069 | Felice Capasso | Bringing Clarity to Spirits Consumers | Sesto Senso Academy

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 69 of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, Chris continues his conversation with Felice Capasso, diving deep into consumer misconceptions in the alcohol industry and how brand advocacy should be approached.

They examine consumers' misunderstandings about production processes, using the example of whisky from Scotland.

They also discuss the importance of educating consumers and professionals, the difference between creating a trend and establishing a category, and how to stand out in a crowded market.

Real-life analogies, like Italian food specialties, help illustrate the nuances of education and branding.

Additionally, the episode touches on the importance of retention in the hospitality industry's workforce and how brands can use logical, fact-based approaches to educate and engage effectively. 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 00:29 Consumer Misunderstandings in the Spirits Industry 03:59 The Importance of Open-Mindedness and Education 06:39 Creating and Defining Categories in the Spirits Industry 9:53 Pragmatic vs. Fluffy Storytelling 19:37 Building Category VS Cannibilizing Category 30:49 The Role of Education and Retention in the Industry 40:30 Closing Remarks and Contact Information

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Felice Capasso

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Felice Capasso

Global Winner Diageo World Class 2025 | WSET Level 3 Spirits Educator

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafare Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafare.
In episode 69 I continue the

conversation with Felicia
Capazzo from episode 68.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
I have a small ask that means a

lot to me.
If you enjoy this podcast, take

the time to leave a review on
Spotify or Apple podcast.

You will also find a detailed
transcript of the episode on

mafaredrinks.com where it gets
pre released 24 hours before

other platforms.
I think there is a big

misunderstanding, right?
And this within our industry

when it comes to consumers.
And because many consumers, for

example, they go and visit a
distillery, right?

They learn the the practices
they have in place for the

distillery, the production
process and the way they do

things.
And they believe that these

things that they learned are to
be applied to the world

category.
Absolutely, that's true.

Right.
So instead of instead of

understanding, that's great,
that's the way they do things.

I'll give you a very quick
example.

In Scotland, the three most
commonly known type of whiskeys

are single malt, blended and
grain whiskey.

Grain whiskey is typically
distilled in column stills.

However, you could easily you
could by law make grain whiskey

in pot as well, as long as you
don't use 100% malted barley and

still call it grain whiskey.
However, typically grain whiskey

is made in columns.
Malt whiskey must be distilled

in pot.
Now me consumer who goes to

visit a distillery in Scotland.
And this is just an as an

example.
And and and that's where I

learned that a column steel is
used to produce a grain whiskey.

And I know from my experience
that the grain whiskey is

slightly lighter in style
because it's distilled to a

higher distillation strength and
a malt whiskey is distilled in

pots.
That's why it's more character

for then it's it's pretty much,
you know, the problem comes when

when I as a consumer was just
witnessed and learned these

things go out, go and visit
production facilities somewhere

else in the world and then apply
the same things there.

Because pretty much in my mind
now, column stills only create

light or neutral spirits.
Pot stills only create character

full oilier, more mouthfeeling
kind of spirits.

You know, people need to
understand that laws and

traditional practices change by
category and by style within

that category.
While you were talking, I was

thinking about like being, since
we are both Italian, you know,

like it's a little bit like when
known Italians are talking about

Italian food.
No, like it always depends, you

know, the city that visited or
the friend that they had that

during Erasmus or, you know,
boyfriends or girlfriends or

whatever that is.
You know, like, you know, if

someone comes to your lands, you
know, like in the South and your

grandma is making like good for
them, It would be with a, you

know, big piece of meats boiling
for and cooking for 810 hours,

whatever.
Either if they go to Bologna, it

would still be ragu, but it
would be mincemeat, you know, So

it's exactly the same thing is
like, is ragu with mincemeat or

with the proper chunk of meats.
So people tend to fill up your,

let's call it ignorance from a
technical perspective.

So not knowing, you know, and
then the moment that Felicia

tells me something, then I feel
so energized and I was like,

shit, I got it, you know, now I
got it.

Now I now I know everything.
Now I know everything.

I've been to the distillery, I
know everything.

I've been to the training with
that brand ambassador.

He explained it to me.
That's the way forward, you

know, like now I will explain it
to everybody like that, but

that's, you know, they're all
imperfect sciences.

