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A podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the local church in counseling and discipleship.
Welcome to Speak The Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.
Mike:Hello. Hello. Hello. I am still on the road at the Canadian Biblical Counseling Coalition Conference talking about mental health in the church. And I'm excited about this episode because I get to have my brother Jeemin Moon with us.
Mike:He was able to join us this time last year when we were at the conference last year. Jeemin, how are doing, brother?
Jeemin:Jeemin: Doing really well. Thank you, Mike. It's great to be had by you and just sharing this time with you, brother. Yeah, it's great.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Glad to have you, man. Glad to have you. I wanted to have Jimin on because as we talk about mental health in the church and what he's bringing to the conversation, so I thought it would be really helpful for us as we if I can say it this way, having eschatological scope of just our health, mental health, and our glory that we're waiting for, the living hope that we will have in our resurrected bodies.
Mike:And so we're gonna be looking at Hebrews chapter two. Yes, sir. Jimin's working on some things. And so before we jump into the text, Jimin, you wanna give an update on just, man, what you've been up to this last year. We're talking to you already.
Mike:It sounds like quite a bit.
Jeemin:Quite a bit. Yes. So the entire last year, I was again, I got a couple hats. One, I teach full time as a director of biblical care and counseling studies at Heritage College and Seminary that's up in Cambridge, Ontario. And this is a fairly new program about two years in.
Jeemin:We're growing and having wonderful students, just love them. So that's been my full time. And on the other end, I'm a full time student as well. So I just finished this comprehensive exam, this massive books and writings and headaches the entire year, but it was really formative and awesome. So I do PhD at Southern Seminary under Jeremy Pierre and with my wonderful colleagues.
Jeemin:So I was able to take that exam last December and thankfully passed it. The profs were gracious enough, I think. So now I am this writing mode for my dissertation. So hopefully, I can finish it by next February to graduate by next May. Lord willing.
Jeemin:So you can pray for me.
Mike:Yeah. So with that, can you can you share the details of what you're writing about?
Jeemin:Sure thing. So I'm writing about shame, a biblical theology of shame, and also biblical theology of God's covering as a central motif or metaphor, but also reality, how that speaks into the experience of shame and in a way better than anything that's out there. So that's my bold attempt too.
Mike:That is awesome. Yep. That is awesome. That's a lot.
Jeemin:It's a lot, man.
Mike:And congratulations on passing that. I know that's a Thank you. That's a lot. It's very rigorous
Jeemin:Very.
Mike:To say the least.
Jeemin:Whoo. Yes.
Mike:Yeah. So that's great. That's great. And being at Heritage, what are you working on now at Heritage? Obviously, with using ABC level one, I overheard you yesterday saying, is it year three or four where
Jeemin:Yeah. Year four. Yes.
Mike:They're implementing the level one certification.
Jeemin:Exactly. So we use ABC's level one equipped to counsel for our fourth year. So all the other degree programs such as youth or worship or pastoral, we have the one year internship. So our students find their ministry in the field. They do preach and lead music and lead youth and stuff.
Jeemin:In case of counseling though, what's tricky is our fourth year students, though they are maturing, they're still 21, 22. And in the church, the year, 50 year old marriage counseling might not fall under their category or their expertise yet, right? So instead of sending them off for a counseling internship and stuff, we actually have them in house and using ETC. We have this practicum one and two over two semesters. So we incorporated the core material from ABC, adding some more videos or books or other things.
Jeemin:But honestly, what ABC level one has, it's quite a lot. And it's not just bachelor's work, master's level, it covers the church and it covers the ages and different cultures. So since we adopted it two years ago, teaching it now, it'll be second time, myself and Curtis Heaton. It's been wonderful, not just for the students, but for me to revisit those materials. I'm certified by ABC, but whenever I visited again, those journal articles and the core ETC textbook, or even just counseling supervisions, I learned a lot.
Jeemin:And our students love how thorough it is. Quite honestly, they're like burden as well. They just jam by so many readings and so many writings, but they enjoy it. And I see them growing because we use ABC for our year for senior students. That's how we do it.
Jeemin:When they graduate, they walk with a diploma, but also ABC level one certificate. So that's double whammy, man.
Mike:Yeah. That's, that is a lot. That's good though. I think that's structurally speaking. I think that's a good way to implement that when they're three, three years in or so.
Mike:So that's really good.
Jeemin:Oh, yeah.
Mike:That's good. Alright, Jimein. When you had the opportunity to speak at this conference and y'all were thinking about what part of it you wanted to take, why did you choose this particular area of the resurrection?
