Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships, from TruStory FM. Today, we're taking on truly the most horrific subject thus far on the podcast. How do you split your pets?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson, with my good friend Pete Wright, and we're joined today by Karis Nafte, dog trainer and animal specialist from South Africa. She also just so happens to be an internationally-accredited family mediator. In her work, she combines her wealth of experience of dogs and family pets with mediation to help her clients make the best decisions for their pets' well-being. Welcome to The Toaster.
Karis Nafte:
Thanks for having me, guys.
Pete Wright:
Okay, Karis, this is going to be great. I'm very excited about this. I've got my dog with me here just as my spiritual guide for this conversation. We are actually following up on this conversation we started last week about personal property and this week talking now about our precious family pets. How do we handle the family pets in the personal property decision? I asked the question to Seth. I said, "Seth, are pets personal property?" Seth dutifully dodged the answer with something about local jurisdictions, and now we have you as an expert to help us think about both our relationships with our animals in a divorce and, more importantly, their healthy relationships with us.
Seth Nelson:
Now, Karis, before you get started, I just have to tell you, I'm a huge dog lover. My son is even a bigger dog lover and I told him that you are coming on the show and he says, "You can get a job doing that?"
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I was like, "It's good work if you can get it, buddy, but I can't wait to hear all about it." How did you even get started in pet custody in dividing up fur kids?
Karis Nafte:
I didn't try to do this job. This job found me, so I've been working with dogs and training dogs and helping people with behavior problems for about 25 years. I hate saying that because it makes me feel old, but it's true. I have a lot of experience with really everything you can imagine with dogs, good stories, bad stories, everything in between. What I noticed about 10 years ago was I was seeing dogs who were having pretty rough behavior issues and the reason that they were having those issues, I could trace it back to during a divorce the custody decision wasn't right for the dogs. It was right for the people, but it wasn't actually right for the dogs. Now, we were having lots of behavior problems coming out weeks and months and even years later.
Karis Nafte:
After helping these people after the fact, which is heartbreaking and expensive and messy at that stage, I realized, "Hang on, someone has to come in during the actual divorce process with the point of view of the dog." Most of my work is with dogs. I mean, I work with everything... I've got some good stories, but most of my work is with dogs and so I became a mediator. Now, I combine my work as a mediator and an animal behaviorist and a dog trainer to help meet people at that moment to say, "Listen, let's look at what your dog needs."
Karis Nafte:
As you say, the law says this in different states and in different countries. The law says different things and from my point of view, I obviously know what the laws are and we have to work in respect of the laws, but I'm not that interested in what the law says about the dog. I'm interested in what the dog needs, and that's what I try to work with my people, with my clients.
Seth Nelson:
This is fascinating to me. I have never tried a case where we had to decide where the dog would go. People will argue about it and we typically settle that issue. If it would come up in court it might be, "Well, this is the person who really took care of the dog and did all of the kind of work with the dog," but it would maybe be three to five questions out of a two-day trial. Having you on to discuss this in more detail, I am so excited to have this conversation today. It's just fascinating how you got to where you are today.
Pete Wright:
You said most of your work involves dogs. Are dogs generally more impacted? Less impacted? What species is most impacted in a divorce?
Karis Nafte:
It's mostly dogs that I do work with-
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Karis Nafte:
... because cats-
Seth Nelson:
They're pack animals, right?
Karis Nafte:
... yeah, absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
Right, and someone from the pack just left.
Karis Nafte:
Someone from the pack left and, who does he go to? Where does it go? I think the reason that I deal more with dogs is obviously as many people have cats as dogs, but cats are a lot less mobile, so a lot of the people I work with were having a question, "Should we do shared custody for this particular dog?" Which is not something that comes up very often with cats because cats don't like to move quite so much. It tends to be more obvious with couples, "Who should keep the cat?" I don't get as many calls for advice with cats. It is mostly dogs. I've done a parrot, a couple of pigs, but mostly dogs.
Pete Wright:
Pigs, that's exactly where I hoped we'd end up. Shared pig custody. This is delightful. You already brought up custody and shared custody, and I really want to talk about that because that's the thing we know the least about here. We usually approach custody questions from the perspective of those who can hold a pen, and so you have parents and you have the kids weighing in and everybody talks about that.
