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In Ecclesiastes 3:11, we read that God makes everything beautiful in its time. It is comforting to know that nothing is wasted in God's economy, but all of it will be used for our good and His glory. You're invited to join us for poignant conversations and compelling interviews centered on believing for His beauty in every season.
K -MAC. Let's go. my goodness. This is exciting for a host of reasons that I will not bore everyone with now. I've already officially done your intro and so they've heard all of the official bio and my fangirling over you. So I'll still do a little bit of that in our conversation today. So I just need you to get comfortable with the fangirling. It's gonna happen.
But thank you for doing this. For people watching and listening, I know that you're teaching, you're writing the way that you show up in the earth, as you say. In the earth is one of your phrases and the way you show up in the earth is so profoundly impactful for people. And I know that this conversation is gonna be no different. But as we start, I wonder if you'd be willing to take us all the way back to the beginning.
Like a lot of times you come upon a Bible teacher or author and you're like, I love everything that they do and say, I want to know more about their story. So whatever you're comfortable sharing, know Mississippi is a big part of it. so tell us just the beginnings of KMac man. So I grew up in rural Mississippi. It's an area called the Mississippi Delta. I often say I grew up in the dirty South. Okay. So I grew up about 20 minutes from the Mississippi river.
Swimming, fishing, hanging out with friends. It's the era before cell phones, of course. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist church. I am an only child, both of my parents, believers. My father was a deacon in the church and sang tenor in the choir. He had a beautiful voice. My mom is currently 88 years old and still serving as the church hostess
You grew up Southern Baptist. mean, food is central for the Baptist. It is the sermon and the casserole. So very much that sort of small town. You knew everyone. And Jesus found me when I was nine. And I love to say it that way because I came out of the womb singing all 99 verses of Just As I Am, Church Girl my whole life. But when I was nine, it's like I heard the gospel for the first
And there was just a yes in my heart. And I remember going to bed that night with a tangible sense of the peace of God. I wouldn't have had a language for it as a nine -year -old, but sitting here right now in my body, I can remember that feeling, sort of coming into the family of God, coming into the kingdom of God by faith in Jesus. So nine was a big year for me. So anytime I meet nine -year -olds, I'm always like, my gosh, like Jesus found me at nine. It was such a big year for me.
And then you fast forward, you know, growing up in rural Mississippi, sort of my connection to Bible and teaching, I grew up in a context where women didn't teach the Bible. know, women in the church that I grew up in, you sing in the choir, you hold the babies in the nursery, or you cook the casserole. And I can't sing and I don't cook and I like babies, you know, but just none of that.
But I am a nerd. I say that all the time. I've never said no to a book a day in my life. I've loved the scriptures always. So I always had this hunger for the Word, this passion for the Word, this desire for the Word, but I had no place to put it. There was no shelf to put that on. No one was speaking that into me. No one was fostering that. No one was really encouraging that in that sense. And when I was 16 years old, I was walking down the hallway of my church.
and my youth pastor stopped me. And I think he was probably asking all the kids this, or maybe it was a Holy Spirit moment just for me. I don't know, but I remember it to this moment. He said, Kristi, what is that thing that you would do all day, every day, for the rest of your life for free? What a great question. And what 16 -year -old is even thinking on that plane necessarily? But the reason I say it was a Holy Spirit moment is I just heard myself say I would teach people the Word of
And it was like in that moment, there was this revelation of a sense of calling and purpose for me that this is the kind of arrow I've created you to be, Kristi. This is how I want to shoot you out into the earth. But at that time in my life, I had never seen a woman teach Bible. So to feel called to something or to have a sense of something that you've never seen.
It felt like a pioneer journey for me. Little did I know, women were out there teaching Bible, but that would come a little bit later for me. So you just fast forward down through the years, spent three years at Dallas Seminary. Like I said, I'm a nerd, spent three years on the mission field, learning God in the field. So I always say I value my 20s because I was able to learn with people in the classroom and I was able to learn with pilgrims in various lands in a missional sense.
But in 2007, and you know this so well, in my story, I went to study in Egypt and Israel, and I just tell people all the time, man, I went to Israel and just learned that God is better than I ever knew. And I've never recovered from that trip. And all these years later, I now take teams to Israel on biblical study trips. I love to teach the Bible in its historical cultural context.
I'm a visual learner. I learn by what I feel and what I see. So for me, being in the land, touching the land, eating the land, just that immersive learning, it's my favorite way of experiencing the Bible and experiencing it with people in community. So I'm in my 20th year of teaching Bible at Williamson College. So I love school so much. became a professor. You know, I was on staff at a church in Franklin.
and someone that was on staff at the college went to my church and they would come to my Bible studies and they were like, you should really, didn't you go to seminary? Don't you have a seminary degree? And I was like, yeah, I do. And so I interviewed and 20 years later, still going strong. And Williamson College, they're a family for me. It is a college, but it feels like a college family. And I think that's part of what the scriptures do. They bind us to God, but they bind us to one another.
as well. And I love my students. There's nothing that I won't do for my students. And there's something about classroom learning that's always just ignited something in me. I come out of the classroom and I'm ready to run through a brick wall, choke the devil out, just see the kingdom of God come. It's just rich space for me. What a gift to those students to have you as a professor. And I know when you teach, first of all, you are in my top
and I just, I did not know the Bible could be taught the way that you teach it. And I think so much of that is the approach that you take, which you've already said is communal. And for you, it's feasting and it is eating and savoring the scripture. So talk a little bit about why that approach, because that makes me think that, and I've never heard you say this, and if it's not true,
The way that we tend to teach the Bible these days is someone stands usually on a platform and everyone is in rows looking at them. But the way that you teach, that seems counter intuitive and counterproductive because that doesn't give us the chance to feast together. So what does it look like for you to teach the scriptures in a way that's communal and is a feast rather than
master teacher and everyone else is just listening. Such a great question. So one of my favorite things to do when I take teams to Israel is to visit ancient synagogues. So when we think about church quote unquote that Jesus would have experienced, he never went to church, he went to synagogue. And so when you walk into synagogue in Jesus's world 2000 years ago, the scriptures are literally positioned in the center of the room and the people are sitting around it listening to it.
