Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Thank you, Brand Nerds, for joining us. We get, like, giddy when we think about how you invite us into your cars when you're at the gym, on the track, and in your home.
Ah, you make Brands Beats and Bytes, what it is. So, Brand Nerds, we say salute to you. Well, Brand Nerds, you know how we like to keep coming at you with guests that sometimes you expect and sometimes you don't. LT, I've got one word to sum up the guest today, and that word is range. Range.
LT: Good one.
DC: So yeah, Brand Nerds, throughout your marketing and business careers, some may say to you, Well, if you want to do tech, just do tech. If you want to do media and entertainment, just do media and entertainment. But the guest today, LT and Brand Nerds, did not subscribe to that theory with regard to career path. What the guest today said is, uh, you know what? I can do a little CPG, I can do a little beverage, I can do a little QSR, and I can do a little sports and media.
And so, Brand Nerds, with range, you have the ability to go anywhere you'd like to go in your career, and that is exactly who we have in the building today. LT, let the peoples know who we have.
LT: Oh yes, dC. We have Jackie Woodward in the house. Welcome, Jackie. Thank you.
Jackie Woodward: Hey, everybody. Great to be with you guys today.
LT & DC, thanks for having me.
LT: Well, we're thrilled to have you. And you know, when our mutual friend, Tim Spangler says, you gotta have Jackie on. Well, we're like, we're back. Can we book? So that was great. Tim is a, is a wonderful friend of both of us. I know. So, okay. Brand nerds. We have someone here who has been a big time CMO for a number of brands you know, and we dare say you love. And when our mutual friend Tim Spengler says, you got to have this person on.
Well, Jackie, we just had to find the date and here we are. So Jackie is known for her unique skillset, combining classic strategic brand building with driving brands into the digital age. So let's walk you through Jackie's path to this success. So Jackie starts out at the University of Missouri and earns her earns her degree in journalism.
And for those who don't know, Missouri is one of the best J schools in the world. Jackie embarks upon her career on the agency side with Golan Harris Communications on the very prominent McDonald's account. Great place to cut your teeth, Brand Nerds. So now Jackie is in the great McDonald's marketing machine, and she moves over to Sports America, working on the very prestigious McDonald's All American High School Basketball game, 1989, a guy named Shaquille O'Neal plays on that team and Jackie reunites with him a little later. We'll get into that.
DC: Who's that guy? Who's this Shaquille O'Neal character?
LT: Who could that be? What a marketer he is. So now McDonald's corporate comes calling for Jackie. And in this, she joins them working her way up to senior director of marketing where in her 10 years there, she does many great things, including this, what I think is incredible highlight.
So check this out. The, she is involved in creating and executing and really leading that McDonald's first global marketing programs with the Olympics, World Cup, and Disney sponsorship in 100 plus countries. And that includes more than 650 annual promotions worldwide. Think about that for a second, the magnitude of that is incredible, right?
DC: It is, it is.
Jackie Woodward: So it was a great team.
LT: I'm sure it was. So in also in that Jackie also architects. The McDonald's feeding the athletes platform, including restaurants in the Olympic Athletes Village in Atlanta, Nagano, and Sydney. Alright, so, Brand Nerds, we talk about this all the time, and that is when you are in the throes of your career climb and decide to take the risk and jump out of the plane and see where it takes you.
So Jackie, Skydive is in year 2000 to join a company with investment banking backing by IMG, SFX, and Rosewood Venture Group. Brand nerds, those are all three incredibly reputable and deep pocketed folks. Yeah, and this, uh, this is a new venture here in the San Francisco Bay named UltimateBid. com. And she joins them as their GM of consumer products, where in this role, she leads business growth, marketing, customer service, and fulfillment.
She also guides their successful strategic development, user interface, and site product launch with somebody called eBay, which was flying at the time. While the company didn't survive, the business model did. And it's something called StubHub, which we all know of. So D, you know what I love about this and Brand Nerds, we really like to call this out for you here. While this situation did not become what Jackie, her colleagues, and their investors hoped it would, Jackie is smart enough to not burn bridges. Where she leaves McDonald's hq and only one year later after being at ultimatebid.com She rejoins McDonald's and at a time we may add that they were really struggling And she rejoins them as their VP of Global Marketing where she and her team lead the launch Of the uber successful, "I'm loving it" campaign where many observers claim. This is the foundation for turning the company around. Additionally, she starts the first ever global strategy for women mothers, providing the foundation for double digit sales growth in key geographies. So after five years second stint, At Mickey D's, Miller Coors comes a calling and taps Jackie to be their VP Media and Marketing Services.
And eventually she adds marketing connections to her title and her responsibility. So she's ultimately responsible for media, digital, sports and entertainment, marketing, retail, licensed merchandise, and agency relations. So highlights there include. First highlight corporate selects her to lead one of nine global initiatives, activation development for the definitive SAB Miller marketing way.
Next one, driving marketing synergies over delivering media savings and agency consolidation goals. And the next one, implementing connections planning and leading integrating agency model to improve ideas for better marketplace impact. So after this success, Jackie joins General Mills, and that's part of the range that DC was alluding to.
Big General Mills, one of the best CPG companies in the world. As their VP of Global Media, where highlights there include creating a new function responsible for paid media, own publishing platforms, consumer incentives, and box tops for education. Another highlight, creating and implementing consumer connections, planning across five U. S. operating units, and Europe, which all results in greater consumer engagement and shifts to digital. Okay, so look, she's making things happen. So with all these great stepping stones, now Jackie earns a great big next step where Krispy Kreme Donuts hires Jackie to be their CMO responsible for all aspects of global brand growth and stewardship.
And by the way, this is where she has a little reunion with our friend Shaq. Highlights there include driving mid single digit top line and double digit EBITDA growth in consecutive years, including seven of the top 10 sales days and the top two sales weeks in the U. S. Company's history.
So as a now successful CMO with vast quick serve experience, Bojangles, a very popular chicken and biscuits chain in the southeast. I went to school in North Carolina's, you know, Brand Nerds and old Bojangles is something someplace we all love. Anybody spend time in the southeast? They hire Jackie as their CMO.
In her five years with Bojangles, she and her team lead up new brand logo design and help grow revenues and restaurant expansion to great new heights. So after leaving Bojangles last September, Jackie is now focusing on consulting, executive coaching, and being on a board of directors. She is currently a member of Chameleon Collective, serving as an interim CMO for brand clients who accelerate business and team growth.
