Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.112)
Hi, Taina. Look at me, sitting in a new, if you're watching on YouTube, I have a new area I'm sitting in. And I love it because it showcases how similar our wallpapers are, which is my little reading nook that has become a bit of my office nook because I have a little like, the whole setup allows my dog to lay with me, which in a way that's more comfortable for both of us than when she tries to sit in my lap while I'm working at my desk. So this is
Taina Brown she/hers (00:02.368)
Hi.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:07.713)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's your reading corner, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:27.893)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:29.09)
becoming my primary office space, is like workspace, which is ridiculous. But anyway, the things we do for the dogs we love.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:36.969)
Yeah, yeah, change is good. know, little change in environment can procure some creativity.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:39.778)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:45.526)
Yeah, and also I'm in a place of wanting to have a lot of comfort and coziness and this little area feels more cozy than my desk. And I think to for a fun little segue into what we're talking about here, me trying to like, this is truthful that it is cozy, but also I was like, this might work to segue into what we're talking about because the world is on fire and heavy. And every day it feels like there is a new ton of bricks thrown at me.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:08.339)
Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:13.146)
And when I'm feeling that overwhelmed by everything that's happening, I'm just like, need, I just want to cocoon, but not in a way necessarily of like hiding, but just of like, like tending to myself, giving myself that like permission to feel, yeah. And I feel this like sort of safety in this little corner where I have a blanket and you know, and I'm in a comfy chair with a pillow. And so, yeah, I've just been trying to like, in a lot of ways think about how do I give myself that?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:20.531)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:25.556)
Mm hmm. A safe space.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:41.762)
like safety and care when I am dealing with boatloads of trauma, we all are.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:47.399)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My safe safety space is we purchased this recliner when we first bought our house almost a year ago. And for like years, my wife, Melo, has been like, I want a recliner, I want a recliner. And I just I'm just like, they're ugly, they're bulky, you know, like, I just don't want one. And when we moved in here, I was like, you know what?
we've been through it all, like let's get the recliner to like, so she can have this, like, you know, what she wants, like her heart's desire or whatever. And so I found this like love seat recliner on Target, which we won't talk about Target right now, but it was pre-DEI backlash, pre-Trump.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:34.69)
Yeah, was pre-DEI, I hope, the changes, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:40.776)
second term. yeah, and so was like, this would be great because we can both sit on it and we can watch movies together. And we do do that sometimes, but I've kind of taken it over as like my napping, laying down cozy chair. And so every time I like sit down and it's she's like, can I sit next to you? And I'm like, I was gonna lay down. No, you can't. So sometimes I feel bad, but not.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:03.086)
Funny enough, just now, right before this call, just confirmed on Marketplace and same deal with Facebook meta. There's just not a great replacement for Marketplace. Sadly, it took over Craigslist and now there's like, it's really the only way to sort of go about it. But anyway, all that to say, I just bought a recliner for this space because as much as I love this chair and I think it's so stylish and I really love the way it looks in the room.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:22.224)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:31.854)
And it is more comfortable in my office here. It's not the most comfortable. And now that I've been sitting here working, I'm like, oh, I think I have to get something different. It's a butter recliner and it's not the most attractive chair. But honestly, I'm like, I don't care because it was inexpensive. I'm paying like seventy five bucks for this recliner. And so that'll work for now. And I just I think it speaks to where so many of us are of like when we're in this state of overwhelm and sadness and like grief.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:39.697)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:48.528)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (04:00.87)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:01.922)
You like need ways to just really cope. Yeah, tend to yourself. So I have a feeling we're not alone. Like, I wonder if recliner sales are just going up in general right now.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:04.272)
to come up. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:11.291)
WAH!
Yeah, I think people are looking, at least people that I know, people in my circles are really looking for ways to cope right now. When they have the ability to slow down, I feel like so much is happening so fast that it feels like we're moving at the speed of light and there's no real time to just kind of process and absorb. yes, it's...
