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To kick off season three, Lena Dirscherl (they/them) returns to discuss the value of having recognizable LGBTQ+ flags with intentional design. In this episode, you will learn 1. What goes into sensitivity reading, including promoting authentic representation, avoiding harmful tropes, and challenging unconscious bias. 2. Where they have been finding and connecting with the polyamory community. 3. How technology fatigue can negatively impact LGBTQ+ entrepreneurs and artists.
🎙️ Connect with Lena to learn more about + support their work:
- BoPoLena’s Patreon
- Website (and shop!)
💻 Sources and resources from this episode:
- The History of Polyamory Flags | polyamproud
- tricolor polyamory pride flag | polyamproud
📣 Announcements:
- The Queer Trans Project is a black-led and trans-led organization that offers build-a-queer kits and flight assistance. They need to raise $50K by September! Thanks to Sam Marion for helping me to amplify The Queer Trans Project’s great work.
- Want to bring Allyship is a Verb to your workplace or group? Get a shoutout? Check out our Indiegogo campaign, including lots of other great perks!
- New merch drop 👀 with another line coming soon 👕
- Major thanks to Kit Ballum Cohen (they/them/kit), a nonbinary designer, artist, and parent who designed the newest podcast cover. Follow + check out their work at https://linktr.ee/itskit
Host Charlie Ocean, MSW (they/them), has a background in LGBTQ+ training, community organizing, and technology. Guest episodes feature at least one allyship tip, including tailored questions based on the guests' unique intersecting identities. You can follow Charlie on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Substack. *You will hear Charlie's former name in this episode and previous ones.*
Creators & Guests
Host
Guest
Lena Dirscherl
"But the next time we met, nothing was different and she didn’t say anything. It was just normal. She didn’t even have to say, ‘oh, you guys are so nice to each other,’ or ‘you’re so sweet to each other,’ or ‘that’s cute’ or whatever. She just acted like it’s the most normal thing in the world. And I think sometimes that’s what you need. It’s nice to get approval or to get positive feedback, but sometimes it’s even nicer when you feel like it’s just normal." — Lena, on a friend's reaction to them sharing about their polyamorous relationship
What is Allyship is a Verb?
People want to do better, but they don’t always know how. Allyship is a Verb is a 4x award-nominated (and now award-winning!) podcast featuring conversations with LGBTQ+ community members of various lived experiences and backgrounds who share their stories and an allyship tip. The host is a silly, warm human who offers self-reflection questions and voiceovers to help deepen the learning for listeners. The host is Charlie Ocean, MSW (they/them), who has a background in LGBTQ+ education, community organizing, and social work.
[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
[00:00:25] Lena Dirscherl: Hey, my name is Lena Dircherl and my pronouns are they/them.
[00:00:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Lena's back. I'm back. The podcast is back. Welcome back! (laughs)
We recorded this in late March of 2023, and I was hoping to have this as a bonus episode for Season 2, and then things happened, and instead it's kicking off Season 3, so I'm happy to have you here.
If you haven't heard Lena's first episode, it's Season 2, Episode 10 - I'd check it out before listening to this one. But you could also just drop in and maybe listen to that one later if you want. It's your life. Do what you gotta do.
Okay, because it's been a minute, I actually have a lot of updates for you, but I'm not gonna throw all of them at you right now, but I wanna tell you some of them.
So, Allyship is a Verb has an Indiegogo campaign, it is running right now. It's been marked as a "team favorite" from the folks at Indiegogo, so thank y'all for that, really appreciate it. And there are various perks, including episode shoutouts and deeply discounted training sessions for my offering, "Allyship is a Verb: Lessons from the LGBTQ+ community" which is currently a three-part series and growing. So if you've ever thought, "Wow I wish I could, like, bring this podcast to work or my group." You can, right now. You can do it - and deeply, deeply discounted.
Next, I literally like two weeks ago, I had this wild idea: what if I take, like, Allyship is a Verb on this traveling, audio exhibit adventure? And it's actually coming together, so stay tuned for more on that. Especially if you're in the Denver, Colorado area. I'm going to be piloting something really cool and unique here for the next year in hopes that I can take it on a national tour. So stay tuned.
And, lastly, for now, I want to say, shout out to Mandy Giles! (voice echos) Thank you for being one of the first IndieGoGo campaign supporters, I really appreciate you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And with that, let's dive into the self reflection questions. We're gonna do three before the conversation, and we're gonna do three after, so make sure to stick around to get those last three before you go.
1) Do LGBTQ+ flags have to follow certain rules? Such as conforming to horizontal stripes to honor the original designs.
2) Should the LGBTQ+ community go back to the original 8-stripe flag?
3) Is there a community I'm a part of that I wish had a flag? Is that important to me?
And now our conversation.
I'm happy to have you back. There's been at least a few changes, that I'm aware of, as far as things that have happened in your life since we last spoke. I want to start with the fact that you just opened a shop. You've got stickers, art prints, postcards, I think wallpaper for phones. How's that been going?
[00:03:33] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah. Thanks so much.
Yeah. I just opened the online shop. A week ago, exactly. Yeah, the launch was a week ago. It has taken me ages to finish this job. (laughs) I think I've worked on it for two years because I've been putting it off. I'm such a perfectionist - I was so stressed. But I finally did it and I'm very happy and I got a few orders. I didn't get too many. I mean, I'm just starting. So I think I just have to promote it more and just see where it goes, see what people are interested in. I'm happy that it exists now.
[00:04:13] Chris Angel Murphy: I say this as someone who also is very particular about the projects I launch, and I think I've gotten to a place where I'm like, "Okay, this is good enough for now." And that's taken me years to get to that place.
[00:04:25] Lena Dirscherl: Hmm.
