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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
Neil Kelders v1
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Julie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, conversations about leadership, culture, wellbeing, and how we create schools where people can truly thrive. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Neil Kelders. Neil is a lived experience, future-focused mental health coach, speaker, and NSPCC Lived Experience Advocate in the UK.
Having shared his 21-year journey through depression and recovery on international stages, he now helps organizations, parents, and teens move from helplessness to hope. He delivers practical sessions in schools, workplaces, and communities, equipping students, parents, and staff with clear tools to navigate anxiety, pressure, avoidance patterns, and resilience.
He works with young people and families across Ireland, the UK, Canada, and Cyprus. Neil combines real-world experience with forward-thinking coaching tools to help people move from awareness to action, building resilience, clarity, and lasting change both at work and at [00:01:00] home. He's spoken for World Health Organisation, Mental Health Europe, and the governments of Ireland and the UK, supporting thousands to manage pressure and reconnect with purpose.
Whilst this conversation covers some really difficult themes, Neil approaches the conversation with such openness and honesty in the hope that we can all learn from his story, either as individuals or those in the role of supporting children and young people. During the episode, we talk about Neil's book, The Other Side, which covers themes of depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation, with a particular focus on why men find it so difficult to just talk, as well as exploring some themes of hope and practical steps to recovery.
Just a quick heads-up before we start, this episode touches on some sensitive topics, so do take care whilst listening. There are links in the show notes should you be affected by this episode.
Neil, [00:02:00] hello
Neil: Hello. How are you, Julie?
Julie: I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for joining me. How are you?
Neil: Good now. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this chat.
Julie: Yeah, brilliant. Great. So we're here today, Neil, um, really to talk about your story, to talk about your book, The Other Side, and just, you know, thanks so much for taking the time, and to turn up and have, I know, what's gonna be a really honest, authentic conversation.
'Cause you and I have had a, a chat previously and, you know, I know that you're really keen to make sure that you do present as a, a kind of, your story as it is. And, and some parts are maybe difficult to hear and difficult to listen to. Um, but I know that you think it's really important to kind of tell that story.
So that's what today is all about. So your book, The Other Side: A Memoir of Hope in the Midst of Depression, um, it's really honest. It touches on lots of subjects, on [00:03:00] depression, on anxiety, on alcohol use, on suicide ideation, but also it's a story of kind of hope and practical recovery, isn't it? So I'd like to kinda dive straight in really, and I'd like to take you back to kind of your teens and your 20s and would it be fair to say that most people wouldn't have known you were struggling?
Neil: Oh, totally. And I, I think this comes to light just jumping forward 20 years later when I did reveal about my mental health and people said, "No, not you. Couldn't be you. Not you, Neil. You couldn't be struggling." Because I was very much the clown of the class, the funny guy, having the laugh, one of the lads, very sporty, so playing Irish football and then playing, do- don't kill me for this, playing soccer, uh, soccer , uh, playing football.
You know, very sporty, into all sports, out with the lads. You know, going out at nighttime, sneaking a few beers when you're younger, all that kind of thing. And for [00:04:00] me then to say I was struggling with mental health was a massive shock, 'cause I was the one that people, made people laugh. I was the fool in a sense, um, the joker, the jester that people would turn to to, you know, pick up their day.
But also at a young age, I was the person that people would talk to about, you know, their girlfriends or issues that they had, and that happened from a very young age. So I was a good listener, and I could give a little bit of advice as well. And little did they know that I was struggling inside very much, as in it wasn't just depression, it wasn't just anxiety.
It was thinking about suicide. And the thinking about suicide wasn't once a day, it was countless times a day. Shoot forward again 20 years when my, uh, went to a counselor eventually, a psycholog- psychiatrist, and she said, "No, Neil, not everybody thinks this, thinks about suicide." It was so ingrained in my psyche that I thought, you know, this is just a natural process of your thought during the day [00:05:00] And that continued from, I always say when I was 15, because I label 15 as my age because I remember writing in one of my big science books, real big science book, wasn't studying, supposed to study, but I was writing suicide in fancy, uh, writing on the, on the book.
And I must've been doing that for a reason. You know, you don't just come up writing that countless times a day. I do believe it started before that, but that's the, the timeframe I put on at 15, at 15. So this bubbly character, one of the lads, very social, out, out all day playing sports, you know, um, hanging out with friends, was struggling inside.
And looking back on it, I probably wasn't the only one.
Julie: Yeah. Do you think you had any sort of conscious awareness, if that makes sense? Like, were you aware that, like, you were presenting this image to the outside world, but internally it didn't match that? It- Was that a conscious [00:06:00] awareness, or do you think that just developed over time where you became more conscious of that?
Neil: I, I think it developed, and then I became more conscious of it probably as well. Because when I was younger, our father left when I was 10, so I think I created this, you know, had to w- I'd go on a Sunday to lis- uh, talk to my father once a week on the phone, and then I'd go out and play with friends. So I had to put this mask on that I wasn't upset from the conversation and missing my dad, and I'd have to put this mask on, just go to play, kicking a ball about in our, in our estate.
You know what I mean? So definitely I, I was conscious of putting this f- facade on, this mask, so that people wouldn't see. And also, when you grow up in a small town as well, you don't want people to know your business as well. You don't want to stand out as such. So I didn't want to do that. Then as I got older, I suppose in my teens, I did realize that, you know, that why...
My, my thinking was, "Why can't I just be normal? Why can't I just be normal?" And sure, what, what is normal? What is normal? Can anyone tell me? But that was my thinking, "Why, why can't [00:07:00] I be normal? Why can't I just be like everybody else?" And then eventually it became, "Maybe I'm not supposed to be like other people.
