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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one size fits all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please join me as I
ask what's leadership?
Welcome to What's Leadership?
My guest today is Richie Reseda
and Richie was freed from prison
in 2018 is an Abolitionist,
Feminist, producer, and organizer.
He co-founded Question Culture, a social
impact record label; Success Stories,
a transformational feminist program for
incarcerated men chronicled in the CNN
documentary, The Feminist on Cellblock
Y and co-founded Initiate Justice,
which organizes people directly impacted
by mass incarceration to change laws
and end it with Taina Vargas-Edmond.
He works closely with Black
Lives Matter, Inspire Justice
and more to transform narratives
and up end systems of oppression.
Thank you for being with me, Richie.
Thanks for having me.
So I asked you because I really wanted to
talk about abolition and what the lessons
are from the modern abolition movement.
So let's start there.
What do you think are some of the biggest
lessons for this moment right now?
Yeah.
The first thing that I would
say is that everything built on
colonial structures is bullshit.
And therefore that includes
corporate leadership structures.
Right?
And I say this as a marketing major.
I say this as somebody who went
to business school, and was
trained formally in that way.
And I say this as an abolitionist.
Everything that was built on this stolen
land and by stolen and exploited labor
is inherently exploitative and seeks to
serve the few at the expense of the many.
And the Abolitionist Movement, albeit
the main focus is abolishing systems
of, state sanctioned violence and
revenge, it also, I think, is built in
a larger, anti-capitalist context that
offers us new methods for leadership
that are not based on exploiting
the many for the benefit of the few.
And I know you run your own business.
You run a for profit business, you run
some non-profits, you do all of the above.
But let's talk about Question
Culture: how do you hold that when
you're trying to run a business,
make money, and not be exploitative?
Yeah.
So I think the key is when people hear
us say that we're anti-capitalists, I
think they imagine that we mean we're anti
market economy and that we're therefore
communists and for a controlled economy.
And that's not the case for me.
I'm not trying to speak for every
anti-capitalist in the world,
but that's not the case for me.
I'm talking about capitalism,
the spiritual idea.
I'm talking about capitalism, the
spiritual mandate as given to us by
Adam Smith, that said the purpose
of the economy is to enrich oneself
to the highest extent possible.
And that somehow when we're
all doing that, we are then
benefiting everybody else.
Now we know that to be a lie.
And, so in building Question Culture,
we seek to build a company that
doesn't use the economy or our primary
purpose is not to just enrich ourselves
to the fullest extent possible.
That's not the place from which
we make our business decisions.
So when we're making a business
decision, an investment decision, a
project decision, a hiring decision,
we're not just thinking about how
does this affect our "bottom line".
We're taking everything into account.
We're taking the communities that
we're affecting into account,
we're taking the talent and how
we're investing in their lives and
how's this going to benefit them?
How's this going to affect culture?
You know, Question Culture.
We make music and films
mostly now doing clothes.
So we were always thinking like, what
effect is this going to have on culture?
What effect is this going
to have for the movement?
We have to take a more holistic,
beyond just like social responsibility
capitalism, but like literally the place
from which we make artist decisions is
how is this going to affect the world?
So to be specific, how we do that in
question culture is every artist that we
sign, we bring on as a partner in the LLC.
So there's nobody who's not
working for their own equity.
We work that into the deal.
Not, I won't get into the weeds.
It's actually two separate
contracts, but it's one deal.
If that makes sense.
Also every major project we release
is followed by an action campaign or
somehow connected to an action campaign.
We just did the Defund the Sheriff album
with Reform LA Jails and JusticeLA.
And that was an action
campaign before the album.
They came to us with actions
that were happening on the ground
and said, how do we make a piece
of art that will amplify this?
So, those are just, yeah, those
are two examples of ways that
we try to lead a non-capitalist
business in the market economy.
Yeah.
And it seems like there's this
conversation that says like, you can
do good with a non-profit or you can be
exploitative with a for-profit company.
And we're seeing more
folks that we know, right?
Inspire Justice is one as well.
BLD PWR is one as well.
Right?
Who
I didn't know BLD PWR was a non-profit?
I don't know if they are an
organization that is run in the
movement, so they might not be.
They are non-profit.
Are they non-profit?
I think they're a non-profit.
Okay.
They're still, also really great.
So we should talk about them.
Inspire Justice is for-profit and
then Question Culture is for-profit.
My company is for-profit.
We're trying to sort of say, what
does this look like in this sort of
world that the movement can exist.
Yeah, I actually really.
I think it's really good that we're
starting to realize that myth is not true
because there's hella non-profits and
the non-profit industrial complex itself,
that are, that's exploitative as fuck.
And there are for profit companies that
are doing really good for the world.
And I think it's because it just,
it all comes down to equity.