[00:04:26] Chris Angel Murphy: What were the parts of it that you were struggling with that you felt like it was taking so long? Like, were there pieces of it that were like giving you trouble or?
[00:04:37] Lena Dirscherl: I think it has several factors. One of them was I built the shop with WordPress and I never used WordPress before. So I had to learn it. And every time something just didn't work, I wanted to punch through my laptop screen. (Chris Angel laughs)
Like I have no patience when it comes to technological issues or problems. Like, when something is supposed to work and it doesn't work, it drives me mad. (laughs) This, this was one factor. Like every time something wasn't working, I was like, "Oh my fucking god." And then I had to take a break for the rest of the day. (laughs)
[00:05:16] Chris Angel Murphy: I relate to that so much because - so as a millennial, someone who will be 36 this year, I remember what it was like before the internet. And I remember the rage that was dial up and I won't even go super deep into that. But like now, the slightest inconvenience, if my like internet slows at all, I'm like, "No!" Like I just (laughs) - it's like zero to a hundred. I'm like, "No, this is no longer the dark ages. We're not going back." (both laugh)
And I mean, that's why I'm pretty much, almost exclusively, on Apple products when it comes to work stuff because I don't miss the blue screen of death. Not that every now and then I don't have issues with Mac or Apple overall, but far and away it's better than, than PCs for me.
But yeah, even going into website stuff - I remember I used to create Encode websites from notepad back in the day.
[00:06:18] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:19] Chris Angel Murphy: Before we had the things like Squarespace and all that today. And I've had WordPress sites before and yeah, there's some pretty awesome stuff you can do with it, and now my ass is just too lazy. I'm like, "I don't have time for this." I just want things to work, quickly.
[00:06:32] Lena Dirscherl: Yes. (laughs)
[00:06:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Because WordPress is a beast. And I'm not saying "Don't use WordPress." It's more that like, there's just too many things that have to work together.
[00:06:41] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah. And like for every issue, there's another plugin. And at the end you have like 100 plugins and it's suddenly the site is slow and you're like, "What's going on?!" (laughs)
[00:06:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. The theme and the plugins can fight. Plugins can fight with other plugins. Like no one wins from this. So, or like security issues, all of a sudden people are just like trying to hack into your site.
[00:07:03] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:04] Chris Angel Murphy: It's just, I can't. So, anyway, that said - then having to learn a new software in the first place, the older I get, the more I'm like less interested in that. So-
[00:07:14] Lena Dirscherl: Oh god, me too.
[00:07:14] Chris Angel Murphy: Kudos to you. (laughs)
[00:07:16] Lena Dirscherl: Okay, we're going to sound so old, but I'm at a point where I, I don't want to learn new software anymore. Or, like even new social media apps. I'm like, "Really? Is there another one? Ugh, come on, really?"
Like, I started TikTok, or like I signed up to TikTok half a year ago, last summer. Before that, I just ignored TikTok. And then I hurt my foot and I couldn't walk for like two weeks. (laughs) And I was like, "Okay, now I have time for that." It was a nice distraction.
[00:07:49] Chris Angel Murphy: (laughs) Yeah.
[00:07:49] Lena Dirscherl: But like with everything else, I'm so sick and tired. I just like, I just want to have a workflow that works and I don't want to learn any new skills - I'm lazy. (Chris Angel laughs) Like our brains are lazy. And when you're young, it's exciting. But if you have to do it for work and like every few years you have to change your workflow because there's a new software or a new app that you have to learn. It's exhausting!
I use Adobe Creative Cloud for like my design work and my illustrations.
[00:08:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:19] Lena Dirscherl: They changed their system to like a - oh, how do you say - a subscription system. So basically you have to pay them monthly and they update their software every so often. Which means that like every now and then there are new features. And I don't know about them because I'm not interested in the new features and suddenly everything is completely different and I'm like "I, I don't know this software anymore. I have no idea."
I feel like I'm still in the stone ages and other people are doing like crazy, futuristic shit with the same software, because I just missed out on the news that there are new tools and whatever. And I'm like, "Oh god I just I just want a version that doesn't change anymore." (laughs)
[00:09:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. No, that's so real Like once we get into a workflow I'm not opposed to having new features, especially ones that would benefit me, but like It's just too much.
And I, I think part of where this is coming from, for us, is like, we're already spread so thin cause we're doing so much that we don't really have the time to go down these rabbit holes. And so I find myself constantly having to google, "how do I do this oddly specific thing?" Like, how do you want me to do it? (laughs) I don't want to sit here figuring it out.
I think as people who work for ourselves, you know, anytime you're like a freelancer, entrepreneur, or small business owner, it's just like part of the hurdles. Because, yeah - well, I won't continue to spiral out with this. I'll just say like, I really resonate, and anyone else listening that is also in a similar spot, I hope you feel validated, cause yeah, it's just too much. And it's usually in an inconvenient time that these things drop.
[00:10:02] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:02] Chris Angel Murphy: These things that you're forced to learn, like, this new feature now or this new way of doing something. So, like, that gets me even more pissy. (both laugh) But, that aside - yes, congrats on opening the shop and to your point, yeah, hopefully you'll continue to get more and more orders.
Are there other things you're hoping to drop in your shop at some point this year or next?
[00:10:28] Lena Dirscherl: I have so many ideas, like there are so many products I'd love to, like, produce. But before I can do that, I just have to sell enough of the stuff that's there already. But I love to do, like, calendars - body positive calendar. And different kinds of calendars. Maybe one with just monthly illustrations. Maybe one with weekly illustrations. Maybe a forever calendar, like, where you just write in your birthdays and that you can reuse every year. So there are different options there.