Maybe this life isn't for me." That's how the, the, the thought process, uh, went. So I think when I went to settings, into school, if I was low going into school, I perked up and was the class clown. You know, it would come out in other ways, in aggression in school, maybe anger as well, fighting someone, frustration.
So I did hide it in different ways to be strong and, uh, you know, showing my masculinity, but I wasn't understanding it. I didn't understand what was happening.
Julie: And you'd obviously built up such a toolbox of ways to mask and to distract, I suppose, from your internal, if you were kind of doing the sports and, and kind of getting out there and, as you say, you'd learned to put your game face on, hadn't you?
Neil: Exactly. Like, I suppose- Back then it wasn't, I didn't see it as a toolbox, but now it is very much a toolbox [00:08:00] because when I work with people, I say, you know, "Being active, taking action is key. That's the biggest thing you can do to help yourself. The hardest thing you can do, the hardest jump to get off the couch or do something is to take action, but action is the only way we really can help ourselves."
Little did I know that being sporty and stuff was helping me in a sense. It had given me a bit of a purpose. I loved sports. I loved going out afterwards. The, I loved the, the before, the training, the middle of the game, and then the afterwards, the social life of it. So that did help me, and I suppose looking back on it, it, it saved my life in a sense because I still had those thoughts of suicide all the time.
So when I went behind closed doors into my bedroom And again, my family would've seen maybe just a, a grumpy teen, but behind that, there was more, more to it, more depth to it. And when I was w- alone with my thoughts, I was really alone, really isolated, and not knowing what to do.
Julie: Did alcohol become part [00:09:00] of that solution?
Neil: Yeah, and I write that in the book. I, I thought it was very important. And, and coming from Ireland, uh, people have a perception saying that, a- a- and, and in the UK, alcohol is a big part of our life, and it, it's, it's a part of celebrations and it's a part of many events we take part in. We were suc- successful at sports, so naturally we, at a young age, would have alcohol after.
We would sneak it to celebrate our events. So that was just a natural thing. Binge drinking was natural, you know, at, at our age group. Then I realized, I started to realize kind of in my 20s that I could stay out for three days drinking. I did one... On one occasion, I literally wore the same gray jumper, uh, these cord- corduroy pants that were in fashion at the time, and, uh, don't judge me, don't judge me.
Julie: I love cord. And,
Neil: and literally, so I went out with my friends. They got drunk and [00:10:00] went home. I kept going, met another group of friends, kept going, stayed overnight. We own- had friends that owned a bar, would stay there, would go out in the morning, continued on. I always looked, people would always have said to me, "Gee, you don't look drunk.
You're not drunk." And I sure wouldn't remember a thing that's happening, but I always ha- could be perceived as, as sober, you know? Then eventually it kinda hit me that, "Why can't I... Okay, not getting drunk isn't a great idea, but why can't I just have enough and go home?" And it played on my mind, and I knew I was doing that to escape my thoughts, totally, without question.
But of course, when I came off that high of drink and alcohol, there was very much the lows, lower than the lows I was having, and for an extended period. And I, and you don't sleep. Your thoughts are worse. You wonder then what you did on your night out as well, so you're adding fuel to the fire. So it's, it's all these, uh, emotions that you don't know how to process, and there's anger, there's frustration, there's [00:11:00] lowness, there's anxiety then on top of that.
And then, of course, my suicidal thoughts would raise their heads again I can't keep going on like this. I can't keep doing this. Why can't I be normal?
Julie: So you said, you know, that friends didn't know how you're feeling, and we hear a lot of messaging, don't we? Now, I think you cover this in your book around just talk when it comes to mental health.
Like, that is the message. Just talk, chat to your mates, you know? But from your experience, why isn't it that simple?
Neil: It is the hardest thing you will ever do. It is incredibly hard, and I mention this in my talks and workshops all the time. It is very easy for us to sit here and say, "Just talk about your problems."
First of all, I'm talking about something I probably don't really understand. I don't understand why I'm struggling. I don't understand why it's me, why no one else is, as, uh, my perception is. And so you're telling me to talk, talk about something I don't know. But then, if I talk to someone, [00:12:00] I'm probably talking to someone that won't understand at all what I'm speaking about because maybe they haven't struggled at all.
The fear is, if there's a miscommunication and my opening up doesn't land right with that person, that may be my one chance. I call it my get out of jail card. That might be, like, if that doesn't work, talking doesn't work, then sure there's no point and I won't talk again. So that happened to me. The first time I opened up was in 2014, and I can go into detail about that later.
But the idea was I spoke for the first time after 21 years. 21 years, and trust me, when I spoke, it was like 21 years of relief. You know what I mean? A weight off my shoulder, and I felt quite good. And I was actually c- I ca- called into my sister-in-law in Dublin, and she was making a coffee. We're having a coffee, and I, what I literally said...
I remember walking into the house, and the kitchen is there, and I could smell the coffee, and I look out to the backyard and double [00:13:00] doors out to their backyard. And, and my o- eldest brother and my sister-in-law have four kids, and I'm very close to them, and out in the back I could see a trampoline, a basketball net, football goals, where I would spend beautiful time with my nieces and nephews.
And th- this day when I, morning when I'd walked in, it was a beautiful day outside. It was April. It's, it's 12 years. Um, it, it's, it's April. It was April, and for some reason, I just said, "I can't do this anymore." And my sister-in-law is like, "Oh, is work hard or, you know, what's going on or..." And I said, "I have to die."
