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Welcome to The Corporate Escapee hosted by Brett Trainor,
We are on a mission to help 10,000 GenX professionals escape the corporate confines and find freedom and balance. We focus on helping you replace your corporate income by monetizing your experience and working fewer hours.
GenX was raised without many rules and a lot of independence. We want to show you how to reclaim that freedom
We blend stories from escapees, how to episodes, subject matter experts and authors.
Subscribe to Corporate Escapee Podcast define your legacy in the world of business today.
Join us and transform your expertise into a thriving, fulfilling business outside the traditional corporate confines.
Brett Trainor (00:01.491)
Michael Haynes, welcome back to the podcast.
Michael Haynes (00:04.998)
Thanks Brett, great to be here. I'm looking forward to our discussion and to hopefully inspire and enlighten folks on how corporate escapees can build their own B2B professional service practice. Massive opportunities there so I'm really excited to share some insights, tips and guidance to help corporate escapees, fellow corporate escapees move forward.
Brett Trainor (00:27.923)
Yeah, you're the OG and man, you just stole all my thunder, but that's awesome. That's what you're good at. So you lead me down to, well, you left corporate to 10 years ago, somewhere in that area, little stint at the center.
Michael Haynes (00:30.575)
Oh, I don't know if I'm the OG, but...
Michael Haynes (00:39.114)
Oh no, actually it's now 14 years ago. Yes, 14, I left.
Brett Trainor (00:43.915)
14 years and you're still thriving. And for the record, I'm gonna test your memory.
Michael Haynes (00:48.098)
Still thriving, still smiling. It's not an easy road, but it's a road well worth doing. I've left corporate, I learned a lot from corporate, but for me there's no turning back. And there's massive opportunities for us now as corporate escapees. That whole saying of no one gets fired for hiring IBM, those days are over. I got my first gig as a consultant, my first big project.
a 30k project strategy project for a HR strategy firm. I got that because a big firm, that's how we're made in Lamos, kind of messed up. So yeah, there's lots of opportunity, but you have to know how to navigate the landscape of B2B professional services and what our buyers are looking for. Cause very different from other elements of the world of B2B.
Brett Trainor (01:38.591)
Yeah. And I'm excited to get into this because right. People hear me talk a lot about fractional and I think it's, it could be the easiest transition from corporate into the, the escapee world. But the one thing that I'm, I, when I meet with people one on one, it's, it's really around, Hey, 23 years of experience. How do you monetize that experience? Right. And there's a spectrum of things that you can offer. And you've kind of cracked the code in one area. And that's what I want to get in and give some folks the exposure.
to that world, right? Because I think most of us come from B2B and with your skillset, you can learn and apply and build it into a services business. But before we kick that off, do you know how many times you've been on the podcast? Do you know what episode this is for you?
Michael Haynes (02:23.95)
Um, five, six? I don't know. Oh, it is number six. Oh wow. Okay. I hope the download numbers, well I hope I'm doing something right. Okay, wow. Cool.
Brett Trainor (02:27.719)
This is number six, which is a corporate escapee record.
Brett Trainor (02:37.343)
Well, you bring us the Australian audience. And by the way, Australia slipped to number three or four now behind France and the United Kingdom, France of all the time, shout out to everybody in France, it's listening to us. So thank you. But, uh, no, anyway, you, you've been through the changes with the podcast from the beginning. I think you were like episode eight back in the day. But what I realized is you haven't been on since September of 22, which is kind of shocking. Yeah.
Michael Haynes (02:43.386)
Okay.
Michael Haynes (02:46.962)
Okay.
Michael Haynes (02:57.727)
Yes.
Michael Haynes (03:02.494)
Oh wow. Okay.
Brett Trainor (03:04.391)
So we've been overdue to have this conversation. It was funny, I went back and looked and we were talking about how to grow an expertise-based business. So it was kind of the early days when I was thinking and you were obviously in this. So I figured this is a perfect place to come back and get your perspective. So for starters, let's set the table that people in our audience, I would say probably.
Michael Haynes (03:07.533)
Awesome.
Michael Haynes (03:21.986)
Have fun.
Brett Trainor (03:31.435)
three quarters of them or two thirds of them are probably still in corporate and starting to plan. They're done with corporate They want to get out, but they're starting to build what that strategy. They're actually smart unlike me that just left without a plan Figured it out. They're actually thinking through this and so I'll let you know kind of start where you want but with that in mind You know, how should folks be thinking about this? What are some good first steps and then we can get into kind of the nuts and bolts of?
of building and growing it.
