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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Charlie Horner (00:01.853)
Hello and welcome back to iGaming Daily and part two of our deep dive into black market issues. Yesterday we looked at the role of influencers and the Manosphere and today we're going to take a look at sports sponsorship and ask how this summer's pivot away from gambling sponsorship might impact the football pyramid and change the way that iGaming brands reach fans. Welcome back to iGaming Daily supported by Optimove, the creator of Positions Marketing.
and the number one player engagement solution for sports betting and iGaming operators. I'm Charlie Horner, and once again I'm joined by SBC's media director Martin Elliott and editor at large Ted Menmer. Martin, how's things?
Martyn Elliott (00:47.75)
Yeah, very good, thanks. You've asked me here to talk about football, so what's not to like?
Charlie Horner (00:48.093)
Yeah, we did that. We've asked him here at Covid-19 Football Club, so it was not like. Very good. Ted, how are you? Are ready to talk football?
Ted Menmuir (01:00.586)
always came prepared guys
Charlie Horner (01:02.909)
Okay, let's start this then by just setting the scene and getting a bit of an overview of the sponsorship deals in football at the moment. Who is most exposed to gambling sponsorships and their termination?
Yeah, just before I introduced you.
Charlie Horner (01:42.877)
Okay, let's start by setting the scene and getting a bit of an overview of some of the sponsorship deals in football at the moment when it comes to gambling. Who's most exposed to gambling sponsorships after they terminate in the Premier League this summer, I guess?
Martin would you like to give us a bit of an overview? Well the big losers are going to be the sort of big-level Premier League clubs who still rely on gambling for the front of shirt deals. They're the gift for ones to replace, are not that many companies that Premier League's contract really works for.
Martyn Elliott (02:04.08)
you like to a bit of an overview? Sure. Well, the big the big losers are going to be the sort of mid-level Premier League clubs who still rely on gambling for the front of shirt deals. You know, that is they're the difficult ones to replace. There are not that many club. There are not that many companies that Premier League sponsorship really works for. You have to be
Charlie Horner (02:33.117)
It's priced to reflect the fact that the Premier League has watched it over the world, those fucking shit girls.
Martyn Elliott (02:35.192)
It's priced to reflect the fact that the Premier League is watched all over the world, those sponsorship deals. So limited numbers of companies, know, it's airlines and things like that. Some of those clubs are going to find it pretty difficult to replace it, I think, or replace it for the same amount of money that they get. And then I think every Premier League club will have a number of
Charlie Horner (02:45.437)
limited numbers of companies to various airlines and things like that. Some of those problems can find it pretty difficult to replace it. I think all replace it for the same amount of money that they get. And then I think every Premier League club will have a number of gambler partners some way down the list of partners on their website.
Martyn Elliott (03:04.868)
a number of gambling partners some way down the list of partners on their website. They might be sleeve sponsors or training kit sponsors, or sometimes they're just regional sponsors that you have their branding on the digital boards and so on. So every Premier League club will lose a little bit.
Charlie Horner (03:11.017)
It might be slave sponsors or training kit sponsors or sometimes they're regional sponsors that you have the brand new digital boards and so on. So every Premier League will lose a little bit. Particularly if the government actually follows through with this idea that operators without a UK license will not.
Martyn Elliott (03:30.532)
particularly if the government actually follows through with this idea that operators without a UK license will not have access to any kind of football sponsorship, hopefully from next season. the government takes so long to do everything. Our legislative process is really slow, whatever we want to do. So that might be a couple of years realistically. yeah, the big losers, any of the Premier League clubs that have the front of shirt sponsorship.
Charlie Horner (03:38.269)
have access to any kind of football sponsorship. Hopefully from next season. The government takes so long to do everything. Our legislative process is really slow, whatever we want to do. So that might be a couple of years realistically. the big losers, any Premier League clubs that have the front of shirt sponsorship with the gambling company at the moment, of which there are many, often with brands I've never heard of to be previous.
Martyn Elliott (03:59.312)
with a gambling company at the moment of which there are many, often with brands I've never heard of to be perfectly honest. Yeah, there's a mix in that. think half the Premier League has a gambling sponsor. That's a mix of licensed brands and then some of those non-UK facing brands. Yes, seven to my count with front of sponsor.
