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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
[00:00:00] Matt: Hey John, welcome to the program.
[00:00:02] Jon: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
[00:00:03] Matt: Marketing automation at StellarWP. John Clark joins us today. You have a YouTube channel, John Automates, and I forget how I saw you. It was a cross conversation on Twitter or x. com these days, and you were talking about, I saw somebody like talking about like video games, YouTube, WordPress, and I was like, I got to talk to John, got to have him on the show to talk about that stuff.
[00:00:29] Matt: So, John, thanks for hanging out with us today.
[00:00:31] Jon: Appreciate it. Yeah, it does. Big, big nerd. I've always been this way since I was a child. I guess it's kind of, it's way cooler, way more accepted these days. So why not let it out?
[00:00:42] Matt: Yeah. let's let's let's start with your role at Stellar WP. Marketing automation, you represent all of the brands that fall under stellar WP. What's the day to day look like?
[00:00:55] Jon: Day to day is So there's a mixture of things. the main thing would be email automation in terms of what's going out, what's coming in, and how those processes flow between each other. There are certain times when you have something and it works really, really well, and then maybe the next month or two months down the line, you need to kind of switch up that process, change up the goals, switch up what is happening or why it's happening.
[00:01:19] Jon: So that ends up. Being a thing. And then there's the data aspect behind that. It's like, all right, well, how well did this do? And that's where it starts to get in. It becomes a little bit of a mix, maybe email automation, marketing automation mixed with data analytics a little bit. And so I kind of find myself in between those kind of having both of those hats,
[00:01:38] Matt: And you, I imagine you probably like interface, each product probably has their own marketing person. You're interfacing with that marketing person from that product. owner, let's call them. and I say that because that's what we do at gravity forms. And, and then you probably just like sort of. Hey, what's your marketing initiative?
[00:01:55] Matt: holiday sales are coming up pretty soon. So let's like ramp up for that. And these are the email campaigns, that we're putting together. Do you like get into the nitty gritty and write the copy for all the products as well, or does the owner send that to you?
[00:02:07] Jon: That's the thing, so, copy, I don't do anything with copy, I am not a copy, it might sound kind of like a weird thing considering how creative I am hobby wise, but in terms of like work wise, no, I deal with, and prefer, preferably like doing the behind the scenes stuff. Does something work? Is this data correct?
[00:02:28] Jon: I, I'm really into that kind of thing, personally. I, I don't know how that happened, but I, I like doing that.
[00:02:35] Matt: I mean, it's a almost like a coding in a way, right? I'm not a developer. but I feel really powerful when I use like a no code tool or a Zappy or, and I like put things together and I see this outcome. I start with whatever, like the pieces of the puzzle all over the table, and then I move things around and then there's this outcome that's automated.
[00:02:56] Matt: And I feel like that's the same way, especially with automation. Like quite literally [00:03:00] you're building like these paths and. You know, when you can see conversion rates increase, decrease, you can analyze it and you can pull these parts in. I mean, that's my opinion, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm assuming it's maybe a shared thing.
[00:03:14] Jon: you're, you're right on target. I, I, I have been in positions before where I was doing emails, writing the copy, coming up with the subject lines and things like that. I just don't really prefer it. And quite frankly, there are, there's a whole team of people at Stellar who are way better than I at doing that.
[00:03:34] Jon: I, my job is to help support them. They can call me if they need me to send something out or if they need data for certain, certain things or to put something together. But yeah, the copy game is not me.
[00:03:45] Matt: yeah. generally speaking, without giving away any of the secret sauce or the data at Stellar, Is there a certain trend you see that is working these days and I'm saying that in a long sort of thought process there to give you to give you a chance to think about this, but I feel that man.
[00:04:07] Matt: Email. still today you have one side of the coin where you have product, you know, people in WordPress products, you know, small little plugin developers, they're, you know, trying to make a, a go at, at monetizing their, their plugin or their theme. And they're, they're not even building an email list, right?
[00:04:22] Matt: So there's still like opportunity on that side. And then there's the other side of the coin where you're like, Damn, I get a lot of emails, right? There's so many people emailing me. and is there like a balance one should think about that they should strike when they're starting to market their, their plugin for the first time via email or
[00:04:40] Jon: Yeah, emails, let's just get it out of the way. Emails are annoying. If we really want to get into the nitty gritty. I mean, how many people. How many people, if you were to go onto their phone right now, and you were to look at their Gmail or their Yahoo or their Apple mail or whatever, and you'd see the red bubble of like how many emails they haven't read.