But also, like, I love to-do lists; like, I'm a list person. So a small notepad with like illustrations and like nice message and then you can just write down your to-do list. Something like that would be so nice. Like, I love to design stationary stuff. And I love stickers and postcards myself, so that's why I started with them.
And I hope it resonates with people, because I would be happy if I could just design stuff for my shop with my body positive and queer positive illustrations. Like, I would be the happiest person on earth if I could just earn money with that. (laughs)
[00:11:39] Chris Angel Murphy: You reminded me, when I was in high school, speaking of technology - because let's just go back down that rabbit hole. I mean, first off, I think I'm one of the last, like people (laughs) of the generation to like, learn how to use a typewriter, for example.
[00:11:53] Lena Dirscherl: Oh.
[00:11:53] Chris Angel Murphy: But I had a typewriting class when I was in middle school. I think it was like, eighth grade. And then in high school, I had a course where we got to learn - I don't know why they did this as a hybrid or something, but I couldn't remember the title of the class - but we got to learn how to do web design stuff.
And then, we also had this giant ass Gutenberg press - which I forget what year it was created - but we had one, it was working.
[00:12:23] Lena Dirscherl: Woah.
[00:12:23] Chris Angel Murphy: And I got to create my own stationary with that. I was like, "This is so cool."
[00:12:28] Lena Dirscherl: That's cool. That's hardcore though.
[00:12:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:12:31] Lena Dirscherl: Like, a Gutenberg press is so old! That's cool again. Like, if you say "I'm doing like handcrafted hand printed stuff and I'm selling it." Damn, people would love that. (Chris Angel laughs) That's cool.
[00:12:44] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm curious if they still have it. But the guy that, the teacher that was running that course or class, like he kept it well maintained. I don't think there's any reason why it shouldn't still be working. But, yeah, I mean, that's kinda, those are some of the classes I loved the most in high school because then I also did like, ceramics, and then I had sculpture, I had both of those classes, so we had a kiln in our own class and everything, and it was just like, wild to see the whole process of creating something like that, because, I don't know, it just felt really impressive.
[00:13:17] Lena Dirscherl: Your school sounds like out of a art manga or something. (Chris Angel laughs)
[00:13:22] Chris Angel Murphy: I know.
[00:13:23] Lena Dirscherl: It's popping up - this art class and that art class. And, like I only have one art class and it sucked. (laughs) It was boring.
[00:13:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Nooo. And yet you're still an artist. (Lena laughs) I'm glad that you were able to move past that. (laughs) Yeah. I mean, I think we were lucky because I was living in Los Angeles and our school in particular was in a more wealthy neighborhood. So I think we had access to resources that a lot of other schools didn't. So it's just one of those things where like, I didn't realize how good I had it until now, kind of.
[00:13:54] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:55] Chris Angel Murphy: But the typewriting class made me laugh, because anytime we got in trouble and had to write standards or something, my ass was always the first one out because like, I already knew how to type very well.
And this is without any whiteout.
[00:14:05] Lena Dirscherl: Uh huh.
[00:14:05] Chris Angel Murphy: They removed that from all of the typewriters.
[00:14:08] Lena Dirscherl: Oh wow.
[00:14:08] Chris Angel Murphy: So you couldn't use a backspace. And you could only make so many errors before she'd make you do it all over again. So I was like, "Peace out." (laughs) I don't know. We had to use like, I think it was called Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing to learn how to type properly.
But I know plenty of people that like use hunt and peck method of just like two index fingers, and like, I'm like, "how do you?" Oh, that sounds awful, and exhausting.
[00:14:35] Lena Dirscherl: I never really learned typing, but still I use 10 fingers. I just, I don't know if I use them correctly, but I can use them. Like, but especially like my parents, they still do the two finger typing. It's very cute.
[00:14:50] Chris Angel Murphy: The hunt and peck. Aw.
Last time you were on - I feel like I'm announcing some sort of like -
[00:14:58] Lena Dirscherl: TV series.
[00:14:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Weekly TV series (laughs) " On the last episode of Lena. . ."
[00:15:02] Lena Dirscherl: We need a flashback, we need to cut in something juicy from the last episode. (Chris Angel laughs) "Previously on Allyship is a Verb. . ."
[00:15:09] Chris Angel Murphy: We'll edit in music here. Previously, you shared queer, nonbinary, genderqueer, pansexual, bisexual, trans, and polyamorous as some of your identities and communities that you identify with. Because it's been a hot minute or two, have there been any changes to those?
[00:15:31] Lena Dirscherl: That's a good question.
[00:15:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Have you even had time to think about that? (both laugh)
[00:15:37] Lena Dirscherl: I don't think that anything major changed, but like, since the last time I've been more involved within the polyamorous community in - like, at least online. Because like of life changes, I'm in, in a polyamorous relationship now, like since seven months.
So this is going well, it's been great. And before that, like, I had this identity in theory, but never in praxis, and now I'm, I'm living it. I think that makes me feel more validated, and I'm also more interested in, like, reaching out to other polyamorous people and see what they're thinking and talking about and what the issues are and - yeah, so I've been dabbling in that more. (both laugh)
[00:16:31] Chris Angel Murphy: "Dabbling in it." I love this. With that, where do you find folks in the polyamory community? Like where, like are you following certain pages on like social media? Are there like online forums? Where do you find the folks?
[00:16:49] Lena Dirscherl: Instagram is basically my social media platform. I love hanging out there. So I just looked for accounts there and like this opened up a rabbit hole to more accounts. Also I've realized some were following me and I followed them back and now I have like a network of accounts that I'm following and where I get updates.
I'm not really on online forums or anything because I'm so lazy when it comes to reading. (both laugh) Like I, I love pictures and I love video format for consumption. But if there's a text, if it's too long, I'm like, "Oh no, I'm bored. I can't do this. (Chris Angel laughs) I can't read this. I'm sorry." Like make a video essay about it and I'm going to watch it. It can be like one and a half hours long and I will watch it. But if I have to read for like 10 minutes, I'm like, "Nope, I'm out."
