SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI:
People fear repercussions.
And I've had so many of
my friends come to me
and say on a legal basis,
if I tell my work that this
has happened, they know
I'm trying to have a child,
are they going to
hold it against me?
Can they let me go?
And unfortunately, I've
seen it go both ways.
And now I've seen it start to
get better in organizations,
where that isn't the case.
Where it's a supportive
environment, and that individual
is given time off to
deal with their issues.
ANNOUNCER: Welcome to
Learning in Action,
your trusted source of
new research, insights,
and practical advice on
critical issues in business,
presented by the Ivey Academy.
In today's episode, we're
diving into a topic that
impacts nearly
every professional,
whether directly or indirectly.
Gender and family
dynamics in leadership.
Balancing career progression
with family responsibilities
is challenging.
And it often comes
with unique pressures,
especially as workplace
expectations and family roles
evolve.
Today, we'll explore how
gender roles and caregiving
responsibilities
shape the leadership
paths of many professionals,
impacting everything from career
growth to work-life balance.
To unpack these themes, we're
joined by an exceptional panel.
Sabrina Kumar Ceccarelli, Vice
President and Assistant General
Counsel at Lightspeed Commerce.
Eva Salem, Senior Vice
President of Marketing and Brand
at Canadian Tire Corporation.
And Janice Byrne,
Assistant Professor
in Entrepreneurship
here at Ivey.
Each of them brings a unique
perspective and wealth
of experience in balancing
high-impact careers
with family roles in advocating
for more inclusive workplaces.
In this episode, our
guests will discuss
how caregiving roles intersect
with career advancement,
the ways organizations can
better support caregivers,
and the leadership
shifts needed to foster
an inclusive environment.
Here's your host, Brian
Benjamin, with today's guests.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Janice,
I want to get started
with exploring sort of the
broad intersection of caregiving
and career progression.
And so from your
perspectives, what
sorts of caregiving
responsibilities
impact career growth and
leadership opportunities
in today's rapidly evolving
and ever changing workplace?
JANICE BYRNE: Absolutely.
We've got so many
different interpretations
and understandings
of caregiving.
And so we've got perhaps
like new mothers returning
to the workplace.
We've got working
parents maybe who
are living in cities where they
don't have family support, maybe
new cities, or maybe
they're expatriates.
We've got freshly divorcees,
people figuring out
new living arrangements.
And then there's an
awful lot of people
who are involved in elder care
or caring for people at home,
maybe with a serious illness.
A quarter of the Canadians
over the age of 45 who provide
care to a family member
or a close friend
with serious illness.
So lots of different
types of caregivers.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Yeah.
And thank you for that context.
The care extends
the full continuum.
We always talk about
going full circle, right?
And many are not just having
small children at home,
but also elder care and
others within that portfolio.
So let's go to you next, Eva.
I'm going to give
you a quick heads up
so you can think about this.
And so new mothers
returning to the workplace.
Eva, can you share with
us sort of what the return
to work experience was like,
especially with a US lens on it,
if you will?
EVA SALEM: Yeah, I was
working in the States
during that phase of my life.
I'll start by saying we've made
so much progress between when
I had my kids and what
is currently happening.
It was harsh, I will say.
It was literally like
eight to 10 weeks.
You came back, it
was full throttle.
It was five days a week.
I worked in the
cosmetics industry.
So it was largely females.
And it was a lot of very
exhausted women trying
to re-acclimate when their
bodies and their lives
were really just
turned upside down.
If I compare that reality
to what I'm seeing now,
I am encouraged.
I do feel like we've
made a lot of progress.
I think it's much more
acceptable professionally
to take the time that you need.
COVID in particular,
I would say,
eased that transition even
more for new moms returning.
Yeah, my experience, it
was a very difficult time.
There really was not much
support around it as well,
like nursing rooms and
that kind of stuff.
Even female groups
within organizations
didn't really exist
for the most part.
So you had your peer group,
and you kind of relied
on your peer group, but
there was nothing systemic
or structural in any
of the corporations
at the time that was there to
support women during this really
difficult time.
We've come a long way.
I think that's very encouraging.
But obviously there's
still work to be done.
And I'd be curious in Sabrina's
take on it with a one-year-old.
You're living at
real-time right now.
And even the paternity
side of things,
that stuff did not happen
when I was having my kids.