[00:04:59] Jon: Like emails are, people don't really to go through them if they don't really have to. And we get so many. And so I think the big thing about trying to market a product or trying to get people to give you the level of engagement that you need is to add something to it to not force them, but to drive the interest.
[00:05:20] Jon: Gamification probably is one of the biggest, best ways, right? that's one of the things where it's like, all right, if you can put gamification in the email, it's going to almost Almost instantly give you if they want to open it and and, you know, actually interact with it It's it'll give you that conversion of some sort in terms of reading and click through rate Dynamic content as well not just a be testing or split testing But maybe variable path testing does this work and sending it to specific people?
[00:05:50] Jon: Utilizing demographic and firmographic information to like really start to segment properly and split things up. It, it, a lot of that stuff does a lot better [00:06:00] because Humans as a whole are, we're not a monolith. Your, your customer in Seattle, Washington is not going to be the same as your customer in Miami, which is not going to be the same as your customer in London.
[00:06:11] Jon: You know? So it's, if you can find the little minute things that help switch it up, I think that helps,
[00:06:17] Matt: One of the thing, and I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to, to email. I always think I'm going to set up email automation. I'm gonna set this up for, for this podcast that we're recording on right now. I sell a membership, I sell access, all this stuff. And then I start to drown myself in fear that I can't create this type of content that is I want people to want to open the email.
[00:06:41] Matt: But I know I'm not going to get everyone. It's like the podcast. Like I want everyone to listen, but I know every, not everyone is going to listen busy, different interests. you know, there's a competing podcast that comes out at the time. I publish a podcast that they'd rather listen to. So I, I get it.
[00:06:56] Matt: you know, and I start to get a little paralyzed that I can't put together an email sequence that is going to be as attractive as the next person. So then I don't do it. Right. And then I don't do it. I don't have a direct question here. It's a bit of a soapbox moment, but do you have a process of thinking of okay, new product, new thing.
[00:07:15] Matt: Here's the three emails you should craft, this one, two, three step process. Is there anything like that, that, that goes around in your head for somebody getting started with email automation or attracting somebody to want to open up every email?
[00:07:30] Jon: What gets in my head is, so the answer to that is yes and no. no, because our content people are a lot better than I, and they. That's what they tend to try and think about. And I can list off a variety of different people at stellar who do a great job with that. Yes, though, because where my focus starts to draw in is.
[00:07:53] Jon: Should we send this at this time, or should we send it at that time, this day or that day? if I, should I send it to the person in Spain who's just getting off work, because they're more likely to kind of sit down and open, or is that a really bad time for them? Is 11 o'clock in the morning good because people are kind of at work, kind of going through things, or is that really bad?
[00:08:16] Jon: So it's I think about those types of things a lot more, in terms of steps.
[00:08:21] Matt: As we're recording right now, Apple is doing their iPhone event. Tuesday one o'clock has been like the staple for Apple forever. you know, is, is that, is do you have these times that, that you think are the best for us based markets Tuesday at one o'clock? Is that just the de facto?
[00:08:39] Jon: I... So yeah, there's, there's going to be so much, when it comes to best sending times. I, all right. So if you get the main thing out of the way. The main thing is don't send on Fridays. You'll hear 90 percent of people say don't send on Fridays unless you already have that kind of audience that is open, but you need to have [00:09:00] proof, you know, you like a fantasy player that you don't want to put in your starting lineup.
[00:09:03] Jon: You need to have proof that it's actually happening first before you like take the plunge. I am a big proponent of midday. Monday through Thursday type emails. I think that we live in a society, especially today, especially after the pandemic and things like that, that wants to detach away from emails and work and that kind of thing.
[00:09:28] Jon: And emails, even your personal email can seem like work, whereas I think more people are more inclined to check their emails, their personal emails. During specific times that might be during work or like right before or when they're on a break from work, like during that time. So assuming the disconnect is a real thing, and I believe it is anywhere.
[00:09:49] Jon: You're you're nine tens, you're 1. PMs, your 2 PMs, 3 PMs. I really don't like to go any later than that, because I think at that point, you're starting to eat into people's. Afternoon time, their commute, if they have a family, things like that. But yeah, that middle of the day period, I've always thought that was a really good time.