Michael Haynes (04:03.118)
Okay, that's great. I think first off, for those of your viewers, because you've got a growing audience base that may not be familiar with me, I will introduce myself first off. So I am, my name is Michael Haynes, everyone. I'm a B2B go-to-market business growth strategy specialist, and I work with small and medium B2B professional service firms. So the likes of your accounting firms, your IT firms, technology companies, your law firms, your project management companies, I help those professional service firms.
Brett Trainor (04:11.743)
Thank you.
Michael Haynes (04:32.906)
that want to acquire, retain, and grow other business clients to achieve the growth and impact they seek. So I've been doing this for quite some time. And so just to give some context, so working with leaders of professional service businesses to build and grow them is what I'm all about. One of the key premises that anyone needs to know whether they're an established professional services business, like some of the accounting and IT companies I'm working with right now,
corporate escapee that is looking to set up there and build their own practice. One of the key things, fundamental premises we must recognize is that our clients, professional service clients, our prospects, the number one thing that they are looking for is expertise and a very high level depth of expertise. This has been done by lots of studies by the Hinge Research Institute, to just put out another study, Gartner, Forrester, McKinsey,
Brett Trainor (05:15.383)
Thank you.
Michael Haynes (05:30.354)
And this is the number one thing that our buyers are looking for. Therefore, the key to success in order to be able to acquire clients, retain them, and grow them, and ultimately build and grow your practice is that you have to deliver what I call air. Advice, insights, and recommendations to those decision makers, those making the decisions to buy, and those influencing the decisions to buy. So you have to be.
buyer driven, you have to be air driven. That is the key to success in building and growing your professional service business.
Brett Trainor (06:06.187)
All right, hit me with that A-I-R again. You talked about it. I didn't write fast enough. Advice?
Michael Haynes (06:08.722)
So AIR, it stands for advice, insights, and recommendations. So what I'm saying, Brett, is that for those decision makers who make the decisions to purchasing professional services, so for example, if you're an IT consulting firm, I'm working with an IT consulting firm right now, and they work with companies around their technology strategies, the firms need to understand who makes it. You need to know who makes the decision
about buying those technology strategy consulting services. You need to know what are their priorities, challenges, key goals and objectives, and ultimately how they buy. And you need to provide that air, that advice, insights and recommendations around those key priorities, objectives and challenges that those decision makers around with whom should we be buying technology strategy services? You need to understand those priorities, objectives and challenges.
and deliver the advice, insights, and recommendations.
Brett Trainor (07:10.819)
Yeah, no, I like that. And maybe even just maybe we can take a half a step back because I think part of it is you've been in corporate for 20 years, you do have a wealth of knowledge, right? You know how to solve problems. So how did you decide where you were going to focus first? Cause I think that's one of the biggest challenges is I can do all of this, but as I keep listening to you, you're like, you know, pick, pick a lane first. So how did you, is it really just talking to potential customers? What was your, what's your process for doing it?
Michael Haynes (07:30.305)
Yeah.
Michael Haynes (07:39.53)
So the number one thing you have to do is what I call listening. And so listening and listening on three levels. You need to be listening to you as that founder of your professional service business. So what are your skills? What are your strengths? What are you good at? Where have you had success in terms of the type of work, skill sets, what types of industries, the types of clients that you've worked at, worked with? Where are you looking to go? What do you want to be doing with this business? So you need to really have an understanding.
as the CEO of your professional service business, as the founder, taking a look at those strengths, key capabilities, what you want to do. That's step number one. Then you need to be listening to the market. Now by listening to the market, corporate speak would be doing your industry and market analysis. You need to understand in terms of those perspective, industries, those verticals, as well as geographic markets, you need to have an understanding.
and a fairly in-depth understanding of those markets in terms of what are the trends, what are some of the, how it's performing, what are the key requirements, what are some of the broad buyer trends, what's happening within those respective industries, what are the key challenges, are there lots of mergers and acquisitions happening, what's the whole overall economic environment? So you really need to understand those industries and in the geographies that you're looking to operate in, you need to have that understanding. You also wanna have an understanding
Brett, around the competitors who are going to be in that space that you're going to be dealing with. So that's listening to the market. And then the third, you need to have an understanding around your customers, those potential clients that you're going to have as prospects. You really need to have an in-depth understanding there. And Brett, this is where things can get a little bit. There's a challenge in B2B, because it's not enough to say, OK, to use the example of a.
Again, to use the example of an IT strategy firm who might be wanting to get into some of those mid-sized, second tier banks. It's not enough to understand the landscape of those kind of second tier, mid-sized banks, that we'll say in the United States, for example. It's not enough to understand just the market and the economic conditions of the industry. It's not enough to understand who those organizations are at an organizational level in terms of, you know.