So it's an interesting
contrast, I think, probably
to Sabrina's perspective.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: And thank
you for sharing that, Eva,
and also shining a spotlight
on some of the progress
and where it has been made.
And clearly, we'll
dig into progress
that has not yet
been made and where
we need to go and
hopefully into the future.
But Sabrina, why don't you--
you've got a pretty full
and active house in addition
to a pretty full and
active career right now.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: Yeah.
And it's always
such a cruel irony
that your career
seems to take off
at the same time you're
expected to raise
these super young children
that need you the most.
So I am coming to
the last month.
Actually, November 2 will be the
one month mark of an 18-month
maternity leave.
This was a leave I took
with my third child.
And it has been an
amazing experience.
It's kind of
compounded by the fact
that I have these two
other children at home.
So in addition to being able to
spend the time with the baby as
needed, I've also been
able to really indulge
in those other two children,
where I'm not always
able to do that.
The anecdote that I'd give
you, and it's not a great one,
but my job is very demanding.
And I took off like two weeks
before my scheduled C-section.
And I did a couple of
things with my kids.
We were making little
arts and crafts.
And my son, he looked at me.
I literally had done
like two things.
This was the second
thing I'd done.
And he said, mom, you're
doing so much with us now.
And it was
heartbreaking, but also
kind of like a reality check
moment of, my goodness,
my time is going with
these young kids,
and I'm not even seeing it.
I'm not even able to catch up to
realize that, hold on, how mired
in my corporate world am I?
So part of that
informs my decision
to take the 18 months, because
I felt like it was time
spent with all three.
And I have worked for a boss
at one point who said to me,
at some point in my career,
what's $10,000 in the span
of a career?
And I would offer that to women.
What is six more--
women or whoever
the caregiver is.
What is six more months
in the span of a career?
For me, I work in tech.
It was going to be a chaotic
and challenging environment
if I had left only a three-month
leave or a four-month leave.
Things move so fast.
So me coming back at 18 months
versus 12 months versus eight
months, I felt
like the challenge
was going to be the same.
And so I took the full time.
And we are so lucky in
Canada to have that time.
Because I have
worked for companies
with American employees,
where women are going back
at six months with C-section
stitches unhealed still.
And so should you have
the financial means
and be able to structure
your life in that way,
I would offer women that
same kind of question.
Is, what is six more months in
the span of a career if it's
something you want to do?
And when I was on the social
recently, one thing I said
was we are often
fearful of losing
the momentum of our
career, but the success
that has so often gotten us
to where we are is within us.
It's that skill set.
It's what we've applied.
It's the kind of
interpersonal skills
that we've developed from
our education and experience.
And those things can be deployed
in multiple environments.
So I went back to a
job after my second
that wasn't working for me.
I could sense it wasn't going
to get to where I wanted to be.
And so that's when I
moved to Lightspeed.
And it was the best move
I made for my career.
So I would really
encourage caregivers
to have that faith in
themselves and be fearless
kind of when you're
reentering the workforce.
Because if you are confident
and you are hardworking,
that those opportunities
will come your way.
They just may be unexpected,
but that can be a great thing.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Oh, I
love the word fearless.
Yeah, I think you
touched on something
that I think so many have had.
As a young voice can really
create a big sort of aha
moment in terms of
time and attention.
And yeah, I really like your
framing it over a 30-plus year
career, right, is
a moment in time.
And it's not to diminish the
moment in time and how crucial
that is, but sometimes trying
to toggle that with something
a little bit longer.
I want to shift and
take the conversation
around the role of
the organization.
I think all three of you hit on
some really important pieces,
which, what can we
control as humans,
ourselves as humans
working within the context
of an organization
in many cases?
And how do organizations better
support leaders, and especially
senior leaders, those with
big roles and big portfolios,
balancing sort of the
caregiving responsibilities?
And that could be
a child caregiving,
it could be parent caregiving.
For many, it could be
both, and getting it
at all sides of the
continuum, if you will.
Especially at sort
of that age where
career is often hitting a
stride and things are humming.
So we'll talk about what
organizations can do,
and then I do want to
talk about what does it
mean for early career
and new mothers that are
at different stages as well.
So, Eva, I'm going to bring your
voice into the conversation here
first.
EVA SALEM: On the
maternity leave side,
I think organizations are
fairly progressive at this point
in understanding the
need to retain talent,
to keep female future
leaders at the table.
The cost of losing
that kind of talent
and retraining and
whatever, I think
there's a level of
awareness and action
and structural and
systemic change that has
taken place, which is great.
