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The Sabbath Life Podcast is about sharing stories from the Abbey of the Heights retreat house in Tulsa—all about finding rhythms of life that make us more human, learning the Christian contemplative tradition, and becoming friends with time.
Peter White:
Welcome to the Sabbath life podcast. Here is a place where we share stories about the Abbey of the Heights, the contemplative Christian tradition and rhythms of life that make us more human and friends with time. I'm Peter White. I'm one of the hosts of the Abbey of the Heights, a Christian retreat space here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And today I am joined by Scott and Alicia Young, and they are in the Oklahoma city area and they host a ministry called Intertwined Hearts Ministry and they are friends of the Sabbath Life and the Abbey of the Heights. And we just wanted to hang out with them for a little bit and hear their stories of the Abbey. First of all, do you want to introduce yourselves and share a little bit of the ministry work that you all are involved in?
Scott & Alicia (00:47)
Sure. Thanks for having us, Peter. Yes, we will celebrate 46 years of marriage at the end of May. I know we don't look that old, but we got married really young. Throughout that period of time, know, life is a roller coaster and so is marriage, and there's highs and there's lows. We have experience about every high and every low you can imagine in 46 years, which led us to a desire as a calling from the Lord to help other couples go through their valleys. So we have been doing marriage counseling for a little over 10 years. Maybe we went to a biblical-based training course where we got a certificate in biblical counseling. And we've been sharing that all along over these years. And the Lord has blessed our ministry. We both work full-time jobs. And we provide our ministry at no charge to people that need some help when they're in a crisis. And boy, we just love getting, you know, being able to sit with people and walk with them. First of all, just try to get them to, you know, come to a realization of where the Holy Spirit is in their life. And then we take it from there. So, we've been doing that. I also have a men's ministry called P.I.G.S. It's Planted In Good Soil. It's a men's ministry that we meet one Sunday night a month. The whole thing of that is it's like a men's discipleship program. It's a 12-month deal, start in January and December. Every year that ministry has grown and grown and grown. It allows me to help guide younger guys to be, first of all, more in with the Holy Spirit, working in their lives. Hopefully they turn out to be better fathers and husbands and reproducers and make the world a better place. That's a lot about us.
Peter White (02:33)
Alicia, do you want to share some about what the ministry is meant to you and where it comes from for you.
Scott & Alicia (02:42)
Yes, I kind of came at it reluctantly. Scott is, you know, said, hey, I'm going to go do some training. You know, we were meeting with couples at our church and he said, I think if we're going to do this, that really we should have some training to do it, more training. So I said, OK, if you're going to do this, then I'm going to come alongside you. And we have had just a beautiful opportunity to sit with people that are experiencing crisis. The part about it that I love the most is seeing them with the desire to deepen and develop their relationship with Jesus. I've, you know, I have, like I said, reluctantly came along, but I'm so glad that I stepped into it with him. It's been a real blessing.
Peter White (03:40)
So it sounds like the vision for this ministry and the way that you practice it has been born out of your own story and experience.
Scott & Alicia (03:47)
Absolutely. Yeah. I think we could sit here and talk about all the trials and tribulations in our 46 years, but I don't think we have time for that. 2 Corinthians 1:4 is pretty much our mission statement. And Scott's paraphrase of that is that, you know, God helped us, so we got to help others. And we just really put that into practice because we wouldn't be where we are today without, you know, the Holy Spirit, God breathing on us to show us the direction to go. When I was talking with my men's group last night that all of those years ago, all of the pain and the struggles and the personal crises that we had, we could have thrown in the towel and we could have just called it quits, but we persevered because we knew what the right thing was to do. And we got on our knees instead of grabbing our suitcase and ⁓ You know, just trying to let people know that man, the power of Christ can get you through anything. He is all sufficient. And you just got to be willing, you know, and you got to love and forgive. And yeah, it has, it's been quite a journey.
Peter White (04:58)
Can you remember, so you said this ministry has existed for about 10 years now. At what point did you come across the Sabbath life?
Scott & Alicia (05:07)
That would be me, I guess. I'm the one who came across it first. So I would say that was about four years ago.