She's also an executive partner with Executive Coaching Connections. Supporting new executive leaders transition from departmental leadership. As we get to the end of Jackie's great bio, she also has served on the board of directors of Kraft Brew Alliance from 2017 to 2020 where the board sold the company to Anheuser-Busch.
She's a past recipient of Chicago Ad federation's Ad Woman of the Year, and has been recognized as one of the top 25 women in business. Charlotte Business Journal and is one of Entrepreneur Magazine's 2022 Top 50 Franchise CMO Game Changers. She's a passionate women's mentor and advocate for helping women grow into their leadership potential.
She's also serving on the National Advisory Board of the Salvation Army, The Advisory Board for Women in Restaurant Leadership for QSR Magazine. And the foundation board for the Village Chapel in Pinehurst, North Carolina. She and her husband, Steve reside there. Looking forward to this one, Brand Nerds.
Welcome to Brand Beats, and Bytes, Jackie Woodward.
Jackie Woodward: Thank you so much. You know, as you reflect on all of that, all I can think about is lots and lots and lots of great people.
LT: I love that about you, Jackie. Yeah, that's cool
Jackie Woodward: Because that's the only way any of those things got done is through great people and I look forward to talking about that with you all today.
LT: Awesome.
DC: So, Jackie, it is a joy to me to watch the faces of our guest when Larry does what he does and going over the career and bio. Uh, it's fascinating to see it. Um, Steve Jobs, uh, rest in power, has a commencement speech that he did at Stanford University that is famous. And one of the elements of that speech is when you're living your life, You're just living your life.
I'm paraphrasing. And it may not make sense, but it's when you look back that you can start to connect the dots. And I'm not, I have not lived your life, but even I can see some of the dots connecting over the course of your career. So congratulations on that, Jackie.
Jackie Woodward: Well, this should be interesting. I'd love to hear about that.
Yeah.
And it took me a good long time to figure out what some of those dots or red threads
Um, you know, are, but, uh, but they're there. We can talk about that.
DC: They're definitely there. All right, Jackie. So we, we're getting to the next section. It's called Get Comfy and Larry and I will sometimes confer on this and we might arrive at the same place, but sometimes we're in different places and this is one of those occasions where we're in a different place.
I want to go to Shaquille O'Neal and the Steve jobs, uh, quote or paraphrase. And in my case, You met a high schooler, uh, Shaquille, Shaquille O'Neal today, as you Brand Nerds know, he may be a billionaire already, if not certainly approaching that he is the owner of Reeboks among others, um, the, uh, he has the rights to the image of Marilyn Monroe and other esteemed brands, global brands.
He is a major player in the Papa John's, uh, Pizza and Food Empire, QSR, and there are countless other things that he is a part of. Not the least of which is serving as one of the co hosts on the TNT show, uh, for the, uh, for the NBA. So that he, he is truly, um, uh, a multi hyphenate talent and entrepreneur.
But back when he was in high school, he was just a basketball player. And I don't mean that to be a denigrating of him, but he was a basketball player. He wasn't all of these things. My question to you, Jackie, Is you had a chance to work with him as a teenager in high school. And then later at Krispy Kremes and I'm in here in Atlanta, Brand Nerds, as you know, and one of the most famous Krispy Kremes in the, in the country happens to be here in Atlanta. With me on, I think, uh, uh, uh, uh, Ponce de Leon or here in Atlanta, they would call it Ponce de Leon. Okay. All right. The, the, the French might have something to say about that. Did, what did you see in Shaquille as a youngster that in some way is a, if it exists, a red thread using your words, Jackie, to where you worked with him later as a, as an established entrepreneur.
Jackie Woodward: Yeah, well, that's a really great place to start DC because I can't say enough good things about Shaquille O'Neal. Um, and I would say, uh, thinking back to that high school time, he's, he hasn't changed.
DC: Really?
Jackie Woodward: He hasn't changed.
DC: Really? Okay.
Jackie Woodward: And he's a real deal, man. I'll tell you what. I mean, he, and I've worked with a lot of celebrities and I will not tell you stories about the ones who are not, who did change because there are some whose names will go unnamed who, who changed a lot in the years.
LT: We all have those stories, Jackie. Yes. Yes.
Jackie Woodward: You know, what I remember about Shaquille and the, um, 1989 McDonald's all American game was a great personality, very outgoing, very work ethic, a really high work ethic, very driven to success. Um, and a great team player, you know, somebody who, even though he was already starting to be recognized as a star.
Uh, went on to play at LSU, you know, fabulous career, high school, college wise, and then, of course, into the NBA. And, um, but he was already showing himself to be a leader and showing himself to have that, that kind of charisma that made people want to play with him. And holding himself and others to a really high standard.
And, um, and that reached has rekindled itself. When we got back together, I told him I was bookending his career. I was starting his career, ending his career. As we got back together the week he was inducted into the NBA hall of fame.
It was september of 2016. And, um, and to your point, DC, he was going to become the franchisee of that Ponce de Leon, Krispy Kreme donut shop, which he did.
And, um, and then we also had, of course, a personal services agreement with him, but I'll tell you what, he is creative. He has good ideas. He shows up to work. He is prepared. Um, he is engaging with every single person on the set. It doesn't have to just be the boss. It's, you know, people who are doing lighting and the mics and the, and makeup and, um, and he is, uh, he's, he's just a talent all the way around. And he absolutely showed those kinds of, of potential in 1989, as much as he has become the success that he has. I, like I said, I can't say enough good things about him. He's impressive.
DC: Wow.
Jackie Woodward: And a good human too.
DC: And that's the most important thing, right?
Jackie Woodward: That matters. You bet.
LT: Yeah. Right. You know what I, uh, he's always struck me, and I mean this, this as an ultimate compliment, that he gets it. Shaq just gets it.
Jackie Woodward: Mm hmm. Yeah, he does. And, um, he, I mean, he's surrounded himself with good, like I said. How much do you want to talk about him? I could go on. Uh, yeah, he's, he's the real deal and I, and he deserves everything that he's had coming to him. Ironically, now even more full circle is, you know, he started a chicken chain, the, um, Chicken Shack,
right about, uh, right after, well, about five years ago, I guess, 2019, 2020. And it was right as I was going to Bojangles, I was like, dang it, we're not going to be able to work together again.
