Katabasis Part 2 - R F Kuang - Dark Fantasy Book - Dark Academia Book

The quest: Katabasis by R.F. Kuang. The result: We went ot hell and back! Dive into Katabasis by R.F. Kuang with our full-spoiler book club breakdown! Jess and Abby join the guys to continue their descent into hell to find out what Alice and Peter are up to.

Katabsis plot: Two rival PhD students descend into a hellish university campus to retrieve their abusive advisor’s soul—facing academic trials, betrayal, and dark revelations. Is this dark academia masterpiece a 7/10 triumph or a pacing misfire? We debate character arcs, logic paradoxes, and that wild revenge twist.

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction to the Book and Author
14:46 Exploring the Ending and Character Dynamics
31:08 Character Analysis: Understanding Peter's Role
43:39 Comparative Analysis: Dante's Inferno vs. Modern Hell
48:06 Cultural References and Mythological Connections
57:52 Exploring Recurring Dreams and Nightmares

Discover Side Quest: https://linktr.ee/asidequest
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Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

[Jonathan]
I wonder if R.F. Kuang took the phrase, Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn, and just decided to like, build a book around it. Because that reveal, I was like, Oh, that's not the Alice I've gotten to know in 300 pages so far.

[Jess]
Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan]
Young lady.

[Abby]
Can you imagine like, coming back into your body and it was just a pile? Yeah, she was just gonna like, piece them back together, sorta. Yeah, she wanted him to like, sign a form, like a recommendation.

I was like, how's he gonna do that? If he's just like, a pile of flesh. And she was like, I don't know, I didn't think about it, and I would figure it out later.

[Jonathan]
Thumbprint in blood, or whatever. Welcome back, SideQuesters, to Katabasis part two guest episode, with some of the lit ladies coming back to join us for this show. I like, spent 15 minutes figuring out what alliteration I was gonna use for you two.

So, that's what I settled on.

[Jess]
Great.

[Jonathan]
It was a good job. Thank you.

[Abby]
Good effort. Ladies of literature.

[Jess]
Yeah, ladies of letters.

[Jonathan]
Ladies lit club. Yeah. Lit ladies.

[Jess]
That sounds like we read Bridget Jones' diary. Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Maybe you do. I did.

[Jess]
I did. The first one I did. I was really young.

I did not. Yeah, it's not worth it. Just skip over it.

Could read Jane Austen. That might be better. Yeah.

[Jonathan]
My wife would come on the podcast if we did that. She's got some of those like, fancy versions, or whatever.

[Jess]
I think I have a fancy edition, too.

[Jonathan]
Do you?

[Jess]
Yeah. I told you, Barnes & Noble's special collection, like I brought last time.

[Jonathan]
Oh, man. This is great. All right.

So, let's get into it. We're discussing all of the book. The author, Abby.

Turns out that you're like a big fan of R.F. Kuang, right?

[Abby]
I am. I've read all of her stuff.

[Jonathan]
How did this compare?

[Abby]
It was a little more similar to Babel, or Babel, depending on if you're British or not. Because it's dark academia. But it's also her first love story that she's written.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So, it was a little bit different.

And a lot different from, I mean, Yellow Face. I don't know if you guys have read that. But it is totally different.

That one is just kind of like silly. I don't even, like nothing to do, like not fantasy at all. About this woman who steals a book, basically, and passes it off as her own.

Her like friend who died. Basically, yeah, there was this author who died. And then she happened to be there when she died.

And she stole her unpublished manuscript and wrote and published it.

[Jonathan]
But we should have done a follow-up for that one. I didn't know that that was what that one was about after Two Past Midnight. R.F. Kuang's take on Two Past Midnight. Because the story of Two Past Midnight is like this guy publishes somebody else's work.

[Jess]
But Grimes does that too in the book. He does. Yeah, so it's the recurring theme of stealing someone's work, which is an academia thing.

Yeah. Stealing work. Fair.

[Abby]
The Poppy War, her first, her trilogy that she started out with is totally different. But that's really good too.

[Jess]
So was this your favorite?

[Abby]
I think this was my favorite. It wasn't?

[Jess]
It was.

[Abby]
No, which one was your favorite? Katabasis.

[Jess]
Katabasis. Oh, really? Okay.

Because I've heard, I watched a few reviews where people who were fans said it was their least favorite, but they still loved it. Yeah, I watched two this morning.

[Jonathan]
I found a lot of dichotomy in the reviews. There was people who were, don't love this book, but I love Kuang. And it's good enough for me to be fangirling out on the book too.

I hate this book. This is the worst book ever. I don't understand what's going on.

And too repetitive. Editor sucks. Kuang swung and missed.

[Jess]
Gnagactic.

[Jonathan]
So it was very opposite. And I looked at content creators similar to us, and some of them were with bigger followings. So I didn't just look like, hey, somebody's blog or some random person's YouTube channel.

I tried to find established book reviewers, book talk, YouTube book folks. And the bigger channels that I found, I found four reviews. Two were very negative.

And two were, one was very positive. And one was like, I like Kuang, not her best work, but this is good enough for me to enjoy. I started out hating it.

And well, I started out liking it, then went right into hating it. And then by the end of the book, I was like, no, this is okay. I can deal with it.

And then as we talked through the first episode, I was like, you know what? As I'm talking through this and bouncing ideas back and forth off of Jonathan, reading that super summary cliff notes thing I sent you, that kind of dipped, dived into it a little bit more. And I was like, you know what?

This is not a bad book at all. So I came around.

[Jess]
I came around. I think it, I'd say it's a pretty good book. This is not a head full of ghosts.

This is the opposite of a head full of ghosts. Especially with the references, there's constant references. And that is a issue some people took, that they thought it was pretentious.

They said a bunch of words.

[Jonathan]
Well, it's academia. I don't know.

[Jess]
Yeah, I know. And she does weave it in appropriately.

[Jonathan]
Right.

[Jess]
And it made sense. And it wasn't too like, it wasn't like she went off and like over explained things that we didn't understand. She made it very like digestible.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Jess]
It was awesome. I like that a lot. And I also like Dante's Inferno.

So I also like this. I like this. I was actually surprised.

You gotta be a pretty good writer to write something about Dante's Inferno. You take inspiration from it, right? Your version of it.

And it'd be good.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Jess]
That's a pretty good book. Where like Head Full of Ghosts, that was just a mess.

[Jonathan]
Similar to Slava and Jess. The reason Slava and I picked this book is we looked at the summary. And we were like, oh, this story sounds great.

I can't wait to read this. It came out very excited. And then we had this like, we started high.

