Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
There are those in the spotlight, and then there is Everybody Else.
Hosted by Wes Luttrell (Indiana-based artist manager, development coach, and founder of Wally Opus Records), Everybody Else is a podcast dedicated to the invisible people who make music happen. Featuring solo commentary and insightful interviews with artist managers, record label execs, booking agents, tour managers, lawyers, music tech founders, music producers, venue managers, and a slew of others whom we'd consider to have the most interesting jobs in the world.
Speaker 2 (00:00.172)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
Who are the invisible people of music today? And what do they do to make music happen? Because behind every great artist, song, venue, festival, and music service, there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right, will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight, and then, there's everybody else.
Speaker 2 (00:30.126)
It's been interesting, I like I've been doing it just at some level for like eight years because you know making money in music is hard and live sound is it's a little bit more immediate as far as getting paid goes. But on the other hand it's also like really exhausting and I feel like... hours brittle. Yeah everybody knows the stigma of like the sound guy at a venue too which is not like inaccurate.
of like a crotchety, pissed off person. But yeah, the venue that I work at in LA, which is Gold Diggers, is like a pretty well connected, they just bring in a lot of people by way, I think partially because they have a big studio that's connected to it and it's just a really good sounding room. They get a lot of like crossover from bigger touring artists that kind of do like, I don't know, like little stopover kind of.
showcase type things there. But just in general, their booking is really good. And they pay better than the venues in New York, because New York sucks. But I've been there for like a little over a year. yeah, I've been doing live sound for a while. Never. I enjoy it. It's not, it doesn't hold the same place in my heart as like recording and working in the studio. It's very different. But
I met this band called The Main Squeeze because my friend went, they host these random things called Squeeze House where they have... Yeah, at their house. So I guess it's these kind of giant jam sessions. And my friend Jack, who's a photographer, met them there and got close with them, did like a short week long tour run with them where he was tour managing and kind of just like documenting the thing. And they were looking for somebody at some point to do a live stream.
The band hosts it.
Speaker 2 (02:22.912)
and mix it, mix it live, so I did that and I guess they liked it. And then they wanted somebody to do a tutorial with them and also primarily to do all these festival shows over the summer. So they asked me and that's what I've been doing for the past couple months, which has been really cool, really rewarding. mean, drastically different from what I'm used to because like as far as live sound goes, I've tried to keep it kind of small or just like not
let it become a big thing in my life, guess. Because, yeah. Just because my focus is kind of on all the other stuff. yeah, it's been weird doing sound for like 8,000 people at a festival as opposed on a board that I'd never used. That's like a $60,000 digital board as opposed to like mixing a band in a room for 200 people.
And it's like, yeah, it's cool. It kind of makes you realize like how much we don't know when we're doing stuff. Like it's a lot of bullshitting and it's a lot of just kind of saying yes and being like, yeah, I can do it. But not even knowing if that's actually true until you do it. Yeah, because like we did this festival in San Diego.
I mean, it's lucky because digital boards are so affordable and they're so common, essentially like two brands are like Midas M32 and this Allen and Heath board, which are virtually the same, but like, you can almost count on every single venue of a certain size to like have that. And you can just hop in anywhere. It's pretty easy. But once you start getting scaling things up, it gets different for sure.
So like we did this festival in San Diego where they were on the main stage. Where Anderson Paak was headlining and then Crungbin was headlining the day that they played. And yeah, I was just like, holy shit, I have no idea what I'm, like, I think in my head it was like way scarier than it ended up being. Because it's all the same. It's just like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35.006)
Well the scale, once it scales up the risk just feels greater, right? Yeah.
Like infinitely greater. Yeah, and it's also just it's like wild pulling up faders on a system That's meant to reach that many people. It's like it's so different But yeah, and it was also so quick like these festival shows you just never really know what the deal is gonna be because it's not like a you know, it's not like an every night of the week thing where everything is like They know how it's supposed to run. There's always a million factors
Yeah.
So most of them we've gotten like zero sound check or like maybe five minutes and it's just like all on the fly.
So take one of the bigger festivals, like when you guys roll up, if they're playing later in the day or even in the afternoon, like you guys, you at some point are walking into the front of house tent, I'm assuming that's where, right? And then how much time do you have to get acquainted to what you're working with and like?
