Welcome back to the Inspired
Living with Autoimmunity podcast.
I'm your host, Julie Michelson.
And today we're joined by Sarah Turner,
co founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive,
a red light system that specifically
targets the gut brain connection.
Sarah holds degrees in clinical
neuroscience, psychological
sciences, and nutritional medicine.
And in today's conversation, we discuss
photobiomodulation and specifically how
to use light therapy to support health by
addressing the gut and the brain together.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
It's lovely to be here.
I'm so excited to just
pick your brain today.
And since we're going to be talking about
brains, this'll, this'll be good, but
I always love to hear personal story.
You know, how did you get to, how
did you decide I'm going to create
this amazing product that focuses
on the gut brain connection?
Sure.
Well, my trajectory is kind of
through maybe a lot of conventional
medicine, and then to alternative,
and now I've kind of settled on light
therapy as a good middle ground.
But I started off in
pharmaceutical research, actually.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, so when I, during studying at
university and then after I left,
I was at various drug companies,
Merck, Sharp and Dome, Glaxo.
I spent a fair amount of time
in inhaled product research,
so looking at asthma devices.
And I did kind of come across the
limitations of that kind of therapy
in, in a way, you know, it became
obvious, you know, that the drugs
are good for certain things, but for
these long term conditions, there
are a lot of limitations there.
And so I switched to do nutritional
medicine and I did that for a while
and I set up a little health food shop
and I had a nutrition consultancy.
But again, there were even
limitations there that I found.
So I then went on to look at
neuroscience and I studied
clinical neuroscience in London.
And after which time I went to California
and got involved in the whole biohacking
movement that was going on over there.
Which is how we met.
Exactly, at the Dave Asprey Biohackers
Summit, and actually that was one of
the places where I first started getting
to really understand this concept of
introducing biophysics into biology
and health, into a health setting.
And so I was working actually in Santa
Cruz, California on a consciousness
interface device, which is a fairly
out there fringe science way of
looking at information fields.
Wow.
That's a, that's a long way away
from pharmaceutical research,
it certainly is.
Yeah.
It's the two extremes really, because
in pharmaceutical research, you really
are kind of just following a program.
You're, you've got very specific
rules that you're following.
You know, you have to follow good
laboratory practice and it's.
you know, you're quite confined.
And then, you know, in this very
alternative fringe science, you know,
people are much more, you know, you're
chucking all of that out and you're
having to think about the body and
science in a very different way.
So I feel like I did the two extremes.
And then after doing that for a while, I
kind of wanted to come back to something,
which was a little bit more measurable,
because although the alternative side
is very interesting because we don't.
can't yet measure it, or perhaps,
you know, there's certain things
that are not quite right there.
It's very difficult to really get your
teeth into it and, and, say something
with kind of any certainty, you know,
there's a lot of, Oh, it could be this,
you know, and, and a lot of people
are open to that and that's great.
And a lot of people are helped by that.
But for me personally, I wanted
to do something that was much
more measurable, scientific, at
least in the sense that you can.
document these effects and present them
to people and, and, you know, speak
to the scientific community as well as
to the alternative health community.
So that's why I really, I am now
focused solely on photobiomodulation,
which is just this long word for light
therapy, because although the light
therapy, of course, it is a little bit
esoteric because nobody even really
knows what light is, you know, so.
There has to be, there has to be,
you know, some kind of intuitive,
open minded way of looking at it.
But for, at the same time, there is
a lot of very credible, validated
research, you know, there's, you know,
5, 000 peer reviewed studies on light
therapy for a health application.
So that's kind of where I've settled now.
I think I've found this
ideal middle ground.
I love it because I, it really is.
I always find it fascinating that
the, what I are really foundational.
Basics for humankind is now cutting
edge science and wellness care.
And so, and I, I think, you
know, you say light therapy.
I love the word photobiomodulation
because It, it is, it's about
changing our biology with light.
And so it's not just, you know, and there
are so many different kinds of light and,
and ways to use light to support health.
How did you kind of narrow down
into this gut brain connected area?
Yeah.
Well, as I said to you, I did, I have
a master's in neuroscience, so I was
already sort of fixated on the brain.
And then in doing a lot of this
biohacking, I made a biohacking
movie or at least co produced
it with a friend of mine.
I started to really understand
this whole connected body piece.
And, you know, if you want to
have a good brain, you know,
you can't, you can't isolate the
brain from the rest of the body.
That's just not how things work.
And so I got more and more interested in
a kind of systemic approach to biology.
And then this is especially important,
actually, in photobiomodulation,
because you're talking about
getting light to the organ.
You know, you're talking about actually
irradiating a body part with light.
And when you think of the brain, It's not
the most accessible organ in the body.
You know, there are a lot of
barriers, hair's a barrier,
you know, bone is a barrier.
It's kind of awkward to have this
thing, you know, shining light onto the
head, you know, the head is round, you
know, you have to have something that
contours to the, to the head to get, to
actually get a chance even of getting.
a very small percentage
of light to the brain.
So that's why I started thinking
one, there is a systemic, you know,
there's a systemic part of it in that
everything in the body is connected.
And then there's also a very
practical part of it in that it's
difficult to get light to the brain.
So if you really want to have the
maximum chance of getting a good
dose of light to the body, generally.