[00:17:44] Chris Angel Murphy: People have their preferred formats. Like people won't watch a movie, but they'll watch like a 10 part TV series about something. (Lena laughs)
[00:17:52] Lena Dirscherl: True.
[00:17:52] Chris Angel Murphy: Or like 50 plus hours of podcast episodes or something. We're complex humans, it's great. But to your point, it speaks also to accessibility, I think, because yeah, we all have different ways of learning in ways that we can better absorb the material. And so, so for some people, yeah, maybe it's a documentary for some folks, maybe it's a book and honestly, for me, it changes day to day which one is going to appeal to me the most.
But I'm glad that you brought up polyamory, because when we last spoke there was a vote going on because there's been a lot of discourse (laughs) in the community about the previous flag.
As a person who's an illustrator, a. k. a. you, not me, (Lena laughs) I'm sure you have your own critiques about it, and this isn't to take digs at the person who created it, because it has been the flag for a very long time, and there may be people that still feel more aligned with that version.
[00:18:55] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:55] Chris Angel Murphy: But there was a vote for the newest flag, and it's now in rotation, I want to say, for lack of better words. (laughs)
Did you take part of that vote? And are you happy with the flag that's been chosen?
[00:19:09] Lena Dirscherl: Yes to both. I didn't know they didn't only vote - the account that the people who basically organized that, they've reached out to me, like, I don't know, at least a year earlier, or maybe a year and a half, I can't really remember. Back then, their account was so small, they only had like a few hundreds of followers. And they basically reached out to me, because I had posted one comic about polyamory, and then they had me on their radar.
So they reached out and explained what they want to do, and if I can do a shoutout, which I did. But when I saw they only had a few hundred followers, I was like, "Well, good luck with that! (laughs) I don't know if it will work." But it did!
Like the next time I've checked they already had a few thousands and then they grew exponentially. Which is good, like I was rooting for them. And then before they even started the vote, a few months earlier, they sent me a link with a few black designs. I think 10 black designs back then.
They basically wanted you to give them detailed feedback, what you think of the flags. And they did that with a few people, I don't know how many, but I was very honored that they asked me as well. And then, like, (laughs) like my designer perfoni- perfonistic - oh, I can't say the word. (Chris Angel laughs) My designer ass -
[00:20:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Perfectionist.
[00:20:36] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, my perfectionist designer ass was like, "Nope." Most of them weren't good enough. (both laugh) Like, some of them, like, I don't know, it was cool. It was super interesting to see what people came up with. But a lot of flags didn't look like regular Pride Flags, in the sense that they didn't like use horizontal stripes.
[00:21:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, so let's pause there a moment cause that's actually a really important point you're making. I think folks have conflated the two communities; so like the LGBTQ+ community and like polyamory.
[00:21:15] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:16] Chris Angel Murphy: So like they're not necessarily - like polyamory doesn't necessarily fall under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. However, there are a lot of folks in our community who do identify with the community and are a part of the polyamory community or like they're a part of both.
I will say that, just as it at least pertains to the final designs I saw that people voted on - I didn't vote, because it's - I don't think I'm part of the polyamory community. I don't know, jury's still out on that one. I'm figuring things out. (Lena laughs) However, so I didn't want to, like, pretend to be a stakeholder in that. But I do remember being happy that they deviated from it, because they are their own thing.
[00:21:56] Lena Dirscherl: That's fair enough. Um -
[00:21:59] Chris Angel Murphy: But it's interesting to hear that you missed that as part of it, as part of the design.
[00:22:05] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, for me like some of the designs were too random, to be honest. There were a few ones that didn't fit like the typical Pride Flag designs that I agreed with, that that were good. But most of them I was like, no, they're too too much out there, like nobody will ever realize what this flag is supposed to mean or that it is even like a flag that's supposed to represent a community, basically.
[00:22:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:34] Lena Dirscherl: For me it was like - no the flags, they can't be like too random. And I gave them my honest feedback and a few months later they had the vote and interestingly enough none of the flags that were like in those, in the first round, in the first draft that I saw, made it to the final vote. I think they, they changed a lot. I don't know if the same designers did, like, a redesign or anything, but, like, I didn't recognize any flags from, from the previous versions, which was interesting.
I'm really satisfied with the latest design, like, that people voted for. I voted for that flag as well. I think it's pretty, it has nice colors that are pleasing for the eye, which was the issue with the previous flag. Like, ugh, those colors, they burned your pupils. (both laugh)
[00:23:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Ouch. Again, shout out to the creator of that flag for doing it in the first place.
[00:23:39] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
[00:23:39] Chris Angel Murphy: And -
[00:23:40] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, it's like, it's better to have a, in a way, a "bad" flag or a flag that not a lot of people like, than having no flag at all. I'm totally happy that, I forgot his name, but that the designer did that back then. And like, the design looks so 90s, and I think it was created in 97 or 95.
[00:24:01] Chris Angel Murphy: In 1995, Jim Evans created the Pi Flag. Dozens of spin offs have been created over the years, but it's taken great effort to organize the community enough to vote on the latest design. I'm including a link to the PolyamProud blog post about this so you can learn more. Plus, see the new, tricolor, Polyamory Pride Flag that was voted on by over 30, 000 people.
[00:24:27] Lena Dirscherl: So it looks like early 90s internet colors. So it's, it's like a time capsule. (laughs)
[00:24:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Lena Dirscherl: The latest design looks a lot more modern and I think the symbolism is nice. It's - I agree with it, let's say. Like, it's good. It's good. Good colors. Good design. (laughs) well done.
