Nick & Amanda D'Angelo - Why Is Online Dating So Hard?

Show Notes

Nick & Amanda D'Angelo - Why Is Online Dating So Hard? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why podcast. This is a very special episode. I am sitting by the most beautiful woman in the world. My wife, Rob Englert.

Robyn Englert: Thanks, Peter.

Peter Englert: Aaron, usually our co-host, he's illustrious. So, I have to call you beautiful. I don't have to. I get to. We are brought to you by Browncroft Community Church. We exist to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. We're thankful for our fantastic producer, Nathan Yoder. We are part of the Lumina of network of podcasts. Today, we get to talk about online dating with Nick and, formerly Amanda Bundy, but now Amanda D'Angelo.

Robyn Englert: Wee hoo.

Nick D'Angelo: Did it.

Peter Englert: That's what I'm talking about. Are we technically an online couple? Or, how would you...

Amanda D'Angelo: Long distance. We met in person first, and then exchanged messages. We were in different states. But, I would say, technically, probably not online, but long distance.

Peter Englert: Mm. That was very much a 12 year old right there, doing that mm. Anyways. Let me pull my questions up just for a second. The question we're asking is why is online dating so hard? We've heard there's been some significant shifts in all of that. What we're going to do though is... Amanda's been on recently. So, I actually want to start with Nick.

Nick D'Angelo: Sure.

Peter Englert: Before we talk about you marrying this wonderful woman here, tell us a little bit about your faith journey and introduce us to yourself.

Nick D'Angelo: Sure. Yeah, Nick D'Angelo. 31 years old. Been actually at Browncroft since preschool. Been at one church home for 26, 27 years. Grew up in Rochester, Webster specifically. Went to University of Buffalo. But, the faith journey aspect, grew up in a Christian household and went through this youth group. But, the faith became my own when I went to college, really. When rubber meets the road for so many folks, as it did for me, where I had to decide, "Hey, this either has to be the most important thing or nothing at all." Because, the metaphysical reality, the theological nature of God existing and Jesus existing and having risen from the dead, cannot be second or third in my ranking. That was the brain work that I did in college and the soul work that the Lord did on me in and throughout college and post. It's been just a continued experience of grace and truth ever since then.

Peter Englert: Wow. Before we jump into online dating though, Amanda, why don't you just update us since the last podcast?

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh, just with life in general.

Peter Englert: Yeah.

Amanda D'Angelo: Well, I got married to Nick D'Angelo, which was wonderful. We had a great day, May 14th. And, we have now been married for two...

Nick D'Angelo: Two and a half weeks.

Amanda D'Angelo: Two and a half weeks.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah.

Amanda D'Angelo: It's interesting having the wedding be over and getting even more settled into things. You feel those emotions of missing friends and missing the life that you had. It's an adjustment, but it's all wonderful. I praise God that he's in the midst of it.

Robyn Englert: Great. Well, let's talk about how your story began.

Amanda D'Angelo: Mm.

Robyn Englert: When did you two... It might be different, but when did you two make the decision to start online dating?

Amanda D'Angelo: Mm. For me, it was March of 2020 when COVID hit. I was going to one of the biggest churches in Buffalo and not meeting any men. Between that experience, and then COVID shutting everything down and I know I would not meet a guy, I was like, "Okay, I will do what my sister has always recommended and I will go online dating. I will start this process." When I did, I just set some standards for myself and what I wanted and was open to what would happen. It wasn't until that November that I met Nick.

Robyn Englert: Okay. Can I just follow up? What do you mean you set some standards?

Amanda D'Angelo: I actually wanted to make sure that I was guarding my heart for what I would experience. I've heard a lot of horror stories about online dating. Online dating was something I never wanted to be a part of. I wanted God to have this wonderful, amazing, magical story that I could tell everyone about including my kids one day. I didn't think that that could happen through online dating. Going into it, knowing that it could be difficult, I said, "Here's what I'm going to look for. I'm going to look for someone who, not only in their profile selects Christian, but also in something else says something about their faith in God."
It wasn't just like, "Oh, my religious faith? Yeah. I'm a Christian." It was also I go to church, as Nick alluded to in his profile. Or, I'm in a Bible study or this is my favorite book that's a Christian book. I was like, "Okay, there's more meat to it." I set those things moving forward to say, and look geographically too. [inaudible] anyone in Canada, because obviously during COVID can't see them. I put those boundaries up for myself to say what I was looking for.

Robyn Englert: Great. Thank you.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah.

Robyn Englert: What about you, Nick?

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah, I started at the very end of 2019, and was on and off online dating. And, was on and off several websites and services, paid, free apps. Probably half a dozen in total. But, not all at the same time for that entire amount of time. I was on and off probably half a dozen dating services for approximately a year before I met Amanda.

Peter Englert: Okay. Before we jump in, I feel like online dating has semi changed, but there's still a little bit of stigma. Let's start with both of you. How did you initially feel about online dating and how did the people around you feel about online dating?

Amanda D'Angelo: Do you have an answer first?

Nick D'Angelo: I can answer.

Amanda D'Angelo: Okay. Go for it.

Nick D'Angelo: I had gotten out of a long term relationship and I thought to myself, "Well, I work with all men. My hobbies are hunting and softball, which are all men. And, I don't know of any women at the church at the moment that are of interest to me. I feel ready to be married and I don't know of any other great ideas." So, I felt okay doing it. But, I feel like the stigma or the difficulties are generational to a degree. I feel like the previous generation was, "Online dating is for the desperate or for the isolated."
I feel like that's waning a bit and some of that stigma is gone. But, the newer one is the Tinder shade of it, where it's exclusively for hooking up and for being not serious about dating. I experienced both of those things. A friend legitimately asked me almost word for word, very good friend of mine, "Dude, don't do that. You've got to meet a woman in the wild." I said, "The problem is where I'm at in the wild is only men. I don't know where to meet them."

Robyn Englert: Was that common? Because, you said one friend said that. Do you have other friends that had similar thought?