And we're like, okay, I'm not loving it. And then when we were digesting it in the last episode, we were both like, you know, I think that was actually better than the reading experience as we were reflecting on it. Which is, I think that's a first.

Right, Slava? Like, I don't think we've ever had that where we, oftentimes when we're like, oh, we don't like a book, we don't like a book. And there's no, the discussing it doesn't help.

But in this case, we were digesting it. We're like, actually, I think I do like it more than I thought I did while I was reading it. The issue was, I believe that our expectations were higher than the book was just able to deliver for the flavors that we like.

Yeah. And I can tell you exactly the point where it went down for me. When Peter wakes up next to, oh gosh, main character's name.

Alice, thank you.

[Jess]
Alice. Alice.

[Jonathan]
Slava's like, I skimmed the book. I just read all the Peter parts. No, when Alice and Peter wake up, and he has a morning erection.

And their reactions to that, their reactions to that just did not seem like what grown people, despite their little romantic or lack thereof history, what grown people in an academic setting, post-graduates would react. I'm like, this sounds, yeah, this sounds like young adults. And I think that soured it for me.

And I just couldn't let go of that interaction. I'm like, this is so immature to the point where I can't believe it. I wasn't believable for me that these people would react this way.

And that kind of soured it. But by the end of the book, I was like, meh, it's all right. I'm glad I read it.

We're going to talk about it and all the stuff that we did in the episode one of this book. But again, to come full circle, after I had a chance to talk about it, think about it, despite that being off to me, the rest of the book and the characters themselves, irrespective of what I think post-graduates should act like in other situations, it turned out to be a pretty decent book. I came around pretty quickly.

Aren't we all? All over again, middle school all over again.

[Abby]
They did react really, now that you mention it, that was a very weird reaction for 25 years.

[Jonathan]
For both, and people who supposedly like each other, know each other, understand male autonomy and biology and how that stuff actually happens.

[Jess]
I do have an argument, though, for this. There is such an emphasis on forgetting the body, embracing the mind. I wonder if it was purposeful.

[Jonathan]
That could be it. No, that's actually a valid point.

[Jess]
Could it just be a boner scene? But they said, what is it? Grimes said, flesh is filth.

[Jonathan]
I'm a middle schooler. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jess]
Or something. And there's a constant thing. Because one of the controversial things they said in a bunch of reviews was too much eating disorder.

And I don't even view it as that eating disorder behavior, which was in the summary that you guys sent me. But I thought it was more of escaping the body to transcend to become the mind. Because they were all like, oh, I don't need to eat.

I'm just this academic slaving away at my craft, suffering for my craft. And I thought they viewed sexuality that way. I think that's why.

I just think it's why they were kind of in this mindset of the body wasn't talked about. Which I kind of feel like. I don't know if that ties into the shades losing a corporeal form.

I don't know. I gave that some thought this morning. That was a very last minute thought.

But I thought about the boner scene. Because who hasn't been thinking about that? And I was like, well, me.

[Jonathan]
I mean, I wasn't.

[Jess]
It's all I've been thinking about.

[Jonathan]
I'm an adult. I didn't get stuck there, guys.

[Jess]
Me and Slava. It was just like that boner scene.

[Jonathan]
Slava, I'm not surprised about. So.

[Jess]
Me? I always think about the most inappropriate version of anything.

[Jonathan]
That's wild.

[Jess]
That and we got it. Eventually, we have to address the romance. I don't know if we're ready for that right now.

But the romance. How you think the romance was done. And if it bothered you.

Because some people, that's another criticism.

[Jonathan]
Let's get into that in just one second. So finishing up a thought that I had to explain to Abby. A little bit about the last episode that Slava and I had.

The biggest contention, I'd say. Not even gripe. Just like the resistance I had in loving the story more was.

And I think Slava mentioned this a little bit. Is the idea that graduate student level people. It felt like the mind of Alice felt like an undergrad student.

Who's experiencing the world for the first time. But she was in a graduate program. And that was the disconnect.

I think I even said this in the last episode. Where I'm like. If they literally were just in undergrad.

This book would have been flawless. Because I'm like. Oh, this person's young.

They haven't experienced the world very much. But it's that 25, mid-20s, late-20s. Where I'm like.

I feel like people should have had some experiences with the world a little bit. Up to this point. That's the phrase that I want to use.

And so that was my biggest contention. Is there felt like a dichotomy to me. Where it's like.

I'm in graduates program. There's a lot of pressure. It's like okay.

All believable. But then her like mindset felt like an Amish girl. Who just hit the real world for the first time.

And I was like. I don't understand this.

[Abby]
That's a good point. She was very Amish.

[Jonathan]
She just felt like protected from the world. And so I was just like. And that's the thing.

It's like not a bad story. The concept was great. The thing that we like got hung up on.

How does someone get to a graduate level academic program. And not experience some of the like. Oppressions.

The sexual advances from people in the real world. And things like that. That she experienced.

Only in graduate school apparently. Beforehand. I mean.

Except that she.

[Slava]
Well I got. That's just in my mind. That's the narrative that's taking place.

[Jonathan]
Throw that at you. I know a guy. We used to be friends in high school.

We lost touch at this point. But he was very very smart. Book smart.

He could absorb information well. Math. Science.

Just. It comes in here. Comes out on this test.

Flawless. But he could not. Talk to people.

Girls. Boys. Irrelevant.

Romance. Platonic. He was so awkward.

Just. It was crippling. How awkward he was.

Bad boner moment. Middle school. Took it away from him.

Maybe. But how do I condense this into. You know.

30 seconds. Instead of 20 minute story. Just make me the bad guy here.

He was just awkward. He couldn't interact. And because of those things.

Because of the level of awkwardness. That's the word I'm going to use here. He is.

To this day. Unable to function in society. He lives in a halfway house.

For people with disorders. And he went off the rails. About.

I want to say. If I was married at 25. And he's a year older than me.

Somewhere around just 23, 24. He went off the rails and did some. Just horrible stuff.

And he had to be put into an institution. And he stayed there for. About five or six years.

And then he got moved into a halfway house. Where he still lives. He still lives in this.

Like. I don't know what else to call it. Just a halfway house for guys.

With problems. Who can't live. You know.

In the real world. And they help him. And I've talked to him over the years.

Here and there. When he's called. And he seems okay.

He is happy where he is. He has a structured life. He has meals.

He has therapy. But in the real world. Outside the walls of that house.

Falls apart instantly. So. There are people like that.

And that's not a one-to-one comparison. That's not a one-to-one comparison. Who knows.