Becky Mollenkamp (04:41.44)
of course, is Biden's sign, this whole chalking off thing that the Trump administration's doing.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:45.492)
Yes, yes, definitely by design to keep us distracted and overwhelmed and not attuned to ways that we can like really fight back and resist. And so I thought it would, or we we discussed talking about grief today. And I think usually when we think about grief, you we think about loss, like the loss of a person of a life. And there are
so many facets to grief that we sometimes don't take or don't either don't take or don't really have the time to consider. And I think for a lot of us right now, we are grieving what could have been. We are grieving the beliefs or
ideas that we had about people that turned out to not be true, you know, for, terms of like the data on who voted for what, right? People who might have family members who just really voted against their best, their own best interests, but against, you know, people in their families as well, against the interests of people in their families. And I think there's a grief for
A world that we thought we were going to walk into on November 6th or November 7th here in the US that was just kind of snatched out from, it's like the rug just kind of like got pulled out from under us.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:31.126)
Yeah, well, I was just looking at like the definition of grief, because I agree, most people think of it as death. Like that's where we most often hear it when we hear about grief counseling, it's counseling, it's usually around the death of someone. But grief is just a emotional response to loss. And loss can look like a lot of things. And as you mentioned, it can look like the loss of a life you thought you would have a life that you thought you wanted, or even
this is always weird for people to a life that you didn't want, but that you knew, right? But it's still a loss. So a divorce, there's so much grief often around divorce. And it can be one of those things that gets people confused. Like, why am I like, I wanted this, especially if it's a divorce, you want it like, and it's for the best. And yet there's like all of the sadness and stuff that can come up. And it can be confusing because you're like, I wanted this thing. This is, this is the life I'm moving towards that I'm excited about. Why am I still dealing with this like,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:02.838)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (07:28.95)
loss when I are the sadness when I don't really feel like I'm losing partner I wanted or something, but it's a loss of the life that you knew, right? Like there are so many ways that loss shows up. I remember when I had my miscarriage and I was 10 weeks pregnant. I couldn't had no bump. didn't you know, I had I hadn't even seen the baby did but at that point the you know, the tissue was no longer viable. But like I hadn't really developed an emotional attachment.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:32.074)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:36.961)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:57.538)
to a human in any way. And I remember feeling like, why am I feeling so sad? I mean, it's sad that it happened, but like, didn't, it's not like, I never, didn't understand it because it was like this. Whereas my, when I had an abortion, I didn't have that same kind of feeling because it was, it was something I wanted, a choice I made that I wanted, which again, there's also grief that can happen there. But I couldn't understand, my mom was like, well, this, was a, you had already started to picture.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:59.456)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:15.968)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:27.852)
like this future with that was going to look different. And this is just about the loss of what that of that vision you had. And that's valid and real. And I think that that's the same thing with what's so many of us are experiencing right now is like, even if we because I have seen some people on social media, and I get the instinct to want to be like, I told you so or I knew or whatever like this.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:30.6)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:35.977)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:55.35)
sort of a bit of superiority attitude of like, well, I knew this was gonna happen or we told you like this whole kind of thing. And I get that. And yeah, I think you can know what's gonna happen and still be feeling grief, right? Like I knew Trump was gonna be sworn in. I had a feeling he might even win, right? Like I was still holding this hope that he wouldn't, but like I wasn't surprised by what's happened, but it doesn't mean I'm still not gonna feel grief, right? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (08:57.698)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:01.107)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:08.455)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:23.598)
It is a loss of a dream I have for this country and for how I, a loss of belief in people and choices that they might make and all of that. So like, well, I understand that instinct to kind of be like, we knew and what, like, get over yourselves is a big deal. Like, you knew it was going to happen. We all knew this was happen. We told you so. I think if we can think of this moment in time as grief and as loss, then the way you're showing up, how are
Taina Brown she/hers (09:48.667)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:53.032)
changes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:53.582)
sensitive is that to be like, yeah, well, you should have known. It's like saying, well, your dad's had cancer for months. Of course, you knew he was going to die. Like, get over it. I told you this was going to happen. Why are you so upset? Why are you so surprised? Maybe they're not surprised, but they're just grieving. And we need to be able to hold space for people in this moment. Even if our instinct, even if everything in us is wanting to be like, I knew it and I told you so and F you for not figuring that out. That's not an invitation into change.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:01.596)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:22.939)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:23.64)
And it's hard because I am the kind of person who's usually like, fuck everybody, like fuck Maggot, fuck anyone who doesn't agree with me. But there is a part of me that's like, these people are having buyer's remorse even. While I want to be like, what'd think was going to happen and fuck off. And there is that part of me. When I can reframe what's happening into this like grief place of, my gosh, they thought this was going to look a certain way. Maybe they should have known better, maybe they should have, but it doesn't. And they're grieving. if I treat, if I can meet them where they're at with that grief.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:29.18)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:33.042)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:36.699)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:45.596)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:54.606)
That's gonna make a big difference because just like when you're grieving that loss of a loved one, the person who says, well, you knew they were gonna die, what's the big deal? Those people are not the people we want to have in our lives, but the people who come up to you and say, my God, this is hard. I'm sorry. And I know it's not what you thought it was gonna be, but I'm here to help you through this now. That's the person they're gonna respond to. And so I think it's important for us to think about that as the folks who maybe...