But just two weeks ago, a guy who worked for me at Bojangles, Joshua Sims Senior, went to go work for Shaq's Big Chicken Shaq, um, as their head of marketing.
LT: Wow. Wow.
Jackie Woodward: You know, those ties that bind, right?
Those ties that bind. The importance of a network, which I'd love to talk about as we get into our session today as well, because I, I place a huge value on the importance of networks.
LT: Mm. As do we. Love that.
DC: You know LT and Jackie, the most important thing to me about Shaquille O'Neal is not Shaquille O'Neal, nor is it his growth, his ascension to a multi hyphenate entrepreneur.
What's most interesting to me about Shaquille O'Neal, is his father, his father. When I was coming up, there weren't many images, positive images of Black men, specifically Black fathers and, um, Shaquille O'Neal's stepdad, who is his father, um, is a military guy.
Jackie Woodward: Yes.
DC: And listening to Shaquille through the years.
Talk about his dad, the reverence he had for his father, the respect he has for his father, the guidance that he listened to from his father that really stuck out for me. And I knew that no matter what would happen with Shaquille on the court, at least I had this confidence that, uh, what I'm about to say was going to be true.
And it's turned out to be this way. It would not, his success would not overwhelm the guidance guidance from his father and his mother. Their presence seemed to be omnipresent in his life, and that made me feel good as a Black man and a lover of Black families. And that, to me, was super important and continues to be super important in my mind with Shaquille.
Jackie Woodward: What an awesome story. I love that DC. I love it. It's an awesome story. And really is, and it's true, is really the embodiment of, uh, of how he lives his life and, and how he, how it plays out, you know, in his engagements and his interactions and the, and the things that he's done.
DC: Yeah. Final thing. And then we'll move to the next segment is Shaquille, like all of us has had some bumps in his life.
Another thing I love about this brother is personal accountability.
He will say to this day with his wife, his ex wife, former wife, Shawnee, I made a mistake. I messed that up. I was stupid. He will say that. Jackie and LT, when people make mistakes, what, what most of us want to do is we want to, it was this person and that person and you, the situation.
No, Shaquille says, no, that was me. And, uh, watching him as a father to his children and as a partner in raising, uh, their children, both he and Shawnee. Chef's kiss. Chef's kiss. All right, we'll keep going because we can wax, wax poetic for the entire podcast about Shaquille O'Neal. So shout Shaquille one time and, uh, Hailey, tag the brother. So he knows we loving on him. All right, Jackie, the next section...
Jackie Woodward: Would love to see you.
DC: All right. Hey, uh, next section is five questions. So Jackie, Larry and I go back and forth with five questions and I get to lead this thing off, go back in time, take yourself back a little.
Jackie Woodward: Yeah.
DC: Think about branding experience you had, Jackie, where you were like, Oh, this is so great.
Whether it be something that you were able to tangibly, um, feel something you heard or an experience, a place you went, what was this first branding experience for you that really connected with your soul? Like a first love.
Jackie Woodward: Yeah. Well, it's very ironic, um, because it has to do with McDonald's, but not McDonald's when I came out of college and went to work for their agency, not McDonald's when I was hired by corp the corporation, not McDonald's at eight Olympics and four World Cups, but McDonald's when I was about seven years old.
LT: Yeah.
Jackie Woodward: I grew up in Springfield, Missouri. And, um, McDonald's came to Springfield right as I was about six or seven years old. Um, franchise. It was a franchise restaurant. Ironically, the franchisee was the, um, the brother-in-law of Fred Turner, who, who became the, who was Ray Croc's first crew person and was the second CEO and chairman of McDonald's.
His, his brother-in-Law.
LT: Wow.
Jackie Woodward: Uh, had the, uh, franchise in Springfield, Missouri, completely ironically. And. We didn't have a lot of money and so we didn't go out to eat very often. And so going to McDonald's was a huge, huge treat for my sister and me. And there was one that was the first one that they built was not very far from our house.
And it was on a travel path that, that we were very frequently on. So we went past it a lot of times. And we, I mean, it was such a huge treat. I can't even tell you how much it meant to us when our parents said we could go to McDonald's for dinner. It was a big deal. Well, right. So it was on a main thoroughfare, but the road behind it was not a main thoroughfare.
There were a lot of houses on it and right behind, right behind that McDonald's on that, on that street, there was a house. And there was a mailbox on the street, and the name on the mailbox was R. McDonald. What? And my sister and I were absolutely convinced Ronald McDonald lived in that house. We were absolutely convinced.
Oh, now I will tell you, you know, those franchisees and I mean, Ray Kroc, the early years of McDonald's. I mean, they were so creative and came up with so many crazy things. Ronald McDonald in and of himself is kind of a crazy thing. When you think about you're old enough and you've looked up the pictures of Willard Scott as the first Ronald McDonald.
I mean, it was nuts, you know, to this day. And I actually have somebody I should ask. He's still alive. Um, Paul Schragi, who was the first and 30 year chief marketing officer of McDonald's before the title even existed. Um, That was right about the time that Paul started. I should probably ask him. I will, because I do not know if there really was somebody who lived in that house, whose name was just our McDonald's or if it was a stunt,
DC: that would be good,
Jackie Woodward: or if it was a stunt, just put that name on the mailbox, no matter who lived there, or maybe they own the property. I have no idea. But to this day, I mean, my sister and I were convinced Ronald McDonald lived there and um, and so now I'm going to have, as I, as I thought about your question and, and really, um, relived that story, I realized I am going to have to find out the answer to that question.
LT: You'll have to report back to us.
Jackie Woodward: That was a real brand moment, I think. What do you think?
DC: Please, please.
LT: D, you got any response to Jackie's story? I just have a quick one. I think We're of similar generations and I know when I was a kid that going to McDonald's was like, I remember when the first one opened and it wasn't even that close to me.
Uh, I grew up in, uh, in Westchester County, New York. The first one in Westchester was in New Rochelle. And anytime we were near there, same thing, like, Oh, can we go, can we go? And, you know, and it was really a special place. And D, one of the things that they did incredibly well from the get go, was we have a one of our commandments of branding is, uh, Jackie is, uh, thou shall have many proprietary, um, things, um, that people connect with.
And so you think about the golden arches again, straight from the beginning, right? The golden arches and Ronald McDonald, and that was a connection for kids and whatever. So they, there's a magic that McDonald's had from the beginning that was really, um, incredible.