Pete Wright:
The question of shared versus sole custody seems to be always left up to the parents who are most impacted by the animal. You know, it's the kids, they love the dog more, but I feel like this question could inevitably end up in a shared custody where the dog is going on one of those wonderful movies of a thousand miles across the Rocky Mountains to try to find their true home. How do you know you're making the right decision when it comes to custody of your animal?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, like what do you look for? How does it work?
Karis Nafte:
That's why it's interesting, guys, because it's not that obvious. I'm going to answer that question in two ways. The thing when I work with a lot of attorneys and mediators just giving them advice about their clients, so my default advice is that if the clients are willing, that it should be written into the agreement that regardless of what decision is made about the dogs, it gets reassessed three months later to see if the dog is coping. Dogs have very obvious signs of stress if you you know what you're looking for, and so we often don't know at the time. If it's a question of, "Should we do shared custody or not?", I will look at things like the history of the dog. Is it a rescue dog? Is it a dog that's had quite a stressful life where transitions have been difficult or his home hasn't been very stable?
Karis Nafte:
I will look at the breed of the dog. Sometimes you'll get call them more working breeds like German Shepherds and Malinois. One of my dogs, I have an Australian Cattle Dog who loves me, but he'd run off with my husband in a second if he left me and like wouldn't even look back. Certain breeds of dogs tend to bond more with one person. That's how they're wired, so for them to do a shared custody is quite traumatic. There's other breeds of dogs that like, no, they don't care. Like, "Whatever, life's cool."
Seth Nelson:
Okay, so I have two Miniature Dachshunds. One is named Theo, he's a long hair, and the other one is Penny. Theo we've had since he was a puppy, and Penny we had since Penny was about 18 months old. What about Miniature Dachshunds?
Pete Wright:
Oh, we're getting into some quite specific therapy here.
Karis Nafte:
Very specific.
Pete Wright:
I didn't know we were going there. All right.
Karis Nafte:
Listen, Seth, you can-
Seth Nelson:
Yes.
Karis Nafte:
... call me after and we can have a session, okay? I'm just kidding.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, excellent. I love that answers, and I'm not even sure I'm [crosstalk 00:08:16] going to split up with anybody. I love my girlfriend very much and I'm trying to make sure that one day when we move in together then I can bring my dogs with me, so I think she would actually take them more than she'll take me, but that's another story.
Pete Wright:
I was going to say, the dogs already love her more, Seth. Don't even [crosstalk 00:08:33] it's settled science.
Karis Nafte:
Exactly, so don't even ask. That's my advice. If it's me or the dog, don't even ask that question. It's never [crosstalk 00:08:39] a good win. Listen, okay, it's a fair question, so I don't want to make a generalization about any breed. I don't want anybody listening to say, "Oh, well, that lady said that this breed can and can't." Every case has to be looked at differently, and if it really isn't a clear, obvious choice, that's why I put in place my check-in three months later. It's like, "Okay, then, we can assess."
Seth Nelson:
What are the signs three months when you're assessing? What's stressful things for dogs?
Karis Nafte:
Okay, so dogs will show stress in a lot of different ways. They will change the character in some way. For some dogs, they'll get very, very withdrawn, so if it was sort of a bouncy, happy, full-of-life kind of dog, they may withdraw. They may start spending a lot of time alone in a room or they just seem like don't have the energy they used to have. You will get other dogs who go the opposite way. They become manic. They cannot settle. Everybody these days kind of loves the word anxiety. That's a little bit of a soapbox of mine, so they will say, "Oh, my dog just has so much anxiety," and normally what that means is your dog has just got a little too much energy in their body. They don't know what to do with it and it needs an outlet, but that can be a sign of stress.
Karis Nafte:
The more hectic things that I deal with, the more complicated stuff is sometimes dogs start to get snappy and aggressive. They'll behave aggressively. They can get genuinely very aggressive. They will get destructive, so they'll start chewing up the furniture and they'll start chewing up the garden. They might become aggressive to dogs when before they were friendly. Some dogs I see start chewing on their bodies, like they chew their pads or they lick themselves raw and they pull off parts of their hair, that sort of thing.
Seth Nelson:
This is all change in behavior?
Karis Nafte:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
That's what the key thing you're looking for-
Karis Nafte:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
... when you're doing this?
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, and I've got a couple of good stories. One of the very first clients, and actually, it was two Miniature Dachshunds, and I'm not even making it up, Seth, so this applies to you.
Seth Nelson:
There we go, Pete.
Karis Nafte:
There we go.