So they're taking it in in this togetherness. And for the Jewish people, they talk a lot. It's not so much reading the Bible, no, we're eating it. We're taking it in. Psalm 19, the scriptures are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. Ezekiel, the angel of the Lord, brings him a scroll and tells him to eat it. And he ate it, Ezekiel 3, and it tasted unto him like honey. So I often joke,
Like how many of you would say like the best meal you could eat is when you don't have to cook? I would say that. the scriptures are like this feast prepared for us. So we're not so much just reading it, we're seeking to take it in. When we take it in, it will do its work. We're not orphans, we're not the fatherless, we don't have to dig something out to feed ourselves.
The Word of God is like a table set for us. Lady Wisdom, Proverbs 9, she's built her house, she set her table, she's made her meat, she's mixed her wine, she calls out from the highest point of the city, come, eat my meat, drink my wine. And so for me, I'm a Bible nerd, right? I've already said that. I read the Bible every day. I don't say that, that I'm holy. I just read the Bible every day. She's kind of who I am. It's kind of what I do.
But the richest times for me are communal. It's you and me at Starbucks and you bringing up some passage that you've been thinking about or processing or I bring up something to you. And then it's in that yeshiva. It's in that communal collective. You know, I think about Peter talks about in 1 Peter 2, each of us is like a living stone being built into a spiritual house. So I'm a living stone.
you're a living stone. When we come together, there's more of a richness, a fullness of the family of God, the house of God being present, experiencing the scriptures together. And that's changed it for me because I think the Bible moved from something to know as a way to experience someone. So good. Say that again. Look at the camera. For all the people out there joining us today.
That really shifted that for me because think about the difference in you when you pick up your Bible, if you're reading it to know something, to learn something, I would even say to master something versus opening it up, realizing you are not alone in that moment. The living God is there. The spirit of God is there and he wants you to experience him through that. I tell my students all the time at the college,
We never simply read the Bible, we interact with it. It's living and active and so are we. So when we sit down, we're asking questions, we're interacting, it's a dynamic living thing. And back to food, the best feasting that we can do is together. I'm not gonna go to a really nice restaurant by myself and just sit there. I'm gonna try to take friends with me to experience it, communally and collectively. So good. Well, you've mentioned the family of God several times.
Introduction and background (11:26.985)
Back to your family, I know that you and I have both lost our dads. So they are with Jesus now and having a just fabulous time. But for us, the loss of a parent and for all people who've lost a parent regardless of age or situation surrounding it, whether it was sudden or prolonged, it is a marker I have found. there
something transformational about that experience and everything is different going forward from that. So if you can talk a little bit about what the impact of no longer having your dad here has been like for you. Yeah, so I lost my father when I was 21. I was a senior in college and we found out that he had cancer and he went to Oxford, Mississippi.
a few hours from my hometown and had an operation and they were able to remove the cancer. He was in recovery. And I mentioned that part of the story because going into it, we're praying because lung surgery, you know, serious. And then he made it through and he's doing great. So I think in a way we all sort of, were breathing, we were calmed and three days into recovery, he passed away suddenly from a pulmonary embolism.
And I don't even know what that was at 21. What's a pulmonary embolism, a blood clot? And it shattered my world. I was a daddy's girl. I know you were too. We both had good fathers. We both have good fathers. They're not behind us. They are in front of us. We are now headed toward them. And so very much think of my father as in front of me in all the days of my life. I'm headed toward him and we'll be with him at the wedding supper of the lamb.
The thing about it that makes me feel joyful, mirthful, and hopeful in losing my father. To everything made beautiful. To everything made beautiful is that his legacy absolutely lives in me. And I can feel it. When I was a little girl, I can remember him reading Bible passages to me and then flipping to the map in the back, a map of Israel, and showing me on the map, that story happened here.
And I think even as a little girl, it was just grounding me in the idea that the Bible is a true story. This is the best and truest story that's ever been told. Like my dad is teaching me these stories and showing me where these things happened. And my father passed away when he was 64 and he never had the chance to go to Israel. He wanted to go all of his life. And so every time I'm in the land, I just think a McClellan made it. Yeah. A McClellan is here.
