bit pregnant?
01:00:12:09 - 01:00:13:10
Dori
Right. Right right.
01:00:13:11 - 01:00:34:01
Dr. John
You're pregnant. And the same thing with pedophiles. You're a pedophile by the way. I want to slip in for audience, information. One of the lowest success rates we have with disorders in crime is at the rehabilitation of pedophiles.
01:00:34:03 - 01:00:34:24
Dori
Really?
01:00:35:04 - 01:00:37:04
Stacey
Do you think that that can happen?
01:00:37:06 - 01:00:43:20
Dr. John
I read well, it's very rare that, a pedophile gets truly rehabilitated.
01:00:43:20 - 01:00:50:08
Dori
So what does it mean when they're so they're then registered. So if he gets out, he's a registered sex offender.
01:00:50:10 - 01:00:51:21
Stacey
Yeah. He has to register.
01:00:51:23 - 01:00:57:21
Dori
Right. And then what does that mean to be a registered sex offender? What can he not do as a.
01:00:57:22 - 01:01:03:22
Dr. John
Well, he's certainly not going to be a spokesperson for Jersey Mike's or some other.
01:01:03:24 - 01:01:09:05
Dori
Maybe he will be for Jersey Mike's sort of stuff. Yeah.
01:01:09:07 - 01:01:31:12
Dr. John
But, what it means is that, he has to register in any community lives in. And that's public record. So, for example, if you're buying a house and, no, Cleveland Heights, Ohio, and you're looking at the neighborhood profile, you can see that a, a pedophile is registered, maybe living next door to you. And if you have a.
01:01:31:12 - 01:01:37:00
Dori
Couple that go to certain things, can he not, like, go to a school or go to, or can he has to.
01:01:37:00 - 01:01:53:03
Dr. John
Be right. Good point. There's a lot of rules for the registered, pedophile sex offenders. One of them is, yeah, he has to be a certain distance from, it's literally distance. They it's quantified. It's like 20ft from from,
01:01:53:05 - 01:02:12:17
Stacey
Can't see his own child. I mean, he's ruined his own children, too. Yeah. Who had a dad and now they don't know what the hell is going on. I'm sure. I mean, he should not be able to. You know, Josh Duggar is when he gets out, which, you know, he got a light sentence too, in my opinion. He he's not allowed to be with his children alone.
01:02:12:19 - 01:02:15:24
Dr. John
Yeah. They'll be there'll be a lot of restrictions on this guy.
01:02:15:24 - 01:02:16:18
Stacey
And I mean.
01:02:16:22 - 01:02:35:06
Dr. John
He's based on his life is his life is pretty much, you know, and that's the other thing you have to think about in terms of sentences, both of you, is that, you know, we get angry and I got angry at the fact that Jared gets 16.8 years. Yeah, but but he's going to suffer the rest of his life.
01:02:35:08 - 01:02:42:17
Dr. John
He's getting his life is not going to you not going to be, to use your expression, kosher.
01:02:42:19 - 01:02:55:19
Stacey
Why? What have you ever. Can I ask you a personal question? And it's not personal because I'm asking on the podcast, have you ever worked with a pedophile and been successful in, in, you know, getting them healthy?
01:02:55:21 - 01:03:22:10
Dr. John
No. And I'll tell you why. The biggest reason is that I don't take pedophiles. And as for therapy cases, I can't deal with them. One of the things you is the absolute baseline of being a good therapist is that you have to be objective. I can't be objective with a pedophile. I would I would want to stab them in my office because I have children.
01:03:22:12 - 01:03:25:22
Dr. John
I have no, I can't have any objectivity.
01:03:25:24 - 01:03:37:03
Dori
Where is your line? Where is your line? So what what is what is your line? Like a pedophiles? No. Will you take on a murderer of of you know will you.
01:03:37:04 - 01:03:55:13
Dr. John
Yes I I'll take. Yes. Yeah I'll take on I you know I deal with criminals in therapy all the time. Particularly is an offshoot of my consultations that I do with law enforcement. Pedophiles may be the only one. And old people. I'm terrible with old people.
01:03:55:15 - 01:03:58:07
Dori
You can't take on my mother. How old?
01:03:58:09 - 01:03:59:01
Dr. John
Sorry.
01:03:59:03 - 01:04:07:23
Dori
My daughter in her memory care facility, I would. I mean, you know, for you to take on Jody Goldman, and now you're telling me you won't,
01:04:08:00 - 01:04:10:08
Stacey
What is your oldest age that you'll take?
01:04:10:13 - 01:04:14:20
Dr. John
Oh, I don't know. I don't know if it's an age. Any particular a case.
01:04:14:22 - 01:04:17:09
Dori
Since you're so young, doctor? Yeah.
01:04:17:09 - 01:04:19:20
Stacey
39, 35, I just nine.
01:04:19:20 - 01:04:44:08
Dr. John
Okay. 3939. Review. Some of our other tapes, 39. Yeah, I don't know. It's not necessarily a specific age, but I just don't I don't keep up with, research literature on, geriatrics. I didn't really go through a lot of coursework in school of, geriatrics, and I and I don't necessarily relate. Well to.