Seth Nelson:
See?
Karis Nafte:
Okay, and see?
Seth Nelson:
Right, coming back around.
Pete Wright:
All right, you win this round.
Karis Nafte:
See, Seth and I are in sync and we didn't even discuss [crosstalk 00:10:44] beforehand, so that's pretty cool.
Seth Nelson:
Karis, we're in sync now until I tell you what I call in my family proud parenting moments, and proud parenting moments are when you do really something poorly as a parent. It's very sarcastic, so we're on sync now. You're not going to like me in a few moments-
Pete Wright:
Oh, okay.
Karis Nafte:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
... but continue about the Dachshunds.
Karis Nafte:
Okay, okay, so I had a client who had two Dachshunds and he called me because his dogs were peeing on the couch, which I deal with a lot, so I said, "Okay." In getting a history, it came to me that the dogs only peed on the couch every two weeks. I said, "Well, that's very odd. What happens every two weeks?" He said, "Well, every second weekend they go to my ex-girlfriend and they spend time with her. When they come home, they pee on the couch for about three days."
Karis Nafte:
It's very obvious to me and anyone who works with dogs that that sort of peeing on the couch is a stress reliever. It's sort of an anxious behavior, and as the story came out and I got more of a history and I met the girlfriend and all of that, the dogs were really bonded with their dad. That's where they wanted to be. It was not a nice transition when they went to the girlfriend. They fought every time, the pickup and the drop-off. Every time was a fight. What I helped them see was that the truth is they weren't that interested in the dogs, that there was just an attempt to keep the relationship going in a little bit of an unhealthy way.
Karis Nafte:
That was a good example of how dogs show stress, so I said, "Look, let's experiment. Let's keep the dogs just with dad for a few months," and the peeing stopped. The dogs were happy and everything was easy. That's a very obvious example of the kind of stuff that I deal with a lot.
Pete Wright:
That actually brings up a really interesting question to me and, I don't know, maybe it's not interesting to anybody but me, but this idea of using the pets as some sort of tool in the separation, whether it's to, like you say, to keep the relationship moving in some direction or where the pets become a vessel of something else.
Seth Nelson:
I see that all of the time, not just in items or the kids, using them as weapons, or the pets as a vessel to stay in the relationship and keep a connection, even as Karis says, it's an unhealthy way to stay in a relationship. The thing that I see most often is people staying in the litigation. They don't settle their case because that's the only thing that still connects them.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
They're just not ready to let go and move on with their lives. Those will end up going to trial and there will be an emotional release at the end of trial that is not so much the outcome of the trial. That's when a judge says, "You're now divorced." I see it all of the time. I'm sure Karis sees it with the dogs, correct?
Karis Nafte:
All the time, really all of the time, and what I find is when people are willing to work with me, most of the time they're kind of at a point... I will say this to people joking/half joking. I say, "If you need to carry on fighting, I understand that, but let's not fight over the dog because the dog's going to get stressed." If we can at least have that conversation and look at the dog for what it is and not keep the fight stuck on the dog, then something moves and something shifts. Absolutely it happens. It's often not about the dog. Sometimes it is, but that's the reality of it.
Pete Wright:
Is there ever a shared custody situation that works? You say it so often depends on the dog, on the breed, on the relationship. Is that something that you've ever been able to recommend?
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, I have, so it's very often a lot of my clients who've got children that move back and forth, what they want to arrange is that the dog moves with the children and if this works well for both parents. For many dogs that this works for, the children are sort of the steady factor, so they kind of get it and they move with Billy and Sally or whoever. The main factor that works in shared custody is, what is the relationship like with the two people? Is it cleanly over and they can exchange this dog peacefully and without a lot of emotional stuff? If the relationship is not cleanly over and it's a very stressful handoff every time, the dogs just can't cope with that. They absorb it like a sponge.
Karis Nafte:
If the people are okay with each other, if it's the sort of dog that's got a really easygoing nature, and again, I'm not... Let's picture, for example, a Golden Retriever, but it can be any easygoing dog. They are very often more okay with it, and it doesn't have to be children. It can be shared, but what I do tell people is that if you are considering shared custody, you need to know that the shared custody is not for the benefit of the dog. It is for the benefit of the people. Some people, they kind of think, "Oh, but my dog can't say goodbye to me," and that's not true. Dogs are very good at saying goodbye. People are not good with saying goodbye. The question is more, can the dog tolerate shared custody? Not, "Oh, for the doggie's sake we're going to do shared custody." That's what people have to at least be clear about.