This one now you know, like you
never really grasp him in it's

keeping on educating.
I mean you, you are an educator

and you are still opening
bottles, drinking them, tasting

them to understand how to do it
because you never reach the top

of the mountain.
Yeah, let me just make something

clear.
What I'm complaining about is

not the fact that people don't
know, because that's never been

an issue.
I'm complaining against the

attitude.
Absolutely.

Yes, that's the real problem,
because the spirits industry is

complicated.
Even now I have a hard time with

certain spirits.
You know, it's, it's completely

normal, but it's about the
attitude, you know, it's about

first of all, having, having an
open mind.

And this is for the
professionals as well, not only

for the consumers, OK.
Is it for life in general?

Yes, it's about having an open
mind and it's about questioning

everything.
And it's about making logic win

in the end.
Not feelings, but facts, because

logic has to be built based on
facts, not feelings.

So it's about these three
things.

I was having a very interesting
conversation in a previous

episode with Nicola Aulianas
from Fernet Branca, you know,

from Flatelli Branca.
And we were talking about like

the trainings, for example, for
Fernet Branca, you know, and he

was saying like after a
training, there are three types

of people, you know, the people
that were drinking the brand and

continue to love drinking the
brand, but now the understanding

a little bit better, you know
why they like it.

The people that, you know,
didn't like it and now they like

it because now they see from a
different perspective.

And then the people that didn't
drink it and don't drink it

anymore, you know, and they keep
not drinking it, but they are

educated now.
They can put words to their

feelings on why they don't like
it.

And then they will be respectful
when explaining, you know, why

they don't like it.
But then they will maybe

understand.
OK, Felicia, you are the type

that likes bitter stuff in this
case.

So probably, you know, I haven't
have a sip of this this one

because you will love it.
But then I know for whom to give

what.
And I, and I do these

experiments myself, honestly,
you know, like I, I know what to

give to taste to people when
they come over for dinner, when

we sit at the bar, you know,
because if I know something

about them, I bridge from this
taste profiles and, and, and I

will never give you something
that I know you're not going to

enjoy.
But also, you know, if you have

never tasted whiskey, why should
I give you a super pitted Isle?

Then you will never drink it
anymore.

Like why should I give you a,
you know, an Octomor or whatever

you know, like to you should
have this one.

You should have this one, you
know, like it's about

understanding what is for whom
you know and.

You know a more educated world
is a better world.

Not for everyone.
Consumers, Brands, Bartenders.

Absolutely, absolutely,
absolutely.

And do you think that there is
this kind of like getting stuck

within their own macro category
for brands?

You know what, what what I'm
talking about is the fact that

I'm a big fan of creating
categories now category design,

if you're familiar with the
term.

So it's like create a category,
don't create a brand.

Not the the Aperol Spritz
example that we had before is a

typical example, you know, like
they created a category that

didn't exist, you know the
spritz category now like

everybody talks about it, but it
didn't exist before, you know.

So how can you as a brand start
from that idea that you said

before, whether it's a liquid
idea and other kind of idea and

make it so that your brand is
basically the representation of

that new, let's call it original
category or bottom up category

that you have just created and
you are just creating?

Yeah, interesting.
So I have a bit of a

controversial point of view on
this.

I'll share with you my theory,
my thought.

I think we have to be careful
when we say creating category or

a micro category.
The reason for this is because

again, coming from an educator
point of view, I always tend to

refer to or relate category to
again the law.

So to me, what apparel Spritz
and spritz has done was to

create a trend, a long lasting
trend.

Apparently.
However, there is no category

called spritz category by the
law, you know, so that's what I

always refer to.
That said, you know, I think you

have a very valid point.
And the best example for this

is, of course, spritz.
Yes, with apparel spritz.

But also if you look at what
Hendrix has done, some people go

to a bar and they say, can I
have the cucumber gin?

You know what that means when
people say that, that means that

your branding was so strong over
the years that, you know, some

people, this sound might sound
like a negative, but it's

actually a positive that some
people just associate your gene

with a particular vegetable, you
know, and they just go to the

bar and order it and they might
not even remember the name.

How crazy is that?
You know, that means that you've

done a top, top notch marketing
campaign over the years.

And to me, that's, that's
success.

You know, I mean, and what did
they do really?

Now, I don't know about the
history on how they created

Andrix, but I lived in the UK
and I know that when I lived in

the UK more than 10 years ago.
But I think this is a, a

tradition that has been going on
for longer than that in the UK.