Peter White (05:16)
Okay.
Scott & Alicia (05:17)
I had read a book that introduced me to even the word spiritual director about four years ago and from that book it led me to another book and I started seeing the common denominator in these books on formation and disciplines and I'm like, man, a lot of what I'm reading about, spiritual direction sounds kind of similar to what we're doing here in our ministry. I'm like, I think I need to continue to look into that, right? So I happen to mention it. Actually my sister-in-law mentioned that she had just finished a program and become a spiritual director and I'm like what here in Oklahoma? And she said yes and she mentioned the Sabbath life then and I said whoa I thought like they were only like north somewhere I didn't know that we had something right here in Oklahoma so that was the first time about four years ago.
Peter White (06:31)
Okay, so yeah, so what were you finding in spiritual direction that you felt like resonated with the work that you do? What was the same and what was different?
Scott & Alicia (06:40)
The same was that we want to keep God the center and the Holy Spirit the center of what we were doing in our ministry and I got the sense from what I was reading that that was exactly what spiritual direction was. We were going to keep God the center of everything that we do. The difference, you know, is in counseling we give a lot of our advice here, do this, do that, try this, try that. And then as I continued to research spiritual direction, it was more about making God the center of the conversation and allowing him to be in that space. I'm like, that is... you know, I want to know more. I became more curious as to what that looked like. I think with that being said, I can come in on that and say that I believe that our counseling is different since we've been exposed to spiritual direction. She just finished your program. I've got a year left and I really believe that we have become, I know I am, become a better listener, which is important in spiritual direction and in counseling. just having that, a deeper sense of the presence of the Holy Spirit, being aware of that and us being able that we have that and then being able to kind of put that out on our clients, you know, and quite frankly, some of them, you know, really absorb that. Others may be a bit more resistant or it take a little bit longer, but I do believe that our counseling methods have changed in the last couple of years for the better.
Peter White (08:29)
Do you feel like that's been like shifting gears or have you found resistance in that for yourself?
Scott & Alicia (08:35)
I don't feel resistance in that at all. I mean, ⁓ people come to us, you know, so they don't like what we're doing. They can quit coming, but they don't, you know, they keep coming. And yeah, I feel like it has been shifting gears. And I think that we want to continue to shift those gears. And I might just add to that, too, while he's very confident in the no resistance, I personally just because some of the discipline involved with being a spiritual director. I have worked one muscle a lot longer than I have the spiritual direction seen. in when I'm sitting with individuals, I can sometimes find myself having to pause and remember that this session is different than what I've been accustomed to. So it's just retraining.
One of the things that we learned, Peter, I don't know if you said it or somebody said it, I didn't say it, I'm just going to repeat it, that counseling is for something that happened in the future. In the past. In the past, yeah. Counseling is for the past, coaching is for the future, and spiritual direction is for the right now. I love that.
Peter White (09:51)
Yeah, so for the folks that have been coming to you for, to talking about issues in their marriage, what are they finding different now? in or, or maybe even how are you approaching what you offer different to these folks? If they're coming with the questions of like, Hey, how do you fix my marriage?
Scott & Alicia (10:12)
That's a good question. That is. We wish we had a little red pill for it. People would be lined up outside. Something that I've seen shift and Scott alluded to it a little bit earlier and I will say this probably more than once. The thing that is really, really different is the presence that they walk into into the room. It is a non-anxious presence. We have shifted in, ⁓ you know, arriving to our appointments more prepared in regards to prayer. And I believe, to get to your question about the difference is, just the fact that we are offering a non-anxious presence to a couple who could come in that are very tense and very uptight. We've had many people just talk about the space. And when they come in and walk in, that can shift a lot of things. Like Scott said, there's a pill we could give them that did that, but just that non-anxious presence. There's things that we, you know, we can say, but that presence is something they're not getting probably in their home very much. But I have with incorporating spiritual direction in my life. I attempt to come into that space just as calm as I can be. My hope for people that walk in the door here is that they there's a front office area where people can park but we have a back door and we have people park back there and my my sincere hope is that whenever people cross that threshold from the parking lot into this office that they have the same feelings when I walk up the steps to the Abbey. Yeah, so true. And if anybody that hears this hasn't been there, you need to go there.