Jackie Woodward: And there was a lot of showmanship, you know, like I said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if If those guys had paid somebody 10 bucks to put R Mcdonald on their name on their mailbox
LT: That would be great to know.
Okay, i'm going to go to the next question Um jackie, so who has had or is having the most influence on your career?
Jackie Woodward: Well Paul Shraggy who I just named. Um, it is right at the top of the list I mean paul was the head of marketing You At McDonald's from 1967 to 1997. For any of you chief marketing officers out there, can anyone imagine having that job for 30 years?
DC: No,
Jackie Woodward: never had the title of chief marketing officer, but that's what he was. And so I joined the company in 1990. So I had the benefit of, you know, his last years and he really mentored me. Um, like I said, I'm, I'm still in touch with him. He lives in Scottsdale. I just spoke with him about three months ago.
And, um, And so, uh, he had a saying, and I'm a big quotes person. Uh, he had a big saying around think like a brand and act like a retailer. And I still apply that in my work every day. Think like a brand act like a retailer. Um, two others come to mind. The second is sort of the McDonald's triumvirate of Larry Light, Charlie Bell, and Dean Barrett.
Um, of course, Larry, Charlie Bell was chief president, chief operating officer. Larry was chief marketing officer, um, during the early 2000s. And, and those two men. Both of them now deceased. Larry just left us a couple of months ago. Charlie was the wild story of dying about 18 months after the launch of I'm Loving It at the ripe age of 45.
Still miss him every day. Those two men had so much courage. And so much gumption to pull that system together in the, in the turnaround that, that it has now been written as, you know, it was an ad campaign disguised as a turnaround. And Dean Barrett was my boss at McDonald's for 15 years. And so through all of those moments, I mean, Dean was a trailblazer.
He was persistent. He always had the next idea. You could not turn this guy off. He taught me so much about business. But also about, um, culture and the importance of persistence and the importance of thinking through every single possible nuance that could happen at an Olympics, for example, um, he, he knew no bounds.
Um, he too is still in my orbit. I just talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He's retired now. Um, and so those gentlemen, you know, did a lot for McDonald's and did a lot for me. Um, my chief marketing officer at Miller Coors, Andy England was probably the best boss I've ever had. And it was because at, by that point in my career, I was really ready to lead.
And he let me, we were just great partners. He gave me. All kinds of openings to do whatever it was that I felt was right within my orbit. And, um, and we just had a really, really great connection, um, culturally as well. I learned a lot from Andy too. Um, but, uh, you know, he really gave me space to lead and, um, it was an amazing opportunity.
I would say who's impacting my, my, uh, my network now is, or my, my career now is my network. And, you know, you mentioned, um, LT, you mentioned Tim Spengler at the, at the top of the broadcast. I mean, Tim's a great example. I wouldn't be here today if Tim hadn't introduced us to each other. And as I've embarked upon my own brand and business over the last year, you know, it's been, um, really, my network has been really wonderful to me.
And I've always thought that the, that networks were important. Um, I'm a very curious person and I place a high, high. Um, degree of of importance on curiosity, because I think that's where answers come from, you know, no, 1 has all the answers. But if you're curious, and you are involved with people, and you are outside looking at ideas and thinking about why do people do things the way they do them?
I, then I think that's where answers come from. And, and so when I was a general mills, I had a, uh, a guy who I'd not worked with before, but we became great friends. We came in together, me on the media side, him on the creative side to help really rejuvenate those brands. And, um, at one point I wanted to introduce him to another agency person who I knew.
And I said, you're really going to love this guy. I mean, he's, he's really, he's, he's got so many interesting ideas. And my friend. Um, Michael said, well, of course, he's interesting, Jackie, you collect interesting people.
Yeah. And so, you know, some people call it, I mean, the official word is a network, but I just like to think I collect interesting people.
And so I never really built a network expecting that it was going to pay me back, but it's paid me back. It's paid me back. Over decades in ideas and sounding boards and just interesting people and curious thoughts and, but now, um, you know, being able to, to reach out to people and network in ways that, um, is generating business for me and results for them, um, as well as just having the opportunity to talk about, like we're talking about today.
What is the world offering to marketers these days and how should we think about it and how should we pass that along to the next generation? Because it's coming up fast. It's coming up fast.
LT: Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Do you have anything to add? Not, not for me. I'm ready to go to the next question.
Yeah. Let's do the next question.
DC: All right, Jackie, given your range of experiences, the successes you have had are voluminous. But this next question has nothing to do with any of those successes, Jackie. What the Brand Nerds want to know is, what was your biggest eff up? And importantly, what did you learn from that single? Like you might have eight. Okay, I don't know how many you got, but give us the one.
Jackie Woodward: Yeah. Um, well now you're going to start to understand that one of my red threads is people. Between my network that I just talked about my, my collection of interesting people,
uh, my passion for women's leadership. Um, and, uh, but, but I would say, and you know, this was a hard question for me because.
I'm an optimist. And so I another one of my favorite favorite quotes comes from Colin Powell. He said optimism is a force multiplier. And so I don't look, you know, some people would say, well, ultimate bid failed. That must have been a big F up. I learned so much. Now, we had to move out to San Francisco for seven months and then move back to Chicago.
So, you know, thankfully, my husband's still married to me, uh, some people could say, you know, well, when, whenever that, that might be the biggest one or, or the risk of, you know, the launch. I'm loving it or something, but I would say. The, the biggest one is in people because I'm such an optimist, I think the best of everyone and people like Shaquille O'Neal deserve that kind of respect, but not everyone does, unfortunately.
LT: Right.
Jackie Woodward: And so, you know, I can tell you one, one of the, I have bounced around a lot. I get bored easily. Some people like to say, um, at one of my stops. You know, I was about 60 days in and the recruiter, I'd been recruited to this role and the recruiter called me and said, you know, how's it going? And you know, how's the work and how's the team and how's your boss and blah, blah, blah.
And I said, well, you know, I think, I think it's all coming along the way I wanted it to the way I planned it to, you know, it's not a lot of surprises. I will say there are a couple of people on the team. I have some questions about, and, um, But you know, I'm a good manager. I've been able to bring people along before.
I'm going to fix them. And he said, get rid of them.