01:04:44:10 - 01:04:48:17
Dori
Shocking, very shocking.
01:04:48:19 - 01:05:06:06
Stacey
Very upsetting. Just kidding. No, but but that's, you know, I wanted to know because I think, what is the percentage of chance that somebody who's really motivated good could, Oh, my God, I just. What's the word? Be.
01:05:06:06 - 01:05:07:04
Dr. John
Reasonable.
01:05:07:06 - 01:05:07:16
Stacey
We have the.
01:05:07:20 - 01:05:08:20
Dr. John
Ability.
01:05:08:22 - 01:05:10:05
Stacey
As a pedophile.
01:05:10:07 - 01:05:26:02
Dr. John
Well, you you said some kids, they're really motivated. Really want to to work at it. But the that percentage is is it's good. But our overall percentage of dealing with pedophiles, it's it's less than 5%.
01:05:26:04 - 01:06:02:21
Dori
I mean, how would one even get that if that is such a driving force in your life that that is your attraction and that and I get it that there are you can, maybe I mean, you know, there are a lot of men, probably some women that are sex addicts, that are literally addicted to sex, whether it be a pornography, addiction or, just having, you know, having sex with people, but like with children and really into child pornography and really into children.
01:06:02:21 - 01:06:19:23
Dori
And I do think you're right, I, I absolutely believe it's because when he was younger and nobody liked him and nobody talked to him, that it's almost like that Michael Jackson type of thing where you want to like you're still maybe even in that childlike state.
01:06:20:00 - 01:06:21:21
Stacey
Yeah, that's a good point.
01:06:21:23 - 01:06:36:13
Dori
But I couldn't even see somebody truly in their life shirking that. If that has been their reality, like for so long, I don't know.
01:06:36:13 - 01:07:04:16
Dr. John
I do worry. Dori, that's that's a great comment because what happens to us mentally is we have scars. You have literally scars. And and you development that oftentimes cannot be healed. And for Jared, it's the scar of what he missed. And that development and also human anger is a big part. The documentary did not go into this. Again our purpose here the doctor already gone.
01:07:04:16 - 01:07:14:05
Dr. John
But again language pounding and you know, there was other language and I can't think of it right now, but just show the anger towards kids.
01:07:14:11 - 01:07:27:22
Dori
Well, and how many times have we seen, just like in again, the mild mannered ones? You never think that the, you know, the the one woman who worked on a commercial with Jared and was like, oh, yeah.
01:07:27:24 - 01:07:29:01
Stacey
Oh yeah.
01:07:29:02 - 01:07:40:01
Dori
Yeah, he was so humble. He was so. And that seems to be a reoccurrence of a lot of people that are criminals. Like Jared, that they are the mild mannered ones.
01:07:40:03 - 01:07:48:20
Dr. John
Also note that Hannah and Christian, they said so articulately, you know, it's the ones who don't think about.
01:07:48:22 - 01:07:49:08
Stacey
Said he was.
01:07:49:08 - 01:08:00:23
Dr. John
Born. I think they said those exact words. They said it's the mild mannered ones that you have to watch out for. The victims, these two wonderful people that were victims of this whole thing, the.
01:08:01:00 - 01:08:09:14
Dori
Daughters of Angela, the mother that wanted to have sex with their daughters. The daughter spoke in the documentary and yes, are wonderful.
01:08:09:16 - 01:08:14:05
Dr. John
Yeah. They were they're just wonderful people. And, they survived this.
01:08:14:07 - 01:08:16:21
Stacey
Just got a call. I'm so sorry.
01:08:16:23 - 01:08:19:15
Dori
Well, we've got to wrap up anyway, I feel like I need to go to.
01:08:19:21 - 01:08:19:23
Stacey
But.
01:08:20:01 - 01:08:24:08
Dori
I. Anyway, this just grosses me out so much, I guess.
01:08:24:11 - 01:08:48:15
Stacey
One more thing. Night. Oh, I know, it's gross. I want to say one more thing. Can we collectively, as a society, stop worrying about ourselves and our reputations and our companies reputations and money, money, money, money and stop defending people. Stop giving them a pass. Stop giving them immunity. This is disgusting. And it's so rampant now.
01:08:48:15 - 01:08:54:23
Stacey
I mean, every day I open my phone and I'm seeing there's another fucking pedophile.
01:08:55:00 - 01:08:56:16
Dr. John
And I say something and I'm so glad.
01:08:56:18 - 01:08:57:12
Stacey
Mad about it.
01:08:57:16 - 01:09:34:16
Dr. John
I'm so glad you open this door, Stacy, because there's something you both said early on that I wanted remark about it, and it's probably going to be controversial, but it's absolutely true. When we talked about that denial early on and why denial happens in our world about hurting kids, you know, we still haven't progressed as a society, as a world where we value children, you know, children have you know, children are so neglected, you know, they're you know, it's it's it's so, you know, it's almost like we don't we don't care.
