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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: All right, Tom.
All
Speaker 2: Happy,
Speaker: Thursday evening to you, sir.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Happy Thursday evening and I thought you
were about to say happy post tax deadline.
People who know us, know well enough
to know that this is the first episode
we're recording post the 2020 post
deadline for tax filing deadline.
So I think we're maybe a little
more relaxed than we were last week,
or I'm feeling that way, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: A little less,
maybe a little less grouchy.
Than we were Yes.
On last week's episode.
Yes.
I hope
Speaker: we both agreed when
we got on the call that we were
less grouchy than last week.
So Yes, you're welcome, listener.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
And I.
That said, it's still an a post work
Thursday record for us here, which
is still breaking the cadence we
had for a while of doing mornings.
Yeah.
And yes, it's maybe not our most energetic
time of day for either one of us, but
we're gonna try to bring it and, yeah.
See what Marcus has in store for us here.
Exactly.
So with no further ado, let's do
it unless there's any ado further.
No.
Okay.
Let's do it.
Is there any ado
Speaker: further?
Let me think.
Any stoicism related stuff.
Tom, yeah.
I don't know.
To Tom's, just for the record, Tom's
just got a lot going on these days.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: We both do, but yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
The, yeah.
The big news on my end being Yeah.
Getting married, basically,
getting my, getting married,
Speaker: picking a venue.
Yeah.
And so
yeah, I think it's yeah, it makes you
like the, basically like there, there's
this idea that you're always, we're always
trying to like, optimize something and
then when you're, you've already got
a lot of stuff going on, then you just
wanna keep everything else the same.
Yeah.
And and so for both of us,
we were reflecting on how.
There's enough going on.
We don't really need any
more chaos in our lives.
Like I don't need to watch
scary movies right now.
Like I've got, right?
Yes, exactly.
I've got plenty of stuff happening.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yep.
Totally.
Yes.
If anything, the philosopher,
I, I feel like I'm thinking
about a little bit these days.
Sorry, Marcus.
I sometimes think about other
philosophers is like thorough, like
a little bit of simplifying Oh.
Kind of vibe is appealing to me right now.
You know what I mean?
I feel like in moments like this,
there's the opportunity for me to
look at my life and be like, okay,
Speaker: do I really need this?
There's last year that I like,
Speaker 2: But are there things
here I can let go of right now?
So maybe that's a lens to bring to
today's reading of Marcus is see if Yeah.
Can those guys meet anywhere?
Because I do feel like when I'm
feeling busy and like life is full
I haven't connected with
Marcus quite as much yet.
Maybe I will, but I feel like I haven't
been thinking about him as much recently.
I don't know if he's a
philosopher of busyness.
Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
He
Speaker 2: he's all about action.
Speaker: He's all about action.
He's all about just like doing
the thing that's in front of you.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
Speaker: I feel like these things overlap.
Tom, this discussion also makes, made
me think of a realization that UPI
and I collectively had this past week.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker: Which, which is gonna
it's gonna fall flat on a
podcast but I'll share it anyway.
Okay.
And here it is.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Thanks for bringing
this observation that's gonna
fall flat to our podcast.
Perfect.
Speaker: You're welcome.
Yeah.
Here we go.
Here we go.
God, it's gonna sound, sorry.
It's all a matter of perspective.
Okay.
That's the realization.
Speaker 3: Okay.
But
Speaker: it's so yeah.
Okay.
Boy, this really doesn't sound
like rocket science, but the,
but it like the same facts.
So Whoopi and I will complain
to each other after work.
Or it'll be like, oh, how was your day?
It was like this and this.
Yeah.
And like this is this per, this
is still not working out and
this is, this interpersonal
relationship is still frustrating.
Whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: And.
For a long time we were like our job
as partners is to listen to each other.
Yeah.
And like the world, the last thing you
wanna do is to correct them in any way.
You just wanna listen and
say, oh, that sounds hard.
Yeah.
And the realization was, maybe there
is a little bit more we can do.
And instead of just saying, oh,
that's so hard, I'm so sorry.
It's a little bit of a there's a very
delicate balance where you can be like.
Look, you get paid a lot to do,
solve these problems, right?
This is the job signed up for it.
You get to work remotely and
it's like pretty nice and
it's a very tricky balance.
'cause you, it has to be
coming from a good place.
But if you can strike that
balance, it feels way better.
Yeah.
That's actually the best solution.
It's like when if I'm talking
about these things, it's because
they are actually bothering me.
And if my partner can get me to the
point where I'm like, who are we kidding?
I get to step away from.
My own company and have that be a smooth
transition and have my co-founder take
on all this additional responsibility.
I'm like, wow, boy, am I lucky?
Like boy is that fortunate.
And.
Yeah.
So it's just, yeah.
I guess it boils down to
it's a matter of perspective.
Speaker 2: It's more than I, no, I, okay.