And I can just imagine the emotion she had, like, "What the he- what, what, what?" And so I kind of explained it to her that she has four kids, and they're good Irish names, Saoirse, Caoimhe, Patrick, and Liam. And I went through each one. Saoirse's my goddaughter, and I said, "Even though I won't see her at her deb's," or prom I think you might call it i- in the UK, um, uh, that I won't see her going to [00:14:00] that or her end of year exam results, I have to go.
Caoimhe's big into gymnastics, and she would always be showing me m- moves and jumping on top of me. Even though she wouldn't ever do that again and miss me, I'll have to go. Patrick and Liam, big Liverpool fans like myself. I know you're from Newcastle, so don't take it against me. But we would sit down with my brother, and we'd watch the games on the couch together.
Even though I'd be missing on that couch, watching the game with them, and they would miss me, the want to die was far greater than the need to stay. And I said this to her, and as I said, the weight flew off my shoulders. I was like, "Well, this is amazing. Is this all I needed to do? Oh my God, this is simple.
Oh my God, 21 years just to do this." And I literally said to her, um, "I've got a meeting now, so I gotta go." And she's like, "What? What? N- what, what?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, I, I've gotta shoot off. Oh yeah, don't tell my brother." She's like, "What?" So she said, "Please come back." I had to go to a meeting. I did, and I eventually came back.
And, [00:15:00] um, I came back, and I knocked on the ref- big black door with a window in it, and then eventually I could see my brother coming towards me. And my brother came towards me, and I was like, "Oh my God, here we go. He's gonna tell me what to do, try to fix everything, come up with solutions." That's not what I needed at that moment in time because when you talk, you don't want people to fix you.
You want people to listen and be there for you and try to show a little understanding. That's it. Fixing, if you come up with solutions to me straight away, I'll be overwhelmed, and I'll... This can't happen. That's, that won't work. What are you doing? So my brother opened the door, and probably the greatest moment of my life happened.
He's 10 years older than me. I look up to him. All he did is called me in, and he hugged me And it was that hug, you know, where your head goes on the shoulder. It was like... And I, I had a thought, "Maybe I could be okay. Maybe things will be okay." And that's all it needed. And why I spoke to my sister-in-law rather than my brother is, I [00:16:00] think, due to emotional safety.
Because looking at my brother, 10 years older, I look up to him. We're men, we don't hug, we don't w- do whatever. I didn't want to seem vulnerable to him. I've never seen him vulnerable. He's always been the strong one in our family since our dad left. He was the... You know, so I looked up to him. I didn't want to show weakness either.
He's, he never, has never shown it to me, so I don't know what level of weakness or vulnerability I could show. And my sister-in-law, I've known for a long time. She was the right person at that moment because she listened, she didn't interrupt, she didn't come up with ideas. She let me talk. She, uh, w- I c- could see she wasn't judging me.
She was just there for me at that moment in time. So that was the perfect combination. But then, so we, we went and we had a few action. We did a couple of things, but what I'm talking about, uh, when I was saying about talking is very difficult. I talked, we went and did some things, got me to meet a psychiatrist, [00:17:00] go to Pieta House in Ireland, which it helps.
We did a few things, but a couple of weeks later, my brother, we had met, and he goes, "Hey, how are you doing?" And I said the good old Irish saying, we say, "I'm grand. I'm fine." But I wasn't. I was down, as low as I'd ever been again, struggling again. But I didn't want to tell him because I said, "I've already told them once.
I don't want to burden them again, and it mightn't have worked. I don't think it works talking. It didn't help me. What's the point? And I don't think they want to hear me be negative and down in the dumps again and again and again. They have their own life to, to contend with." So I didn't speak again until later.
So talking is brilliant. Talking is essential, but you have to realize that the person struggling may not be the one to initiate the conversation, so it's up to us to initiate the conversation. And I spoke to someone about [00:18:00] this recently. I do workshops around the UK and Ireland for parents, and a friend of mine in my hometown, a businessman, gave us a venue.
So w- we make it a community event so the f- community gets involved. Gave us a premise, put on teas and coffees. Brilliant. He loved the event. He was there, "Oh my God, I'm gonna promote you. We're gonna get this going." Unfortunately, that beautiful person took his life recently. Smiley, happy. He knew I was there strugg- you know, I've t- been through my struggle, but he still took his life.
And That shows you that talking even to people you know have struggled is still a very difficult step, because you're admitting to yourself that you think you're weak, and weak is the wrong word. You think you, strength is, is silence is strength. It's not. Vulnerability is strength. Honesty is strength.
But I was asked by someone, "Why didn't he open up? Why didn't he talk to you?" Because it's so difficult to do [00:19:00] that. He was a businessman seen, seen in his community as a strong community member. For him to open up would've been, you know, for him would've been devastating, I think, to, to open up. But he should've, and we all know many people like that in those situations.
I have a, a childhood friend and my cousin didn't open up either, and didn't know they were struggling. So it's for us, I gave advice to this person, it's for us to try and see what's wrong with people, even if we don't know. And what we lose is when we wake up in the morning, "We'll see you later," "I'll see you after work," "I'll talk to you later."
We don't say, "Hey, how's it going? How was your day?" Uh, any news. Um, in my workshops, I do a little thing called high-low buffalo. So I tell something high among my day, low, a low among my day, and something that surprised me is the buffalo. So what that does, it just opens up little conversations. You could do that with your partner.
But we don't do that. We don't check in with y- each other [00:20:00] as we should, as in stand there, look at each other, and, and take each other in. So talking is very difficult. It is essential, but maybe it has to be a two-way communication. It has to be coming from both sides.