Whenever you go to somebody's
house or even when you went to a

bar back in the days, they
served you water with cucumber

inside.
It was a thing that I

experienced very often in UK.
Some arts still do it nowadays.

So what what Hendrix?
All Hendrix did was, you know,

take something that was already
popular in the UK and just, you

know, create a gene inspired by
that concept and flavors.

Yeah, yeah.
And I and I don't, I don't know

if that that was actually the
case, but for sure it

capitalized on a fertile ground
because this is what I always

say, you know, like you have to
create the perfect storm, you

know, to in order to have a
brand that is succeeding.

And then of course there is a
lot of like relentless execution

in explaining the cucumber and
so on.

But then, for example, you know,
I work with the brand as well.

And one of the things that I
always say to people and

salespeople, distributors and so
on is like, don't just explain

to a bartender, don't just bitch
about the cucumber.

You know, like don't just say
you should put the cucumber

because this is the perfect
serve.

You know, explain why they
should have the cucumber and why

that serve helps to charge
consumer the appropriate price

for that gene versus A
mainstream regular kind of gin.

Tell them the consequences of
not doing that, not because the

brand ambassador is going there
and slap their hand, but because

then people are going to stop
ordering it.

Because if you're charging them
more and then you are giving

them Hendrix with a slice of
lemon or a slice of lime and a

sheet titonic, then they're
going to default back to the

other one that is much cheaper.
I'm a big fan of managing

expectations now because I've
had a lot of fights in my life.

So I want to avoid this
confrontation by, as you

rightfully said, talking facts.
You know, let's talk, let's stop

emotions.
Like Felicia has a point, Chris

has a point, but let's talk
facts.

What is the thing?
It's it's about both winning.

It's about, you know, a
negotiation.

Now there's there's this guy
that I follow, Chris Voss, the

FBI negotiator.
I love, I love him.

You know, he talks about the
fact that negotiations are not,

there's no winner and loser.
You know, there is two parties

against the problem.
It's not you against me.

It's we have a problem and we
need to negotiate on solving it.

No.
And this is what I feel a lot of

brands do wrong in the sense
that, you know, like they don't

look at it kind of like in a
septic way.

They, you know, they go there
with their full emotions and

their love and their previous
life.

And then they try to, to, to,
to, you know, to hit the head of

the bang, the head on the wall
and they will never find a

solution.
So, so that that's why I'm a big

fan of this taste profile
bridging.

But your point was was
fantastic, like what you were

saying about.
Look, I don't think I

personally, again, this is my
point of view, right?

I, I don't think we should go
too crazy.

The reason for this is because
the spirits industry nowadays

and that's a fact consumers
mostly and many professionals

are already confused, right?
So I always believe that if we

also, first of all, I don't
think again, this needs to be

put into context based on what
category and and what, what

style of spirit.
But I don't think we need to go

crazy.
I think we need to understand

where we are, where we come,
where we came from.

How do we maintain that in an
interesting, creative and

playful way?
Just think about this, right?

You go out on the street and you
pick 100 people, random 100

people and you ask them, all
right, So what do you think is

the major factor that affects
the style of a single malt

Scotch?
What do you think most of them

will tell you the oak, the type
of oak that they use X American

ex Shetty or whatever else, you
know.

And yes, it is one of the
factors.

But in reality, there are, you
know, 234 if we really want to

go nerdy into it, 10 different
factors that differentiate the

style of a Scotch, you know,
even just when it comes to the

oak.
So, you know, there is much more

that people, the regular
consumer is not aware of, you

know, and then it's my job as an
educator to go and make sure

that people understand these
things so they can choose back.

And, and I, I often talk about
pragmatic storytelling versus

the fluffy storytelling, you
know, because I feel that the

best way is actually to give a
short answer in a training and

then articulate on that, you
know, but what I feel is that

many brands, they go the other
way around, you know, they take

the long route and they run out
of fuel at the end.

No, and they forget to say
what's the most important thing

to discuss in that brand?
No, And to, to your point about

the mistakes is like, I
remember, like when I was

working in beer, I've worked
there for many years when I was

talking to my friends or my
parents or, you know, it was

like, what's the, what's the
thing about beer?

You know, what is beer made of?
And they were telling me hops,

you know, and it's like, what
the hell, You know, hops is the

final thing you add to give the
aroma, the bitterness.