So I very much feel his legacy in me. He never lived to see, you know, just so much of my life. I wonder sometimes how all that works in heaven. Like, does the Lord fill them in on what's going on down here? Or do we do that? Is that what the wedding supper of the Lamb and part will be like? This great reunion? But I do feel like he's still in this earth through me. And that brings me a lot of joy and a lot of mirth because if he knew
that I take teams to Israel, he would be beside himself and he'd be on every trip. He would be my ride or die. He'd be on the bus with me, hiking with me, doing all of it with me. And so I just think about, I can imagine the smile on his face, you know, around that. So he's still here. He's still hearing me. So good. you know, part of the thing that we're looking for throughout this podcast
Ecclesiastes 311 says that he makes everything beautiful in its time. And I always think, interesting, he's making it beautiful in its time, not I decide what is and isn't beautiful and when. And so even in loss, like we've both experienced, and same, my dad passed away right at the beginning.
of me starting to teach the Bible in a really wide way. And so he too has not seen fully what has come, but he also passed away, he was 65. And so when we experience something like that, I do believe what you're saying, my dad was a Bible teacher. And so something is living on. And I love the idea that they're in front of us. We're headed toward
them. So thank you for sharing that. The other thing I think about when I think of you besides your Bible teaching is your community. You talk about your people the way I hope people will talk about me. You've talked about the way that they have held you in certain seasons, the way that they have shown up for you, carried you. You
specific things you do annually with specific groups of people that are, I just think of them as like Ebenezers in your life and in your story. So it's interesting to me that your approach of the Bible with feasting and in community, you are living out a communal existence. It's not a thing you say when you teach the Bible and then you kind of go back to your, you know, introverted or hermit -like life. You
such a broad and rich community. How? And for people who are like, how do I find my people? How did you find your people? Gosh, that's such a great, I'm just smiling from ear to ear, because you bring up my community and my heart just like overflows. But very simply, Shannon, and I would say this even more than storytelling, just in a way of like a gentle encouragement. When I think about, I call them my tribe.
We've all known each other 25 years and counting now, so we've lived a lot of life together. We have buried people together, we've gone through divorce together, we've gone through miscarriage together, we've gone through bankruptcy, mean, we've gone through hospitalizations, we've been through cancer together, but we've also been through the birth of babies and weddings and anniversaries and birthdays and supporting each other and the things that God is calling us to do,
When I look at my tribe, Shannon, I met every single one of them at church. And to the how and how did it all come together? Because I really think as a culture we're missing this. We got to know each other through serving together. It was literally hands in the dirt, clearing the parking lot.
you know, I would say cooking food, but that's them cooking food and me helping deliver it, different things like that. Or when a bomb would go off in our community, someone would pass away or something would happen the way we would rally. And I think that that's an important thing because when we come to church, you you think about, you ask yourself the question, why do I go to church? There's a phrase that I've been carrying.
really the last few years, and it's the inheritance of the saints. That when we walk into the local assembly as living stones being built into a spiritual house, part of why we're there is to inherit the saints around us. When you and I got saved, we got saved into a family. We got saved into the family of God. There's this rich inheritance of brothers and sisters in the faith.
that the living God is giving to us. And I'm an only child. I always wanted siblings. I wanted a bunch of siblings. So I think that I actually love my friends the way people love their siblings. Because I'm like, you need a kidney? Cool. You want the left one or the right one? You know, there's just no thing that I wouldn't do. And they love me like that in return. And I just think it's a good reminder. We are never going to
clever enough, fast enough, smart enough, self -sufficient enough, anything that we don't need each other in the body of Christ. And so I think about the fact that we met at church, there's already a common orientation of faith and longing and a sense of belonging and serving, even in all of our different giftings and all of the
the diversity of who we are racially, ethnically, financially, age -wise, you know, we're all over the map. We're this ragtag here, there, and yonder, but we stick because we've stuck for 25 years because Jesus is the center and a commitment to King and Kingdom and a commitment to each other, you know, in the King and the Kingdom. And so I love my people, man. I love them.
They're my ride or die. I have come to know the love of God through them. In the loss of my father, I think about my guy friends. When I bought my house, they gave me the wisdom. They sat down and they walked me through that. When I buy a car, one of them goes with me. They just show up like siblings for me in my life. And I think the other thing that's just in my rib right now, so I'm gonna say it, is we just have to
being willing to find various points of vulnerability to put ourselves out there. I think we're more closed than we realize. I think COVID messed us up. We're still trying to come out of that. But any just good relationship is gonna require you to be open, to be willing. To Well, and to show parts of yourself that you normally hold back. my gosh, yes. And so for a people to know my story.
and to look at me and say, I hear your story and I choose you in it. I choose you in all of it, let's go. That's just been so healing and restorative. And so it's just back to that sense of there's an orphan in me, in my story somehow. I had two parents that loved the Lord. I've already talked a little bit about that. And with that sense of an orphan, there's a sense of scarcity in my story. And I think so much of the way the Lord walks with me.
and the things that he does in me is I never want anyone to feel alone or lonely. And I never want anyone to feel like they don't have enough or that they're not gonna have the resources for what they need because I know the terror of both of those. And so I think sometimes we seek to give that which we know we need, you know? And so that's kinda how I show up in the earth.
You know, I just want everybody to feel welcomed like they belong. There's a seat at the table for you. Pull up a chair. You're not by yourself. you need something? Okay. Well, if I don't have it, let me go ask somebody that has it. Let me do what I can to resource you. Yeah. Yeah. So good. And I think, I mean, you know, he who has friends must show himself friendly. There's the there's the first step for us if we're wanting authentic ride or die community.
that we have to be willing to come to the middle on that and put ourselves out there. And I can say as a raging introvert who chooses to be in my home, if given the option between being out or being in, I'd choose in. The way that I have found my people has definitely come in the willingness to meet in the middle and come halfway and be vulnerable and be
This may not be what you were thinking, but this is who I am and I understand if you're now not in and the people who are in are in. So thank you for sharing that. I know it's been so sweet for you and I know one of the things that your community experienced recently was the loss of Mandisa as such a shining light and gift.