[Abby]
Because I do have like. I know a lot of people who are super smart. And then they just have absolutely no common sense.

So. Maybe they were just so smart. That they had no just.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Abby]
Awareness of anything else.

[Jess]
I would think also the structure. That school academic setting provides. People can flourish in.

And then without that structure. Then it dissolves. Because like I do.

I was always someone who did really well in the classroom. But left to my own devices. I don't do well.

In the real world.

[Jonathan]
So external structure helps.

[Jess]
Yeah. I need like someone to tell me what to do. Sit down.

Take this test. And I'm fine. But I can perform like that.

I can't perform on my own.

[Jonathan]
Hey. Fair enough.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
That was a point of contention for me.

[Jess]
I'm kind of immature like Alice. I'm not as awkward. I hope.

[Jonathan]
I don't think so. But overall. I think what we would we give it like a seven.

[Jess]
We brought it up.

[Jonathan]
Didn't we say Slava? Out of ten. I brought it up to six and a half.

Seven out of ten. At first when I. At the boner got me to a three.

From a you know. I started out at a five. I'm like okay.

This is the middle of the road. I have high expectations. Just like you said.

Johner. Johner. Jonathan.

And. Is that how you say John and boner?

[Slava]
It's in Russian.

[Jonathan]
Johner. And. Thanks.

Yeah. Okay. It was going well for a while.

Went down. And we're we're here now. And we're liking the book.

Fair enough. All right Jess. Let's circle back to the romance part that you wanted to bring us.

Take us. Take us there.

[Jess]
Some people were very disappointed. On the internet. See me.

I don't like a lot of romance. Just like I don't like fantasy. I don't like.

[Jonathan]
Wow. All right.

[Jess]
That's another topic. I don't like a lot of romance in my book. So I thought it was like a good amount.

Although the end was a little rushed. Like they seem like they fell in love in the last minute. Where like they did kind of breadcrumb it.

But some people. I guess it was marketed as an enemy. What is it?

I heard someone say.

[Jonathan]
Enemies become lovers.

[Jess]
Yes. People were very disappointed. And how it panned out.

I just wanted your guys' opinions. I was like. It's enough romance for me.

Morning wood. And then they hold hands.

[Jonathan]
This is it. We've made it 140 something episodes. And now we get a boner episode.

This is great.

[Abby]
My mom. My mom told me to send the link to her. And now she's gonna be like.

What are you people talking about?

[Jess]
You're not doing anything. It's all us. You're it.

[Jonathan]
Hey mom. Sometimes I get on the internet and talk about boners.

[Jess]
Are people talking about boners too? It's like a respectful kind of way.

[Jonathan]
You're gonna wonder what kind of friends you've made on the internet. These are the people that I told you not to talk to on the internet.

[Abby]
No, she's a little crazy herself. So yeah. Shout out to Monica.

[Jonathan]
Hey Monica. We'll get her to read a book too. And we'll bring her on.

Yeah. She probably would agree. That's not a joke.

The Casey and Jonathan. Not Casey and Jonathan. I don't know why Jonathan's in my mind this morning.

But Casey and JT. The two other guys who've come on the fantasy podcast and fantasy episodes. And the cradle episodes.

Their dad really loves Stephen King. So he's invited himself and we're happy that he did it. He's invited himself too.

Hey, I want to read Pet Sematary and talk it with you guys. So parents are welcome. The more the merrier.

One of the concepts that we have. Which is the prime concept I should say. Is this is a book club.

We get together and talk like this. It's informal. So if we get other guests.

And friends of guests and parents of guests. More the merrier. So if you want to pressure anyone to read a book.

That's how I got Slava to join this show. As well as like pretty much all the guests that I brought on. Oh it's your show.

I'm just like hey read this series of 12 books. Yeah. You didn't know that?

I didn't tell you that. Yeah I missed that. You did sign the paperwork.

In the contract. And the fine print.

[Jess]
But the romance. I say I'm a guest star. I always tell people I'm a guest star on a podcast.

Not a guest. I'm a guest star. And then there'll be another guest star tomorrow.

There's two guest stars on the episode I'm going to be on.

[Jonathan]
Living the star life Jess. So does anyone. Because I don't.

Does anyone have a deep understanding of King Yama and his mythos at all?

[Jess]
No.

[Jonathan]
Okay.

[Jess]
I don't think they gave a bunch. Well they didn't. Criticism.

You're like a little bit more. Like you don't like a little bit more. I like a little bit more of Grimes.

[Jonathan]
Quoting me all the time.

[Jess]
I do. Almost every episode I bring up that.

[Jonathan]
Oh no.

[Jess]
Lord Yama. Is it Yama? Or Yama?

Yama. Like him. A little bit more of him.

Although he was kind of perfect in his scene. In his scene. Grimes.

I would have liked way more Grimes. He's such a sadistic f***. Which I can say.

John Gratt. We're gonna go through all the characters. I like John Grattis.

If I'm saying that right. He's funny. Because he says my favorite line in the book.

Which I don't know if I can say that. Don't be a c*** Alice.

[Jonathan]
That's probably the slowest favorite line too.

[Abby]
Yeah. It's not every day that you get a c-word.

[Jonathan]
And Americans in our culture. The c-word is such. It's awful.

But really. You know. If you take off the cultural sentiments around that word.

Yeah it's still a curse word. But if you take off the cultural sentiments around that word. It is such a nice word.

Because you can call anybody that. England it means something particular. It's like douchebag times a thousand.

I still like. I'm just gonna like. Open up my ignorance to everybody here.

I've heard that word. And I'm like. And I know what it means.

But I'm just like. Why are you insulted? Like.

Like. Cool. They used a word on you.

Maybe sticks and stones break your bones. But words can never hurt me. Stuck into me.

But like. I'm like. I hear people insult people like that.

I'm like. Okay.

[Jess]
I think it was so taboo. I think at least in American culture.

[Jonathan]
It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe.

[Abby]
I don't know.

[Jess]
My mom got used to me saying it.

[Abby]
I think it's because it's something nobody says.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Abby]
I have a friend that says it all the time.

[Jonathan]
So do I. He's on the show. Guilty as charged.

[Jess]
The more you hear it. The less it seems so.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. Everybody.

[Jess]
Taboo.

[Jonathan]
On a count of four. Everybody say it. No, I'm kidding.

[Jess]
But it'll lose its power. It'll lose its power. Because when you're really angry.

You break out the C word. Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Do you guys ever hear that story of like. I think it was like an ethics professor or something like that. Or philosophy.

And he went into the front of his class on day one. And he like told them. Hey, we're going to like talk about words.