Julie: Neil, honestly, there was so much in there and so kind of tied in with a lot of my thoughts there.
I suppose one of my questions was gonna be why your sister-in-law, which I feel like you answered. And I suppose that maybes is part of the wider kind of advice you'd give to kind of... It, it... People don't necessarily confide in the person that's closest to them. It's maybes. Would that be right? So,
Neil: yeah. So, uh, and a big thing in the, in the workshops I do with parents is, um, because parents, family members, I feel, want to fix everything.
I wanna fix everything for my nieces and nephews or whoever's around me, right? But that's not, that's not your role because that allows us to be open for guilt and shame and embarrassment if we can't do it, and we walk on eggshells as well. [00:21:00] So it's, it's not about fixing. Teens won't go to their parents first.
They won't. There's research out there. They will go to their peers. They'll chat to their peers if they can. Then they'll go to a trusted adult outside of that, and then they'll go to their parents. And why I believe they don't go to parents, like I didn't go to my brother, is because we don't sh- it's about emotional safety, and emotional safety is the child isn't sure how much they can tell or what they can open up about to the person.
So in schools, of course, like my relationship with teachers would have been teacher-student. Not a hope would I to open up a- about my struggles to a teacher. But these days, I, I've worked in schools now, and I see that it's a different dynamic. It's nearly a buddy system in a sense, so young people would, I think, I hope, m- be more likely to open up, and I know they have So for me, it's, it's about So parents and family members, you need to be okay that the person may not speak to you, but they may speak to someone else.
[00:22:00] As long as they're speaking is the key. It's if you show vulnerability, if you, even simple things about, "You know, I had a stressful day today. I felt really frustrated. Um, I felt a little down today." Things like that, that opens up this idea that kids or, or family members will become more emotionally safe.
They become more aware because they mirror us at the end of the day. Teens mirror us. Kids mirror us. If they see we're strong, we don't talk about something, and we move on, they will do the same thing. But if they see us opening up, they will open up more.
Julie: And I think going back to what you said about why you hadn't told your brother, and you said something interesting there.
Like, you, you obviously had that connection with your brother after you'd initially told your sister-in-law, but then when you met a couple of weeks later, it was about burdening, wasn't it? And that we didn't wanna put something else on somebody we really cared about. So I think there's something in that as well, isn't there?
And, and maybe that comes into us as adults as to why adults maybe find it difficult to [00:23:00] talk, because they don't want to put that burden on somebody they care about.
Neil: And especially life is busier now. We always hear, "Oh, it's so busy now, and it's crazy. It's crazy busy, and we're do- doing this, that, and the other."
So now it's more likely that we don't want to burden anyone 'cause everybody has their own burdens. I used to just hear myself, my thoughts in my head, and I said, "Jeez, you're just such a whine. You are s-" Like, I would annoy myself with the thoughts, you know? "You're so negative. Like, who could put up with you?"
And so if I was thinking that, I was thinking, "I can't share that with anybody else," because they would think the same thing, right? You know, who would want to listen to me going on and be low and gloomy all the time? But I always say this, and unfortunately, I have to say it because I've had people close to me take their lives- And that's the extreme, is that y- the people that love you would rather hear that, as I call it, that whine, that struggle, that whatever negative thoughts day in, day out, than never [00:24:00] get the chance to hear it or help you.
They would ra- if you get what I'm saying. They would rather be in a position to hear that and be some sort of maybe some part of some solution for you, some support for you, rather than never hear that, never get the chance. They deserve that chance to help you as well, and you deserve the chance to move on.
You are not a burden. Life is full of struggles. Unfortunately, a lot of us find the struggles that we don't want. So for example, Julie, you have kids?
Julie: I do, two.
Neil: Yeah, a- and at times it's a struggle, right?
Julie: Oh, yeah. Right at the minute, A-levels are going on.
Neil: Oh, there you go. But it's a struggle you wouldn't give up for the world, right?
Julie: Yeah.
Neil: Yeah. But there are struggles we take on. Sometimes it's in the wrong job, or sometimes it's in the wrong relationship or whatever, and we continue on that path 'cause we believe we have to, and that gets the better of us. Life is always gonna be full of struggles, but find the struggle that is for you.
That's, that's something I've learnt for myself. And you're not a burden. [00:25:00] People are there. People want to listen. I've found that, and you'll find it fr- you'll find people that you never even thought of will be the person that will help you and listen. I never even thought my sister-in-law would've been that person.
I naturally thought it would've been my immediate family, as in my, my siblings, but it wasn't. It, it came somewhere else, from somewhere else, and thankfully it did because I'm here talking to you today.
Julie: Thank you, Neil. Can I just go back to this idea of masculinity? So obviously you are a male talking about this topic, and we know that suicide rates are higher for men, um, and young men.
Um, and whilst I feel like this book and your voice is not exclusively about males' mental health, I don't think it is at all, there is that theme, isn't it, about the messages that people receive around masculinity and emotion?
Neil: Yeah.
Julie: You know, any thoughts about that?
Neil: Yeah, cer- the, the, the [00:26:00] message we get from, from bo- being a boy to a man is, "Be strong.
Don't cry. Don't be soft." You know? "Don't burden anyone. Just get on and move on and get over it." You know, that kinda thing. You know, I played sports, and that was very much what we were taught i- i- in, in the sporting, um, arena. You know, "Don't show your opponent any weakness." And the problem is that a lot of us carry that off the pitch as well into real life.