And I always say, you know, it's
like saying that the most

important thing of spaghetti
carbonara is the pepper.

Exactly the same.
You know, it's like, fuck, you

know, what about the Guanchale?
You know, what about the

picorino and the parmigiana and
and so on.

Let's crack on this thing that I
mentioned before, like about the

storytelling of the the fluffy
and the pragmatic 1.

So I have this feeling and I, I
use smiling already because you,

I think, you know where I want
to get, you know, like it's this

thing that gets me a little bit,
let's call it allergic, you

know, on stereotypical brand
storytelling.

You know, you mentioned it at
the very beginning talking about

whatever the water of the river,
the mountain, the Amalfi Coast

and all this kind of very
stereotypical thing.

So if it's an Italian brand,
there is the picture of the

Amalfi goes and there is the
short guy on the boat whistling

and having a pizza in the hand
and and whatever.

Or if we go on mezcal and
tequila and all the agave

spirits there is the photo of
whoever guy or girl hugging

they.
Need to have a mustache.

They need to have the mustache,
they need to be Sweatsy in the

field.
You know, the the agave farmer

or the Himador, all these kind
of things, you know, that don't

add anything because you're
just, you know, we go back to

the only your own kind of micro
category without talking about

micro gathering from a legal
perspective.

Let's clarify like you
rightfully said, but within

that, you know, like try to be
different in a proper way, you

know, rather than anything else.
What is your opinion on this?

Yeah.
So my opinion is that the Amalfi

Ghost, Italian brands, Amalfi
Ghost and so on is not

necessarily a bad thing.
It becomes a bad thing the

moment that all the other brands
start doing the same thing,

because then you don't stand out
and this becomes stereotypical.

It becomes boring, it becomes
fluffy as as you mentioned it

earlier.
The question is how do you stand

out?
Perhaps, you know, you could

argue that one way to stand out
would be to yes, picture, you

know, let's say I was making an
agave.

A way to send out would be yes,
to picture the guy with the

moustache working in the agave
field with a COA, for example.

But then have that, but also,
you know, do everything, mention

everything we've been talking
about.

Give me an expectation of the
liquids.

So that plus that, then, then
you're already doing something a

little different.
Perhaps it's all about how do

you differentiate yourself.
As I said, the problem is when

everybody starts doing the same
things and starts talking about

the same things, just with
different words.

That's that's what, that's when
the problem starts.

There isn't one general way or
method to differentiate yourself

because you need to analyze what
category, what market, what

style of liquid, what budget,
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

I think the the key or a good
start would already be to get

together into a room.
Someone who is an expert of the

industry, not self claimed
expert, not self claimed expert.

Someone who is and you know, the
fact that you've been 30 years

in the industry doesn't mean
anything.

He needs to be on paper, yes,
someone who has studied spirits

and who has spent some time in
the industry, but they need to

have it on paper, all right, and
someone who has studied

marketing.
So put them together and perhaps

the producer as well, and put
them all together into a room,

you know, and then see what
happens.

But the very first step is to
get competent people in the same

room to discuss what is going to
be the messaging, what is going

to be the communication, what is
going to be the branding of the

product we're making.
And I really like what you're

saying because it's, it's, it
goes back to your previous point

about the idea now, you know, I
feel that some brands probably

when they are struggling, they
are probably lacking the

overarching idea that gives them
that kind of like jumping left

and right.
And then it's like, oh, they're

doing this, they're doing that.
Because ultimately, you know, in

marketing terms, they say, you
know, it's, it's, is it ownable,

you know, do you have that
thing, Is it ownable for that

brand to have that kind of
territory and that kind of

messaging?
Because if it's not, then people

are just coming in the, the, the
category just, you just created.

And then they will just do
copycats of what you are

ultimately doing now.
So that is the, that is the

tricky thing.
And I want to talk about about

advocacy now, about advocacy
trainings because we, we touched

upon it like in, you know, in
the beginning when we were

talking about, you know, sales
representatives, there is always

like this kind of like broken
record.

You know, we do this to, to to
triple fermented, triple

distill, triple this, triple
that, you know, but I feel that

a lot of brands don't, you know.
They use the category I'm

talking about, the macro
category, to just bitch on other

brands rather than building the
knowledge of that category, you

know?
So what I mean is that I have a

whiskey brand.
Instead of explaining what

whiskey means and the actual
regulation and then what kind of

route we take in our
distillation and in our

maturation and ingredient
selection and so on.