Seth Nelson:
That's really interesting. They're actually trying to do something positive for their dog, but it might be more stressful for them-
Karis Nafte:
Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
... going back and forth.
Karis Nafte:
Yep, yep.
Seth Nelson:
Gotcha.
Pete Wright:
I can imagine that is a central challenge in your work is reminding people of that point and getting them to believe it.
Karis Nafte:
Yes. It's-
Seth Nelson:
I will tell you, almost everything Karis said on stress, going back and forth, not making the dog the issue, it's about the dog, it's not about us the parents, you can just insert the word "kids."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Unfortunately, parents will fight over kids and use them as tools. It's not about you, it's about the kids, but what makes it difficult and much, much different with kids is I don't think, and Karis, I'm posing this as a statement. It's really a question for you. Does one party say, "Well, I'm just not good with the dog, so they should stay?" I'm never going to have a parent that says, "I'm just not a good parent. I think the kid should be with the other parent." I'm like, "That does not happen in my world." How about in your world with dogs? Like, "I'm not really a dog person. It was always her dog." It's not a big decision.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah. People in that situation don't need my help, so it's not an issue. I love hearing stories like that where it's just clear and it's not a fight. I think there are plenty of people like that who they want their freedom. They want to move into a... or they want freedom to travel or whatever it is, so it just depends on everybody. What is interesting, I had another case where a husband and their wife separated. They got a divorce. They had three little kids and they had a German Shepherd who was about four. She called me after the fact because the dog was chewing up her couch like all of her furniture. At the time of divorce, the parents weren't fighting at all. They just said, "Well, the dog should, of course, stay with the kids. You've got the big yard. You've got the kids. That's who should keep the dog."
Karis Nafte:
The dad in this story used to take the dog for a run every morning like religiously. He would work the dog and train it, and then when he moved out, he stopped. The mom didn't have time to run this dog because she totally had her hands full. She loved the dog, but she had three kids, so what's she going to do? The reason the dog was chewing up the couch, he was so frustrated. Now, he's missing this... German Shepherds, they need to be useful in the world. They need to feel like they have a purpose, and even if that purpose is catching a Frisbee for an hour, they need it.
Karis Nafte:
I chatted to them after and I said, "Actually, this dog probably needs his exercise more than the kids." The dad ended up with the dog. He had a smaller yard and he worked full time, but he still worked the dog every day and the dog was happy. That does also happen, interestingly, but then I usually have to come in when things have gone wrong to try to help.
Pete Wright:
I don't work my kids hard enough. That's the truth.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, get them out there, Pete. Do the dishes, do something.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. They need to be catching more Frisbees, frankly.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, so I wanted to share with you, Karis, my worst "proud parenting" moment. I am then going to give myself a very weak defense to this issue that any jury would hang me and string me up. Remember, my kid's a huge dog lover-
Karis Nafte:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
... and one morning when he woke up, it was on a weekend. I told him, "I'm going to get you a puppy," and he just started smiling. Then, the next words out of my mouth were, "April Fools." The worst thing I've ever done to my child. I am laying it out there. I'm being vulnerable. I assure you it's like dead silence on this podcast now. You should see their faces, like jaw-dropping like everyone else just did. Anything you say is not even close to how badly I beat myself up over this for the last 10 to 11 years because my son is now 16, so he was like five or six. Horrible.
Pete Wright:
When he was five [crosstalk 00:20:08]-
Seth Nelson:
Pete, I told you this was my worst proud parenting moment ever and I told you that I wasn't even going to tell you what it was going to be because I knew you would be coming at me, but what's even worse, Pete, is I got silence out of you. That's the first time ever.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. You know, you disappointed [crosstalk 00:20:26]. That's-
Seth Nelson:
Huge.
Pete Wright:
... what you got just now.
Seth Nelson:
Now, are you ready for my weak defense, Karis?
Karis Nafte:
I guess. I mean, what am I going to do? Go for it.
Seth Nelson:
I...
Pete Wright:
Has lost faith in the podcast, in you-
Seth Nelson:
I know.
Pete Wright:
... as a host and maybe as an attorney.