We hide the pain. We hide our sadness out of fear, and we struggle. We struggle inside. And it, you know, it comes out in, uh, our emotions will come out in different ways then anger, alcohol, drinking, isolation, um, you name it, things like that, explosive frustration. So I, I remember when I was 15, I was s- te- telling you earlier about this science book I had, and I wrote suicide.
And one of my siblings saw [00:27:00] the... Saw, must have gone through my book and saw it, and he had a go at me and ca- said, told me to stop being stupid. And I'm, this isn't to blame him, because he was a teenager as well, but that st- s- kind of stayed with me, you know. It teaches us, it taught me very quickly that keep your pain in, say nothing, you know, and you learn to keep it in.
So that, that kind of, you know, stayed with me. And I, I actually have another example, uh, in a working sect- if you don't mind. It would, in a working sector, I had a bit of an issue, this is many years ago, in, in a work, and it was a female boss and myself or whatever, but I was told in the HR meeting, "If you were two men, you would just box the heads off each other."
Julie: Wow. Okay?
Neil: Right. So I was told that. So then I'm struggling. No one knows I'm struggling. That, the, the way I think about things and analyze things, that tells me, "Say nothing. Keep your mouth shut," you know? And, a- it tells you also that men deal with [00:28:00] their emotions through aggression or silence. Yeah? Not honest communication.
I was trying to be open and honest in that setting. Nah, didn't work, you know? And then you, you did mention talking before, and, and this is, goes in hand with masculinity. So when I revealed about my mental health after... So I remembered the, I, I said I was gonna post it on social media because I w- I said, "I hid behind a mask for 21 years, and my name, when, when I'm booked for work or whatever, Neil Kelders shows up.
That's it. Not, not hiding behind anything." I said, "I'm never hiding again behind a mask. This is who I am. My book is a tell-all." And I remember I did a post, and I s- I said, "Oh, geez, I can't do this", and I was, you know, um-ing and ah-ing to release it. And then, uh, about 2:00 in the morning, "Ah, sure I release it then.
No one will see it, and I can sleep." And you know when you wake up, uh, uh, the next morning and you know something has happened and you ca- this big gasp. And I was there, "Oh my God, no, [00:29:00] take it down. Oh, no. What? What?" And then I looked, and I got loads of messages, really amazing, positive messages. I got messages from the USA, Canada, uh, the UK, Ireland, everywhere.
Messages about, "This is amazing. Didn't know you were struggling. Oh my God. Well, I struggle, too." And a lot of people opened up straight away. But then I got an email, and I got an email from an anonymous person, and I won't say the bad word in it, but what it literally said, "Go away and kill yourself." Okay?
So I did the hardest thing ever. I spoke I changed my thinking of masculinity. I became vulnerable because me strength is vulnerability and honesty. And then when I did that, someone comes back at me and says, "Go and kill yourself." And when you talk, you are vulnerable to this. You are vulnerable to other people's insights and opinions and what they believe.
But, [00:30:00] and my, where did my focus go? My focus went not on all the beautiful messages I got, it went on that one message that was turning me But eventually, I, I, I was getting low. I was becoming low, and I was anxious, and I was depressed, and I was there, "This person is telling the truth. The others are lying to me.
This person, this person is the only one that has ... to tell me the truth." And I, I was there, but then I said, "No, no." I realized, no, this person has something, issues themselves or whatever, and I pity that person because if they ever have stru- someone struggling in their life, they will be of no support to that person whatsoever.
So I realized that I put myself out there. I'm open to vulnerability, but I would rather have done that and save myself rather than listen to what other people have to say. And again, I had to dig deep and not go back into my masculinity of silence and anger and suppression. I, I [00:31:00] needed to embrace vulnerability, and I have done ever since, you know?
So for men, we need environments that are emotionally safe for us to speak, and I think work settings and, uh, family settings can do that by opening up themselves. So in work, a leader can open up about issues they've had or, or struggles they've had, be vulnerable. And at home, parents can be vulnerable or siblings be vulnerable, and allow that opportunity for your, the person in your life who you may not know is struggling to open up to you.
Julie: Because you can hear in that kind of, you know, what you've just said there, you can hear what's shut you down over the years. Yeah. Those experiences that shut you down as well as that kind of, as you say, that image of, of masculinity and what it means to be- Yeah ... a man and, and that if somebody's listening as, you know, as part of the supporting cast, it's that providing that psychological safety, that vulnerability- Yeah
that [00:32:00] honesty and authenticity themselves- Yeah ... can be encouraging to other people to open up.
Neil: And I don't think, to be honest, I don't think it's masculinity is the issue. I think it's, it's when strength gets confused with silence.
Julie: Definitely. There were some interesting ... Um, read Caitlin Moran's book. I love Caitlin Moran.
She, she kind of, um, is a feminist writer, and she talks about women, and she talks about girls. But she, um, uh, she wrote a book a few years back called What About Men? And in it she explores this idea of the tools that we give to boys and, and young men versus the tools that we give to girls and young women, and she kind of, she grew up like me in the '70s and '80s, and she was talking about even, like, problem pages for girls and, you know, that encouragement to share problems and have language and get that emotional literacy and that voice versus the literature that's available for boys and young men.
Like, there's no problem pages, you know, [00:33:00] within that, you know, you know, within those magazines. And that just really struck me, that I thought, "Yeah, how do we tool up, you know- young people to have these conversations,
Neil: uh- Th- that's it. Like, y- as you said, the problems page is for women. The men's problems page was the end of the bar stool.
You know what I mean? That was it, you know, having the pint. Yeah. But a big thing I do now myself, a lot of tools I do is, is writing. I do a th- tool called burning your thoughts, where you just write, write, don't think, write, write, and then you tear it up or you burn it and, and you let it go. And, uh, then it, there's journaling.