You know, I just like talk about
my brand and what we do is

perfect.
What we do in our distillery is

the reference.
And then all the other

distillers are taking shortcuts
and blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah.
I'm being the advocate, the

devil's advocate of, you know,
like on my own question, you

know, like it's like for them
it's like, OK, I've got €100,000

of budget.
I don't want to spend my budget

in educating people about the
category.

And then they're probably going
to drink another brand.

I want to educate them about me
and myself and my family and I

don't want to waste my time, but
it's for me.

It's a short sighted kind of
approach.

What do you think about this?
I agree with you.

So when we were in Slovakia,
which is full of amazing

professionals, by the way, I was
in an event and there was a guy

who came to me.
He worked for a gym brand.

And he's like, you know, this,
this is how we do it.

We do it.
You know, the exactly what you

said.
You know, this happened

recently.
That's why I'm bringing this up.

And it's very interesting.
And then he started talking

about how they produce it.
And I was a big fan of the brand

as well until this guy is like,
yeah, yeah, you know, unlike

these other brands and he
mentioned it where they use

syrups.
I was like, do you mean like

concentrated essences?
And he was talking about a long

and dry style gene, which by law
long and dry gene means that

it's a one shot distillation.
All the botanicals into the same

still distilled ones cannot be
flavored with anything.

Only water can be added and a
very small amount of sugar is

like 0.01% of the volume.
So, and many producers don't

even use it so.
And let's clarify that is not

doesn't have to be made in
London like many people think.

Made in London.
No, but I I said to this guy and

then we started talking right?
And then so he told me this.

I was like, how do you know they
do that?

Have you been there?
Have they done it in front of

you?
He's like, no, no, no, no, no.

And then I was thinking to
myself, I was like, why would

you even bring this up?
You know, like, why would you

say anything like that?
You know, it's it's an event,

it's a branded event.
Why would you talk bad about a

competitor?
And clearly you don't know what

you're talking about.
Why would you do that?

And also, what are you able to
detect what you just said?

If you tasted these brands that
you're referring to, would you

be able to detect it?
Because you know you wouldn't.

You definitely wouldn't.
So I mean, what is the point of

all of this?
You know why?

I was working with a brand
myself and we signed a

sponsorship with William Reed's,
which is the company behind the

World 50 Best Bars and
Restaurants.

And they're currently one of the
sponsors at the moment.

And I remember when we signed
the contract with them, I was

like, OK, so it's time to go
around some countries, you know,

to announce the partnership and
let's go with a cool educational

concept.
I was already an educator back

then.
And then when I sat down to to

create this educational concept,
it was a branded educational

concept.
I was like, how am I going to

create this?
Let's say.

So I started looking at what
everybody else was doing.

And that's when I learned that
pretty much 90%, if not more of,

you know, the people around me
were representing brands in many

in different countries and not
only in Norway, they were doing

very similar things.
I was like, OK, let's stand out.

So I'll tell you what I did.
All right, please.

I created an educational program
which was about two hours long.

First thing that you go to any
marketing departments, they'll

tell you 2 hours is too much,
Two hours is too much.

Two hours is not too much if you
know what you're doing.

So if during the seminar, if
during the testing, you are

interactive, you let people
talk, you ask questions, you

make people think interactive.
We in the educator world, we

call it the sandwich effect.
Yes, one stupid joke, one

serious note, one stupid joke,
one serious note, one question,

one serious note.
You know the sandwich effect.

So first of all, it was two
hours long.

Second of all, in two hours of
seminar I spoke about the brand,

1015 minutes Max.
The rest, you know what I did?

I spoke about some of the
factors that create style and

quality within Gene general
factors.

And then I taught people how to
assess the aromatic intensity,

which is something they could
have taken and bring outside and

use with, you know, with any
spirit they wanted.

But then I was always referring
whatever point I was making to

the brand.
Quick example, how do you

measure the aromatic intensity?
So if you can smell it from

here, then it's pronounced from
the the height of the mouth,

then it's medium from the height
of your nose, then it's it's

light.
General way to describe this.

Yes, I was like, OK, so where
can you smell the spirit now?

And what they were tasting was
the brand that was sponsoring

the event of.
Course.