What do you mean? And he said, you, you, you can't afford it. You can't afford in the situation that you're in. You can't afford the time to fix them.
Well, I thought I could fix them. And guess what? I couldn't. And they, frankly, they didn't deserve it.
DC: Yeah.
Jackie Woodward: I waited way too long. And so, um, it, it did a few things. First of all, it took way too much energy on my part. It was very energy draining. I'm, I'm one of those who loves this concept of work that gives you energy, recognizing the work where that drains your energy and, you know, how you, you come, come to some kind of a balance of that so that you keep your energy high.
And, um, it was energy draining for me. Um, The rest of the team knew it and were waiting for me to take action. And so it was a little bit of a hit to my credibility that, um, that I didn't make a hard call and it wasn't that I was afraid to, but I thought I could, but I thought I could do it.
And so ever since then, when I have come into a new situation, I assess the people within 60 days and make decisions.
Fortunately, I haven't had to make a lot of separation decisions. Um, but I've made when I've had to make them, I've made them quickly. So I hope that is a good example for your audience.
LT: I love this example.
DC: That is a fantastic example and and one that deserves a little time to marinate. Larry, any. From you.
LT: Yes, quick one D because I know you're going to posit some great thoughts on this. Um, so Jackie, there's a woman named Ellen Stone has been a guest and Ellen is, um, is been with the NBC cable networks quite a long time, uh, um, uh, running CMO of Bravo and many of those networks. And Ellen told a story so similar to yours.
About somebody that she was managing and heard the difference was that that person was a really excellent contributor, but was toxic to the team, and it, you know, and so Ellen didn't do anything because the person contributed so much until finally her team was. Basically saying, if you don't get rid of her, we're all, we're all out basically.
And, and so this is such a huge one to the Brand Nerds out there when, and, and it's like when you're in, when you're dating, people say, you can't change somebody. They are who they are. It's sort of the same thing. It's, you know, this is a work situation, but it's sort of the same thing. And I love that you shared that because, um, you learn from it and then your, your way of going about doing things going forward, evaluate in 60 days and, you know, you make a decision because you'll know you have that feeling, right?
Jackie Woodward: You'll know you have to trust your instincts.
LT: Yeah.
Jackie Woodward: Well, if you know what you're doing, you will know. And I assume. On this audience knows exactly what they're doing. You, you will know, you will know from day one, you have to trust that and then pull the rip cord. Cause here's the other thing. Then after that is done, you can go to the team and say, all right, you're my team.
LT: Yeah. Hmm. Good.
Jackie Woodward: Get because anytime there's a new leader, you know, whether it's a C suite leader, it's a new leader. I mean, you know, earlier, not when I was a C suite leader, but just into one of my new businesses. I mean, on day three, I had a fairly, um, outspoken direct report say in front of a bunch of people.
So you're our leader. Now, what's your expectations of us? She verbalized what everybody else was wondering, right? And so they, they'd wonder, they do wonder, and they don't know, uh, how are you, how do you think about me? So the, the, the sooner you can rip out the, the toxicity and, Be able to say then, okay, we're done.
Let's move forward. You just watch people's shoulders come down, you know, and now they're going to work and, and now they're going to work for you and they're going to be, you know, much more loyal and be willing to work hard and be willing to be a part of a team because they know, you know, you as a leader have made a decision.
LT: Great stuff.
DC: All right, Jackie, the way you have walked through this answer is, uh, unlike anything we've heard on this podcast, Ellen's piece to which Larry noted was close, but this was more detailed. Yep. So I want, I want to ask you a couple of questions and if you could give me a quick pithy answer, that'd be great.
Until we get to a place where I'm like, okay, now let's open this thing up. The first is you said, when you did not fire them, you did not get rid of them. You said your reputation took a bit of a hit. What specifically happened to your reputation?
Jackie Woodward: Um, people wondered about my leadership.
LT: I mean, you're
Jackie Woodward: supposed to make tough decisions, right?
So people, well, is she gonna be willing to make a tough decision? She may need to make tough decisions that'll defend us, those of us who are on the team. Is she gonna do it the way she's, that she's defending something that clearly doesn't? deserve defending. And the other thing is, um, does it calls into question, does she really know what she's doing?
Can't she see? It's like a snowball. I mean, if you can't see that, right.
This thing too.
DC: Yeah.
Jackie Woodward: It was just doubt. And, um, and, and credibility and why I think the sooner you can make tough decisions, by the way, whether they're people decisions or budget decisions, whatever they are, you make the tough decisions first, and everybody's up and goes, she is in charge, man.
And. I like where this is going. Let's go.
DC: Okay. All right. Uh, no, another, another question here. Um, after, uh, you were told or, or, or you felt that people wondered, can you make the tough decisions? Had you ever been told that before in any other part of your career?
Jackie Woodward: Hmm.
No, nothing coming to mind, but I mean,
DC: that's good.
Jackie Woodward: That's right.
That. It would have been considered a tough decision by a broader swath of an organization. If that's okay.
DC: Okay, good. All right. Okay. I'm going somewhere with this, by the way. So thank you very much for giving me the answers to these questions.
Um, when you left this company, did you leave on your own accord? Or were you asked to leave, if you are so, if you're comfortable saying this, and if you were asked to leave, or you decided, I don't think this is tenable anymore, how much of a role did not getting rid of those people play in that decision? For them, for you, or both?
Jackie Woodward: Wasn't material.
DC: Wasn't material. Okay, great. Great. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. One other thing. You mentioned the word toxicity. Larry mentioned with Ellen, she had the word toxic. In my mind, Jackie and Larry and Brand Nerds, those are the easy ones. When people are obviously toxic, those are the easy ones.
Here are the more difficult ones. I'm running my organization like carnivores. And you are a vegan. Vegans aren't bad. Hat, eat all of your vegetables. Do it. Eat no meat. But over here, we're eating meat. And if you don't want to eat meat, you're not even toxic as much as I love you. You gots to go. You got to go somewhere.
You have to go over where the grass is because over here we got cows. So Brand Nerds, here's what I've learned in my career. Uh, cause I had the same thing, Jackie. I had a three 60 and my boss came to me and said, Your team loves you, you're doing a great job on fire, but they wonder if you care more about being liked than making the hard decision.
And I had never been told that before in my life, Jackie. From that moment, I was like, well, hell, I'm, I'm from Detroit. I know how to make some hard decisions. I have not had a problem since then. But what I've learned is situations like that, uh, with people that need to. Make a move and you need to make a decision.