I think it's, you know, it makes sense
to access something like the gut where
you can deliver a lot of the light.
And, you know, the effects of that are
going to, you know, are going to get to
the brain that all the blood that's in
the gut is going to get to the brain.
The microbiome that's in the
gut talks to the brain, the
vagus nerve talks to the brain.
So from my point of view, the
whole gut brain connection is.
is important in all chronic illness,
but very specifically important
in photobiomodulation when you're
talking about getting light to
the brain, you know, which isn't
the easy, the easiest of jobs.
I love that.
And I, I really love the newer, seemingly
newer knowledge that, you know, that
this two directional, we used to think,
Oh, the brain is just in charge of
the body and sending all the signals.
And now we know, Oh, actually.
There is, it's a two way street and,
and a lot of stuff starts in the gut.
And, you know, we've covered on the
podcast many times before the importance
of gut health and autoimmunity
and, and immunity in general.
And so I, I love this.
It just makes sense now that
you've put it out there.
If we want to get to the brain,
you know, including the gut
in that equation is essential.
Yeah, you're right.
And from a point of view of immunity, you
know, a lot of the immune responses in
the brain, you know, do start in the gut.
A lot of neurotransmitters start in the
gut, like the endocannabinoid system.
You know, we know that that is a
link between brain immunity and
the body generally, and our body is
covered in these kind of receptors.
And all of these receptors, all
of these systems seem to respond
in some way to light therapy.
You know, even, you know,
the whole concept of.
inflammation, you know, we now
know a lot of brain conditions are
caused by chronic inflammation.
You know, if you reduce,
of them
most of them, if you, if you can kind
of reduce the inflammation in the
body, generally, you know, you've got
a much better chance of dealing with.
issues that you have with the brain.
So I think it is really super
linked to the immune system,
actually what's going on.
And I think the gut is playing such
a huge part in, in the immunity of
the brain and you're right, you know,
we kind of intuitively know this.
And a lot of people who are into
alternative medicine have been kind of
banging this drum for a long time, but
now in mainstream media, you know, if
you go on LinkedIn, there's always a
post there about a new disease that's
been linked to the gut brain connection.
You know, we know about Parkinson's now
there's an autistic spectrum disorder,
addictive personality disorder.
Every time people are starting to
say, okay, Alzheimer's, yeah, all
the kinds of neurodegeneration there
does to be this link between the
immune system, the gut and the brain.
which is, I just love this approach of,
okay, if we're really focused on brain,
you know, it's the inverse almost to,
to most of the conversations out there.
And knowing I'm Certified to recode
Alzheimer's and dementia coach and
knowing how essential, you know, the gut
health is to improving brain function.
I love, I love that you're doing this.
I want to talk a little bit.
Because as you said, light therapy
has become, you know, there,
there's so many different ways.
And what you're doing is really
unique and, and cutting edge.
And I'm sure there will be a lot
of, a lot of companies following
suit, but how do people know?
The different, I mean, there's so
many different kinds of light, like,
tell me a little bit more about how
the audience can become educated as
to what to look for in light devices.
And maybe, you know, certain, certain
lights going for certain things.
Yeah, you're right.
There are a lot of products on the
market, and I think it very much depends
on what your health goal is on which
of these products that you go for.
Because, you know, if you've got
like a bashed knee from an injury,
you know, you'd probably want a
different devices if you, if you've
got some kind of predementia.
So I think the most important thing
is to kind of decide, okay, what
is the main purpose for the device.
And then try and find devices, which have
some degree of flexibility, because I
think one of the main things that I found
out about, you know, like therapy is of
course, like travels in a straight line.
We know that, but this is very important
for looking at the body and treating all
different things on the body because the
body's not flat, you know, so the panels
are if you're a biohacker and you want to
keep your body in a very good condition,
but there may be not so good if you're
looking to really get to a specific area.
You know, if you want to get like deep
into a knee joint, or if you actually
want to kind of get deep into the
gut or very, especially if you want
to get into the brain, you really
need to have a device that contours
to the body, you know, that's round.
And so it would deliver light
in the way that aids maximum
penetration, because you've got
to bear in mind, you've got these.
straight lines of light coming in.
And then the other thing is also, you
want to look at the color of light or
the wavelength, because the longer the
wavelength of light generally as a rule,
the deeper it will travel into the body.
So you'll see a lot of the devices
on the market have a red light,
which is usually in the range of
like six, 600 to 650 nanometers.
And then a near infrared light, which is
usually about 850, 810, 850 nanometers.
And the reason why they have those
two colors is because red light
will only penetrate superficially.
So, you know, if you're treating
skin disorders or wounds or
something, red light is great.
But if you do want to get into
that joint or onto the surface of
the brain or into the gut, you do
need a longer wavelength of light.
So you need something that's
above 850 nanometers for that.
Okay.
And, and that's, I think,
essential for people to understand.
And like you said, it goes
back to what is your intention?
What's your goal?
And for me, I mean, and again, I'd
like, if we could all do all of it,
Yes.
that would be ideal, but I can't think
of any way in which it wouldn't make
sense to prioritize brain health, whether
you're a biohacker and you want to be
up leveling and protecting from decline,
or, you know, like we all, our brain
health is essential to our quality of
life, no matter what else is going on.
Yes.
Well, yeah, that, that's been
my take from the beginning.