Jeemin:That's a great question. So actually, this came first as a writing project. So there is a I don't know if I can share it or not, but there's a book coming. It's titled A Theology for Trauma, written by a couple of props at Southern and a bunch of PhD graduates or current PhD students in counseling department. And it's a systematic theology and theological thinking of the experience of trauma.
Jeemin:And I think there's no book as such. So we're writing and each of our students and faculty picking one or two chapters and the only chapter left was chapter 13 and resurrection. So I didn't have a choice, but I loved it. And I developed it as a lecture material here for forty minutes, fifty minutes of a Q and A session. That's how I came to lecture it here at the conference.
Mike:No, that's great. Thank you for sharing. And so with that, why don't we get into Hebrews chapter two? You got your Bible open. I could use Logos, but might as well stick to the good old crisp paper flipping.
Mike:And you wanna read your section of papers?
Jeemin:Yeah. It's quite a let's say it's verses five through 18. Do you want me to
Mike:read the book? Absolutely. Okay. Let's read it.
Jeemin:So starting from verse five, a superscripture says, the founder of salvation. For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking, it has been testified somewhere, what is man that you are mindful of him or the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little for a little while lower than the angels. You have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet. Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control.
Jeemin:At present, here and now, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him, but we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by grace of God, he might taste death for everyone. That's quite significant. Verse 10. For it was fitting that he for whom and by whom all things exist in bringing many sons to glory, to salvation, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering, like trauma. Not that Jesus was traumatized.
Jeemin:For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source, the Holy Spirit, I believe. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers to divine adoption here, saying, verse 12, I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation. I will sing your praise, and again, I will put my trust in him, and again, behold, I and the children of God has given me. The last section, verse 14. Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood with Jesus, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to life long slavery, such as traumatic experiences.
Jeemin:For surely, it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Last verse, for because he himself has suffered when tempted, he's able to help those who are being tempted. Word of the Lord.
Mike:This is the word of the Lord. Praise be to God. That's great. Jimin, thank you for reading the Lord's word on that. And I think this is where it's relevant to our conversation because much of what we're talking about with mental health, a huge part of mental health is trauma.
Mike:Right. Right? Whether it's self imposed or self inflicted, it's still part of the conversation. And along with that comes the idea of our sort of our identity lenses of being in Christ of sufferer. So you wanna talk a little bit about just a movement of that text and and why giving the given the title of your message, which, just for the sake of our listeners here, The Light in the Darkness, The Threefold Identity and Ministry of Our Resurrected Savior for Trauma Stuffers.
Jeemin:That's right. Yeah. So here's a central thesis from my book, and I can't quite articulate it without looking at it.
Mike:It's okay.
Jeemin:Yeah. So this is the thesis.
Mike:Yeah, you're good.
Jeemin:And this is my take on biblical picture of trauma. So trauma is an experience that forces people to look into the face of death and to live under the shadow of death far beyond their personal resources, such as physical, spiritual, mental, and emotional resources can handle. And people of God living under that persistent darkness of trauma is what the Prince of Darkness wants. So that's how I see, again, we all have our painful past or even traumatic events, and we carry those memories as part of our brain cells or pieces of stories and even marks on our bodies and our souls. And I just thought about the biblical binary of light and darkness.
Jeemin:We were walking in the darkness. That's not knowing the gospel of Jesus, but also darkness of our past, of our traumas. And even after salvation, many Christians cry out, How long, O Lord, that you will not shine your face on me? I understood that because a person us seeing the face of death, meaning somewhat a deadly experience, whether it is physical or even emotional relational, and in that term maybe divorce because of one person's infidelity can become a traumatic event. So I try to encapsulate not just physical trauma, but spiritual, emotional trauma.
Jeemin:And again, life is not meant to be living under darkness of death, but after the fall, as we know, let's say, sin, suffering, death, shame, and everything is part and parcel of our embodiment. And to a degree, we carry those marks until we die. So people, and we often think that the darkness of trauma is forever. We carry this thick cloud over us wherever we go, and we get the flashbacks and memories. But I thought, what is even more forever than trauma's forever is Jesus' resurrection?
Jeemin:And he is the Lord right now embodied, glorified with holes in his hand. He marked the bare of traumatizing events, yet not traumatized. And he's ministering to us real time
Mike:in the Holy Ghost. Sorry. Zimmin, what you just said, brother, was like, we need to, can we camp on that just for a moment?
Jeemin:Sure thing. Sure thing.
Mike:Because I think that is, that's huge. Because a lot of people would definitely say, what do you mean Jesus was definitely traumatized? Like what he went through was traumatizing. So then it begs the question on trauma event versus what's precipitated, the nuances that sort of create sort of the traumatic event. But the idea of the traumatic event with the end in mind, which Jesus clearly and then you also brought up something that at least the way that we can look at Scripture, there's not a lot of Scriptures that explicitly say this, but to your point, he's probably the only one in heaven, the intermediate state.
