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Dan Hope and Andy Anders of Eleven Warriors bring you inside the Ohio State beat every Wednesday with a podcast covering everything you need to know about the Buckeyes.
[Dan Hope]
Welcome into Real Pod Wednesdays. I'm Dan Hope, joined by Andy Anders, as we are now just five days away from the start of spring football at Ohio State. Starting a couple weeks later than usual, and yet, Andy, it kind of feels like it snuck right up on us because of how late the last season went.
[Andy Anders]
Yeah, I mean, January 20th is certainly the latest I've ever been covering college football season. It just, we were talking about it the other day, it just feels like the fact that spring practice is next week, starts next week, even though it was delayed from when it normally starts until after spring break to give the players some additional time off after that long postseason run, it still feels like it came up on us out of nowhere here a little bit. So, you know, I've been in the trenches with basketball a little bit here in the last few weeks, and then all of a sudden you look over your shoulder and then spring football is coming up.
It all happens fast, and I think it happens faster every year I cover this team.
[Dan Hope]
Yeah, we're going to be getting into a very busy week next week with Ohio State football starting spring practice. Hopefully, maybe Ohio State men's basketball playing in the NCAA tournament. We'll talk about that a little at the end of the show.
Ohio State women's basketball, we know they'll be playing in the NCAA tournament. There are several other sports. It's always just mid-March, outside of football season, this mid-March time is probably the busiest time we have all year because you're juggling the end of a basketball season, a lot of Ohio State teams, and kind of that championship portion of their season, while Ohio State football is also ramping up spring practice.
We'll have Pro Day coming up in a couple of weeks. The NFL draft is only a little bit over a month away. I don't think it's really ever felt quiet for us yet since the end of football season, but certainly these next four to six weeks are going to be plenty busy for us.
Lots going on before we kind of decompress a little bit for a few months in the summer before preseason camp starts. Lots going to be going on at the Woody Hayes Athletic Center over the next four weeks. Ohio State will practice 15 times over the next four weeks.
We know that we'll be there on quite a few of those practice days for hopefully watching some practices, talking to some players, and so really kind of getting into the thick of the preparation for the 2025 season. I feel like after winning a championship, it's a little bit different because it's like when a season ends disappointingly, it's like everybody just kind of turns the page right away. This year it's kind of been like, okay, how do we balance continuing to talk about this awesome championship run that just happened, this historic season that we're going to be talking about for decades to come, but oh yeah, there's also another season ahead that the team's starting to prepare for, and Ohio State's not going to rest on its laurels of just winning a championship last year.
The returning players, returning coaches want to go do it again, and then there's lots of new faces who want to be a part of what Ohio State just accomplished last year. So we're still going to have some more championship recap content coming up on 11 Warriors over the course of the summer, but I think when spring ball starts, I think that's when it really starts to feel like, okay, we're starting to turn the page to 2025. We're starting to really think about that next season ahead for Ohio State football, and there's going to be no shortage of storylines for Ohio State this spring because Ohio State is replacing really 17 players who played major roles for the team last year, 15 of whom were invited to the NFL Scouting Combine, plus G.
Scott Jr. and Josh Fryer. So that's 17 guys who played a lot of football for this Ohio State football team last season that Ohio State has to replace this spring, and I think that's going to really be the most important part of this spring. We've heard Ryan Day talk about managing reps this spring, not wanting to put too much on the plates of the guys who did play a lot this last season, but the reality is the majority of the guys who are going to be playing major roles for Ohio State next season didn't play a lot this past season, and so those guys really do need to get a full spring of reps.
[Andy Anders]
The feeling entering this spring is, I think, completely contrary to the feeling entering last spring, where Ohio State had just obviously had a very disappointing end to the season, and you had all these seniors coming back. You added so much in the transfer portal, blew through a boatload of NIL dollars, and it was that all-in push where there was so much pressure on the program to deliver on what was on the build of the roster and getting all those guys back and doing all these things. They ultimately paid off with a national championship, and now you come into this season, and it feels like there's, I wouldn't say the expectations, the expectations are always high at Ohio State, but coming into this spring with so much new off a national title win, I don't think there's that do-or-die pressure on the program anymore, that there kind of was that feel last offseason, and I think that could benefit them in terms of young guys who are stepping into new roles, coaches who are stepping into new roles, all these things, all this churn in the program. I think that could be a benefit of having some of that pressure and expectations lifted because you did deliver last year, and by the same token, this year's spring is much different from last year's spring, because last year's spring, there were hardly any position battles to talk about. This year, you're replacing, like you said, 17 guys who had a major contributing role to that national championship team, and I think the first question as you're talking about kind of the new look, the new feel of this Ohio State team is defensive coordinator and what exactly it's going to look like under Matt Patricia.
There is a lot of moving parts. We know that Patricia was known for running a lot of multiple defenses, multiple formations, multiple lineups, just everything, multiple fronts, right? So when you're breaking in eight new starters along the defense and what it will look like and how you best utilize Caleb Downs, how you build around him, Sonny Stiles, and Davison Igbenosin, you know, it's been very interesting talking to him, listening to him for the first time here last week, and Dan, coming out of that first meeting with Matt Patricia, just did your level of confidence grow in him?
Where do you sit as we enter the spring?