Nick D'Angelo: Most of my friends said referrals are a good source. A lot of my friends get married from referrals or set ups, so to speak. But, some were... If you do it wisely, they didn't see anything inherently wrong with it. But, even for myself, I wouldn't have preferred online dating because I'm a mind before the heart guy. I would very much have rather gotten to know someone organically than having to go through this almost very complicated blind dating structure of online dating.

Peter Englert: We will come back to that because I think that's a fascinating topic. But, Amanda, what about you?

Amanda D'Angelo: I probably have a part of my story that many people can relate to as far as the purity culture. When I became serious about my faith at 17, the first book I picked up was a book by Eric and Leslie Ludy called When God Write Your Love Story. It was about this couple that completely surrendered their love life to God and said, "Lord, you take the pen and you write the story. I will sit back and just wait for you to move and act." That included not going on dates unless you saw marriage material in them. But, how do you actually see that unless you go on a date, unless you're actually able to be in a group setting? Not being tempted at all by the opposite sex. So, now you're being alone with another person of the opposite sex.
Really, you're barricading yourself in this whole I'm just going to wait for God to move. There was no way that I was going to put myself out there on a dating app where I'm blatantly saying, "I want to be in a relationship with someone and I'm going to take action myself instead of just waiting around for God to move." It was very difficult for me to get to a point where I was okay with online dating. It took a pandemic to get me to that point where I was like, logistically, I don't know how else this will work besides going on online dating.

Robyn Englert: Well, the irony is the title of that book was parody culture, but God did write your love story. He used online dating for your story, both of yours.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yes. When I tell people the story of how Nick and I actually met, God is all over that. Because, with the circumstances that I was in, there's no way... God opened my heart to it. And then, with Nick's part of the story, which we can share now or later, God was working in his heart too, to be okay with the aspect of his story, which we can share now if you want.

Nick D'Angelo: The short version is I was pretty protective over my geography and I basically felt led that you can do long distance if it feels worth it. That was basically in my head. And then, I was in the deer stand of all places, hunting, right before Thanksgiving. I felt led to widen my diameter, or radius, to I'll include Buffalo and Syracuse. Not 10 minutes later, did I find a prompt from Amanda and comment on it.

Peter Englert: Let's talk about the actual mechanics. What app did you use? Amanda, did you make the first move?

Amanda D'Angelo: Interesting.

Peter Englert: Just walk us through.

Amanda D'Angelo: My sister has done a few of the dating apps and that was the person I knew some information from. For some reason, I just went right to Hinge. It could have been the Trey Kennedy video of dating apps where he actually... He showed it in a way that actually there's some good people on Hinge. The other ones were just horrific and I'm like, "I think I can go with Hinge." And, I will say that Hinge... I had some good conversations with great guys. Really had a pretty good experience. Definitely you're sifting through some other not so great experiences. But, I went with that one. Right before I met Nick, I was almost going to use Bumble. But, then Nick came in the picture and I didn't have to. I've heard some good things about that app as well.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah. So, it was Hinge. I tried Bumble, Hinge, Coffee Meets Bagel, eHarmony, Match, Christian Mingle. Tried, again, not all at the same time, not as a crazy person. Sometimes overlapping. I felt like Hinge, in my opinion, was the best combination of pool. Because, Bumble and Tinder have the most people on them. But, the least amount of them are serious by proportion. Whereas if you're on eHarmony, there might only be X amount of people in your zone. I feel like Hinge, in my opinion, or my experience, was the sweet spot of there's a lot of people...

Peter Englert: You better say it's in your sweet spot.

Nick D'Angelo: It's in my sweet spot. It was the right amount of, "Hey, there's still some choice here. But, the choices are also high quality with good conversations." Technically, I reached out. She had a prompt. Well, she likes telling the story. But, yes, I reached out and she loves telling the story.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. On Hinge you can pick different prompts that you answer. One of mine was, "I'm looking for someone who..." And, I filled in the blank of, "Loves Jesus, enjoys deep conversation and a shared sense of humor." Nick's response was, "All unequivocally vital." And, I was hooked.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah, even despite her purity culture hangups, I technically made the first move.

Amanda D'Angelo: Right.

Nick D'Angelo: She just had to make it known that she was single.

Robyn Englert: Well, she had to be in an arena where you were. During COVID and the pandemic, but also Buffalo, Rochester, the overlap is... Harder to overlap.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. Yeah. I remember my aunt saying something to me years ago, knowing my mindset towards dating, where I was closed off. She said, "You have to show at least some interest to a guy in order for them to approach you. Otherwise, they come off as real creepy, just coming out of nowhere and making a move. Whereas if you catch their eye or give them a smile or initiate a conversation, then they know that you're interested." So, that helped me too.

Nick D'Angelo: At least hopefully know. I'm Captain Clueless, but it doesn't matter now.

Peter Englert: Well, I want to come back to something that you said about online dating and being harder. I think what makes online dating harder is you don't know what you're dealing with. I love how in the book, Modern Romance, Aziz Ansari actually talks about this. There's unlimited options of men and women on there. Even if faith's a big deal, not all of our listeners think faith is a big deal. Even when you narrow it down to loves to play volleyball and listens to Cigarros, there's still a lot of options out there.
But, I love your comment about the wild. Robyn and my experience in long distance was we actually felt less pressure because, and this is how old I feel, FaceTime was just coming out. And, Robyn's first smartphone was when FaceTime came out. Anyways, she was texting with the dial pad. But, that's all the...

Robyn Englert: It worked.

Peter Englert: But, I felt like going online shielded us from the pressure of other people, for us to get to know each other. I don't know. How did you guys feel about the interactions?

Nick D'Angelo: One of the benefits I felt was something I needed for my personal development. To explain that, I'll say this. I grew up in the purity culture of the nineties and the two thousands. A lot more to say about that, but I would say mixed feelings about it. Not all in the negative. One of my youth leaders, Mike Swank, would say, "We taught you well what not to do, but no one taught you what to do." So, I had very limited dating experience and took dating seriously, which was the positive side.
But, I really, to know who I needed to be with to marry, needed some experience. Online dating apps filled that hole greatly. Because, if I just went on dates with a bunch of girls from church, it's very easily going to burn some bridges and get a bad reputation. Whereas, if you're strictly going on online dating apps with people that aren't in your immediate circle and they're explicitly for the same things and you establish healthy boundaries, in my opinion, it was a very healthy experience to do some of that work that probably ought to have been done a decade prior.