On the other parts of
things, like caring
for elderly parents
and that side of stuff,
I think it's still
early days corporately.
There really is not a lot
of acknowledgment outside
of specific teams and
manager-employee relationships,
at the larger, more macro
level, enterprise-wide,
when it comes to care, other
than I would say, maternity
leave.
So I think that's an area
that definitely still needs
a lot of attention.
I think it tends to also
really affect senior leaders,
because you tend to be
a little more further
along in your
career, your parents
are a little bit
older, et cetera.
So it's an interesting
conundrum where it's actually
the people who should be
setting the policies who are
being affected the most by it.
So I think those
are conversations
that are beginning to happen.
I know here at Canadian
Tire, for instance,
you go from challenge
to challenge,
whether it's maternity or
kids' school needs or anxiety
or special learning
needs to elderly parents.
Like, there is always things
outside of your work life
that is happening.
And corporations who are
able to adjust and support
their talent through
that are the ones
that ultimately will
thrive, both financially
and just in terms of having
the best talent at the table.
So currently, I
would say a lot of it
is one-off conversations
and specific to teams
and specific to
manager-employee relationships,
and that shouldn't be the case.
There should be more process.
Even sick leaves, I have to say.
Unless you yourself
are sick, there's
very little leave support,
systemic ingrained
leave support for when you are
a caregiver for someone who
is sick.
And I think those are
all areas that are still
areas that need to be addressed
from a systemic corporate
perspective.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: You hit on
something really important,
which is the broader
organizational role.
And yes, there needs
to be the one to one
and personal conversations,
but ideally, that's
happening within the
context of something broader
and maybe more well understood.
Janice, I'd love some of your
perspectives on this question.
JANICE BYRNE: To build on what
both Eva and Sabrina said,
but Eva, when we spoke
about this, the change that
needs to take
place, I guess there
is structural or systemic
things that can be done.
We also need the culture of
the organization to match that.
So that these things
might be in place,
but we have to see that there's
a supportive culture of when
we avail of these supports.
And I also think the one
thing that's really important
is just this whole
notion of disclosure,
because we're still operating
the ideal worker, right?
And sometimes there
can be a stigma,
there can be like a fear of if
I disclose, because whatever
the challenge is that
I'm dealing with,
whether it's juggling
trying to get
my kids the timing
with the childcare
or whether it's looking after
a sick child or a sick relative
at home, or a sick parent,
or an elderly parent,
or a close friend.
When we have these things
going on in our lives,
we're not always--
we don't always
feel like we're in a situation
where we can disclose
and actually talk to, either
talk to our manager about it,
or if we're in a
senior leadership role,
to even talk to our
subordinates about it.
And so we want to think about a
situation where we can actually
create organizations
where there--
we talk about
psychological safety,
but it's important
for so many reasons.
But that is one reason.
So that when if I divulge
this information, if I talk
about the physical logistic
challenges that I'm facing
or even the psychological
challenges that I'm face--
If I've got a parent with
dementia, and I'm thinking,
how do I deal with?
I'm so worried about them.
I cannot be in my work right
now because I'm thinking about
what's going to happen at home.
These are all
things that we need
to be able to share at
work, because all of us,
we're going to go through
different strains of this
at some stage.
So it's really creating
a culture and managers
to being aware of
this so that they
can have these conversations,
and they feel like they can
share without feeling that
they're going to be stigmatized
or rejection, or
that there's going
to be some fear
of repercussions,
basically, when they do share.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI:
I've just been nodding along.
This has been
resonating so much.
As a people leader
in the company,
one of the things
I also think is
that yes, employees need
to be encouraged to share,
but also we need
to start looking
at training our leaders with
how to respond to those things.
Because it's not always the
case that-- and the example,
we will talk about
this later, is
like in the instance, for
instance, of a miscarriage.
If a male leader has
to deal with that,
he needs to know the
delicate nature of how
to go about doing that, as well
as the physical kind of aspects
of it.
So I think-- and myself for
like an elder caregiver,
I would need to be trained
to understand how do I most
appropriately respond to that.
So I feel like that
piece is really missing.
We're training people on
some gender and some race
and some kind of social
norms and differences,
but we're missing
this part of it.
JANICE BYRNE: 100% agree.
I do think it is a gap.
And then in general, the
cultural thing is so true.
And the foundation of, at
the end of the day, trust.