And we're going to start with the N word. And then he just kept saying it. And first people were angry.

And then like the 57th time he said it. They were like. Oh.

Okay. And he was just making the exact point that you brought up Abby. Where it's like.

If you overuse a word. You can kind of just like.

[Slava]
So he reclaimed the word.

[Jonathan]
Is the word that I want to say.

[Jess]
Yeah. Or kill its power.

[Jonathan]
I didn't say that. But if you clip this for a short. And say that I did say that.

Yeah. I think we'll get more viewers.

[Jess]
A different kind of.

[Jonathan]
Maybe we don't want those views.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Oh, we are off the rails here.

[Jess]
Off the rails here.

[Jonathan]
I'm going to bring us back.

[Jess]
That's what the side quest is for.

[Jonathan]
That's true. So we were talking about the romance in the book. Jess, you said that the internet didn't like it.

Enemies become lovers.

[Jess]
And I'm okay with it.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Jess]
I like the light romance. Like let's not get too.

[Jonathan]
Holding hands is enough for you.

[Abby]
I liked the light romance. I'm a. I try to avoid.

Well, now I've just been like. Since I started grad school. I've just been only reading silly Victorian romance.

So now I'm.

[Jess]
There you go.

[Abby]
Weird. Weird phase of my life. But I love a romance.

And I thought it was like tasteful. But I do think at the end. It seemed kind of.

Yeah, it seemed rushed. And like kind of silly. I guess.

And it was just like. Oh, okay. Like it was leading up to it.

And then she was like, I'm going to save your life. And we're going to be together forever. And look forward to our lives together outside of hell.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Abby]
And I was like, this is kind of.

[Jess]
Yeah. She changed her whole mindset really fast at the end. Yeah.

Like all of a sudden the little things matter. Like I was like that. It was a really big jump.

Because she was like. Still valorizing, you know, grimes up until like a two.

[Abby]
She was. Until she like. I don't.

He said something. I haven't. I read it a long time ago.

But he said something. And then she was like, oh, you are an asshole.

[Jess]
Yeah. And I was like this whole. This whole thing was about this.

She has a scar from him. She was his human test subject. And that's what got her.

I was like, oh, you are a dick.

[Jonathan]
And she was trying to, you know, for personal reasons. Bring him back to a half formed corpse.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
And like reattach his soul to this mangled body. Yeah.

[Jess]
Which I like.

[Jonathan]
For her own pleasure.

[Jess]
But I like that as a twist. Because at first. Because at first, the reason why I hated Alice is she comes off as a type.

A. Cutthroat bitch. Willing to do anything for academia.

Which she says she'd give up her firstborn. She'd sever a limb. She gave like two other examples of extreme things she would do.

And it's all a lie. She's lying to herself the whole time. And that's what I wrote in my drunken notes last night.

And it's. Well, it's a lie because she wouldn't have sex with Grimes. She's not willing to do everything for academia.

She clearly is not. Because she didn't want to. And I feel bad for her somewhat.

Because then he retaliated against her. Which happens like in the workplace. In real life.

And then it happens. Because yeah, that's why I found it relatable.

[Jonathan]
I found the romance just enough too. Despite my previous comments about their reactions to each other. Whether it was that scene or other scenes.

I found it just enough. I have read romance adjacent books. Which I think overdid it.

Which the focus of the book was so much on the romance part of it. Physical and emotional and all that stuff. And I'm like, okay.

I trudged through it and it's fine. But I found it just enough. But the comment on the end.

I'm kind of split. I agree with you. It seemed a little rushed.

Maybe 10 more pages of the book would have flushed that out. Would have been better. But I think where it still works.

Is they just got out of hell. They both realized that they do really like each other. And they were pitted against each other by Grimes.

And they're like, all right. Well, I guess we're starting over, right? They both already have a history.

So starting over means something different than for somebody. Who had a contentious rivalry. Or a contentious romance in the midst of that rivalry.

And then everything fell apart. And went to hell in a handbasket. Pun intended.

And then they had to start over. It seemed that they were going towards each other. His Crohn's disease forced him to miss a date.

Her ambition. His ambition kind of drew them apart. And they're starting over at a beginning point of their romance.

Does that make sense? Where they don't have a lot to unpack. A lot of baggage to sift through.

[Jess]
They still have to fall in love. Because that's the one thing. It's like, I didn't buy that they fell in love.

[Jonathan]
I think they just chose to re-engage romantically.

[Jess]
Yeah, that's probably a good one. They fell in love. Yeah.

[Jonathan]
The thing that stood out. Or the moment that I thought we were talking about. Is when she's in front of King Yama.

And she basically gets the request to bring him back-ish. But before that, she gets this dialogue with Grimes. And she has to, to Jess's point, basically admit to herself.

I don't actually want this. Because he's like, no, we can stay down here. We can test.

We can do this. Save the diadem. Or whatever it was called.

[Jess]
What was it?

[Jonathan]
What was it called?

[Jess]
Dimethia? The Dimethia?

[Jonathan]
Dimethia. Dilithia.

[Jess]
Dilithia.

[Jonathan]
This is why you should never give me a pop quiz on these books. But she has to make- Thank you. She has to come to terms with that.

And so me, the progression of like, it was rushed per se. But if you look at the scope of the whole book, I don't think it was. Because it's like, I'll do anything for academia.

Actually, I'm not willing to do that. Actually, now I'm confronted with Grimes again. I have to admit to myself that I'm gonna, like, I need to make the decision to change.

She gets to reverse Peter's, you know, moment. And I want to just put a pin in this real quick. I want to go back to Peter's death.

Because I feel like that was, like, they did Peter dirty. Anyway, we'll come back. Somebody bring that book up in a minute.

But she, I think, like, the rushing afterward is okay. Because we had, you know, whatever, 400 pages. Yeah, 400 pages before that of, like, this journey that she took to be honest with herself.

To quote Jess. So I was okay with it. Fair enough.

We're liking the book more and more. As a second conversation with two other people. Yeah.

It's like chewing on it.

[Jess]
There was a lull.

[Jonathan]
When was the lull for you, Jess?

[Jess]
I feel like in the courts of hell that I don't remember as well. And I can't even tell you which ones they were. They were, like, in the desert for a long time.

I feel like they were in the desert forever.

[Jonathan]
That middle part that I couldn't quote to you right now? That's the part that was boring.

[Jess]
I can't prove it.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, chapters 10 to 27. Don't remember them at all.

[Abby]
Was it, like, after? Was it desire? Was it, like, after that?

After that, yeah. Yeah. I do.