Speaker 2 (05:32.748)
It totally depends. that's the first time that I used that board I was talking about like at this festival in San Diego I had like 10 minutes and because it was such a the headlining artists were so big that the time allotted for everybody else was like nothing pretty much and like it was all dependent on when they finished but at the same time that stuff had to still run on time so like we got there they were the first band on the main stage we had to wait for Jason Mraz to finish sound checking
after Krungbin and like I watched the board and he got to show it to me for like 10 minutes and I was like okay cool and then he was like you're not really gonna get to hear them through the system before they go on essentially. So it was just like kind of making little adjustments that I assumed were right before I even got to hear it and then that was it and like it ended up being good I ended up having like the rep for
L Acoustics, which was like the line arrays and the whole system that the festival used came up to me afterwards. He was like, did you mix that band? And I was like, yeah. He was like, that was some of the best, that was the best mix I've heard in forever. And I was like, holy shit, that is just so not what I was expecting at all. So it just shows you. Yeah. And he like gave me his number and all this stuff. Yeah. That was like.
Zero time, we did this festival in Portland that was pretty big too, that we got there at like 9am. They didn't play till 8.45 and we had like two and a half hours to kind of load in and check and everything. And then that one was weird because like the mixing board was like totally to the left of the stage, like not even remotely in front of it.
So I was like, I just remember being like, are the subs even on? And the guy was like, yeah, it's kind of just like we were over here, you can't really hear it. And then I like had to, I walked in front of the stage and I was like, holy shit, this is so fucking loud. I was just like praying that I wasn't like killing the people that were in front of the stage. Cause I had, it was impossible for me to tell. Yeah, it's just like, I think unless, you know, when it's your own tour and you're, you're loading in.
Speaker 2 (07:52.92)
the whole backline or whatever for every show with a band and like it's all kind of like in your control it's really hard to predict what like the factors are gonna be and just how different everything's gonna be. But I will say that doing festivals is nice. Having a background working in a lot of likes just like 200 cap venues. Mixing outside is infinitely more forgiving than mixing in a bad room. So that.
Was there not a bunch of what the sounds not trapped in the walls?
Yeah, it's just completely diffuse. Like there's nothing that... It's not coming back at you from a million directions. Especially with drums and vocals, it's like you don't have to notch all this crazy shit out. You can kind of pull faders up and it's much closer to like the end result than it normally is. But also working on all those shitty venues really helped me with these festivals when everything was going wrong and there was no time.
It helped me not be phased and just be able to just kind of, because that's what I've been used to for a long time.
Isn't it interesting, like, so is the theme. There's always a theme that there's like this through line of experience that leads you to this place where you're like equipped to take on this role. And what's funny though is like, because you didn't go to school for this stuff, because you don't have like a formal, you're not like a typical sound guy. You are a producer who does live sound sometimes. I wonder if you approach it from just like, you're just listening.
Speaker 1 (09:25.366)
Whereas if somebody really is hyper aware of all of the just the intricacies of the live set up and they've just, you know what I mean? They're a part of typical practice and all this shit. You don't know all those rules in the traditional sense, so you're free to go in there and just do what you think sounds good, which is such a pure, mean, it doesn't really surprise me then that you can get these really good sounding mix.
You're just approaching it from a listener versus from a technician, if that makes sense.
Yeah, definitely I think that has some effect on it. I mean, like, I've gotten a little bit more acquainted with some of the technical stuff after doing it for so long, but I think I try to just approach it from like a perspective of just like, does it sound good? Yeah. not. And also having been in bands for most of my life and played on the stage, I know how it feels to be in that position. And that's a lot. That affects like what I'm doing a lot.
Especially if I do have to like mix in ears or monitors or whatever. Like I know what they want to hear too. Or like what it should feel like on stage. And I think that's a helpful place to come from.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:44.942)
You're like empathetic towards what it would be like to be an artist.
Yeah, very much so. Sometimes too much. Sometimes too much where it's like every night, even just at like the normal venue is like, I know how important this is to these guys. And like, I take it on and I'm like, just neurotic every shift. Like, I can't separate myself from like the, yeah, the work and the, I don't know what it feels like to like, be playing any show as an artist, because it's always important.
It is funny though, like I've seen you just at like even a tiny acoustic gig around here when you played in town last year. When it came time to set up, you snapped into like a, like I've done this a million times. Here we go. It's like, this needs to go here. Is this working? It's like, it was funny to see you just like go into, yep, here we go. I'm gonna connect this with over here and here we go. And is it good? All right, good. Here we go. We're gonna play.
I mean, I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing every single time I do it. I don't know how to put it, but...
Is it like an imposter syndrome feeling or is it more of just like
Speaker 2 (11:46.39)
It's probably an imposter It's like new. I think it's probably a me thing, like an imposter syndrome that infiltrates everything I do. also just like, you never know. You can never really predict anything with like life. Like we had shows where just everything went wrong. Like festival tour thing that we'd been doing. Like we had like the stage box overheat five minutes before they went on.