Peter White (12:06)
Well, that maybe that makes a great pivot then Scott to like, tell us some about what what do you experience when you walk up the steps of the Abbey?
Scott & Alicia (12:21)
Gosh. Whether I'm carrying my bags in or whether I'm just walking up the steps to enter that place, it's like I'm walking through the gate that the angels have opened to me and I walk in place and the peace and the calm and the presence, whether I see you when I walk in or other people or nobody, I can just tell that that is such a a reverent and holy place. It's like walking in, and we've done this before on some of our travels, there's this giant basilica in Mobile, Alabama, this very old Catholic church, one of those cathedrals. And man, when you walk in there, it's just the presence. And I feel that same way when I walk into the Abbey. I can't explain it any other way. It's just, you know that that is a place where God is dwelling and that there are multiple people there that believe the same way. And as we've prayed, you know, we're two or more gathered and man, it's just, it's such a, a sense of peace and calm and of generosity from everyone, not just you and Jackie, but from the other people that are there. And man, I, feel very privileged that I have a room there during our cohorts. Cause you know, it's like everybody in the group are now your brothers and sisters, and then, or maybe they're more like cousins, but the four people that stay upstairs become like the brothers and sisters. You know, there's four rooms, and in my group, there's three ladies and myself. And sometimes when we all get there Wednesday night, we'll sit down there in the back library and just talk for hours, you know, and just, we've become so close. It's just really amazing. And we're all there for the same thing, you know, it's just, I mean, I... I could go on and on, but I love the presence of that place.
This, think, Peter, would be interesting to share. It's the difference between an extrovert and an introvert. You know, my experience, very much the same as far as the reverence and, you know, just the... Yeah, I think that was great what he said about people walk here, if they get just a little... a little piece of what we experience and then that's a beautiful thing. My first year at the Abbey, I came by myself, which is very, it's big for an introvert to not have him by my, you know, side, walking in for the first time. And I was unaware of the space, you know, I'd never been into the space before. And I'm usually a little scaredy cat, like when I'm by myself in places, but I never one time ever felt a sense of any of that. Which to me, I just, I thanked the Lord for that, but the presence there from the time I opened the door that first time, I was like, Well, this is different. This is different for me. So, and yeah, I went to my room and didn't come out much once I got there, but that's the introvert. And I really, I think that the Lord really spoke to me a lot during that time. You know, I could have chosen to be out and do, but the first year I've really used the time after our sessions to go and reflect and just be still and allow the Lord to just reveal to me all that I received that day. So it's a difference between, like I said, someone who really just lets go and someone who's like, let me see first.
Peter White (16:13)
Yeah, yeah, we're a good place for both extroverts and introverts, right?
Scott & Alicia (16:17)
Yes, you are. Yes.
Peter White (16:20)
But that is a fascinating thing to think about of just the way that both those those different kinds of personalities experience the Abbey in different ways. ⁓ I think sometimes we can get this idea in our heads that like this these contemplative practices of being in the world and things like silence and solitude and retreat are only for introverts but not for extroverts. All those things are for human beings and for all the ways that we're human beings.
Scott & Alicia (16:52)
Thank you.
Peter White (16:52)
Yeah, so Alicia, you have just completed two years in the School of Spiritual Direction. Congratulations. You finished and you graduated. And Scott, you're midway. You're in year one so far. What have been some of the highlights for you of the School of Spiritual Direction? What have been the wins for you?
Scott & Alicia (16:59)
Thank you. ⁓ Oh my goodness, the wins. There's so many. I think my gut goes to relationship. Relationship. The individuals that I've spent the last two years with, I did not know one of them. I didn't know any of them. Leaving them when we graduated recently, was like I was leaving family behind. And I really feel like that comes to me number one. Number two would just be the ability to be vulnerable in those learning spaces and feeling safe with that vulnerability, feeling loved, feeling...