Taina Brown she/hers (11:01.39)
Everybody dies. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:15.973)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:23.01)
have some of that inclination to be like, well, what'd you think was gonna happen? Maybe if we can find some of that empathy, look at this as like a grieving moment, that might make a difference in how people behave moving forward.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:26.197)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:30.414)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:33.945)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. you know, you know, to add a layer of complexity to to that, you know, I think Black women have like been grieving for centuries and I I posted this TikTok. I think it was last week. It feels like last year, but it was just last week. Is January ever going to fucking end?
And it was about the announcement of ICE being able to go into hospitals and churches and schools now. And I was basically just saying, if you work at a hospital or church or school, you need to have a plan right now for when ICE shows up. You can't wait until they show up to have a plan because it'll be too late by then. And someone commented, a Black woman, which, and again, I get where she's coming from 100%, get where she's coming from, but
She commented, you know, they voted for him, let them leave. And I was just like, and this was her second comment in a series of just like a little bit of back and forth. And so her first comment was just, you know, like, because I was basically was comparing it to like the civil rights movement and the Holocaust. And like a lot of people are always like,
If I were alive back then, what would I have done? And I'm like, well, this is your moment to find out. Like we've been saying that for years, but like for real, for real now feet to the fire. so, and her first comment was just like, you can't compare the two because nobody's being thrown into ovens and nobody's being killed. And it's different. And they voted for him anyway or something. And I was just like.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:29.987)
Blown away by the callousness. And again, I totally get like, there's a whole like 92 % movement on social media of just like, well, 92 % of black women voted not for Donald Trump. So we're just gonna sit back and like watch the world burn. And it's like, okay, what happened in November? At this point, it's irrelevant because we're all in this shit together now and we all have to find a way to cope out of this.
There's that attitude, I think, doesn't make room for grief, right? Not just for other people that are grieving, even for Black women to grieve because it takes this posture of, like you said, almost like a little bit of superiority and this posture of like, well, I told you so. It's more of an angry posture as opposed to.
a posture of just like really coming to terms with the reality that we're in. And I don't think that those two things are mutually exclusive. Like, be fucking angry. Yeah, like be fucking angry. But also like let yourself grieve and let yourself have empathy and compassion for other people that are grieving too. And I think one of the things that we misunderstand about grief sometimes is that we think of it as steps.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:33.198)
I was gonna say, that's stages of grief. Yeah, those are stages of grief.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:53.623)
And that's not the case, right? Like grief is like a funnel that you're popping in and out of. And so you might be angry today and feel like you moved on into acceptance and, tomorrow. And then next week you get angry all over again because something triggered you or because, you know, you're thinking about it in a different way that you hadn't considered before. so there's...
collective trauma that we have been.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:29.554)
enduring. It's like being in an abusive relationship, right? And so there's a level of trauma that I don't think a lot of people have dealt with. And instead, they just like stay angry. But
Anger is just a part of grief. Like it's not, it's not the whole part of grief. And to just stay in anger, you're just letting that trauma build up as opposed to like working through it and processing. So that way you can then move on and be like, okay, what do I do now?
Becky Mollenkamp (16:12.11)
Well, the five stages of grief, as they talk about in psychology and yes, they are not linear, but often people think it moves in this like order where you ended acceptance. Acceptance generally is where you arrive, but you can arrive there and still sort of go back and then back and forth. But a lot of this is like circular, right? You're moving around these things, but the stages of grief are denial, which often comes first, but not always, right?
Sometimes we are not in denial for a while. Anger, for some people, that's the first place they go. Bargaining, which is where I hear a lot of the stuff we're talking about here, where people are talking about how they could have prevented it. That's kind of what this bargaining is. It's like, oh, if I had only done this, if I had only done that, which I think is in some ways where I feel like there is this feeling of folks who didn't vote for him, of like, well, if you would just listen to me, if you would have just voted the way I said, but it didn't happen.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:53.521)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:09.89)
That is not forward progress that's staying and it, you know, same that denial is or anger and then depression and then acceptance. And I think that so many of us are in different spaces, but without meeting people where they are and recognizing that we're all on the same journey, even if we're in different places on the journey, and maybe not all of us, there is still that 30%.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:09.939)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:32.403)
Mm hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:36.558)
who are just like, it doesn't matter, you can shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and I'm still gonna love them and I'm gonna celebrate. Okay, those people are gonna be, there's still like 60, 70 % of Americans who are in some form of grief right now, right? Because the ones who even who voted for him, that 20 % who voted for him but aren't part of his like 30 % no matter what people, they're feeling some grief too, right? And that's hard because for many of us, that's hard to see.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:42.182)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:59.097)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:06.348)
and to see it as that and to be able to be with that without the anger or the bargaining or the depression or whatever it is. But it doesn't help any of us because what helps us and also, guess I just need to, want to speak as the white woman in the room to what you're talking about with black women because also I'm not saying that black women, like in no way would I ever say you have to show up this way. What you're doing is wrong or anything else because I can't imagine.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:15.814)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:32.844)
having an ancestral lineage of hundreds of years of being in grief, right? And then having other people finally sort of showing up and being like, I totally get it now. Like, that's hard. That's gotta be like beyond hard. So I think black women need to tend to each other. think that, you know, how you show up is gotta be different. And so when I'm speaking, I just wanna be super clear that I'm only speaking to folks who have a lot of
Taina Brown she/hers (18:47.901)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:02.222)
privilege in this situation. And so for folks like me, I think it's even more imperative that we don't join in that chorus of, hey, well, we told you we knew, because we have, it's a different scenario. It's as comparing apples and oranges. Yeah. And so I, but I think for those of us with a lot of privilege to show up and say, how can I see your grief?