Charlie Horner (04:08.028)
Yeah, there's a mix in there. think half of the Premier League has a gambling front of shirt sponsor. That's a mix of licensed brands and then some of those non-UK facing brands. Yes, seven to my count with front of shirt sponsorships with sort of unlicensed brands in the UK. That's Ballneth, Burnley, Crystal Palace, Everton, Fulham, Sunderland and Wolves.
Ted Menmuir (04:23.533)
Mm-hmm.
Martyn Elliott (04:25.562)
front of shirts sponsorships with sort of unlicensed brands in the UK that's Bournemouth Burnley, Crystal Palace, Everton, Fuller, Sunderland and Wolves. Not all of them but some of them are related to...
Charlie Horner (04:36.823)
Not all of them, but some of them are related to TGP Europe, which sort of collapsed last year. Ted, we reported on this at SBC News. What happened to TGP Europe and I guess why are some of these brands still promoting themselves on Premier League football shirts?
Ted Menmuir (05:03.928)
The Gammon Commission pushed an enforcement TGP Europe out of the GB market and DCMS and SINCE announced a consultation on stopping unlicensed operators from entering sponsorship agreements with British football clubs.
But I think what's happened in that phase, kind of its transition from, you know, an actual enforcement to actually just going into another round of policy, the government's position and where the clubs are, it can't really.
process any kind of laws there and so therefore kind of the visibility of these brands still exists. Now what I tell to our audiences is that come next season it really should be kind of viewed as kind of a new platform or the start of a new relationship between regulated brands and premiership clubs and
whatever kind of the outcome, think it's a better place than what it has been in the past. I think that the terms of the sponsorships are much clearer now and what you can do and how can you engage with fans in an actual match days too. Also, I think that it kind of removes or should remove the betting partnerships from the spotlight or the media scrutiny that they have been with the Premier League. I think that should be welcomed too.
Charlie Horner (06:27.323)
Yeah, we know that Entain has positioned itself as a key fighter in this battle from the regulated sector. think Stella David called Bournemouth versus Sunderland last month, the black market derby, which is interesting. Why do you think licensed operators are actively joining that sort of public debate on this? Do they think that, you know, some of the, for example, the...
increased tax rates, increased regulation gives them a bit more of a platform to fight from or is it more desperation? What do you think it is? Martin, do you have thoughts on this one? Yeah, I think it's quite right. They should be vocal about this stuff. It costs a lot of money to be regulated. The license fee is salad.
Martyn Elliott (07:08.371)
Yeah, I say to Stella David quite right. Quite right. The regulated operator should be vocal about this stuff. It costs a lot of money to be regulated. know, whether that is the license fee itself, the huge number of compliance professionals a lot of these companies have to employ to meet all the requirements. There's our favourite subject on this podcast, taxation.
Charlie Horner (07:24.889)
There's our favourite podcast, Taxation, course. It should be pointed out that it's unfair and frankly illegal, it should be illegal for the people who not paying the taxes, they're not paying the licence fees and so on to have that visibility in the marketplace. You know, why should they?
Martyn Elliott (07:34.47)
Of course, they should be pointing out that it's unfair and frankly illegal, should be illegal for the people who not paying the taxes, they're not paying the licence fees and so on to have that visibility in the marketplace. You know, why should they? I think they're great at standing up for it. And as we move into the much higher tax regime that is coming in,
Ted Menmuir (07:53.068)
Yeah.
Charlie Horner (07:54.045)
I think the great standing up for it and as we into the much higher tax regime that's coming in for both sort of online casino and the years time for online testing, know, the costs of simply going up for the regulatory operators, you know, well, well done for sticking up for themselves in public for once. Yeah, you say for once. Sorry, Ted. Go ahead.
Martyn Elliott (08:04.432)
for both sort of online casino and in a year's time for online betting, the costs are simply going up for the regulated operators. Well done for sticking up for themselves in public for once. Yeah, you say for once. Sorry, Ted.
Ted Menmuir (08:19.63)
I think, so just to follow on from Martin, I think prior to these changes, I think the big appeal season would have tolerated fine, they got to do their bigger deals with the Premier League clubs, and then as Martin said, the mid-tears could look out for smaller Asian-face thing. But I think in terms of...
everything that's happened over the last five years it had to get to this point where enough is enough and you can't be there's this you know there's rules for the regulated guys versus the guys who kind of clearly kind of in breach and have no interest whatsoever in being part of the uk's regulated market
Again, I think that we're of returning back to of ground zero in that relationship between sports betting and football and how it of resets from 2027 onwards.