Right.
So in the end of the day it all

fall back in that.
So this this is what I call

indirect marketing.
Exactly, because I mean, it's

like, it's the not like what
some people call it like the non

selling selling now.
And you know, like it's, it's

ultimately giving information to
people, you know, because

otherwise, like if you don't
give a first of all, like

ammunition in the sense of like
social currents, you know,

something that they can sell
back to their friends during

dinner, anything like this or
other things that you know,

because they already come in
there with with thinking this is

going to be a branded event.
This is going to be a

brainwashing from Felicia, you
know, let's get out as soon as

possible, you know, and then you
need to get them involved into

this like shit, you know, like
so really like 20 minutes in and

he mentioned the brand once, you
know, let me stay, let me carry

on in this kind of conversation.
But there, there is a lot of

like misconception about this.
And you know, like I seen myself

honestly with my podcast and you
know, they're like, you know,

but why do you do it?
Why is it free?

And I don't, I don't have
sponsors.

I don't charge people.
Then so be it, you know, you

know, for me, like I'm doing
something that is first of all

for me because I'm learning from
this kind of conversation, like

having it with you and I'm
giving it out to, to people.

And then maybe someday some
people will contact me as they

are, you know, but for one that
buys something, you know, there

are like hundreds that don't buy
anything.

But I don't care, you know,
like, because I do it because

I'm passionate about it.
And I feel often that's the the

issue that that we are lacking
passionate people in the

industry.
You know, there's a lot of

passionate people, but there is
a lot of people that are not

passionate and then they ruin
the rest of the industry for the

other people that are
passionate.

And then it becomes this kind of
issue that then it becomes like,

OK, like don't let's not waste
money on some something that

actually makes sense.
Let's just stick the box and do

stuff for that.
That is paying back tomorrow.

I think it's actually worse than
that.

I think it's they don't realize
look, because now I gave the,

you know, a possible solution,
right, based on my own

experience, right?
And I, you know, I said, you

know, this type of, you know,
tastings, it really worked.

It was really successful.
You know, in fact, I did more,

more than I expected to do.
And the reason for this is

because it was different from
what anybody else was doing.

That's the solution.
But now let's talk about the

issue.
The issue is that first of all,

it's, it's tough to work in a,
in a corporate, you know, the

bigger the companies, the more
complicated it is because it

needs to go through 1,000,000
people.

You know, it takes time.
It's not always that easy,

right?
Second of all, some of the

people who are in the top, they
still believe and usually these

are the marketing people who
decide what has to be done and,

and how some of these people
need to understand that the

timings are changed.
It's 2024.

There is Internet, the fact that
you founded your brand in early

1800s.
Seriously, you on a Sunday, you

make me drive half an hour to
come to this venue for your

tasting and that's all you're
going to talk about?

I could have stayed at home and
read about this on Google.

All right, So how do you
differentiate yourself in an era

in a time where there are so
many informations available?

Absolutely.
How?

By talking about things that
people can't find on Google.

Or they can perhaps, but they're
confusing and they're lose

terms, you know, lose concepts.
If you talk about distillation

strength versus aromatic
intensity, that's a fact.

And yet it's hard to find
something about that on any

brand website.
You know, it also goes back to

the launching in different
markets or having every, every

having different campaigns in
different markets.

You know, like nowadays, you
know, there is the Internet,

there is Instagram, there's
pictures, the stuff, you know,

like I remember in a previous
company I was working, I won't

mention it, but you know, there
were some campaigns made for

like ATL campaigns made for a
country.

And then it's like, no, but in
that country that we're

starting, we are launching the
the other campaign that was the

older one, because that country
is not ready for this campaign.

And I was like, what the fuck
is?

Are you, are you serious?
You know, this campaign is on

YouTube.
You know what you mean?

What do you mean that that
country is not ready for that

campaign?
You know, like nowadays, you

know, stuff that was happening
because it was made on cinemas

and television, you know, like
you cannot do it anymore like

this.
And to your right point, you

know, like there is a lot of
information about stuff that

doesn't give me anything apart
from, you know, like I've seen

these exact things on your
website.

And now, you know, like I had, I
had to listen to you to

basically read for me your
website.

And let's let's you know, one of
the last, you know, the closing

questions like on, you know,
because it's very interesting

for me, you know, like you are
the the AGIA world class winner

2024 in Norway.
And it's, you know, it's one of

the best competitions out there
now for brand advocacy, you

know, without trying to, to be
kind to yeah, just like it, it's

a fact.
It's a fact that it's, you know,

nobody else is investing that
much time, money and so on.