You know, I think I found some of my voice. Excuse me. That's funny. My voice did that when when I said that word. Finding my voice. Knowing that I have a voice and the people that I was surrounded with there allowed that. There's just, yeah, so many. That I'm still I think it's going to take me a little while. to really comprehend it all. You know, I'm ready to just sit with it all and maybe in a year we can do this again. And I'll have another, I'll have more to add to that. it's just such a gift, such a blessing, such an honor, such a privilege to, to be a part of what's happening at the Abbey.
One of the other things that she has told me about her experience is that... there's no judgment from the other people. know, like, you didn't answer that right or whatever. And I think that that's important is that everybody's on a level playing field. Whether you have a high school diploma or a PhD, it doesn't really matter. We're all there for the same thing and learning the same things. And I know that that's been really important to her. And she's voiced that to me many times over the last two years, you know, that she didn't feel like anybody was trying to, there wasn't any jockeying for who's number one and who's number two.
Peter White (19:42)
Yeah, so what sense of expectation Scott did you have that Alicia was a year ahead of you in the program?
Scott & Alicia (19:48)
Wow. So whenever we jumped into, when I said, I'm going to go get some biblical counseling to be a counselor, I didn't really have an expectation that she would do it. But she said, well, if you're going to do it, I'm going to do it. And then I was like, well, that's great. Let's go do it. And so it took us almost three years to get through a two-year program because part of that was in COVID and our classes were hit and miss. But whenever this came about and she was learning about the spiritual direction and looking at these other programs, then my sister said, hey, there's this one up here. Man, I was rooting her on because that's a really big step for her. I mean, I don't know if she's ever driven to Tulsa by herself. On that first day, she drove there and went to the Abbey all by herself. I mean, I'm sure that the GPS helped her get there, but I was so proud of her. I was just crying the other day whenever you gave her her certificate. I mean, I was just so proud of her. But I think that we are two completely different personalities. And I'm sure that that's very aware to you seeing both of us in action over the last year with me being there. But I came up to a couple of her intensives just as a guest. And, you know, and I just stayed upstairs and then I depart during the day while you guys were having your sessions. then, so I got to meet some of the people in her class, which was wonderful. And I was already, I had that experience of coming into the Abbey, not as a student, but just as a guest of a student. so then whenever I started the program, I did know one other person that I had done the Ignation exercises with for nine months. We had talked towards the end of that period that we were both gonna be doing this and the Spiritual Direction Program. So was so glad to see her. And I think we might be like, and feel free to correct us, know, mean, we're like the two kids in class that are always talking or something. And what I love about her is, and she's done this more than once. Like if you ask a question and nobody says anything, she'll give me an elbow and said, It's your turn to talk. So she's like the Holy Spirit's telling her to tell me to say something. my experience has been wonderful. I kind of consider myself a lifelong learner. I want to continue to learn and to read and to study and to understand. And years past, that may have been in more of a scientific way. in the last 10 or 15 years, it's been in a spiritual way. I mean, I feel the Lord is drawing me in more and more every day and I love that. And I think that my experience of being a student of spiritual direction has just given me a greater compassion, not only for myself, but for others and has helped me to become comfortable with silence. And I'm a talker. You don't have to nod your head or anything because you already know that. You know, I do, I have to be quiet sometimes and I'm comfortable with that. I'm okay. I couldn't always say that. So I'm learning every day and with every intensive that comes and goes, I look forward to the next one. And I do think that I had an advantage coming into the program just because I've seen what she's done the year before. One of the things she says, I can't wait till you read this book. I can't wait till you read this book. Have you started this book yet? And I'm like, hey, easy tiger. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. So kind of holds my feet to the fire a little bit too, but it's been a wonderful adventure and I'm looking forward to the next year.
Peter White (23:31)
That's great. I love that. I'm looking forward to the next year with you too, Scott. So if if you were to recommend the program to somebody like what what kind of person do you think would be a great fit for the School of Spiritual Direction? And you know, what kind of encouragement would you want to give them?