For the record, I thought, I think
that's a really interesting observation.
Yeah.
And I think it's, it goes deeper than
it's a matter of perspective, but
you're talking also about the ways
in which we respond to each other.
Yeah.
And in moments where we're
feeling frustrated or whatever.
Yeah.
I, I'm reminded of there, okay, there's
this like framework for dealing.
With like children, and I'm not
calling you guys children, but I
just think sometimes that's an easy
example of thinking about people
who are, who often are sad or
dealing with a problem or whatever.
Yeah.
And there's this like thing
that you can even teach kids.
I think about I, this didn't happen to me.
I've read about this about okay, when
a kid is sad and comes to the teacher
or whatever, adult in their life.
Yeah.
The sort of question that some
preschool teachers or whatever
will ask is, do you want to be.
Heard, hugged or helped HHH and like
they have different functions basically.
But the point is that with like
when we vent to each other, complain
to each other, whatever, yeah.
There are different needs that we
might want to have met by that.
Nice.
Wow.
Action.
Speaker: What's the difference
between heard and hugged?
Speaker 2: Do you want to say a bunch
of words and explain like sometimes
just the venting is cathartic.
Just, it sounds like maybe the default
mode for you guys is really heard.
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Where it's like, Hey,
I just want to tell you about the
annoying stuff that's going on at work.
And the other person just assumes
the role of whatever they say my
job is just to be like, that sucks.
Yeah.
I'm sympathizing with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's it.
But they're not doing the helped.
They're not doing the yeah.
And it seems like what you guys
are saying is wait a minute.
Actually, blending in some help
at times can be pretty nice.
Speaker: Yeah.
That's nice that, that's
a nice framework, Tom.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Triple H.
Yeah.
Pretty easy to remember.
I'm the challenge is the thing
that makes that framework hard.
I think Uhhuh is in a moment
when I'm feeling upset.
Frustrated Exactly.
Or whatever.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Do I actually know which one
of those things I truly am
wanting, I don't know, self
Speaker: awareness.
If you can, I start by saying
helped and then I change my answers.
At the moment, it starts
to hurt, yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's, yes.
I think really good interpersonal
communication can involve a certain
degree of answering that question.
Yeah.
On the part of the complainer and then
the complain E doesn't have to do a
guessing game of should I be giving
advice or should I just be listening?
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah.
I guess the not to take away from the
Triple H model, but the part of the
realization here with us is that helped.
There's a helping where you
like try to solve the problem.
Yes.
And there's a helping where you, it's
like a meta helping, which is like it's
Speaker 2: perspective.
Speaker: Yeah.
It's just perspective.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It's, here's some perspective
that you already know.
And I'm not trying to say that
this is an insightful comment, it's
just that, I'm just gonna repeat
what you already know, but it's a
little different than just heard.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's
a totally valid point.
Yeah.
I don't think, yes,
Speaker: that we are.
So we're yeah, that part is interesting.
Yeah, like another common one
is these days, sometimes once
a week, I just have a bad day.
Just like grumpy, right?
Yeah.
And it's actually, it's weird.
It's a little concerning.
I'm gonna monitor it because I
don't remember having days where
I was so grumpy in the past.
Some days I'm just so grumpy.
Anyway.
Speaker 2: Do they start that
way or do they end that way?
Speaker: They're the whole day,
like last Sunday, I was just grumpy
all day that this is my own day.
Okay.
Start
Speaker 2: maybe.
Okay.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Speaker: And then and then Oopie will
do this thing where she'll be like, what
are three things you're grateful for?
And in the moment I'm like a nothing.
Nothing.
Yes.
And then I have to like, and the
grum I am, the longer it takes me to
think of anything that I'm grateful.
Yes.
So some, this Sunday she asked me and I
was like, I spent an hour like mulling
over basic 'cause like we, we talked
about other things and I kept being
like, I'll keep thinking about it.
Yeah, and I couldn't think of whatever,
like I couldn't think of anything
that I, authentically at the, in the
moment felt grateful for, was feeling
Speaker 2: grateful
for, which obviously is
Speaker: so silly in retrospect, but Yeah.
But it was, we were just like, okay,
yeah, this was, we're very grumpy today.
And yeah, the next day it was fine,
but it was just interesting to observe
that I don't feel like I used to have
swings like to that degree or something.
I'm not sure.
I'm wondering if it's lack
of like socialization.
Speaker 2: Could be, can
I offer another theory?
I have noticed similar
patterns in my own life.
Yeah.
Yes.
I guess I'm defaulting to my, to that age.
I think some of that has to do with
actually the wisdom and perspective
of age, where I think a lot of
that kind of self-monitoring of
your emotions is just something
you get better at as you get older.
And I think it's possible that you
were grumpy as a younger person
and didn't notice it as much.
Speaker: I appreciate
you, I appreciate that.