And I think trust is easier to
build sort of one-on-one, person
to person, but it needs to be
a broader work culture of trust
so that these things can start
happening at a more standardized
or systemic level as well.
So yeah, that's the
balancing act for sure.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: When you-- you
hit on some points that were
so important around--
and I look at this, a male
leader within an organization.
And a big part of why I was so
excited for this conversation
is I learned at every
step of the way.
But you hit on something, which
is, some of these conversations
are going to be taking place
with people that will never
understand at the same
level what someone
has gone through
physically, emotionally.
But at the same time, they can
provide an appropriate space
to allow for conversation
and ideally get to a point
where we figure out some
plans for a path forward.
So the idea of psychological
safety so that someone
is sharing.
Because we know if
someone has a child,
you know that happened, right?
Usually it's very public,
and we know that happened,
we know the time frame.
But we've started to talk about
some things that unless someone
talks about it, it's actually
impossible to know what
someone's going on, and
the weight that they're
carrying into the workplace
and the potential impact
that it's just having on
their overall well-being.
We talked about training
a little bit, but what can
organizations do to build a
culture of psychological safety
so people are
comfortable sharing?
Even if they don't have
it all figured out,
but it's I'm
carrying this weight,
and I want to have this
conversation with someone I
trust without fear
of repercussion.
Because I like my job,
I like my organization,
I want to be productive,
but I'm just--
I'm dealing with stuff.
Like, what can organizations do?
And then, I'd love to talk about
what can individual leaders do
within the system as well
to create that space?
SABRINA KUMAR
CECCARELLI: One thing
that's worked for me
is being transparent
about my struggles and my life
and trying to lead by example.
And I feel like-- so I
had a stillbirth, which
was a full-term loss.
And I shared that
within the company.
I wrote an article about it.
I've talked about it now on TV.
It's something that
everyone knew about.
So when I had an employee
at an organization
go through something
similar, my hope
is she felt comfortable
coming to me
because she knew that I had kind
of talked about this broadly.
But people fear repercussions.
And I've had so many of
my friends come to me
and say on a legal basis,
if I tell my work that this
has happened, they know
I'm trying to have a child,
are they going to
hold it against me?
Can they let me go?
And unfortunately, I've
seen it go both ways.
I've seen it where
people have been let go,
and then they do think, did
that inform the decision?
And now I've seen it start to
get better in organizations,
where, as you said, there's
a better culture where
that isn't the case.
Where there's a supportive
environment, and that individual
is given time off to
deal with their issues.
EVA SALEM: I
couldn't agree more.
I think people learn by example.
I think when you
see senior leaders
being vulnerable and
showing their whole self,
it opens up the opportunity
for others to do that.
We've set up an ERG
at Canadian Tire that
is a mental health matters ERG.
I'm the senior sponsor for it.
I bring in senior leaders
to talk about the issues
that they're struggling
with in front
of whoever wants to attend.
And it just helps
destigmatize the fact
that people are dealing with
struggles at all levels.
And that A, it creates
more empathy in general.
Because as you're
engaging with others,
you're seeing a
part of their lives,
you're not seeing everything
that they're dealing with.
And then in addition to that, it
makes you just conduct yourself
within your teams
in a way that just
has a much broader scope and
a much broader understanding
of what's going on.
But I do believe these
things start at the top.
And I think seeing
senior leaders
lean into these
uncomfortable conversations
for most takes a lot of courage,
and that courage is contagious.
And I think it's kind of-- just
it's small things that you can
do, but they do send
big cultural shifts
within the organization.
JANICE BYRNE: I
think also, Brian,
even just in terms of
what concrete things
that organizations can
do or practical things
on top of this
culture and the care,
I think there's also practical
things that we can do easily.
For example, is
even having supports
there in terms of
information supports.
So for caregiving, to
have an information
where people can go to
find out new things,
where we can share resources
or knowledge resources.
Like for example,
one thing we've
done here at Ivey actually,
because we were recruiting
more and more women faculty.
And one thing we've done here
is you set up in a new city,
you need to find out how do
I get kids and summer camp?
And when do I have
to sign them up for?
But that's the really good
one, but I missed the deadline.
It's for January.
Oh, no, what am I going to do?
And now I'm left with
all the bad camps,
and my kids don't
want to do them.
But there was all this
information about babysitters,
about camps, about all
these different things
that I set up here.
I found it out, but
it was all in my head.