Taina Brown she/hers (19:03.502)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:17.716)
Yeah, yeah, the context is different.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:28.288)
and know that even while I'm in anger or your grief brings up my anger or brings up my bargaining or brings up the depression, we are still both in the same journey now. Because we can go back to November 4th, but what good does that do us? Because we can't literally, like we are all here now. So what do we do now? Because I think so much of what you and I want to talk about is like liberation and liberation doesn't happen by sitting in past.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:39.438)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:44.142)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:54.294)
Right? Liberation is now and future focus. It is what do do now to get us to where we want to go? Me being angry about how you voted, like I get there's a time for that because that is part of this grief process. But at some point, I have to recognize it is not serving any purpose other than to fuel my anger. But it's not actually creating. It's not moving us towards the destination I want. It is not helping it create liberation. And I say all of this as somebody who
Taina Brown she/hers (19:54.373)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:10.54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:23.01)
Like I am preaching to myself because this is so hard for me to do too. Like I can feel every bit of me inside wanting to be like, fuck you and we told you so. But I feel like a lot of that is probably grounded in some white supremacy culture stuff too, with that perfectionism and all.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:24.975)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:32.751)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:38.285)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's been rough. Like I have, I'm not sure that I've like fully allowed myself to feel like everything that's like going on internally over the past like few weeks.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:57.74)
by a weeks, by the way, he was sworn in on the 20th. As we record this, we are talking nine days. By the time it comes out, it'll be like, you two weeks. That's it. And yet it feels already like it's been months or years of it. And it's like, yeah, so it's hard. And I get it. And the whole point, like you said, this is shock and awe, as they called it, for that very reason you said, to keep us in this place so that we can't process any
Taina Brown she/hers (21:00.909)
Yeah, last week. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. God.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:16.866)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:21.869)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I am trying to find a way to work through the grief in a way that is conducive to my capacity right now. so while also maintaining that...
I have to show up as a business owner, as a coach. Like when we were both coaches, part of our role is to help guide people. So how do we do that while also processing our own shit, right? And so I've just kind of been in this place of just like...
trying to take it as slow as possible, not having unrealistic expectations of myself. And when I feel it's necessary to talk things out with my wife or friends or even here on the podcast, right? And so it feels weird to just like...
It feels almost like being in limbo. you're not, like I'm not fully grieving, but I'm also not fully hopeful. I'm just kind of like in between. And I'm just kind of like dipping my toe in each of those spaces at different times. And so I actually, sent an email out to my email list this morning, cause it's on the day that we recorded this, it's lunar new year. And so, my wife is Asian and she's part Chinese. And so that's why I'm wearing the scarf.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:40.333)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:00.224)
Is she a snake? Because I know the year of the snake.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:02.121)
It's the year of the snake. Yeah, it's the year of the snake. We got our envelopes. I'm a cock. Yeah, we had trouble finding red envelopes to give people money in, but we eventually found them. have like our mandarins. We've got the whole thing that we're doing to celebrate. And so I sent an email to my email list this morning about the year of the snake and what that means.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:04.622)
I'm a rabbit. nice.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:29.031)
A lot of the themes around that is just about shedding old skins, right? And how shedding the old makes way for the new. But when you're in the process of shedding, it just looks gross and messy. It doesn't look good, it doesn't feel good. And how we really have to just trust that every destruction is a birthplace for something new. And even as I was writing that, I'm like,
do I fucking believe this? Like right now it doesn't feel like I believe this, but I know that that is a circumstantial feeling. That's not how Taina really feels about things, right? And so what, and I think it's important for us to like understand the differences between that, right? Between temporary feelings, circumstantial feelings versus like who we truly are at our core.