What's the stage box?
Stage box is like the digital snake that everything is running to to get to the board But there's two of them one was for monitors one was for fun a house so then we had to and they have monitor guys at like 90 % of these festival shows, so I don't have to do it, but then we had to scratch that and Use one stage box so I had to mix remix the whole in-ear mix right before they went on stage or like this last show in Colorado we
It was like an hour and a half drive, ended up taking us six hours. Got to the show 15 minutes before it was supposed to start. There was no power because there was like a lightning warning. So they didn't turn the power on until literally when they were supposed to start. No sound check. Then halfway through the first song, they blew the fuse on the guitar amp, the bass amp, the Nord and one other thing and had to stop and then like find other back line.
I don't, you just like, you never know what the hell is gonna happen. Like in a studio setting, there's less moving factors for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:25.39)
Yeah, and there's not an audience most of the time staring at you. What did the band do when everything blew?
I think everybody was, that show in particular, everybody was so exhausted already from that day that they were just like, whatever. But it was rough because like we took that long to get there and then they got to play for like a total of like 15 minutes and then we had to drive back. That show sucked. I mean they were great but.
What is the benefit of them having you to come out to all these shows versus just like, is there ever like a, just a house person or do they have to provide their
He's always a house person, but they've been doing this for a while and like their setup is not that straightforward. Like even the people who are hired by these things usually have a hard time just even doing the patching or like the monitor mix. It's just like, it's kind of confusing. Like the keyboardist has like, I don't even, just him alone. It's like 10 inputs. I think just when, once you've been touring and playing them up shows, it's,
the peace of mind of having somebody just at least know and their job being to specifically have your best interests in mind is nice compared to like relying on somebody who's just kind of like being paid for the day.
Speaker 1 (14:45.974)
Yes, yes. They can build rapport with you. They build like a real trust that like that's one less thing. Or even so much shit can go wrong. It's nice to have somebody who like is there to help write the ship every single time. Because they get pretty used to knowing, okay, well that's probably that thing that blew and then that thing.
Yeah, also a lot of live shows with bigger shows and touring bands, a lot of it is like automating kind of things, like knowing the songs and knowing where the delay throw is going to be or where to push the reverb, where there's going to be no reverb, you know what mean? That's one of the bigger parts of it too.
Did you make that up or did they tell you when they want things to happen? Like during the set if you're throwing a reverb did they say we do this every time?
No, they just... Honestly, the whole thing has been pretty like, just... Somehow they trusted me just to figure it out. I don't know. They sent me some live recordings that I kind of listened to. But if you're a musician and you've seen enough shows, it's pretty easy to, I don't know, gauge those things too.
Well it's funny because you're being creative. You're being like a, you're not just engineering the sound, you're being somebody who's like, the sound is alive. It's a live recording but you're mixing it. You're producing it, you know?
Speaker 2 (16:15.426)
Yeah, I mean the difference between live and recorded is obviously like the dynamics are completely different because it is fully live. So like you don't have to do that stuff as much as you would on a recording, but it's still part of your job to like make it feel like it's moving and not playing it to static, whatever. Yeah, it's cool because I think the thing that I'm trying to take away the most from doing this stuff is like you don't have time to think.
that much when you're mixing a live set. It's like you do it and then it's over. You what I mean? Whereas in the studio, you can do something as many times as you wish, which tends to be where I run into an issue is perfectionism or overthinking. like taking some of the philosophy from mixing live and trying to implement it in the studio, I think is important for me at least where it's like, what if you didn't have?
another take, you know? Or like, what if you just had to commit to this? Yeah, I think that's...
It's almost like the natural constraints of doing stuff live forces you to decide stuff in a moment to where maybe when that guy's like, damn dude, you weren't even thinking, you're just mixing, that guy's like, dude, that was the best live mix I've heard in a long time.
Yeah, exactly. And after that, was like, when that one ended particularly, I was like, I have no idea what, how that went. Cause I was just like doing it and just was like, I hope this sounds good. It sounds okay to me. That's all I can do. And I think trying to think like that a little bit more in the studio, like does it sound good to you right now? Then maybe that's enough. know?
Speaker 1 (17:57.932)
Yeah. And even like the time constraint, only having what, how long are the longest sets? An hour, hour and a half? 70 minutes. It's like, even if all you have was 70 minutes to work on this mix and then you got to turn something in, it may not have to be the final thing, but it's interesting to even think about constraints in sort of like timeframes. Like I only have this much time to make these decisions and then go to the next thing.
70 minutes.