Peter Englert: Did you feel the same way, Amanda? That there's a little less pressure when you started engaging Nick? Or, is there a part of you that wishes you met Nick in the wild?

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh, there's always a part of me that wishes I met Nick in the wild. I will joke with him and say, "What would you say to me if we were both going to Browncroft?" He's like, "I would just try to get to know you." I'm like, "No, what would your line be to me?" He's like, "No, I would just try to get to know you." I want the story. I want to know what that would be like. It seems way more exciting to think that you could just meet someone and like, "Oh, I've never noticed them before. Or, they were in my life and I didn't realize that they were an option." That's what I was against with online dating. It's like someone just comments on my profile and then we just start a conversation and that's it. But, like I said, "There's more to it." Like you said, God still writes the story. It just looks a little different than what you think.

Peter Englert: Nick would've walked up to you and said, "I unequivocally want to go out with you." That would've been his line.

Amanda D'Angelo: Thank you, Peter. Thank you for filling the blanks.

Nick D'Angelo: I'm not inherently a risk taker. Outside of online dating, I'm not an ask X, Y, Z person out for coffee. Which I think did me some detriment, but I'm not. And, in no way, am I regretful. Because, despite the fact that I got married slightly older at 31, I had no regrets given that I got Amanda.

Peter Englert: Let's come back to... Because, you both have mentioned this. I think some of our listeners, they run with this assumption. I'm actually curious to hear your opinion. But, you've mentioned purity culture from the 1980s and 1990s. What were the pros and cons as you tried to process through that?

Robyn Englert: Nineties, 2000. But, that's okay.

Nick D'Angelo: It probably was eighties. I mean sexual revolution, and the church responded to that, eighties, nineties, 2000's. Silver ring thing, even with the Jonas Brothers, was in '07, '08. It was a long lasting thing.

Peter Englert: One of the things I love about Robyn, is Robyn's super detailed. I'm like, "There was like 30 people there." She was like, "There's like 15."

Amanda D'Angelo: Peter, I can relate to that. I can relate.

Peter Englert: Anyways. But, how did purity culture, whenever it was, how did that affect both of you positively and negatively when it came to dating?

Amanda D'Angelo: I grew up and still can struggle with being very insecure. I think that book, if I did not have purity culture, I think I would have fallen into relationship at the first guy that showed me attention.

Peter Englert: Mm.

Amanda D'Angelo: I remember one guy I was very interested in. We had a great conversation, long hours at night talking, friends, and he wanted more than I did. It was mainly because I saw things in his life I was not okay with. But, if I hadn't had those guards up and that standard higher, I would've easily dated him and it would've been difficult. And, I think I would've done things I would've possibly regretted. That's a pro of the purity culture. It guards your heart.
The con of that is that you're not trained to successfully date or get to know someone. One of the best pieces of advice I got about dating was just get to know someone. Don't walk into a room and say, "Who is the potential here? Who could I actually go on a date with? Who's interested in me?" Just walk into a room and say, "Who can I get to know?" And, build a relationship and a friendship from that.

Nick D'Angelo: I'd say that, purity culture, the pro side was the science of dating. What I mean by that is filling out the Excel chart. Do we have things in common? I think the science of dating is on the side of purity culture where having high standards, making sure we're living in reality, not in fairytale land. The art of dating, I would say, where do you actually like this person, do all the things that don't fit out an Excel chart go in hand? Is there chemistry? In my mind, those things were not in the purity culture thing. How do you assess those nitty gritty details that are all in the gray area? In my mind, that wasn't something that fit well into purity culture.

Robyn Englert: I think that something in my role, I'm a therapist, as Peter has mentioned in past episodes. But, in my role, I often will talk to individuals growing up in that time period. They do struggle with knowing how to date or what to say or what's okay, both for the male and the female. It's not just one gender. I think I like how you used Mike's quote and said we learned what not to do, but we didn't learn what to do. I've read a lot of different relationship books and one piece of advice I will give people is you have to be okay with hearing no and being rejected. That is so important, not just in dating, but in life.
We live in a culture, even beyond dating, where we don't want to be rejected in any way, shape and form. In one of the books, the therapist was talking to the client and he said, "I want you to go out and I want you to ask a hundred women to coffee." And, he's like, "A hundred women?" He goes, "A hundred women. Not all of them are going to say yes. Don't go through this whole laundry list, just whoever you can ask." The whole point was, he's like, "I wasn't going to marry every one of them, but I had to get used to hearing no and facing that fear and insecurity so that I could have the courage to actually enjoy the conversations." Otherwise, by the time you ask somebody, you've put them up on a pedestal and you don't even know their first name. You're just psyching yourself out. I think that is one thing with purity culture, what not to do, we had this whole long list. And then, we would overthink everything. Or, could.

Amanda D'Angelo: Wow.

Nick D'Angelo: Hopefully, a helpful add to that is I am a pretty protective person, both of myself and others. I felt like part of the purity culture thing of not leading a woman on was anytime I went on a date with someone and it didn't lead towards marriage, I felt like a failure, that I hurt her. But, the risk of being hurt is inherent to the dating system. I had to reframe it in my mind of not everything that doesn't lead to marriage is a failure. In fact, a relationship that should last three dates, only lasting three dates, is a success. Because, dating done with healthy boundaries would actually grow you and that other person. And, you can have a fun time together and that's okay. Dating that should last three months lasting three months is a success. Dating that should lead to marriage, leading to marriage, is a success, not failure. That was a big paradigm shift for me.

Peter Englert: I've never really asked you if you were on any dating sites. I did Christian Mingle and I know that I talk like I'm six five, but I'm really five six. It was right before I met Robyn. I think I only went on one date. I walk into Barnes and Noble and I see my date, and she is six one. I'm looking into the camera, her face when she... I go, "Hi, I'm Peter." It was visible disappointment of you're five. I couldn't get... But, to Nick's point, in some ways, even after that, I laughed about it. Online dating actually took the pressure off. I'm not going to see this person again. We had a great coffee, we texted a little bit, nothing happened. I feel that way. I wish I would've done more. Did you get on an online dating site?