They're not like wine. They don't get better with time. They get worse So i'm really glad that you have brought this up. Okay, larry. Let's hit the next question, brother.
LT: Let's hit the next question. So Jackie regarding technology and marketing. Can you tell us where you think marketers? Should lean in or best leverage tech or you can talk about areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid.
Jackie Woodward: Well you know, I talked about curiosity just a moment ago and Related to that, you know, I think if I were not a marketer I would be a behavioral psychologist because I am intensely interested and curious about what makes consumers tick
DC: Hmm
Jackie Woodward: Makes people tick and I think And I also believe it's it's relate the two are related behavioral psychologists and marketers are related skills because he talked about that a lot.
LT: Totally agree.
Jackie Woodward: So we have to understand how people tick and why they, why they make the decisions they do, they do and where they go to make the decisions that they do and how they do that. So, you know, you talked about ultimate bid back in 2000. I mean, I've always been curious about technology. That's why I made, I chased my .com dream, moved my family out to San Francisco for seven months, because, you know, um, you, we I think we have to be experimenting with technology, whatever that is. So, you know, I was on Facebook early on. I was on Twitter early on. I am using generative AI almost every single day for something or another.
I'm trying out different platforms. Um, and I think we have to keep staying in touch with what consumers are staying in touch with. I have a TikTok account. I'm on TikTok every day. I think it's kind of insane, but my opinion, but I look at it very clinically. Uh, my opinion doesn't matter. What matters is to the customers that we are trying to attract and be relevant to.
And the brands that we are trying to grow have to understand in any form of technology that's out there today. So I say, lean into all of it, cast an eye on it clinically, you know. How should it be used in proper ways? But I think we have to be trying everything. I really do
LT: Love it. D, you have anything to add?
DC: Excellent. Last question, Jackie, what is the single thing you are most proud of? Any area you want to go. What is the single thing that you're most proud of?
Jackie Woodward: I can, I have two?
DC: Two, sure. Two,
Jackie Woodward: One personal, one professional.
DC: Yeah, perfect.
Jackie Woodward: Uh, professionally it's my brands, you know? I mean, I'm just, um, I've helped them. I, I, I treat my brands as my children.
I do have one daughter. She's 27, newly married and in the, uh, hospitality and sports marketing industry. So I, I love her and I'm proud of her, but my brands are my children too.
LT: What's your, what's your daughter's name before we always give shout outs.
Jackie Woodward: Her name is Lane.
LT: Awesome.
Jackie Woodward: Yeah. So, um, so helping these brands nurture them and grow, um, helping drive consumer relevance is just, um, I mean, it's, it's just very rewarding to be able to know that you had a hand and are having a hand in helping a brand or a business grow.
And particularly now, um, because, uh, so far, at least many of my clients have been smaller businesses, founder led businesses. I mean, this is, this is their livelihood, you know, same with franchisees, same with beer distributors. I mean, these brands are their livelihood and to know that you're making a difference to drive consumer relevance and their growth is, is just an, uh, an awesome responsibility.
And I, and something I'm incredibly proud of on the personal side, um, about three and a half years ago, um, I found in a group called, that we call W3. A group of a dozen women, speaking of networks, um, they were women who I had gotten to know across my career, but they didn't know one another. And to a person though, there's, there's 12 of us to a person, um, they had said to me over the years, Jackie, how do I create a network?
You're so good at networking. How do I create a network? And So it was coming out, it was a fall of 2020. So we were coming out of a time when none of us was networking and, you know, really a need for human connection. And, and, um, so in the spring of 2021, um, the 12 of us gathered in Charleston for a weekend of.
Of enrichment. Um, I had some guest speakers. Um, we built personal brands together. We had, we just had fun cooking together. We shopped together. Um, and I made sure each one of them. I chose them very carefully. Um, I made sure that each one of them knew at least one person. So they weren't, you know, jumping in cold and they all knew me, but no one knew everybody except for me. And I paid for it. It was that important to me. And, um, the other thing speaking of my daughter is since my daughter's in the hospitality marketing industry, she put it on for me.
So a chance to see these remarkable women, um, just coming together and Being thoughtful about themselves, thoughtful about the relationships they were creating.
And we've now been together four times. The W3 stands for Woodward Women's Weekend. So wow, creative, I have to say. But this group of women has become so meaningful to one another, to my daughter, and to me, it is a gift. It's truly a gift.
LT: That is so cool on so many levels. It really is. And, and, you know, Brand Nerds, when you think about what that means to Jackie, and I think she's just told us she paid for it, not for any kudos, but to just tell us how important it is, you know, um, that says how important it is to you. And, um, and man, that's wonderful.
I thank you for sharing that.
DC: Thank you.
Jackie Woodward: A group of people and I'm just fortunate to have them all in my lives.
LT: It's awesome. Do you have anything else to share? Oh, go ahead, Jackie.
Jackie Woodward: Personal and professional.
LT: There you go. That was great. Those were two great. D, we ready to move to the next segment? Let's do it.
D, Jackie, what's poppin??
DC: What's poppin
LT: Jackie, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion, and Jackie, I think you got a good one for us. The floor is yours.
Jackie Woodward: Definitely. Um, I have just finished a great book called The Power of Instinct that is, was written by my friend, Leslie Zane, another woman in my network who's, who's had her own company called Triggers, um, for more than 30 years working for some of the best brands across the globe and her, her, um, it's the subtitle is the new rules of persuasion.
In business and life, talking about behavioral psychology, just a few minutes ago, she, she has applied neuroscience to her research efforts. So they're, they're a research and brand firm and they have applied neuroscience to their efforts with incredible success for many, many years. And it really turns marketing on its head, um, challenges every possible category convention around how you should drive memorability.
Persuasion and, um, and getting to purchase intent. She it's, it's all in our brains. She has some really interesting thoughts around the connect domes. I was thinking about it LT when you were talking about McDonald's. I mean, a perfect example of the power of instinct is those golden arches is Ronald McDonald.
Buildings is, is the big Mac and how those create both positive and negative interactions in your mind and how a brand is actually built in people's minds, um, is fascinating. And so, um, and, and it's changing how I'm thinking about some of my clients. So, um, I really encourage you to read it.
LT: You got me intrigued.