Speaker 2 (18:22.478)
Totally. And even committing as far as the tracking part goes, think it makes me want to do that more. Because obviously that was the norm before everything was digital. Now, I can't say everybody, because that's definitely not true, but the people that don't have all this other outboard gear and whatnot are tracking everything pretty dry for the most part. And it's not necessarily close to the sound that you're going to hear in the end.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:52.632)
But then by nature of that, it's like you can just continuously manipulate the sound till you go crazy. But in the past, you know, they would get the EQ set to an extent, choose a compressor that they're tracking into, or just at least try it. They had to try to get the sound as close to what you were going to hear in the finished product when they were tracking it. And also like it completely, the more I've thought about this stuff, like you realize how much that affects
the performance of the artist to like what they're hearing when you're tracking is really important to how they're tracking it.
Yeah, because if they know, dude, this is such a good point, like in production, if the artist knows that like, well, you can clean that up, right? You can clean that up in post. It's like, yeah, but that doesn't mean like, I can't polish a turd. Like I can't like turn this shitty take into something great. I could tweak the sound. What is it like? You could tweak sound, timing, but I can't, I can't like turn up the performance. The soul.
Totally.
Speaker 2 (19:59.34)
Yeah, you turn up the humanness, it is. And in every aspect, like, I've noticed a lot with drummers, and like, it's kind of different, but I've noticed, not that this is like the exact same topic, but it's just on the subject of like, what you're hearing, how it affects what you're performing. But I've noticed drummers that when they'll do like, who I've sent to maybe record drums and they have like,
Yeah, the delivery.
Speaker 2 (20:26.99)
14 mics on something, I think it completely fucks up what they're playing. Like when you're hearing everything, every little, I don't know, like every part of the drum set mic'd up and magnified, I don't know, I don't think you can play the same as like when you're just, it's just your ears and you're just hearing the drum kit like kind of imperfectly in a room. I think it takes away from something.
It might even be the fact that like if you Like I noticed this with you guys you set up like three mics and a drum kit in a room in a studio setting if you are are setting up like multiple drum mic like 12 mics You're not leaving room in your head for other instruments to fit like you're not even leaving the space your imaginations you're just
Hearing every single part of the drums. Yeah. Yes. It's unrealistic to like how you would actually. Yeah. Versus in real life.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:27.438)
Exactly. yes, you know, like, yeah, like transitioning to production. Something I've noticed lately, I've been really into country from like, Tim McGraw, Faith Hill, like 1999, 2000, 2001 period. They both worked with this guy, Byron Gilmore.
And what I noticed about his productions are that like, like the sound is timeless to me because the instruments are recorded very well and you can tell that each instrument, like the sound of each instrument was chosen and specific. And like the emphasis really is on the music and the performances, right? On the arrangements. And it's not about...
Like I would be so surprised at like what they would even have done in mixing other than like levels and compression and like gluing it all together.
Totally.
I think that the reason I'm interested in it so much is because it almost speaks to this high moment of when creativity in country music meets quality of sound recording and playing an instrument and the Nashville machine at its highest. it's like, because when I listen to these records, I'm like, dude, these sound just as good today or maybe better today than other records that I'm hearing come out of Nashville.
Speaker 1 (22:57.504)
And I wonder like that just intention, like you said of like getting like of having the limitations of like, maybe they chose those limitations, I'm not sure, but to have like all of this stuff chosen before we ever hit the record button produces this really intentional quality full sound.
I think it's inevitable. I don't think there's any way that I couldn't. I mean, I've been listening to Sheryl Crow a lot lately and I've had the same thoughts about her recordings. Like, especially with drums, we're so accustomed to hearing them this specific way now, where it's like every element of the drums is just so upfront. Yeah. And like explosive, just like under a
Like in just such an unrealistic way, which that's the beauty of recording is that you could nothing has to like sound like totally real. Yeah. is like, but also I think, especially with country music, it's like you don't really ever get to like hear just like a, I don't know, like I guess pop country specifically, but it's the drums are like such a, maybe it's Joey Moyes fault, but like they're just like always the same kind of giant snare. I don't know.
And I was listening to Sheryl Crow and I was like, they did not sound good. But I didn't like that. Yes. in the context of the songs, I wasn't like, this is ruining the song. If anything, it was doing the opposite.
Yes, that to me, like that style of recording is interesting right now to me because I think it is such a juxtaposition or like such a difference to like so much modern music where like you said, like everything's close mic that's loud versus like the snare at one time was part of the sound. wasn't its own sound, right? It was just part of its...
Speaker 2 (24:46.798)
The hi-hat used to be a lot more important, that's what I've noticed. When you listen to lot of those recordings, the hi-hat would drive the song a lot more. And now it's like 100 % kick and snare, and like everything else is almost like just an afterthought.
