Chloe is an Advanced Sports Dietitian and co-owner of the Health Performance Collective. She also works with athletes including the Parramatta Eels Rugby team. If you want to progress in your running performance, you need the right advice around nutrition. Here are some of the topics we cover: Subtle symptoms that might relate to poor nutrition. Signs of a healthy nutritional balance What FODMAP and IBS is and how it effects our running Is there a relationship between diet and injury? The miscommunication with implementing a low FODMAP diet. Training errors that can lead to gut issues. You can follow Chloe's 2 instagram pages here: https://www.instagram.com/chloe_mcleod_dietitian/ https://www.instagram.com/health_performance_collective/ And more about her low FODMAP challenge here: https://www.instagram.com/thefodmapchallenge/ (Apple users: Click 'Episode Website' for links to..) Become a patron! Receive Run Smarter Emails Book a FREE Injury chat with Brodie Run Smarter App IOS or Android Podcast Facebook group Run Smarter Course with code 'PODCAST' for 3-day free trial.
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Today we have Gut Health for Running Performance with sports dietician, Chloe McLeod. Welcome to the Run Smarter podcast, the podcast helping you overcome your current and future running injuries by educating and transforming you into a healthier, stronger, and smarter runner. My name is Brodie Sharp. I am the guy to reach out to when you finally decided enough is enough with your persistent running injuries. I'm a physiotherapist. the owner of the Breakthrough Running Clinic and your podcast host. I'm excited to bring you today's lesson and to add to your ever-growing running knowledge. Let's work together to overcome your running injuries, getting you to that starting line and finishing strong. So let's take it away. said in previous episodes, I want to use this podcast as an opportunity to interview experts outside my realm of knowledge because I don't claim to know everything within and outside of physio and so this has led me to my interview today with Chloe McLeod. She is a sports dietician. She has a fantastic social media presence and I came across Chloe listening to her on other what she's sharing and her knowledge. And there was a lot of questions on there that I personally wanted to ask her. So use this as a good opportunity. And there's a lot of really dense information that you can take away to help your running performance as well. Chloe has this FODMAP challenge that you can find more info about on her social media platforms. There is a lot of misinformation out there about low FODMAP diets, particularly around the elimination diet and Once you're feeling a lot better with the elimination diet, just avoiding all FODMAP foods altogether and just continuing a life of low FODMAP, that's not the correct way to go about it. And so the FODMAP challenge explains that and is also just a really good opportunity to bridge the gap between accessibility to a dietitian from great information. Today we talk about symptoms a runner might get if they are having some minor or major gut issues. and some practical steps that can do about that. We also talk about the relationship with sleep and recovery and stress when it comes to running performance. The role FODMAP or IBS has for a runner, what the symptoms are, what's actually happening in the gut and some steps you can take to find out if that actually is the primary driver to your symptoms. But then towards the end of the interview, we discuss a little bit more about the performance side of things. should you be taking jails, when you should be taking jails and gatorade, how to practically implement that in say a marathon race, and then just some really cool practical tips outside of a race just in your general weekly mileage for you to not only start feeling better but performing better. So I was really excited to have Chloe on. Please follow her on social media if you really like the information she's delivering. I learnt a lot from this episode. branching out and interviewing experts from other fields. I'm going to start growing as a runner and growing on my running wisdom alongside you as well. So we're on this journey together and let's continue the journey. So let's bring on Chloe McLeod. Can you maybe just start where you came from with your studies and what led you to the position you find yourself in now? Of course. Um, so I studied at Flinders Uni in Adelaide and that was I've been a dietitian for about 11 years or so now. So whenever I think about that and say that, I always feel a bit old. But I decided to study nutrition and dietetics because of my mom, actually. So I've always been really interested in food because as a kid, I had a number of food intolerances. And then when I was trying to work out what I wanted to study at uni, my mom was like, what about nutrition? You like talking to people, you like helping people, you're interested in food. I was like, that sounds like a really good idea. And I didn't get straight into the nutrition and dietetics degree, the one in South Australia. I think it's the same across Australia actually, it's got a really high, it's a TER over there, it's ATAR in Sydney, and that's a very high score to get into. And so I got into health science, and then I transferred into the bachelor's degree and they do a third year transfer. And so that was just through studying hard and doing all those things. And yeah I guess over the years I've been lucky enough to have experience in a number of different areas of nutrition. So working in community health, working in aged care, working in a hospital, private practice and I guess then looking at what I do now which is a big mix of