I do journaling as well. And it's the consistency of it i- is trying, but it, it does. Once you relieve your thoughts, it's, it's an amazing tool. Writing is an amazing tool for us, you know? And, and meditations and, and yoga and all those things were always geared towards women, uh, not men. And you know, like I do transcendental meditation now.
It's one of my tools. It took, it took me... I revealed about my mental health. For the first five years I said, "Meditation, [00:34:00] not for me. It's, it's, it's la-di-da, yeah, whatever. No way. I don't need that." And then I realized I, I changed my interpretation of what meditation is. Meditation is whatever I want it to be that helps me.
So I started off having a cup of coffee in the morning and people-watching quiet time for five, 10 minutes. That was it. That was my meditation. And then I progressed to looking at different things like kundalini yoga or, or mindfulness, and then I found tra- transcendental meditation because I wanted to be able to just sit there, I have a mantra that I say in my minds, um, in my head, and that's it.
And I couldn't meditate for five minutes. Now, I do 40 minutes twice a day. I love it. That's my f- most favorite time. When I wake up and before I go, uh, in the evenings, that's my favorite time for my quiet time. The silence, the quietness, and it allows the thoughts to come, and I don't ignore them, I allow them percolate, and then I send them off, and that's it.
So, a, I think we do need to think about different things like tools, as you were saying, journaling [00:35:00] for, for, for men as well, that they're all-inclusive. They're not just... The tools are important if they help you. They're not male or female.
Julie: Yeah. But I, but I do think, I think there is a kind of, there's a feminization of these tools- Yeah
for, for sure, from kind of websites and journals with purple butterflies on and, you know, ob- obviously. But you know, you know what I mean? Like, journaling is so powerful, as you say. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding as to what meditation is, and I think you're so right, that meditation can be anything you make it.
It's about changing your relationship with your thoughts. Yeah. And that's- Yeah ... the tool that you're learning. You know, you talked earlier about how when you read those messages, you know, the one that jumped out was the one that, like, uh, uh, you know, keyed into your negativity bias- Yeah ... and that's the one that was amplified.
So- Exactly. Yeah ... what meditation does is allows us to review those thoughts and decide- Yeah ... what we're then gonna do with them. We become the observer, don't we, [00:36:00] um- Exactly ... of our thoughts. So, yeah- Exactly ... I, you know, absolutely all over that. And I think the second half of your book, I think it's a nice time to come into that then.
So the first half almost i- is, as in my reading, was your story, um, and that sharing and that storytelling, which is so powerful. But then you talk about your kind of pathway forward, don't you? Um, and tools and things that have helped. You've got Neil's Notes all the way through, which kind of encourage people to, to pause or do something- Yeah
which, you know, makes it a very, rather than just a storytelling, it's that, "Why not try this? Have a go at this," which I think is great. So journalism, meditation, anything else? Any other kind of things that made a big difference?
Neil: I, I d- I suppose what fed into it as well was that I didn't get this thing of having a purpose in life.
I, it, it felt very restricting to me, restrictive. I was there, "Okay, I have one purpose, so, like when I'm 18, I need to find that purpose and do it for the rest of my [00:37:00] life, and that's it, and, and follow that?" And I explore that and I, you know, 'cause like I studied sports science for four years, and then I studied law for four years, and I was there, and now I don't do anything in those areas.
You know? It's, um, and I think we are set to be funneled in to do s- one thing kind of for, for life, and I realize life is for exploring, so I, I, I decided to live purposefully rather than have one purpose. So that means right now I'm working my passion now. I'm helping people with their mental health and their struggles, and I dipped into kind of acting, so I explored that.
And I dipped into other things, you know, uh, improv comedy. So I, I, I started to explore and do things purposefully for me and find ways, uh, better ways for me to live and what suited me, and not just go by what I believed society wanted me to do. Um, and I don't regret doing a sports science degree now and doing a law degree because it's built me where, the character I am today, and I [00:38:00] think that's what life is, exploring.
So I keep exploring, and it's not about just having the same tools or pathway all the time. Your pathway will move and, and bend and, and, uh, diverge, and it's about being okay with that So what I do is I started to challenge myself with get outside my comfort zone. So for a period of time when I revealed about my mental health, I stayed within a comfort zone because I needed that stability kind of to, to find myself and to, to be okay with myself.
And I got to a stage where I was there, I, I'm, I'm happy to be alive. I'm in a good place. I'm not as low. But then eventually I started finding myself dipping a bit again. I was there, "Why, what's, what's wrong? Everything's fine." Because I wasn't really living my life. I was staying in this comfort zone, so I needed to push boundaries, and that was me going to acting classes in groups of people every week, to going to improv comedy classes, to be put on stage to, to, to do an improv, uh, event, to going to the gym, which I used to hate.
I used to do my [00:39:00] own work, but training, but I'd go to the gym. So finding little ways to keep me active and get me out there, and I've realized that action is the key. To keep active, to keep yourself moving. So yeah, so I, I explored many things and I had many times when I was on a, a bus from Dublin City Center into, uh, into the city center and I hopped off and got back out again and went back to, the other way, 'cause I couldn't, the anxiety was too much.
So I explored it and I found ways for me to over- not overcome. I'll never use overcome depression or anxiety because I'm not God. No one can tell you that will happen. We'll have struggles down the line, but I found ways to manage the crap out of it. That's what I do and that's what I help people with.
It's not about overcoming, it's about managing, being aware of your triggers, when you're going through it, how to be able to bring it to a close maybe quicker and then move on with your day. That's the idea.