I appreciate that version where
it's like my my ascension, but I,
it's like everything was tainted.
Everything that I experienced.
All the same things, but they seemed bad.
Speaker 3: They seemed
Speaker: bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Maybe
Speaker: I, maybe I did have that
in the past and I would just like,
and somewhat maybe I didn't realize
that I was, maybe I in the moment
I was like, everything is bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
But
Speaker: yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe it is, I, it, I'll think about that.
Whether it's self-awareness or,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Yeah.
I, that's not to de diminish.
I think your theory about there
are also Yes, sometimes heard, Tom
Speaker: heard.
I'll change
Speaker 2: my, okay.
Yes.
I'm okay.
I'll flex back to herd here.
You screwed up.
Which is to agree with you
and say that I think yes.
I think there's also definitely
a possibility of a real cause and
I think, that's something that.
A barda, and I were talking about this
week too, is we have lots of stuff going
on in our lives right now, which is good,
but it also, we both have this the set
of like under like processes that are
running in our subconscious right now,
just to keep all the stuff we want to do.
Going and happening.
Yeah.
Is really big.
Yeah.
And even though it doesn't feel like any
one of them is particularly stressful
or going badly or something like that.
Yeah.
The sum of them is enough
that we're noticing.
Oh yeah.
Wow.
I'm stressed right now actually, even
though there's no like single culprit.
Yeah.
And I, that to me can make me grubby too.
I've had days like that recently where I'm
like, definitely not my full total self.
And that's my current theory about why.
Speaker: Nice.
That yeah.
That, that, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Thanks for that.
Heard.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
All
Speaker: Okay.
We've,
Speaker 2: we've built some, okay.
We have some nice vocabulary
we've added to our Yeah,
Speaker: yeah.
Our
Speaker 2: pod podcast here that we
can let's see if what, how it'll play
with what Marcus has to say today.
Speaker: Yeah.
Where are we?
31 or 32?
Speaker 2: I think we read 31.
Okay, so we're gonna
do 30 book eight here.
Entry 32.
Let's do it.
You have to assemble your life yourself
action by action and be satisfied if each
one achieves its goal as far as it can.
No one can keep that from happening.
And here he's, we've got a, it's
a Socratic thing where somebody is
responding and the response says,
but there are external obstacles dot,
Speaker: for dot.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Response not to behaving with
justice, self-control and Good sense.
Speaker: Nice
Speaker 2: response.
But perhaps to some more concrete action.
But if you accept the obstacle and work
with what you're given, an alternative
will present itself another piece
of what you're trying to assemble.
Action by action.
Okay, I have before we respond to this.
Yeah.
I have an idea for future iterations
of us reading Socratic dialogues.
This like this.
Oh, you want me
Speaker: to read the other question?
Exactly.
Yeah.
I
Speaker 2: think, okay.
In the future, I'm gonna have you.
Step in and be the dash voice who is
questioning the wisdom of I get to be
Marcus, and you get to be the dumb Yeah.
Incu, who's,
Speaker: he's
Speaker 2: just put in
place to prove his point.
That'll
Speaker: be the first time I
have to read on the podcast.
We'll see how goes.
Yes.
I
Speaker 2: think that's fair.
But, okay.
I actually I like this one.
Speaker: No one can get
that from happening.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: He's addressing something
that I think we often complain about.
Even just at the beginning here where
he says, you have to assemble your life.
Speaker 3: Action
Speaker 2: by action.
And he, his whole thing is no
one can stop you from doing that.
Speaker 3: And
Speaker 2: we're, my reaction to
that always is like yeah, but usually
when you're assembling your life,
action by action stuff's hard.
And there are circumstances that prevent
you from doing the things, the goal you're
trying to achieve, obstacles and, yes.
So his.
Imaginary friend here says, but
there are external obstacles.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And here's where he does his
interesting sleight of hand, but I think
it phrases it nicely, which is that
No external obstacles to
behaving correctly with justice,
self-control in good sense.
In other words, it's
all about the process.
Or at least that's how I read it.
And then the inter the guy i's
talking to you shows up again
and says, yeah, okay, fine.
You're right.
There's maybe you can always make
the right dec decision, but whatever
goal you're trying to achieve.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is there, there could
be obstacles, in fact, often are.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then I think Marcus
has some nice wisdom here too,
about if you accept the obstacle
and work with what you're given,
an alternative will present itself.
Another piece of what you're trying
to assemble action by action.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: That's a newer
sentiment that he arrives at
a newer idea, at least to me.
By the end there.
Speaker: So let's do an example, right?
So yes.
You have to assemble your
life action by action.
So you're a poet and
you love to write Yeah.
But then you get sent to a gulag,
that's the external obstacle,
Speaker 2: right?
Speaker: But you can still, and Marcus
says, but you can still be, behave with
justice, self-control in good sense.
Speaker 3: But
Speaker: perhaps, not certain
concrete actions like writing.