Michael Haynes (10:03.098)
what kind of products, what kind of services, what do they offer, their key strengths. We need to know who are the decision makers within that bank, who are going to be the decision makers, are we going to have to be dealing with. So we need to know, is it going to be the chief, are we dealing with CIOs, are we going to be dealing with some project managers, digital transformation specialists, for example. So we need to know who are those people, the titles of those people, what are their key priorities with respect to
technology strategy. Maybe it is about digital transformation and developing solutions, let's say, for the SMB markets. I'm going to be using one of my clients as an example. So we need to know who are we dealing with, who is making the decision to buy, what are their priorities, and it could be around digital transformation for SMBs, and then we need to know how they buy. How are they going to be making their decision of whether to use you, your professional service firm, your IT consulting firm, or someone else?
Who are they talking to? What are they reading? Where are they going? You need to have an understanding of those three questions. Who buys? What are their priorities? How they buy? Because that sets the stage for how you're going to go to market in terms of what you offer to those clients, how you promote and engage and ultimately acquire your clients.
Brett Trainor (11:21.179)
Excellent. And can we drill down into one aspect of it? Because I think it's a, I think it would be a common question, but we'll find out is if I'm starting to work with comps customers and they haven't. Right. There is no competitor, right? They may not have used a consulting firm before or haven't bought, you know, agency services, does that change your thinking as you go in or is it still, you know what I'm saying? Because we may or may not, depending on the industry they're going into, you may be competing against do nothing.
Right, it's...
Michael Haynes (11:51.718)
Okay, so first of all, when we're talking with, you know, when we're dealing about prospective clients who are looking to buy, in the world of professional services, there is always competition. Status quo is always your biggest competitor, do nothing, but pretty much there is always going to be, when I'm thinking of the types of the firms that I work with and I do a lot of work with technology companies, accounting firms, there are a lot of other, you have competitors, your competitors can be, if...
internal, your internal equivalents within those organizations that you're targeting. So some of your organizations may have, you know, strategy folk, may have folks that are specializing in legal, specializing in training development, if that's what you're all about. So you will, you may have internal competitors, but you will, you will have external competitors, which could be independent consultants, niche, niche agencies, larger agencies. So there's always going to be, in addition to doing nothing,
there's always going to be some form of competition. But while you wanna be mindful of that, Brett, again, you really wanna be buyer-driven, air-driven. We need to have clarity around with whom we're going to be going after, what kinds of industries, what geographic markets, getting understanding of the kinds of organizations that we're looking for, and who are the decision-makers and buyers, and really having an understanding around those core three questions of...
who buys, what are their priorities, and how do they go about making the decisions to purchase external professional services, such as consulting, advisory, et cetera.
Brett Trainor (13:30.719)
Got it. Okay. Now it makes sense. And you're, you're right. There is, I was just thinking if they're targeting some of the small ends, there may be less opportunity. So we always talk about this spectrum, right? If it's a small business, it's more foundational and the bigger the organization, the more hyper focused it's going to get. And so part of it is you got to pick where you want to play, um, right. Based on your experience. Have you seen, I'm assuming, well, I don't want to assume anything. Tell me again, cause that's part of it. If I'm coming into this new, I'm starting a firm.
How do I, is there a way to tell where the sweet spot is? I'm going after my first.
Michael Haynes (14:06.43)
You have to do your listening. You have to do your research. OK, before you're going to embark on building your professional services business, you have to do your research, which I'm calling it as listening. But you do need to understand potentially those industries verticals that you're going to serve. So if you're, I'm going to go back to my IT strategy consulting firm example. If you're an IT consulting firm, with who are you going to focus in on? Are you going to service?
fellow small, medium business, so fellow SMBs. If so, in what particular industries and in what trajectory are you gonna be local? Are you gonna be regional? Are you gonna be national? Are you going to be global? Are you gonna be specializing in a certain aspect of IT strategy? Maybe it's all about digital transformation. It might be digital transformation for professional services, for example. So you want to have an understanding of where you're going to be having focus.
around what industries and what verticals. Then again, it's about then taking to that next level, what kinds of organizations are you going after? Are you going after the larger end of town? Are you going after funded startups? Are you going to be servicing small and medium businesses? Because having that clarity will help you know where to focus. It's going to help you know where to focus in terms of, by having that clarity to know where you're going to be focusing on what kinds of industries, markets, what kind of customers.
It is going to make your process of go to market in terms of how you're going to make yourself known and be visible much more clearer, because you will know by virtue that you're targeting, let's say you're targeting small business banks. You know there might be certain associations you're gonna be wanting to target. You might be wanting to target certain specific banking institutions that focus in SMB. There might be certain publications, certain podcasts, certain events.