And the values that I hold at my core, I do believe that every destruction is a birthplace for something new. However, the way that I'm feeling right now, it's hard to hold on to that belief. It's hard to grasp that belief because I'm seeing so much destruction around me. so, and I think that's part of the grieving process too, like being able to like discern what is
temporary and external versus like what is really at the core of who you are and like what the things that you really need to like try your hardest to hold on to during those temporary moments. Yeah, yeah, it's been fucking weird.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:15.499)
Well, and I think that part that you were talking about of like, this weird place that we all find ourselves in of the world feels like it's burning. And my bills don't stop just because of that. Right? Like we're not in a place where the world is shut down. I mean, even like in those like the early days of the pandemic, when we were on this like lockdown, the world felt shut down. And yet
Taina Brown she/hers (25:28.763)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:39.254)
mortgage companies were still asking for their money. mean, there was some pausing of things, but like, we're not even having that. There's no like, hey, let's all take a break. Right. And it's funny because I saw it. Well, not funny. It actually kind of pissed me off. I saw somebody on blue sky who I really respect saying, the world's burning and people are just sending out, like, I got an email for somebody from somebody I respect trying to pitch me something. And I'm like, the world's burning down. Come on people. We need to all focus on that. And I'm like, that's a, that's a really privileged.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:41.415)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:46.695)
It's like a feet, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:08.814)
take to say we're all supposed to what quit our job, quit everything and do nothing but get out on the streets and revolt. And like, there's every part of me that wants to do that. And I got to make money. And the thing that's even more scary is it feels my livelihood feels even more threatened. So I'm feeling even more panicked to try and make more money because I'm so scared of, you know, the economic realities of what are coming that I'm like,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:09.68)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:21.68)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30.477)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:38.71)
I need to even double down more on working now versus working less because I don't have that kind of privileged position to able to say, I just don't have to work. I can just go and riot and protest and whatever. And like as much as I would love to do nothing but, and it's hard for me to focus on other things, I'm in this, you know, we're all in this place of like, I think part of the grief is this feeling of I should be grieving all the time.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:42.651)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:04.364)
And I got to work, which is so similar to when I've had losses in my life of people where you're like, wait a minute. I mean, I remember when my brother died. It was like, I'm supposed to just, I remember distinctly that feeling of, so everyone gave me a couple of days, right? Because in America grief is supposed to last three days. That's what most employers will give you. And that's only for the closest people in your life, right? So forget about a friend where you get like an hour or two to go to the funeral, right? No, you just get an hour to the funeral, but for like your
Taina Brown she/hers (27:09.946)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:23.203)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or a cousin that close to. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:34.008)
parent or your child or your sibling, you get three days, most usually. Exactly, right? That's even super privileged. And I remember I was self-employed at time, so I didn't get bereavement leave. But I remember like the funeral and the things and people kind of sending flowers and saying things. And then there felt like there was this shift where everyone else went about their lives again. And not long before I started to feel almost this pressure of people saying like,
Taina Brown she/hers (27:38.839)
If you're lucky, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:04.256)
They didn't say it, but this feeling of like, okay, like, are you, are you done now? Like you're ready to get back, like, come on, you're making us uncomfortable with your grief. Like, let's get back to life. And I just remember this feeling of like, how am I supposed to like, ever function normally again? Now I'm so far removed from my brother's death that I can say eventually you do, right? I'm coming up on 15 years this year. Eventually, yeah, you do function again and you do go about life and it just comes up in these moments where you see something that makes you think of them or an anniversary of something comes up.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:08.707)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:12.228)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:23.204)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:30.751)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:34.114)
But in those first years, not days, years for me after I was in this place of like, what the do you mean I have to function like a normal human? And I couldn't even, I looked at everyone else and thought, how are you all functioning as normal? And that was when it was just my thing. And now I'm looking at all of us going like, I don't know about you, but when I'm out in the world moving about right now, I look at people and I think like, are you guys all feeling as fucked up? Yeah, like I don't feel okay. Are you okay? And yet we're all like,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:47.928)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:59.619)
Okay, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:03.948)
getting going to the gas pump or picking our kids up at school or, you know, heading the grocery store. And I think like, I just look at everyone in a new through a different lens at the moment of going like, are you internally freaking out as much as I am? And I'm just going through the motion. So maybe you're just going through the motions, but like, we have also we have to go through the motions. So it is just a really hard thing to grapple with.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:05.88)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:19.309)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:26.935)
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny because we went to the grocery store, I think this was on Friday, and people were not okay. Based on the driving in the parking lot, I was like, we need to get the fuck back home because people are not okay out here. It was, we saw almost no lie, three or four accidents just in the parking lot of the grocery store.