You know, if you've got a good brain
and you are functioning well, you
know, you can deal with, with most
other things that are coming up.
You know, even pain, you know, if
your brain is working, if you've got
enough sleep, you know, if you, if
you are taking care of how you're
doing mentally, you know, all of these
things that the challenges become.
You can deal with them better.
So I think, yeah, prioritizing the brain.
And the way to do that is, you know,
treat the gut, prioritize the brain.
And then a lot of these other
health conditions kind of come
into focus a little bit more.
And you're right, the preventative
side, you know, we are, unfortunately,
you know, we're coming, you know,
we have a generation of people which
are facing a lot of dementia because,
you know, The rates are on the rise
for all, all many different reasons.
So yeah, kind of maintaining good
health as you age also, you know, by, by
treating your brain first and foremost.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For me, that seems to be, you know, where
I always start is with brain health.
And, and have you found at all you
know, if, cause I'm thinking, okay,
you're treating gut and brain.
And so people with gut issues,
I would imagine that the panel
on the belly is a great idea.
Yeah, it is.
And, and I actually myself,
I had a little bit of IBS.
Maybe you call it IBD in the States,
but you know, irritable bowel.
Both.
Yeah.
And I have found that that has drastically
diminished to the, to the point where
I don't notice that anymore and, and I,
and, but of course it's like, you can't
say, Oh, the IBS has gone back, you
know, and how does that affect the brain?
Because of course it, you know,
we, we've spoke about, you know,
you have this two way thing.
Once you're fixing that issue,
you're fixing the brain, you know,
the fogginess goes, you know, all of
that, the kind of anxiety piece goes.
So yeah, I think this, this
whole thing about gut brain.
You know, I'm sure that this is
going to be something that's treated
routinely in the future for all of
these different things, you know,
Gosh.
I hope so.
it'd be
that's why we're having
these conversations, right?
exactly right.
Because it's like Parkinson's, as
you've mentioned, you know that often
the gut symptoms come a long time
before the brain symptoms, you know,
Sure.
And I, I love that you just specifically
mentioned anxiety because anxiety and
depression are things that people tend
to, you neurotransmitter or something
going on, but that step to gut.
yes.
sometimes a bigger leap for people.
And I, I just had a conversation yesterday
with somebody was sharing a story
about a past client who didn't come to
me for anxiety, but really struggled.
She was a high functioning,
anxious person.
And through what we, you know, just
diet change and gut health support that
we were doing for her other issues.
All of a sudden her anxiety was gone and,
and this was a very targeted, simple,
it was gluten, you know, when she put
it back in and, and that's not uncommon.
I see it a lot.
And so it makes, I just want to kind
of drive home, you know, we're talking
about, I love focusing on dementia and
brain health and longevity, but also,
you know, the mood disorders really,
really are driven by gut health or can
right.
Right.
And it's so interesting now, all of
the discoveries they're making with the
microbiome, you know, because when you
think about the human body, you know,
we kind of take ownership of this body,
but actually, we're a lot less human
cells than we are bacterial cells.
You know, we're kind of
we're
A collage of all these different
organisms that all have their
different needs and wants.
So, you know, if you have a lot of
these kind of detrimental bacteria
in your gut, of course they're
putting out their own chemicals, you
know, they're doing their own thing.
And now they've kind of seen that.
A lot of people who have a lot of anxiety
disorders, depression, those kinds
of things, they a lot of dysbiosis.
There's a lot of this.
Potentially not so beneficial bacteria
and they're putting out compounds
that are getting to your brain, you
know, and then that's could be the
cause of some of the depression.
So some of this isn't really, you know,
maybe not even coming from you as in
you, the human, you know, it's coming
from your bacterial compadres that
are in there doing their own thing.
So tackling that, you know, really
getting to grips with your gut bacteria.
Doing all of those things, of course,
that could have a huge effect on
all of these different kinds of.
Moods, even, you know, something
as simple as being able to sleep.
I saw a really interesting paper the other
day about addictive personality disorder.
You know, a lot of people's
addictions, you know, the cravings
can be coming from, you know,
what the bacteria wants, you know.
Yeah.
I, we, I deal with that a lot with any
kind of yeast or Candida overgrowth
driving sugar cravings just, and we
all know sugar is really addictive.
We also know it's inflammatory but I
try to get people to shift and think,
okay, you know, as you're having
that, like, that's not you, you're
not the one screaming to be fed.
It's.
These, these other organisms and yeah, and
so it is, I mean, we, we just don't even
realize that we are not always in charge
yes.
And I think that's quite liberating
because the okay I, you know, I can do
something about this, because you know
if it's as simple as you know focus
on your gut bacteria really try to,
like you say, it's difficult to remove
the sugar because you've got these
creatures that are crying for the sugar,
because they're going to die if you
don't feed them sugar, which you want.
what they've all got their agenda.
So yeah, but it enables you to do things,
you know, like therapy has been shown to
change the microbiome, dietary change has
been shown, simple things like circadian
biology, you know, timing your body
more with the body's natural rhythms,
you know, enables those beneficial
bacteria to grow because, you know, they
have their optimal environments too.
And I would assume I'm not, this is
not scientific, but it just, in the way
my brain works, I think of, you know,
the red light or the light on the gut.
Nurturing the good bacteria,
those things that, that we want.
I always, I just think of
it as a positive thing.