Yeah. When did you, when did you start? We're switching gears again. When did you start playing drum?
I started, I remember, I always like really wanted to and we got, somebody gave us like a shitty drum kit I think when I was 14 or 15 and it was in my dad's garage and I would go there and try to play, System of a Down was like, their song Toxicity was like the first song that I tried really hard to learn and then every time like, cause you know we were in bands in middle school and high school and stuff and our drummer was just not very good and I think that was what
made me want to play drums because every single time I was just like, I could do this better, like no matter what. And then it became like kind of just like directly aligned with like getting interested in recording and drums is like the most kind of comprehensive and interesting instrument I think to record. So playing drums and recording myself kind of just like fed into each other.
But, I was asking like when you like, do you ever perform an instrument just to perform it, just to like work on your instrument, instrument performances, or do you, does performing an instrument synonymous with recording, with taking a track or like with getting things tracked for you?
Speaker 2 (26:18.126)
I'd have to be used to a lot more. I think it's just a matter of time. I think drums have become the only thing that I really do that with. In one way, because it's the best, I don't know, it's the most fun instrument to just let off steam and also practice. But since we started, my brother always would actually practice. That's part of his routine.
I I got a lot more involved, like infatuated by other parts of stuff, like the writing and recording and just like sounds and things that I don't play the instruments as much as could. Yeah. I'm just saying I'm always like...
this week you're gonna set aside time just fucking play guitar but it just doesn't happen
Well, it's interesting because you have a twin brother who, in my opinion, has developed complementary skills at the same high level that you've developed your own skills in the studio. And I think to myself, dude, if he's the one learning, the practicing the guitar, plays the pedal steel, plays the bass, you also play these things. But...
But if he's like really working it out on those instruments and he's becoming great at them, which he is, it like frees you. It's like, it's almost just like, it's like a team. Like it's almost like, okay, you got that, you got that thing. I'm going go over here and work on this thing. And then you've developed these other skills of like, you know, mixing, production, tracking, Aaron can track too. But like, you know I'm saying? Like in drums and vocals, you've like honed in this other skill set that together when you're in the studio that I've been very fortunate to witness.
Speaker 1 (28:09.998)
It's like a well-oiled machine. just, until it breaks down and they got to put more oil on it. like, there's like moments where it just like, you know, you're not even talking. You're like,
Yeah, I think that, I mean, it's definitely been unintentional, but it's also in some ways kind of been intentional. Like, I know this is what you like to do and this is what I like to do and how can we just streamline things? Until I guess recently I've realized though, like, I barely even pick up a guitar in the studio, but I'm just like, you can do it better. I want to get out of the habit of doing, cause I don't, I,
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:51.596)
I don't think sometimes the best guitars don't have these things. So maybe they're right.
Yeah, like maybe actually what the guitar or what the track needs is like a more, no offense, like a less, like a more rudimentary or like a simpler playing, you know, a simpler expression.
And I think it applies to every instrument too. And I think overall, like over time, what makes people the best musicians are the people who have the skill but know when not to always show it. think that's, but it's all just a matter of like, think it all just comes down to, I think the best listeners are the best musicians.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:35.886)
So that's a great, I was just listening to this part, this is like a side note, but it's gonna come back. I was just listening to a podcast of one the co-founders of Shopify, which I've been blasting on my socials, so if anybody, like they would see that. But he talks about crystallized, like crystallized intelligence versus fluid intelligence, and how it's almost like, crystallized would be like wisdom, it's like this stuff that you know.
It's like from experience, it's tried and true. Fluid would almost be like curiosity and childlike, like, we put this with this and see what happens. And he said that the most exciting people that he's worked with are the people who can bounce from both this like wisdom of what works to also like, well, let's try something new. And what I would dare to guess is that like the musicians who stay relevant throughout
Like the great musicians who have stayed relevant as session players or producers or whatever throughout the years, their lives, they make this career arc that is lifelong, are able to bounce from that place of like, here's what I know, here's how crazy we can get, and then here's what the song needs. I'm really thinking it's just this simple plucking sound or something, you know? It doesn't need all the like... Yeah.
percent. Yeah, and yeah, that's just about listening. Like that's like if you don't, if you're not listening to what's going on around you, then how can you know what's best for the song?