[Dan Hope]
I would say, yeah, because, you know, it just felt like a rejuvenated Matt Patricia, like hearing him talk. I mean, physically, he just looks different than he did a couple years ago when he was coaching in the NFL, but, you know, it just feels like he's really excited to be at Ohio State, but I think, you know, him and, you know, he's close friends of Phil Belichick, and I think, you know, they spent a lot of time this past year talking about kind of how they could take what they did well in the NFL and translating it to the college game, and obviously they're not doing it together, Bill Belichick doing it as the head coach at UNC, Matt Patricia doing it as the defense coordinator at Ohio State, but I think this is something he's been thinking about, where, you know, I don't think this is just a matter of, oh, he didn't get an NFL job, so he's going to Ohio State. I think he's been thinking about how the college game has changed and how he can take what he did in the NFL and translate it to the college level, and I think he's genuinely very excited about being at the college level and experiencing something different and kind of being around that college atmosphere and, you know, working with young players and helping them develop and helping them get to the NFL, and so I think he said all the right things in that first press conference. Now, you know, I'm always one of those people, like, winning the press conference really doesn't matter, like, it's something that we like to talk about. It's like we, in our position in particular, are tasked with, like, evaluating press conferences and giving takeaways from them, but at the end of the day, it comes down to what you do on the field, and so he can say all the right things.
Ultimately, it's going to come down to does he put together an effective defense for this Ohio State football team, but, you know, the good news is, you know, the background is there, and I think, you know, the big question that I've brought up multiple times on this show, and it's what I asked Matt Patricia about last week, was how do you take what you did in the NFL, and do you need to simplify that, making that transition to the college level? And his answer to that was really that, yeah, we have a lot of packages. We have a lot of different things that we can do.
You know, he talks about the Bible he has, which is basically a big book he has full of concepts he's collected over, you know, 25 years in coaching or whatnot, and there's a lot of different ideas, I think, that he'll bring to the table, but ultimately, his goal is to simplify that into, you know, what are our, you know, five best things that we can do, and then, you know, how do we build upon those things so that we have different things we can do to match up with each opponent each week, and so it feels to me like he's taking the right approach into this. I think just talking to the other coaches as well, there seems to be good alignment.
They seem to be excited about working with him. I mean, I think, obviously, one of the big questions coming into this was how would Larry Johnson's philosophy mesh with Matt Patricia's philosophy, and again, I think Larry said all the right things about, you know, he said, hey, you know, he kind of dismissed this notion that's been around him, that he's just a four down front guy, that, you know, he thinks that, you know, they can, you know, be interchangeable out of that four man front with the way that they move players around, and so I think you definitely get the impression that this is going to be a more multiple defense in 2025 than it's been the last few years, and I think that all starts with the fact that Jack Sawyer, JT Tuamolo, Ty Lee Williams, and Ty Hamilton aren't there anymore. I think for the last couple years, it made sense for Ohio State to be a primarily four man front defense.
I think this year, because you're replacing so much up front, it probably makes sense for Ohio State to integrate some more looks in there, and, you know, I think you think back to last week, you know, probably the biggest material takeaway of the entire day on Friday when we talked to Ryan Day and all 10 of the assistant coaches was learning that CJ Hicks has made the move to edge defender, that he's with Larry Johnson now, you know, is he going to be a true defensive end? Is he going to be more of a stand-up, rusher, linebacker, hybrid?
I think that's kind of still to be determined this spring, but they are finally committing to, hey, CJ Hicks' best asset is rushing the passer off the edge and going off the edge and making plays. And that's a really intriguing thing. I mean, when we talk about players to watch this spring, I think CJ Hicks is probably going to be very high on both of our lists because this is a guy who's a five-star talent.
We've kind of been waiting three years to see him realize that. This is now his last chance this spring, and he's going to be doing it at a new position. And so I think seeing how all that unfolds this spring, certainly for me, when I think about the biggest things I'm going to be watching when we go out there next week and watch our first practice, the biggest thing I'm going to be looking for is what are they doing defensively?
Can we glean any clues on what the defense is going to look like from what they do defensively? It's no secret that the days the media are going to be there are not going to be the days where they're installing their entire defensive scheme. They're not going to want to give away.
When they're playing Texas in game one of a season, the last thing they're going to want to do this offseason is give away all the secrets to their game plan. And so they may have more incentive to want to hide things this offseason than maybe they did last year when they were playing Akron or whoever it was in week one. So they're not going to give away all the secrets this spring and summer.
But I think we are at least going to be able to get some idea for what the defense is going to look like this spring. And perhaps more specifically than scheme stuff, get an idea of which players on that defensive side of a ball are ready to step up because they need that at all three levels of the defense. Now, I think the good news is I think there's a lot of talent at all three levels of the defense.
I think there's a lot of players who are capable of stepping up on the defense. But the reality is there's really only three players on the defense who we know for sure can be full-time starters and do it very well on this defense. That's Caleb Downs, Sonny Stiles, Davison Iguinosa.
And I think we're very confident Jermaine Matthews can be that guy. I think we fully expect that Arvell Reese can be that guy. But there's still a lot more questions than answers as it pertains to the defense going into the spring.
And that's why for me, the defense is going to be the number one storyline of this spring for me.
[Andy Anders]
Absolutely, I'd agree with you. And marrying a few of the points you made in terms of what we're going to see this spring and with this defense, I think one of the beauties of how football is just played and organized is you can have an incredibly multiple scheme while still keeping it simple for the players. I think there's definitely an ability to—you can call the same defense out of a variety of personnel packages, formations, and looks up front.
Obviously, alignment's going to change if you're running more of a 3-4 than a 4-3 if Hicks is a true stand-up, edge-rushing linebacker, right? But you can just—that multiplicity, you don't have to complicate it too much for the players. And I really think—we talked about Ohio State simplifying its scheme in the back half of 2024.
They did that a lot while staying multiple, more multiple, and disguising it more. I think doing more pre-Snap 2, you know, we might be running the same cover which we won. We've run 10 other times this game, but we're going to show something else first that we've also run and kind of move in and out of that, confuse the look for the quarterback, get him to hold the ball.