There could be certain micro-influential subject matter experts that you may want to be dealing with. It will help identify with whom you may want to collaborate with. It also makes it easier to refer when you can say, I am the go-to for X. I work with clients to help solve Y problems. It makes it very clear. And I found this from my own experience, Brett. People now know it's very easy. They find it's easy to refer Michael because Michael
Michael Haynes (16:25.686)
works with small and medium B2B, accounting, technology, and law firms. Those are kind of the big three that I focus on. People can remember, okay, so accounting, tech, law, it makes it easy to refer. Refer potential clients for you, potential opportunities to collaborate, speaking opportunities, opportunities to write for certain publications. It also makes you referable to opportunities when people kind of know where you fit. You might do other things, but in terms of your...
how you're promoting your business, your professional service business, when people can understand for whom you serve and for what, it makes it very easy to identify various opportunities, be it clients or other opportunities, which will help you with your business development.
Brett Trainor (17:09.463)
Yeah, makes sense. And yeah, it's, um, yeah, really good point. I think too, as you start this journey, we've got, uh, again, well, at least one thing I found when I moved into consulting, when I was actually in management consulting before going solo consulting was the ability, and maybe I'm transferring into the next topic here, but it was the ability that with the client to be able to have that conversation say, I've been in your shoes, right? And I think that's one of the advantages that
folks exiting corporate, they've been in those shoes, assuming they're targeting, right? Kind of the same area that they, what they were doing internally now externally, can have that conversation. Look, I've done that, worked with large companies, I've worked internally with large companies, I understand completely where you're coming from. Try to leverage that as an advantage. So maybe I jumped us too far ahead, but you know, I'm just starting to think, all right, so here's who we're going after, here's what I'm doing, what does, I guess maybe I shouldn't put words in your mouth and step that back.
What's next, Michael? So we're talking.
Michael Haynes (18:08.242)
Okay, so you first need to get, again, so step number one is really getting clarity on where you want to be focusing. So, you know, what industries, what geographic markets, what kind of companies, and getting an understanding of who are going to be those decision makers, those buyers. So that's going to require you doing a bit of research, market research, potentially talking to clients, prospects. So there's some work to be done so you know where you're going to be focusing.
One of the big challenges with building a professional service business and where folks struggle with is not their expertise It's so much in terms of being good at what they do It's being visible where your buyers are looking for information that is where there is a disconnect visibility is the biggest issue of professional service businesses and for smaller professional services businesses
who we don't have the big budgets like big corporates to be, you know, be doing anything and everything and going to every conference and all of that. Getting that visibility and getting that right. That is the big challenge. So you really want to make sure that you have clarity around, again, you know, what industries, you know, markets the kinds of organizations you want to be serving, knowing who your decision makers are and where they go for information.
So in order to do that, I recommend your professional associations of your target industries is often a great place to start. It is a great place where you can get that market intelligence around some of your decision makers. It's often a good place to become visible, are your associations. Because the associations for the industries that you're targeting, they will be putting on webinars. They have newsletters, they have magazines, they have podcasts.
And these are often the kinds of places that your prospective clients, the decision makers, where they go when they're looking for advice, insights, and recommendations to their key priorities and challenges. So figuring out who your buyer is and where do they go for information, because they do lots of independent research, and figuring out where they go, and what they're looking at, whom they're talking to, that's a big thing. And you want to become visible in those.
Michael Haynes (20:26.534)
in on those platforms in those arenas collaborating with those experts thought leaders that they look to as trusted sources of advice.
Brett Trainor (20:36.127)
That's true, absolutely. And hopefully if you're coming from that industry, you'll have an idea of where you hang out because you were one of them at one point, right? So you would know where you're getting your information from. So you'd have a little bit of an insider. So maybe help me make the leap, right? So if I'm starting, how do I just find that first customer and two, because everything you said, it makes perfect sense when I want to go, but would you do this?
front or would you recommend testing before you start to get there's a balance right? Because you want to if this is new to you, are you going to go all in out of the box or is there a way to test certain things before and what's your recommendation on that?
Michael Haynes (21:18.702)
Okay, I think first step number one, you need to understand what you wanna do, where's your strengths, what are you good at? Okay, and what do you wanna do? I think you need to get clarity around that. For me, I knew I wanted to focus on B2B strategy, go-to-market strategy, that is where I've had a lot of success, I know I'm quite good at. So you want to...
Brett Trainor (21:29.967)
Yeah.