And I know you have a specific connection with the Bible study that you wrote of Jesus and women. So tell us a little bit about Mandisa. I know that there is an honor in her legacy when her people talk about her, but also how God used her specifically in the Jesus and women story. Man, thank you for asking, because it's just, it's an opportunity for me to honor her even in this moment,
You know, if you were to ask people to describe Mandisa in one word, you would get a lot of different words because she was, her life was so rich. She's just so many different things to different ones of us. But my one word for Mandisa is she was a lever in this world. She was a kingdom of God lever. And what I mean by that is left, right, up, down, all around, as she ended up doing it for me too, she would meet someone.
And she would leverage herself to try to get them where they needed to be. And she was never afraid for it to cost her. She would spend herself to get you yourself. She would spend herself to get you where you needed to go, what you needed to help you get where you needed to go. And so specifically to the Jesus and Women study that Lifeway published with me in March of 2020 when COVID hit.
But to back it up a year, I'd been teaching that series in the city for two or three years, different churches. I think around 2000 women had come through it. so Mandisa and my friend Tammy Jensen, they came and they were like, on the front row, we're gonna support you. We're gonna go through this with you. And there was a Chick -fil -A right next to the church where I was teaching it. And we got a couple of weeks into
And Mandisa comes up to me and if you don't know Mandisa, you can't tell her no. What Mandisa says just moves in the earth. And that's just part of who she is and what she's like. So she comes up to me at the end and she goes, hey, Tammy and I, want to take you to Chick -fil -A next door. And I'm like, cool, I'm hungry, let's go. And we're sitting there and I'll never remember it because Mandisa is full of energy. The way you see her on a stage is a little bit what she's like when she's sitting at Chick -fil -A. She's just full of love and energy.
And I remember she was sitting beside me and she got up and went around and sat like, you're sitting with me right now. And she squared up to me and she was like, Kristi, you need to publish Jesus in Women. And I was like, no, sis, I'm good. My passion is taking people to Israel. If you wanna go to Israel with me, I'm your huckleberry, but filming and wearing fake eyelashes and fancy clothes
I've never done a Lifeway Bible study, like, I'm not really sure about all of this. And she's like, no, like, this has to move in the earth. This has got to get out of Franklin, Tennessee. So she's really not giving me an option. She's sort of telling me the will of the Lord for myself. And I remember that night she just said, I'm going to schedule a meeting at Lifeway and I'm going to come with you and we're going to go and we're going to talk to them about Jesus and women.
So sure enough to no Mandiso, once she's decreed it, it is in the earth. a few weeks later, I'm at Lifeway with her and Tammy Jensen and she's leveraging. mean, she's just telling them about me, about my impact in her life, how she's sitting through this study and how she wants to see it published. I mean, I think by the end of that meeting, I'd already signed my contract. I mean, it feels like it was just sort of a done deal. It was wild, but I will always say,
that the reason hardly anyone even knows me outside of Franklin, Tennessee is because of Mandisa. And the reason that Jesus and women exist now and is traveling throughout the earth, it's because of her. She was the catalyst for that. She was the tip of the sword for that. She came to all of the filmings coaching me up, because it was a brand new world for me. So she's backstage with me, coaching me up, cheering. I mean, she was my
She was my midwife in that project. I was birthing something for the very first time and she was just cheering me on and celebrating. And when it came out, she just leveraged her platform to promote it and different things. she's just this, the orphan in me, the scarcity in me, I feel like it crashed into the abundance efficiency of Mandisa.
she showed me what it's like to live from a place of fullness. And she was very open too about her struggles and things in her own life. And I'm just like, man, how is she just so, like you're so free in light even in how you talk about your own story and some of your challenges and how God is meeting you in that. So I think I learned how to be more vulnerable being her friend, but she's a huge
of my life and story and ministry because now you fast forward and again she was just always, I remember when Gospel on the Ground came out, my second study with Lifeway and we were just texting and she was like, I knew it. She was like, I knew it would be the beginning of something, you know, not that it would be Jesus and women and then it would go to nothingness and she was, I can just, I can see her smiling, I can hear her laugh and just her joy.
and watching something flourish for me. That's profound. When the Bible talks about rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn, sometimes I think we can cry together, but to truly celebrate the successes of another, the goodness happening to another, I don't know anybody that did that any better than her. So thank you for even bringing her up and asking. We miss her. And again, we know we're headed toward her. She's in front of us.
not behind us. I can't even imagine her voice in heaven. I'm glad we'll get to hear it one day. first, you know, I would imagine some people moved over. Yeah, yeah. She's on a beach somewhere singing. That's the way I envision her now. But yeah, just a faithful woman. What a legacy. Yeah. And, you know, part of everything being made beautiful because of her willingness to leverage her platform and her reach and her relationships. have Jesus and women. So
What a special, special woman. And I'm so inspired by the way I'm watching those of you that were close to her celebrate her and take comfort in the hope of heaven. It's been really inspiring. To shift gears a little bit, we would be remiss if we did not discuss Chester. We would be outside of the will of God if we did not bring up Chester. So Chester is
precious, precious dog. No one is confused about whether I'm a dog person. I would choose dogs over people most of the time. But Chester is a special, special guy. So tell us, brag on him. I want to you the floor. I want to honor Chester in this moment. Okay, y 'all. So Chester, he's a schnauzer. He's about 20 pounds and he's named after one of my favorite theologians, GK Chesterton.
but Chesterton felt too long, so Chester. I joke that he's a Christian because I've read the Chronicles of Narnia to him and the Bible and he understands his assignment. He's a Narnian dog in this world. And he's 15 and a half years old now, but he's still doing great. So we're in the geriatric phase of life, but he's still running and jumping and playing. He is completely deaf.