I mean, that's how you sack Dylan Gabriel eight times without really sending any blitzes. This is what Ohio State did in the second half of last year that had success, and I think that's where Matt Patricia's idea for this defense is, kind of in that same Jim Knowles vein that had a lot of success last year, although they're different coaches and there's going to be different ways they implement that. I think the C.J. Hicks discussion bleeds well into, I think, one of the biggest positions to watch on this defense. For me, it starts up front when you're replacing four starters, and it starts up front in general. You know, I'm a big trench guy. The defensive ends there.
Larry Johnson, it's clear, and I think how he's been used the last couple seasons, it's clear that this is Kenyatta Jackson Jr.'s start turn. He's going to be—they want him to be the anchor of this defensive line. They want him to be the leader in the room, as Larry Johnson put it on Friday.
I am curious to see exactly what that looks like for Kenyatta and embracing that when you've sat behind Jack Sawyer and J.T. Chiumo the last few seasons. We've seen great flashes from him, from Caden Curry, too, who I have always liked his motor, his skill set there off the edge, and we even saw him used in some pass rush specialty packages as a three-technique defensive tackle, although that kind of faded in the second half of the year, it felt like, from Caden. And are those two guys ready in the wings?
And then how does that compete then with C.J. Hicks moving to the edge, where I agree with you, and I think the coaches would agree, obviously. C.J. would agree, obviously, based off comments he's made in the past, that this is the best fit for his skill set. A lot of times, if it doesn't happen in the first three years for a five-star prospect, it's hard to make it happen at all.
But I think this is the move with him, and it makes me reflect back to Baron Browning a little bit, too, how Baron Browning— he started at linebacker, he had a decent Ohio State career, but he was a five-star prospect, and it always felt like that was the best use of his skill set, and they never really tried to make it happen. This year, Ohio State might finally have an elite, edge-rushing linebacker, a specialist at that, that they try to actually plug into that role, and I'm very, very excited to see how that plays out. But then one name you also have to bring up in the defensive end conversation is Logan George.
This is a guy who had 19 1⁄2 tackles for loss last year at Idaho State, at the FCS level, I know, but he was brought here for a reason, and I think he's going to get serious rotational reps, especially on first and second down, when you might want a stouter run defender in there. JT and Jack excelled. They were—if they weren't the best defensive end tandem, period, in the country, which you could easily argue last year, they were certainly the best run-defending defensive end tandem in the country last year.
And that's an element of their games that Ohio State might sneakily miss, depending—I mean, long-term exposure to Kenyatta Jackson and Caden Curry, maybe they'll prove to be excellent run defenders too, but Logan George comes in with that reputation, and I think there's definitely situations where they're going to want to maybe look at getting him involved, but you don't know how the game is going to translate from the FCS level. He was great at Idaho State, but how does he step up then? And so there's a lot of conversations at defensive end and defensive tackle too.
You expect Caden McDonald and Endrick Houston to be the frontrunners after Edrick moved down from defensive end to three-tack as a freshman last year, vaulted some guys on the depth chart, but Tyrone Malone and Jason Moore are still there too after Hiro Kanu transferred. Those are both guys that had some recruiting pedigree. I think Jason Moore in particular, when Larry Johnson calls him the ideal three-tack knee in Ohio State's defense last spring, doesn't really pay off any of that hype in the following season.
Where is Jason Moore in his development? But I really definitely expect Caden McDonald to be the nose guard for this team, and Endrick Houston is going to enter spring with a leg up at three-tack as well. So the entire defensive line, there's a lot of interesting storylines coming into this season, and it's, I think, maybe outside of the quarterback competition, the most interesting position to play out and exactly how it looks come fall.
[Dan Hope]
Yeah, I think probably as a whole, the defensive line is probably my biggest question mark position going into spring, because of the fact you're replacing four really good players who are going to be in the NFL next year. And the reality is, you know, all these guys we talked about, I think they all have talent, but we haven't seen any of these guys in a role where they have to play 40, 50 snaps a game. So can Kenyatta and Caden and Caden and Endrick, can they all take that next step now that they're ascending into those starting roles?
That's the question. You don't really know until it happens. Now, I think at defensive end, I'm cautiously optimistic about that defensive end group.
I think the potential for that defensive end group is very high. I mean, if you would have asked us two years ago, we probably would have guessed that Caden Curry and Kenyatta Jackson would be Ohio State starting defensive ends last year, because we probably would have bought Jack Sawyer and JT to a mole. Wow.
Would have already been in the NFL. And so I think those are both guys who have waited their turn. They played pretty well.
Not, you know, huge impact. But I think if they played well enough when they've gotten called upon, like you said, I think especially for Kenyatta, that's the guy I think they're really looking for to step up and be the star of that group. But I think that if, you know, if Kenyatta and Caden can take that next step, if CJ Hicks can become an impact player in that role, and then if Logan George can make a successful transition from the FCS to the Big Ten, then I think you have the potential to have a really good four man rotation.
And I think, you know, ideally, if CJ Hicks and Logan George both become what you think they can be, then you're not putting quite as much on the plate of Kenyatta and Caden as you were for Jack and JT. I mean, Jack and JT were so good that it was like they didn't want to take them off the field much. But you think back to, you know, early years of Larry Johnson, a lot of times his best defensive lines came when he was rotating four guys at that defensive end spot.
So I think ideally, you know, that that's probably where you want to get to. If CJ Hicks and Logan George can become guys you can really rely on, then you have four guys that you can really rotate at that defensive end spot. Or like I said, it might, you know, to put Logan George and CJ Hicks in the same conversation, they're going to play the same position group.
They're probably not going to play the same kind of role. They're very different players. You know, Logan George is going to be more of that hand-in-the-dirt kind of guy.
He and Caden Curry, both guys, they could even kick inside. You know, they're both guys that have the size. They could kick inside and play a five tech role.