Brett Trainor (21:41.134)
No, I'm fine.
Michael Haynes (21:44.174)
kind of work out what it is you want to be doing, what kind of services you're gonna be offering. Then you wanna be determining with whom you wanna be focusing on. For me, I decided, despite having come in from big corporate, I wanna work with small, medium businesses, professional service businesses. So kind of honing in on that. So once you've kind of honed in on where you wanna focus by virtue of what you wanna be doing, by what industry, what...
you know, geographic market, you probably, like I said, your industry and professional association might be a good place to help tap in to find opportunities, tapping into your network. Hopefully you have been building your network. You have a network that you can potentially leverage on to gain your first client, to get that first piece of work. That's how I got my first piece of work is what I kind of worked out where I wanted to focus on. I went out to my entire network.
Folks and say look I do B2B strategy I work with small medium professional services businesses who needs help who is struggling with Identifying market opportunities building market entry strategy to build and grow their firms I sent that out to lots of my network and then I had an ex-colleague who said Michael I know of a HR talent strategy firm global firm the CMO I think needs help
And that's how I got my first opportunity to do my first gig, my first project. So, you know, you always want to be building your network, building your network again around those groups, associations, and people that relate to the buyers that you're ultimately wanting to go after. So you need to be creating that visibility, building that network. That needs to be done.
Brett Trainor (23:34.071)
got it. And what about referrals? Because I love the idea of the network, right? Because that's usually the path of least resistance is network and then referrals or what's your experience with that?
Michael Haynes (23:43.999)
You definitely want to, great question Brett, you definitely want, you know, referrals is always a great way to fast track. And, you know, where you can get referrals, it's fantastic because it's a trusted source. But you do have to build that referral engine. Referrals, definitely you want to use that to get started. But you cannot rely solely on referrals. Because that can be a very limited...
You definitely want to build on that. But again, it is about really being very clear on who you're looking to serve and really understanding those decision makers, who they are, and how do they buy. Because your professional service clients are a prospect, do a lot of independent research and decision making. The stats show that they will do up to 80% of their research.
before they want to talk to any sales rep. So they are looking online. They are going through associations. They're going through online communities. They're reading certain publications. They're going to certain events, be it online, in person. There are certain thought leaders and experts. You need to really understand who are those third party trusted sources. And again, that's where you want to be being visible and start putting out some of that content in the form of advice, insights, and recommendations. So...
providing advice on what are the new opportunities, best practices, solutions, approaches, what are some ideas around collaboration and potential partners. You want to be putting out those advice, insights, and recommendations as content out there where your folks are looking for information, because that's how you're going to get the visibility to the decision makers that you seek. That in and of itself will help to create the referral engine for you.
So you need to be thinking, you really need to have that understanding of who you're seeking to serve in terms of the decision makers. What are their priorities and how do they buy? Because that will tell you where to focus. Spending on the likes of LinkedIn, for example, LinkedIn is definitely a place you're going to want to be visible, but you don't want to rely on it because more and more decision makers that we are targeting don't spend a lot of time, some spend no time.
Michael Haynes (26:03.738)
on LinkedIn. So you need to be understanding what are those trusted sources, where are they going, and making sure you're creating that air advice, insights, and recommendation, and you're getting it visible through those channels, platforms, those other people and experts, you know, well-known folks in your industry that is being visible in those channels and amongst those people.
Brett Trainor (26:27.147)
Yeah. Do you have any advice for folks? And I'm sure you work with firms that aren't really good in the content game or aren't having been doing a lot of that to this point. And is there, again, I don't want to fast track anything, but as I'm getting started, is there some best practices of where, what I should be doing? If I want to get into this, the B2B services, professional services business, right. Because I can, it can get overwhelming. If I think of all the things that I could create and content in those
Do you have any recommendations or what's your recommendations of the firms you work with?
Michael Haynes (26:58.35)
Again, you need to understand who are your decision makers that you're going after. Okay, where are you focusing on and what is important to the decision makers you're going after? For example, the accounting space is an area I do a lot of work with. I do a lot of work and I am pursuing those who are seeking to grow their accounting firms and growing to build them into more advisory practices. So that is where...
I am focusing in on that. It's a trend I've seen from listening to the accounting industry to the account, listening to the market in terms of the accounting space. There is a big trend of firms that are looking to become more advisory and broadening their scope. So I am putting out content. Some of the content I'll be putting out is how to develop and create an advisory business. Because I'm focusing on accountants, I am going through.
different channels like various accounting associations. There is Accounting Influencers Roundtable. There's some specific accounting podcasts where I'm gonna be putting that information out there. So again, your content, because your content strategy is content creation and content distribution. Your content creation needs to be grounded in providing advice, insights, and recommendations to your buyers, priorities, challenges, and objectives.