Robyn Englert: I never actually hit submit on the dating site. But, I had a friend and we filled it out and I overanalyze everything. So, there was a few questions that I was like, "I have to come back to." I just never pulled the trigger. Does that surprise you?

Peter Englert: That is just so beautiful and wonderful. Let's have some fun here. Aaron, my co-host said, "Hey, you got to ask this question." If you saw someone's profile of someone that you work with or went to church with, how would you advise someone? Do you go up and talk to them?

Robyn Englert: Do you acknowledge you saw them on the site?

Peter Englert: How would you handle it? Because, I think we talked before. I don't think that that happened. Were there men at the chapel?

Amanda D'Angelo: Yep. There were. It depended on who it was. Because, there was one where there was no way I was going to go up to them and say anything, because I wasn't interested. I was not going to select or like anything on his profile. There was another one that was my friend. So, I was like, "Hey, I saw you in the dating app. How great is that? That's funny. How's it going for you?" It just depend on the person for me. But, it didn't happen too often because I think that I knew all the single guys at the chapel and that was... Yeah, I knew what I was looking for.

Nick D'Angelo: Not directly in my circle at the church, but friends of friends. I would see my friends in their profile pictures and all that. I came up with, if I have a way to contact them apart from the site, I felt like that was a more honorable thing to do. It didn't end up happening, but I thought if I have a real connection with this person, I'll take it offsite and just reach out that way. But, people from my high school saw lots of them. I was just like, "Okay, interesting."

Amanda D'Angelo: I think the advice I would give is, one, this could be seen as over spiritualizing it, but I don't think it is. Just pray. Ask God what to do in that moment. Especially if you are truly interested in that person. But, secondly, just be you. If it's you that you would actually go up to someone face to face and say, "Hey, I saw you in the dating app and I'm doing it. How's it going for you?" Just have a conversation. Or, if it's for you sending them a message, then just be who you are. Nick actually, in dating, said the best thing you can do is just be who you are. Because, then we can actually discern if this is going to work or not.

Nick D'Angelo: That was one of our early... We did only weekly for the first month or two. But, we would do long FaceTime calls. We got in our heads a little bit about it.

Amanda D'Angelo: Because, we saw major potential right away.

Nick D'Angelo: Right. But, some of her insecurities were flaring up and some of my things about not screwing it up, not hurting anyone. I was like, "If you're you the whole time, then whether we're leading towards breakup or towards marriage, we're leading the direction we need to be heading."

Peter Englert: Let's have some fun with this. Apparently, rumor has it, you both are enneagram ones.

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh no. Mm-mm. I am an enneagram one.

Peter Englert: I thought you were an enneagram.

Nick D'Angelo: I have tested historically as a two-one, but that is according to her, who's more the expert than me. It's likely because that's how I was raised, or my upbringing, and that my characteristics match a six-five. In grown up post-therapy reality.

Peter Englert: No matter what enneagram type is, important, but you both cared about getting it right.

Nick D'Angelo: Oh, yeah.

Amanda D'Angelo: Absolutely.

Peter Englert: What was the insecurities that you were dealing with? What was the, "I want to get this right." Take our listeners... Because, we didn't talk for... We met each other. I Facebook messaged her for coffee. There was a two to three months of only two or three contacts. When did you figure out, "Hey, we should do one once a week." When did you figure all... Just give us the mechanics.

Amanda D'Angelo: I'm smiling because our conversation obviously started on the app. And then, my job title said volunteer coordinator, but I didn't say where. Nick asked about that, but I didn't tell him what church I was doing that job at because I was like, "If he's a creep, I don't want him to know where I work." I like told him more about the job. And then, he said, "Oh, that's cool. When I was at UB, I would go to the chapel." I was like, "Okay, I'm good with meeting with you face to face." I felt comfortable. I think that it was a natural progression of how often we would see each other.

Nick D'Angelo: It was, I think, six weeks every weekend. Now, fortunately/unfortunately it was COVID, so we had nothing else going on on the weekends. Because, everything was locked down. The difficulty with that was all of our interactions were highly intentional.

Amanda D'Angelo: Very.

Nick D'Angelo: At an apartment or at a restaurant or in a car because everything was shut down. We weren't able to have a lot of fun, which is part of how that other conversation came to be about just trying to be yourself. But, we didn't solve the, "How do we stay over, get lodging so that we're not sleeping in the same place." We took a month and a half to solve that.

Amanda D'Angelo: I mean, guys, date two we were talking about marriage. Not between each other, but what we were looking for. Even his roommate said, you guys have talked about things that people don't talk about until they're talking about engagement. But, that's just the people that we are. We're very intentional. I think that's what we, at least for me, I went into with online dating. My standards were very high and even my family would say your standards are too high. Not the case, apparently. Because, it helps sift through all the other people because I know what I'm looking for.

Robyn Englert: Would you say, because both of you had some online dating experience with others, but in conversations, would you say that other people had those same standards or did that knock a lot of people out?

Nick D'Angelo: I dated several people. Some were more on my wavelength of, "Hey, it's COVID and I'm using this as a healthy way to meet people and give it a go. I'm treating this as a no pressure thing." One person explicitly said, "I'd prefer not to become official until about two months of getting to know you." I thought, "Okay." That's a whole different story than some folks who were, after two or three dates, wanted it to be official or to go nowhere. Very different. I saw all over the board with that. For my perfectionistic, I feel like I hurt someone if I reject them and that's against my programming. I did not want her to be misled or mistreated by me in any way. That's why I would always overshare, which creates its own problems.

Robyn Englert: That's another episode. Okay.

Amanda D'Angelo: I would say, if I could be honest, I didn't really find someone who had those similar standards as I did before meeting Nick, which maybe is a testament to my standards.

Nick D'Angelo: And...

Amanda D'Angelo: Go ahead.

Nick D'Angelo: This will sound arrogant, but it is factual. I had four women explicitly tell me you're the only guy I found of your quality, as in legitimate Christian, who does Christian disciplines, on XYZ site thus far. I was like, "A, that's very sad."