I don't know the mechanism
of action, but I,
Well, you know, I
increase the good, there's
less room for the bad.
and, and I think actually at the moment,
because the science is so new, you know,
we don't entirely know how it's working.
I mean, there's a whole field
now called photo bios, which is
the study of light on bacteria.
And certainly in an animal model,
there does seem to be a direct
correlation If you shine light
onto a a rodent, for example.
And then do stall analysis, you can
see very directly a correlation between
shining light onto the gut and a change
in the microbe composition and that
probably is you are actually shining
light on the bacteria directly because
remember bacteria and mitochondria,
you know, probably have a similar.
Evolutionary history and, and the
mitochondria is, is really the
main light receiver in the body.
In, in humans, I don't know if we are
so sure about that because, you know,
humans come in different shapes and
sizes and yet light seems to have an
effect on the microbiome regardless
of, you know, how much light you're
getting into the actual gut area.
But I think you're right.
I think what's really going on is
you're Allowing the body to return
to a homeostasis where you have the
right conditions in the gut, you
know, you have oxygenated blood going
to the gut, you have a decrease in
inflammatory chemicals in the gut.
Then that enables, you know, you
create a good environment for
the good bacteria to proliferate.
So I think it, it could be that
you're shining light directly into the
bacteria, but I think maybe more likely
at this stage with the, with the light
panels and the light pads, is that you
are, enabling the correct environment
for those good bacteria to grow.
Yeah.
Which is, is, it is the same as diet
change and I wouldn't do one or the other.
I would do both, but that's
just, that's just my approach.
You know, support in, in
every way, shape or, or form.
Let's talk a little bit more
specifically about the Sarah Thrive.
Like, let's, because it is
different than any I've seen.
I've been in the biohacking
world since 2016.
I've seen a lot of.
Like you said, you know, the
light panels are popular.
I've seen like, you know, you name it.
I've seen a lot of
different kind of lights.
And so let's talk a little specific and
you mentioned some of the things already.
But for people who haven't seen
a prototype, or, you know, don't
don't know exactly what it what
it looks like and what it's doing.
Let's talk about that.
Yes, sure.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So, so the serothrive
device, it's a system.
So it's two devices actually.
So, you know, we've, we've kind
of spoken exactly why you'd want
to have a gut brain, a gut, a
clear brain and one for your gut.
So it's, it has a panel,
actually a flat panel with the
two wavelengths I've mentioned.
So it has the 630 and 850 light
that goes directly over the abdomen.
And then at the same time there is
a headband and the headband fits
very flush to the forehead where
you don't have the hair so you have
one less barrier to get through.
It does have one little unit that
goes on the back that you can kind
of just hopefully poke a little
bit under the hairline there.
And these are clusters and in these
clusters there is actually four
wavelengths, because In the brain I
think probably water is one of the
chromophores that's going to be important.
So after about 940 nanometers,
water starts to absorb light.
So in the brain band, there's the red
light to get the blood around the head.
And then there's also the 850 to penetrate
through the skull and then 940 and 1070.
So there's four different
wavelengths of light.
So you're getting to that surface of
the brain at the same time as the gut.
And then another thing that we can do
with the, with the light going to the
brain, which is very interesting is we can
pulse that light at certain frequencies,
because we know that the brain is
oscillating at certain frequencies.
We have certain brain waves that
are predominant at certain times,
depending what we're doing, you know,
whether we're alert and focused,
whether we're asleep, whether we're
kind of daydreaming, our brain is
oscillating at different frequencies.
And by providing the light in these
different frequencies, you can, you can
have an effect on the brain state there.
And this is interesting for those
conditions we spoke about for
things like anxiety, depression,
dementia, where people maybe get
stuck in a certain brain state.
So that's very, that's a very interesting,
like additional function or feature
of this device is that we can change.
Not only can we change the
wavelength of the light, we can
also change the, the rate of
oscillation, the Hertz oscillation.
So there are six different programs
in the Sera system for six different
brain wellness applications.
And I, and just because I've seen
the device, you mentioned the,
the flat pad and it is a pad.
So we talked, we touched on
earlier that you want something
that's going to form to you.
And so I was able to see all
different sizes and shapes.
Easily use their thrive at the conference.
We were both at and so I think
that I just wanted to loop back to
that where the difference of just
having a panel in front of you.
You have this pad that is directly on
it on.
Yeah, you can strap it, you can
kind of attach it with Velcro
and you can put the headband on.
And that was one of the other
criteria that I wanted because if
you said, you know, we're trying
to do all the things all the time.
But I think one of the barriers is if
you have to actually kind of sit by
an electrical output, you know, do,
you know, I know for me, you know, I'm
rushing around all the time, sometimes
carving out that time after you've done
all your morning routine and everything
else that the biohackers are meant to do.
It's just another barrier to the therapy.
So this has a rechargeable battery,
a shielded rechargeable battery.
So that, so that you can stack your hacks.
And you just mentioned a really good
point that I want to hit on because
I am, I'm that person who always
goes to the, but what about the EMFs?
And what about the Bluetooth?
And what about the, so
let, let's touch on that.
You mentioned the battery is
shielded cause that, you know,
you have a device on your head.
You want to make sure you're
not doing damage while you're
trying to do something good.
Yeah.
You don't want to do more harm than good.
You're right.