It felt so bizarre. was like, are people? Do people just forget how to drive? And I think people are just so distracted and so overwhelmed and angry, yeah, that they're just not really attuned to things that they normally are. Right, right, right. And I think it's really important to understand, one, we've been saying grief is a process.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:06.238)
Angry, distracted, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:12.984)
or they're taking it out with like road rage and yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:24.629)
but it's a process that you have to intentionally choose. Like you don't process grief just because it's a process. Like you have to choose to process it. You have to choose to deal with it. Otherwise it just will show up in these ways that you are not wanting it to show up. like, I just went through like a somatic CBT training and like,
It's not just the like, it shows up by you being angry or short with people and starting fights or being a bad driver. But like you also hold that shit in your body, like that stress that you hold in your body. And I know like there's a lot of shit out there where people are like, we hold grief in our stomachs or we hold grief in our back. And that that's bullshit. Like everybody holds grief in a different place or in a different way. Like we're all unique, you know, and so not everyone's going to respond.
to grief in the same somatic way. So if you see shit like that, just know that it's not real. But it's also important to just release that energy out of your body. When we got back from the grocery store, I was so worked up. just, as soon as we came inside, I went into my kitchen and I had to just shake it out really violently because there was just so much anxious energy in me from being around all the
parking lot bullshit that was happening. That I was just like, I gotta release this because I just otherwise I'm not gonna be able to sleep tonight. I'm gonna be worked up or whatever. But I wanted to just like go back to something that you said earlier about how like you saw someone on Blue Sky, know, like kind of critiquing and getting an email for an offering or something. I, know, I used to be that person that's like, oh, you shouldn't, you know, you gotta give people time or whatever.
I stopped being that person for two reasons. One,
Taina Brown she/hers (32:27.334)
my business is not going run itself. like as the CEO, as the business owner, like the business has to keep functioning and it's not going to happen on its own. So I have to do it. And then two also that feels like obeying in advance to me. Like it feels like sacrificing something that I'm not ready or willing to sacrifice for the sake of like
the chaos, right? It feels like playing into that game of just like letting myself be distracted and letting myself just be thrown off to the point where I can't do anything. And I know not every business owner feels like their business is their activism work, but I do.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:15.456)
And I do too. And I think a lot of folks attracted to us would show up that same way. I just made available in my shop, smashingpatriarchy.com, I just made a do not obey in advance shirt. so, yeah, and I'm getting one for myself for that. that just a reminder of like, what are the ways that we are doing that? Because, and I do see it the same way as I hadn't thought of it, but as you say it, because it is this whole shock and awe thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:19.491)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:28.894)
I saw that. It looks so good.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:43.626)
is by design to make us want to hole up, right? And just be in a state of depression and paralyzed by fear and overwhelm. And I think that one way we don't do that is we continue to say, no, I'm gonna earn a living. I'm gonna make money so that I can feed my family, right? So that I don't end up not being able to feed my family and then even more at the whims of your power and control over me. And so I do think
Taina Brown she/hers (34:01.276)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:11.513)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:12.664)
You're right in that. don't want just to shift our focus if it's okay, because I want to make sure we're mindful of our time. I do think something that's helpful is talking about how do we deal with grief because you're saying like grief has to we have to be with the grief. We have to like feel the grief. I always tell people like you can run from grief, but it will catch you because grief has one job grief's only job is to be felt. Right. And so it's going to go and go until you do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:13.871)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:19.524)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:33.886)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:40.622)
Or you drop dead and don't do it. until you feel it, it will be there haunting you, begging you to be there with it. So I think what are the things that help you? Thinking back on times where you've been in a grieving process, because like I said, I've had a miscarriage, I lost my brother, I had a divorce. Those are just some of the big ways I've experienced grief. But then there's also all the small things that happen throughout a job change or whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:46.576)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:04.419)
Now.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:09.954)
I've had lot of experience with grief. I'm sure you have as well. I don't think you can get very far into this human experience without learning about grief. Yeah. So what are the things that have helped you? I'm assuming based on what you just said, somatics are a part of it. So maybe start there, but I'd love to hear some of yours and then I'll tell you some of mine that maybe you don't cover.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:15.525)
Yeah, without grieving. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:25.017)
Yeah.