Mike:Is he still going to have the marks on himself? Probably based on the scriptural evidence that we have. Any thoughts on that?
Jeemin:Yeah. So did I actually say Jesus was traumatized?
Mike:No. He wasn't. No. I'm saying a lot of people would say that. So for us to say Yes.
Mike:That Jesus was not traumatized, people are like, what are you talking about? He literally was, like, gashed and torn and open flesh. How was that not traumatic?
Jeemin:I see.
Mike:But but he knew his purpose. He knew that's why he came Hebrews chapter 12 for the joy that was set before him. Right?
Jeemin:That's right.
Mike:So scripture definitely leads us gives us these breadcrumbs of yes, understanding that yes, that was a traumatic event in the sense of the nature of it, but it wasn't traumatic in the sense that the Jesus didn't feel forsaken. Ultimately, he knew why he was
Jeemin:Yes.
Mike:Yeah. So there's a lot to unpack there. A lot, man. But I think to what you said in passing is the sort of the culmination of that conversation, and that is his resurrected body. And we will share in that resurrection provided we share in his sufferings.
Jeemin:That's right. That's right.
Mike:So in one sense, the Imago Dei that is traumatized here on earth, us
Jeemin:Yes.
Mike:But our savior whose likeness and image we were being conformed into. So in one sense, are we really truly traumatized? And so it's like there's a lot there, but like but but what you're saying though, and I think this is obviously why it's such a helpful conversation to have with the resurrection because that is our hope. Yes. Yes.
Mike:Any words?
Jeemin:Yeah. So this is from Nate Brooks and his podcast with, I think, Connection Point. And he said, and I agree, there's difference between traumatic events and traumatized being traumatized. Yeah. So was Jesus' suffering traumatizing or traumatic?
Jeemin:Yes. It literally just killed him. Right? Yeah. But was he traumatized?
Jeemin:We don't think so. Yeah. And that is as we see from the Bible that Jesus himself say, in this world, you held tribulations, and he had so much tribulations and pain. But take heart, I have overcome the world, and he has overcome death. So the differentiation between traumatic events yet not traumatizing everyone, let alone not Jesus, that tells something else.
Jeemin:So in the midst of darkness, we still have the lay of light, the light and truth and the way Himself. And when you have that light Himself, again, darkness is still dark and there's a mark of darkness here and there, but it is not complete dark anymore. So with that, I believe the resurrection sheds light into the empty tomb for sure, resurrection. But even more so, the light of the resurrection of Jesus, it shines on the foot of cross. And I think traumatic events leave us somewhat alone in those darkest paths of valley of shadow death.
Jeemin:But what we see in Psalm 23 is Jesus finds us right there and walking with us. In the midst of the enemies, sometimes it's outward like persecution, internal as well, and the memories can be more like enemy to us. In the presence of those enemies, Jesus sets a table, and the table we see that's not just steak and bread or stuff, but it is literally the blood and flesh of Christ Jesus saying, Taste this as I tasted death. Yours is tasting the life because I tasted death for you. And let's walk with, walk together, and I'll walk with you in the midst of darkness.
Jeemin:That's how Jesus ministers to us in the midst of all these darkness and traumatic events, and we can be not just traumatized forever because his resurrection is even more forever and more everlasting.
Mike:Yeah. So at least grammatically, you know, traumatized past tense as if that's the final say in authority on reality through what we've experienced.
Jeemin:Yes. Yeah. Great summary.
Mike:Yeah. That that is that's for for a lot of Christians. That's that's huge. I mean, that's a big conversation. Yes.
Mike:So as you were working through this text, what would you say just in wrapping up? Because there's no way we're gonna, you know, plumb the depths of this conversation in 20. But how would you encourage those who have experienced trauma? Kind of putting it under the image of the Lord. And obviously, us being under that image, being conformed to that image, and then rising in that image.
Mike:Mhmm. Sort of those prepositions that actually have deep theological truth as the progression of how we are being sanctified. And that is that being the encouragement for the hardships or the troubles or the tribulation. Yes. Because I don't know if you would argue with that, but those are sort of synonyms for trauma, maybe temporarily speaking, like an event or an experience or whatever.
Mike:And that's where you and the Lord are working through that vertically. So that intra and inter inner dialogue that we're kind of working out in ourselves outside of the external stuff that you pointed to in Psalms 23. Yes. But setting the table, of course, as you said, eschatologically, that table is His flesh and His blood.