And so just shared
information portals,
where big organizations
can put that in a city,
could put that information
there for employees or workers
to be able to avail of it.
I think there's
practical things,
like helping
employees find out how
to navigate kind of which
human resources, like what
are there-- when
people return to work.
And obviously, flexible
work arrangements.
There's no doubt about it.
If you need to-- if you need
to pick up a child from school,
or if you need to bring
your mom to the doctors,
flexible work arrangements.
Even if it's starting
30 minutes later
or being able to take
your afternoon off.
And feeling that you
can ask for that,
or that that can be given easily
without any repercussions,
that's important.
[SOFT MUSIC]
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Navigating
sort of disclosure and sharing,
and we talks about
feeding office politics.
And so some of this can
be incredibly personal.
What if you don't want
it to go more broadly?
How do you sort of
strike that balance
between what do you share, who
do you share, when do you share?
I appreciate there's no
perfect answer to this,
but I'd love your perspectives.
Because I worry that
some may start to feel
overwhelmed and not share
because they're not sure where
it will-- where it will go.
EVA SALEM: It depends
on the individual.
I think you need to do
what's right for you.
You need to feel
safe, and you need
to feel that you're going to
get the support that you're
looking for.
So not everyone needs to
have everyone know everything
about their life, but everyone
is entitled to feel supported.
So I would-- if you are
more private about it
and want to be
private or don't feel
like you have the
manager that you
feel like you can talk to about
this, HR, that is their role.
You should definitely be
reaching out to your HR people
and figuring out
what the process is
and how the organization
can support.
And if you do have a
relationship with your boss
where you feel that
you can trust them,
or people on your team where you
feel that you can trust them,
and you feel speaking and
sharing would help you
I hope that you do that.
But it really is such
a personal thing.
And having that flexibility
is really important
to decide what
works best for you.
And the one thing I
would encourage people
is to take a moment.
These are big things.
They evolve over time.
They change.
Your needs change.
The crisis that you're dealing
with changes and evolves.
And just giving yourself the
patience and the leniency
and the self-compassion to
know that it's not a one
and done conversation
or a moment in time.
And you miss that moment,
and now it's inappropriate.
There's just a lot of
self-inflicted pressure
that we put on top of already
a very pressured situation
that hopefully we can begin
to unravel a little bit.
SABRINA KUMAR
CECCARELLI: Briefly,
what I do with employees who
come to me with such challenges
is I ask them what they want
me to do with that information.
Do you-- for example, if it's
a fertility or something like,
what do you want me?
Do you want me to share this
with the head of our legal team?
How do you want me
to characterize it?
Do you want me to
say you're just--
you're going through a tough
time with some physical issues?
I can frame it however
you want me to.
And whether it's by the
company code or not,
that's how I am
going to operate.
I'm not going to share somebody
else's very personal information
except in the way
they want me to.
And I'm also going to be
that person to them who will
hold that in trust for them.
Obviously, there's situations
where that may be different,
but thus far and what
I've encountered,
I'm able to navigate it in
a way that you can share
with me however much
you feel, and then
you tell me how you want me
to pass that information on.
And thus far, that's worked.
And I could certainly
see situations where
it won't, but so far so good.
JANICE BYRNE: I think it's
also important to think about,
as a manager or as a leader,
when people come to you,
so this kind of the
open communication
is extremely
important obviously,
as Sabrina talked about.
But I also think
that we should always
think about our own
lived experience
and how that can impact
and how we can sometimes
make assumptions, actually.
And so when I think back when
me-- when I had my-- when I
was dying to get back to work.
I really wanted to
get back to work,
because it was
going to be a break.
I could actually
be in the office
and just have some
peace and quiet.
And if I was going to work
on something for an hour,
I could work on
something for an hour.
It was lovely.
So I was dying to get back.
It's to never make assumptions
either about based perhaps
on your own lived experience.
And also with respect to sharing
or not sharing and disclosure,
there is also this
notion again which
Eva mentioned, is
everybody's different,
and it should be up to them.
And for some people, work can
actually be a refuge, right?
And work can
actually be a way to,
you've got these different
responsibilities that--
and sometimes, it can be
actually a relief to be at work.
And so that everybody
is different.
So not to make any
assumptions based
on what your knowledge
is of working mothers
or what based on your
experiences of having
a sick parent or
a sick relative.
So that is another
reason, I guess,
why this open communication
is so important.