[00:10:06] Matt: All right. One last question on the automation. When is it too many emails or is that not a thing?
[00:10:12] Jon: it depends. It's too many emails if you are sending too many in a very short period of time. It may, you can have 8 emails and if they're all sent in 8 weeks, that is too many emails. Depending on the situation. You could also have 8 emails and if it's sent over the course of 6 months, Yeah, that's that could be a much better situation.
[00:10:35] Jon: for product launches. Do you want to over Extend it? do you want to really showcase like this is what we have And does that information need to be spread out over eight or can it be condensed and put into two or three, you know? So it's it's a mixture. It's going to depend on the content. It's going to depend on the product And it's going to depend on your stats if you have sent emails before and what that looks like.
[00:10:57] Matt: All right, let's get into talking about content creation. You have the, your YouTube channel, John automates. Although when I zoom out and I look at just the thumbnails, the gallery of videos, I see a lot of like movie talk, and analysis. Explain to me, John automates the channel and, and how you've got to this point.
[00:11:16] Jon: yeah. YouTube was a weird thing. my original YouTube plan, my original YouTube plan, and, the person who gave me John Automates was Michelle for that. She's the one who actually created the name, and I just went with it. But my original plan was to create tutorials for... Like WordPress for email for things like that and I actually set out to do that and One time I was doing it and a friend of mine said, oh, hey Did you hear about this movie and it was at the time the Mario Super Mario Brothers movie and I put out a thing Just yeah, I just want to talk about the marketing of it just for fun And it got some good views, not anything crazy or anything like that.
[00:11:56] Jon: like maybe 2000, 3000, but it was just kind of like, Oh, this is [00:12:00] fun. And so I just did some more and it kept gradually getting more and more and more. I ended up kind of meeting some different hosts and things like that and wanted to create kind of a very similar to OTT type of show. into a podcast ish type thing and, and started getting into that and doing shorts and talking about movie trailers and movie news and movie marketing, mainly because I have experienced, some of my internships early on dealt with film marketing, commercial marketing.
[00:12:29] Jon: And so it was some place that I actually had some experience in talking about, and I just thought it was interesting and you don't normally see that. Usually for movies it's reviews or my thoughts or something like that. Whereas I like to talk more about the. our behavior towards why things are happening, our behavior towards studios, the marketing reasons that happen, that kind of thing.
[00:12:49] Jon: And it's, it's been fun.
[00:12:51] Matt: Do you have a particular goal for the channel? And, And, and like, how much do you work towards that? And I'll, I'll preface it with, there are people who just like constantly analyze, probably just like you do at your day job, like constantly analyze like the traffic, you know, the, the, the, retention rate of a viewer, the thumbnail, the titles, and that becomes 80 percent of their YouTube life.
[00:13:15] Matt: It's to try to optimize for that. How do you approach your YouTube life and what the goal is?
[00:13:20] Jon: I just want things to be entertaining, in the space that I'm in. It's, there's a lot of things that happen in the space that I'm in on YouTube where. You get people who are either, we just really like the movie and there's no faults, we really hate the movie and everything's wrong with it, or you get, situations where people will have a podcast or a show, but they don't appear on screen.
[00:13:45] Jon: It's just like a black screen, or it's, You know, hey, let's talk about this and rag on it or and it's it's things like that. Whereas my thing is again We're we're not a just like before we're not a monolith like people enjoy certain things and they don't like certain things people Some things are not for me.
[00:14:01] Jon: Some things are and I like to just try and create an environment where I think everybody can have some fun in terms of talking about stuff that they like without fearing that they're going to be attacked for it or anything along those lines. So my first inclination of approaching YouTube channel, more than stats, more than analytics or anything else is is this entertaining?
[00:14:22] Jon: Is, would somebody want to watch it? That's the main thing.
[00:14:25] Matt: Yeah, it's for those that don't create YouTube videos and live that life They're the scariest the hardest thing about About YouTube that might not be the right word the most challenging thing the most soul crushing thing About YouTube is when you get caught up In the algorithm, the stats, when I upload and I publish my video is a one out of 10, is it a 10 out of 10?