a number of things, which spans through private practice, working with sports teams, doing quite a lot more in sort of the media, social media space, whether that's for my own business or with food brands. And then also doing quite a bit of corporate health these days as well. So, okay. Nice mix. Yeah. It sounds like a little bit of everything. is that when you're in private practice, is that around athletes as well or just more of the general population? That's a little bit of a mix. So I, at the moment, I will only really see clients who are athletes. And that's regardless of if they're a weekend warrior moving into elite. So it will be that subgroup or people with gastrointestinal issues or food intolerances. So they're my, I guess, two. two or three key areas of interest. And so I'm lucky enough that I'm able to, not necessarily choose who I see, but be able to really focus on working with the people who need help in areas that I'm particularly interested in. And yeah, we're really lucky that that's the case. Yeah, cool. And I want to spend most of the time today focusing around like the running population and, more that recreational runner. We can talk about elites in, um, in a little bit, but most of the audience will be that recreational runner who, um, is training first anywhere between like the five K to marathons and ultras, but, uh, won't necessarily have a dietician on like by their side or on their team or anything. So, uh, I think today would be a really good opportunity to just delve into, um, some scenarios that they might undercut and like questions they might have. I thought I might start off with asking the question. There's obviously the big obvious symptoms that might lead someone to thinking it might be their diet, like say like diarrhea or excessive bloating, that sort of thing. But to start with, are there any like subtle symptoms or maybe indirect symptoms an athlete might be getting that they might not straightaway link to diet? Most definitely. few ones that really come to mind with that question are around frequency of getting sick. So if you're as a runner, if you're regularly becoming unwell, particularly getting upper respiratory tract infections, so like a cold, that's a sign that maybe your nutrition isn't quite up to scratch. If you're feeling fatigued on a regular basis or just not able to perform in your sessions as you either should be able to or as you previously were able to. that's another sign that maybe nutrition needs to be adjusted. And then also if you're a female athlete in particularly, if you lose your menstrual cycle, then that's another sign that maybe nutrition isn't up to scratch as well. And I think particularly the menstrual cycle one, that's one that's probably been getting a little bit more airtime recently, but sometimes when we're, when we're looking at whether it's weekend warrior runners or, some are late or a late athlete, sometimes that can feel a little bit normal in some populations. And I really want to, excuse me, emphasize that, um, that's not a normal thing is to lose that. It, it's actually really important. That you're getting that cycle on a regular basis. So yeah, all of those things can link back to, uh, to diet, to energy availability, to getting enough energy in the right times. Yeah. Great. It's good that you point that out because I think when, especially when you're talking about the, uh, fatigue, regularly feeling fatigued and decrease in performance, some people might attribute that to training errors or maybe their, their actual volume or their intensity isn't up to scratch. And maybe they need a bit of guidance with the performance side of things when, uh, it could actually be making things worse if it is the diet that needs a bit of, a bit of work. How about, uh, on the other spectrum, someone who might be undergoing, um, maybe some gut issues, but it is in their diet and there might be some red flags or something a little bit more serious that may not directly attribute to diet. Is there anything that comes to mind with that? So something that's more serious from a gut perspective, if you say you're getting some diarrhea, maybe you're getting some bloating whilst you're running, they're relatively common, but obviously a concern. I would be concerned about it being more serious if there was either blood or mucus in the stool, if it was happening outside of when the individual is running. So if it's only happening when the person's running then we can be a bit more specific and strategic in changes that we might be making but if the symptoms are happening outside of that then I think it's very worthwhile going and getting some medical advice and as I mentioned if there's particularly blood in the stool or if there's mucus as well, they're both indicators that something's certainly not correct. And when, when I say blood in the stool, it might be like red, like we think about with blood, but it also might be that your stool has gone very dark. So it's looking almost black and this is particularly more of a concern because it means that getting too graphic, it means that the blood has dried a little bit and it's coming from further up in the digestive system. It would be if it's still bright red. Okay. And can you, is there like a checklist or something that you provide for your athletes if, uh, that they can quickly scan through to see if they are on the right track or if a certain area needs to be addressed in relate, do you mean in relation to the issues? Yeah. Or just like, yeah, just in general with performance, is there, um, something you can check, let's say fatigue or sleep or, um, you know, bowel movements, frequency, that sort of thing. Is there like a checklist where they can go through and