Yeah, like listening because long as you're listening, this is the most important thing
Speaker 2 (31:08.406)
Yeah, you just, I've like met so many good musicians, amazing musicians and like that's really it. If you're telling them exactly what to play, then that then it all works out. But like as soon as somebody is not like giving them a chart or whatever, telling them exactly what to play, they kind of just like fall apart. You can't even tell that they're like an incredibly incredible musician because they haven't developed the like.
the ear or like just an yeah what I saying is like it's it's complicated with music I think because it it's a very like egotistical thing like I don't think everybody comes at it from the same place but especially people who have ever written songs or whatever it's like it comes from a really personal place and everybody is wanting to like quote make it to some extent so like the
Make their mark at least.
make their marks and like that's totally fair. think everybody on it when you're like putting out music like you want if you're just like a session player on that song you want the people that who listen to it to like then that's how you get work or whatever like you know like you want people to listen and be like who did that I like that so it's really hard I think to just kind of separate yourself from that that part of things and just listen and do the right thing for the song because I think it's easy to go to a place where it's like
but like nobody's going to know how good I am. I don't. But also, that's not I don't think I think that you they don't need to hear that. I think if people hear the song and the whole thing is good, then they're probably going to be like, who who was a part of this? Like not everybody's going to be like that drum fill is so fucking complicated and sick. need to know who did that.
Speaker 1 (32:57.422)
Right, Dude, that's, I mean, that's what I think, that's the beauty of, I mean, like, this is like in the intro of this show, it says, the people, like the invisible people of music who if they do their job right, you will have never known that it had happened. And it's almost like, that's, it's such a, it's such like a, like paradox that like the best musicians are actually like indetectable almost, like they're like, you almost can't even detect.
that they're in the song. It's just like, it's just happening. But those are the most sought after, easy to work with top musicians versus like, but, I almost think too, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but it almost seems like that comes with the experience of like trying to put your mark on stuff and like just shit sessions don't go well or like nobody gave a fuck anyway. So why did you even try? Like what would it even matter versus like,
You're getting to a place where you actually really care about serving the song. What does the song need? And what is good for the overall whole, not just my moment in this song. It's really obvious with young bands too. Young bands, you can really tell.
Yeah, believe me, believe me, I've had this.
Can you turn the guitar up? Hey dude, can you turn the guitar up? I can't hear it over the drums. Can you turn the guitar up?
Speaker 2 (34:17.419)
You're just like, yeah, so many shows where you're just like, everybody is just fighting with each other. Not like literally, but like musically, everybody's like pushing to be heard. And that just like does not work at all. And it is, it's a hundred percent something that comes with experience. But I do think there are also some people that just like never really get it. And that doesn't mean that they're not. There's a place for like most types of skill sets in music. And like I said, like if you're OK with like
being told exactly what to do and being able to execute it. That's a lot of session musicians or touring musicians, probably more than not. But like, I think the people that have the most successful or at least like fulfilling careers are the ones that make it into something like a little bit more than that. Or are part of like the creative whole as whatever you're doing like musically. At least for me.
I was just gonna say
I don't like the idea of being just like a hired gun and being like this is what you're gonna do Maybe because I do have an ego
I think it's a natural, like, you know, just like a rebel in you that has to tweak it a little bit. That is like a common thing though. It's an artist characteristic, I think. Like that's like an artist characteristic. Like, well, let's make it creative. Like I don't want to just, it's not even happening if it's not creative, you know? Yeah. Do you, on Monday nights, you've mentioned that like at Gold Diggers, it's like the Top Dog session musicians come out and do a jam.
Speaker 1 (35:49.778)
What in those environments, what do you notice about those musicians? Like what is it, we're talking about like world-class musicians who play on big pop records, R &B records, hip-hop records. What do you notice about them? How they interact and...
It is also, it's the last one, just for example, the last one of those that we're talking about was not good. So there's not always like, like, it doesn't even matter how great the music, but I would say like the thing that I noticed the most is 75 % of it is about like just.
like a groove and not showing off. think like, I don't know, I just notice how much they allow space for each other, I think. And are just are used to like, they're just listening. Like, you know, lot of the show can just be like this one groove with just like the tiniest subtle changes that are going out, going on throughout it. But like that simple groove sounds infinitely better.
you know, than you've heard it before, just because they're so good at that. But I think what I noticed most is just like them, the give and take is the main thing.
Yeah
Speaker 1 (37:11.724)
And then when it's not your turn to slow, like you're literally holding the space. Like, yeah, I'm gonna hold this space so you go do your dance. All right, I'm holding the space. Okay, now it's my turn to jump in.