Charlie Horner (09:21.831)
think the natural follow-up question to this then is, why did it take so long for the regulated sector to find the confidence to speak up?
Ted Menmuir (09:32.206)
I don't think at the time it needed to and I think like they would just do you know you just got along with marketing and I think under the sensitivities were kind of already there and also even talking to people in industry marketing they knew that there were you know bad sponsorships there but they just accepted them as being bad sponsorships what we've never known is like I mean we keep on being sold that
You if you do a deal with a Hong Kong bookmaker, I don't know how much traffic they generate or, know, how much presence they get, but it's also the relationship of where the premiership went to. Like, you know, it pitches itself as a global league and for global audiences. And, there was never kind of any pushback about, know, getting kind of these Asian facing bookmakers from their behalf. never saw kind of anyone at the top deck of the primary go like I've had enough of these, you know, advertising sponsorships.
There should be a general standard for who can promote on Premier League front of shirts regardless of whether they're betting or not.
Charlie Horner (10:39.375)
I think it is safe to say that a lot of these brands are not trying to attract UK players, they are targeting those Asian facing customers. We'll take a quick break, Ted and Martin, and we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit about the future.
Charlie Horner (10:57.645)
Welcome back to iGaming Daily. We know that the Premier League is introducing a voluntary ban on gambling front of shirt partnerships at the end of this current season. Do we have any inclination of what industries might come in and fill that gap because Premier League clubs are reliant on gambling cash essentially for their sponsorship income? We know how important these sponsorship agreements are for clubs at the minute with
all these cost controls and profit and sustainability rules. And apart from the big six clubs, basically everyone else is relying on gambling sponsorship. So what industries are ready to come in and fill that gap?
Ted Menmuir (11:44.942)
Crypto. Crypto wallets.
Charlie Horner (11:52.039)
But, you know, it's quite funny, but I imagine it would be true. Martin, have you got any sort of inclination on that?
Martyn Elliott (12:00.902)
Yeah, Ted is absolutely right. It's crypto, it's Forex trading, it's any kind of day trading platform. I think there was a study by the BBC maybe 18 months ago about the number of sort of trading type and financial services type partners with small sponsorship deals, not front of shirt at the moment, with Premier League clubs and a huge number of those are
Charlie Horner (12:11.837)
think there was a study by the BBC, maybe 18 months ago, about the number of trading type and financial services type partners with small sponsorship deals, not front assured at the moment, the Premier League clubs. And a huge number those are not licensed or part of the regulatory system in the UK as well. So a very big count will just go from.
Martyn Elliott (12:30.502)
We're not licensed and part of the regulated system in the UK as well. there's a very big chance we'll just go from, we'll just replicate this issue, but with a slightly different industry, which is, yeah.
Charlie Horner (12:40.421)
We'll just replicate this issue, but with a slightly different industry, which is...
Ted Menmuir (12:45.208)
then again, mean, yeah, we go back to this kind of very broad definition of unscrupulous. Like, could it be like an unscrupulous airline? Like a very, very bad airline sponsoring a brevary. What would that be? What would the repercussions be? know, do we need, again, football is just driving me insane, right? And in terms of like its debate on governance and...
Martyn Elliott (12:50.597)
Hmm.
You
Yeah.
Ted Menmuir (13:12.59)
Apparently we've got this football czar coming in and what are his terms? What is his remit? What is he going to enforce? Do we need this? Because we've already got bodies that should be able to step in and go, that shouldn't be allowed. That's an area that we've got to look at. again, it's going to...
Martyn Elliott (13:30.235)
Yeah.
Ted Menmuir (13:40.846)
These football clubs know who they're partnering with, right? They know whether they're going with the bad actors or not. And it doesn't take a genius to find out who's kind of breaching the rules and who isn't.
Charlie Horner (14:00.093)
Although you say they know the partner at TED, I believe there is a very large premium club that is not far from the studio where the child is sitting, who have in more than one case an anxious responsibility or only to find that the company in question didn't actually exist. So, due to the response to the office is not.
Martyn Elliott (14:00.152)
Although you say they know they're partnering with Ted, I believe there is a very large Premier League club based not far from the studio where Charlie and I are sitting who have on more than one occasion announced the sponsorship deal only to find that the company in question didn't actually exist. due diligence in this sponsorship stuff is not
Charlie Horner (14:27.229)
like what you would hope for by the looks of things now. Well that's the inside of it. Because of the fan-fair play groups or whatever they're called these days from
Martyn Elliott (14:27.28)
quite what you would hope for by the looks of things anyway. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a case of these clubs just want the cash. They want the revenue. And then if some of their supporters or fans or followers are caught up in anything nefarious, they can say, well, it's not as good. Well, I would say that because of the financial fair play
Ted Menmuir (14:47.694)
Mm-hmm.