And that you try to park your
own kind of previous assumptions
or things that you think are--
because not everybody
wants the type of help
you think you might want,
and to be mindful of that.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: I know
I've been guilty of that.
You're sort of
playing it through,
and I want to
connect with someone.
It's like, oh, I've lost a
parent, you've lost a parent,
and we sort of talk about that.
And you immediately
recognize like, Oh my gosh,
I can't profess that our
experiences are alike
in any way.
And people are
all sort of coming
from different starting points.
So being able to put
that to the side.
I think it's helpful to
have it in your mind,
because maybe it frames it,
but finding the right place
in terms of when it factors in.
Sabrina, your comments around
what do you want me to do,
if anything, with
this information
keeps someone in control, right?
Now I'm in control of the
conversation and the narrative.
And maybe I say nothing now.
And maybe in a few
weeks, that changes,
because things evolve and
continue to look a little bit--
a little bit differently.
So we've talked about
disclosure and how we do it.
And I think it's very clear that
there is no one size fits all.
There's clearly a role
that the organization can
play, especially around
creating support for managers
and what their role could
look like in leaders
and that culture
of safety, and then
what individuals can do
on a case by case basis.
So let's talk about that
culture of reciprocal care.
Where caregivers feel
comfortable seeking
help but also offering
support as well.
So we've talked about support
in terms of a listening ear,
what else could support look
like when information is shared
and someone is talking
about a certain situation?
Or in some cases,
we hear situations
where they're dealing with,
it's not one piece in isolation,
it's actually I'm dealing
with this and this and this.
And on their own,
I can handle it.
But actually, it's
the combination that's
creating a real challenge.
So what is that-- what is the
sort of role of reciprocity
sort of play in this in terms
of what organizations can do
and what individual
leaders can do?
So I'm going to bring you,
Janice, into the conversation
first on this one.
JANICE BYRNE: The creation of
mutual support among colleagues
is just so important, right?
Both as the support
and the moral support,
but also the
informational aspect.
So really, we want
a situation where
asking for help or
supports is normalized.
So that's what-- we want to
get to a stage where we can.
Kind of when we do need--
we do need help with something,
that it's not seen as weakness,
or that it's not
seen as something
that has negative
repercussions on that,
because it's a give and take.
And that I can help out on this.
And then in the
future, if there's
going to be leeway given,
then I can return the favor.
So that's really
important, I think.
Is really that mutual
support and among colleagues.
And it can be simple
things, I feel like.
For example, if we go back to
the case of working mothers
or whatever, even
just organizing
work lunches or
things-- where people
can share experiences,
trade kind of like tips,
and that that is organized.
Or that there's
times in meetings
that are actually parked for
personal conversations, right?
So that this kind of open
communication and this care
can be cultivated, I
suppose, in small ways.
And again, I'm thinking
of a lunchtime thing
just because I remember I
used to get stressed out
over the thought that something
would be on after work,
and I wouldn't be
able to go, right?
BRIAN BENJAMIN: So true.
Something I want to bring
into the conversation,
we have gender in
the title here.
What are you noticing in
terms of employees and sort
of what they're
dealing with and what
they're coming forward with?
Is there-- I'm trying to
figure out how to phrase this--
female coming
forward and saying,
this is kind of what
I'm dealing with.
Male coming forward and saying,
this is what I'm dealing with.
Are you seeing any differences?
And what role can
organizations do
to maybe expand the notion
around family and caregiving
and the role that different
caregivers, regardless
of gender, are playing.
And challenges that
caregivers have
when we think about it
across the full continuum.
Especially as it
relates to elder care
or beyond the
maternity piece that
may have very specific
needs that are occupying
a lot of time for some parents.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI:
I can speak a little bit
to the childcare piece.
One thing is we
use Slack at work,
which is like an instant
messaging program.
And one thing that I had
noticed, and I don't think I
started doing it, I think
I saw it from someone else.
Is that when someone
had a sick kid at home,
there'd be a little emoji and
say like, sick kid at home.
So that's just a very
small representation,
but it creates this kind
of immediate comfort.
And I started using it, and
people on my team use it.
That like we all understand
what that's like.
And we're kind of juggling
beyond the normal juggle
of a work day.
So again, it's that piece of
like, I think you can say tone
from the top or being
open about the struggles
that you're undergoing,
and also just
having that kind of
understanding of other people
and what they're going through.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: I love
your comment around
it's not just conversations,
sometimes maybe it's
a little band aid emoji
that means my kid is sick,
and I'm not going to be as
responsive as I normally
would be because I
might be called away.