Karis Nafte:
This is just all a big mistake. Okay, go for it, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
I did get my son a puppy. I got him Theo, the Miniature Dachshund that we discussed briefly earlier. Granted, it was about 10 years later. I said this was a weak defense, which he points out to me every time this comes up. When I told him you were coming on the podcast, he said, "You going to talk about your proud parenting moment?" I said, "I really don't want to." He said, "You have to," so there it is. I am bearing my soul. I am not perfect by any stretch.
Karis Nafte:
Okay, so if your son is listening, which I'm sure he will, I'm sorry and I can only hope that if you end up with 700 dogs in your life later, your Dad will know it's all his fault. That's all I can say.
Seth Nelson:
That's right, and I'll have to fund it.
Pete Wright:
That you send him your bill [crosstalk 00:21:30] for food and shots and, yeah. They will be the healthiest, most perfect dogs.
Seth Nelson:
Which actually leads me to a question, Karis, to get the topic off of me and my proud parenting moment. Do you deal with how the expenses go for the dog? That's an issue that does come up.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, it is an issue that comes up. It depends on the client, but everybody I work with has either a divorce attorney or a mediator that they're working with. I don't get too much into the finances because I don't know the rest of the story of the couple. I don't know who's paying for what or what the maintenance story is. I do work with them on who gets to choose the vet, end-of-life things.
Karis Nafte:
If this is an elderly dog, who's going to make the decision about if the dog needs to get put down and that sort of thing, but the actual finances, no. I work in collaboration with their mediator or an attorney to sort of incorporate that into the rest of the household. If you can hear something in the background, that is my dogs. I apologize.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
My husband's under strict instructions to keep them quiet. I've got four dogs downstairs, so yeah-
Seth Nelson:
It's a podcast, we're talking about dogs. I think they get to chime in.
Pete Wright:
In fact, yeah, I might just take it and loop it in the background, so there's always dog. Thinking about this whole idea where somebody brings an animal into the relationship and the animal falls in love with the other person.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
How does that work out in a dog-esque shared property?
Karis Nafte:
That's a rough one sometimes.
Seth Nelson:
So wait-
Pete Wright:
Conflict.
Seth Nelson:
... wait a minute. Let me get this straight now, Pete. I bring my dogs into the relationship. My dogs fall in love-
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
... with my girlfriend/wife, and now we're splitting up and I've got to swallow the pill, Karis, that I have to leave my dogs with her? Is that what you're about to tell me?
Karis Nafte:
Maybe.
Pete Wright:
Seth, at this point, dogs are not staying with you ever-
Seth Nelson:
No.
Pete Wright:
... so let's go ahead and not use as an example. You're-
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Now, just for the record, now I'm going to defend myself strongly and then we'll get to this question. Karis, as you know, two Miniature Dachshunds. They're not supposed to be jumping on and off of furniture because it's very bad for their back.
Karis Nafte:
Yes, that's correct, yeah.
Seth Nelson:
In my son's bed, I have built a ramp for the dogs to go up to get in and out of his bed, and then in my room... He's got like a loft bed that we did so we can incorporate this. In my room, I actually pulled my bed out from the wall about eight inches because they're very small dogs, and we have a ramp behind my bed for the dogs to come up and stay where they're not jumping on and off the bed, so a little defense for me, Pete, thank you-
Pete Wright:
That's great.
Seth Nelson:
... very much.
Pete Wright:
It's sound like you've done the bare minimum. Good job.
Karis Nafte:
I will give you some credit for that. That's more than a lot of people do, so well done. That's good.
Seth Nelson:
Talk about-
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
... this. When the dog falls in love with the nonowner so to speak.
Karis Nafte:
Dogs don't know they have an owner, so I have to help people see things from their dogs' perspective. You can't look at the past. As far as the dog's concerned, it's not... It is important for people's emotional clarity to look at the story and how things evolved, but for the dog's sake, you have to look at, where are they today? What's going to happen after this separation? Who's going to actually... Not just who do the dogs love, but who's going to have the space and the time and who's willing and wants to spend the time to be with the dogs? If the dogs have genuinely bonded with your girlfriend, the question you have to ask is, do you love them enough to let them go?
Seth Nelson:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
That was poetry right there.
Seth Nelson:
Right there, dagger-
Pete Wright:
I know.
Seth Nelson:
... right through the heart.
Pete Wright:
I'm telling you.
Seth Nelson:
The only answer to that is yes, otherwise, I'm like digging a whole that I'm already like halfway to China.