say, okay, maybe my diet does need a bit of tweaking? Yes, definitely. So, I guess to start with, it's checking in hydration, how much water is the person drinking each day. Hydration is absolutely key for performance, helping the individual stay well, helping reduce risk of gut issues. So that would be one of the number one things to check in on. Then looking at timing of nutrition. Does the person eat before training sessions? Do they eat straight after training sessions? Are they eating enough across the course of the day? How are they feeling? So are they sleeping well? And so maybe another sign coming back to your first question to think about, because when thinking about fatigue, sometimes we go, oh, I'm not sleeping very well. That's why I'm fatigued. but sometimes you're not sleeping well because you haven't eaten enough and then your sleep ends up being disrupted. So how well is the individual sleeping? What are their energy levels like? Are they performing well in their training sessions? Are they using any supplements or anything like that to assist with performance? And if so, are they using them correctly? So as an example, are they using maybe caffeine? Are they timing that correctly? what time of day are they, say, finishing their coffee intake for the day. So I think that like going through, not just looking at what the person's eating, but also what's going on around them as well. And one of the things to just to digress a little bit, one of the things I will often talk to people about is that bucket of how much space I've got for all of the things that are going on in their life. And I think this is particularly important for more recreational athletes. So, you've got your running. So that might be if you're training for half marathon or a marathon. So you've got all of your different running sessions in the wake, plus hopefully you string sessions as well. Then you've also likely got work and or study. Then you've also got family, friendships, relationships. And then within all of that, there's all the other things that we need to do as a part of life. And so when we're looking at that bucket, if the person is, is starting to feel fatigued if they're not able to maintain their training so much, that would be when I'd say maybe their bucket is starting to overflow a little bit. So what's going on in their life that's causing that overflow and where, where can we put some tweaks in to, to help them get, get things back on track again? It sounds like that can be a big link to stress as well. If they are overflowing that bucket with their regular routine, trying to squeeze too much in at once and not allowing time for recovery and just to restore. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, in today's society, it's, I think a lot of us are guilty of trying to fit too much in to a day. But being aware of what's going on and how much you're able to take on and then getting help if you're needing help. with managing all of the things that are happening is it's going to help with you feeling better on a day-to-day basis but also help with that running performance as well. Yeah so true. You briefly mentioned eating before you sleep or having that regular routine and I'd understand it's different for everyone but do you have any recommendations for the general runner when it comes to the right time to eat before bed in order to Get the right sleep that they need Yeah for sure So I will often recommend aiming to finish eating a couple of hours before bed if possible So what I mean by that is say the individuals planning on going to bed say 10 o'clock Or get to sleep at 10 o'clock then I'd suggest aiming to finish eating dinner and anything like that by that 8 p.m. So that two-hour gap then allows enough time for the food that's been eating at the back end of the day to be digested so that the individual is then not left feeling quite full when they go to bed or feeling heavy when they go to bed. There's a couple of caveats to that. So in particular, if they're training late in the evening and so they've got a job that's got relatively long hours and maybe they're in particularly from a training session until 8.30 or 9 o'clock and haven't yet had dinner, particularly if they've trained, I'd still be recommending, well you're going to be needing to eat something when you get home because if you're not eating anything after that training session that's going to have an impact on recovery and then not recovering so well and then that can have a flow-on effect of then potentially not sleeping so well overnight because of not having that fuel come into. help the muscles to recover and help to rebuild the muscles and that can obviously then have other flow-on effects but it's also about just picking and choosing what you might have. So you say that's a Wednesday night that you know that you're always going to be training a bit late, getting home a bit late, maybe Wednesday night dinner is something that's a much lighter meal than what you'd have on the other nights during the week and other nights when you're finishing things up a little bit earlier that's when you'd have something a bit more substantial. So as an example, that lighter meal might be like a quick omelette with a couple of slices of toast. So yes, it sounds a bit more like a breakfast, but that's something which a lot of people find doesn't seem to sit so heavily on the stomach. Or alternatively, it could be making up a smoothie because we know liquids digest much more quickly than solid foods do. So if we're looking at something which is going to be digested a bit more quickly before bed, it can work really well. And one of the other things I will often suggest, particularly if it's an individual who is either