Jeemin:That's right. Amen. Amen. Yeah. I'm glad that you talked about this language of inter dialogues.
Jeemin:And we, as counselors, when a person comes into counseling room, they do nothing but sharing their own stories. Yeah. And trauma is a form of narrative that is particularly painful, wrong, and it is actually not fitting in the new heaven and new earth, but it finds place here. So I think because counseling is and our lives are a book of story, and to interpret our story and to bring meaning out of our stories, we need a meta story. And we know that's the Bible, a big story book, which actually defines who we are and re acclaims our experiences and re narrates our painful past.
Jeemin:So with that, I'll just briefly read two verses from Isaiah Remember 40 not the former things nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing. Now it springs forth. Do you not perceive it? And God says, I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.
Jeemin:The way I read is think about our painful past as somewhat like wilderness and desert, and we think there's no sign of life. There's no way that those stories can be used for good. But I think the resurrection of Christ, because it is part of the story, it's a culmination, and that leads us to a certain point of our not yet resurrection based on Jesus' already resurrection. And now, we are redeemed our body and soul, but if I can put it, our past can be redeemed by finding its renewed meaning in Christ. So if we carry any past that feels like wilderness and desert, there's nothing good, when God comes into the story and finds his place and says, I was there.
Jeemin:I heard it. I saw you. I know you. And when He make a way in the wilderness, people will come and dwell. When there are rivers in the desert, the vegetations and plants and animals.
Jeemin:So, this meaningless, barren past and traumatic event can be actually a source of life. And another verse from Psalm 84, it says, We went through the Valley Of Baca, that's Valley of tears, but we made that valley a spring water of life. That means that our traumatic past, although we can't relive it, we can retell, re narrate, re understand it. And that valley of tears, when we spend time there and the Lord redeems it for good of others and us, it can be a spring of water. So, that's how we see and how I find even my own painful past.
Jeemin:Lord does some wonderful works and then I am a better person in a way because of how the Lord redeemed my past and He uses my story to meet other stories and ultimately point people to the story of God. That's the history itself of redemption.
Mike:Jimin, that's really good. And I you guys didn't see it. But as he was reading from Isaiah, I'm over here welling up because it's just a beautiful reality. And I think as you were sharing that, Jimin, something that I was thinking about as I was welling up there was the reality that what seems meaningless in the moment of our stories that seems real time to us, but it's already been written and formed and shaped. Wow.
Mike:With the Lord. That's right. He becomes that oasis of meaningfulness. So the meaninglessness in our lives, in time, in his time, will become meaningful. And I think that's the beautiful reality of the resurrection that it as you were also given the vivid imagery of walking through the desert and the barrenness is that he's walked the path.
Mike:There's technically an irrigation system underneath that. There you go. And as we're trailing behind him in that, it's just the irrigation, the water wells underneath hundreds of feet below the surface begin to sprout up, and he begins to bring meaning and life to our lives. Again, going back to that redemptive Amen. Metanarrative of redemptive history that the story has already been told.
Jeemin:Amen.
Mike:It's already been done. And done meaning conquered, as you mentioned, he's overcome the world. Right. That's why, brothers and sisters, as you're listening and maybe you're in a particular season or space where you seem like you're in the valley, as you alluded to Psalm 23. And maybe wherever you are, maybe you feel like you are in the wilderness.
Mike:I would also encourage you to read Mark chapter one, where John's coming on the scene. And he's coming from the wilderness, and he's actually in the attire that represents barrenness and wilderness, locusts and honey, camel hair for a wardrobe. How cool. How many times do we feel in our lives where we go through these seasons, and we just feel like that, like we're in the wilderness. And I think the repentance and faith and life and godliness and forgiveness and all of the those are those irrigation pieces that sort of like the filtration system, if you will, of life just budding as we're
Jeemin:Man, man. You just further developed this theory. I'm gonna I'm gonna use this irrigation lingo. But hey,
Mike:but brother, it's like your thoughts. And I'm like, I would love to to read your lesson there. But anyway, I all that to say, y'all, we just want to encourage you. When Jimin and I were talking and I saw the topic for his lesson, I just wanted to bring this to the podcast because this is a this is obviously a much larger conversation. Is.
Mike:This is happening in our counseling rooms with our counselees. And this is actually a podcast that you can share with your counselees to hopefully give them some encouragement in whatever way that would be helpful. Jimin, thank you brother for being here. Thank you for spending this time with me again.
Jeemin:Thank
Mike:you. Hopefully we can keep this annual rhythm going.
Jeemin:Sure thing.
Mike:Yeah. And guys, thank you for listening.