Julie: Who's this book for, Neil?
Neil: So initially it was for the people struggling, but what I realized is when I had many parents contacting me [00:40:00] and saying...
The first parent I had was from Canada actually, m- uh, messaging me and saying, "I am in my child's head. I now know what they're thinking. I know not to jump in straight away and to fix things. I can stand back and I can see where they're at, and then now I know how to approach them then, then, uh, to be more of a support."
So that, that's, it's, it is for people struggling, but I know when you're struggling the last thing you want to hear is someone that's gone through it and maybe come out a little bit the other side because you're in your struggles at that moment in time. So it is for people who are struggling, but very much it's for people that may have someone in their life who is struggling, that they can get a better understanding of what they're going through.
Julie: And I suppose that feeds into the work that you are doing in schools and in education settings and also in the community, um, that your storytelling isn't just for people who are- In a difficult [00:41:00] place, is it your, your storytelling is to help people who are in a, you know, a supportive role to understand as well.
Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit, um, about the work that you're doing in schools? I know I read, um, you made the BBC News, didn't you, about the, the work- Yeah, yeah ... that you did in the Ironman? Um- In the Ironman, yeah ... yeah. Tell us, tell us a little bit about that work that you're doing.
Neil: So I, I initially started off working with companies and doing workshops and consultancy and, uh, talks, and I still do that work.
But then I had, in Ireland, I had a psychiatrist connect with me to see if I could work with a young person and to do a bit of co- ... And I said, "Okay, what am I gonna do?" And I said, "What's missing?" I had a, I had a big think about it. Can I help this person? Are they at a stage where I can help them? So I created a coaching program initially, a future-focused coaching program.
So we're not like counseling, going back into your trauma, because I, I realized a lot of young people going into their traumas at counseling come out very low. And then the parents don't have a clue what's [00:42:00] happening within the session, and then there's a breakdown of communication until their next session, but there's no continuation of the, of the good work happening in the session at home.
So I did a future-focused, uh, coaching program where we look at, like, clarity, we look at courage, we look at a future plan, a little, uh, five-year plan for the young people, and their values, and, and things they wouldn't have looked at, focal points. And as we look to the future, traumas and blocks will arise, so we can deal with it in a more positive setting, if, i-in a more hopeful setting.
And with the coaching program, then I added a parents element to it, and that was that the parents, I do a call, I, I do their sessions once a week with the young person. They get little summaries of actions to take, and then the parents get a summary of the session, general sum-summary, and then the young person gets to add on top of that what personally they would like to ask, uh, add to the parent, let the parent know.
So the young person still gets agency, control over the session, but the parent is getting more of an idea of [00:43:00] what's happening. And I give them ideas how they can support for the week. So the idea is that the continuation happens at the, at the week. So that's why I developed that. I said, "Okay, that's a coaching program.
This is helping young people, and the parents are in the know now." Then young people weren't, didn't want to attend. They weren't ready. So I developed a coaching program for the parents, and that's working well because we look at stabilization, 'cause parents, I realized, are guilty, uh, feeling very guilty, uh, feeling shame, walking on eggshells, don't know what to do, and it's affecting their own mental health.
So I did a coaching program for them on how to work with their young person, how to stabilize, how to maybe challenge, when to challenge the young person safely. And so I decided to put on workshops for parents to help, you know, relieve them of their guilt and shame and embarrassment and to stop walking on eggshells and how to, uh, better the communication between them and the young person, because young people are shut down.
They're teenagers anyway, but if they're struggling, they ain't [00:44:00] gonna talk to you. So in the workshop, what we do is we remove that guilt. I tell my stories of being a young person, of, of connect, and I connect with the audience. So I often have parents saying, "Everything you said there, that's my young person.
That, that, that, that, that, exactly my young person." Oh, and then I've had, uh, parents come and say, "Thank you. You've just like... I'm not alone in this. I don't have to fix it. I don't have to jump on it, I have the, I have all the answers." Because I tell them, "You're doing this for the first time as well, right?
This is the first time you're at this age, being a parent at this age. You know, so you're living life. You're finding your way. You don't have to have the answers, but you be there as a support." And the workshops then give parents little tools that they can take home straight away To, to work with the young person, and that's very important.
So that workshop is all about relieving the guilt, uh, showing them they're not alone, seeing what their next steps they want to take, but giving them tools straightaway, a playbook straightaway that they can utilize with their young person a- and start the rehabilitation, [00:45:00] if you like, straightaway. Because we know CAMHS and all these services are inundated.
There's waiting lists. So what's the solution to that? Prevention, uh, helping educate and upskill the parents and maybe the teachers in school, et cetera. So you were on about, uh, the school setting. For me, I've ha- I had a school onto me, and they were there. You know, we've... Anxiety's massive in schools these days.
We know that. And, and young people sometimes are being homeschooled because they have so much anxiety they can't go into school. In my day, it was you get into school, that's it, that's it. You know? What? You're da- no. Shh. Get in. Deal with your issues. Off you go. Whereas now young people I see are very much allowed kind of take days off if they're not feeling up to the whatever.
Does that work in the long run? Is that beneficial for the young person? Who can tell? It, uh, maybe depends on the young person. But what we need is a culture shift within the schools, and I did this for a school in Ireland actually, that they had massive issues like everybody else, but they were doing very well with wellbeing.
Like, they were on top of it. But the world is just [00:46:00] getting too f- too, too quick, moving away too quickly. When we think we're there, it just keeps moving away from us. So I developed something, a culture week. So the idea is to work with the teachers and the staff, then work with the individual years or forms, whatever, uh, whatever age groups they are, and then work with the parents as well that week.