[00:24:52] Chris Angel Murphy: I agree. There is something about it that's pleasing. A lot of elements come together.
[00:24:56] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:57] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't think people realize, whether in the LGBTQ+ community or not, how many flags exist.
[00:25:04] Lena Dirscherl: Oh, mm-hmm.
[00:25:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Because there's so many. And, I'm okay with them deviating from the horizontal lines, because what's gonna happen is it doesn't feel very queer of us if we're only allowing ourselves to have flags that have horizontal lines, because we're already different in that not all communities have a flag.
[00:25:24] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:25] Chris Angel Murphy: So to see that the LGBTQ+ community, nearly any sub grouping you might see out there probably has a flag, even broadly under like the ace community, under the MSPEC umbrella, any of those, they all have like all of these different flags.
(singing) What the heck is MSPEC? Mpec, which is capitalized to "M-S-P-E-C" stands for multi sexual spectrum. You may also see it coupled with the Bi+ umbrella. So MSPEC, or multi sexual spectrum, is an umbrella term for a host of various identities like pansexual, bisexual, polysexual, omnisexual, lesbian, and more.
I like that, and I'm okay to see them deviate from the horizontal lines, because I did see there is an account that has a large following that's been creating new terms for identities and experiences, and they rolled out flags with it. And honestly, they got a lot of pushback that it looked like recycled versions of other flags that already exist. But like, they operated on the defensive when they posted those, because they said, "You know, there's only so many colors we can use, and blah blah blah, so if it looks similar to something else, it just happens to be by chance."
And I was like, "Listen, I am not a designer. Don't bullshit me and say there's only so many fucking colors. (Lena laughs) Are you fucking kidding me right now?" Like, excuse my language; my neighbors are going to hear me. But like also, what the flying fuck. I saw right through that bullshit. I was like, "No, no, no, no." So fuck that. (laughsz) So I'm going to say it very passionately.
And I think flags are cool. I know that there can be symbolism for other communities too. Like for example, it was only recently brought to my attention that folks that engage in swinging practices on their car or something, they may have like an upside down pineapple.
I just didn't know that, you know?
[00:27:33] Lena Dirscherl: Mmm, didn't know that either.
[00:27:35] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Apparently it's also a part of like RV communities and stuff. And so like, super cool - love that. I wouldn't have known otherwise, but like, what a great way to discreetly nod to each other that that's a mutually shared interest. So I think that's cool.
And I wonder if that's going to be - cause again, I'm not saying inherently that falls under the LGBTQ+ umbrella, queer umbrella is a different story, so yes, we can circle back to that - but I wouldn't mind if the nonbinary community all of a sudden decided that here's a, let me think of something, here's a dragon fruit, and this is now our symbol. I don't know, whatever it is. (both laugh) I saw a post about dragon fruit today, so that's on my mind, but it doesn't have to be that, you know?
But like, I'm okay with us branching out into different kinds of designs and symbolism to, yeah, just like communicate who we are to others.
[00:28:27] Lena Dirscherl: I think I'm all for like symbols and like any creative signs to, to show others, "Hey, we're part of the same community." And I know that the ace/aro community does that. Like they have so many animals for some reason, like armadillos and whatever. Like, I think anything that starts with an "A" are basically signs for being ace. (Chris Angel laughs) So you have a purple armadillo somewhere in your life and others will probably recognize you as an ace person, asexual person. And I can't - it's it's kind of random but I also love it.
[00:29:03] Chris Angel Murphy: I've only seen the cake but that's interesting, I'll have to do some -
That's
[00:29:06] Lena Dirscherl: the joke with the cake as well, like -
[00:29:08] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:29:09] Lena Dirscherl: I - and I totally get your argument that we're like, queer and all different and already trying to deviate from the norm - and at the same time, like this is like the, the designer in me, I want to have some kind of uniformity within Pride Flags so that people just recognize that these are Pride Flags. And this is why I like the horizontal stripes. My brain is like hyper focused on those stripes I'm like I see them and I know this is probably a Pride Flag and then I'm trying to decipher which Pride Flag that is.
[00:29:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:46] Lena Dirscherl: That is just my personal opinion though.
[00:29:48] Chris Angel Murphy: So where I get stuck is: usually, there's intentionality behind the colors that are selected, and each of them means something. I know that a common format I've seen is usually there's, let's say, five stripes, horizontally, and usually at least one or two of the colors are duplicated, and they mean the same thing.
So it's not like duplicated to also mean something else, but let's say it stands for, I don't know, creativity or something. And if it's like a white stripe or something, which would be funny cause that's not really creative, but whatever, let's go with it, that's where my brain went today. You know, so if there's two of those and that stands for creativity, cool. But like, maybe that was a missed opportunity to use another one.
So then like, going back to just horizontal stripes period, when I think about the intersex inclusive flag, which, to my knowledge, is the most updated one meant to reflect all of us.
[00:30:42] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:43] Chris Angel Murphy: I mean it got a lot of pushback. I mean, even before that one it got a lot of pushback because there were so many more stripes shoved in there, so many more colors. And even though the intentionality behind it is great, it's just too many.
[00:30:58] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Even from like a production standpoint, I think that it's gotten a little bit easier for us to have multiple colors run on something. It's gotten a lot more affordable, more accessible to do that.
But yeah, at some point it's just too much. And it's like, the more, yeah, stripes you have in there, it feels like it starts to become meaningless. And I'm not saying then we shouldn't have other flags. It's just like, yeah, what's the intentionality of this? And it may be at some point, the newest version is going to deviate from it. And maybe it's like a freaking, I don't know, graph chart or something, or maybe it's a galaxy. I don't know. Something that, you know, is like a little bit more complex.