Amanda D'Angelo: Right.

Nick D'Angelo: It seems like, from the data that she and her friends have gotten, that the glut of opportunity is in favor of the men, where it seems to be a lot of high quality gals on online dating and it's little slimmer pickings the other way.

Robyn Englert: Okay.

Amanda D'Angelo: That's what I find everywhere I go. The chapel, Browncroft, I am surrounded by beautiful, godly women. And, I'm shocked that they're still single.

Nick D'Angelo: Single. Yeah.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. I'm shocked they're still single. It's few and far between, the godly men who are practicing spiritual disciplines and are not socially awkward and those kinds of... I mean, to each their own. But, it is. It's few and far between which I think females probably have a far more difficult time on dating apps than men do. That could be just from what I've talked to with people, but that's what I'm finding.

Peter Englert: Well, asking men to not be socially awkward is pretty...

Nick D'Angelo: We're creepy.

Peter Englert: It's a tall ask.

Robyn Englert: Yeah.

Peter Englert: Robyn's like, "You said it." Well, I want to come back because, I'm not saying... I think this is descriptive, not prescriptive. What I mean by that is, I think by hearing your story, it's going to be helpful. You talked about the in person, but you made a comment, "Hey, we only FaceTime once a week." I guess I'm trying to figure out how did you make the decision. Nick, you said a couple times, "I'd go out on three dates and she wanted to be official." I don't know how that was for you. But, how did you go from, unequivocally, this is a great profile to we're official. Besides seeing in person, how often did you text, how often did you talk? What were the decisions? Because, you guys, I mean, you're super intentional.

Nick D'Angelo: She was ready way before me. I felt, again, brain before the heart guy. I really wanted to go into the relationship being official with a tremendous sense of peace. Coupled on top of that, she had only had one official boyfriend prior to me and that flamed out really quick. I wanted to be to honor that and not just jump into anything. Our calls were long and we were doing just day dates for a while, until we solved the where does someone sleep problem. And, the fact that she would have off on Fridays and work on Sundays and I wouldn't. There was a bit of that. So, it took two months from November 28th to January 28th for me to ask for it to be official. But, by the time January rolled around a month and a half in, we had increased the communication considerably.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. I say this next part carefully because not everyone's story is going to be the same. But, after two dates and one FaceTime call, I messaged my friend and I said, "I don't know how this guy is not my husband." I knew almost right away.

Peter Englert: Did you see how proud he looked? He was like, "Yep."

Nick D'Angelo: Although to be fair, if someone has seen my engagement proposal video to her...

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh my...

Nick D'Angelo: After date one, I vlogged to myself greater than 50% chance we get married.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah.

Nick D'Angelo: So, I knew it, but I was so hesitant to make it official. [inaudible]

Peter Englert: Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. You vlogged after the first...

Nick D'Angelo: After the first date. And, after the second...

Peter Englert: Is this in the interwebs?

Nick D'Angelo: It is on YouTube, but it's a private video. If you'd like it I'll send it to you.

Peter Englert: I feel like we have to share this with Why God Why.

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh man.

Nick D'Angelo: It's a 10 minute video and it's very mushy.

Amanda D'Angelo: I cry essentially every time I watch it. It's amazing.

Peter Englert: Let's continue.

Nick D'Angelo: Anyway, the video I proposed to her with is vlogs throughout our whole dating relationship.

Peter Englert: Wow.

Nick D'Angelo: And, the Nick flavor to it is that every time I'm talking, I'm giving an update on the percentage likelihood that we get married.

Amanda D'Angelo: And, it only increases with each blog.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah. So, that's kind of what happened.

Peter Englert: By the way, folks, Nick works with spreadsheets and numbers.

Nick D'Angelo: That's my world.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah, yeah. It was actually really difficult for me because I was ready to make it official sooner than Nick was. I had to have conversations with my mentor and my friends. The beautiful part about that is that they knew and could catch onto Nick's personality right away. They said, "Amanda, when he makes it official, you know that he means it with all his heart and mind and soul. So, be patient. Trust God. And, just keep enjoying the journey with him." It obviously and certainly all paid off.

Nick D'Angelo: Share about the, "Are you dating other girls? thing."

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh. There were parts of this...

Robyn Englert: That's a great question.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. It's a great question. Obviously, with online dating and you're not making things official probably right away, you're wondering are they still on the app? Are they going on other dates? Is it just me that they're seeing? I had this conflict in my mind probably after two or three weeks, maybe.

Nick D'Angelo: Pretty soon.

Amanda D'Angelo: I expressed it to my friends and I said, "I don't know if he's seeing other girls. I have no idea." I just stopped right there and said, "You know what? I'm just going to pray about this. I'm just going to ask God to reveal this information if I need it." Prayed that night. Literally, the next day, Nick says, "Hey, I just want to let you know I turned off the app. I'm not seeing anyone else." It was just a beautiful... God truly has shown his presence in our relationship the whole way. I just gave those questions that I had to him first.

Peter Englert: We have a...

Robyn Englert: Well, can I...

Peter Englert: Oh.

Robyn Englert: I was going to... Can I push in there for just a second?

Peter Englert: Go for it.

Robyn Englert: It might not be with your story, but with your online dating experience, because that's a question that I have had often. People are like, "Can I date multiple people?" I get all of these different messages. Or, I'm going on dates with different people, is that being dishonest? What is your opinion, your perspective on that?

Nick D'Angelo: I think because I was on more than one site, I had a little bit more traction than she would have. I'm probably less picky than her in terms of a first date. There were times when, inside of a week, I would go on a date with two different folks. My basic thought was before anything is explicitly exclusive, it's not exclusive. But, within reason. If someone is presuming something, there's probably a sense there. I thought it was appropriate to tell her, "Hey," and turn them off because I was no longer in the early investigation stage I needed. I knew that the hold up was just in my heart and feeling peace about it. If I'm still scrolling and shopping, I'm never going to get there. I knew that the healthiest thing for me to do was to turn it off. After our first date, I had one follow up date that was already scheduled with a different person. The contrast there was clear to me. So, yeah, that was it.