And then he says, but if you accept
the obstacle and work with what you
are given an alternative or present
self, you'll start to just do oral
poetry or something in your own head.
That's his, that's, yeah.
Speaker 2: Or you'll come up with, you'll
scrounge up some paper and you'll use the
experience you're having to write poetry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Better or whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
That.
It's a
Speaker: very it's a very, like
never be a victim, you're always in
control attitude, which is great.
Yeah.
It's like kind of the classic it's
great when you're ready to hear it.
Yeah.
And then it can make you also feel very
guilty like you don't give yourself
permission to, to be weak in any way.
Yes.
Here
Speaker 2: I would say
that is a theme of Marcus.
Yeah.
Seriously, in general.
Yes.
I think it's a really good point.
This is not a philosophy with a
lot of oh hey, forgive yourself.
You were just, you were learning.
Forgive yourself kind of space.
It's all about, yeah.
Speaker: I guess the only, the way
to forgive yourself is to say, look,
at the time I was behaving with
justice, self-control in good sense.
Yeah.
It's just, I didn't have all the
information, I didn't have all
the context, but just Right or
Speaker 2: just come on by.
Goals change over time.
Whatever goals change there's this
goal that underpins the thing.
And those Yeah.
Yeah.
Are based on Yeah.
What, and those things change.
I think there is truth to that.
I think that Yeah, I agree.
That is how, I guess I look at Yeah.
Living life broadly is like
Speaker 3: Yeah.
For
Speaker 2: a lot of people
it's not, for almost nobody.
Is it this like neat storybook
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Thing and.
The way to figure out how to do it
is how to feel good about each step
you're taking while you're taking it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And not focus on,
oh, yes, this prior step
was bad or whatever.
'cause that's useless.
Speaker: Yeah.
This kind of goes, this makes me think
of a discussion Oopie and I have quite
often, which she's much more comfortable
being like, oh, I made a mistake.
Oh yeah.
I just made the wrong decision back then.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: I struggle with this too.
No, I don't if you're about to say that.
Your struggle with it.
Exactly.
I struggle with this big time.
Yes, go ahead.
You
Speaker: like me.
We, I have to like.
If I made a mistake,
I like generate a nar.
I like build a mountain outta a, I have to
just explain why to myself, just to live
with myself that this was not a mistake.
It was this context thing.
And it was actually, I was behaving
with justice, self control in
good sense at that time, yes, I
Speaker 2: was right,
but something changed.
Yes.
Speaker: And then open,
she's what are you doing?
Like we picked the wrong vacuum cleaner.
Chill out.
Speaker 2: Why?
Why are we like that?
I dunno.
Speaker: Why do you, what
Speaker 2: do you Yeah.
Speaker: Because we're frail little
creatures who can't possibly feel upset.
Even for one minute,
Speaker 2: I, there's something, yes.
Something about the vulnerability
that it takes to be human.
Yeah.
And just be like, yes, I'm a silly
little human who makes mistakes.
Yeah.
That yes, somewhere deep in my conscious.
Lied by subconscious or something.
Yeah.
That I'm like, that's not allowed, you're
not allowed to just write it off as I'm
the kind of person who makes mistakes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Even though you totally
should that's not rational.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I,
Speaker: I think it's
just a happiness thing.
I think it's just I think it
just makes you happier, to,
Speaker 2: to admit to
do the work mistakes?
Speaker: No.
To not admit to Oh, to not.
You think it makes us happier
to build the mountain.
Yeah.
Build, building the mountain, I think is
a way to just, it's like a little trick
to feeling happier and we are willing
to do the work to get that outcome.
Yeah.
'cause
yeah okay, this is a
very specific example.
Okay.
I'll go ahead and share it, which
is, had to let go of someone of a
report and it was a tough decision.
Like it was, this person, like there
are clear cut decisions and there are
times where it's less clear cut and yeah,
this was a little less clear cut and and
it's not like.
Sorry, I, I don't, I, I'm not implying
that it was maybe the wrong decision, but
there is a, there, like my brain would
never I would say it's in the past, so
therefore it was correct, like it's over.
And whereas I think she's more willing
or there is a style of thinking
where you're more willing to be like.
Know truth is, I, this person was,
I classified this as a mishi, but
it was only like two months of data
and there sure the circumstances at
the time made sense, but it might
not have been the right decision.
Yeah.
Anyway, so one of them, yeah, maybe
you're trading off like learning or yeah,
growth, personal growth for happiness.
That's the ever present
trade with stoicism.
You grow less, but you're happier.
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
I So you think that she No,
we are being more stoic.
This We're more stoic.
Yes.
Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
Speaker: Or how do I put it?
Like we are, I don't even know
if we're being more stoic.
We're, we are.
You could be stoic and
still say, I screwed up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's
an interesting question.
That's not something we've
encountered that I can think
of much in Marcus's writing.