I know what you mean. Because now I'm like, what? What did happen after?

[Jess]
Yeah, I know.

[Abby]
That's what I do in my notes.

[Jonathan]
I'm like, what happened in this one? Oh, they found Elsbeth.

[Abby]
Yeah, I like Elsbeth. I like her a lot. Yeah, but I couldn't tell you what the other.

[Jonathan]
Abby, did you know that Elsbeth is, like, basically an ode to Pandora's box? Pandora?

[Abby]
No. I didn't know that.

[Jonathan]
Just look it up. I don't remember. I just looked through my notes again.

[Jess]
I just remember the butterflies were symbolic. I remember that.

[Abby]
Yeah, she burst into butterflies. Which sounds like something else that somebody else did. Was it Pandora?

I don't know if this changes anybody's perspective or anything. But apparently, Peter was based on R.F. Kuang's husband.

[Jonathan]
Oh.

[Abby]
And so I'm almost like.

[Jonathan]
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Abby]
Current husband or ex-husband?

[Jonathan]
Okay.

[Abby]
Current husband.

[Jonathan]
Did they have a weird boner moment?

[Abby]
Is that like. So he read it and he was like, oh, this is so endearing. The way that she describes how lanky he is and stuff.

And I was like, that's kind of a weird thing. Because I feel like she does describe it like.

[Jonathan]
Everyone's relationship is their own, I guess.

[Abby]
It's true. But yeah. So if there's anything you don't like about Peter, that's probably her husband.

I like Peter.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. I like her a lot. See, that's funny.

Because when I first met my wife, she liked me eventually. And we first. Well, let me back up.

I have to set the context. At first, we didn't like each other. Like romantically, we were fine with each other as friends.

And we were set up by a couple we know. And they kept pushing us to, you know, get to know each other better. And we're like, fine, whatever.

Leave us alone. We're just here with you guys. Stop making it weird.

But eventually, we started to like each other and like each other a lot. We've been married for 19 years almost. So her friends did not like me for the reasons that she liked me.

Because I was blunt. I didn't have a filter. And I said what I thought.

Now, I wasn't just a complete cunt about it. But I was very forceful with my opinion sometimes. And sometimes I could have been a jerk.

Freely admit. I've matured since then. But the things that she liked about me, they hated me.

They're like, he's rude. He's abrasive. He's obnoxious.

But the two people that said that got chewed out by me for being jerks to her. So take from that what you will. And then she wrote a book about you.

And you felt endeared because she described you as lanky. My comment is...

[Abby]
I know. I was like, how does this relate?

[Jonathan]
Am I waiting for this? He's like, I actually... So what Juan likes about her husband, whether the lankiness or whatever it is, it's probably different than what we hate about Peter, right?

Or maybe she used it specifically because she knew these quirks would probably rub others the wrong way. And she wanted Peter to serve a purpose in her plot. So she wrote that or amplified his idiosyncrasies, whatever that is.

But to your point, Abby, which I thought was pretty cool, was like, maybe she wrote him a particular way for us not to like him. Or that's the reason we don't like him. But maybe those are the very reasons that are endearing to her about her Peter.

Yeah. He wasn't upset that she did him dirty with his death? Apparently not.

[Abby]
I have no idea. He loved it. Because that happened like too quickly.

[Jonathan]
You wanted to suffer more.

[Abby]
I felt like...

[Jonathan]
More screaming, more pain. Yeah. It should have just been like a longer moment.

Like... No?

[Jess]
Is that just me? No, it was kind of rushed. A lot of things are rushed.

[Jonathan]
Which part of it was too short? His death or her getting over it?

[Jess]
Oh, her getting over it. I didn't even think about that. She didn't kind of move on real fast.

[Jonathan]
A loose term.

[Jess]
I know she is in hell, so she does have to kind of carry on.

[Jonathan]
Well, the impending chalk creatures were like apparently upon them. And he puts her in the one pentagram that like, you know, frees her from logic because of the days. And like, you know, your hanging is coming in seven days.

So it must be whatever day's thing. I can't remember the name of the logic statement, but...

[Abby]
I would never be able to understand that.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. But then like, she gets zapped away. And then instantly he's like being mauled by these creatures.

But they weren't there. I didn't have the impending tension of their... Like the jaws, right?

Like they're getting closer. And he's like, I gotta finish the pentagram. Just one of us can get saved.

It was just like, hey, we're gonna argue about the pentagram. I'm gonna zap you. I'm being mauled.

[Jess]
Yeah, no tension. I think they were like, oh, they're coming.

[Jonathan]
They did say it, but I didn't feel the tension of it.

[Abby]
Okay.

[Jonathan]
Look, I'm willing to be wrong.

[Jess]
Did you guys feel the tension of that moment? Nope. I like my tension in the film.

[Abby]
Yeah, now that I think about it, it was kind of just like the... Like, oh, he died.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, and I was like, I thought he was supposed to be the love interest. And then I was like, oh, I guess we're over Peter. That's why I think that she did him dirty.

I mean, she brought him back, so...

[Jess]
You guys didn't find it predictable, though? Like, I knew she was getting him back. Oh, I knew she was gonna get him back.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Jess]
I don't read enough romance stories.

[Jonathan]
I thought she might just live her life.

[Abby]
That was gonna be the resolution. Yeah, I knew it was romance. I was like, oh, they have to get back together.

And I would have been sad if she did, so...

[Jonathan]
I didn't predict that she would bring him back.

[Abby]
Fair, fair.

[Jonathan]
I didn't predict that she would bring him back, but I did predict that he would come back somehow.

[Abby]
That he'd come back. Or like, he'd survive somehow or something.

[Jonathan]
I thought he survived. I was like, oh, he got mauled, but that happened too quickly, so... I'm not sure he's dead?

[Abby]
Yeah, I kind of thought that too, yeah. Was it the Kripke's themselves that got him, or was it the Chalk Monsters?

[Jonathan]
I thought it was the Chalk Monsters. Aren't those the same thing?

[Abby]
The two magicians and their son.

[Jonathan]
Okay, in my mind, the Kripke's and the Chalk people, Chalk Monsters, are the same entities.

[Abby]
They made the Chalk Monsters.

[Jonathan]
Yep. I know how to read. My reading comprehension's about average or slightly below.

Abby, you were about to ask a question a minute ago, I think.

[Abby]
Was I?

[Jonathan]
Maybe, I thought so. If not, Slava, take it away.

[Abby]
Go, Slava.