Robyn Englert: I appreciate your self awareness there. Because, you said, "I knew if I didn't take myself off regardless of what Amanda thought on it, I was going to just keep thinking that way." I think that is important for everybody to know. If you're on there, it's not necessarily just a right or wrong, but how is it impacting you? I mean, up to a certain point.

Nick D'Angelo: You can't window shop forever.

Robyn Englert: Yes.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah.

Peter Englert: Well, you should tell your little story.

Robyn Englert: My story? It's actually your story. When we were... So, Peter lived in Pennsylvania and I lived in Rochester. We met up for coffee when he was in town working and I didn't realize it was a date. I thought he was just in town. We're just getting together as friends. No big deal until some comment. I'm like, "I'm going to come back to that. Tuck that away." But then, I didn't know this until later, the next day he went out to coffee with somebody else that his friends had set him up with, that referral. From him, from what you were saying, that helped with the contrast. He was like, "Oh yeah, conversation was so different between Robyn and this other individual." So, that helped him evaluate.

Peter Englert: You left off the best part of the whole story.

Nick D'Angelo: One of us is moving and it's not me.

Robyn Englert: That came later.

Peter Englert: We're getting there. Robyn asked. She's like, "Well, do you do this a lot?"

Robyn Englert: Because, he would travel for work.

Peter Englert: And, I was like, "A girl in every town or something?"

Robyn Englert: And, I was like, "Yeah, you met up for coffee."

Peter Englert: I was like, "No." I wouldn't necessarily define date. I just thought, "You know what? I'm just going to ask this woman for coffee." My friend, Joe, we outlined this in another episode. My friend Joe was the one that he's like, "You got to get those girls a number." I think we did that. But, even after the date, like you, I was like... And, the woman was wonderful, who I went to a Starbucks with. But, it was just very clear Robyn and I had a different chemistry. You brought it up. Robyn and me, we prayed. As you can all tell, my wife's wonderful. She's gracious. But, she did make the line. She said, "Somebody's moving and it's not me."

Nick D'Angelo: I did similar early on.

Peter Englert: So, it catches up. Tell us, how did you make the decision, get engaged, all of that. What did it look like?

Robyn Englert: Because, especially with online dating, you can have a radius and it can be quite far.

Amanda D'Angelo: Absolutely. I mean, you had a conversation with me, was this...

Nick D'Angelo: Day two.

Amanda D'Angelo: Nick, literally, probably knows every single date we've been on. But, especially the first 10. He can name exactly what we did at each one. I just love that. I think it was the sixth or seventh. He took me by the water. And, you said, "How do you actually feel about moving?"

Nick D'Angelo: That was date six.

Amanda D'Angelo: Because, we talked about that date two. We talked about that.

Nick D'Angelo: Date two, I just wanted to approach the elephant in the room. We do not live in the same place.

Amanda D'Angelo: Buffalo, Rochester, hour and 15 minutes away. Someone's going to have to move.

Nick D'Angelo: Someone's first idea was let's move to Batavia.

Amanda D'Angelo: I said Batavia. And, Nick's like, "No." [inaudible] There's nothing in Batavia. No offense to Batavia.

Peter Englert: We love you in Batavia.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yes, we do. Yes. But, not for us.

Nick D'Angelo: Ultimately, I broached the subject date two. And then, date six I said we both have family and jobs that are great. One of our jobs is harder to move and...

Amanda D'Angelo: His.

Nick D'Angelo: Mine. I seemed to have a bigger, deeper network. I just wanted to be honest with my own limitations, that I'm a deep roots person and I knew it would be very difficult emotionally and practically for me to move. I wanted to respect her enough to tell her early on. I don't want you to get to the end of a year of dating and hope I'm willing because I don't know if that's possible.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. And, for me, I have always felt open handed with where I would live. Always. I just was willing. I mean, the guy that I was talking to before Nick, he was from Texas and I actually was like maybe. I was open to it. Even before him, I was like, "Lord, wherever you want to take me, I will go." The hardest thing though, was that I had just gotten my job at the chapel, that I prayed for for five years. I'd only had it for...

Nick D'Angelo: Six months.

Amanda D'Angelo: ... a few months. And then, I met Nick and I thought, "Lord, why did this happen five months in, getting a dream job that I wanted? Why did this happen?"

Nick D'Angelo: You were in a great small group.

Amanda D'Angelo: Guys, I had my routine. I had a book club I was starting. I had a Zumba class. I had everything. And then, God brought Nick into my life. I remember saying this to you on the sixth date when you asked me that question of if I'm willing to move. I said, "Out of all those things that I've desired, including my job at the chapel, the greatest thing I wanted even more than that, is a husband." So, that's what... I was like, "Yes, absolutely willing to move to Rochester."

Nick D'Angelo: But, we did long distance every weekend, but two weekends for 11 and a half months. From first meeting until the day I proposed to her was 11 and a half months. By six weeks after the proposal, the end of December, she had moved to Rochester. Stayed at a friend's house for free. We got an apartment for her and got the job here. It wasn't a cart before the horse thing. We knew it would be a little tighter window, but out of respect it was like, got to get engaged first.

Amanda D'Angelo: We were able to ask that question of me moving only because we had been intentional for the first month and a half, very intentional. Asking all the big questions to say, "Is this marriage material right here?"

Robyn Englert: Do you feel like online dating, just your personalities, you have to be more intentional? Or, just in general, it's the more intentional feel?

Amanda D'Angelo: I think for someone to have success, they have to know what they're looking for. If you are just on there saying I want to meet new people, I just want to figure out what I want, that's good to know. Hopefully the person that you're choosing to go on a date with or ask them out, they also know that about you as well. But, I think that if you're going on it to find a husband or a wife that has to be known by yourself and the person that you're interacting with. Because, I think that goes back to even if someone's seeing someone else. It depends on the content of the conversation and the relationship. Because, for Nick and I, it was very clear. I'm not looking at other profiles because we got something great here. Yeah, I would say that.

Nick D'Angelo: Can you repeat the question?

Robyn Englert: The intentionality. Both of you have mentioned that a few different times and I'm wondering if there was a difference with online versus in person meeting.