If you're playing a free man front. Whereas CJ, he's going to be a guy, if you're playing a free man front, he's going to be that guy playing outside as like a rush linebacker. So the roles for some of those guys are going to be different.
But I think collectively, if all four of them can become the players you think they can be, you have the potential for a really good defensive end quartet there. I think when I think about depth concerns on this team, defensive tackle is number one for me. When I think about positions we may be talking about in a month that Ohio State needs to look at it post-spring portal, defensive tackle is number one for me.
And I think that's going to be a big question mark this spring is between Jason Moore, Tywon Malone, Will Smith Jr., you know, Eric Mensah, the freshmen that are coming in. Can two or three guys in that group emerge as guys they can count on? As if not, then I think that position becomes a potential problem position.
Because, you know, that's another position you ideally want to rotate. It's hard for guys to play, you know, 50, 60 snaps a game. Tyleek and Ty showed they could do it last year and they did it really well.
But these are two guys you're putting into those positions who don't have experience doing that. So if you have to rely on Caden and Edrick to play 50, 60 snaps a game, is that going to be a recipe for success? I don't know about that.
And so, you know, I think, you know, if Jason Moore and Will Smith Jr. and Tywon Malone can all make jumps this offseason and become players you can rely on, you might be okay. If that doesn't happen, then a guy like Hiro Kanu leaving could suddenly loom large. And so I think that's a definite position for me that I'm going to be looking at this spring.
Not even so much for starters, because I'm pretty confident Edrick and Caden will be the starters, but it's can those guys behind them provide quality depth to where you can have a rotation there?
[Andy Anders]
Yeah, especially, you know, Caden McDonald, when you talk about weighing 325 pounds, it is hard to play that many snaps in the game and still bring the same punch, the same drive. And I really like Caden McDonald's game. He's someone I'm really excited to see have a starting role next year because he's got a quick first step at that size and you can just you can blow up so much and even make a lot of plays people don't notice per se at the nose guard spot.
Speaking as a former nose guard, I guess a little biased there, but Caden, I really like his game on the interior and I think he showed it a lot in the goal line defense because they would bring him in on a lot of those goal line packages. And we know how good Ohio State's goal line defense was this year. As the man in the middle, as the nose guard, and they kind of slide tie out a little bit to have that three defensive tackle core on the inside as most goal line defensive fronts go.
And he blew up several plays. I mean, the Penn State game, he had one where he trucked the center back and blew up a pulling guard that was coming in motion from outside the formation and stuffed a Penn State run that way. And Penn State ends up failing there on a goal line stand that, in part, seals the game by the defense.
He showed flashes in those moments in other short yardage plays. I don't know what his ceiling is as a pass rusher, but in terms of a run defender, in terms of a block eating, gap stuffing, just powerhouse of a defensive tackle, I really like what Cade McDonald's going to bring to the table. Elsewhere on the defense, I think one of the more interesting positions to watch for me is Nickel because I'm not exactly sure how, like, Lorenzo Stiles Jr. is the front runner for that spot, but how much is it going to be, is Ohio State going to stick to a slot corner for that role when Jordan Hancock's versatility, and yes, Jordan Hancock was a corner, but his ability to slide back and play safety was such a huge boon for their defense in the second half of the season, allowing Caleb Downs to come down, play that 10 to 12 yard off the ball middle of the field role that I think he saw his best success in.
The defense had some of its best games in, using a lot of those shells and formations. I really think that there's a chance, a realistic chance, that Ohio State does opt for some three safety looks this year, especially when I was really impressed, I think we were both really impressed with the strides Jalen McClain made last year and what he could be in year two, or even Malik Hartford coming into year three. You could, I think there's definitely an argument that if those guys show the right things in spring and summer, that they deserve to be on the field with Caleb Downs, both of them, even in certain, just a few certain packages come fall.
But then also you've got Devin Sanchez coming in who, you know, Jeremiah Smith ahead of last year was a freshman that you said, this is a guy that is going to be, that could be too good to not start, not get serious playing time as a freshman. And by the end of spring, it was clear. He was going to be a starting wide receiver for Ohio State.
[Dan Hope]
By the end of the first practice, it was clear. It did not take long to realize, oh, this guy is one of the best, maybe the best. I mean, I remember, I remember saying it to you like during the spring, like I think this guy might be the best player on the team.
And it seems crazy at the time. And guess what? He was the best player on the team.
[Andy Anders]
He was the best player on the team. So Devin Sanchez is in that same mold, man. I could be at least right.
We need to see it in at least spring practice first before we make that proclamation. And I think there's also a little, there's more roadblocks to playing time at corner this year than there were at receiver last year for Jeremiah where, you know, Carnell and Brandon were coming into their second seasons at receiver, but Jeremiah was still in a spot where he could really challenge for playing time as a freshman there after the departure of Marvin Harrison Jr. And I think that Devin is, they have two great outside corners I think that are clearly in line to play those roles. And that's Davis and Igbenosin and Jermaine Matthews. But what you could do feasibly, and Jermaine has come up in the discussions for nickel is bump Jermaine into that nickel spot.
And then you plug Devin Sanchez in on the outside because talk about the number one cornerback prospect in the country, a top 10 guy and just one of the most fluid, dynamic, excellent athletes you've ever seen has good length at the position. He's been, he's run blazing a hundred meter dash times and his athleticism is just off the charts. It's crazy.
And he's a, I love watching his film too because corner is such a technical position and similar to how Jeremiah was already showing incredible polish on his tape playing in a really difficult South Florida scene for receivers, really hyper competitive. And it breeds really polished prospects. Texas has always been that where Devin Sanchez comes from.
And I think his abilities is polished, right? That's how you get on the field. You're one as a freshman, like Ohio state signs extremely talented prospects all the time.