[Jonathan]
All right, does anybody have favorite moments? Despite what you felt, on whatever the spectrum was, and there's like four people on the spectrum for this episode, whatever you were when reading it, liking it, hating it, when you're getting to like it a little bit more, any favorite moments that stand out?

[Abby]
I have so many highlighted quotes, too.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, we'll bring quote, yeah.

[Abby]
See if we can talk about at some point. But I think what I, when I think about it with the Kripke's at the end, when she like kills them and just like the whole idea of them like killing themselves to go to hell to be the people that come back and they like, I guess, killed their son, too. Like these people were insane.

And that was like really intriguing to me. Oh, that's why I love them. Yeah, so they were really interesting.

And then the fact that like they, like the dad died, I guess. And so the mom and the son just like walk straight into the leafy. Like, I'm kind of curious about like why you think they did that.

Like, were they just like, okay, I'm like, we can't do this on our own. Or like, we're sick of trying. We're tired.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, I wonder if they were just resigned, right, to maybe the point you're making, Abby, where they're like, all right, maybe we've been beaten for the first time. And that was such a traumatic, if I may be so bold, you know, think for them. And they're like, you know what?

That's it. If this little girl, you know, in their mind can beat them, then we're packing up. Maybe.

I'm pure speculation on my part. I would tie it to the city of Dis, where people are like, I'm literally so over hell. They just throw themselves at Cerberus.

They throw themselves. And so I'm thinking they've been here for what, a couple millennia or something, or hundreds of years, centuries. And they're just like, you know what?

We don't have to do this. We can just dissolve into the ether. That's the way that I was thinking of it, where, you know, these entities have been down here for so long that they're like, what am I even doing?

And so they had a moment of clarity when they were fighting her, because they were acting of instinct. And then they're like, oh, we could just die. I guess I'll just die.

[Abby]
You could just forget everything. Yeah. When you're talking about Cerberus, that was one of my quotes that I highlighted.

And Alice is like, why are they just throwing themselves at Cerberus? And Grata said, because it's interesting. Pain is interesting.

And you can bear anything as long as it's interesting. And I was like, that's very, that's a good quote.

[Jonathan]
I think for me, one of the things that stood out was the beginning. After Alice and Peter get to hell, and they are bombarded by this new information about hell, and hell is not what they imagined it to be, or not what some of the ancient books said it would look like. And they begin figuring out what hell is.

And then a few chapters later, maybe pages later, they start looking at the maps of what hell could be and how to get to Grimes. Those moments, I enjoyed a lot. And the first one was right there, the one I described.

And that stood out to me from the beginning as a favorite one. And when I read that moment, I was like, oh, I'm going to love this book. And then throughout trudging through some parts and getting to the end of it, that moment still stood out to me as a favorite.

That's the moment I remember most or remember well about the whole story. I liked Gratas being this kind of mysterious guide who comes into the story and then leaves the story. And we have basically no information about him.

I was waiting. I was like, oh, she's going to reveal something at some point. Nope.

[Abby]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Like you have a backstory. Yeah.

[Abby]
Who is this guy going to be like a surprise? Just a bad.

[Jonathan]
I was waiting for a surprise.

[Abby]
Or I was like, what if he was Grimes? And he had like, I thought that for a minute. I thought, yeah, that'd have been a cool twist.

[Jonathan]
Once we learned he'd been there for a very long time and he'd met X number of sojourners. I was like, oh, he's probably not Grimes.

[Abby]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Been here too long. He helped build this. So he's been here a minute.

Jess, what about you? Favorite or least favorite moments?

[Jess]
Least favorite. Boner. I'm sorry.

Now I just like threw myself off. What was my favorite? I'll say, I don't know about favorite moments, but the one that stuck out to me because Alice was acting like it was so horrible, the things they were saying that the people they didn't want to reincarnate, they could come back as would be not as good as being a magician.

But if you think about it, like in the real world, think about all the things you can be reincarnated as, your chances of having the life, like the nice lives that we have just from where we were born, where I'm going to assume a lot about all three of us, four of us, myself. I'm not assuming. But like they were right to fear reincarnation because you can end up in so many worse shitty positions.

That stuck out to me, but not a favorite moment. I don't know what my favorite moment would be in the book. I did love Peter's backstory when we finally find out why he's the erratic genius.

Because I always, I felt like I liked Peter from the beginning and I gave him the benefit of the doubt that there was because he missed the date with Alice. And I gave him the benefit of the doubt that there's something else going on with this guy. And I love the Crones, the devastating story.

And I know someone with Crones. So I did like the whole backstory they gave him because it's very, it's very sympathetic towards him. And then how Grimes, you know, treated him.

It wasn't like a, it wasn't a good feel moment.

[Jonathan]
So Peter was relatable for you?

[Jess]
Yeah. Well, I do like Alice, but also Alice's anger. And then her, I guess when finding out that she, how, what she really wanted to do with Grimes, that would probably have been my, maybe my favorite moment.

Because you thought she was just going to bring him back. So she'd get back on the tenure track or whatever. And then it's like, no, she wanted him to do her bidding and make, you know, put, make him weak the way she felt weak.

Yeah.

[Abby]
That was a good, a good surprising moment.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. She was different than we thought. I wonder if, if R.F. Kwong took the phrase, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and just decided to like build a book around it. Because that reveal, I was like, oh, that's, that's not the Alice I've gotten to know in 300 pages so far.

[Jess]
Yeah. Yeah. God, there's a little more there.

[Jonathan]
Young lady.

[Jess]
It made her likable. Her, um, kind of doing something kind of, um, well, yeah, cause she was so boring. And just this pile of, pile of skin.

[Abby]
And yeah, can you imagine like coming back into your body and it was just a pile of. Yeah. She was just like piece them back together, sorta.

Yeah. I was like, and she like wanted him to sign like the, yeah, she wanted him to like sign a form, like a recommendation. I was like, how's he going to do that?

If he's just like a pile of flesh. And she was like, I don't know. I didn't think about it and I would figure it out later.

Yeah. Okay.

[Jonathan]
Some print in blood or whatever magic.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
I love a good revenge story and I like characters who have been wronged to get a chance to, uh, exact revenge on their abuser or whatever it's for them to get their comeuppance. We're currently reading a book called Vitalarium by Nicholas Casbaro, who we're going to have on the show, by the way, and he interviewed the author and then have him on the guest episode like this. Oh, cool.

There's a moment in the book where something horrible happens to the main character when he was a child and he has to grow in the year that he's spending in this place. I'm not going to spoil it on this episode, but he has to grow in this place he finds himself in, and then he gets a chance to exact revenge on his bully. And it is so satisfying.