Yeah, 100%. It's really good at like, and part of it is like predicting too. Just like, you've done it so many times that you can, it's just like a feeling that you get from other musicians. I think you just like can sense things on a deeper level, even than just what you're hearing directly, like when somebody is going to push or pull or like, I don't know. I feel like it's a very like, not to like get woo woo, but it's something like more
They're funny, it's-
Speaker 2 (37:48.686)
spiritual once you get to a certain level of like playing. think music always is, but like some people really know how to tap into that quickly when they've done it for so long. Like purely energy based kind of.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:01.674)
Yeah, I've always wondered, because I'm not sure I'll ever get there. I won't. I'm just going to say I won't ever get there. But like when you see, I've always wanted like as a great musician with other great musicians and you click and you have this moment where you click, what is the actual communication that's occurring? Because it almost seems like everybody's collaborating on this like synergy of sound and movement. But it's almost like it's almost like you said, though, it's but it's like
It's communicate, like you can see ahead. can like predict where everybody, like where things are going or pushing and pulling. To me, that's like a form of language. Like it's a form of communication that is non-verbal, although it's audio. It's like it's non-verbal, but when it's at the highest levels, it's radiate, it like radiates. It's awe inspiring. I think that's probably why people love live music so much.
Yeah, totally.
This is probably like, we're saying this, are probably like, duh, that's why I fucking go to shows, dude. Are you kidding me?
Well, and if you think about it, the better you get more acquainted, you become with your instrument, the more room you create to, I think, kind of like receive that other part of it. You know, like what once you're like, you know, your instrument, like the back of your hand and you don't have to think about that part of it. I think then your energy can be in tune with just like the kind of like spiritual whatever like
Speaker 2 (39:32.43)
But yeah, yeah, just the expressive part like you don't have to think what notes am I gonna play what right am I on what whatever and then you can just purely just be in tune with everything else and I haven't gotten there
Expression.
Speaker 1 (39:50.862)
I've the same thing about the computer, like using software. For example, Ableton. I think Ableton Live is an instrument for certain people to where once you get over the technical hump of learning what it does, you hit this next level of expression where I don't see it as like software anymore. I see it as like an instrument. It's a tool.
that I go into and I can do whatever I want in here and create things. But it takes that, like you said, it's like a barrier, it's like a, a barrier, but it's like a threshold. it is, it's time and energy and tinkering and.
I think don't want to take that time. don't want to most of the time. Especially now. just think I'm talking about a lot. I think there's some just like this is kind of the same thing, same subject, but also just in a grander sense. I think everybody is like I've been talking about social media a lot lately and success and whatever. fact that like sure everybody is deserving. I think
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:03.786)
as people, everybody is deserving whatever that means of success, happiness or whatever. But when you I think the whole thing with TikTok and social media is just like that idea has become too generalized. Like everybody thinks that they just deserve shit like. when you when you look at it in any other way, like, you know, like somebody can have been making music for like one year. But if they just do the right 30 second video, then it's like, well, I'm the shit now. And like
When you think about that in any other like context in life, I don't think it really works. And I think that people need to like kind of realize that a little bit. Like, I don't want to be that person that's like music is this ultra sacred thing and like, fuck you. Like you got to sweat and like bleed over it. But it's not like you can't just like go to school for half a year and then be like, I deserve to go to Harvard. Like, that's just not how anything else works. And I think there has to be a little bit more like
respect for like, yeah, for the work involved and like that just in the same sense of what we were talking about.
Speaker 1 (42:15.64)
This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Wally Opus. Wally Opus is an independent record label and an artist management company based in Evansville, Indiana, with artists located in Kentucky, New York, LA, and Indiana. Next Friday, August 1st, Leo Lovechild, he hails from Brooklyn, New York, baby. He drops his sophomore album on Wally Opus. It's called Skyscraper Country, nine songs.
It balances this line between alt-country, traditional country, the singer-songwriter movement from Greenwich Village that Leo is so attuned to or akin to or a student of. And the lead single off of it is titled Everybody Else, not to be confused with this podcast, but it is a damn good song and we are super stoked to be putting that out on Wally Opus next Friday.
Also, Leo's got an album release show the day before, July 31st. It's a Thursday evening. That's happening at Desert Five, also in Brooklyn. Check out all the details on Leo's Instagram, leolovechildmusic. Also now streaming is Eternal Brutopia, the third six pack from the hams drinking phenomena known as The Chugs. Brian Scott and Sam played a killer release show this past Saturday at
our academy in downtown Evansville. Sold out of vinyl, sold out of cassettes, sold seven cases of hams, and it was a packed house. It was a great night of local music and people coming together. I'm super proud of the Chugs. I'm honored to work with the Chugs. If you don't know the Chugs, you should know the Chugs. And you're either gonna love them or hate them. And that's what we love about a great project. And find out about all of our bands, all of the cool stuff about Wally Opus at WallyOpus.com.
the show.