Also the consistency they had
during the years.

And, and the consistency as as
well, then you may like it or

dislike it, but that's another
point.

But you know, I think that's
helping a lot the industry to

develop and to make it
aspirational.

Not that, you know, we talked
earlier about the flip side of

that.
That is a little bit like the,

the, the Barber shops trends or
the bartender trends.

And you know, like the too many
people think they can go faster

into a, a career, you know, like
without knowing that they have

to put in blood, sweat and tears
now.

But it's it's helping the
industry in developing and

having like more and more people
involved.

But what can we do?
Like in, you know, like, I feel

that there is still like a big
gap between the the top bars

that are for which, you know,
these bartenders, if you take

world class as an example.
But any competition, I have the

feeling that it's always the
same kind of people competing

for these competitions, not
because, you know, in the

market, if you remove, you know,
UK and US that are they have

like huge cocktail scene.
You know, the other countries in

which the Cocker scene is still
developing, they're still in an

embryonic kind of stage.
What, what I'm trying to get to

is the, how do we get to the
next level out outside the top

bars, the 50 best bars kind of
thing.

And we get to more regular
mainstream bars in which, you

know, like we can really make a
difference and have a proper,

you know, because they're still
like the you.

You get this very high quality
cocktail bars.

And then there is the shitty gin
and Sonic with two ice cubes in

and tonic from 1 1/2 liter
bottle open yesterday.

So the way I.
See it, Chris, again, this might

be controversial is that I think
we need to change very little.

So you see I meditate on this
right.

I think people who work in this
industry, we are stuck in our

own bubble sometimes in a way
that on social media, who do you

follow?
Do you follow the pub around the

streets or do you follow the
Connaught Bar and the Duke's Bar

and so on?
So you only follow these

accounts, right?
And you know, so we're locked

into this bubble with this high
end places thinking that that's

the whole world, you know,
that's what it is in the end of

the day.
Look, when I was in Prague years

ago, I enjoyed going to a dirty
pub and having a pint of beer.

And you know what, these pubs
make money.

Maybe the gin and tonic is not
great, but they have great live

music.
It's OK not to be a 5 star hotel

bar or not to be on the list.
You know, I think the world

needs that as well.
We need clubs, we need all of

this.
I don't think we should, you

know, change anything there.
I wouldn't expect, you know, a

pub to provide me a 5 star
service.

That will be weird.
That said, that said, how do we

bring more awareness of liquids
on education, on products?

That's a valid point.
That's a more valid point, I

think, which is not necessarily
about raising the level.

It's just about bringing more
awareness and then let them

decide.
Because in the end of the day,

ultimately the people who work
in these places need to decide

if they're happy where they are,
or they want to step up or they

want to step down or they want
to get out of the industry.

You know, I think there are many
interesting things to talk about

when it comes to this.
I don't have a solution.

The more the solution I have,
it's banal, which is education.

You know, that's the only
solution I have, which is quite

banal.
Let let me just change subject

for one, one second only.
Look at the UK.

Look at the UK.
What happened in the UK in the

past years is that many people
left the UK who were working in

bars, restaurants, you know,
high end great talents left the

UK and the main concern UK.
But all over the world really

many people have left this
industry and the main concern of

most business owners or managers
is how do I find good people?

Well, my friend, the way I see
it, you should be focusing on

how do I keep the people that
stayed with me.

Why don't we focus on how do we
keep the people here?

How do we keep our stuff happy
so they stay with us for a long

time.
I know Alessandro Palazzi,

Alessandro Palazzi is the best
bartender that has ever lived

for me.
And Alessandro has worked at

Duke's Bar in London.
Alessandro is 68, something like

that, and he has worked at
Duke's Bar in London for the

past 15 years, if not more.
He stuff the people who have

been more ES, people who have
been working with him for 1015

years.
You don't find that anymore.

Instead of worrying how do we
find good people, how we find

man?
What your bar manager wants to

leave?
How do you keep your bar manager

happy?
Worry about that.

If I were a pub, instead of
worrying how to be into the 50

best bars list, I will worry
about OK, do I know the

difference between a Prosecco
and a champagne?

Is my stuff happy?
You know?

Are we using the right soap to
clean the floor?