And so one of the criteria for
designing this device was that the
battery had to be totally shielded.
And I have one of those cornet meters.
That I actually gave to the
engineer and said, it has to always
be on the green reading of this.
And so, you know, they're kind of
looking at me as if I'm nuts, but
they kind of type in the spec.
And we had that down as one
of the criteria and then with
the app, it is app controlled.
So there is a Bluetooth that's
giving the command of whatever.
selection you might have for the
pulsing, but then on top of the
device, there is a disable switch.
So as soon as you've selected your
program, you disable the Bluetooth
onto the headband, and then there's
no Bluetooth going in or out of that
for the duration of the session.
And for, and you know, people
don't have to use the app if
they don't want to use the app.
If you just want to use it on,
program over and over.
Yeah.
that program which was
the continuous mode.
You don't even have to have the app.
But, but like I say, I'm quite happy that
with the Bluetooth disabled switch, you're
not getting any of that kind of non native
DMF that you don't want going in there.
And I think that's often overlooked
by people, you know, there's lots of
the, the, the more time marches on the
more gadgets and devices and wonderful
things that we, that we get to have but
also if you can't turn that Bluetooth
off, you know, the, the trackers, it
just drives me crazy, the, you know, I
have one that I've had for a long time
because I can, I can put it on airplane
mode and it's still doing its thing.
But it's not, it's not
doing anything to me.
It's just here for me.
And so that was actually one of my
most favorite parts of your, of your
device is like, wow, she really,
you can tell it's biohacker created.
Because these are the details, you
know, it's, it's like having to
me like hydrogen water in plastic,
like no, no, I don't want the
plastic, figure it out another way.
So I, I love that you really,
I think have covered all angles
and I believe I overheard you
saying you guys will continue to
add programs through time, right?
It has, it has yeah,
At the moment we have six programs
and they're ones that have been worked
out for a kind of basic functions
like focus, energize, meditation.
There's a balanced one in there, but
I've been working with some scientists
actually who are more on the physics
side that are looking at creating
apps to maybe activate certain
neurotransmitters or things like that.
Now at the moment it's
a little bit untested.
So you know that's.
Process that we're going through, but
I'm hoping if we can get some good
results with, with different kinds of
frequency programs, we can introduce
those as we get them developed.
And so the, the headband has been
designed so that you can update,
you can update the apps that you
want to use just through the.
The app on the phone.
So yeah, as new developments come up
and people say, okay, well, we think
that this way, you know, this frequency
pulsing, you know, maybe even a program,
you know, I know people who are very
granular in how they're, how they're
working out these pulsing, and it doesn't
necessarily have to be a straight line.
Right.
Hertz, like on and off.
And in fact, even in this device, we don't
just deliver, for example, if we're doing
10 Hertz, it's not just 10 times a second.
It's in a variable.
It's kind of 10 times a second
average, but variable because
the body's very variable.
You know, we know that the body likes
variation because within variation
there's flexibility and that's
why heart rates not consistent.
You know, that's why brain waves
are not consistent because the body
has a built in flexibility there.
So I'm hoping.
like flexibility equals resilience is
kind of how I look at, I know, which,
so I think that's brilliant that it's
not just, you know, a set specific, you
know, equally spaced kind of a pattern.
Cause then I feel like you
just get into another loop.
It's just a different loop at that point.
Yeah, and it's not how the body works.
It's not how the body processes
information, the body, you know, it
has information that, well, it seems
random, but it has a pattern and it has
a pattern for the reason, like you say,
it's resilience, it's flexibility, you
know, if you're sitting still and the
tiger would jump through this window.
Now I need my heart to
pretty much speed up.
let's get online.
Yeah
There needs to be that there needs
to be that variation, you know, and
if you're stuck in a repetitive,
you know, it's harder to change.
So, so definitely as we learn more about
how to deliver light, we can update that.
And I'd like to say I think this
is something that it's, this is the
piece that's taking off now because
people know that like therapy works,
but what is the best way to deliver
light, what is the best way to pulse
light, you know, Can you post different
wavelengths to get different effects?
So I think that's now where a
lot of the research is going.
And, you know, I think we can be much
more specific in the future about the
application of, of the different kinds of
light and the different pulsing schedules.
which is exciting.
And as you said, this is where the
research is going so that you know,
there will be more and more information
Scientific I do love you really are
Dancing that, you know, definitely
pure science, but cutting edge at the
same time and, and pushing barriers.
That's how we learn
and, and make progress.
So I am excited about that.
How, how do people find Sarah Thrive?
Thank you.
Yeah.
At the moment it's Sarah thrive.
com.
People can go to the
website, Sarah thrive.
com.
And then I have.
Most of the socials, I must admit
I'm not, I'm not brilliant on the
socials, but definitely LinkedIn and
Instagram and Facebook is there with
Sarah Thrive or the Sarah system.
But all of it can be accessed
through the website, sarahthrive.
com is probably the easiest
way for people to find out.
And I'm just sarah at sarahthrive.
com if people want to
reach out to me directly.
Which they should.
She's, you're, you're brilliant
and you're fun and, and you
make the science accessible.
You know, I can sit here and understand
what you're saying and I'm sure
listeners are understanding as well.
And it really is kind of food for thought.
I, I have a question.
Because you're the right
person to answer it.