But to get on the field as a freshman, you've got to come in with good technical polish. And that's what I see a lot of on tape from Devin Sanchez. He knows when to turn his hips, open the gate.
He knows how to bump and run already. A lot of the technical elements of a very technical cornerback position. And that I think will only grow as he works with Tim Walton.
That's why I think he could be someone you just can't keep off the field as a freshman. And so then that changes the equation at nickel changes, the equation at corner, and maybe sliding Jermaine in because you return Davidson. He's going to be a star for the defense.
Jermaine's waited his turn and shown excellent flashes. His first two seasons. It's clear.
He's part of the plan. This is a big spring for Lorenzo styles, junior. You transferred from Notre Dame switched positions.
I think in a lot of ways for this year five payoff, where you have your, your one shot to become the guy at nickel for Ohio state. Can you stamp your claim on that? And say, Devin, you're going to be great, but next year, or even Devin pushes someone, one of the outside guys, I don't know, but it's a big spring for Lorenzo styles, junior.
And in a very interesting spring to see exactly what happens at the nickel position.
[Dan Hope]
Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, if Devin Sanchez is Jeremiah Smith good as a freshman, he will play. He will start.
They will find a way to make it work. You're not going to, if he's that good, you're not going to keep him off field. Now we'll see if he's that good.
That's an incredibly high bar to clear, but I do fully suspect that Devin Sanchez is going to play a big role on this year's defense. What exactly that's going to look like. I don't know yet, but I think that, you know, he has that talent, but it's very likely he's going to force his way into a role in year one.
I think, you know, when you talk about the secretary, what do we know? I mean, first and foremost, we know Caleb downs is going to be a centerpiece of that secondary, everything they do as a defense period. What Matt Patricia does schematically is going to be built around Caleb downs.
He's that good that everything you do is going to be built around number two. I think we know Davidson's going to play a big role. And I think we fully expect that Jermaine is going to play a big role.
I think we can also say is there's going to be free cornerback looks and there's going to be free safety looks. It's, it's not an either or proposition there. It's not going to be, they're only going to play with free corners or they're only going to play free safeties.
They're going to do some of both. Now they had the ideal guy last year in Jordan Hancock and that he could play both roles without having to substitute. I think that's one of the big questions is do they have that guy with that kind of flexibility where they can shift seamlessly from cornerback to safety looks without having to substitute personnel.
That's what we don't know. I think Lorenzo styles junior has a chance to be that guy, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it, we ultimately end up at a point where their primary cornerback lineup is Davidson and Devon on the outside Jermaine at slot corner. And then when they want to use more of a free safety look, it's Davidson and either Jermaine or Devon at corner with Caleb Jalen, Jalen McClain and Malik Hartford in there as the free safeties.
I think that you, you could see that where it becomes more of two or three different personnel packages with Lorenzo maybe having some kind of role in there as well, because, you know, I do think based on what we've seen from Lorenzo, I think we've seen some good things. I think there's a big jump that's going to need to happen this spring in Somerville for him to become Jordan Hancock, not saying he can't do it. I mean, he's only been playing corner at the college level for two years because he was a wide receiver when he started Notre Dame.
So it's, he could certainly become their next Jordan Hancock. I don't know if he's there yet. I think this spring is going to be telling.
I don't think Ohio state even really knows yet exactly what that secondary is going to look like, except for the fact that it's all going to revolve around number two. But I think that how Lorenzo develops this spring, you know, how Jermaine develops a spring, how Devon develops a spring, how Jalen McClain develops a spring, how Malik Hartford developed this spring, all of those things and how those guys perform this spring are then going to instruct a lot of the conversations that take place between Matt Patricia and Tim Walton and Matt Guerrero this summer about what that secondary and, and how they, how they align it, who their starters should be will ultimately look like in the fall.
[Andy Anders]
I think the good news as you're answering these questions, and we have the most uncertainty with depth wise, at least with the defensive line, we have a lot of questions how it's going to play out. There's a lot of talented pieces though. I think regardless of how it shakes out, I expect Ohio state secondary to be really good if nothing else, because again, they have number two back there this year.
But another, I think position you can take confidence in for Ohio state this season is linebacker and entering the spring. Sonny Stiles, we talked about him being the most improved player defensively for Ohio state throughout the course of 2024. And I think that the leaps he took just in terms of his comfort at the position, ability to read and react.
And by the end of the season, you know, the start of the season, it looked like he didn't have the picture that he just wasn't seeing things in that linebacker mold after moving down from safety. But by the end of the year, man, that Texas game, he had an excellent performance outside of the touchdown. He allows on a wheel route there in the first half, but outside of that, you know, nine tackles and three TFLs in that game.
I thought it was a big statement of what he can be this year with another year of development at that linebacker spot. Because again, remember he started his first two seasons at Ohio state. We're at safety.
And Cody Simon was a big loss for this team. Don't get me wrong. And Cody, I've written about Cody talked about how big and how important Cody was for the team last year.
But I really like our Val Reese's skill set at Mike. And I think he showed a lot playing in those four, three packages, even rotating in sometimes passing CJ Hicks on the depth chart last year to give you good confidence that he's going to be a real weapon for Ohio state in that position. I think spring will be interesting a little bit to determine if it is specifically our bell at Mike and Sonny at will, because James Florinitis kind of raised the possibility on Friday that, hey, both those guys can play both positions.
Sonny played Mike at the start of last season when Cody Simon was out. Sonny is the lead leader in many ways of Ohio state's linebacker core. And one of its team leaders in general, Cody Simon, you were talking to him at the NFL scouting combine, and he had mentioned that he thinks Sonny Stiles is going to wear the block Oh Jersey for Ohio state next year and be a team captain.