[00:14:54] Matt: And that's the rating that for those that don't know, it's like the rating that YouTube gives you for your video based on [00:15:00] your, your video competing against your last 30 days of videos uploaded or something like that, but it puts you into It is competitive mode against the algorithm. It's the only social media platform that I know that really forces you into just feeding the machine.
[00:15:16] Matt: and it's super challenging. have you ever got caught up in that and be like, no, I just, I want to start with the fun, creative stuff first.
[00:15:23] Jon: I did early. I've, I've been lucky enough to have some videos and some shorts go over 50, 000 over 100, 000. It's not all of them, but I've been lucky enough to have that happen. And when that happens, the feeling you get is like a level. It's elation, I would say. And if, and if people don't get that feeling, then either they're lying or they've been a big YouTuber forever.
[00:15:48] Jon: And so that doesn't matter. But I, because that happened and seeing the, Oh, the, the, the one out of 10 and your watch time is however long, maybe it's closer to however long the video is. I started to like really get into the algorithm, like, all right, does this work? Does that work? man, this thumbnail, I got to really make sure I have a brand presence and stuff like that.
[00:16:09] Jon: And then as time went on, I started to care less. I think as, definitely when I got monetized, which was the 4, 000 watch hours and the 1, 000 subs, I, I began to like, not care as much anymore. And I started looking at other channels that were huge. But they had no community, and it wasn't fun, or it seemed dry, and maybe they had a video that really helped them take off, but they couldn't continue it, and I would rather be the opposite, I'd rather have the smaller audience, if they grow, it grows, if it doesn't, it doesn't, but I'd rather have the smaller audience that interacts with each other, that has fun, that I can also have fun with, I, you're allowed to, if you wanna come at my channel and say something, that I said something wrong, that's fine, like I don't, have any issues.
[00:16:58] Jon: I want to have the discussion. So I started to care less over time. And then my primary care just became, can it be entertaining? Can it be open?
[00:17:09] Matt: I, you know, I've, I've talked about this so many times on this podcast before, but when I started my YouTube channel, I. Same thing. Start out YouTube tutorials, saw the opportunity, had been doing a YouTube, had been doing a WordPress podcast for, I don't know, at that point, six years or so, and, it's got super burned out, right?
[00:17:25] Matt: It was just. Pumping out tutorial after tutorial and, and then not taking my own advice that like, Hey, this content thing takes time for, for it to build up, got burned out, quit, literally didn't log into the YouTube account for a year. Like I was just like, I can't even, I can't even do it anymore. Don't even want to look at the stats because I was so depressed from it.
[00:17:48] Matt: And then like monetized or whatever. Google does sends you the first 50 or whatever it was. And. I was like, well, I'm going to log back in. And at that time, like the channel had grown [00:18:00] to 2000 users without, or 2000 subscribers without me uploading content for a year. And I was like, you fool, right?
[00:18:06] Matt: Like you have, you know, you did exactly what, you know, you knew you shouldn't do, which was like, it takes time. SEO finally kicks in long tail content. People begin to, you know, watch and amplify it. you know, and then, you know, went back into it, et cetera, et cetera. Now, whatever it's that. Like just shy of 15, 000 subscribers, but even still not pumping out as much video stuff because it's a lot of work.
[00:18:29] Jon: It is.
[00:18:30] Matt: It's just a ton of work. What's your thought on, so I'm just looking at your, your YouTube channel now sorting by most popular. Your most popular is 235, 000 views a video you uploaded eight months ago. Transformers. Here we go again. It's just a minute and 34 seconds.
[00:18:45] Jon: Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't even get me started on that one. That is.
[00:18:49] Matt: what's your thoughts?
[00:18:50] Matt: Because, you know, I know you put in days making a video and then it does nothing. And then you just come up with this idea for this video and it blows up and you're like, what
[00:18:59] Jon: Oh yeah. That was not a, my, my best videos and my best shorts are the ones I put the least amount of work into. Now I can't explain it. I don't understand it. I don't, I don't know if the YouTube algorithm is in my house, literally looking at me. I don't know why that is. I did a short on Gran Because I love the game as a kid.
[00:19:23] Jon: It might be my, yeah, it might be my most, and I, and I did it probably maybe a month before the movie came out. And I was just talking about, Hey, I remember that this is a true story. And this is the thing about this movie. It's, it's based on a true story because I remember trying out for GT academy. So it was like, just that it was just an experience thing, quick to the point.