struggling to sleep or if it's someone who we're needing to get an extra small meal in because they've got quite high energy requirements, is I'll often recommend having a source of dairy before they go to bed. And by that I mean, yogurt and or milk. And the reason being is that the proteins in yogurt and milk, can help with secretion of melatonin, and that's the hormone that helps us to sleep. So because of that, particularly if this person is struggling to sleep, it can just be that extra little bit which assists with sleep, and also consuming that milk and yogurt before they go to bed. It also helps with protein synthesis overnight, so it helps with keeping the muscles nice and strong. It helps with that recovery process overnight as well. Is that why... people drink that big glass of milk before bed in the cartoons when I was growing up. Is that what that's all about? Yeah. That whole, that old wives tale is one that's actually got a bit of substance. It's great. Oh, cool. Great. Brilliant. Some good practical tips in there for the audience. That's awesome. Some people might or might not have heard of the FODMAP abbreviation. Could you maybe just describe, first of all, like what FODMAP is and how it is different from say, IBS symptoms? Well, yep, so FODMAP stands for fermentable oligosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides and polyols. And these things are different compounds which are found in a variety of different everyday foods and they are linked with IBS. So for people who are sensitive to FODMAPs, if they consume too much of them that can then result in IBS symptoms. So as an example, some high FODMAP foods include apples, onions, garlic, bread, pasta, milk, mangoes. As you can hear, it's a pretty large variety of different foods and all of which are often quite healthy foods as well. And it's not that the person is allergic to these foods and can't have any, it's that the person is intolerant. to this particular compound. And for those individuals, we need to work out which FODMAPs they're intolerant to. And if they over-consume them, that's when they end up getting IBS symptoms. Okay, and what are some of those symptoms that people might not be aware of? So symptoms of IBS include bloating, diarrhea, constipation, feeling like you're not finished when you go to the bathroom, urgent bowel motions. and can often also result in pain and wind as well, and also pain in the abdomen and wind as well. Okay, so what's actually going on in the gut when someone might be getting bloating or wind? Yeah, so what's happening is, so with the FODMAP, so they're different types of carbohydrates which are found in the food. So what happens is sometimes that compound will move down through the digestive system and then it's... it will actually start to ferment in the gut and as a result that can then cause a production of gas or overproduction of gas particularly in susceptible individuals and that's where then that bloating that wind and that pain can sometimes start to happen. In other instances what happens is the FODMAPs null absorb which means they don't absorb properly and as a result to help with keeping homeostasis in the gut. it actually draws water into the large intestine and as a result that can then cause diarrhea. So as an example, lactose intolerance is where lactose is malabsorbed, so that's why that will often result in diarrhea. Whereas with something like an oligosaccharide, which is the type of FODMAP, which is found in onions and garlic, that's more likely to ferment in the gut and cause more of that bloating and that wind and that pain. Okay. Wow. Um, is there in my experience, cause I've been following a low FODMAP diet for, um, about a year now, and I went and had breath tests to see if there's, um, if there were any, um, positive sort of results. And I, I meant, I've heard you on another podcast and you quickly mentioned that the breath tests aren't really that sensitive or, um, specific to, uh, identifying. Is there any. tests that we can do or is there anything that we can maybe use to calculate what sort of foods we can and can't eat and what we are reacting to and not reacting to? So I guess there's a couple of things to answer in there. So with the breath tests, what's been shown is that the results of them are not clinically significant in that. the amount of solution that is given in these breath tests. It's basically, it's sort of gonna end up being, of course you're probably going to end up getting symptoms. And the research around them has shown that you're better off doing an elimination diet rather than doing the breath tests. So the elimination diet is where you remove high FODMAP foods from your diet for two to four weeks. And within that time, you'd expect to see an improvement in symptoms. And then after that, you move through a series of challenges. So you can determine which FODMAPs you're sensitive to. So as an example, I mentioned lactose before. So in the lactose challenge, we reintroduce lactose back into the diet. I'd usually recommend using just standard cow's milk for that. Fat content doesn't matter. and starting out with a half a cup of milk for a couple of days in a row. And then if everything's going really well, then you might increase that up to three quarters of a cup or a whole cup of milk. And if over a five day period of having that every day, none of your symptoms come back, that would infer that you're not sensitive to lactose being that type of flood map. If symptoms do come back at all in that time period, so if any of your... you're bloating, you're diarrhea, et cetera, et cetera. And if any of those things come back, then that would be fair to say that, yes, you likely are sensitive to that FODMAP. And