[00:31:36] Lena Dirscherl: Maybe it's a color wheel with all the colors so everybody feels safe. (Chris Angel laughs) Just a white flag with a color wheel. That's the new Pride Flag.
[00:31:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh. There you go. You heard it here first, folks.
[00:31:49] Lena Dirscherl: Like, I think probably me as a designer and illustrator would love it in a way, even though it's not stripes, just because it's a color wheel. (laughs)
At the same time, it's stupid.
[00:31:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Listen, if you want to create it...
[00:32:01] Lena Dirscherl: No, I won't. (laughs)
[00:32:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Why? You don't want people coming for you?
[00:32:05] Lena Dirscherl: Oh, I think I also had the opportunity to like, apply for designing the Polyamorous Flag, like I could have sent in a design. It just stressed me out, like thinking about that this is supposed to represent a whole community - oof, I just couldn't do it.
[00:32:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I guess if I were designing something like that, I would just have to take time to reflect on what it means to me and how I describe my experience to other people and focus on that and just see if that's like a message that resonates with others.
[00:32:39] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:40] Chris Angel Murphy: Because yeah, otherwise, yeah, that is a lot of pressure to put on yourself.
[00:32:43] Lena Dirscherl: Another part of it is: if my design would have won, I probably would have hated it, because I'm such a perfectionist that I would find like a fault in it or like, I would feel like it's not good enough. And then that will be the flag that everybody uses, and I would hate it.
[00:33:04] Chris Angel Murphy: How the hell do you get any work out?
[00:33:08] Lena Dirscherl: I only get like 10% out of whatever I do, because I stopped at 58% or 90% and then I feel like I should do something else because it's not good enough. Which is another reason why it took me so long to do the online shop. So, yeah. Perfectionism is a trap. It's awful. (Chris Angel laughs) Don't do it. Can't recommend.
[00:33:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, can't recommend.
[00:33:31] Lena Dirscherl: Zero stars out of five. (laughs)
[00:33:34] Chris Angel Murphy: That's the official, review.
[00:33:36] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
[00:33:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Goodness.
[00:33:37] Lena Dirscherl: But going back to the Pride Flag, I think that's a really interesting topic. It's super fascinating if you read up about the history of the rainbow flag. Two stripes had to be, like, basically deleted, so I feel like we should go back to the original design. That's, like, my hot take. The next update of the Pride Flag should be the first version of the Pride Flag, and then we should keep that. That's my opinion.
With the Pride Flags, the latest designs, like, the first update when the brown and the black stripe was added in, I was like, "I'm not convinced that this is a smart idea." And I, I understand the reasons for it. I'm all for inclusivity. If that helps in any way, I'm happy to accept that flag. I'm not sure if, if it helps, to be honest though, like, against racism within the community and everything.
But after that, I was like, "Okay, if there's another update, I don't care anymore." And actually, I think it's fair to include the Intersex Flag within the Pride Flag. I mean, because we've included a Trans Flag, so, okay, let's include the Intersex Flag as well, why not?
But then we come to a point, everybody - every flag wants to be included. And then we have like all the colors three times and I don't know, it gets messy, like, from a design standpoint, I'm not convinced, but -
[00:35:02] Chris Angel Murphy: And that's why you're gonna design the color wheel that's gonna be the newest flag. (laughs)
[00:35:06] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, okay. You're getting me there, like, I'm almost convinced that the color wheel is the way to go.
[00:35:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, well, and, I mean, it doesn't even have to be, like, a circle, because, yeah, it just depends, like, what the intentionality is behind it. And for me, that's why when I'm selling the different flag stickers, it's because I want people to use the flag that has the most meaning to them. And so for some people, it is going to be the original eight stripes. Some people don't even know about it. It could be the original six stripe because that's the one I think we still see the most often, especially in places that are practicing allyship, for example. Or, or things like that.
So, yeah, I think it's just important for people to use what most resonates with them. Cause honestly, even though I sell them and we're talking about it right now, I don't really go around wearing Pride Flags. I say that as I'm literally wearing a sweater with a trans flag on it. (Lena laughs) And the reason why -
[00:36:09] Lena Dirscherl: I don't believe anything.
[00:36:11] Chris Angel Murphy: I know. (laughs) I don't normally; it's just something I've been trying to lean into because I think we need more visible representation. And although it says "protect trans kids" on it, which is why it feels safer in some respects to wear it, because it's not necessarily saying I'm trans.
[00:36:28] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:30] Chris Angel Murphy: You know, it's something I'm still working on.
But yeah, really, it's just like a - to me, it's just like, anytime I'm using it, it's meant to be like a bat signal to others, like -
[00:36:40] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Like we're in community, you know. And whether or not we actually talk or hang out together or whatever, like, I just know anytime I've seen it on a car, for example, as a bumper sticker or magnet or whatever, it's just always meant like, "Ah, yes, I'm not alone."
It's just been a nice visual reminder.
[00:36:58] Lena Dirscherl: And I think that's very powerful.
[00:37:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I'm a complicated human. I'm like, "I don't like Pride Flags." And then they're like everywhere. (laughs) Just like falling out of my pockets and (Lena laughs) - oh my gosh. But it's taken me a long time to get here, but they're not my favorite way of like showing pride.
[00:37:15] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm. I get that. I prefer Pride Flags that feel nice to my eye, like the colors that I like. So for example, I feel like the Pansexual Pride Flag is It looks more beautiful than the Bisexual Pride Flag. And I'm like, "I'm going to use that flag for me. I'm going to use the Pansexual Flag because it looks better."
And I don't know if you probably know, but there's also a Pride Flag specifically for gay men because it used to be like the rainbow flag, but then the rainbow flag is for everyone. So yeah, there's a more specific one. And oh my god, I love the colors. And I'm kind of mad that I'm not a gay man and I can't use the Pride Flag (Chris Angel laughs) because this is the most beautiful Pride Flag. I love it. It's so beautiful.