Like how does he think about
moments where he screwed up?
Speaker: He doesn't, he
just gives principles.
He doesn't really rate himself
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Against those principles.
Does he's sometimes he, yeah.
I,
Speaker 2: my feeling is yeah we
get implications of self-criticism.
Yeah.
But it's, so much of the orientation
is always just yeah, what's next?
So it's like mistake or No mistake.
Yeah.
It's just what, yeah, exactly.
Speaker: I see.
Okay.
So just looking ahead and controlling what
we can control that part is maybe stoic.
Yeah.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The other thing I'll
just say on this subject, that
is something I've always noticed.
'cause I noticed the same thing where.
For me too, it's hard
to admit to mistakes.
Like you're smiling while I say that.
It's definitely true for me.
Big time.
True for me.
Yeah.
And I think it's a bummer because
in addition to the, I agree with
what you're saying about, I.
Maybe, the opportunity for
growth and change that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Studying your mistakes can
allow, there's also something very
vulnerable and human about it that lets
other people connect to you, whereas
that's the way that we build our
little mountain that you're describing.
Yeah, that's right.
In my experience, it's mostly a, there's
a defense mechanism aspect to it where
it's like I need to prove to an external
listener that I wasn't wrong or whatever.
Yeah.
But it actually makes you not fun.
It's like way more fun to be around
the person who's just oh yeah,
I really screwed that one up.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So anyway, that's something I noticed too.
Yes.
Speaker: But vulnerability like is
certainly if it's not, I used to do this
at part, I think I told you about this, I
used to do this at parties all the time.
People would be like.
How's it going?
How are you?
And they don't care.
Yes.
Your answer was bad.
Be like, let me think, let me really
think about this and spill my guts.
Yes.
Yeah.
And like it didn't make me feel good
because that wasn't the question, yeah.
And yeah, and in fact it makes me feel
worse because it's not, there's, I don't
get any of the value of vulnerability.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
So vulnerability to what end?
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Like vulnerability.
If in the right circumstances.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yes, there are.
Yes.
The situations I'm thinking
of are like I, I know.
I think of this especially with like
boys broy energy it's fun to rag on
your male friends and tease them a
little bit about, and like some people
are really good natured about getting
teased or whatever, and like mistakes
and stuff are obviously a part of
the basis for that kind of thing.
But then.
I've always been bad at that part
of it because if somebody makes
fun of me for having made a mistake
or something, I just get so, yes.
I build the mountain or whatever,
and people are like, that's, yeah.
I think they just have this
emotional reaction of not fun.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Speaker 2: it's very, I
Speaker: guess, I guess it's, I guess
you should calibrate yes, it's, yes.
If I ask you how you're
doing, tell me not so great.
Even if you're actually having
the best time of your life.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
I'm not gonna do that, but yes that
one is also about the trickiness of the
Americans question, how are you doing?
Which is not, does not always
literally mean what it sounds like.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Thanks Marcus.
Yeah.
Action by action.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And I like the I get a very flowy sense
from this one of you want things to
happen, but it might not happen the
way you expect, but you just let the
world flow over you and try to point
it in the direction you want it to go.
Eventually you'll get there.
Speaker: An alternative
will present itself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that.
33.
To accept it without arrogance
to let it go with indifference.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Cu Humility.
Speaker: Humility.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: And detachment or Yeah,
Speaker: Yeah.
Did ever tell you the story about how I
found it very weird when I first moved to
America that people, you would compliment
them and they would say, thank you.
Interesting.
That was the weirdest thing.
I was like, that's so rude.
Oh, be
Speaker 2: because the proper
response is to compliment them back.
Speaker: No, it's to be like no.
Speaker 2: Oh, I see.
That's what I thought.
Yes.
Okay.
But that is a form of arrogance.
Yes.
This is very cultural too.
I feel like we're depending.
Yes.
Okay.
But interesting.
Yes.
You're supposed to say no,
you're supposed to be modest.
Yes.
I,
Speaker: that's what I always thought.
But if you're saying thank you, that's
accepting it without arrogance and Yeah.
That's the right thing to do.
I think today, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I think I've grown up along a
similar trajectory actually.
Yeah.
Where I, I think I also have, we,
even Americans are taught that
modesty is good as children, and
then Yes, you, I think you learn.
Yes.
I remember having a trajectory where
like my default reaction to any
compliment for a while was like deny
and deflect somehow and come up with
a way to, but also be very arrogant
under yeah, under, underneath.
That is actually like a, you're like, ha
Speaker 3: Ha.
Yes,
Speaker 2: you're right.
But we have to play this game now.
Yeah.
Of me not acknowledging it and coming
up with a way to change the subject
so you don't insist or whatever.
You
Speaker: know what, so maybe the
cultural element is perpendicular
to whether or not you are actually
accepting it without arrogance.
Yeah.