Martyn Elliott (14:54.746)
rules or whatever they're called these days from UEFA and the Premier League. The most important man in the Premier League football club is no longer the manager or the star striker. It's the chief commercial officer. It's the guy who's under pressure to bring in this revenue and enable the clubs to have a chance of success on the pitch that generates more revenue. it's that self-sustaining sort of circle.
Charlie Horner (14:57.149)
and the Premier League. The most important man in the Premier League football club is no-one but the manager or the star striker. It's the chief commercial officer that goes under pressure to bring in this revenue and enable the clubs to have a chance of success on the pitch that generates more revenue and it's that self-sustaining sort of circle. I don't blame him for taking the occasional risk on this stuff.
Ted Menmuir (15:15.842)
Yeah.
Martyn Elliott (15:20.934)
So I don't blame them for taking the occasional risk on this stuff.
Ted Menmuir (15:21.034)
again.
You
Aren't we kind of in a circle of harm where kind of everyone's complicit? Because I don't think the fan cares who sponsors as long as you're successful on the pitch. And I think, okay, there might be kind of fan bodies who don't, you know, they want to align themselves with the bookmaker or with a Forex platform or yeah, with like an NFT provider. And I understand that, but overall the average fan just wants to, you know, just wants to win on the weekend and that's it.
Charlie Horner (15:34.705)
No, I yeah.
Martyn Elliott (15:34.724)
Nah, mean, I... Yeah.
Charlie Horner (15:54.809)
I hate how sponsored I want you to spend more money on players. This is the average fan's... my average fan and my opinion. This is the thing, you know, we don't want to go into being a natural football podcast territory, yeah, fans want to see success on the pitch, Ted, but in order to do that, they need to have the cash to able to bring in top quality players and to do that, they need sponsors. That's just the harsh reality of
Martyn Elliott (15:54.852)
I hate our sponsor, but I want you to spend more money on players. the average fan's, and by average fan, mean my opinion as a fan. This is the thing, know, we don't want to go into being an actual football podcast territory, yeah, fans want to see success on the pitch Ted, but in order to do that, they need to have the cash to able to bring in top quality players and to do that, they need sponsors. That's just the harsh reality of...
Charlie Horner (16:24.049)
we are in modern football. But let's bring this back to our sector. Do you think these brands are just going to end up on sleeves, pitch perimeters on the LED boards and training kits after this voluntary ban? And we actually know that training kit sponsorship could be even more valuable than being on the front of shirts really, because clubs put out...
Martyn Elliott (16:24.1)
where we are in modern football. Let's bring this back to our sector. Do you think these brands are just going end up?
Charlie Horner (16:49.467)
social media content from training every single day that's pushed out all around the world. So do you just think that brands are going to be a little bit more savvy in terms of where they spend their money and get their exposures?
Charlie Horner (17:04.893)
Yeah, in short, think they will. I've already mentioned I've won the training kit sponsorship. All this stuff is in wait, but how often do you get the team to go across to the bench and view those players? even better if you've got a manager who up trying to put the training kit off in a suit. And yet the public slave sponsorships and, you know, regional partnerships. I think one of the...
Martyn Elliott (17:04.941)
Yes, in short, I think they will. You've already identified one of them, the training kit sponsorship, you know, all the stuff during the week, but how often during the game does the TV go across to the bench and view those players? And even better if you've got a manager who deigns to wear the tracksuit with the training kit rather than a suit. And yeah, there'll be slave sponsorships and, you know, regional partnerships. But I think what one other
Charlie Horner (17:34.685)
things to look at is activations coming out of these sponsorships. And perhaps a bit more sponsorship around tournaments as well, rather than individual clubs. If you think, trying to think of good example, Sky, activate their football league sponsorship absolutely brilliantly. Everyone knows about Sky's sponsorship there and some of the
Martyn Elliott (17:34.692)
thing to look at is activations coming out of these sponsorships and perhaps a bit more sponsorship around tournaments as well, rather than individual clubs. If you think, trying to think of a good example, Skybet activate their football league sponsorship absolutely brilliantly. Everyone knows about Sky's sponsorship there and some of the
Ted Menmuir (18:00.782)
Mm-hmm.