Nick D'Angelo: Sure. I would say there's pros and cons to both. The pool's much bigger and there's less ripple effects in your network. But, certainly, you don't have that passive getting to know somebody. You're not going into a date having spent six months in a small group with them and now you know some facts about their life. You already know if there's some chemistry. There's a lot of ways to play it. I would, for my own comfort level, ask someone their boundaries or expectations up front. Just because I didn't want, if someone needed to be official after two dates and I knew I wasn't going to be that person, versus if someone was explicitly just looking for a good time, that also wasn't who I was.
It's slightly more complicated, but I was willing to be explicit and to some people that was off putting or too forward. That was the nature of it. Some people thought I wasn't flirty and fun enough. My pickup line, after the all unequivocally vital, I complimented her hair because I thought that that was a strong affirmation, but was also non-sexual. So, appropriate. And then, the greatest opener ever, "What do you call cheese that's all by itself?"

Amanda D'Angelo: I said, "Craft singles." And, he said...

Nick D'Angelo: Provolone.

Robyn Englert: Wow.

Nick D'Angelo: That's how bad it is.

Robyn Englert: I'm laughing at both of you. But, we do listen to kid jokes at home. So, it's right in there.

Peter Englert: When I moved to Rochester, I was probably more Amanda and Robyn was more Nick. When I moved to Rochester, it was like, "I'm not moving here if I'm not getting married."

Amanda D'Angelo: Totally.

Peter Englert: It was funny because I moved, and then six weeks afterwards, I proposed. What was your rhythm moving proposal? How did that conversation go?

Nick D'Angelo: We started looking for rings in September and it took me... And, I'm glad we did it because her Pinterest board and the rings she chose were opposites.

Amanda D'Angelo: Ladies take a tip from my book. Listen, Pinterest does nothing. You actually have to try the ring on. Just a little tidbit.

Nick D'Angelo: I was 99% ready to go, but I needed some time to adjust to the reality. Because, like one of her friends said, when I make a commitment, it is in stone. It is not soft. It took me from September to November to finish coming to that realization and peace. And, to also make a plan for how I was going to actually pull off the proposal. But, yeah. It was known that no one was moving or changing jobs until the ring was on the finger.

Amanda D'Angelo: That was very difficult too, because it's not easy to find a job. Finding a job in a new city that I've never been a part of, it felt like a black hole. I was like, "How am I actually..." I could tear up thinking about that. I'm sitting in my job right now. How am I going to find a job? We're in a place that I've never been before. God definitely provided. There was a really tight balance and walk of what do we do next and how do we do this? And, really just trusting God through it all. When we went ring shopping in September, he made it sound like it was just for information's sake. Which it is. For Nick, it definitely is.

Nick D'Angelo: I never lied. I creatively told the truth.

Amanda D'Angelo: I didn't realize he's actually planning to propose very soon. That was another thing I had to be open handed with, to say, "Okay, God, I want this, but I'm trusting Nick's guidance in all this." And, we were open to communicating about our desires and what was next.

Nick D'Angelo: She... Bless her. She was probably ready to get married in July. Took her till November. But, she didn't show it or break down whatsoever in front of me until literally six days before I proposed to her, and was crying to me wanting to be married. It was hard to wait. In my head, I already had planned it. But, I had to pretend like it's still coming. Be patient. I knew like, chill out. It's happening next week.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah.

Robyn Englert: Easier for you than for her.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah. Exactly.

Amanda D'Angelo: Way more difficult.

Robyn Englert: Talked to many, many young ladies in that position.

Peter Englert: I actually made a very helpful mistake to Robyn. My boss from my previous job in Philadelphia sent me this really nice text and I did not scan the above text. It said, "Pete praying for you when you go to San Diego to surprise Robyn with the ring."

Robyn Englert: No, just go to San Diego. It didn't say the surprise Robyn.

Peter Englert: Well, she picked it up.

Robyn Englert: Detail. Because, I was like, "He's not coming with me. I'm going alone to San Diego. What?" But, I didn't tell him I saw it. So, he didn't know I knew.

Nick D'Angelo: That's okay.

Peter Englert: But, it was actually helpful because she knew that I was flying out there.

Amanda D'Angelo: Wow.

Peter Englert: So, that was...

Robyn Englert: It still was a surprise. I loved... The whole time I'm watching him. I'm like, "Where's he going to come up? Is he going to be on my plane with me? No. No." Had to wait until the last day. But, it was worth the wait.

Amanda D'Angelo: Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah.

Peter Englert: The time's gone really fast with this.

Amanda D'Angelo: Crazy.

Peter Englert: I mean, we should probably have dinner where we are not recording a podcast episode. Before we get to the question that we always ask at the end, if you were to do online dating over again, or talk to yourself 2020, 2019, what's one thing that you would've said to yourself that would've been helpful, that probably would've guided you in a helpful way?

Nick D'Angelo: I'm thinking.

Amanda D'Angelo: I'm thinking as well. My gut response to that is that, and I don't say this in a prideful way, I think I did it actually very well. Because, I walked into it with those standards of the guy has to... It has to be very clear on his profile that he loves Christ, to be very clear. I was very aware of how I was feeling throughout being on the app. My phrase was, "I'd rather be scrolling through a dating app trying to find a spouse, than scrolling through Facebook and Instagram." Because, that actually could produce something that I would desire.
I would just say to people, go into it with a full cup. Don't go into it saying, "I'm going to get the affirmation that I desire." Because, ladies, you're going to get guys who compliment you in a sexual way and non-sexual way. And, it's very tempting to entertain that and settle for what you don't actually want. I would say keep your standards high and be open in conversation with your community. Tell people what you're experiencing, tell people your struggles. Because, I talked to a lot of girls who feel shame that they're on the dating app.
I think I actually had the app hidden in a folder on my phone. With other people who I knew were online dating, I could talk to them about it. But, be honest with yourself and be honest with the Lord and honest with your community to say what you're doing and who you're interacting with. Show them the conversation and see what is happening, because it's very easy to settle and it's very easy to just be ingrained in those compliments that you're getting from other people.