And you can say Thank you and
be arrogant, and you can say no.
Not be arrogant.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I think that's right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yes,
Speaker 2: yes.
Okay.
But to actually accept compliments
without, genuinely without arrogance.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is nice.
I'm reading this, the it in this ambiguous
it in this sentence almost as more
something negative though, actually.
Ah I'm reading it as I see,
life deals you a crappy hand.
The arrogant response is, this sucks.
I don't deserve this.
Not fair.
Yeah.
Not fair.
But if you just say, okay that's
the not arrogant response.
There you go.
And then whatever it is, maybe something
you've turned from bad to good goes away.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker 2: And you say okay to that too.
Very, this to me is very this is
the Buddhism crossover for Marcus.
It's
Speaker: that we all live this way.
Speaker 2: Yes.
That totally impossible.
Yeah.
Okay.
I've just read the first sentence of entry
34 and it's so jarring to me that I'm
going to, I can't keep thinking about 33.
I have to just jump
right into, let into 34.
Let's go.
This is great.
Speaker: Lemme read some part of it.
No, it's fine.
It's fine.
You do it.
You do.
Speaker 2: Okay.
All right.
I'm just gonna read it.
Have you ever seen a severed hand or foot
or a decapitated head just lying somewhere
far away from the body it belonged to?
Yes, question mark.
That's what we do to ourselves.
Or try to, when we rebel against what
happens to us, when we segregate ourselves
or when we do something selfish, you
have torn yourself away from unity.
Your natural state when
you were born to share in.
Now you've cut yourself off from it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But you have one advantage
here you can reattach yourself.
A privileged God has granted to no
other part of, no other whole to be
separated, cut away and reunited.
But look how he singled us out.
He's allowed us not to be broken
off in the first place, and when
we are, he's allowed us to return
to graft ourselves back on and to
take up our old position once again.
Part of a whole.
Speaker: Okay.
So obviously it's fantastic
that his analogy is.
It's a severed hand.
Speaker 2: You, you've cut your
head off and thrown it away.
Yes.
It's,
Speaker: it's like the
most, it's the perfect.
An thank you so much, Marcus.
Thank you.
This is what we're here for.
Yes.
Yes.
Is the sort of kitchen table
analogies, Marcus's time?
Yes, that's right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: The very fun historical detail.
Yeah.
And.
Yes.
What better metaphor for the idea
that you might be separating yourself
from yourself or Yeah, exactly.
Perfect yourself into pieces.
Yeah, into as for, to literally
tear yourself into pieces.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess the modern analogy of this is,
is having to be two-faced or something.
But it's this is so much better.
This is so much clearer.
Speaker 2: It's very evocative.
I will say, yeah, I started reading that
entry, just reading the first sentence
and I, for once I was like, Marcus, I
have no idea where you're going with this.
Nice.
Which is not usually, often when we
start reading an entry from Marcus,
we're okay, I know where this is headed.
I did not know where this one was headed.
Speaker: Okay, so walk me through how
doing something selfish severs your limb.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Good question.
Okay.
Here's my take.
I think he sees what happens to us, and
then what we do in response are this like
yin yang mutually beneficial cycle kind of
thing where, the world does something to
you and then you get this nice opportunity
to choose how to respond to it.
And then you have the option to
do the right thing in that moment.
And then what's then?
Then it starts over.
And the really beautiful beneficial
cycle is to just keep making the
good choice over and over again.
And that's what we deep down
want that when we're doing that,
we're connected to ourselves.
But if you say.
World, you've given me an
awful, these terrible choices.
Yeah.
And I hate you and I'm
gonna choose this other one.
Then you break that cycle.
You break your, you break yourself
away from that beautiful flow
you're supposed to get into.
Speaker: Yeah.
That makes sense.
I like.
I was thinking of the analogy where okay,
you walked past the grandma who needed
to cross the street, you didn't help her.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And like when you
do something like that,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: All of a sudden
there's a distinction.
Maybe this goes back to what
we were talking about, like in
the moment you rationalized it.
You were like, oh, it's because I'm busy.
I have to go I something urgent.
Yes.
But then at the same time.
You when you go to bed at night, you
wanna think of yourself as a good person.
Speaker 2: And now you're
thinking about that moment again.
Speaker: And now you have to
construe a story for why you are
simultaneously a good person, but
your arm is over there severed, which
is that you didn't help the old lady
because you thing was too important.
And so there's distance,
but that between yourself.
Yes.
There's all this like awkwardness.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's
very consistent with what's being said
here, and it feels true to me too.
But yeah, it does feel
Speaker: really true to me actually.
Yes.
It's like the cost is, the cost of
doing those things is not immediate.
Like you're not Yes.
In the moment you'll be fine.
It's the aftermath.
Yes.
It's the like invisible identity
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Crisis that happens.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah.
I like that way of, thank you for
making it as concrete as that.