Yeah, so I think for me, I'm very sensitive to like stimulation. And there's a lot of external stimulation happening day in and day out between social media, like outside noise, know, family, dogs, like work, there's just so much external stuff that I'm also really good at like
focusing on the external stuff and not the internal stuff. Like I'm just like, no, I'll just I'll do that and that'll take care of it, right? Like I'm good at disassociating that way. And so for me the best way that I have found to like process my grief is like cutting off as much external stimulation as possible. Like sitting in silence, sitting in a silent room by myself where I have
nowhere to run from my thoughts and my feelings. And doing so intentionally, right? Doing so when I feel like, okay, I'm ready. And so I think it's important to know, like, understand, like, where you're at to have the self-awareness to understand where you're at and when you're ready to deal with things and when you're not ready to deal with things. And so when I feel like, okay, I'm feeling like,
it's time to like get through this. That's usually what I'll do. Like I'll go for a drive sometimes, keep the windows out, turn the radio off, or I'll just like go up to the bedroom and just sit by myself and maybe journal a little bit, just think for a while. And I will say like I...
Taina Brown she/hers (37:18.667)
didn't get to the point of having that self-awareness and I'm still not like 100 % self-aware. There are definitely times where my wife is like calling me out because I'm just like blind to my own tactics but therapy, therapy helps a lot with developing a healthy sense of self-awareness and because I have been in therapy for years I feel like I can.
manage some of that on my own now. If you feel like you can't manage some of that on your own, then I think that's an indication that like, you should probably be talking to be talking to a licensed therapist who can help you make sense of what you're feeling. And I know that not everyone can afford that. And so I understand that there was a privilege there as well. But, but if you at least know that, you know, then I think that can kind of help you.
get started on moving through that process. And then when I'm ready, talking about it out loud. Talking about it out loud is really hard for me a lot of times. And so I need a lot of quiet solitude to just kind of process on my own before I'm ready to talk about it out loud.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:34.766)
Yeah, I can relate to a lot of those things. The solitude piece for me is also really big as an introvert and somebody who's very internally focused. So one of the things that I wanted to bring up was the book Burnout by the Nagoski sisters, which isn't about grief. And yet, so much of it is actually really related to grief, because grief, I find can often especially when you're not when you're not dealing with it.
can manifest itself in a lot of like stress and tension in our bodies, like because we're not, we're suppressing the grief. And so that it's becoming this sort of stress feeling. And so the things that they share in that book about managing stress before it becomes burnout. So, and I feel like it's so related to ways to actually be with your grief before it consumes you. And I can say this as somebody, I ran for two years from my grief after my brother's death. I stayed in...
Taina Brown she/hers (39:04.649)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:11.102)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:30.434)
denial and like I was just not being with the grief. I was like, how far can I run? Because I just, it was so overwhelming to even think about that. was like, I can't, I just can't do it. I did everything I could to not have to grieve. And eventually it caught me and it was, I am certain, so much harder than it needed to have been if I could have learned or if I could have allowed myself to feel it.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:41.145)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:57.058)
from the beginning and throughout that time. It was like a pressure, if I could have let the pressure valve like be releasing pressure that whole two years instead of it, you know, yeah, blowing at the end of two years. So the things that they talk about, and I, I just, recommend this book to everybody cause I just think it's so helpful for everything. So grief, yes, but also just like dealing with stress of life. And there's so much of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:05.075)
Lowing. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:20.322)
But so the six or they outline like six ways to deal with stress that help you kind of complete the stress cycle. And I think all of these things help with grief. One of them is breathing. like when you that's huge for me and I know it sounds stupid because it's like, well, I always breathe, but they're talking about deep, slow, conscious, intentional breathing.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:30.429)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:41.212)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:42.988)
And that is always still by far the number one thing that works for me, whether I'm feeling stress or sadness or anything else, is if I can breathe, can get, I can start to regulate my nervous system to be able to be with whatever it is so it doesn't get overwhelming. Exactly. Well, and another one is laughter, which when we think about grief, we often think like, I remember, like, how was I supposed to have fun? Like the world is ending, I can't have fun.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:50.043)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:54.001)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's static practice.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:09.506)
But I think that's part of that whole joy sponge thing I talked about back at the end of the year of like, want to soak up all this joy because I need to be able to, as it gets wrung out of me, I want to have plenty. And I need to call and like pull from that joy too. need to laugh. Yesterday, I was feeling the weight of the world really heavy and I sat down and watched a show called Taskmaster, which I love on BBC. It is delightful and silly and stupid. And it just makes me laugh. It's just comedians completing these random tasks and trying to figure out how to do it in the-
like most efficient way and it ends up being hilarious. I sat on YouTube and I watched that for probably two hours and laughed and I felt so much better. Laughter, it's another somatic thing and that helps us with clearing the somatic. And obviously similar is crying, just a big old cry, which is where therapy can help, talking about it can help, also journaling, that's, you for me, as who doesn't necessarily wanna always wanna talk about it yet, journaling allows me to do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:52.401)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:04.792)
What I have found for me is like being out in nature, going for long walks, listening to sad music. Like I can force myself into tears sometimes by just choosing music that kind of makes me sad, which you think, why do I want to do it? Because we got to get it out. And that's another way. So there's some of the somatic ways, then, well, in affection, like hugs, holding hands.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:07.76)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:13.722)
Yeah. Yeah.