Nick D'Angelo: Yeah, largely speaking, I was pretty pleased with how I handled myself. I would turn it off if I was getting overwhelmed or felt like my heart posture shifted to a more or lustful or shopping place, instead of being intentional about it.

Amanda D'Angelo: Agreed.

Nick D'Angelo: One of my friends, Hunter specifically, would call me after dates. Because, I'm not the person whose heart will get away from him. I needed someone to probe and say, "Hey, are you trying to force something? How do you actually feel about this person?" That was good accountability. I think I would tell myself, everyone, Josh Eisner, a bunch of people, Pete Englert, have told me in the past, you just kind of know. I probably would've said kind of know is not fireworks. Often, it will be bordering on easy. It will feel natural. It will feel right. But, that doesn't have to mean it's Disneyland, Disney World. We argue Land, World.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah. I say World, he says Land.

Nick D'Angelo: I would say that's what it will be like.

Robyn Englert: Well, one thing that I would also say, I think that I hear a lot about you were on for over a year. You were on for a couple months. I think it's also don't expect you're going to get on and in one month necessarily find your spouse. I think sometimes there's have realistic expectations of the intentionality, but also the time. I think that that can discourage people if they're saying, "I'm not seeing anybody." And, how you stated it, Nick. I had to check where's my heart in this. I think if you're getting really discouraged, you might take some time off and then come back on when you're ready. And, that's okay.

Amanda D'Angelo: Absolutely.

Robyn Englert: There's a lot of freedom and opportunity. But, just be aware of your own expectations as you get on.

Peter Englert: Because you answered Rob and I love it, I think I'll just add similar to Nick. Just don't take yourself too seriously. If it's really hard, that's not a relationship to go into. If you're always guessing or... It's funny. We watch all these romcoms where it's super difficult. Your favorite movie, You've Got Mail, it's super... That's not real life. But, the majority of couples that I meet that are in healthy places, when they were healthy dating, it was very natural. Well, we close the episode with the same question. What does Jesus have to say about online dating? The good news is Robyn and I, well, I get to answer and then the three of you get to clean up whatever mess I leave. Does that sound good?

Robyn Englert: It does. But, I really struggled with this one. I'm going to piggyback off of what you say. Clean it up, right?

Peter Englert: Clean it up. Bring in therapy where pastors mess up. Anyways, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say that one. But, anyways. I think... I don't want to sound like a cliche, and I want to be careful. But, if you're anxious or depressed or if you're not growing spiritually and if you're not in a good place, then I don't think it's going to be helpful for you to start dating and bring another person in. I just see throughout the Bible, how much the Bible talks about identity. I think about Colossians three, 12 through 17. It talks about a life full of gentleness, compassion, bearing with one another.
I would just encourage you that if you're looking to date, you're not going to be perfect. But, are you moving towards that? Sometimes we're not at perfect or ideal places, but there's a person that, in a differentiated way, I'm looking at my wife, she trained me well, you're both growing together. And, it's not this person's here and you're trying to... I think what Jesus would say is become the person that he created you to become, as you look, as you date. Online just becomes another platform that you can get to know other people. That's my...

Robyn Englert: Yeah. Well, I would just add along those lines. One of the things that I heard a lot today was both of... Just being intentional. Not just with each other, but also with praying about each step of the way. I think that is one thing Jesus, the Bible, would encourage us as you're getting to know someone, online or in person. Are you praying? Are you just seeking God's wisdom in each relationship. And then, I think of the cord of three strands. If you think of the husband, the wife, and then just the Holy Spirit, to weave the three. Those are the three strands together. There's so much strength and beauty in that.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah, not much to clean up, Peter. That was really good. I would say a few things. I think that the ways that the Lord has taught us to interact with people still apply to online dating. Be kind, be compassionate, be honest, be open, show Christ to the people that you're interacting with. I think that's, like you said, it's another platform. You're interacting with humans. It's not just someone's profile on the screen. It's a person who also is looking for something too. So, be true to who you are in Christ.
And, I just spoke to a friend about this literally this morning. She said, "Know that, in your desires, God is still in the midst of online dating. That he can still work in your desire to find a spouse through a dating app." That couldn't be more true for me in my life, that the person who was so against it now has found a husband on a dating app. I think those are two huge things I would say to what Christ would want. Just trust and surrender and be intentional with the Lord in it all, and open handed and honest with what you're going through with him.

Nick D'Angelo: Sure. Bat and clean up here.

Peter Englert: Just like in softball.

Nick D'Angelo: Just like in softball. Two of the things that come to my mind are knowing yourself well enough to know how the Lord has gifted you so you don't sell yourself short. And, maybe some of your temptations or struggles to the point where you're dealing with those things proactively with healthy accountability, and you're not saddling someone else with those unnecessarily. At the same time, I would say there is biblical wisdom inside of cultural wisdom from the past and the present. The past being the you find someone you like and you make the commitment. And, the present being set your bar high and have that fairytale. But, I would say, you know what, there's a happy medium to both of those things. Taking either of them too far would lead you down a bad road.

Peter Englert: Well, as always, you can find Amanda, she's on all the socials. We'll tag her. Nick is a hermit when it comes to social...

Nick D'Angelo: On and off. Yeah. I'm less fun. She's more fun than me. No one debates that.

Peter Englert: They do have the best polls, that usually I agree with Amanda.

Amanda D'Angelo: Yes.

Nick D'Angelo: I think I've won two and she's won three.

Amanda D'Angelo: Guys, we do polar opposites. We are strongly opinionated on certain things. And, we do a poll and we see what people say about it.

Peter Englert: Pizza does not go on your lap in the car. It goes on the floor. So, it doesn't get the...

Nick D'Angelo: It goes on the lap.

Amanda D'Angelo: That's the only one I disagree with. You did win that poll. I'm a passenger. It goes in the back. I don't want to hold the pizza. I'm not going to get stain on my jeans. No.

Nick D'Angelo: Anyway.

Peter Englert: Story of my life. Anyways, find them on all the socials. You can find us at whygodwhypodcast.com. Click the subscribe button. We'll be there. We are brought to you by Browncroft Community Church and Luminas, the podcast network. We're so glad you joined us today.