[00:19:45] Jon: And that one still continues to get numbers just because, and it's people talking about how they liked the movie and all of that, but I didn't really put as much work in as I have into other shorts, into other videos. And then your other videos might get a couple hundred, a couple, maybe a couple thousand, you know?
[00:20:02] Jon: And that's the thing you have to learn to just kind of let it be. Some of my stuff over time gets better and more people start watching. I've gotten comments on videos that I put out maybe a couple months ago. I've only been doing this for a year. But it just, you just gotta let it go. You let it go. I had a friend who kind of started a little bit before me and she ended up getting to 50, 000 subs.
[00:20:26] Jon: Like within the span of two months and a lot of people would probably be like, man, this, this stinks. Like I, I was put in the same amount of work. I didn't get, you gotta let it go. And you can't treat it like that. It's, it's different.
[00:20:39] Matt: , just a love hate relationship for YouTube because It's a platform that still has, a lot of creator opportunity.
[00:20:50] Jon: Yeah.
[00:20:50] Matt: long form. But here's the thing, lately, and maybe you've seen this stuff too, one of my favorite creators...
[00:20:56] Matt: always talks about analyzing, you know, the, his youtube [00:21:00] channel and he's very transparent about it. His name's Roberto Blake does a ton of
[00:21:03] Jon: Yeah. Yeah. I've seen this stuff.
[00:21:04] Matt: yeah, there's a ton of stuff out there. I'm super grateful for all the content that he puts out, but I'm starting to see like now. There's this rogue, I think it's called rogue traffic or something like that.
[00:21:15] Matt: I don't know. Random traffic is some, some thing that's impacting YouTube. add impressions and like the monetization that's hitting YouTube. Right. So it's Oh God, we, we bust our backs to put out this content and, you know, YouTube does this, or now I'm seeing a whole bunch of people saying I've deleted all the shorts off of my channel because it's impacting my long form content.
[00:21:39] Matt: And now you're just like, well, what do you want me to do? YouTube? You give me these four things in my dashboard. You have regular videos, you have shorts, you have posts. And, there's another thing that you can create too. I,
[00:21:52] Jon: have the live channel if you
[00:21:53] Matt: the live channel, right? The live channel. Yeah. The live stuff. So it's just What do you want me to do? Like you want us to feed all this content, but then you, penalize us on, the algorithm. And then you don't tell us what the algorithm, like what we should be creating
[00:22:06] Jon: That's the thing.
[00:22:07] Matt: Right. Oh, podcast. That's what it is. So I come from obviously the podcast world. I used to work for a podcast hosting company, so we would have to analyze this stuff.
[00:22:16] Matt: Pretty deeply. And customer, as soon as YouTube started trickling out, like the podcast section of their YouTube channel, I'm like, man, if you start uploading podcasts there, It's just gonna destroy the stats for the, if you're doing 8 minute videos, average 8 to 10 minute videos, but your podcast is an hour long, it's probably gonna destroy your algorithm.
[00:22:37] Matt: and, and people aren't gonna, tune in. And that's not fair. That YouTube, bakes in these features, but then penalizes you at the same time. It's very aggravating.
[00:22:47] Jon: No, I, I agree. That's, that's been a big thing. I, my podcast, I stopped calling it a podcast. I put it underneath. I call it more of a show. Cause I do try to make it into a show, especially with the new format. I I've recently just changed my format into something a little bit different, just to make it a little bit more engaging, make it a little bit more segment based.
[00:23:09] Jon: And, that has made the podcast Quite longer than what it used to be. My vodcast used to be more so. Maybe 20 to 30 minutes or so. Now they're like 45 minutes to an hour. but they are segment based and I put the chapters in so you can go through and everything like that. But if you have that, and then I am a huge shorts creator.
[00:23:29] Jon: Like I have a lot of different shorts is a lot of them that have taken off. It's I'm not so sure my shorts audience is the same as my long, I know there are people who go back and forth, but for the most part, I feel like those are two separate audiences, and I've had people say, Oh, you should focus on just one, but both of them have done, both of them are fun enough to me and I like doing them and they, and I don't want to just stop one just to favor another like that.
[00:23:53] Jon: That isn't the biggest deal to me, but it is weird when It feels like one is being favored over [00:24:00] the other.
[00:24:00] Matt: Yeah. Have you been leveraging any AI tools in your production?