I think it really all
comes down to equity.
And in non-profits there, "is no equity."
so you think automatically,
therefore, no one can get
exploited, but that's not the case.
And in for-profits, as long as
the equity represents the labor
that took to create the equity,
then no one is being exploited.
But that's what a lot of for-profits have
a hard time doing because we're taught
to use, you know, "human resources."
To use people as a tool
to build our own equity.
And that's when we get to be exploitive.
Sometimes I say exploited,
sometimes it's exploitative.
Sometimes I say
exploitative, I don't know.
And then when I try to spell it.
It all goes so badly.
I think that's an interesting thing.
One of the things, that I try to pay
way more attention to in this moment
than in others, is the amount that our
language is talking about human resources.
And is talking about the value
of labor and like people having a
price tag and really trying to be
like, no, we are not doing that.
Yeah.
I mean, people, we have to pay people
for their work and pay people well.
But yeah, I think we just need to be
thinking about the collaborative economy.
Like I think we can really learn from
nature and see the way that nature works.
No one is building equity
off anyone else, you know?
And I think that's how we, that's how
we have to build our economies as well.
So yes, there will be people who
are paid for a thing, who don't
necessarily get equity in the thing.
But I think that depends on
what kind of work they did.
I certainly am not saying that a business
owner who did the hard work of starting
a thing should therefore water down
their shares as they hire more and more
people to the point where they have
just as much equity as you know, the
person who just got hired yesterday.
But we should be thinking about
those things, I think is more,
what I'm saying is like, what
is the equitable way to do this?
As opposed to just assuming this is mine
and now all of you work to enrich me.
And do you think there's
a corollary there?
If you just are somebody's boss, like
how, where do you think this sort
of, making sure it's equitable works?
If you don't run your own company,
like where do you think people
can sort of carve out some space
for themselves and the people
that work with them in that way?
Or do you think there is o
That's a good one.
I mean, in abolition, right.
And in transformative justice, we're
always thinking about relationships.
And the complexities of them
and not writing people off and
holding ourselves open to all
opportunities and all possibilities.
So from that perspective, I think
someone who is already within a
corporate structure, how do you build
equity within it, just for you and
the folks maybe directly supervise?
I can offer that as a posture of heart.
Like look for those opportunities.
Don't assume that your company
is bad and will always be bad.
Push.
But it takes courage.
It takes the courage to say, you
know, to the folks higher than you,
or the folks that you're sitting
down at the table and you're getting
ready to make a hiring decision.
Hey, what are we paying this person?
Why are we paying them that?
Is that equitable?
And holding yourself open to
the possibility that hopefully
they'll do the right thing.
And also the possibility that
they won't and just understanding
where your boundary is.
I hope that helped answer the question.
I never sought to work for anyone else.
So it's hard for me to think about
it in that way, but I think what I
would just offer from an abolitionist
perspective and transformative justice
perspective is like, we hold our heart
open to all the possibilities and we
courageously ask for what we need.
Yeah.
And I think people forget, they
can ask for what they need at work.
I think that's a big piece as well.
Yeah.
It's designed to be like that.
It's designed to make it seem like I'm
doing you a favor by "giving you a job."
So shut up and take it.
And work can feel scarce and there can
be, you know, real needs and demands
that needs to be met: kids that need
to be fed, rents that need to be paid.
And sometimes we're kind of trapped
because of capitalism into places
where we're not being valued.
And that's real too.
So last question, Richie, what are you
grappling with right now in any way?
Something I've been really thinking
about, is the way that I feel like
this movement started out so strong and
so abolitionist and we weren't giving
fake corporate bullshit any play.
And I feel like it's been seeping back in.
The like diversity, the DNI efforts
and the, whatever we're going to, we're
going to take the current capitalist
corporate colonial structure and black
it up a little bit, or queer it up a
little bit or woman at up a little bit.
And we're going to say it's okay.
Like when this, when the
uprising first cracked off in
may, we weren't going for it.
We were like, hell nah
defund the police period.
No, I don't care about you painting
Black Lives Matter in the street.
No, I don't care about you, whatever,
putting more black TV shows like
defund the police and fucking
decolonize this land, period.
And I think that as time has went
on, more corporations have been
getting, being able to get away
with performative shit that doesn't
actually decolonize their structures.
And that's what I think I'd really
want to leave people with, who want to
do good within business is to really
understand that the nature of most
corporations on Earth are exploitative.
Either to the earth or people or both.
And it doesn't matter how
multicolored your boardroom is or
how multicolored your C-Suite is.
If you are exploiting people and
resources to enrich yourself or
your shareholders without taking
into consideration every single
stakeholder then you are a colonizer.
And luckily you can change
that behavior right now.
Mic drop.
Thank you, Richie.
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