Charlie Horner (18:03.621)
the stuff they do in the community and so on. Another good example we've seen, Met 365 for the Champions League partnership, big, particular giveaway thing that they've been running throughout the last 18 months or so. It's a great way to link with fans, get your name across in a way that is not quite aggressive, it's not in your face. It seems a little less intrusive than shirts once you're anyway, that's so.
Martyn Elliott (18:03.81)
the stuff they do in the community related to it and so on. Another good example we've seen, Bet365, their Champions League partnership, the big ticket giveaway thing that they've been running throughout the last 18 months or so is a great way to link with fans, get your name across in a way that is, it's not that aggressive, it's not that in your face. It seems a little less intrusive than shirt sponsorship anyway, that so.
Charlie Horner (18:32.38)
There's some imagination around that. Not everyone's got the budget that Fair 365 or Skylabel got. But I think what we'll see is more of these sort of community activations around clubs by the gambling sponsors. Yeah, Ted, anything to add on that one?
Martyn Elliott (18:32.422)
There's some imagination around that. Now, not everyone has got the budget that Bet365 or Skybet have got. But I think what we'll see is more of these sort of community activations around clubs by the gambling sponsors.
except Ted and I can serve.
Ted Menmuir (18:51.298)
Yeah, I mean, I think that this being activated in 2027, it comes at a time where the industry is so sensitive on marketing controls, on marketing costs.
And sponsorship should fall into that. But I agree with Martin. It's your savviest advertisers in the industry know how to make a sponsorship work. And it's not just a case of ease my brand on the front of shirts on a Saturday. No. It's about engaging communities, creating better content and actually saying, you know, we recognize that we are with the fans. We know what they want.
and it's not just about being a betting brand to them, it's about engaging. And I think kind of in the past five years that there's been too many soft sponsorships between betting and football. And to a sense, this is a correction and it should be treated as one.
Charlie Horner (19:55.005)
That's a nice positive note to bring it on is becoming a little bit more savvy and actually engaging with communities and fans rather than just pure branding, which is kind of what we've seen for the most part over last few years. Just to end this and perhaps link it back to yesterday's discussion, do you think that the best form of visibility for brands who are just looking to reach sports fans and have that brand awareness?
Do you think it just comes back to influences and social media? Or is there something else that plays? Is it just about engagement, community projects, etc. etc.
Ted Menmuir (20:37.198)
I think you're right. Everything's intertwined and you know, there is an angle of like your social media presence across any marketing discipline. So not, you know, everything is fluid these days. Everything has to be kind of be sticky everywhere, you know, with every marketing channel that you're using and your sponsorships, your sponsorship too. But I think that we...
What I want to see this year, especially with the World Cup, I want to see a return to clever football advertising. I really want them to surprise me in terms of their promotions, but also in terms of the content that they put out.
And it's been to kind of sterile in the last couple of years. And I'm really going to want them to see who are the winners in this market and who's taking marketing seriously at a time, not only sponsorships, but at a time where there's a real, real sensitivity about the cost control, about how much marketing spend is out there. And who are the brands that are kind of the charge in that discipline.
Charlie Horner (21:54.973)
Martin, to add? No, Chad has summed that up very well. He likes to think a little bit more creativity, little bit more relatability as well, think, not just branding, which we've seen and we're a bit bored with, I think.
Martyn Elliott (21:57.862)
No, Ted has summed that up very well. You know, let's see a little bit more creativity, a little bit more relatability as well, I think, not just branding, which we've seen and we're a bit bored with, think. you go. Words of wisdom to end it on. Fantastic. Well, I've really enjoyed this two-part deep dive.
Ted Menmuir (22:09.774)
much.
Charlie Horner (22:16.975)
Yeah, there we go. Words of wisdom to end it on. Fantastic. Well, I've really enjoyed this two part deep dive into, into, well, this sort of black market illegal gambling sector, and then just bringing it back to, just the state of play of marketing in general. So Ted, Martin, thank you very much for joining me for this two part special. Thank you to Optimove, our sponsor for supporting the show. And thank you to our audience for tuning in.
into today's episode of iGaming Daily and come back tomorrow to keep up to date with all the latest global gambling news.
Martyn Elliott (22:48.9)
to date with all the latest global gambling news.