Pete Wright:
I can't see your head anymore.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Okay, that's a great answer and it's perfect. What about judges? Have you dealt with judges? What's your experience with how judges-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, have you been an expert witness? Have you been in court?
Karis Nafte:
No, I haven't been an expert witness in court, no, and I'm sure I will be at some stage. I'm not really looking forward to it. I try to work with people as much as possible to avoid the judge making the decision. If they in working with me... It's like it's not fair in my role in a mediator sense to then come and try to take sides, so-
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Karis Nafte:
... the whole point of working with me is we don't want a judge to decide because a judge doesn't know your dog. They might know the law. They might give the dog to whoever the name is on the ownership papers, so it's not a... Judges love me because I keep the dog out of the equation, but it is a tricky one.
Seth Nelson:
They bring the dog to the courtroom, one person has treats in their pocket, you know?
Karis Nafte:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
Well, it's interesting you bring that up because I work online. I mean, I work all over the world. I'm from the States, but I live in South Africa. I work all over the place and people say, "But don't you need to see the dog? How do you work with people without actually seeing the dog?" What's interesting is the dogs actually confuse things because I need the story, I need the history, I need to understand the people's relationship with the dog, and seeing the dog for an hour or two isn't actually going to show me what I need to see because it's just going to be a moment and people can't help but kind of manipulate that moment to try to get me on their side.
Karis Nafte:
People often know the right answer to the question of working with me. It's just a matter of can we get there together. I even help people... When I'm not doing divorce mediation, I still do behavior work and I do it online, so if people are having behavior problems, I just help them over Zoom and I get video of the problem and I say, "Cool, I can see what your dog is doing and why. This is what you need to do to fix it." Seeing the dog actually confuses this particular topic.
Pete Wright:
It seems like this common refrain that you keep trying to jam into my head is that the dog doesn't care about the things that I care about.
Karis Nafte:
It's true. Unless it comes to chicken treats and all of that delicious stuff-
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, no, they're animals. The problem with dogs, dogs are so tuned into people. We've bred them to watch and notice our emotions and respond to it. That's why they're not cats. That's why they're good at what they do, but because of that, we assume that they have the same emotions as us, which they don't. They're very simple little creatures. They don't manipulate, they don't feel guilty. I could talk for hours about... You know those awful videos that people send around of like dog shaming videos and guilty dog videos, they actually make me cry because there is no such thing as a guilty dog.
Karis Nafte:
All of the dogs in those videos are terrified. They are so scared of that voice that the owner is using and that staring that people do. If you study dog behavior, all they're trying to say in that body language that we interpret as guilt is they're saying, "Please don't hurt me." They're awful, they're awful. That's a good example of it does dogs a huge disservice to humanize them. They are not little children. They are animals. They're dogs.
Pete Wright:
I'm rendered just a little bit speechless because I'm just thinking, "Oh, what am I doing to my dog? Why do I make him wear pants?"
Seth Nelson:
See, now the tides are turning. I'm just saying, I'm not the only bad actor here.
Pete Wright:
Seth, what's your experience in the courtroom with animals? It's Florida where you are. You probably have gators and-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah-
Pete Wright:
... right?
Seth Nelson:
... we have all sorts of animal issues that come up, but Karis knows my answer. They are just deemed property and if you own that dog coming into that marriage in Florida, that's premarital property, that dog's going to stay yours even if they fell in love with the other spouse. What Karis is saying is very fascinating to me because you can just insert the word "kids." Karis is like, "It doesn't really matter what's happened in the past. What's best for them in the future." Now, how do I prove that in court? I show what's happened in the past.
Seth Nelson:
On the example where the parents worked it out with the German Shepherd that you gave, Karis, I would have been in court saying, "This is the dad that gets up every morning and goes for a run and really has bonded with the dog." They would have just said, "Oh, but the dog likes to sleep in the kids' room," and we would have this thing go back and forth. Then, that decision's made. There's not what Karis is talking about where, "Hey, we got to see how this plays out three months from now, four months from now. Let's see how the dog responds." That decision's made, it's over, it's done. We move on. It is nothing anything qualitative.