You know, we're talking
about adding light, right?
The body receiving light
and specifically the brain.
Does the brain, do we emit light at all?
Yeah, we do emit light.
Yeah, we, we, we emit ultra
weak photonic emissions, which
is sometimes called biophotons.
And yeah, we're, we're emitting
biophotons all the time.
And actually this is maybe one of
the ways that light is working in
the brain because when you stimulate
the mitochondria, it's really the
mitochondria that are producing these
kind of ultra weak photonic emissions.
And so perhaps that's setting up a
cascade and it's a different communication
to neural communication, you know, we
already know that things are going on
in the brain far faster than the nervous
system can account for, you know,
there's something else going on and
people have put forward all different
theories, living matrix theory, maybe
it's a piezoelectric effect going on
there or so yeah, I think probably this.
The bio photons, which were actually
were discovered many, many years
ago, you know, the concept that we're
emitting lights, not a new one, you
know, that this is go, which is work.
This is for itself, but pop.
This is May when how, you know,
we're going back to the 1940s
and, and, and forward from there.
But yes, that.
All living cells emit light.
It's just very, very weak.
So you can't see it with the naked eye,
but there are machines called bio photo
multipliers that I've actually seen.
I actually went to Fritz Albert's
popped in Germany's lab when
he was doing the research.
And if you put like a cucumber
seedling, or, you know, if you
put a person in there, you can
see the light being emitted.
So yes, you're right.
And I think probably Dr.
Ann Lieber, one of the most prominent
researchers on photobiomodulation has
published a paper on biophotons recently.
And a lot of the researchers
are talking about it, Dr.
Liu Lim, who has the V Light product.
So, yes, we are emitting light.
And probably, you know, that's a
communication that we're maybe missing.
You know, you and I were kind of
talking Zoom, but we met directly
in person and probably had that
kind of exchange of biophotons.
Sure.
Well, and you.
You mentioned, you know, electricity
and energy, and, and so we know
we're sensitive to each other's
fields, and so, you know, I'm
sure light is a piece of that.
I mean, you think of, I think,
I don't, and this is totally
just my own, not scientific.
I just wonder if there is a need to.
A correlation if we'll discover down
the road, maybe not in my lifetime.
But, you know, kind of the, the amount of
light we're emitting, how it correlates
to health or or wellness or just energy
in general, you know, some people.
I mean, you know, you, we may not
see the actual light, but we're
definitely picking up on, we talk
about some people being sunshine and
some, you know, and some people are,
have what I would call dark energy.
And I wonder if light is a piece of what
we're receiving and we're just not aware.
Oh, for sure.
I think for sure.
And we already know that that cells in
different stages will emit different
kinds of light and a different degree of
light, you know, cells that are dying,
perhaps are putting out a lot more.
UV light, you know, we can
kind of measure certain things.
But, you know, because you need
these highly sensitive machines,
Sure.
doing the research.
But I think you're totally right.
We will find out, you
know, these kind of nuances
is the woo woo part that the science
will come explain eventually, to me,
that's how it all kind of connects.
Right.
Yes.
right.
It's woo woo until they
start measuring it.
And then all of a sudden it's
science, but there are people, you
know, in academic, you know, I know
there's a guy at Zurich university,
you know, who's, who's an expert in
biophotonic emission in bacteria.
So, you know, once that information
starts to filter down, you know,
then it will become interesting and
we'll, we'll start to get more and
more advanced technology in there.
I'm sure we will definitely
find a link between light
emission in cells and health.
Sure.
And then from there, potentially, you
know, because we already know that we
emit an electromagnetic field and perhaps
that's what you feel, you know, someone
comes in the room and you get the correct
Oh yeah.
the room and you think,
Oh, that's a good person.
You know, that's probably a mixture
of all different nonverbal signals,
including potentially light
including electromagnetic fields.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
I never, you know, I've thought
about the electromagnetic and
I've never thought about the
light, but it, it does make sense.
It so that's a, another fun part to
watch, but for now to me, this leap in
again, resources that we have that we can
use without going to a doctor's office.
I live with a doctor.
I love doctors.
I'm not saying they're bad.
I'm just saying anything we can
do for ourselves to support, you
know, and, and something like light
that, that has so many different
uses to me is just exciting.
It really is.
I think, yeah, I think you've hit the nail
on the head, really, we need to kind of
move forward with a bit of sovereignty of
ourselves and wellness, because we're the
ones, we're the experts on ourselves, you
know, and we have our bodies to experiment
on you, you know, you can kind of get a
feeling of if something's right for you
or not, or if you're on the wrong path,
or if you're feeling good or feeling bad.
But also I think as society gets
bigger and bigger, the health
systems in most countries are
straining at the seams a little bit.
You know, we do need to take that
responsibility and do as much as we can.
And, and, and why not, you know, why,
you know, the tools are available
now, you know, we have, you know, it
was probably like, I don't know, like
fairly recently that we've been able
to actually buy these devices and have
them ourselves think about lasers.
When they came out, they were like.
Hundreds of thousands of pounds and
you could only have them in a hospital.
Now we can have these devices in our own
homes and they're much more powerful.
So why wouldn't we kind of learn about
these ways of taking care of ourselves
Yeah.
No, it's I, I think in a being in
functional medicine, it's again, the
science lags behind when you're, we're
talking about scientific method, but we
know anecdotally when the things that
we're doing are working for people, right?