[00:38:05] Chris Angel Murphy: For anyone struggling to land on a community, maybe just like peep the flag and if you like the flag, just go with that community. (laughs) So if that means you're a gay man suddenly, there you go; problem solved. If only it were that easy. (laughs)
[00:38:21] Lena Dirscherl: If it helps you, like, deciding what identity to claim, just look at the flags. (laughs)
[00:38:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Just, just like walk by and just be super judgy, be like, "Oh, okay, maybe I could fuck with that." Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. I'm a loose cannon. Okay. (Lena laughs)
Well, this is a great segue into you being a sensitivity reader. So you read work in German and English for themes like biphobia, binary normativity, gender sensitive language, pan erasure, queerphobia, and more. What goes into that kind of work for you, and why should people use those kinds of services?
[00:39:01] Lena Dirscherl: What's important as a sensitivity reader is that you can only claim expertise in areas that are part of your identity and your experience. So, for example, I couldn't be a sensitivity reader when it comes to discrimination based on race, because I'm white. I don't experience discrimination that way, so that's why I can't, like, claim expertise in that area.
But, for example, when it comes to being bisexual or pansexual, being nonbinary, all that, I know what it feels like, and I also, like, did research. I read up on it, I know what the issues are. And that's why I basically can represent the community in that way, and I can check works of, like, fiction or media, or basically anything, like, text based or visual or audio, video. I can check those for, like, parts that feel iffy or are discrimination or are just tokenization.
You have to prepare, you have to learn a lot, you have to read up a lot before you can be a sensitivity reader. It's a very, very new job, basically. So it's self taught in a way. And, yeah, I totally forgot what the part, the rest of the question was. I'm so sorry. (both laugh)
[00:40:28] Chris Angel Murphy: You're fine. I - that happens to me too when I go on my tangents. (Lena laughs ) Just basically, what goes into that kind of work and why should people use it?
[00:40:37] Lena Dirscherl: If you want to show the diversity of life and humanity - we need sensitivity readers because people who create their work, they only have a few identities, they can never represent everyone and they might like fall into (pensive sigh) wrong perspectives without realizing that. They might reuse tropes that are very problematic or hurtful without realizing them.
And that's why they need someone who knows about these issues, who can check the work for any of those things and then say, "Hey, that's not cool. Maybe you can do that differently. Maybe you can do this or that or whatever." It helps your work to get better and it helps others to be seen and not to get hurt, basically. I have to say though, sometimes when I, (laughs) when I work on, when I work as a sensitivity reader, sometimes I read stuff that's so triggering - it's really hard - and then, then you don't even know where to start, like explaining the issue because it's the whole thing, is just a big problematic thing.
[00:41:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Do you mean like where it's significant in the story and would require a lot of reworking?
[00:42:03] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's use like fictional media as, as an example. If it's a fantasy work, a fantasy book, for example, and the whole world and all the characters and all storylines are just based on cishet, white points of views. And then you have, like, some - yeah, just that. Just that is, like, already an issue. Because, like, the whole world is so bleak in a way: it's just representing one point of view.
But also, if like, there are storylines that are totally erasing identities, or might outright be transphobic, or anything, like, you have to explain so much, and you feel triggered while reading it, and then that person has to be willing to like, rewrite everything.
And I think the problem with that is that often sensitivity readers are brought in at the very end of, of the creation process. You would need them to be part of it from the very start. Like, the moment you have a draft of your story, for example, if it's a story, you should already send it out to a sensitivity reader and say, "Hey, what, what do you think about that? Are the ideas okay? Is there anything missing or is there anything problematic?" And then you don't have to rewrite a whole book basically. (laughs)
[00:43:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Right, it would save everyone a lot of work.
[00:43:32] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
[00:43:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Are there times where people just don't take your feedback even though they'd asked for it?
[00:43:37] Lena Dirscherl: Oh, yeah. Sometimes they just - I think it often happens with advertisement - they just commission you as a sensitivity reader because they want a seal of approval, and I'm not willing to do that. Sometimes when they realize they are not getting that seal of approval, they're not getting that "well done" stamp, they might just ignore my advice and just publish it anyways. That's fine, they can do that. Yeah, it's sad, in a way.
[00:44:09] Chris Angel Murphy: How does someone get into that work, like, do you have to reach out proactively to different agents, or certain publishers, or how did, I guess, you approach doing that work, or getting started?
I'm not trying to give you more competition, but also -
[00:44:28] Lena Dirscherl: No, that's fine.
[00:44:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. (laughs)
[00:44:30] Lena Dirscherl: I don't mind that. I know that within like the publishing world, the book publishing world, there are already a lot of sensitivity readers and within that industry it is a job that has been around for, for a longer time. I actually don't know how to like how it works within that industry, because I'm just a freelancer.
And I basically just started out and I connected with a few people online. And now I'm part of a collective basically. Every time like a commission comes in, we can see who can do it and then that person basically does it. It was just deciding that this is a path that I wanted to take and then I just went for it, basically.
You make a website, you just put yourself out there, and you hope for the best. (laughs)
[00:45:27] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't want to overlook the fact that you shared about how triggering that work can be. What are the ways that you've had to take care of yourself so that you can continue to do this kind of work?
[00:45:41] Lena Dirscherl: One thing that I've realized is: sometimes you have to charge more. (both laugh) Basically sometimes, sometimes there you have to charge more just to compensate all the triggering that's going to happen. (laughs) But money money doesn't solve all problems.
I think part of it is not doing it all day long. If you have a big text, like a lot, like it's a huge body of work that you have to work through. Just do it step by step over a week, for example. Don't try to do it in a whole day because it will be too much.