Where you distribute, where you make it visible, is based on where they go for information. And so where do they spend their time? Is it certain associations? Are there certain events? Are there other partners that you might wanna be collaborating with who also serve that audience? Is it online places such as medium.com, quorum.com? Are there certain publications? So you need to have that understanding. That determines.
what your content strategy needs to be.
Brett Trainor (28:46.327)
That's awesome and agreed, right? I'm just thinking back to my days. It was once you can get up and you've used this word a few times tonight which I absolutely love is clarity, right? I've been thinking more and more about it. It's the more clear you can get the easier it is to start this and you don't get overwhelmed. You stay focused on the key tasks. And so next area I wanna transition to you cause this is one of your strengths. Not that all of us has, but all right. Let's say I'm the new
you know, service, my business is going, I'm actually getting meetings with prospects. Do you have any recommendations or best practices? All right. Now I'm going to, I love discovery meetings and I think those are the keys to the sales. What's kind of your advice that maybe, Hey, I'm not a true sales person, right? I'm, I'm more of an industry expert, but I'm transitioning into this. Any advice for those folks that are now face to face with a, with a buyer. And I know it's kind of a loaded question, but.
Michael Haynes (29:43.442)
So once you get to that stage, and I will say upfront, that is not as easy and immediate to get to. But once you get that meeting, then it is about really trying to understand where they're at, where they're looking to go, what have they tried, what's working, what's not working.
And then you want to try to ultimately build out a, if it makes sense, if you are able to, you have to assess, can I able to help and serve them? If you can't, you need to do right by them and refer them to who can. But if you are able to help and serve them, you understand where they're at, where they're looking to go, what are the challenges, then create what is that mutual action plan, that roadmap of how you're gonna help them achieve their objectives. And build out that mutual action plan of how you two are gonna work together.
That's kind of the key to success once you have landed the meeting. But Brett, getting that meeting is a lot harder. So you have jumped ahead. I'm gonna say quite honestly, you jumped ahead quite a bit because getting the meeting is quite challenging because our clients, our prospects are getting inundated with lots of content, lots of invitation. People are trying to get on the phone and trying to get that discovery call. So getting that cut through to be able to get that meeting is a lot.
easier is a lot harder than it is and that's where you have to really understand your perspective clients understanding what are the key challenges their priorities and again, how do they buy and I'm finding it is a combination of Contents content micro events and partnerships. Those are the three pillars of go-to-market for us and professional services So you're going to be using content
where you're providing advice, insights, and recommendations, combined with different kinds of events, what I call micro events, where you're giving opportunities for your clients, your prospects, to ask questions, share ideas, gain insight, to unlock the opportunity to have conversation. It's often the combination of content combined with micro events. And you may be looking to collaborate with folks to get access to their audience and those people.
Michael Haynes (32:04.158)
It is those three that are really the pillars of your go-to-market strategy to create, demand, acquire clients that will unlock the opportunities to get the meeting.
Brett Trainor (32:15.991)
Gotcha, so I'm gonna put you on the spot then take you back since you've been this, you've built your business over the last 13, 14, what did you say, was it 14 years, 13 years? I don't wanna short, 14 years. So the same thing, right? You figured out the content, you found out where your buyers are, what they're dealing. So maybe that is, I did kind of fast forward into the conversation, but so how do we, how do you connect with them? I know I'm not,
Michael Haynes (32:26.41)
14 years, yeah.
Brett Trainor (32:44.199)
I know it's more complicated than that, but I'm just looking for some tips and things to think about as you're starting to head down this path. And what...
Michael Haynes (32:52.81)
You need to understand, you have to understand the industries that you're going after, who are the bars, and what is important to them. And to connect with them, you need to understand what their challenges are, and then start producing content and or hosting a kind of event, which could be a round table session. It could be a short masterclass around those priorities and challenges that are a priority, as my advisor calls it.
those Monday morning problems that are of urgent priority, you need to understand what they are for your prospects and start creating content and potentially micro events, opportunities to have dialogue and discussion around those. That's your first step. But again, I may be sounding like a broken record. You must have clarity around what it is you offer, for whom you are going after and who are the decision makers specifically.
And what are those Monday morning problems that are of top priority to them that they're trying to achieve, that are keeping them up at night, that are integral to the success of their careers, their business, you need to understand what are those high priority areas. And you start providing content, advice, insights, recommendations, providing opportunities to have discussion and dialogue around those key priorities, that's the first step. So you have to have that clarity.