I I think it's, you know, your
answer in the end, like it's the

correct one on the, on the fact
of about education and you know,

and we go back to giving and to
educating and giving something

giving up the value, you know,
because it's, it's also about KP

is it's one of my battles as
well.

No, I, I was making on a
previous episode.

I was making this example about
phone operators.

No, you know, I called my phone
operator and I asked them for a

discount and I said, guys, I'm,
I'm paying too much, you know, I

see, you know, like it's, it's
cheaper on the other side, you

know, like I don't want to have
all the thing like change the

router, change the things change
the same, you know, like I don't

want to go through this.
Just give me a bit of a discount

match that.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

we cannot do it.
Then I go to the other operator

and then I get a phone back from
my previous operator that wants

to give me the price that it's,
it's going to be even more

expensive for them because
they're going to give me a

higher because the other
operator was already cheaper.

So they to match it, they're
going to go cheaper than

cheaper, you know, but you know
why that is because they are

incentivized on the wrong KP is
because they are not

incentivized on retention.
They are incentivized on

acquisition.
So if they instead of matching

the net new customers, they are
incentivized on new customers.

If they gain 10 customers but
lose 5, they get the bonus

because they got 10.
They don't say 10 -. 5 is five,

they say 10.
And this is the stupid thing.

And this is exactly what you
said about bars.

You know, it's always about
looking at the other thing.

If your people are living, you
know, incentivize people who are

staying, you know, rather than,
you know, trying to find a way

to recruit new people.
And then you make them live

anyway.
Because even if I gave you the

magic stick and I gave you
Felicia to work with your bar

tomorrow, he's going to leave in
a month.

Because you just fail at
incentivizing retention.

This is the thing that that is
crucially important is about,

you know, KPIs and having the
right KPIs on on things because

then it goes back to all the
things we've discussed today,

you know, like about, you know,
like the big bosses, you know,

having the wrong expectations is
about the brand advocacy

training that is wrong because
it's judged on length instead of

being judged on outcome.
And then it's, you know, they

want to get how many of those
people attending that, you know,

both an extra bottle the next
day should you know, you don't

do it that way.
And this is what we tend to

forget that these brands and
especially like old brands that

we've mentioned, you know,
they've been there for 10/20/50

hundred 200 years.
Some of them, you know, imagine

the cumulative effect of the
advertising spend, ATL promotion

discount and everything that
they put into the market.

They are basically like cruising
ships that even if they switch

off the engine, the ship takes,
you know, miles and miles,

nautical miles to stop, you
know, So you know, you cannot

compare yourself if you just
started today because the

effects of marketing investments
are visible years down the line,

not months.
Down the line, you know, and

this is the thing that the, the
more we, we understand that.

And I, I love what you said
previously about the marketing

guy and the technical guy and
the expert, you know, like

really getting together to nail
something that actually makes

sense for many parties.
And that's probably like those

are the brands that are actually
successful in the market, you

know, right now or they have
been in the in the past and

there will be in the future.
So Philly shit, let me I'm aware

of the time.
We went a little bit long, but

it was super interesting.
I would stay for another hour,

but I want both of us to have
lunch.

Tell us, how can people find
you, Find your company and you

know and be in touch with you.
Don't reach out to me, guys.

I'm not a nice guy.
Just don't reach out to me.

So not on Instagram.
Most people reach out to me on

Instagram anyways, but I have a
website which is

www.sestosensoacademy.com and
you know, I have the license to

teach courses in Norway, but I
get requests from out of Norway

as well.
I can teach courses out of

Norway as well as long as
they're private courses, like,

you know, not advertised.
I like to post videos on

Instagram sometimes.
If you really want to go into

education and like really
talking about liquids and you

know, like the taste profile and
all these kind of things, like

on this part of the of the
business, Felicia is the is the

go to person because it's very
interesting and very simple to

understand and to follow.
So I really, I really recommend

So Felicia.
It was a real pleasure.

Gracia Mila.
Hopefully we we meet again soon

somewhere around the world to to
have a drink or two together.

Yes, hopefully as late as
possible.

No, I'm joking.
Let's meet soon again, and ever

and ever, Negroni.
Thank you.

Thank you, Felicia Chao.
That's all for today, remember

that this is a two-part episode
68 and 69, so feel free to

listen to both.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, please leave a
review, share it with friends

and remember that brands are
built bottom U.