So Sonny could end up playing that Mike and our bell being at the well, although I would accept, I would more expect it to be our bell at the Mike and Sonny at the well, just because that's the positions they played last year. And then I, I think there's a lot of reason to be confident in the depth of linebacker too, because Peyton Pierce has been talked up a lot since arriving at Ohio state missed last year's spring practice, his freshman year spring practice with a leg injury. But by the end of the season, I think was already drawing a lot of praise from James Laurenitis.
And when again, talking to James on Friday, it was kind of this delineation of it's Sonny, our bell and Peyton. And then the next wave of guys, he he's looking for people to step up, but there's a lot of good young talent in that linebacker room to Peyton's only in his second year. So throw him in that mix, but you have Garrett Stover entering year two cousin of Kate Stover.
I think there's things to like in his game. James Laurenitis brought in a really good linebacker hall. And I think Riley Pettijohn and Tarvis Allford are both candidates for early playing time.
If they can make an impact, Riley Pettijohn's a ridiculous athlete there and was a top 50 prospect, almost a five star. So linebacker to me as a position, you can take a lot of confidence in for this defense. I think they have a lot of great pieces to look at there, even behind Sonny and our bell and how that's going to coalesce and play off the defensive line will be a boost to that position as well, because they're going to need, I think that flow as they break in new pieces, specifically at defensive tackle.
When you talk about Caden and Ed Drake, and that lack of depth, maybe that we mentioned earlier, we spent just about the whole show talking about the defense.
[Dan Hope]
We got to talk a little bit about the quarterback competition going into spring practice. Is that certainly going to be the other major storyline that people are going to be following this spring? That competition will feature Julian Sayan, Lincoln Kienholz, and Tavian St. Clair trying to establish themselves as Ohio State's next quarterback, replacing Will Howard after he led Ohio State to a national championship. And I think we both agree that Julian Sayan is the front runner to be the starting quarterback for Ohio State this year. We anticipate that's probably how it will end up, but also believe that there are things that Julian Sayan needs to show this spring to prove that he is ready to be the starting quarterback. Andy, what are the things that you feel like you need to see personally from Julian Sayan this spring to feel confident that he's ready to be Ohio State's starting quarterback?
[Andy Anders]
Yeah, to borrow some good old coach speak, I think it's consistency for me. We saw in practice some of the best throws any Ohio State quarterbacks made, again, in the practices we watched. I'm not going to like try to lump in practice throws with Will Howard's throws on the national title run as best throws for the season.
But in practice, some of the best throws we saw, maybe the best throws we saw because we didn't see Will Howard's best practices in the back half of preseason camp, were Julian Sayan dotting up some people, whether it was over the middle, on the sideline, he made a lot of good throws. And yet in the spring game, he didn't really show that to the public. He kind of didn't have a great spring game.
There were some other practices where he had some inconsistencies and struggled that we saw. So it is about like another year, year one, year two for a quarterback in a Ryan day offense is a big jump. It's supposed to be because it is a very intricate passing game.
The timing, how you deliver the ball. There's no doubt in Julian's arm talent. The other thing I want to see from him is maybe add a little bit more weight, bulk up a little bit because size, I don't think it's as big an issue as big a concern.
In college as it is the NFL, but you're still going to be taking some hits. Julian came in as a smaller prospect. I think he's going to want to bulk up a little bit and try to also add some escape ability to his game.
At least, you know, that's not an element we've seen tested yet in practice. It's not in contact, but that's an important part of it too. Like the ability, you don't have to be a running quarterback.
You don't have to be Mike Vick out there, but I want to see him be able to extend a play, get off a throw, do some of those things with his feet. And excellent footwork is so key at the quarterback position too. Those are kind of the things I'm looking for from Julian this spring, because we know he has the arm talent.
Are you delivering accurate balls consistently? Have you put on some weight to bear the brunt of a long season? And do you have the feet to extend plays when you need?
[Dan Hope]
Yeah, I think we're certainly hoping we're going to get to watch those scrimmages this spring and we'll see how much actual scrimmaging takes place in the spring showcase at Ohio stadium. But I think those moments could be the most telling for Julian saying, because we know the passing ability is there. The ability to, you know, throw those beautiful balls is there, but that sounded funny, didn't it?
Just say that. But yeah, I was like, that one, that one's going to go over well. Yeah.
That came out interestingly, but yeah, the ability to throw those beautiful passes is there, but can he do it consistently in those scrimmage situations? Can he move the ball down the field? Can he make the right decisions and, you know, avoid turnovers?
Can he, you know, just, you know, deliver in those pressure situations because, you know, he, he did struggle a lot last year in the spring game. I think he struggled for the most part in those brief opportunities he got to play during the season. Now, granted, those were basically all backup offensive line, backup receivers.
It's going to be different when you're going behind the first team offensive line and you've got Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and Brandon Ennis out there. And so I think that Julian, you know, I think, I think the upside is very high and, you know, the fact that he didn't play much last year does not preclude him from anything. I mean, CJ Stroud didn't throw a single pass as a true freshman, and then he was a Heisman finalist for next year.
And so everything's possible for Julian, but I think, you know, to see strides, to see clear signs of growth from him, from where he was a year ago, because we really haven't gotten an extended look at him since preseason camp, you know, to see, is he bigger, you know, is he more consistent? Is he making good decisions, avoiding turnovers? All of those things are going to be big in terms of building that confidence for him to be the starting quarterback for Ohio state in 2025.
I think, you know, the good news is he's going to have a lot of talent around him. You know, I think like, we're not even really going to talk much about Jeremiah Smith here because he's probably not going to practice a ton this spring because they're going to want to keep him healthy and he doesn't have anything to prove this spring. It's all going to be what he does and the actual games.