People get better.
I use light therapy.
I broke my shoulder five years ago.
And the Doctor said, which was just
rude, you know, oh, at your age it's
gonna take, it's, it's going to take
a long time for this to, to heal.
And I blew him away, you know,
and, and I didn't, I a, I didn't
take the things he told me to take.
'cause those are things I'm not
taking and you, he just could
not, could not believe how fast
in my fifties, my, my bone healed.
And I'm like, well, I have
tools that you don't use.
It's that simple, right?
Like, really?
Yeah.
you know, I totally, yeah, I totally
applaud that because, you know, every
time that you're taking a pharmaceutical
intervention, for example, there's
a price to pay down the road.
And I'm not, I'm not a big pharma bashing.
I mean, how can I, you know, I
worked there for a long time.
Well, no, and there's a time and a place.
place.
Yeah, there is a place and you do have
to kind of do a risk assessment every
time you do something, you know, because
you have to pay for taking, you know,
that's why we do have such an opiate
problem around the world because,
you know, you're kind of kicking the
problem down the road a lot of the time.
And a lot of these more alternative
therapies, like you say, using
nutrition, using light, you know,
kind of using outdoors even.
You're strengthening the body
rather than weakening it.
So you have to weigh it up because
these things, you know, you have,
okay, you're not going to get an
instant effect, but potentially you're
strengthening your body further down the
line versus potentially instant relief,
but you're then paying for it later.
So I think for every, everybody, make the
choice, but make good choices for yourself
because, you know, we're in these bodies
Hopefully long, a long time
and, and brains, right?
And again, it goes back to how do
you want to feel as, as you age?
Is there any, cause you, you
know, thinking of pharmaceuticals
and listeners know my story.
I mean, I was on 10 prescriptions at my
sickest because I needed most of them for
the side effects of the other prescribers.
So there's that downside
you were talking about.
Yeah.
But is there, are there contraindications
for, I won't say red light in
general, for, for the Serothrive?
Is there anybody who
shouldn't use it or any?
a good question.
It's a good question.
And there are kind of standard
contraindications that people say,
because I think, like I say that there
is a lot of research, but maybe people
want to err on the side of caution.
So, so there's a contraindication for
active cancer, for an example, because
they don't know, you know, because
red light therapy makes cells grow.
So potentially there could
be some kind of issue there.
Actually, there is a lot of data coming
out now that doesn't support that.
And it actually supports the body's
returning again to homeostasis.
But I think.
For safety's sake, and because, you
know, maybe the data isn't conclusive,
that would be a contraindication.
But mostly there are no known
side effects with this, and like
I say, there is a lot of data out
there, and really no side effects.
I would say one thing, that it does seem
to be what they call a biphasic dose
response, in that you can overdo it.
Okay.
that it's going to make you
ill, but you could potentially
negate the effect, the good
Okay.
I love that idea because so many people
have that mentality of, you know,
if good is good then more is better.
So I'm really glad you brought that up.
Yeah, and I think you need to
hit a sweet spot and I think
that's different for everybody.
It depends what kind of state your
mitochondria in, you know, if your
mitochondria pretty shot to bits,
if you've been ill or if you're very
elderly or if there's some reason
why you've become depleted, you
maybe need less light, you know,
you can maybe deal with less light.
And so for most people, I would
say, you know, gauge yourself
well, you know, don't go and overdo
Don't wear it all the
time because you can.
So wear it all the time just because
you can and don't think more is better
because actually, you know, a lot of
the studies have shown that really the
body responds to very low dose light.
And I think what happens is if you use
the light too much, or if you shine, you
know, red light into the gut too much,
your cells do start speeding up, but
they start to produce waste products.
And if you create too many waste
products that your kind of lymph
can deal with, or that your waste
removal systems can deal with.
Then potentially, you know, you're
not getting those beneficial effects.
So the Sarah thrive system in
particular is just 10 minutes and
it's like three to five times a week.
And, and
it's not even daily.
no, it's not even daily because
I also think, you know, maybe
the body does, the body needs to.
Regenerate or do its thing in between.
Yeah.
Because every time you, it's almost
like exercise, you know, you don't
want to do it all the time because
the body needs to cover in between.
But every time you do it, you kind of
strengthen a little bit further than
the time before, because you're shining
like the body receives the light and,
oh, I need to make more light receivers.
So it will do that, you know, if you
give it time and then the next time you
can tolerate a little bit more light and
then the next time and the next time.
So I see it very much like exercise.
You know, you want to
strengthen the body slowly.
And so let the body kind of adapt to
the light and not just use it, you
know, a hundred percent straight away.
And I think that's borne
out in the research.
You know, a lot of the data tends to show
that there is a middle ground, you know,
two little lights, not really going to
do much, just about the right amount.
It's going to have a great effect.
If you overdo it, the effect
starts to drop off again.
It's just, we can't say numbers, which
of course is what everybody wants.
But we're all different.
So how do you, how do you do that?
You can't standardize.
And, and I, yeah.
And that's where we need to give
a little grace and that anecdotal
stuff comes into play, right?
Like I know my body and
I know what feels good.
It it, and I love that analogy to
exercise because I, I meet so many people,
especially that have felt a decline
with autoimmunity that are, you know,
they will not give up their exercise.