01:09:34:18 - 01:09:42:17
Dori
And and it's about the birth of the it's about the birth and not about true child care.
01:09:42:17 - 01:09:44:09
Stacey
Yeah. I mean, if you really.
01:09:44:11 - 01:09:46:11
Dori
Well just dive. Right.
01:09:46:11 - 01:10:06:03
Stacey
And you're then you are pro every child. And no matter what color their skin, whether they're an immigrant or whatever. But to say that you're pro-life and then abuse children is a complete oxymoron. And I'm sick of hearing about it with you, with all of them. I mean, if you if you think about all these things we've covered, it's across the board.
01:10:06:05 - 01:10:06:09
Dori
And.
01:10:06:13 - 01:10:08:18
Stacey
It's and it's in our Congress.
01:10:08:20 - 01:10:27:17
Dr. John
And you're right. I mean, I think Dorry said it's about the birth. Oh, I'm a mother. Yeah, we can get into that. I would love to get into that. In another episode where we talk about how, you know, these teenage kids in the in the ghetto, you know, they get this secondary gain out of. I'm a mom. Look at this little baby.
01:10:27:17 - 01:10:41:08
Dr. John
You know, it's like you're 14 years old and you have a child. What damage are you doing to that human, wonderful creature? By bringing me into the world of of. It's going to be a mess. It's going to be what?
01:10:41:10 - 01:11:10:13
Dori
Well, it's not only just financially poor areas, but also in the in religious cults as well. Right. Making, the young children having birth. And again, this is another tangent. So I don't want to go down the rabbit hole. But yes. So yeah, I think we, I, I do think we do a good job and just our anger, collective anger about all this and not following the money, I think is,
01:11:10:15 - 01:11:34:16
Stacey
Yeah. I mean, that is key. It's all about money. And let's stop. Protect it. Let's stop punishing the victims of the crimes. Yeah, we keep punishing and shaming victims. The up thing is, or even the Duggar victims, we shame them. We we punish them. And even the religion themselves, they are more, they care more about protecting the pedophile.
01:11:34:18 - 01:11:42:12
Stacey
And then blaming the other one because it's their fault. And this happens a lot. I've been reading about it constantly. Stop blaming victims.
01:11:42:18 - 01:11:49:09
Dr. John
Look it in this story. The Rochelle. What was her last name? Rochelle.
01:11:49:10 - 01:11:52:21
Stacey
Herman. Herman Herman. Herman.
01:11:52:23 - 01:12:01:07
Dr. John
How her life was so damaged by by doing something noble and right of trying to.
01:12:01:09 - 01:12:02:06
Stacey
She's a victim.
01:12:02:12 - 01:12:26:00
Dr. John
Girard. To to justice and justice. Her life was crushed. Her kids life with course and. Oh, this is so important. And I want to get back to Stacy said this, that the whole idea of telling your children the truth. And I think this is a super lesson coming out of our podcast today for the audience. But let me amplify what Stacy said.
01:12:26:02 - 01:12:52:16
Dr. John
If we don't tell kids the truth, what happens is they're left to their own mental devices and often they create fantasies of what's going on. By fantasy, I mean their own fanciful notion of what's going on, their own explanation. Kids crave explanation. They want to know what's going on. So if you don't give them the facts, then they create all these the stories, all these ideas.
01:12:52:18 - 01:13:19:03
Dr. John
And you know what often happens is that they become the center of those notions, meaning they blame themselves for what's happening. Yeah, I'm the one. And this happens in divorce cases all the time. It must be me. I must have caused this because my parents can't get along and and so that's an absolutely important point. Be proud.
01:13:19:03 - 01:13:24:03
Stacey
Of yourself for teaching me that lesson. I need to be a lot.
01:13:24:05 - 01:13:26:14
Dr. John
Scratch my nails on my my first year.
01:13:26:14 - 01:13:30:01
Dori
I feel like we could do another hour of this, but I do have to go.
01:13:30:03 - 01:13:36:18
Unknown
Oh. They.
01:13:36:20 - 01:13:50:22
Stacey
If you love our podcast, consider donating any amount to buy me a coffee.com/pad candy. Every bit helps us keep creating the true crime cult and pop culture stories you can't stop listening to.
01:13:50:24 - 01:13:53:15
Dr. John
So people can buy us a cup of coffee.
01:13:53:17 - 01:13:55:04
Stacey/Dori
Thanks so much for listening.
01:13:55:06 - 01:13:58:15
Stacey/Dori
Our theme music is written and performed by Midnight Current.
01:13:58:17 - 01:14:16:15
Stacey/Dori
Check out more of their work on SoundCloud. For more about us and to catch up on every episode of pod Candy, head over to pod Candy podcast.com. You can also find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time!
01:14:16:17 - 01:14:20:10
Speaker 1
Candy.
01:14:20:12 - 01:14:33:06
Unknown
I.
01:14:33:08 - 01:14:35:06
Unknown
Really?