Brett Trainor (34:13.091)
No, 100% agree with you. And, but at some point you're going to have to make the outreach to your prospects and, and try to have the conversations with folks. Are you saying you want to drive people to some point if they don't know, it's, you know, tree falls in the forest. Does it make a noise if you don't hear it type of thing, right? If you're creating this content, nobody even knows it's out there. How do I start to bridge that gap from what I'm creating? I know when the clients are.
Michael Haynes (34:30.754)
So.
Michael Haynes (34:36.158)
Again, you have to know, again, Brett, you have to know your decision makers. And that might mean, you know, you have to do your research, you may need to start talking to some colleagues, like I said, getting involved with industry associations, finding out where do your buyers go are likely to go for information and you must be creating and be visible there. No one wants to get sold to trying to do the outreach cold call. A lot of, you know, decision makers, people are too busy, they don't take cold call.
So that's why, you know, I am, I often get at odds with salespeople because people are too busy, they don't take calls from people that they don't know. And buyers do independent research. They're going to do all of their research before they talk to you. So you have to be visible where folks are seeking, where your prospects are going for information. So, you know, where are they going online, offline? You have to do your research to understand where they're going and you need to provide that value added content.
advice, recommendations, those insights, where they're looking for information so that they can start to find you. Doing the cold outreach and just picking up the phone, sending out cold emails, yes, it's a numbers game, but chances are you're not going to get their attention because it's not how our buyers buy.
Brett Trainor (35:54.403)
Yeah, no, 100% agree. And yeah, it's a lesson in futility if you try to cold call for sales. But I've had some success with outreach where I'm not trying to sell them, just looking for information, better learn their problems, offering some value as part of it, right? Hey, here's the things that I've learned in talking to other customers, just love to connect with you and understand and had a connection rate.
Michael Haynes (36:22.606)
Well, absolutely. And that's part of doing your research. Absolutely. Absolutely part of doing your research, what I call the air interview, where you're going to be talking to prospects and you're going with a position of, I'd like to understand, what are your challenges? What are you struggling? What are you looking to do? And that needs to be part of your research of trying to listen to the buyer, listening at getting that buyer level understanding. Absolutely. That is very different. That is not outreach is when you say,
you're going to pick up a phone because I want to do the demo for talking about some kind of IT solution, if you want to be selling them on some consulting advisory offering. When you're trying to make the pitch and make the sale, that's not going to work. But where you can give value and give some insights and try to extract and learn as to what are their priorities and so forth, and that's where micro events, doing the likes of roundtables.
Brett Trainor (37:06.772)
Never.
Michael Haynes (37:22.058)
Things like roundtables, forums, those things can be quite useful in getting dialogue going because with a virtual roundtable, for example, and you're inviting a number of folks from the industry, you can lead the discussion, but you don't necessarily have to do a lot of work in terms of putting on a full event per se. But these are the kinds of things that you can do to open up the dialogue, make yourself known, and also find out what is going on with them.
Brett Trainor (37:50.887)
I love the idea of the micro event and that's something you would invite customers or prospects to, Hey, I'm putting together this. Can you give me an example of that? What's what's worked for you or some of your clients as far as what a micro.
Michael Haynes (38:01.342)
Micro events can be a number of things. So micro events, they can be roundtables. I do monthly Ask Michael Anything sessions on LinkedIn. They can be forums. They might be a short master class where you're going to teach them on about a topic that is of value to them. It could be a mini mastermind session where you're going to invite a number of prospects clients. And we're going to talk about problems and challenges and we'll allow one or two people to be in the hot seat where they're
their problems and they're getting feedback and insights from the group. These kind of micro events, and I've defined micro events as those kind of events that are anywhere between 30 minutes up to two hours, short, sharp, those events where it is very value driven. It's aimed at getting decision makers, those involved in the decision making, gathering them and providing value to them. Those can be quite...
valuable because you're giving them value. You can gain insights back. It's an opportunity to become known, become trusted, to unlock the conversation and by short time frames and doing it, I would say, consider doing it virtually. People are very busy, but if there's value to be gained, I can find 30, people will find 30 minutes in their diary. I've done these, you know, office hours, Ask Michael Anything session, and I've had I've had
25, 30 people show up and I've had them from across region. But short, sharp value add, people will find time in their diary. I like virtual because people are very busy and where they can multitask and be able to dial in as they're doing, it makes it easier as opposed to big events, which people will come to, but it's harder to do. Lots of people are doing bigger events and people are time poor. But if you make it value add and if you can make it short, sharp,
value add, it's a good way to start the unlock the conversation that can lead to other opportunities, other events, longer events.