We're definitely going to check it out. Um, as you were describing that, I'm struck. We're big fans of Malcolm Gladwell and his book, Blink. Um, which gets to, you know, a lot of times we overthink things, right? And, um, and I think part of where it sounds like where Leslie's going is we have intuitive powers that we too often, um, you know, let our logical side take over when intuition might be driving you to something that, you know, logically doesn't make sense, but intuitively does.
And, uh, so I'm really, uh, interested in checking that out.
Jackie Woodward: People have been talking about System 1 and System 2 thinking, you know, now for a dozen years or so, but she takes it a whole nother step further. And, um, I'm really proud of her and she's just really smart.
LT: Very cool. D, you got anything to add?
DC: I do. What a wonderful subject, The Power of Instinct. Because we are in 2024 and there's 3 billion people in the world and we have a advanced society. We tend to forget that, um, in our brains, that backstem is, is a reptilian part of our brain.
Jackie Woodward: Right.
DC: And this, this reptilian part of our brain does not respond to logic.
It does not respond to, to, uh, math. It responds to emotion and specifically the need to survive. That's what this thing does. And so all humans have it, all humans have it, and it largely drives the decisions that we make about everything, about everything and instinct. Is there that's, that's where instinct is.
Not, not, not in the frontal lobe or cortex it's, it's, it's back here. And so instincts equates to something that's visceral and emotion. And what I love about the book, and I'm going to read this book. Well, I'll listen to it. I have, um, uh, Jackie dyslexia, ADHD, and dysgraphia. So I don't do a lot of reading of books, but I do a lot of listening of books, audio books.
And, uh, what you learn in school is in, in marketing and branding, you know, this is a Jackie and it, and also in the real world is that. Oh, you got to make sure you get those functional benefits out there. You got those product features, those attributes, you got, you got to make certain now. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.
You must have that. When at the end of the day, Brand Nerds, that little reptilian brain back there. It's the, it's the, it's going through all of the facts and figures that you've got and it's going, how do I feel about this thing? How does it make me feel about myself? So this is what I love about, uh, the subject.
And finally, I'll say this, this is about my life in almost every area. The number of times in my life that my instincts have told me to do something. And I rationalized myself into not doing it, where my rational brain was right and my instinctual soul was wrong. The number of times that's happened is zero.
Yeah. Zero times.
LT: So, love the subject. Love it. Yeah, and just to add to that, D, I think you're totally right. The problem I have, I totally agree with what you're saying, I agree. Sometimes your rational brain is so strong. Oh yeah. That it sort, not only does it take over, but you then can't decipher what's Mm-Hmm. you know, what's intuitive, what's intuition versus what is rational. And it gets all muddy. And that's why you gotta go find a, like go on a hike, go find a quiet place. Yeah. And invariably, if you're open and just the answer will come. Yeah. But this is a huge, such a great topic for, uh, for you to introduce Jackie. Great.
Jackie Woodward: Um, like I said, she's amazing. And so enjoy it. I, I think it will turn some things on its head for you.
LT: Sounds like it.
Jackie Woodward: Audience up there.
DC: Can't wait to read it. I'd say just one other thing before we get. To the next section is a couple of months ago. I had surgery on my hand. I broke my broke my hand, unfortunately, and I was introduced to something entirely new to me.
I've never had surgery before other than dental surgery. I've never been in a hospital over, um, overnight until recently. And, um, with this hand surgery. They, they gave, they gave me a shot in my arm and they said it, it was going to help with the pain. Now, what I did not realize was what they were giving me was the equivalent of when we do dental surgery, a numbing, they were numbing my arm, but I didn't realize that's what was going to happen.
So after I'm done with my surgery, I literally cannot feel my arm. I cannot feel my arm. I'm lugging this thing around for, uh, you know, the next day. And it's like swinging all over the place and it's heavy. Like try to move my arm. It's, I just didn't know it. It deadened the sensation. This is what happens when my rational brain tries to take over.
It deadens. My soul, it deadens my emotion. It desensitizes me to what's really going on. It's like a Novocaine for my heart and that scares the shit out of me. Yeah.
Jackie Woodward: And it should.
DC: Yeah.
LT: Oh man, Jackie, I have to tell you, you've been a, you've been a mate. I'm sorry. What were you saying?
Jackie Woodward: I said, I think it's a great analogy.
LT: It is a great analogy. D the great analogy. Thanks. Yeah. Jackie, this has been again. Our best shows we look up and they're basically over. This has been so much fun. You've been amazing. We're at the show close now and that's where we both posit some learnings and we'll have you do that as well. I have a ton.
I'm going to keep it to seven. So, um, the my first one Brand Nerds for you is consciously nurture your network consciously. That's something Jackie's done from the beginning. And you got to consciously do it. Second one, uh, Paul Shraggy, the great CMO at McDonald's for a long time. I think the shout out what he said, if you're in the retail space, think like a brand act like a retailer, really like that one, the number three.
With people who are working for you, when they are ready, like was done with Jackie, give them a chance to lead. And by the way, that means if they F up, you let them F up too and maybe you go over it, but give them a chance to lead. Number four, curiosity is the core to anyone's success. Always ask questions, even the simplest questions, but also find those great questions that really get undercover of things that you, that you're curious about.
Number five, like Jackie, go collect interesting people. Jackie said she hasn't done it on purpose. It just sort of happened. I think if you, if, when you think about it that way, though, you're going to collect interesting people. So number six, You cannot fix people. When you are in a new leadership position, like Jackie, learn, take 60 days, assess the people, and then act.
And the last one, number seven, to be the best brand person like Jackie, you need to treat your brands like your kids. Quick tangent for me, for all the brands that I've worked on, when I go to the grocery store, if I have a minute, I'm always looking and checking out my, my, my kids. Right? Right. Any brand that you've worked on, if you're a brand person, you still have that connection to when you think about it that way, it takes you to another level as a marketer.
Those are my seven.
DC: Mmm. That's good. That's good. I have similar ones. I have similar ones, brother. So, Jackie, I don't know if you've heard any of our podcast, uh, or not. If you have, you may be familiar with, uh, at this stage, um, what I attempt to do. I really try hard to do this is to share with you and the Brand Nerds what's come forward for me about the human in front of me.
It's a bit like a, a canvas is empty when we start the podcast and through your, uh, discussion, brushes come out and start to paint on the canvas. And then after a while for me, there will be this image that I, I get, I don't know how I get it. Jackie. Hi. Yeah.