That kind of levels the
playing field for sure.
EVA SALEM: The majority of these
issues aren't gender-based.
And even maternity, which
obviously affects women,
it affects both
sexes in many ways.
I don't know that
there is really
a difference in terms
of you approach it
one way with women
versus with men.
I think it's more creating an
environment where people feel
safe to talk about this stuff.
And I think the reality in my
experience, focus group of one,
is men struggle more with
talking about this stuff
than women, to be honest.
And so I think in some ways
are overburdened in that they
don't feel that they
can speak about it.
They feel that they will
be judged more harshly
by speaking about these things.
So I think being aware
of that and acknowledging
that as well as you
navigate through this stuff
is useful as leaders.
And so they're not
gender-specific issues,
they're human--
they're human issues.
They're people who are growing
and have full lives issues.
But I do think
there's a difference.
Generally speaking,
it does feel like men
hold a lot more of
that stuff and feel
more uncomfortable sharing.
So figuring out how
to help on that side.
JANICE BYRNE: I think I agree
for sure with the notion
of-- because there's masculinity
and toxic masculinity.
And we've got workplaces also
where sharing is maybe not
encouraged, and that's
for both men and women.
But then men also have the
personal kind of constraints
that we have in our
society of not sharing
and not being a crybaby.
The flip side to I think women
today, I think have a big--
particularly young women,
have a very strong pressure
to be perfect.
To look good, to look slim,
to be healthy, to be fit,
to eat the right foods.
We've all seen Barbie.
We know the dialogue.
But we do have a
very high pressure
and put a lot of pressure
on ourselves because of this
to be the perfect mom.
To be the perfect mom, and
to be there for our sisters,
for our brothers, for
our parents, whatever.
And so I still feel
like caregiving,
there's a heavier
burden on women.
And research-wise, it does
have a hard-- a heavier impact
in terms of like mental
illness or depression.
That ongoing caregiving
with no support
can actually impact women
more negatively than men.
So I think, though, having
said that and being surrounded
by young students, young people
here all the time, I do also
think that things are
changing with respect
to young men wanting to be more
involved fathers, for example.
So there is change
happening, for sure,
but I still do
think that there's
a very high kind
of pressure, a lot
of pressure on women to
be that perfect caregiver.
EVA SALEM: And I just
want to be clear, I agree.
I think largely, it's still
disproportionately task-wise,
tends to go towards female.
But I still also believe men
have a hard time-- a harder time
speaking about these
types of issues.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Can
I ask a question
around what a leader can do
if someone isn't disclosing,
but you suspect
something is going on?
Either you've heard
through another channel
or you're just noticing they're
off, for whatever reason.
Like, how do you initiate
the conversation,
not knowing if the
other person is going
to be willing to open up or--
like, I'm going to
leave it at that.
Because it's a big question.
But I know leaders are
struggling with this.
They're like, I want to
help, I just, they're
not saying anything.
And I know stuff is going on.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI:
It's really delicate, right?
And I've been in that situation.
I think some of us have also
been in situations where
we know someone's
leaving, and we hear it
from somewhere else, and
this kind of sentiment.
One thing I do, and I think for
me, it's about being proactive.
Because I think in
that moment, you're
not going to force
it out of someone.
You have to be
careful in doing that.
One of the things I do in every
one-on-one I have is at the end,
I ask like, OK, and how
is your mental health?
Give me a one out of 10.
And how are you doing?
Outside of work, how's
everything going?
Are you OK?
And I never prod, but I try to
give the platform and the forum
for that person
to say something.
And I may even offer a couple
of things from my life.
Like, for example, right now,
I'm going through-- like,
this is the hectic.
So again, it's I
just try to create
that environment of openness.
And everybody's different.
You're not always going to
get someone saying something.
But like a little example
is when somebody said,
oh, I just got in an argument
with my spouse this morning.
And I was like, oh, is it
the who does more thing?
Like that every
parent argues about?
And they were like, yes,
that was exactly it.
It's like yeah, that'll happen
till the end of time, it seems.
So it's just, again, I try to
lead through that empathy piece
and that like example
piece, and just kind
of finding that common ground.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: I love
that in giving that space.
I like the scale too,
because how often
are we in a situation where
you're, how is it going?
Oh, it's fine.