And all- so the idea is they're all kinda singing from the same hymn sheet. So you're changing the culture. So then the young people know that the, the teachers are more in the know maybe around mental health, might notice me more, might be able to support me better then, and it c- creates that emotional safety in school and at home as well.
So that's kinda the idea behind the culture week, because, yes, talks and people, you know, in, in companies and schools, we have once-off talks. We have once-off things. I'm not gonna knock them. They're beneficial. Because if you've a good speaker in or a good person delivering a workshop, they're going to get, you're going to learn something from them.
You're gonna upskill some way leaving there. You're gonna leave [00:47:00] maybe more empowered than before you, you went in. But for me, it has to be a culture shift. And I think if we can do that with schools in the education system, we are helping target the growing numbers of young people, and we also are targeting...
The biggest thing is some people will talk. I didn't for 21 years, and I know there are some people still not g- talking out there. Okay? So we need to still target those people. And how can we do that? By doing something like this, a culture week, where they're, uh, involved with maybe young people that are struggling in the class setting, and they're all learning the sel- same tools to help themselves Before, during, and after, uh, depressive episodes or anxiety or whatever
Julie: So in terms of anybody who might be listening, they can just get in touch with you, Neil, around kind of that culture week or those workshops.
Yeah. And that's something maybes you could explore, um, with schools 'cause it sounds, uh, really powerful and as you said, it's about creating [00:48:00] a culture that's emotionally safe where people can open up and talk, and that ultimately is, is kind of what you're trying to do here. People feel safe enough to talk and people feel like they know how to respond when somebody does talk.
Neil: Yeah. And a, a, a mentally healthy school culture is built through consistency, not isolated interventions. And it's also, we... Okay, we're helping the young people, we're helping the teachers as well, because they're human. They struggle, and they will struggle when they see... I, I had at a workshop, I had a person, a teacher come up the...
and they were giving up teaching, but after the workshop came up and said, "Neil, you've, uh, I know teaching is my purpose. I'm not leaving. I have to be there to help the young people." And but the teacher as well was struggling herself because of certain situations. So these workshops are there to help the school as a whole.
And the parents will struggle. It's to help the parents, the young person, and the team. It's a community effort and, you know, it's a culture change. That's it.
Julie: Neil, I think that the work you're doing is so [00:49:00] important, so necessary- Thank you ... so impactful. Obviously, we've got the book here if people want to go and buy the book.
Um, I'll make sure we put some links, but it's called The Other Side: A Memoir of Hope in the Midst of Depression by Neil Kelders. And, you know, I want to thank you really for your... I mean, I could listen to you talk all day, that your, your honesty, as I said, your authenticity, um, which is everything that I expected to have in this conversation today.
And you just make it feel, I don't, I don't wanna say easy, but i- in, in what you've broken down there, like the importance for people to open up, but the importance for everybody else to know how to hold space for people to open up, I think is, is what I'm taking from this conversation, which, which is really powerful, um, for, as you say, for us as parents, for us as teachers, as leaders, for the adults around the young people, but the adults in our lives as well, not just- Yeah
the young people. Yeah. I think-
Neil: That's it. 'Cause, like, I'm still in [00:50:00] the trenches with people, and that's why- Yeah ... w- my work, I believe that's why my work resonates with people, because I connect. When I have a young person, they, I always ask them, "What did you love about session?" I realize you've been there too.
And that's very important. I, I, you know, I'm in a good place, but there are times I dip a little and I know how to bring myself out and manage it. That's the difference now. That's the major difference now between me and, uh, 10, 15 years ago before I, I, I revealed about my mental health. That's the only difference, but I have to keep on top of it.
Like with our physical health, we have to keep on top with our mental health. What happens to us when we feel in a good place, we let the tools slide, okay? We can't do that. We have to keep on top of it because, as I said, it's the same as our physical health. You keep on top of that. You don't let that slide.
So just think about your mental health the same. And life is good. Like, I, I never thought I would say this, but, you know, my mental s- health struggles have had a positive effect on my life. I'm working my passion. If I [00:51:00] didn't have that struggle, I wouldn't be working this area right now. So I'm a lucky one.
Julie: Neil, thank you so much. Neil, we always ask one final question of our guests, so I want to go ahead and ask you the same question, um, which is, if you could suggest one kind thing that our listeners could go and do for themselves today, what would it be?
Neil: Do you know what I like to do? And I think a kind thing is I'm big on memories.
Uh, creating moments and then me- uh, we create moments because moments become memories, which are a tool I use for my mental health. So I like to go for, take five minutes for yourself, 10 minutes, a little walk, throw on your headphones, and put on that song that you remember that g- makes you feel good. So for me, for example, we used to be in Chicago in 1998, and a big song back then was Irish Goo Goo Dolls, and I love to put that on, and it reminds me of a, a beautiful memory, beautiful moment in my life.
So find that song from when you were younger, go for that walk, put on the headphones, and just walk with that [00:52:00] music until the song ends. And remember, let the memories float in of why that song associates with, with good, happy times.
Julie: That's gorgeous. And as a huge fan of music, I totally... And that's meditative as well, isn't it?
It's connecting to those emotions. Oh. Yeah, I love that. Neil, thank you so much for your time- No, thank you ... today, and yeah, as I say, just for your openness and your storytelling, which I am absolutely certain will be having a positive impact on so many people that you won't even hear about, that you won't even know.
Yeah. So thank you for sharing your voice. Thank you, Neil.
Neil: Julie, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.