Scott & Alicia (23:33)
Thanks. That's a great question, Peter. First of all... I think they need to be a little bit older. I don't mean older me because I'm already old, but I think they need to be mature in their family life. ⁓ There's a particular guy in my men's group that, man, he's all in and someday he'll be in your program and he'll be an awesome spiritual director. But right now he's chasing around four kids to ball games every weekend, you know, and I feel for him. owns his own business and everything. I think somebody, you know, that's kind of one thing, but I really do feel that a person who is mature in their relationship with the Lord, who is seeking a deeper relationship, more attentiveness to the Holy Spirit, I think that getting into this program, if they're looking for that, if they're looking to become more attentive and attuned to God, they're looking at trying to be more comfortable with silence and if they are looking for their own interior growth, I think that's the kind of person that would be a good fit. My sister said something interesting to me recently up there. She said, think every believer should go through spiritual direction school, but not everyone should be a spiritual director. And that's probably true, you know. I think that any, you know... I don't know about everybody's plans on when they get their certificate, if they're going to go hang their shingle up to be a spiritual director, or if they're just going to use it for their own interior growth. I mean, that's all individual things. But I think that if a person is desiring to grow in that way in their relationship with the Lord, then this program's for them, whether they ever want to practice being a spiritual director or not.
Yeah, and I would add to that while he was talking, I thought about, you know, someone who is interested too in self-awareness. You know, that is something that I really, especially the second year, I think the first year, you know, were for me personally, it's different for everyone, but it was more about the knowledge, you know, of what is what is a spiritual director in year two. Either I had relaxed enough from year one, but then in year two, really, that's, I really began to embrace the self-awareness part of, you know, what's going on with me, what's going on inside of me, what's stirring in me. And 'm sure that that begins happening in year one, but I just, in year two, it really came. So someone who is eager to... learn more about what's happening with themselves.
Peter White (26:52)
Yeah, that's a brave thing, isn't it, to want to be self-aware?
Scott & Alicia (26:55)
Yeah. Yes, it really is.
Peter White (27:00)
So a similar question that I'll kind of twist a little bit is like, for somebody that might visit the Abbey for a retreat, what what kind of person would you think need that or want that and what would you recommend to them?
Scott & Alicia (27:19)
I think anyone who lives in today's world could benefit from coming to the Abbey. The reason that I say that, mean, young, old, whatever stage of life you're in, if you are living and breathing in this world, in the culture we're currently in that's so full of noise and chatter, you step into the Abbey, you don't have that. And for... You might have your own inner chatter like, whoa, what is this? It's foreign. If you've not ever had that experience, but I would highly recommend it for anyone. And, you know, be open to what it is that the Holy Spirit may be saying in that environment. We also currently have some clients that we're seeing that just don't get away very often. And we've got some of the Sabbath Life little brochure things that you have. And we've talked about when the time is right that we want to gift them a couple nights stay up there and send them up there. Let them experience just the presence of the stuff like I talked about when you walk in the door. And so that's what we think of it. We think of it that we want people to go there just maybe not necessarily for a two-year spiritual direction program, but just to get away and to have some respite, like she said, out of the noise, because it is just so peaceful there.
Peter White (28:33)
Thank you for saying that Scott. I'm grateful for that. Yeah, we're just a quick drive up I-44 from the Oklahoma City area.
Scott & Alicia (28:54)
Yeah, you get there really quick.
Peter White (29:04)
All right. I've got a couple of just fun questions that I'm asking all of our guests. So, ⁓ yeah. Will you guys play along with, with me? These are just like top of mind answers. You don't have to think really hard about these. Who wants to go first? So what's the last book that you read?
Scott & Alicia (29:36)
Okay. I'll go first.
Streams in the Wasteland by Andrew Arndt.
Peter White (29:45)
Awesome. And you, Scott? ⁓ Part of a book. Yeah, we can count that.
Scott & Alicia (29:46)
Full book or part of a book? I just finished Pickering and it's my favorite book so far of all time. What's it called? Spiritual Direction 101 or something like that.
Peter White (29:59)
Yeah, I think it's Spiritual Direction: An Introduction.
Scott & Alicia (30:02)
It seems to me like that's the spiritual direction textbook. ⁓ The other thing, if I can add a second book, was a book by Boo Walker who writes these stories about a wine country city in eastern Oregon. And whenever we're in class time, it's hard to read anything, a novel of any sort, but whenever between December and the next cohort, I read that book when we were on the beach for a week and we love his work and it's pretty good. you know, whenever you're in the throes of class, I just don't, I can't in my mind justify reading something else when I got some books to get through. But Pickering, ⁓ Pickering has been been my favorite so far.