[00:24:07] Jon: No, I kinda, I mean, I used TubeBuddy a little bit, like the free version of that, that doesn't really do as much. I think the biggest thing is it might help with tagging, but tagging doesn't. necessarily help that much. But I I'm pretty basic with my tools. I I had this kind of thought process of buy once cry once.
[00:24:25] Jon: So when I first got started, I was just using a webcam and I think I was using my iPhone as like the microphone and things like that. And then eventually I upgraded to a SM 58. Sure. And And then you can see in my videos, there are some comments about people who are like, yeah, your quality went crazy in the span of a year because I then purchased the Sony a 6100 and I, I got this SM7B shore microphone and.
[00:24:54] Jon: I just wanted to, again, the focus on entertainment was my biggest thing. So I wanted to make sure that the sound was good. I wanted to make sure that the, the actual visuals were good. That scenes that I collect that were within the copyright realm, that I don't have to deal with that, like that those are good and everything kind of comes together.
[00:25:12] Jon: So I, it's a lot of editing and it's a lot of. learning about what to do with like how you structure things. But I, I like that. I, I appreciate that Pat.
[00:25:24] Matt: The content that you create is in a big world, right? There's a lot of competition. There's a lot of people creating that kind of content. you know, whereas if you looked at something like, Hey, I'm going to create WordPress tutorials. Yeah. You could start to expand that into, which a lot of people do.
[00:25:39] Matt: Like you could start expanding it into the, the greater world of whatever, creating an online business and covering other softwares. And, but then you begin to, I don't know, get into that next. Level. And then you're not really that WordPress person anymore. Do you, have you thought, I know you keep saying, you're creating this content entertainment and creative is your first to sort of like outlets, but have you started to think how I expand this channel?
[00:26:06] Matt: Is it just like collabing with other people? you know, you know, going on other podcasts, have you begin to thought, begin to think about how to expand your, your audience?
[00:26:17] Jon: I think, expansion has kind of been the name of the game for me for maybe the last four or five months or so. when, so I, I have people who are, who see my channel, they'll see two of the same co hosts almost all the time. And we have our own kind of little niche group. I think the nice thing about our channel is our channels are that we go on each other's channels.
[00:26:39] Jon: Like I'm going to go on. one of my co hosts goes by nerdy film girl. I'm going to go on her stream like today, right? And it's a level of, this is a group that is good. We all have our own experiences. one is a screenwriter. I, I've been in film marketing. The other is, is a theater major. So it's like those types of things that helps.
[00:26:57] Jon: and I think that's good. I think it's good to be able to [00:27:00] have quote unquote YouTube friends, if you will, because these are, these are good people. And I, it doesn't mean I wouldn't go on anybody else's stuff. Like I would, it's just one of those, the audience that we all have now are so used to seeing us two or us three, depending on the situation that they kind of group us all in together.
[00:27:22] Jon: So a lot of us, we kind of share subscribers. And it's also about chemistry. I wouldn't want to necessarily have in this space. You you'll, it's not uncommon to see. What looks like a conference call sometimes where
[00:27:36] Matt: Yeah.
[00:27:36] Jon: it would be like eight people on talking about something. And, and it's just, I'd rather have the two or the three, like a nice little group, this kind of talking about something, because I do like to interact with the audience, especially I don't do a live stream, but both of my co hosts do.
[00:27:52] Jon: And we, it's just the interaction with the audience. yeah, I just think that's better. I think that's better. So, I also, you have to be, you have to be mindful as well, because I think in this space, one of the things that hurts a little bit is the fact that you have a lot of people who have brought politics into the name of the game when it comes to, movies and entertainment, and I'm okay with doing that and talking about it, especially when it's evident, but I'm not okay to use that To basically discount somebody else, or to discount a group of people, I don't like to do that, and there's a lot of channels who I get compared to who do do that, and I, I just wouldn't want to collaborate with them because I feel like I have an audience that people feel much safer being in, and no one's going to be attacked for their viewpoints or anything like that.
[00:28:47] Jon: I, I, I'd rather have that. That kind of thing.
[00:28:50] Matt: it's also a massive, I hate to use the word opportunity, but it's also like that factor of whether like politics rage politics is, is this is what serves that algorithm. And I blame the algorithm. Like I blame the platforms for pushing that, like resurfacing that content, and then what happens is the views go up, the ad dollars go up and it's all automatic.