It may be just me, but that's why I love Quentin Tarantino's revenge flicks. It is just so satisfying. I was going to bring it up.

And he's been connected to this author, Casbaro. He's been compared to Quentin Tarantino. So Isaac Isimov meets Quentin Tarantino is how this book is described and it's on point and I love it.

So again, to bring it back to the point, that's probably a second or third favorite moment for me when I find out that Alice is not just, you know, pining for tenure. She's actually here to get tenure, but also get grimes. I got two things.

I want to take a quick side quest and then I want to, Jess, I want you to tell us about Dante's Inferno because I've never read it.

[Jess]
I haven't read it in a long time though.

[Jonathan]
Well, do your best.

[Abby]
I've read it. I have, but not also not for a long time.

[Jess]
All right.

[Jonathan]
Well, then we'll just like, we'll give you synopses.

[Jess]
The thing I remember is the lepers. The two parallels that I remember. Yeah, I know.

And it also is mentioned in the summary that jogged my memory because it didn't come to me easily.

[Abby]
The final circle is like Satan chewing on Brutus from who betrayed Caesar and Judas.

[Jonathan]
That seems like the pinnacle of, you know, all humanity.

[Jess]
I would say his hell, Dante's Inferno's hell is more hell like we're, like we're, we're the hell is the campus. So one thing is I feel like hell should be a little bit scarier and it is not in the book at all. It just seems a little too much like what they were going through during life.

A little monotonous.

[Jonathan]
That's a good point.

[Jess]
Yeah. So we're Dante's Inferno is at least. I, what I remember about Dante's Inferno is like the first circle of hell is all his friends.

Like all, all his like philosopher friends that they, they were good people, but they just didn't, you know, accept Christ. I think, I think that's what it was.

[Abby]
I really don't remember. Was there one where they were like, I mean, yeah, they're like continuously burning in one of the circles. Or, and then there was like a water one.

I don't know.

[Jess]
Yeah, no, that's how I feel. About my memories. Pretty sketchy.

[Jonathan]
Well, I want to get it on the list because I wanted to kind of do not a comparison, but like a, a relatability between the two of like, what did, what do we think that she pulled from it? Because I've never read it. It's been on my like TBR, right?

My to be read list for too long. And so I think it'd be interesting to do that because correct me if anybody knows differently, but that's like the first book about, about hell that like took off. Right.

Like there was no, I don't know of a book before that.

[Jess]
I think, yeah, no, I think you're right. That was about, about a journey to hell. Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. Barring like mythos and Hades.

[Slava]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
But the book is old as hell because it was published in, I think the 1300s. So is that close enough to when hell was created Slava for you?

[Abby]
Yeah. Close enough.

[Jonathan]
Close enough.

[Abby]
I did. So in Dante's Inferno, there is his guide is Virgil. Is that?

And so Gratis did remind me very much of Virgil in Dante's Inferno. So that was one connection that I made, but he was less helpful. I think.

[Jess]
It's just like Virgil was where you didn't know who John Gratis was a fake name. So she didn't really know anything about Virgil.

[Abby]
Yeah.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Parallel universes. Surprise. Kelsey, please.

Yes. I do wonder if like other people, because this hell felt very academic. And it's like, well, if someone else went to hell, are they going to just experience the monotony of their life?

And so.

[Abby]
Yeah. So it was based on like, it changed based on who they were. But then that's kind of confusing because I'm like, are all these people academics?

And then there's a separate hell for other people doing something else. And then there's like a separate one. Or does it just show up differently?

[Jonathan]
Yeah, it's all the same souls, but they like filter differently because it's your narrative going through it. And so the same quantity of people are in hell, but everyone's experiencing it in like a VR, AR, like reality, their own unique reality. And so they're filling in the NPC that would be equivalent for whatever they did.

It gets complicated. I don't know. I did wonder that though.

I was like, are there multiple hells? Is that what we're doing now? Multi-hell?

Maybe.

[Jess]
Multi-hell. Hell can't be a campus for everybody. It wouldn't make any sense.

[Jonathan]
That's true. Especially if you're illiterate. Then you're like, well, I don't know what I'm doing here.

[Jess]
Or if you're like a, you know. I can't write a dissertation.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, that's just the trick of it. They just scribble and then they turn it in and then instantly they're approved.

[Jess]
Do trees all day.

[Jonathan]
Just to piss everybody else off.

[Abby]
They have to create the perfect topiary.

[Jess]
Yeah. Or something.

[Abby]
What even is a topiary?

[Jess]
It's like a different end game. And you can never achieve it.

[Abby]
Like a tree that's shaped into something?

[Jess]
Or yeah. Or is that an arborist? I don't know if that's arborist or landscaper.

[Abby]
I don't know.

[Jess]
I mean. I'm not too knowledgeable on these.

[Abby]
Who knows? I mean, I don't think every landscaper can be a topiary artist. Yeah.

[Jess]
Yeah, that's for sure.

[Jonathan]
The side quest I wanted to take was to go back to the Elspeth Pandora's box thing. And so there's no actual character in Greek mythology who's named Elspeth. But Elpis, like however you want to say it, E-L-P-I-S, is hope apparently.

And it's the personification in Greek mythology of that word is for hope or expectation. And it says that it relates to Pandora's box and then the butterflies and the things. So I made that comment last episode because I was like, well, it's interesting that hell still has hope.

Hope dies last.

[Abby]
Albeit, I guess so.

[Jonathan]
Wandering around with her rat stew and on a pirate ship boat.

[Abby]
Yeah. I mean, she does come back and save her.

[Jonathan]
So waiting for humans to show up to serve them rat stew. Because she doesn't eat, right? Like, I don't remember her eating.

[Abby]
No, she doesn't eat.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Abby]
No, because she's dead.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Abby]
So. Yeah. So she's just waiting, waiting to feed people rat stew.

Oh, that's her life's purpose.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
And to find the diametrius.

[Jess]
Hold on, you can change that.

[Jonathan]
Dilithia.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
You know what I'm talking about. It's fine.

[Jess]
The diametrius.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, it sounds close enough.

[Abby]
That magic thing. Maybe there's one of those too.

[Jonathan]
In a parallel universe. It's possible. So I did a quick look about King Yama too.

Oh, yeah. Multi-hell. Multi-hell.

[Abby]
There's the diametrius.

[Jonathan]
Jack of all hells, right? We'll just go with that. I'm going to go with that.

[Abby]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
I did a little looking about King Yama. Apparently, he was the first mortal to die in Hindu mythology. And so then he became the first to discover the path to the afterlife.