And you move on.
I'm like, sure, it is fine.
Maybe it is, but
let's sort of see.
Janice, Eva, any other thoughts
on this and creating that space?
JANICE BYRNE: We're in
Canada in such a melting pot
of different cultures.
I think that is important.
And that also the notion
of intersectionality,
and that when you've got
women of color in leadership,
[? there's ?] different issues.
I think definitely on the
cultural barriers to sharing,
for sure, there could be
like within certain cultures,
the notion that if I
divulge this information,
it will be seen as weakness.
And I think that's important
to acknowledge and also
not to push when--
I mean, we've already
talked about this,
not to share when the person
doesn't feel comfortable
with that.
So yeah, absolutely,
I think they're really
valid points and something I
need to think more about too.
EVA SALEM: The
only thing I would
add to it is, because
this is the biggest
struggle in some ways.
Is when you can see that
someone is suffering,
and you want to help.
To say it's delicate
is an overstatement.
So I think it comes
in the form of doing
the daily work over time.
The building, the
relationship over time.
Having the foundation
that when you
ask about someone's
well-being, they
know that you are there because
you care about their well-being,
and there's a
relationship there.
Otherwise, it gets really
prickly really quickly.
When I can see
someone is suffering
and I want to be
there, I hope that I
have put in the work
in advance of that
so that they feel
that they can share,
and we can help where we can.
Hopefully, it's not something
where you see it happen,
but you know that if you do
ask or if you do whatever,
it most likely will land
in an off-putting way.
And I think that's more of a
reflection of the relationship
than the situation.
BRIAN BENJAMIN:
Well, that idea of--
not an idea, I think
that recommendation
around putting in that time, and
I've built that relationship,
I've built that credibility.
I've seen myself
wanting to solve--
so sitting across
from an employee,
I know they're struggling.
I want to help them today.
I want to get a solution and get
them on the right path, whatever
that looks like.
But recognizing
that might not be
happening in conversation one
or conversation five, right?
We might need to do something
over a longer period of time.
Trust can do pretty
amazing things, I think,
once we've built it.
What's the advice that
you can give leaders who
are sort of navigating that?
Whether they're going through
it, they've been through it,
they're going to go through
it again, and probably
at multiple times
throughout their career.
It's not a one and
done sort of scenario.
JANICE BYRNE: We've talked a lot
about what organizations can do
and what leaders maybe can do.
And we often talk an
awful lot about what
you can do for yourself.
Which often kind
of annoys me a bit,
because it's like I
blame the women thing,
or I blame the carer and
what you can do for yourself.
But one thing that you
can do for yourself,
which I think is
just so important,
is that you can
care for yourself.
And it's Arianna
Huffington who says,
"self-care is not a luxury,
and it shouldn't be."
It really shouldn't be.
Try to prioritize yourself.
It is so important.
It is the notion of putting
on your own oxygen mask
before you can tend
to those of others.
BRIAN BENJAMIN:
Sabrina, you're up next.
SABRINA KUMAR
CECCARELLI: This is
what has spoken to me
in the last six months
since I had the opportunity to
film this series on motherhood.
Which is that there is
so much in the zeitgeist
right now around the pressure
being put on parents.
I think the surgeon
general is warning
saying that parents are in
like a medical pressure,
like diagnosed pressure, high
situation more so than they've
ever been.
And so what I would say
to leaders, particularly
leaders who may not
be the default parent,
is really, really try to
educate yourself and understand
the degree of what that person
is going to when they log off
Zoom, when they
leave the office,
while they're at the office.
Because it's very easy
to nod along and decline
a simple request that
somebody might have.
But to understand why
they're making that request,
what they're going through,
the nature of what parenting is
and motherhood, that
it's a 24-hour job.
We're averaging sleep
as mothers of young kids
beyond what any medical doctor
would say is sufficient.
And I would just
really say, treat
that as seriously as you
do the technical training
you might offer your
employees, and then you'll
approach it in a way that is
naturally more empathetic.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: I love it.
Thank you.
Eva.
EVA SALEM: Be kind to yourself,
and be kind to others.
And there is a foundation of
understanding that we are all
going through things.
Add value professionally and
fill their personal buckets
as well.
And so I think it starts by
living as you want to be treated
and doing it en masse and
creating a culture that you
want to be a part of.
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SEAN ACKLIN GRANT: Thank you for
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Sean Acklin Grant.
Editing and audio mix
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