You gotta release, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:23.98)
Right? Just have being with people who can give you some like physical affection can also be helpful. And that's another physical somatic way of processing. And then a couple of there may be slightly less physical, but still somatic is being with your friends, just having positive social interactions. Because sometimes like we can find ourselves wanting to hold up. like you, like both of us have admitted, we can get very like insular at these times, but we need to resist the temptation.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:43.153)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:46.992)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:51.0)
to be only with ourselves. We need community. We don't have to be talking about the grief, right? But we need to be with others during hard times, whether we're stressed or going through grief. So finding ways to be with friends, family, even if you set that ground rule, that boundary of like, I don't want to talk about what's happening in the world. I can't do that. can't, you know, I can't process that right now. I just need to be with somebody. Come watch some show, watch a show with me or let's go to lunch or let's like.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:54.523)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:09.603)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:16.835)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:19.222)
sit next to each other and knit, whatever the thing is you do. And then the last one is creative expression. So finding creative outlets, you know, even if you don't think of yourself as a creative person, that I know that I did like collage projects during that time when I was grieving my brother specifically. Lately, I've been feeling that pull again to like do some art projects.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:40.271)
Good one. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:41.122)
And that's that it's your body's way of processing thing, your brain's way of processing things before maybe you're ready to talk about it. So those are some things that I think are helpful. And the only other one that they don't mention that I found that I think is super, super important to remember when we're grieving is to ask for help. We continue to function in this deeply American individualistic way during grief to think like, I can do this. I'm tough. can.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:43.896)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:57.579)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:07.424)
ride this out. I don't need anybody to help me. Like I'll be fine. I'll make it all work. sometimes we need help. We need help with like, I need to, I can't function today. I need somebody to come help watch my child or can, can someone else come make dinner or can someone else, you know, do the transport today on something. Can somebody else go get my groceries or pick up the prescription, whatever the thing is, don't be afraid to ask for help. We need help. And this is where that like mutual aid kind of stuff we've talked about comes into play too.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:20.587)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:32.035)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:33.858)
How do we support each other during this time? Because we all need help right now.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:37.247)
Yeah, yeah. One thing I'll add to that list also is just rest. I think sometimes because there's so much being thrown at us, we're too tired to grieve. And so rest is sometimes like step zero. Like just, just rest, just make sure you get some good rest so that way you can like feel like, okay, now I can like really think about what's happening. And so that, that has been beneficial for me too. Like I have taken times of rest.
When I remember when I was almost done with college, barely had any money, but decided to book a hotel at the beach for a weekend and drive four hours to the beach. some people, they weren't friends friends, but people that I knew they were like, are you fucking crazy? You don't have money for this. Why are you doing this? And I'm like, I need rest. And this is the way. It seems counterintuitive. And I'm not advocating that everyone should be spending money that they feel like they don't have.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:37.208)
but even a nap.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:37.554)
You get to decide, yeah, but you get to decide for yourself what rest looks like. Like you get to exercise your agency in that way and whatever that looks like, tap into it so you can have the energy and the mental and emotional space to then like deal with what's in front of you.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:56.034)
I'm so glad you mentioned rest because this is a marathon, not a sprint. And if nine days has felt like a year, I don't even want to think about what four years is going to feel like. And there's no way we can get through this and have the energy that we are all going to need to fight, to resist, to support each other, all of it, to take collective action if we don't rest. So I think that's a great place for us to end to is just rest up.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:00.704)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:07.094)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:15.137)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:24.462)
it's going to be a long four years, but you're not alone in it. Your grief, what may, you know, if there's any silver lining at all is sometimes I think grieving an individual can feel very different because it's like your immediate family, whatever, but the rest of the world is moving on and they don't even, they're not even attuned to why you're feeling the way you are in this scenario. Like you said, you go out and you can, you can just feel the electricity in the air of everyone. So many people, 70 % of us.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:25.054)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:48.872)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:52.674)
feeling that same some degree of the same grief, right? And so there is something to that too, to know we're not alone in it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening, everyone.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:59.102)
Yeah, we're here for you.