it's not that you can't have any, it's that you are sensitive if you have too much of it. So sometimes degree of sensitivity can change as well. So some people might have a reaction to lactose on day one having that half a cup of milk. whereas others might not react till day four when they're having a full cup of milk. So that's why it's important to move through these challenges so you can see your individual level of sensitivity and also why it's actually important as well to retest things because it's very common for symptoms to change over time and sensitivity to change over time. I guess just to give an example of that, I've seen with a lot of my clients, when they go on holidays. So they might be super sensitive to a whole range of different things. Then they go on holidays and they can handle everything. And the reason why this is important to consider is because stress actually plays a really key role in irritable bowel syndrome. Um, and if you think about, like, if we bring that back to running, if you think about prep before a race, when you're feeling really nervous, sometimes it's like, I have to go to the bathroom again. Um, And that's that stress response. And how some individuals respond to stress is by needing to evacuate their bowels more regularly. And this is the same sort of thing that can happen with IBS. Day to day life can be busy and stressful like we were talking about before, that bucket is getting pretty full. And so you can end up being more sensitive to certain things, but then as that bucket starts to empty a little bit. Um, maybe you end up being less sensitive to these things because that level of stress is a bit lower. Good point. I think holidays are good for everyone. I even have, um, I have some people with like say chronic low back pain that have been in back pain for, you know, 12 plus months and then they go on holidays and all goes away because, uh, stress is a pretty key indicator for, um, ongoing chronic pain as well. So if that's ever happened or if anyone else's experience maybe better digestion when they're going on holidays, there's your answer. Yeah, exactly. It's a fascinating thing and you know, if only we could be on holidays all the time. Yeah. I did want to mention as well, you said that you've been on a low FODMAP diet for a whole year. So I would recommend starting to reintroduce some of the higher FODMAP foods back in, just because long-term avoidance of all the high FODMAP foods isn't recommended. because it can actually change the type of bacteria in your gut. It's also quite restrictive and it can make it harder to meet some of your other nutrient requirements. So if you haven't already started to introduce the high-flag mac foods back in, I would encourage you to do so. Yeah. I was eating a little bit of like say sweet potato and some other vegetables like broccoli, um, and just keeping to low amounts because I knew I was okay with that. But ever since listening to one of your podcast interviews on another podcast, I've been having a little bit more freedom of putting more things like in small amounts throughout my diet and seeing how I feel because, um, it made a lot more sense, but it also decreased. Oh, well, it reduced the, um, urgency. I guess you could call it. As soon as I saw like a little bit of onion, I'd freak out or, um, I'd make sure like if I go around to my mom's for dinner once a week, I'd make sure it all has to be really low FODMAP. And when I was out, I was stressed about what was in certain foods, but that's calmed down a lot after talking or listening to you and your advice around it should be, it is a tolerance. So you'll have a certain amount that you can tolerate. And as long as you stay below that and then sort of start to slowly reintroduce and see how things feel, you're getting a more nutrient dense. well-rounded diet and it's okay for the body just to slowly adjust to a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more and seeing how you feel. So thank you for that. Pleasure and that's really great to hear that that's something that you've already started to do and glad that I was able to help with that from afar. Yes, I was good with the breath tests. I did. I did take the. lactose one and it did come back like completely negative like nothing was happening. Does that mean that I still might be lactose intolerant? I think it's unlikely that the lactose one is probably one which is to a degree used a bit more the other ones like the ones for the polyols and the fructose and the other FODMAPs tend to be the ones which have been shown to be a little bit less useful. Rather than guessing though, what I would suggest is just try having some of the lactose containing milk a few times and see how you go and do that challenge for yourself so that you can work out where your tolerance might sit. And if it means if you've been having lactose containing dairy and not getting any issues, I'd say well then you're probably fine. But if you haven't been, do that little test, check it out and then that'll give you the information you're after. Cool, cool. Is there, let's just say a runner has just very mild symptoms every like, let's say mild wind or bloating. Can that start to affect performance at a high level if they just, I guess, put up with it and don't address their diet? I think it's important to remember that mild wind and bloating are actually really normal. So to feel a little bit bloated sometimes is normal. To be passing wind is also really normal. It's only when you're feeling bloated to the point that it's uncomfortable, sorry about that, that it's uncomfortable and is having a negative impact on your life, that's when I'd start to be getting concerned about it. Or if you're passing wind, but