Jackie Woodward: It's your talent.
DC: Well, thank you. We'll, we'll, we'll, I received that.
And, um, for you, I thought that I had it at different points during this discussion. And then. A new color would come up, a swirl, a flare. And it wasn't until the very end that it was like, ah, this is the picture. This is the picture. So let me share with you where I've arrived about you, Jackie Woodward, and the unique thing that you have for the world.
LT: Hold on, Jackie.
DC: All right. So on the question about your favorite brand, you talked about your seven year old self in Springfield, Massachusetts. You see this McDonald's. You didn't say this. I'm going to add to it. The gleaming McDonald's. You and your, did you say it was your sister?
Jackie Woodward: Yes.
DC: Yeah, you and your sister.
Jackie Woodward: In Missouri.
DC: What's that now?
Jackie Woodward: Springfield, Missouri.
DC: Oh, Springfield. What did I say?
Jackie Woodward: Massachusetts.
DC: Okay. Springfield, Missouri. Sorry. Springfield, uh, Missouri. Thank you for correcting me. You and your sister see this gleaming McDonald's. On the main thoroughfare, but behind it, there's a street of houses, not the main thoroughfare.
And you all see a name, R. McDonald's. And this just fascinates you all, fascinates you all. And not, and then once you worked at McDonald's and you talk about, uh, Paul Shraggy, who, um, was just mentioned by, uh, by Larry and also Larry and Dean. And you went, you said, I need to find out if that was a stunt or not.
Like, did that, did that really happen or not? I find that to be interesting. Interesting that. That house was behind with that name. And we are still today, not certain whether it was a stunt or not. That is interesting to me. The second you meet Shaquille O'Neal as a teenager in a basketball game, working with him in that capacity.
Then you work with him again as an entrepreneur with Krispy Kreme. The fact that you saw him at a, and met him as a young person and worked with him and then met him again and worked with him again as an adult, and that you could see he's the same guy. When we know many celebrities change and you said that and Larry said that as well, that is also interesting. On your biggest F-Up, the fact that your recruiter said to you at the 60 day market, you mentioned a couple of people here, you know, I'm not, I'm not so certain of him. He said, get rid of them. And you didn't. And you later learn from that, that you've got to make these tough decisions early. And the impact that has on a team like, Oh, okay.
She's in charge. We're gonna, we're going to follow her. That is also interesting. And then you, you got to, um, W3, Woodward Women's Weekend, and Jackie, as you talked about your daughter, part of this, um, towards the end of talking about these, uh, did you say 12 women, was it 12 women?
Jackie Woodward: There's 12 of us.
DC: Yeah, 12 of you, um, you started to get choked up.
Yeah. Yeah, you started to get choked up. So the emotion associated with that particular network. was again interesting. And then finally, one of the people you worked with said to you when you said, you should meet this person. And then, and he said, uh, yeah, of course I'll meet them. Jackie, you collect Interesting people.
Every one of these examples, the red thread using your word, to me, Jackie, is the word interesting.
Jackie Woodward: Oh, okay.
DC: That is the word. Yeah, exactly. So I'm going to take you to a campaign that I believe, and I know Larry agrees with this, was one of the best ever and should not have been abandoned. But it was Dos Equis.
Jackie Woodward: Oh yeah. Right.
DC: And the tagline is The most interesting man in the world. Yep. Now they've walked away from that. That was a mistake. Okay. That that was a was and is a mistake. All right. Yep. But in that, I think is who and what you are, Jackie and I believe you are the most interesting woman in the marketing world.
Jackie Woodward: Okay.
DC: I think that's you.
Jackie Woodward: Yes. I'll to use your words, DC I'll receive that .
DC: Please do. Please do.
Jackie Woodward: Thank you.
LT: Yeah. It's met with the, uh. The greatest accolades there, Jackie.
Jackie Woodward: Well, appreciate that. Like I said, it's really all about so many people. Having an imprint on my heart, on my head, in my back reptilian brain,
DC: yes, yes,
Jackie Woodward: those places, right?
DC: That's right.
LT: Hey Jackie, before, before we sign off, is there anything you would like to share with the Brand Nerds about, uh, about this wonderful conversation we've had?
Jackie Woodward: Yeah, there's one more thing that's really more career driven, I guess, I would say, than some of the conversation that we've had thus far.
When you were talking earlier, Larry, about, you know, the things that I've done with my career, the red thread there is to raise your hand and do the jobs nobody else wants to do.
LT: Good one. That's a great one.
Jackie Woodward: When you're in a CPG or pure brand organization, like some of the ones I've been in, you know, you come in as an associate brand manager with your newly minted MBA, and you're going to be to two associate managers, and then you're going to get promoted to a brand manager, you're going to do three brand manager roles.
And then you're, you know, it's still a ladder as much as people would like to talk about the lattice and that kind of stuff. It's still a ladder.
LT: Yep.
Jackie Woodward: And at McDonald's, you know, same thing. You, you got it, even though it's not a typical brand organization, you're working on innovations or create, you know, whatever, nobody, believe it or not, nobody wanted to do the sports stuff.
LT: Wow.
Jackie Woodward: It was, it didn't, it didn't, where, where was it taking my career? You know, Where it's taking your career is into lots of interesting places, because you're doing things that, um, where, where usually there's a blank sheet of paper, you know, used to talk in one of the companies I was in, we wanted brand managers to take on, uh, brands that were in trouble and, uh, we had to figure out how to compensate and incentivize them differently because Nobody wants to work on a brand that's in trouble to work on the big brands, this, the super successful brands so that I can just keep on being successful.
No, the power of a turnaround and I'm kind of a turnaround artist. The power of a turnaround is it feels even better. Is it hard? Is it risky? You bet it is, but sign up for it. Because it's interesting. You meet much more interesting people. You will challenge yourself like you've never been challenged.
You'll be frustrated beyond belief. And then it happens. And it's amazing. So, raise your hand for the jobs that nobody else wants.
LT: That's a great capper, Jackie.
DC: Fantastic.
LT: Great capper. Brand Nerds, heed, heed Jackie's advice. Eat it. And that's going to go to our show close. Thanks for listening to Brands Beats and Bytes.
The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, and Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, and Jade Tate and Tom DiOro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share it. For those on Apple podcasts, if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.