So we've been working on sign language and different things like that, but his ears are just still, he looks like he can hear you. He wants you to feel heard, but he really can't hear you. But he's my guy. know, he gave me the gift. And I mean this, it's funny how the Lord will use creation. And I mean that in our lives from the sunsets to sunrises to our pets. But Chester started my 5 a walk. I didn't used to walk.
I've been an athlete my whole life. go to the gym, but I would wake up and just get my coffee and settle in, read my Bible, something like that. When I got Chester at six weeks old, puppy, you know, taking him out every morning. And so that started this rhythm that we've had now for 15 and a half years. And it has become my most sacred spiritual rhythm. When people ask me, what is that one thing you do, Kristi, that just helps you stay centered in the Lord, connected to the Lord.
just thriving in the Lord. It's my 5 a walk with Chester because the sun is not up yet. We take off with a cup of coffee in one hand and his leash in the other. And I don't take earbuds. I don't take my phone. It's just me and the Lord and my dog walking in creation, starting a brand new day. And he gave me the gift of that, you know, and it's something that will continue because one day he is going to go the way of the earth.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It will be a very sorrowful day for me, but I have loved loving him and being his person. And he loves me and my community. I mean, he is a welcomer. If you come to my house, his whole body's just wiggling. He wants to make sure you feel welcome and like you have a place in our home.
but I love him and I know you've got three. I have three. I mean, what's like having three? I'm trying to imagine three Chesters. It is wonderful because, you know, we've rescued all of them. Yes. And they just, the thing about dogs that I think is honestly very different from all other pets, I'm sure somebody's going to reach out now and explain to me that it's not different, but I do think it's specific to dogs. They want to be part of your world. Yeah.
they don't say, is my world, be part of it, which is kinda how feel like cats are. I feel like cats are just kinda like, yeah, this is what I do, get on board or don't. Dogs are like, what are you doing, let's do that. And so the other thing is they are like clockwork with the way that they are always overjoyed at your presence. And
I have said more than once that dogs have just healed me in some seasons of my life. And it's like you said, I mean, God created them and then gave them to us as a gift. You know, I think I may have told you this before, but my husband has a theology of animals. he says, know, scripture says several times, God opened their mouths, Balaam's donkey, et cetera. And so he's wondering if one of the things that happened at the fall,
was shutting of the mouths of animals. Cause you know, we had the serpent talking in the garden, know, those sorts of things. Let's go Jeff. Yeah. And so he's wondering if we're going to get to heaven and find all their voices. I hope so. I like that thought. You may get to hear Chester's like actual speaking voice, which, Hey, I just kind of like thinking about that. beautiful thought for me to carry today. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. If you're out there listening. Thank you. Yes. So you may get to hear his voice one day.
have to gush just for a moment. I mostly want to hear from you, but I cannot miss an opportunity to say that speaking of God bringing people along at the right time, that is what He did for me with you. I don't remember the very, very first time that I heard you teach necessarily, but I do remember the first time that we met. And I don't know if you remember this.
but you were just starting to be on the schedule regularly as a teaching pastor at Church of the City. And I was coming on staff as the children's pastor at Church of the City. And so they gave us both laptops and we needed to be in an orientation about how we were gonna use those laptops because they were church property or whatever. And so you and I got set beside each other on some random Wednesday in
orientation that we were both kind of looking at each other like, I feel like I know how to use a laptop. Is there something I don't know how to use? But they were so detailed and good about it that we came to orientation and I thought then, ooh, she feels like one of my people. Like, I feel like we experience the world similarly. We have some of the same, you know, humor and sarcasm. And so I wanted to know you more. And then when I heard you teach the Bible, I was of course in.
Similar to you, I had not heard many women teach the Bible and had been taught that they couldn't. So you have been such a gift in many ways as I have journeyed, but you have been such a strong source of counsel, specifically in decision making. And so I've met with you countless times over a host of decisions in my life. And I would just love for people
who are watching or listening to get to experience and have the gift of your wisdom. So one of the most profound things that you said to me, I remember that I was in a decision -making season of do I keep being the primary children's pastor or do I pass that role off to someone else? And just as I
navigating that decision one day when we were talking, you said something that just stopped me because you talked a little bit about your own experience with transition and a decision you had made, and you said, I was really aware of when the grace to do it had lifted. And I just said, say that again. And you said the grace to do it had lifted. And so from that point on, my prayer around that particular decision and in many sense has been
God has the grace to do this lifted. And the reason I'd love for you to talk about it and for people to hear this is for those of us who know, love, and follow Jesus, and for many of us who are in ministry full -time, and by that I mean doing overtly Jesus things with our lives, sometimes the decision to stop doing something that is Jesus -related
and we know all of life is, but specifically ministry, things like that, can feel like a wrong decision to even be considering, because why would we ever stop doing something that's overtly Jesus -related? But when you said, the grace to do it has lifted, that freed me in a way I am not appropriately articulating right now. But would you just talk about how that phrase came to be, why it's a filter for you,
how our people can start having that as their consideration when making decisions and when really wanting to do what God's asking of them. Absolutely. I remember that conversation that we had. And just to say this quickly, I feel like we never became friends. I felt like we met and were friends. Yes, I agree. Because I don't remember the becoming. I don't remember like knowing you and not being friends. It was like an immediate thing. But, you know, back to my community, it was a gift.