really regularly and it's quite foul smelling as well. that's when again, I'd be getting a bit concerned, but passing wind sometimes and feeling a little bit bloated sometimes isn't anything to be concerned about. I guess probably where is something to start to get concerned about is if when you are going for out for your runs and you're noticing that you're feeling bloated, feeling uncomfortable, and then maybe needing to find a bathroom because you're needing to go to the toilet when you're out running. that's where I'd say, okay, well, is there anything that we can do with your diet to adjust your intake so that you're not then getting those symptoms when you're running? So yeah, does that make sense? It does. Yeah, absolutely. And it's good that you sort of dethrone a lot of these things as well if there is a little bit of bloating, a little bit of wind, just to know that is completely normal because that can help. settle down a lot of concerns that people might have. I've read a couple of blogs and listened to a couple of people and I don't know what really to trust but there can be some intolerances or symptoms that lead to say inflammation of the bowel and that can, if you lead to, if that has a chronic nature and you just continue ignoring those symptoms. If you have say chronic inflammation and it leads to just chronic inflammation in the body. Can that start to ripple out to other joints and other functions of the body and other say running injuries per se? Have you found any link with that? So are you meaning if somebody is having some gut issues and then they're continuing to train at a higher level and if that could then result in a problem with their joints, sorry, is that what you mean? Let's say, I actually don't really know what I mean, but let's just say someone is under chronic inflammatory, they have inflammatory markers from their diet and they are continuing to perform at a higher level, are they at any risk there? Um, so I guess there's a couple of things I'd look at then. So if their diet is quite poor quality and full of foods, which are potentially going to lead to inflammation and they're still performing at a high level, I would first of all be saying, well, let's get the diet sorted out so that ends up not being as much of an issue. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't be wanting to suggest that training and eating is then going to be leading to joint pain and inflammatory joint issues because whilst what you eat certainly has an impact on how the rest of your body feels, there's not evidence that indicates that what you eat is likely to cause an inflammatory joint condition. So that's that. thinking of something like rheumatoid arthritis. That's an autoimmune condition, and we don't know what actually causes something like that, or a condition like that to happen. I guess, regardless of what else is going on, if the diet is poor quality, then that can cause a variety of different outcomes. And the better quality of the diet, the better the person is likely to be feeling. There's loads of great research around diet quality and gut health and the importance of making good nutrition decisions in supporting good gut health. So... that would be more where I'd be focusing on rather than suggesting that a poor diet is going to cause inflammation in the joints. Like, yes, like we know that a better quality diet can help with a variety of different factors, but, um, to suggest it's causing an inflammatory joint condition, I'd be very hesitant to say that. Yeah. Okay. And if someone does have chronic pain to say in their knee and they are experiencing like a fluctuating symptoms. We can't necessarily link that to diet or inflammation in the gut. I guess the relationship between inflammation in a joint and inflammation in the gut don't, there's no relationship there. Well, I don't want to say there's no relationship, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that what you eat, the research is yet to show or doesn't at this time show that what you eat is causing an inflammatory joint condition. That said though, we know that making better food choices can help with inflammation and if we're sticking with the joint condition side of things, so whether it's something like osteoarthritis, which is where there's the damage to the cartilage or if we're looking at a more inflammatory joint condition like rheumatoid arthritis. We know that what we can eat can have a big impact on both of those conditions. Okay. Um, it's not because it's causing the tradition, the condition, and it's not going to cure the condition, but it can help with management of the condition. Yeah. Okay. Good point. How about sugar? I've heard that excess amounts of sugar can cause inflammation. Is there much link? Is there much link to like gut symptoms? and also the rest of the body when it comes to high intake of sugar. So what I guess what that's talking about there is that if you're consuming lots of high glycemic index food or drinks, so say like a soft drink on a regular basis, what that actually does is that can cause a spike in your blood sugar levels. And when we're looking at the, like the size of sugar in your like in your blood compared to the other things in your blood, the sugar molecules are actually quite big. So if you've got high blood sugar levels on a regular basis, that's actually more likely to end up causing some damage to your blood vessels. And as such that inflammation. Now in people who don't have diabetes, so in, I guess the majority of the population whose insulin is working well, what happens when you have that high sugar food or drink is your insulin levels will also then spike as well to help with bringing your blood sugar levels back