I think that's really nice.
Yes.
I think that's totally right.
I think we make choices that, that seem
expedient and like the right thing in the
moment that we pay invisibly for later.
With
Speaker: like identity
crisis or something?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Or just yeah.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Or,
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: What, and another version of
that comes to mind for me is just like.
The decision in some cases to not
decide on something where you're like,
I'm busy even though this is important
and I should get to the bottom of it.
Maybe you're having a fight with
your spouse or something, right?
You're just Hey, I don't
have time for this right now.
I need to go do this other thing.
Let's deal with this later.
And I think you, you end up just
being this like distracted version
of yourself because you haven't
actually resolved the Oh, okay.
The thing that's on your brain.
And now you are in two places at once.
You're just like, I see you're not
really doing the thing that you're
trying to do and you're not resolving
the thing that's the root of the problem.
Speaker: So there's this sense of self,
which is like basically happiness in
stoicism is just like being yourself
all the time and like liking yourself.
Anytime you do something
inconsistent with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: It's the severance.
Speaker 2: There's something
about being very present too.
I think that's going on in the philosophy
too, that it's about like you're,
yes, the, there are these
things that happen to us, uhhuh.
We have this choice about
how to react to them.
And the options are like he uses the word
rebel, that we can choose to ah, to rebel
against the things that happened to us.
Speaker: Okay, so that's being
not presence, that's being like,
Speaker 2: yeah.
It's being like, yes.
It's like denying the whole
state of the world that,
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: Dealt you that, that card.
You know that it's just saying
Nope, I refuse to accept this
aspect of my existence or
Speaker: whatever.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
Okay.
So and so not just so you can
create segregation, not just
by doing something selfish.
You can also do it by just not
accepting the world as it's like by,
Speaker 2: yeah,
Speaker: by pretending like the world
is something other than what it is.
Yeah.
Do you have another are Yeah.
Speaker 2: Can we give that?
You just, you did a nice job
making that concrete a second ago.
Is there another concrete way we can,
Speaker: I guess the
gulag, I'm not in a gulag.
I can still write poetry.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, I don't know.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: But rebelling against
what, what's what's rebelling in that
Speaker: case?
I guess it's like the,
like you were the emperor.
You were I don't know.
There was a mutiny and now you're.
Sent to a remote island and
was still and not accepting
that is what Yes, has happened.
Okay.
Yes.
Acting like you're still, you ref.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Yes.
Refuse to accept that things
have changed or whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Makes you a less stoic and makes you
Speaker 2: segregated.
Yeah.
Speaker: Segregated person.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
This, the last paragraph where he
talks about you have an advantage
here, you can reattach yourself,
is he's almost sermonizing.
It's hard to believe.
It's nice.
It's from, it's like it's, this sounds
to me like a Christian minister talking
like, not a Marcus' barely here at all.
I feel like
Speaker: this is nice.
This is nice.
Speaker 2: But yeah it's cool.
He
Speaker: gives us a path back,
which is always nice to see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess, like we
were just talking about how he doesn't
talk about mistakes much, but this
is like the most he's ever addressed
the concept of what happens when you
make a mistake, you do this thing.
This is a very forgiving,
Speaker 3: I, I
Speaker 2: think it complicates the
thing we were talking about with
us versus SNA a little bit, because
this I think is actually a very.
I read this as very
permissive of making mistakes.
It's like humans actually have this
superpower where we can make mistakes
and still get back on the road,
still be our full selves afterwards.
Speaker: Boy, that really complicates
our version of, I know, right?
We're it is not really
Speaker 2: undercuts what we were saying.
It might be that she's more in tune
with this philosophy than we are shoots.
Yeah, it's not the outcome
we were rooting for.
Speaker: Let's move on.
She'll, I'll tell her not
to listen to this episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Okay, good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah, you can reattach yourself and
'cause, because 'cause in some ways
that point you made about rebelling
against what happened to us.
If you made a mistake.
You're denying, you're construing
a story where you didn't Yeah.
You're rebelling against
what happened to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Yes, I agree.
Speaker: And so maybe the answer to your
question earlier about are you and I
being stoic by denying our mistakes is No.
No.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that might be right.
Shoot.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And I guess the one last thought I
have on that is I think there's this.
There's something nice if you make
a mistake about being able to look
at it and say, that was a mistake.
Let me see what I can learn
from it, and then move on.
Whereas I think the.
Sure.
The mountain approach
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Tends to leave this
baggage of boy, I gotta make
sure that mountain stays there.
Yeah.
And I know it's like I need to remember
and it like, it has to stay there,
be, I can't just leave it alone.
Yeah.
True.
So in that way.
It acknowledging mistakes I think,
maybe is nice for the stoic process
because once you've looked at them
and acknowledge them and learned from
them, yeah, you're onto the next thing.