One of my friends said that to me. So I served on staff for a church for 17 years and started to feel, sometimes it's called holy discontent, but just a rumbling, know, a rumbling in my chest almost. And what I started noticing is things that I had been doing in ministry for a very long time, all of a sudden I was struggling to do it. All of a sudden, and my first thoughts were, what's wrong with me?
Wait a minute, I've been doing this forever. Why does it feel so strange now or weird? Why am I having to push? It's almost like I was out of rhythm, out of whack, out of alignment all of a sudden in my own life. And I was processing this with my friends because it's what does this mean? Like, what does this mean for me? And it was one of them that said to me, know, Kristi maybe just the grace to do it has left you and it's just time to move
And the moment she said it, it hit me as truth that I don't think we think enough as Western Protestant Christians about sacred time. That there's often a grace sufficient for a time, for a task, for a season. There's the general grace of God that's always moving and working.
And so I think when we're flowing and we're walking with the Lord and we're in these ministry assignments or in these vocational ministry assignments or anything in life, if you wake up, and this is what I would say, Shannon, this is what's important. If you wake up and you know that your heart is given to God, meaning you're not out there, you've not gone wayward, your heart is not hard.
Your love and affection is not turned away from God. You're not reaching for the other things. Are you following me? You see what I'm saying? But if you wake up and you know you're toward the Lord and you want to walk King and Kingdom, let's go. But something that you've been doing just isn't working anymore. It may not mean that anything is wrong with you at all. It actually may mean something is right with you that the Lord is transitioning you out of that thing
out of that season, out of that era, for me it was 17 years, that's an era, that's not a season, into something new. And if we're trying to answer the question, what's wrong with me, that's gonna make us hunker down and start striving and straining just to keep doing it. But if we're asking the question, man, has the grace left me to do this? That makes us look up and out, wait a minute, Lord, what are you doing? Is there something new?
and questions lead to answers. You see what I'm saying? And so it just has become a thing for me where I pay attention to my grace meter. I'm just like, man, there's a lot of grace for this, a lot of energy in this, this is good. We don't know the concept of necessary endings. I think we know how to begin things, we don't know how to end things. We know how to begin things and sustain things, but we don't know how to end things.
But transition is just as much a part of the spiritual journey as the Genesis and the journey itself, those transitions, the turns in the road. So I remember that day that we had that conversation. I remember your eyes because when I said it, there was like a flicker, like something in your soul could read that and know that that was helping you and your journey. And I just think, honestly, we're hard on ourselves, Shannon.
You know, I think when we start feeling dry or weak or whatever, I don't know why we tend to punch inward as my therapist would say, you know, but what's wrong with me? We need better questions. We need more spiritually mature, nuanced questions, which will lead us to much better spiritual answers. It's so good. I mean, it was freeing for me like few other things have been
I'm gonna look directly to the camera when I say this. If you are in a season of transition, ask the question, God, is it that there's not something wrong with me? Is it that the grace to do this has lifted or has left me? And here's a pro tip. Everybody else is gonna be uncomfortable when the grace to do it has lifted. Everybody else is more comfortable if you keep doing the thing.
But if the grace to do it has lifted, it is really important that you pay attention to that because to Christie's point, the straining and the striving and the, okay, well, I'll be a good soldier, it is not what God is leading you toward in that if the grace to do that thing has lifted. I had the same experience you did of things that have come naturally to me over decades that I found profound joy in have become
difficult and I tend to be a good soldier. so thank you. other thing is I think we read it as a subtraction rather than a transition to addition. Yes. That there is something new. We're not just losing something. No, there's something new for us to step toward. Yes. Seasons come to pass. yeah. Another time that
kind of got in my face a little bit. Like that one, that one was sweet. This one had a little edge to I love you, friend. I love you, friend. And I was contemplating decision -making and in this particular scenario, I found myself doing a lot of things and I can do a lot of things and I was doing a lot of things. And I was struggling. I had the holy discontent and I said to you,
look, I just want to be somebody who says yes to God and who says yes to the people who are asking me to do these things. Like, I want to be humble and I want to say yes. And you said, friend, there is no virtue in doing what you've been asked to do when it isn't what God is asking you to do. And you said, you need to start being more generous with your no.
And I remember going, I need a minute. Because again, when you're a good soldier, you tend to be a good soldier no matter what. And to your point, there isn't the nuance of, okay, God.
everything's for you, but is this what you are asking of me? And you said if you were, you know, 19 or 20 and cutting your teeth in ministry and, you know, just you needed to just glean and learn, but you were like, you're in your 40s and you know what God's made you for. So basically you were just kind of pushing on my, just want to be humble and do whatever. And you're like, yeah.
That's a cop out basically. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. You can talk about them, talk to the camera, you talk about me, you know, so, but it was uncomfortably profound and I needed it. I remember that conversation too.
I remember it. know, well, the age thing is important because I would say for those of you joining in, if you're young, man, this is your time to be adventurous. Try different things. Get out there. The world is a big, beautiful place. There's a lot of beautiful people in it. You've not even remotely met all the people who are going to love you in this life. Go take your adventures. And as we get into our thirties and our forties and just 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, you know, we're being instruments.
finely tuned in the kingdom of God. We are the handiwork of the Lord. And what I've learned is it's me not only stewarding my gifts in the kingdom of God and service to King Jesus in the kingdom, but it's stewarding my gifts in the season and era that I'm in. So I'll give you just a perfect, like, right now example. I get invited to do different things.