down and transferring the blood sugar, the sugar in your blood into your muscles so that it can then be used as a source of energy. So yes, it can cause some inflammation, but also it's important to look at what else is happening for that individual as well. I would also say though, in a runner, having something like a Gatorade or your carbohydrate shell. They're high sugar sports foods, shall we say. And they're actually really important if you're doing a marathon or an ultra marathon or even a half marathon, because you need that high GI sugar in order to have that continued energy availability so that you can perform. So, and to perform at your best. So... something which I will often have people say is that, Oh, you know, I could, I could go out and I can run a half marathon. I don't need to have a gel or I can go out and I can run my marathon and I don't really need to have anything until I'm at 25 K in or whatever it might be. It's like, yeah, you can do that, but could you do it better if you had your gels or your sports drink earlier on in your race or earlier on in that training session so that you can get better quality performance and that's what that carbohydrate intake during physical activity is all about. It's about making sure you've got enough energy, first of all, to finish the session if that's what you need. But second of all, to help you to finish that session at better performance and better quality. Is it trial and error to determine when they should be taking their gels and how much Gatorade they should be taking during a race? I would always encourage everyone to practice what they're going to be doing during a race in training sessions beforehand so that they can work out what works best for them. The amount that's recommended to consume is anywhere from 30 grams up to about 90 grams. I've found that most people tolerate well and perform best at around 50 to 60 grams as runners. cycling has a different impact on the gut than running does. Um, so, but that 50 to 60 grams is really well tolerated by most individuals over time. So as a starting point, say, for example, I remember when, um, when I was training for my first marathon and first time I had a gel, I could only start make half a gel at a time without feeling really unwell. Whereas over time of practicing eating the gels and getting used to having them, it's also getting your gut used to having them and training your gut to be able to easily digest something like a carbohydrate gel, which if you're following a healthy diet, wouldn't be eating or drinking foods like that on a regular basis. So it helps with training your gut so that you're better able to digest it. And by the time I was... doing the marathon, I could quite happily have the whole gel at a time because my gut had gotten used to having that carbohydrate gel and that's what everyone can do. Yeah. And how did you determine when to have that gel throughout that marathon? Yeah. So if we're looking at aiming for that, say 50 grams of carbohydrate per hour, the average gel has around 25 grams of carbohydrate in it. So if you're then aiming to include two gels per hour, throughout the marathon, let's say ballpark, it's taking you, let's say four hours. So then if you think about how you're going to be spacing those out, for me, what I'd like to recommend people to do is start early. The reason for that is, as soon as you start to get fatigued, your gut isn't as good at absorbing carbohydrates any longer. So by starting earlier, it means that before you get fatigued, before you get a little bit dehydrated, you're able to absorb and digest the carbs in those gels more effectively, which means back end of the race, you're not going to be going, gosh, I've got to get these in because I'm out of energy. You started had a bit more early on, which means back end of the race when you're more fatigued, not absorbing things as well. Yes, you still need to have them, but it's not as imperative to get it in because you're not running out of energy. Yeah, great. Fantastic. If there's an athlete that doesn't have any, um, say IBS symptoms or irritability in the gut. Um, but they would like a more well-rounded performance approach. Are there any tips on nutrition or common like supplements that you might suggest? I know everyone's a little bit different, but, uh, generally speaking. Yeah. So I think when looking at running, um, number one thing is the carbohydrate. So ensuring that there's adequate carbohydrate consumed during the race. to allow for optimal performance. And so that's using that spacing out strategy that we were just talking about before. Otherwise from a specific supplement perspective, in endurance sport, caffeine would hands down be my favorite thing to recommend. And the reason for this is caffeine reduces your perception of effort. So it helps you to be able to push a bit harder without it feeling any harder. And that can give you a performance benefit. depending on the individual and how well they respond by a few percent. So if we're looking at how you're performing across the race that can end up being a pretty decent lack of time. There's a number of different ways of consuming caffeine. So coffee is probably the most common way which should be more likely to be consuming before a race. And again practice this in training You can get a lot of caffeinated gels these days, or you can also get caffeine strips. So I'm not sure if you've seen the Rebbi's caffeine strips. So they come in 40 milligram or 100 milligram strips. And depending on the individual's body size would depend on which size I'd be recommending. But for most runners, the 40 milligrams, a good place to start. Just because it's a lower dose and it's a good idea to go with a