You're uncluttered in thinking about
whatever new thing is in front of you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: It clashes a little,
like the line that we talked
about building mountains was,
but there are external obstacles.
Not to behave, but, and then the
response is not to behaving with
justice, self-control in good sense.
Yeah.
It's just said so, it's so pompous
you have no, there's no obstacle to
behaving with self-control in good sense.
It's not true.
There are like, it is harder to do that.
He's,
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker: I guess that's maybe as long
as it's yeah, like you can technically
behave with justice, self-control.
It's not, it's just not easy.
Or like an obstacle in his
definition maybe is something
that's like insurmountable.
Yeah.
Anyway, so
yeah, I guess I'm, I guess part of it
is I read a lot of what Marcus writes
in a very kind of condemning way.
This is the way to do it.
And
Speaker 2: condescending.
Yeah.
Condescending.
Speaker: Yeah.
But maybe that's just
mis, that's a misread.
Maybe he's just saying.
Yeah I'm gonna keep repeating the
right thing, but by no means am
I saying it's easy or am I saying
that you are always gonna do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I like that reading.
I prefer that second
reading you're describing.
And I think in some ways the fact
that he says it over and over again is
evidence that it's not actually easy
for him and that he needs to come back
and journal it over and over again.
Yeah, that's fine.
Nice.
Yeah.
Speaker: Last one.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
35.
We have various abilities present
in all rational creatures, as in
the nature of rationality itself.
And this is one of them.
Just as nature takes every obstacle,
every impediment and works around
it, turns it to its purposes,
incorporates it into itself.
So too a rational being can turn
each setback into raw material
and use it to achieve its goal.
Okay, so very thematically related to
what we were talking about earlier about.
Not letting, like any
setbacks are actually, you'll
always find an alternative.
Yeah,
I've the editor in my brain is really
wanting to cut the first two sentences
of this entry and just say, take
the last sentence please, Marcus.
That's a good entry.
Speaker: We have, what is he?
Talk.
We have various abilities,
like all other animals.
Speaker 2: Really bad topic sentence.
We have various abilities.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Present in all
rational creatures, as in the
nature of rationality itself.
What?
And this is one of them.
Okay.
Just start with whatever this is,
Speaker: what is this?
And this is the ability to turn, yes.
Turn lemons into lemonade.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Yes.
A rational being.
Yes, exactly.
Not only lemons into lemonades, but he's
got an interesting thing where it's like
you can take the setback and turn it to
your purposes, but I like also the way
he says, incorporate it into yourself.
Or at least that's what nature does.
So he is not as, it's not as
simple as saying the kind of
generic, whatever, motivational.
Take every setback is just fuel for
your future success or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's, there's a little bit more
poetry to it here about yes, sometimes
you can turn it to your purposes, but
maybe you also just, maybe you do take
a loss, but it, that becomes a part
of you and separate it to yourself.
Ultimately, that becomes a part of
achieving your whatever the real goal is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
That feels true.
I've, I'm
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
It away.
So the analogy is not turned.
Turn lemons into lemonade,
not turn lemons into lemonade.
And also an appreciation
for life and osis.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: For the fact that sometimes
life is lemons, and that's just a,
just remember that and be grateful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
Lemons into lemonade is such
a weird metaphor to, lemons
are lemons really so bad?
Yeah,
Speaker: I know, right?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Sometimes I feel like part of the point.
That I'm getting from this
is sometimes you can't even
turn the lemons into lemonade.
Sometimes the lemons just suck.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the idea that you
could always turn lemons into
lemonade is like pat and cliche.
But
Speaker: yeah,
Speaker 2: you can do something.
I don't know exactly how you
incorporate the juices, lemons into
yourself, but somehow you do that.
You learn to identify useless
lemons in the future and
Speaker: poop into caid.
Yeah.
There's nothing.
Yeah.
No, you can't make.
Poop into anything.
So you just make it
part of yourself, right?
Yeah.
You just with jokes.
Yeah.
You could make it, you could,
you just at that point you're
just like, all right, this is
something that happens sometimes and
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Now you know and you, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: And that's the raw material.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Raw material is an interesting phrase.
Yeah.
Each step back into raw material that,
that is very lemons into lemon ad, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Thanks Marcus.
Yeah.
Marcus seems I bet you if you
brought problems to Marcus, he
would be the third H though.
He's a third H kind of guy,
Speaker 2: which is help,
Speaker: which is Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree.
Yeah.
Turn heard and hugged don't seem
like necessarily his strong suits.
I agree.
He's irrational
Speaker: being, can set every
setback into raw material.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Thanks, mark.
He's very, I wonder how he, how
developed he is on the Yeah.
Herd.
Is he really capable?
Of empathy and compassion,
or is he always like this?
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah.
We're not gonna find out, but we'll
continue to investigate next time.
Speaker: Next time.
Thanks, Tom.
All right.
Speaker 2: See ya.
Speaker: Bye.