Because that's where, you know,
they've drawn that line in the
sand and they're hurt there.
It's not serving them because
they're over exercising for
where their body is right now.
And so I love that, that, and we know,
and, and if you ask how they feel after
they exercise, they'll tell you terrible.
I'm like, well, that's information.
And, and, you know, so there's no
standard for, for a lot of these things.
Know, no, and that's
actually a hard lesson.
Actually, I found that hard myself
because I definitely was one of
those people that was maybe doing too
much because you hot yoga one night,
then I would do a Kung Fu class.
Then I'd be doing, because you kind of
have a mindset of, you know, you don't
want to let your fitness drop off.
Actually, you know, integrating
some recovery days is, Oh, what a
revelation is very beneficial, you know?
No, but it, it's, it was an important
thing to bring up and so I'm glad
you brought it up with the light too.
And then how do you, then you get
that where you can actually feel
the benefit of the exercise when
you have that rest in between.
right.
Yeah, and body actually gets that chance
to recover and repair, which, you know,
is a vital piece, you know, you know,
they tell you all the time in yoga, the
laying down, you know, this kind of,
Shavasana is my favorite pose.
It took me a while to get it and now
I think, yeah, you can apply that to
a lot of these different therapies.
You know, even with some of the
nutrition, you know, you don't want to
kind of do the same supplements over
and over again, maybe cycle things
through because the body, again,
it's that whole flexibility thing.
It likes to be able to rest and
recover, grow a little bit more,
you know, it's a cyclical thing.
So yeah, I think to, to kind of
come back on your thing about
contraindications, that that's really.
As about as much of a side effect
or a contraindication that there is.
So, I mean, certain things like epilepsy
potentially could be a contraindication.
about that.
I was curious.
Yeah.
Again, there's a lot of studies to
show that it, that photobiomodulation
is actually effective for epilepsy.
So I think it is a case of
doing the research and working
out what works for you.
I mean, certainly it's
not going into the eyes.
So all of
Right.
Right.
It's not like wearing a
mask with lights or, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, and the cancer
thing, I, I, I totally, I'm
familiar with the concerns there.
And, and I wouldn't, I won't be
surprised when science comes out to
say, no, you know, light is still okay.
I, we have a, I have a medical grade
laser and, and was using it on my
dogs and I, and my horses and myself.
And I had, and then I had a
dog diagnosed with cancer.
And so I, I did stop using it on
her because I don't know for sure.
Right.
And, and so
And with all of these things, you
know, we're talking, I mean, I, I.
I'm not qualified to talk
about medical conditions
Sure.
With all of these things, check it
out with a medical professional.
And if you've got someone
who knows about these things.
But I think more and more medical
specialists will start to look at this.
And you'll be able to see a specialist
oncologist or whatever the condition
is who will be able to kind of
guide people through the process.
But right now we're not really there.
So it's really.
And people to take their
own responsibility to do
their own due diligence.
And if in doubt, check it out
with a qualified doctor and then
you know that you're kind of
doing the best thing for you.
Absolutely.
Oh my goodness.
So I always ask at the end of the
podcast, For one step that listeners can
take today, and it can be anything so
it could be something we've covered or
not to start to improve their health.
Well, I would kind of encourage
everybody to take a bit of an inventory.
Of their light exposure over the day,
and maybe do it for a week, just do a
little inventory and see what was the
first light that you saw in the morning.
Was it natural light?
Was it artificial light?
And what about through your day?
Were you mainly in natural light?
Did you go outside?
And if you were in artificial light,
was it kind of, And in a fluorescent
office or kind of did you manage
to get yourself next to a window.
And just to gain a bit more awareness
about your light environment because
we're talking a lot about these devices
but actually a lot of these devices are
mimicking sunlight, you know, and, and
so a lot of the effect comes from giving
your body like that it can deal with and
it can manage you know if you are exposed
to too much blue light and it's ironic
we're kind of talking on this technology.
my blockers on.
Yeah.
It's daytime here so I'm kind of
data, but certainly in the evening,
yeah, put your blue blockers on,
you know, check all the screens.
But I think first of all, you need to
kind of see what you're dealing with,
because I think for a lot of people,
it's like the Fuji that you don't realize
until you start to really notice it.
pay attention.
Something very simple, like only
seeing artificial light first
thing in the morning could, could
really be a game changer for some.
Some people, you know, if you're someone,
if you're that person, who's looking at
the news before you've even got out of
bed, try a week where you don't do that.
And you maybe stick your head out
the window or even better go and
stand on your grass for 10 minutes,
do some Tai Chi or something.
I think I would, my first challenge
would be just take an inventory.
What, what light you've been
exposed to and how do you, did
you feel in each situation?
You know, if you're in this
fluorescent office, did you feel as
good as if you were walking outside?
Never, not for me.
About
But I think that's, it's brilliant because
we can't improve upon or make change
with when we don't have the awareness.
It's always the first step.
So absolutely brilliant.
Sarah, thank you so much.
You have given us a lot to
think about and to do today.
yeah, it's my pleasure and it was so
nice to see you again after seeing you.
Yeah, it was great.
Good to see you as well.
For everyone listening, remember
you can get the transcripts and show
notes by visiting inspiredliving.
show.
I hope you had a great time and
enjoyed this episode as much as I did.
I'll see you next week.