Peter White (30:32)
Awesome! If your job was something different than what it is now, what would it be?
Scott & Alicia (31:00)
Go ahead. I tell people this every day. was somewhere and a lady, was it the eye doctor and the girl, the nurse in there was giving me small talk. And she said, well, if you didn't do what you do, what would you do? And I said, I'd be a pastor. I'm not a pulpit pastor. And I already am that. I'm a pastor of people and of men. And I would love to be able to do that on my schedule to have more time available.
My job is 50 hours a week and so is hers. So we have that commitment to get the paycheck every two weeks until we retire. But I would love to just serve and minister to people, to couples, to men. I would echo that. Being able to sit more with and ask questions of people.
Peter White (31:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm, I could see the two of you doing that. Awesome. What's a place that you'd like to travel that you've never been before?
Scott & Alicia (31:58)
I just asked her that question. think I think Ireland That's not what you said. Well, that's what I'm saying to Peter I would I would say that same thing. That's we do we I am of Irish descent and Maybe there's this calling to the motherland. I don't know but I think but and I know Shelley's been there my sister we've talked to her about it and she said you got to go and I think probably Ireland would be someplace.
Peter White (32:30)
Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah.
Do you have a movie that you can watch 100 times and it never gets old like a comfort food movie?
Scott & Alicia (32:40)
No, I'm not a movie person. He'll have several. I'll just give you a scene. See if you know the movie. What do want me to do, Mary? I'll lasso the moon and pull it down for you. It's a Wonderful Life. It's a Wonderful Life with Jimmy Stewart. I can watch it Christmas time or the middle of the summer. I love it.
Peter White (32:42)
Nice. What's your favorite place to eat a meal?
Scott & Alicia (33:07)
I love Mexican food. Any Mexican food. There's a couple little joints here in our part of town that we go in and they know our names and you know we love that and we try to be patrons there as frequently as we can eat Mexican food. So maybe tonight and maybe where we go tonight.
Peter White (33:10)
Any Mexican food place. If we were to go to karaoke, what would be your song?
Scott & Alicia (33:31)
That's funny Wow, I cannot think of one the what's... Bohemian, Bohemian Rhapsody? I don't know that's whoever whatever Scott sing and I'll sing that. I Need a Lover. They won't drive me crazy
Peter White (33:39)
Excellent.
Scott & Alicia (33:50)
I'm kind of a Mellencamp fan, so I would sing Mellencamp songs at karaoke. ⁓
Peter White (33:56)
All night long. Perfect.
All right, last question. What is it that makes you laugh the hardest?
Scott & Alicia (34:03)
Scott. I was going to say you. I think I would say that but what I would really what is really honest about that are funny sounds that the body makes. You pick.
Peter White (34:24)
I am sure this is why people want to come to you to talk about their marriages. Knowing that you guys make each other laugh. That's pretty perfect. So if people that are listening wanted to connect with you and hear more about your ministry and the work that you all do, how would they do that?
Scott & Alicia (34:46)
We have a website, www.intertwinedhearts.org. They can reach us there. They can email us at hope@intertwinedhearts.org or they could call our phone number, 405-314-7704 and leave a message.
Peter White (35:04)
Fantastic. guys, I am so grateful for you. I am just God's been so good to bring you to do our lives.
Scott & Alicia (35:12)
And we for you Peter. you.
Peter White (35:14)
Yeah, this has been fun. Thanks for spending time with us today, and listeners thank you for for listening and being with us today. Be sure that you're subscribing to the podcast so that you're able to catch up on the next stories that we share here and if you like what you're hearing also please leave us a review so that other people can easily discover us and help us spread the word about the Abbey of the Heights and the work of the Sabbath Life in this way of just being restful.
Scott & Alicia (35:18)
Absolutely.
Peter White (35:40)
So until next time, may you know in the deepest parts of your soul that you are God's beloved. Peace.
Scott & Alicia (35:40)
Amen.