I think, you know, wide receiver in general, like that's a position that, uh, I'm sure of a talent's going to pop at times, but you know, how much are we really going to be like watching those starters this spring? It's going to be more about what they do in the games this fall. I think when you think about receivers, it's going to be a guy like Mylon Graham, who my eyes are going to go to the most to see, is he a guy that kind of like we talked about with Devin Sanchez, can he prove he's too good not to be on the field this year?
Can he prove, you know, we talked about it last week with Garrick, you know, if he's bet number four receiver, how much playing time will that lead to that might depend on whether he proves he's so good that he needs to be on the field getting those reps because he's going to have to, I mean, to take, we've heard Brian Hartline say it before. If I take my starter off the field for you, you've got to be able to do all the things those guys can do. And you know what?
Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate can do a whole lot of things. And so if you're going to take snaps away from those guys, you, you, you've got to be the real deal. And so I think this is going to be a big spring for Mylon Graham to, you know, make a push for playing time, prove he belongs on the field.
I mean, certainly the tight ends are going to be intriguing to watch just because there's, you know, so much talent there, you know, Max Claire coming in to see what kind of target he can become in the passing game. Will spring give us ideas about his usage? You know, how much will we see them use, you know, 12 personnel and all that this spring.
I mean, they've got so many tight ends. I mean, you've got a guy like Jelani Furman who we've talked up a lot the last couple of years. He's going to be fighting just for a spot.
I'm a three deep at tight end because they have Max Claire coming in with Wilkes Merritt coming back and Bennett Christian coming back. And so a very, very deep tight end room there. That's going to be fun to watch, you know, certainly at running back.
We're going to be watching to see, you know, can James peoples, a guy Andy is very high on. Will he, you know, assert himself? Will he live up to that hype?
Assert himself as that lead back for Ohio state. You know, what will CJ Donaldson look like? You know, can Bo Jackson, Sam Williams, Dixon, Isaiah West.
Can any of those guys push for playing times this spring? But as you said before, Andy, it always all starts up front. The offensive line, always going to be a big area of focus.
I do feel like I come into this spring feeling good about this offensive line compared to where maybe we've been in some past years, because I think with Luke Montgomery, Carson, Hinsman, Tegra, Shibola, Austin, Sierra belt inside, that's four guys who all got extremely valuable experience last year. I'm a CFP. Now you want to see them grow.
You want to see them become more dominant players. And this is a spring. I feel like usually in the spring, we see the defensive line dominate the offensive line.
I think this spring, you kind of want to see it go the other way because you have such a young, inexperienced defensive line. You want to see this offensive line win a lot of those battles. And you want to see the defensive line win some battles too, because you want to see those guys are coming along, but you know, can Luke and Carson and Tegra and Austin, can they really show those strides to go from being good players to great players?
And then at offensive tackle, can Ethan and Phillip Daniels come in and lock down starting jobs? Or does a guy like Ian Moore push for a spot in the starting lineup?
[Andy Anders]
Yeah. And tackle depth is again, every season it feels like it's a concern, but it's a concern again this year, because I don't know, like you want Phillip Daniels to hit in a good way. You don't have a lot of tape on him.
He only started four games at Minnesota. Talent's there. Obviously you saw enough to bring him in and the expectation is he'll be the starting right tackle.
But like you said, Ian Moore can make a push beyond that. They're pretty thin at offensive tackle this year. And so I I'm curious if they kind of take a feeler in spring and maybe consider bringing in one more tackle from the portal just for depth purposes in the next transfer window.
I don't necessarily, I think it's hard to get an offensive lineman who would compete for a starting job in the second window, but certainly at least worth looking at for depth reasons. If you don't like what's there, how guys are progressing in the spring. We've talked about running back before, but again, I just, I really think the ceiling of some of what this run game can be.
And certainly what the running back tandem itself can be is how far does James people's go? What does your two look like for him? Because you just know what you're getting with CJ Donaldson dependable, never fumbled in his career, has a really bruising mentality at that running back position, 230 pounds between the tackles work in short yardage.
It's going to average right around four and a half yards per carry. That's what he did each of the last two seasons of West Virginia. And so, you know what you're getting there.
The ceiling for me of that running back tandem of Ohio state's running game lies in James people's, but you know, I, I am still very excited to watch that guard battle too. And who exactly are your two guards? Cause I think Carson Hinsman is going to be the center barring a huge surge from Josh Padilla that would maybe bump him down to guard.
And then you only have one guard spot open for competition between Taker Chabula, Austin Sarah Bell and Luke Montgomery. But to me, Luke is the front runner at left guard. I think he showed the most in the playoff run and especially those last two games when he was like full time, starting left guard, no longer rotating with the other two.
It feels like Luke is delivering on a lot of his recruiting promise now. And in a position to emerge, even as a star on Ohio state's offensive line at left guard this year, who, where is Austin Sarah Bell? Where is Taker Chabula?
Can those guys take the next step? And does one of them submit himself as the guy at right guard or with Luke Montgomery? If Luke Montgomery wins that left guard battle or does this drag into preseason camp?
Or do we see a rotation like we did last year? I mean, it's not very common at offensive line, but it worked for Ohio state in 2024. Maybe they roll again in 2025 and that's what their careers will be with each other.
I think that's the offense has a lot of intrigue too, but definitely more question marks. I feel like on the defensive side of the ball here entering spring for Ohio state. And it's, it's just all the newness surrounding this team that I think gets me the most excited as compared to last season.
[Dan Hope]
Yeah, it's going to be a very interesting spring and we will be talking a lot more about spring football over the next four to five weeks here on real pod Wednesdays as Ohio state will begin spring practice on Monday, practice 15 times over the following four weeks, culminating with that spring showcase on April 12th. Of course, Ohio state basketball also in a make or break do or die. You used the term do or die earlier.