[00:29:15] Matt: Right. So people are like, well, I'm going to just continue to make this content. Right. And it doesn't even have to be like far into the spectrum of, of politics of like rage politics. But like you said, there are channels that will just bash anything, bash a movie. And people just Hey, let's just, I think that movie was terrible too.
[00:29:33] Matt: So I'm going to click it, watch it. I'm going to feel satisfied with my, with those opinions. And then that just like this thing is just constantly feeds the machine and it's aggravating.
[00:29:42] Jon: Yeah, and it's easy. That's the thing. It's easy to, and so, consensus, it's, I think consensus might be the easiest psychological trait there is. Right? This person likes what I like, and so we are on the same page. Whereas, me and my co hosts, we don't [00:30:00] agree on everything. We're not necessarily a debate show or anything like that, but there are times when one likes something and the other two don't, or two like something and the other one doesn't.
[00:30:08] Jon: And now it's a conversation of why, because again, if we represent a larger group, then yeah, I might have my reasons and you might have yours, and that's okay, we're not suddenly not gonna talk to each other,let's be real, let's be adults, let's be, let's have real life, you know, whereas the whole like, I've seen, I've seen, and I, I won't name any of the channels, but I've seen on other channels where somebody does like something, but that, that channel's more of a rage channel, and so they either say it, and suddenly they get attacked by the people on that channel, or the people in the stream,in the chat.
[00:30:44] Jon: Or they're afraid to say anything. And I, are you being authentic at that point? I don't think that's as fun.
[00:30:50] Matt: right. Yeah, a hundred percent. shifting gears a little bit creatively, I get jealous of like when I, you know, started the, my YouTube channel and you know what I'm, I'm just doing screencasts, you know, yeah, we'll do a monologue. That's 4k resolution. It's just me talking, right? but then I, I watch it.
[00:31:09] Matt: You know, a lot of other channels that inspire me like photography channels, gear review channels, right? They have the opportunity to make like really sick looking videos with lighting. They have a piece of hardware. It's cool. They can do slow mo. They can do all these things. And it's I can record my screen,
[00:31:28] Jon: Right.
[00:31:29] Matt: right?
[00:31:30] Matt: And I remember starting my channel off early days, like learning YouTube, like learning how to use a camera. And I would do like B roll of my laptop, like sitting on a, on a desk. And it's you see like WooCommerce getting installed and people are like, just show me the damn software. And I'm like, come on, I'm trying to, I'm trying to have fun with this.
[00:31:49] Matt: And people are just like, show me how to do this thing. And I'm like, oh. God, like, all of that is to say, you have an advantage, I'd say that you have a step up advantage because you can show clips from movies and movies look awesome or whatever. but do you ever have, that creative itch to, go beyond that and, and, create film?
[00:32:07] Jon: So, in college, I, I studied marketing, but my first major. Which then became a minor and then the, the program ended up becoming defunct was cinema art. So I was big on I wanted to be a director. that was literally my thing. A director, an editor who like, was behind the camera creating crafting.
[00:32:25] Jon: and I think that YouTube has kind of allowed that to be, to come full circle a little bit. So I am looking at what a second channel that focuses more on the creative pursuits. of creating not necessarily documentary ish style films, but like short things that kind of, I have, I have a whole thing for it.
[00:32:46] Jon: But yeah, I am looking at doing that and what that looks like. I'm certainly not perfect at it, but I want to learn the more. Cinematography type aspects of creating that and what that looks like, I think from a narration point, I'd be good. But otherwise, you know, there's always [00:33:00] something to learn.
[00:33:00] Jon: And so that's where I find myself gravitating towards where I would have both of them. And this one channels for the film and the entertainment and the co host and the show, but this other channel, which is it would be a slower paced. But it would be more of like the creative outlet so I can fulfill both of those.
[00:33:18] Matt: John Clark, Marketing Automation at Stellar WP. John Automates is the YouTube channel. Those will all be linked up in the, in the show notes, John. I could keep talking forever. We didn't even get to video games. You, you have a, you have a game that you're playing these days.
[00:33:33] Jon: I am on the armored core six train right now. That is, that's where I'm at. I am a huge mech fan of all kinds from I'm a Gundam guy. I've loved Zoids. I like Pacific rims the movie. I just love mechs. And so, Armored core, which I've always been a fan of, and it took forever to get this one out, but now it is.