lower dose as a starting point and then work on increasing that if need be over time. So with caffeine that's a less is more rather than a more is better approach. And outside of a race per se, if someone just loves running and runs, you know, four or five times a week and isn't training for anything in particular, but wants a good well-rounded diet, are there any suggestions there? Yes. So I would be suggesting. A couple of things that you can do to ensure that your diet is well-rounded is number one, look at how much vegetables you're consuming. The statistics says about 7% of Australian adults eat enough vegetables on a daily basis. So that's not a very big part of our population. So number one, check in on that. We're aiming for at least five serves per day, with a serve being a cup of salad or half a cup of cooked vegetables. A good way to look at vegetables and just plant foods in general is there's a really great research paper that came out a little while ago that recommended consumption of 30 different plants per week for optimal gut health. And we know that optimal gut health can lead to better health in general as well. So if you can count up how many different plants you're eating across the week, so that's not just vegetables, that's fruit, nuts, seeds. legumes, whole grains, et cetera. All of those things are all included in that 30. So if you count up and say you're eating 15 different plants in the week, then maybe aim for 20. And then over time, aim for 25 and then aim for 30. Or if you're pretty close to 30 already, then aim to get that 30 in. And this is just gonna help with incorporating a more diverse array of different plants into your week, which then helps with improving. health, overall. Runners like a challenge. So I think we've just set one there. That's a really good number to hit. I did have written down as our last question, if there are any training errors that can lead to gut issues. But I think you did mention at the start, making sure recovery, reducing stress, sleep, that kind of thing can be some training errors. But before we go, is there anything else you might wanna add to any training errors that might lead to gut issues? Yeah, so I'm trying to train under fueled can certainly lead to guy issues. So, um, ensuring that looking at what the different trading sessions you have in your week are and yes, there's certain sessions, which can be a good idea to do faster. Um, and that's maybe a chat for another time. Um, but if you're looking at a session where you're aiming for performance and quality, or if it's a, a longer session. where you're going to need to have eaten something beforehand than eating something beforehand, but also trying different things so you can work out what suits you best from a nutritional intake perspective so that you know that you're not gonna be eating something, training, and then suddenly, suddenly you're having to make that stop at the bathroom for that urgent bowel motion. Yeah. So trial and error is a, is a good way to go. Um, we're choosing what you're going to, to have beforehand. Probably my go-to's would be a banana, banana smoothie, um, some oats, maybe some muesli, um, that those things are usually pretty well tolerated by most people, um, with a few small tweaks here and there. I am planning on doing a podcast episode on the relative energy deficiency in sports. And I guess that is a little bit of the, what we've discussed today being under fueled, I guess chronically under fueled, uh, with performance. Um, so, um, looking forward to touching based on that Chloe, uh, you're, you've got a fantastic Instagram page and it's Chloe underscore McLeod underscore dietitian, um, is there any other links that, uh, someone might go to, to find out more about you? Yeah, for sure. So if you were to check out my two business Instagrams as well. So there's also health underscore performance underscore collective. So that's the nutrition consultancy business I run with another dietitian Jessica Spenlove. And that's where we do the things I was talking about the start of the business of the start of the podcast. So and then I also run an online course for people with ideas called the FODMAP challenge. and you can find that at the FODMAP challenge. Awesome. Thanks for coming on Chloe. Like I mentioned throughout the episode, the knowledge that you're delivering is making me feel a lot better about my diet and making sure I'm not stressing out about too much and making sure my FODMAP diet isn't completely at zero. I'm starting to introduce a lot more nutritious foods and having a lot more variety in the vegetables that I consume. So, Personally, I want to say thank you, but thanks for coming on and sharing your knowledge because I know a lot of runners they love running but don't delve into other aspects like sleep and stress and diet that will definitely impact their performance and Can have quite a lot of consequences if it's mistreated. So yeah, thanks once again for sharing your wisdom and Look forward to seeing what you have planned coming out in the future Thanks so much Brody and really appreciate the kind words and feel very fortunate that I'm able to make a positive impact and really lovely that it's had a positive impact for you. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Running Smarter podcast. I hope you can see the impact this content will have on your future running. If you want to continue expanding your knowledge, please subscribe to the podcast and keep listening. If you want to learn quicker, jump into the Facebook group titled Become a Smarter Runner. If you want tailored education and physio rehab, you can personally work with me at brea Thank you so much once again, and remember, knowledge is power.