Seth Nelson:
The other thing, and I'm not bashing the judges at all on this, you also have to understand what the judges deal with on a daily basis. Well, I'll have clients call me and say, "My ex is doing this, this, and this to the children." I'm like, "The court system's not set up to deal with that." They're like, "But it's so bad, they talk badly to him. They do this, they do that." I said, "Okay, I appreciate that. That behavior shouldn't be happening, but is it at a level where it's so bad the judge is really going to step in? You have a right to raise your children you want to raise your children and if you scold them a certain way or you have a certain tone of voice or you do X or you do Y, you don't have to be the perfect parent. You're allowed to parent your children the way you parent your children.
Seth Nelson:
The case before yours is going to be something horrific where parents have left children and they've been sexually assaulted by a relative. When they hear those types of cases that are just awful day in and day out, and I am not taking dogs lightly at all. Some of them are going to be, "It's personal property. It's a dog. What do you want me to do? Let's move on. I get to get to my next case." That's just the human nature of the very difficult job that family law judges have in front of them. Working with someone like Karis and really figuring this out is the way to go.
Seth Nelson:
Now, Karis, I do have a question for you because I think people get the emotional attachment. I've got two questions, really. One is, what about the saying, "You can always get another dog?" If we're making the right decision and the dogs are going with my girlfriend, is it all right to tell me, "Seth, you can always get other dogs?" That's one question. I also want to know your view on the term "fur babies" or fur kids because I hear that a lot now and just from an expert, I'd like to get your input on that.
Karis Nafte:
Well, those are both very good questions and I think to answer your first question, it depends on how you say it because if you say it to try to... If you say, "Oh, you can just get another dog because I want this dog," then it's not going to be heard well at all. That sort of language, it's just completely... In the actual negotiation of the dog, it doesn't help and it actually hurts to sort of say, "Well, why don't you just get another dog?"
Pete Wright:
It sounds so much more like it's a sign that your relationship is still so fundamentally broken, you're not communicating anymore. You're stabbing one another with words.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
Exactly [crosstalk 00:33:09] and I do a lot of work with my clients. As all mediators do, I do a lot of individual sessions. I very much am a go-between because some of the people I'm working with are not in mediation. They have two attorneys but they've brought me in to help on this issue. They can't talk, but I can be the go-between to help them. To come back to your question, the truth is you can get another dog in the long term because time heals a lot of things. We all have stories of that dog we loved, and then at some point in the future, you can get another dog. When I work with my people who come to my dog training school, they often... I had one family that had a little Yorkshire Terrier who drowned in a swimming pool and it was just terrible and it was-
Seth Nelson:
Oh.
Karis Nafte:
... a little puppy. They got a dog the next day. They quickly got another the one the next day. I was like, "You got to let it... Mourn the dog-
Seth Nelson:
Give yourself-
Karis Nafte:
... and then-
Seth Nelson:
... some time, right.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, so that sort of thing I definitely don't and I say to the people like who with children it's like, "Okay, well, the dog staying with Mom was a Labrador. Don't worry, Dad's going to get a Labrador puppy, too." It's like, that's not the right attitude and you got to let it wait, and the reason that's not right is that new Labrador puppy was bought for the wrong reasons and I promise you, it's going to have behavior problems later because it won't have been raised exactly in the right way.
Karis Nafte:
That's maybe a good way to answer that first question. As far as fur kids go and fur babies, so I'm going to say this. I love my dogs. I love my children and I also really love my dogs a lot, but fur kids is a dangerous term, and I say dangerous with a little twinkle in my eye because they are not children, but for a lot of people, they have taken that place of actually being the child. A lot of the dogs that I see who are having very interesting difficult behavior problems, it's because they get too much attention. They carry too much emotional weight for the whole family.
Karis Nafte:
It's like imagine a family that has a child that they've put all of their hopes and dreams in. He's going to go to Yale and he's going to be perfect. That same family desire, if they put it onto their Pit Bull puppy, it's too much for a dog. They're not meant to be the focus of a household. It's if you really love your dog, you'll see it for what it is. You won't try to make it more than it is, and really loving a do is understanding, what does the dog need? How much exercise does it need? How much time alone does it need? What do kind of good boundaries and good training actually look like? Spoil... I mean, spoiling isn't even the right word. It's making the dog too important in your life is actually stressful on dogs.
Karis Nafte:
Fur kids, as that sort of language where people are so kind of living their life around... I'm saying this as someone who literally spends all day with dogs. My whole life is about dogs, but I really see them as this beautiful canine, this relative of a wolf that wants to change things that move and pretend to kill them and roll and poop and eat poop and do dog things. They're not little fuzzy kids, so it's important that people can make that distinction just in the way that they love their dog. Love them a dog. Don't love them as a child substitute. It hurts the dogs.