And some of them just aren't in my will house. Some of them, they are great things. They are good things, but they're not good or great things for me to do. should do them. Someone should absolutely do them. They are good works, like unto Christ Jesus, as we would say. And so I think that that being generous with your no, what I have found is being generous with my no. And see for me in my story, Shannon,
The tough thing about that is that hits up against my orphan and that scarcity because I will go to, well, you need to say yes, because if you say no, is another opportunity gonna come? Kristi if you say no to this, are you gonna be missing out? Are you gonna have enough? Is there gonna be enough? And so you need to know my default on the inside of me is to strive and strain.
It is that orphan that's worried. I going to have enough to eat? It's that scarcity. There's not enough. I've got to get out there and make sure I'm doing enough to have enough. And mine is people pleasing. Okay. if I'm generous with my no, they'll, they'll be mad at me or they won't like me or they, you know, they may not ask me again, but it won't be the about the opportunity. It'll be because I disappointed them. That's right. And so for those of you out there joining us, think
What inside of you directs your yeses and your nos? What's that thing inside of you that you answer out of it? When something comes to you, for her it's people pleasing, for me it's the orphan scarcity thing, what's yours? And that's a really good question for you to answer, to have a sense of. And so that whole idea of just because we're asked to do something and just because we're asked to do something good, just because we're asked to do something great,
Like when a ship takes on too much and the red line goes under the water. I have a friend, her name is Debbie French, and she always talks about the red line on a ship. And when you feel that red line in your life, it's gone underwater, you're carrying too much. And I don't know about you, but I do not care to be the jack of all trades and the ace of nothing. You see what I'm saying? And the older I get, you know, in my 40s now,
I wanna be more of a finely tuned instrument in the hand of the Lord. Shannon, I got asked to go speak at this children's conference. Shannon. Shannon Scott. Let us tell the truth. Let us be clear on this. I like kids, they scare me. And little bitty kids like the pre -k -ers, like pre -k kindergarten.
The thought of me teaching the Bible to them, I think I would just rather do almost anything. Not that they're not lovely little cherubs made in the image of God. Someone should do it. But I'm almost clear, because I'm a Bible nerd. I'm going to get up and start talking about the hippostatic union with pre -Kers. And it's just not helpful. I'm not good at that. I'm honestly not good at teaching.
children, that is not an arrow that I have in my quiver. That's not a tool in my toolbox. And so it's just being okay with that. Like, man, you don't want me to come do that. It will not be good. There are better ways for me to serve your pre -cares or your kindergartners. Let me play with them out on the playground at recess or whatever. I can do that all day long. And so I think that there's just something
really identifying at the core of each one of us that grid of decision making. When an invitation comes your way or a job assignment comes your way or something within your job comes your way, running it through that filter, knowing yourself and being able to respond in such a way that just because you got asked doesn't mean it's something that you should do. And that's just back to us, man, keeping, I think it's us keeping
our wicks of our lamps trimmed. Do you see what I'm saying? It's just sort of staying in rhythm and in concert because if I am exactly who I was even in ministry three years ago, that means I've not been living these past three years. If I'm exactly who I was six months ago, no, I'm a living stone being formed into a spiritual house. Do you see what I'm saying? And so that's really opened me up the orphan scarcity thing in me because now I'm learning to
the fact that probably next year, new things are gonna come my way. And some of them are gonna get a no, and some of them are gonna get a yes, but I have a better sense of me and how I'm making that decision. Yeah, so good. I mean, there are 25 ,000 things that you've said. I just chose three for this because I think it can be so helpful for people. The thing will land on that you said to me,
in this most recent transition that I made that was really hard for me because you've called me a church girl. You're like, you're a church girl. And so this recent transition of coming off of a church staff, which is what I've known for the better part of 30 years, was very difficult for me to make because it's one thing if something's wrong and everything's going wrong and you're like, I gotta make a change. The harder things are what we've been talking about when it's
This isn't an issue of good or bad or even right or wrong. This is what season are you in and what's God leading you to. But one of the things you said, again, that was so freeing is you said, Shannon, just get in the river. The river is moving. The river is Jesus. The river is moving. We are in his wake. Just get in the river. It's not about swimming. It's not about hustling. It's not about, you know, striving and making something happen. Just get in the river.
And so on the days when I start feeling a little like, am I doing? What was I thinking? I recalibrate with, I'm getting in the river. that river. So talk about that. I think that will be such an encouragement to people because especially for women, I think we're like, where's my list and what am I doing? And I got to do, and I'll be rewarded for doing. And there's something so freeing about, no, God's doing.
I'm getting in the river. So for me, the only child in me, I'm very imaginative. I have an imagination that can just run for miles. And when I imagine the kingdom of God, just the imagery that comes up for me is that it's like a river flowing. It is moving. It is active. It's moving through the earth. Jesus talked about the kingdom of God's like a mustard seed. When mustard seed is planted, it starts growing.
The kingdom of God is like yeast and dough. You put yeast and dough, it starts growing and spreading and moving. And I think the river concept came to me from my time in Israel because you have the Sea of Galilee up in the north and it feeds into the Jordan River, which comes down into the Dead Sea. And the Dead Sea is called the Dead Sea because the water is dead. It doesn't move. And so when I'm in Israel and I see the waters of the Jordan moving,
from the Sea of Galilee down into the Dead Sea, I think about, I want to live like a river and not a lake. I want my life to be on the move with Jesus. Jesus isn't static. When you read the Gospels, He's here, He's there, He's yonder, going to solitary places to pray and to rest, being back among the people, being with the disciples, being in the Galilee, going down to Jerusalem. And so He's a man on the move. And so when I think about waking up every morning,
One of my daily prayers at 5 a as I'm walking Chester at the beginning of a new day is, Lord, I just want to get in the river with you today. That ancient river that was moving in the earth before I was ever even born, it will still be in the earth moving after I am gone. But God is here.