And also think about self care practices. What can you do to relax? Like take a bath or whatever. Sometimes I want to like rant or like, yeah, talk about it - like what annoys me. And most of the time I'm not allowed to though, like there's a contract that tells me not to share any information. So sometimes I basically just record messages on my phone for myself. I pretend that I'm recording a voice message to a friend, but I'm not sending them. I just do it to vent (laughs) and to get that out of my system. And then I feel better.
[00:47:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, that sounds like - this sounds really complicated. When I imagine what it means to be a sensitivity reader, I imagine someone with, like, a red pen just, like, (Lena laughs) ready and waiting to mark the shit out of something, right?
But also, you want to be pleasantly surprised.
[00:47:21] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Would you say, like, and obviously you don't have to give like a hard percentage to this, but would you say there's like enough times where you're pleasantly surprised and giving like affirming feedback to storylines or characters or?
[00:47:36] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm. There are some clients that are totally willing to do the right thing and they want to have a sensitivity reader because They want to do the right thing and they will listen to your feedback and they will be very thankful, thankful for your feedback. This is very nice and I think that's the clients you have to focus on, because your brain tries to focus on the negative stuff so you mustn't forget the nice clients.
And sometimes sometimes you get something that is already perfect or almost perfect. Like sometimes I'm reading through stuff and I'm like, "Damn, there's nothing to do here; it's, it's good." Or it's like, "Ah, okay, we can change that sentence, but anything else is fine." Then sometimes I feel bad because I'm like, "Oh, I didn't really do anything." (laughs) But I still have to read through the whole thing. So it's what happens if the client already did a good job. (laughs)
[00:48:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Are there, I mean I recognize this would be outside of your scope, are there ever times that you recognize there's something else that should be flagged by another sensitivity reader, because it's maybe not your expertise, but you can tell that like something's off about it?
[00:48:54] Lena Dirscherl: Oh yeah, that happens from time to time, and that's a good thing that I'm part of a collective with people that share other experiences. Because sometimes something feels iffy or I already pick up on something that's not my expertise, but I - like sometimes you just see that something is racist, for example.
[00:49:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:49:13] Lena Dirscherl: Then I just like share it with the group. Or like I talk to one of the other sensitivity readers that I know and I'm like, "Hey, can you have a look through this? Like, I think that's racist and I think we need to tell that client. That they also have to check that and they also have to commission you." And stuff like that. So yeah, I do that. (laughs)
[00:49:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, we've covered a lot of different ground and as per usual, I didn't get through all my questions and that's fine because I think we did a good job (Lena laughs) of diving into some very crunchy topics. So I appreciate your willingness to do that.
To end on a uplifting note, not that we have to, but I would like to, since there's no tip happening today.
[00:49:57] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:58] Chris Angel Murphy: What's a way someone has recently shown up for you that's felt really good?
[00:50:05] Lena Dirscherl: Okay, that's a good question.
[00:50:07] Chris Angel Murphy: Other than buying your stuff from your shop. (both laugh)
[00:50:13] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, if you want to show up for me, do that. Yeah, so, okay, I have an example. I still haven't told everybody that I know that I'm in a polyamorous relationship. So I'm still, like, doing that when it feels right. And there was a friend recently, I actually wanted to tell her sooner, but I wanted to do it personally, and we just didn't have the time to meet, and at some point I was like, "Okay, let's do it via voice message, this is ridiculous."
And I told her, and the way she reacted was very nice and kind. And basically, she told me that she's happy for me, and that even though she is cishet and monogamous, it's not a big deal for her. And then like, she, she started explaining like all the people she knew who already, like, had polyamorous relationships, or open relationships, or tried out swinging, or whatever. Like, she basically sent me a list just to show me, like, "This is normal for me, this is okay."
[00:51:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh.
[00:51:26] Lena Dirscherl: (laughs) I thought it was very sweet at that moment. It was a bit funny, like, "I know a person who is this and that." (Chris Angel laughs) It was a bit weird, but it was, it was also sweet.
But the next time we met, nothing was different. And she didn't say anything, like - it was just, it was just normal. Like, she didn't even have to say, "Oh, you guys are so nice to each other, or you're so sweet to each other, or that's cute or whatever." She just acted like it's the most normal thing in the world. And I think sometimes that's what you need. Like, it's nice to get approval or like to get positive feedback, but sometimes it's even nicer when you feel like it's just normal.
[00:52:07] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah not a big deal, but also a big deal.
[00:52:11] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
[00:52:11] Chris Angel Murphy: But not, (Lena laughs) but also, yeah. Oh my gosh. (Lena laughs)
All right, folks. Thanks for tuning in. Lena, thank you for coming back. Always a pleasure to laugh with you.
Before we dive into the final three self reflection questions, I want to say shout out to Kit, who illustrated our new cover. Thanks to y'all and your generous support, it helps me to hire awesome folks like Kit to make magic happen.
And as a result, there is also a new merch drop on the bonfire shop and another design on the way that will come out in hopefully the next few weeks. So stay tuned for that.
But thank you, Kit. I appreciate you. I love the new cover. Thank you.
You know, the previous two versions were me messing around in Canva and I can't compete with an actual illustrator who knows what the heck they're doing. (laughs) So thank you, thank you, thank you. Please check out their work, especially if you need an illustrator. Check them out on Instagram, I will have a link in the show caption.
Alright, the final three:
4) Are there identities I carry, or communities, that I'd like to be more involved with? What's holding me back from doing that?
5) How am I supporting my friends and loved ones who are entrepreneurs? Are there any ways I could better support them?
6) Are there any books or media I've come across recently that definitely should have had a sensitivity reader? How might that have improved upon the work?
Alright, folks, be well, and catch you next time.
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