Seth Nelson:
On that point, I think to build off of that is, I think, if you're dealing with this, getting a divorce, what are going to do with the dog? You have kids, it seems to me one thing that people should keep in mind is when you're talking to kids about divorce, it's the parents, sure. "Your Dad and I, your Mom and I, we're going to make the best decisions we think for you." Depending on the age of the kid, you might have some input, but you don't get to make the final decision.
Seth Nelson:
Then, when talking to kids about what's going to happen with the dog is, "We're going to make the best decision for the dog. That might be at Mommy's house, it might be at Daddy's house. It might be going back and forth, but we're going to look at this behavior and see how it's going. Let's say it's at Dad's house and you're at my house, Mom's house, and down the road we want to get a dog later, then we'll discuss that at a later time, but we're not doing that tomorrow." Is that a good way to approach it you think with children?
Karis Nafte:
Absolutely, and I think it's such a good lesson for kids. Depending on how old the kid is, if kids can shift their perspective to understand that, "Wow, I love my dog enough that, yes, I want my dog to be happy. Maybe I won't see him every single day, but when I do seem him, he'll be happy." Then, it's like, "Listen, once our life is sort of... we've found a new routine, let's see if we've got time for a dog."
Karis Nafte:
You know what? When parents separate, it's a whole new thing being a single parent. It's the amount of time and depending on the custody arrangement, it's challenging. You need to know, are we going to have time? Can we be good dog parents in this way? It can be handled and used as such a good lesson if the parents can have that attitude and kind of share it with their kids. It's great.
Pete Wright:
I think it's so great. I think it's the whole idea that if you develop a healthy relationship with your dog and allow that healthy relationship with a dog to be developed with you, then it makes the divorce process easier for everybody, for the dog, for the kids, for the parents, everybody. It sounds like your work might extend beyond the confines of the divorce process. Do you help people acclimate with their pets to the new relationship beyond divorce?
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, I do, yeah. I've got a few different hats, so I have my pet mediator hat, and that's the actual divorce negotiation, and then I work with people after the divorce. It's like, "Okay, well, Rover's doing X, Y, and Z. Let's work with it." Or, "Some of my clients just before the dog's had a chance to sort of have behavior problems, they still want some support just going through it. Then, I will put my dog trainer hat on and my behavior consultant hat on and say, "Cool. That decision's been made. Now, I can take a deep breath whatever the decision is, shared custody, not shared custody, and let's work with it," so I do.
Karis Nafte:
I change gears depending on what people need because I get very attached to these people and dogs. It makes me so happy that I can offer this sort of support to people. It's like I can't even tell you. I talked to my other dog trainer friends and they go, "Oh, my God, that sounds like the worse thing in the world." They just want to teach puppy school and I say, "Well, it's great. It's wonderful. I love it. I love it.
Pete Wright:
This has been fantastic. Karis, where can people learn more about your work? Where would you like to send them online to learn about what you do? Are you taking new folks who need your help?
Karis Nafte:
Yes, yeah, I am, absolutely. When I work with people, I say, "We want to try to work with this as quick as possible. We don't need to draw it out," so I get new clients in all of the time, and then it's over and it's resolved and we can move forward. If people want to reach me, my website is called whokeepsthedog.com, whokeepsthedog.com, and they can find me there. Easy to remember, and I'm on Instagram as my name, which is @karisnafte, K-A-R-I-S, N-A-F-T-E, and you can find me on LinkedIn there as well.
Seth Nelson:
Karis, thanks for coming on How to Split a Toaster. It's been such a joy. I learned a lot and I think a lot of our listeners are going to be able to refocus when they're thinking about this issue in a different way, and that's why we're here. When we talk about How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships, that includes your pets, especially your dogs.
Karis Nafte:
Definitely. Thank you, guys. It's been awesome to be here.
Pete Wright:
To everybody out there listening, we put together a new forum on the website. It's a little button and you can ask a question. If you want to ask a question and drop your question to us if it's a question that we can send to Karis. Maybe she can jot us a quick note. We'll follow up in the coming weeks, so-
Seth Nelson:
If you have any other questions that you want us to discuss on any other topics, send them our way. We're happy to try to tackle them for you.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. On behalf of Karis Nafte and the good Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, divorce podcast about save your relationships.
Announcer:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
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