[00:33:52] Jon: I, I've, that's been my mainstay,
[00:33:54] Matt: A FromSoft title that probably won't get recognized as much as the rest of their series of games. But they didn't create, they didn't develop it. It's not fully developed by FromSoft, is it?
[00:34:05] Jon: I believe it might be, even if it isn't like from software, they were there before the el ring, you know, before. And, and it just, over time just the, the Eldon rings and the Dark Souls and, and all of that just became so popular, just spawned its own thing. And I think next. Their mech side of what they were doing just kind of got forgotten.
[00:34:26] Jon: But hopefully it makes a triumphant return.
[00:34:28] Matt: Did you play Elden Ring?
[00:34:30] Jon: I did, hated it. But that's another discussion for another day.
[00:34:33] Matt: Oh my god, there might be a part two to this series right here. Hated it?
[00:34:40] Jon: yeah.
[00:34:41] Matt: let's spend 30 seconds talking about why you hated it. I thought it was amazing.
[00:34:46] Jon: It is an amazing game. I will always say it's an amazing game. And I don't hate it because I'm not good at it or anything like that. I've actually gotten pretty far. I think it strayed away almost too much from what we were seeing with Dark Souls. And... I think the
[00:35:04] Matt: Too much hand holding in Elden Ring?
[00:35:09] Jon: you can make the case of both. I mean, you have a map where you can go anywhere and you have the things that it's like, Oh, I don't have to fight this person. And, Oh, I have, I I'm okay with the no handholding, go out and seek things on your own. But I think when that happens, It almost makes it feel like gaming can become a little bit of a waste of time because it's like, all right, well, where am I going and I'm just exploring and that's fine, but it could be a little, it's no different to me and some people might flame me for this, but it's not that much different to me than the Ubisoft games where it's like all of these different things that you need to complete on this giant map and none of it really means as much.
[00:35:47] Jon: I don't know. That's, that's always been my, Okay.
[00:35:50] Matt: had a flamethrower under this desk, I would I, I tell you, I hated
[00:35:57] Jon: Yeah.
[00:35:58] Matt: Valhalla. Assassin's Creed, which was like the first Assassin's [00:36:00] Creed that I ever really, really played. and I was like, man, this game gives me no satisfaction and the, and I beat it. Out of spite because I was just like, I was just like, I don't even want, I will, I refuse to have wasted that many hours and not complete the game.
[00:36:18] Matt: how I would have felt with Elden Ring, you know, and, and I think the only open world thing that had as many different things to do, even if they didn't mean much was the Witcher. The Witcher 3 was like the only one time I did that. Otherwise, I do and prefer a more straightforward, maybe that's why I like Armored Core, not just the mech part, but just the fact that it's straight mission based.
[00:36:37] Matt: so you have this progression, like a satisfaction of progression, leveling up.
[00:36:41] Jon: yeah, there's something to it, or if it's structured in a way like God of War is structured, or the newer ones, where it's like, all right, yeah, there's all this other stuff you could do, but there is this path that you need to, whereas some of these open big games where it's oh, forget about the main thing, just go off and do, I don't know, and maybe it's because I spent all this time on YouTube and doing all this other stuff, I feel like I don't have the time, so I want like a straightforward, that's probably the reason,
[00:37:04] Matt: I like to, I like to call it God of War, the 70 interactive movie, because that's what it is. there's no, there's the opposite like challenge of you can get lost in Elden Ring And have, really difficult, challenging, fights. whereas God of War is massively entertaining and awesome, you know?
[00:37:27] Matt: But it's linear and it keeps you going down this path, I feel.
[00:37:31] Jon: No, you're right.
[00:37:32] Matt: but it's just as soon as I beat it, I delete it. Because I'm just like, I'm never going to play this again. It was awesome, but I'm never going to play it again. Where's Elden Ring? I could go on it. Anyway. probably lost half the audience talking about video games, John.
[00:37:45] Matt: This was amazing. I'd love to have you back. Where can folks find you on the internet to say, thanks.
[00:37:50] Jon: John automates on pretty much everything, although mainly the only things I'm really on are YouTube. I am on X, I am on Instagram, I don't have any posts, so mainly just YouTube, and I am just John Clark over at StellarWP.