Speaker 1 (44:18.882)
So you were saying that not everybody just deserves to be successful because they've had like a viral spike or like something like this. What I think that you're ultimately like kind of speaking on, something I've been thinking a lot about as well, is I think that like, it's almost like the wave, because somebody else said this about like promotion and music.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:41.302)
It's like that wave of like hacking the system to basically go viral or benefit you like really easily. It seems like all those routes or all those avenues are kind of like taken now, at least in an authentic sense. And it's easy to spot, right? And now we're getting back to some sort of like merit-based system where you earn, like you earn a reputation, you earn a career.
And this is what I think that so many people, this is what I think so many people have struggled with so long. People like you, people like other artists that I work with who have spent two decades developing your skills, developing your craft to think like this, like I don't know how to express myself in a world that rewards people for doing stupid shit or nothing, you know? And I'm over here, like, but like how do I earn a place when I'm...
dedicated to my craft and I'm developing like it almost becomes hopeless to some extent but I think that what you're talking about is like a shift in values where people value somebody who earns something somebody who has like a deepness like a story to tell like a depth to their experience you know versus just like BS
I think over time all that stuff is revealed kind of inevitably, but it is frustrating Yeah, I think when people do just like have immediate success It's usually later on something usually kind of As opposed is the fact that they haven't really figured it out, but Yeah, and like it's not even that I don't even so much about the success thing it's more just about like
as it
Speaker 1 (46:17.998)
Think earning it
Speaker 2 (46:25.164)
I think when people get that success, it's just like they just think they deserve everything. Like because you're just so used to that with like the attention. It's like that's how stuff works online. Like I get five thousand people liking this and telling me how great it is or these companies reaching out or whatever. But that's just like. That's just like not how everything works. It's like so it's own thing.
Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah, well I have I have an extreme you know me I have an extreme optimism that things are going to work out and I think that I think that We are heading back towards a place of like where those two worlds can coexist like the online and the real and Then people will value I think not everybody but more people will value and be able to kind of like people's bullshit Detectors are pretty high right now
Although it's hard to check what's real and what's not. People still, they seem to be gravitating towards what they know for sure is real. So I think that sharing stuff from an authentic place, having a real skill set, having a real experience that's rooted in time and energy and trials and errors and failures and success, it seems like it's gonna become attractive if it already isn't. It seems like that's what people are wanting to sink their teeth into.
Speaker 2 (47:54.222)
So long as you don't let that experience bring you down. you or like... Yeah. That's the other side of the coin. It's like, it's very easy to like kind of lose the like spark or the joy from all those experiences and time and whatever. And the key is to like be able to keep going with the same.
passion and whatnot just because other people are like blowing up around you and maybe you haven't. That's the hard thing is to just like stay true to yourself and be like
Yeah. Stay connected. Stay connected towards people who see you for who you really are, not for what the world sees or whatever, what the world values. Totally. I think that's why like, like we've always been drawn to each other. I say always, it's been two years, but like we've been drawn to each other. Aaron, just this whole group of people that has kind of formed around us. It seems like everybody is aware of that. Yeah. And is kind of seeking that.
even though
Speaker 2 (48:35.427)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:54.862)
Just support as people. Like, we're like, I don't really know where we fit in in this big scheme of things, but we like each other and we like each other's stuff and we want to support each other.
Yeah, exactly. And we fit in wherever because we're being ourselves and not fitting in just for the sake of fitting in. Like, I think that there's a place for everybody. But I don't know if you can find that place if you're like, just trying to fit everywhere at once. Right.
Yeah.
You know, and it's almost like your shirt. You come to Indiana and it's just like this, like to me it was a great experience to then go back out into the world and find a shirt that says back home in Indiana. And it's just like, I don't know. Like I just feel like, it's just like, just like owning what you have, owning who you are, owning your story. It's like, it's all you do have. This is it. Like this is all that makes you, that makes a person different and unique and like, who know? But you know, when you stick to that.
Who knows when things will work out? Who knows? The only thing that is true is to continue showing up, to continue working hard. It's like, you just like, going for it, going for it, going for it.
Speaker 2 (50:01.522)
listening, listening to the people around you. But don't, don't let that overshadow yourself because that's also easy to do.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (50:18.478)
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Everybody Else Podcast featuring Wyatt Moniz. Wyatt can be found on Instagram with his first name spelled backwards, T-T-A-Y-W. Please, if you listen to this podcast regularly, please do me a huge favor. This is the only thing I will ask is to go onto your preferred listening platform and give us a rating. Give us some sort of stars. And please be honest, I just would love more credibility and more action around the podcast.
Thank you for listening and for all other information, visit everybodyelsepodcast.com or check out my socials, Wes Luttrell. And we'll be back again next week.