This is certainly a do or die week for the Ohio state men's basketball team starting tonight when Ohio state plays Iowa in the first round of the big 10 tournament. I think we can say this firmly. If Ohio state loses to Iowa tonight, it is out.
It will not make the big 10 tournament or it will not make the NCAA tournament. I think if Ohio state can beat Iowa tonight and Illinois tomorrow, Ohio state will make the NCAA tournament. If Ohio state beats Iowa tonight, but loses to Illinois tomorrow, it's going to be a very close conversation for Ohio state.
Andy, as we sit here on the verge of the big 10 tournament beginning, just what's your feel on what needs to happen for a Buckeyes this week and what ultimately might happen in the end?
[Andy Anders]
Yeah, there's a lot of thoughts swirling about Ohio state basketball right now. For me, you know, I think big picture stuff is saved for after Ohio state knows his NCAA tournament fate. And if it makes the NCAA tournament, then after the NCAA tournament, probably because there's a lot, you know, to discuss around, I think the future of the program, what needs to approve for next year, all these kinds of things sticking with where they're at right now, a surprising majority of the bracket projections that are aggregated on bracket matrix, which is the site I use a lot for kind of figuring out where Ohio state stands broadly in the NCAA tournament conversation. A vast majority of them still have them in the tournament, even after that lost to Indiana, which was a little surprising, but I understand they have still have a very high net ranking, bought a quad one wins a very tough schedule that they've played, which benefits them.
But I I'm with you, Dan lose to Iowa tonight. I think you're firmly out your overall record matters less than it ever has. I think for the NCAA tournament, but their record would be 17 and 15 at that point.
And I just can't see that being a tournament team, but also, you know, it's another quad to loss. It's another, just you've ended the regular season and then your post season ended in a pretty disappointing way, which I think definitely always when you talk about a selection committee, recency bias is a thing. So for a lot of reasons, I would say they're firmly out if they lose to Iowa tonight, especially because like all the bracket projections aren't going to factor in bid stealers and teams that win conference tournaments that claim bids to the NCAA tournament.
When other teams who were going to get in that large, but anyway, we're supposed to win those tournaments. This happens every NCAA tournament selection season. You all know this for Ohio state to make a run in the big 10 tournament and beat Iowa, which would be a quad to win beat Illinois, which would be a quad one win position themselves.
Well, I think it comes down to the play of their bigs for me, first and foremost, because it seems like, and while they weren't against Indiana, but a lot of nights you can count on a few of your stars to step up between the four that have been Ohio state's big four this year, essentially Bruce Thornton, Micah Parrish, John Mobley Jr. and Devin Royal. But at that center position, it has been really bad for stretches of this season. Aaron Bradshaw has gone from 9.6 rebounds for 40 minutes, which is solid. It's okay, I guess for a center, maybe to last year to 6.2 this year. As a seven footer, it's just not where it needs to be for him. It's disappointing watching games and seeing him.
I don't know if it's a lack of awareness. I don't know if it's a lack of effort. Jake has said that he thinks it's the former that it's, it's just, Aaron's just not staying aware, but you got to box out, man.
I mean, you learn this stuff in junior high and his defense has been really bad too. Not to harp too much on one guy, because there's myriad issues with this team right now. Sean Stewart's foul trouble, because when Sean's on the floor, he's actually been playing really good of late.
But he continues to foul out of games and get too early in the first half and miss a bunch of minutes. And then Ohio State misses him because they got to turn to Aaron, who has some good offensive things, but he's again, lacking on the defensive and rebounding side. And Austin Parks and Ivan Yagovin aren't where they need to be to contribute.
So the center position has been really, really rough for Ohio State of late. And it needs to be at its best. Like, I'm not expecting Sean and Aaron to live up to their five-star billing at any point this season.
You know, they are what they are at this point. But if Sean can stay out of foul trouble, if Aaron can pick up his rebounding just to where it was last year, I think you like your chances against Iowa, who you blew out earlier in the season. Bruce needs to have a better night than he had against Indiana, too.
he just, him and John Mobley Jr. shot five for 21 combined in that game. That can't happen from your star guard tandem. Just can't happen.
So, like, we've talked about it before. This team only really has four good scoring options. And if multiple of them are off on a given night, they struggle to score the ball.
And that's a lot of what happened against Indiana because, you know, Micah Parrish and Devin Royal had a good game, but Bruce Thornton and John Mobley Jr. had a bad game. And so, you need, that's the formula. You need three of those four, three of your four scoring stars, you know, one of them can have an off night, but three of your four scoring stars need to be on for both Iowa and Illinois, and you need better play out of the center position.
And I think that's, that's what Ohio State needs to do what needs done in the Big Ten tournament. And it's tough that they're entering it in this position because they've had so many one score games, better late game execution. There's another one, I guess you could add to the list because they've not, they've had a lot of close, a lot more close losses than close wins this year.
So those would be the things I'd say Ohio State needs to tackle to reach that NCAA tournament plateau. I guess you will.
[Dan Hope]
Well, it's certainly going to be an interesting week for Ohio State men's basketball. We'll find out both the men's and women's NCAA tournament brackets on Sunday. Women, most of the projections I'm seeing right now projected to be a number four seed, which would mean hosting first and rounds, first and second round games at the Schottenstein center for a third straight year, though it is possible they could drop to a five seed.
They, you know, like the men's team did not have the best finish to the year, still very comfortably in the tournament could still be one of those top 16 seeds and, and host. But I think, you know, they are going to, they've got some things they've got to work through as well over the next couple of weeks, if they're going to have a chance to make an NCAA tournament run. And so we'll be talking about at least one Ohio State basketball team in the NCAA tournament next week, hopefully two, but of course we'll also be talking a lot about spring football because spring football will be well underway by the time we talk to you again next week on real pod Wednesday.
So thanks for joining us. We hope you'll join us again.