Brett Trainor (40:02.131)
Yeah, I love that. I need to do more of that. I mean, it's, and I know you encourage me all the time. He's like, I mean, it makes sense. And you can repurpose the content for other, right. You're.
Michael Haynes (40:11.762)
Yes, I mean, there's a number of things. Yeah, with the micro events, you will get content from it. It's what you can then repurpose. It's a good way to start engagement, start dialogue, start interacting with those prospects that you can then invite them to other events. You can start feeding them, providing them other forms of content. So there's a number of things that you can do with that.
Brett Trainor (40:38.803)
Yeah, no, it makes sense. And like, I can't believe we're already through most of our time. Cause quite honestly, this is probably a two hour discussion and we do this every time we get on the podcast, right? Cause we are so like-minded with it. Um, and to go deeper. And so we may do, I may do a part two on this because I think this gives people a good chance to think about, is this the path worth pursuing? I can leverage my experience. I like this, this model. I've done this, this model, not to.
not as well as you have and that's why you're on the podcast. And I just think it's, as we get more people that are thinking about or wanting to exit corporate, to me this is a, this channel or this type of business makes sense, right? Fractional we talk about, we talk about a different thing, but this is a legit, not even legit.
Michael Haynes (41:29.09)
This is a different model. This is about building a professional server. You're building your own accounting. You're building your own business, your own practice. You need to decide if that's something that you want to do because the biggest challenge around it is not going to be the client delivery. Client delivery is always the easy part. It's the fun part. It's the easy part. It is going to be around that whole go-to-market, that client acquisition, that retention, building.
building up how you have a continual stream of pipeline of work, pipeline of clients, that is the big challenge to it. But the key to success is to be, for us, a professional service firm, whether you're setting up an accounting firm, an IT firm, a law firm project management business, is that you must be buyer driven and you must be air driven. It has to be about identifying who your target buyers are.
knowing what are their priorities, who they are, and so you know their roles and titles, what are their priorities and how do they go about making decisions whether to go with the business such as likes of yours or to go with someone else's. Who do they go to when they're looking for solutions? Who do they go to with whom and where? Identifying what those are, because that's going to really advise how you go to market, how do you become visible, and make yourself known as the go-to for those targets.
I'm fo-
Brett Trainor (42:57.323)
Yeah, this is awesome, Mike. I really appreciate it. I always appreciate your time when we go through this exercise. And if folks are out there, and by the way, you didn't promote your book. I know it's a couple of years old now, but it's a great read. So I'll put that in the, so tell the folks, I was going to lead you, you're going to what's the best way for people to get ahold of you? What are some of the content they should be looking at?
Michael Haynes (43:21.014)
So great. So for those who want to connect with me, I would say connect with me on LinkedIn. Brett will have the link in the show notes to my LinkedIn profile to connect with me. Also check out my website, List And there there's a whole raft of content aimed at small and medium businesses, B2B professional service firms, lots of content on how to identify market opportunities, how to understand your perspective professional service clients.
You know how to build service offerings. What are some of the things we need to know about interacting with our larger enterprise corporate customers? You know how to deliver air advice insights recommendations all the things that you need to know about Building and growing a b2b professional service practice. There's a raft of information at listen innovate grow Calm and again as well connect with me on LinkedIn
Brett Trainor (44:14.611)
Yeah, and a great follow because your content is really good and it's the opposite side of the world. So you get it at a different time of the day than most. But yeah, because again, what I like about you is you practice what you preach, right? And it is. And so if you're looking for examples of how to do this, follow Michael. Again, on the website, there's a bunch of really good content. So Michael, anything else that we forgot or we'll have to put it on the agenda for the next time we chat.
Michael Haynes (44:44.306)
Yeah, we can definitely continue the conversation. I think we've jammed a lot in there already, but just want to let everyone know there is lots of opportunities for corporate escapees who want to build their own practice. There are lots of opportunities out there, but you just really need to start from thinking from the buyer in mind, your decision makers, our clients, and they're looking for expertise and how you can demonstrate that expertise.
and make it be visible where they are looking and with whom they go to. That is the key fundamental premise you wanna have in your mind as you're moving forward to building and starting building and growing that practice.
Brett Trainor (45:24.403)
Awesome, clarity is your friend. And just so they know, people listening won't be able to see it, but I'm the host and I've got two full pages and notes from our conversation today. So thank you, Michael, I appreciate it. And we'll catch up with you here before too long.
Michael Haynes (45:39.118)
Great, thanks for having me yet again. It's been a pleasure as always, Brett.
Brett Trainor (45:43.831)
Cheers.