He is moving and doing things. And so it's less about us creating brand new things or coming up with brand new things. No ancient faith, moving faith, living faith like a river. So what would it look like for us to wake up in our fundamental agreement to each and every day as a follower of Jesus is, Lord, I just want to get in the river with you. What you're already doing, I want to be in flow with you. Where you're already moving, I want to move in concert with you.
I wanna go when you go, I wanna slow when you slow. And that's just given me so much, honestly, like a Sabbath rest even in my work, this sense that, he's already working. I'm just sort of tuning in. I'm plugging in, I'm getting in the river. And I think about that, it's literally as part of my prayer every morning at 5 a
Lord I just want to get in the river with you today. Wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, whatever that kingdom of God flow in the world is today that you have for me, here I am. I'm saying yes to you, King and kingdom, let's go. so good. So we're gonna end with the question I ask every guest. I can't wait. Are you ready? I'm ready. So you know everything made beautiful is
point of this podcast for a reason. I think we have enough people telling us everything's wrong. I think we have enough people bemoaning all of the things that are wrong. But as followers of Christ, we are not only living for a beautiful that is to come, but there is a renewal and a beauty that is happening consistently and constantly. Whether or not we can see it isn't the point. He's making it beautiful. But I do believe when we
asking to see it, we will see it in a way that we didn't before with just human eyes or temporal eyes. And so because there's beauty now, here's your question. Are you ready? I'm ready. If you could design your perfect, beautiful day, what would it look like from start to finish? From start to finish? My most beautiful day. Okay, the only child is gonna do this. So.
I may shut my eyes some, because I'm going to try to imagine this. So I would wake up at 5 a on the Sea of Galilee. Chester would be there. And we would start the morning with coffee and a walk on the beach of the Sea of Galilee. We'd watch the sun come up. I would breathe for a little while. But then there would be people there. So around eight o 'clock, we would all get together.
Maybe go up on the Arbel Cliffs, Bible teaching, kind of some of these biblical stories right where it happened. Maybe go down to ancient Capernaum, maybe take a boat ride across the Sea of Galilee, just being together. We would have shawarma for lunch. It's my absolute most favorite food in Israel. Then those people would go do something glorious in the afternoon because I would go play golf. Okay.
I would go play golf with maybe any of those people that like to play golf. Maybe they could take Chester. I could go play golf. We'd come back early evening where we would have chicken, fettuccine, alfredo, because that's my absolute most favorite food in all the earth. Maybe with a side of crawfish. I know that doesn't like kind of go together, but crawfish is my second favorite food.
and we would all sit around, we would talk about our day, what we had seen, what we had learned, what we enjoyed the most. I'd probably take Chester on a little walk about 8 .40 p That's very specific because at 9 p I would get into bed and go to sleep and that would be the end of my most beautiful day. Ooh, that was great. And very specific. It was, I love it. That would be it for me.
You are a joy. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for inviting me. know it's hard to just be like, come talk about yourself and give us all your wisdom. But thank you. I'm going to hold this up so that people who are watching it on video can see. You want to get everything Christie has written. Jesus and Women and Gospel on the Ground are her Bible studies. But Rediscovering Israel is the book that she released this past year that you have got.
to get. I have to tell you that the thing that makes me most excited about this is having read this, I'm also going to Israel with you. you are. Yes you are, friend. I cannot wait. I went once when I was 18 years old and now I get to go back as someone who teaches from the pages and I get to be in the land and I can't wait. But tell us really quickly before we go, you have a new
that you're working on. Tell us about that and when we can expect it. Yes, so I'm working on my second book with Harvest House. It's called Feasting on God's Word, and it's essentially 16 of my most favorite Bible passages and teachings. These are the ones that they're like stuck in my ribs. They live with me. These are not teachings in a notebook on a bookshelf. These are teachings that live inside of me. They live, move, and have their being. They guide me. They direct me.
So it's really personal in a fun way, because it's not like publishing my journal, because who would do that? But it is like publishing my biblical journal, the passages that have meant the most to me. So it comes out in January 2025, Rediscovering Israel. It's crazy to even see it in book form right now, because I taught that content for years and years and years. It's the story of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation in its historical cultural context, the Bible in its world.
as I like to say. So I often say, like after all these years of taking teams to Israel, the publishing projects are a way for me to bring Israel here. Yeah. For people that may never get to Israel or who've gone and want to remember it. So as I get to be a two -way bridge, I get to take people from here to Israel and then through the things that I'm publishing to be able to bring Israel and the Bible in its world here, which is passion of mine. And thank you for saying yes to that because it's a
to all of us. Thank you, Fran. Well, I hope that you who have been listening and watching have a wonderful rest of your day. I hope that you see opportunities all around you to behold the way that God is truly making everything beautiful. The things that we have talked about today, the resources, they will be in the show notes. And so you can grab those when we are finished here. Christi, thank you. Yeah.
I can't wait for us to do this again. There's so many more things we can be talking about. You guys have a great day and we will see you next time. Go get in that river.