And so that's why he's sort of the, not a judge, but a gatekeeper of sorts. The original St. Peter? Karmic reflection.

You'll have to explain that to the audience, Lola. St. Peter? Yeah, not everybody's familiar.

[Abby]
Well, in- He has the keys to hell.

[Jonathan]
Well, for those who don't know what St. Peter refers to, it's, I don't want to call it a myth, but it's an understanding of what Christ meant when he said that, on you I will build my church, to Peter, when Peter proclaims that he is the Messiah. Some have interpreted that as him having the keys to heaven. So when you're walking up to heaven to see if your book is, your name is in the book of life, Peter holds that book and either allows you in, or I guess to take the escalator to hell.

It's an escalator?

[Jess]
It's a laundry chute. They shoot you down, any person.

[Jonathan]
It's like in the Emperor's Last Groove. Just fall down, yeah. There you go.

[Abby]
Emperor's New Groove? It could have been his last groove, I think.

[Jonathan]
The Gothic version, the Emperor's Last Groove. He pulls the lever and that's it. That was the last groove.

[Abby]
Yzma is so good.

[Jonathan]
Good times.

[Abby]
I did think it was really, with Lord Yama, I thought it was really interesting that he was like, who do you want me to be? Yeah. So she could have said any keeper of the underworld.

Like Hades, whatever. Yeah, I don't know. I can't imagine being like, who's my favorite?

Who's my favorite keeper of hell?

[Jess]
I think it's one you're more familiar with in your head. Or who you grew up envisioning. I mean, I think I would prefer not Satan.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Jess]
Yeah. I feel like I would envision.

[Jonathan]
It took me till the end of the book to realize that Alice was Asian.

[Jess]
Okay.

[Jonathan]
It did.

[Jess]
I'm being honest, look, you- It may take you till Lord Yama's for you to realize it.

[Abby]
I actually- They said she wasn't white. I was surprised that she, I thought she was white.

[Jess]
I thought she was Asian and I thought she was Asian because the author's Asian.

[Abby]
Well, yeah, I thought so too. And then I was like, wait, did she write a white character? Like, why did I not realize- It wasn't obvious to me.

Was Peter Asian?

[Jess]
Maybe you just don't see things like that. I don't think Peter- I don't see color. No, I thought she was Asian the whole time.

[Abby]
Actually, yeah, it was one of them. Maybe, maybe I thought Peter was- Well, Peter's definitely white. He is.

[Jonathan]
And I thought so too.

[Abby]
He is. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So that's, that's what I was thinking. Maybe I did know.

[Jonathan]
Can you show me where Alice's features are described?

[Jess]
She's slight, slight a build.

[Jonathan]
When she's like, oh, my parents talked about King Yama. So yes, Jess, it did take me to the end of the book to realize she was Asian.

[Jess]
I just pictured her Asian the entire time.

[Jonathan]
Well, you're smarter than I am then. Good on you.

[Jess]
I guess I'm picking up on something. I don't know what I'm picking up on.

[Jonathan]
See, I'm, I'm better than all of you. I didn't even think about her race when I was reading the book.

[Jess]
Yeah, that's very 90s of you.

[Abby]
What did I- Okay, so I did have one quote I wanted to talk about, which is like really random. Um, but she was talking about how Peter and Michelle were debating, um, a dubious theory of personhood, which entailed that people died when they fell asleep and woke, woke up new versions of themselves, um, that were related to, but not quite the person they'd been before. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting.

She said, consciousness can't take breaks when you fall asleep. That's it for you.

[Jonathan]
Interesting.

[Abby]
Because I was going through my, my quotes and I was like, yeah, it's really weird.

[Jonathan]
I feel like there was another book that I read that had something similar to that, but I can't. Sure. Yeah.

The Matrix. No, it's like a, it's like about a mage, I think. It's like foggy.

Well, you woke up a couple of times since then. So you don't remember what it was, but to begin in serious. And I think that's an interesting concept too, Abby, because I'm one who has very vivid, lucid dreams.

I can even, or at least I'm thinking that I'm doing this. It could be all in my subconscious, but it feels like I control my actions and dreams. You know, like it's very, I can sense smells.

I can sense touch in my dreams. They're very audible, very, uh, visually crisp. So it's not like I'm going through a fog and I'm running and I can't, you know, run fast enough away from an unknown monster.

I see the monsters in my dreams or whatever it is. And I can have full on conversations or can being, you know, a relative term here. I have full on conversations in my dreams and they seem to last for a long time.

And sometimes my dreams span years within, you know, whatever, 45 minutes that I'm dreaming. The transitions between time in my dreams seems to me seamless. So, and I've woken up with the same feelings, emotions that I've had in, in my dreams.

I woken up feeling either tense or elated, or I guess those two, like I woke up, I can't think of another one off the top of my head. I'm trying to remember the dreams that I've had, but which I often forget after like a day or two, I forget those dreams. But the morning after I have vivid recollection of what I dreamed about, you know, I like, like it was a movie.

Like I went, not only a movie, I was on set.

[Abby]
I, I do that too.

[Jonathan]
Jess, do you vivid dream?

[Jess]
I lucid dream. Yes, I lucid dream.

[Jonathan]
I, all right. I'm alone here then.

[Jess]
I even do lucid dream exercises. Like they say, you can't do certain things in dreams. Like you can't turn flip light switches on.

You can, they just don't turn on like the light. Every time I've done it in the dream where I've turned on a light, the light will go on and then it'll explode or something. We were having, they say, you can't see the lines.

Like you can't look at your, the palms of your hands in a lucid dream.

[Jonathan]
I've been able to dream people.

[Jess]
No, it's in lucid dreaming book. Yeah, it's in lucid dream experts. Um, they also did, there was a movie on lucid dreaming with Danny DeVito.

That was funny. Um, but like, are you, it's like looking under a murky water where you can kind of see the lines in your hands. But like, I've been lucid enough to go through lucid dream exercises.

Cause I try to train yourself to have lucid dream. Realize you're lucid in the middle of something. Cause like, you, you know how in session they're like, you never remember the beginning of a dream.

You're just kind of in the middle of it. So in lucid dreaming is how do you get a grip on it? And then like, you can do like, I like flying dreams.

So in a lot of lucid dreams, my goal is to fly.

[Jonathan]
I guess I'm alone here. I don't lucid dream. I literally black out and I wake up.

So I'm wondering if I'm, I, I, I'm susceptible to whatever Abby just described, where I'm living 57 other people's lives in multiple hells and universes. Cause I just don't, you know, I'm, I'm sleeping here. I'm not conscious here.

And I am awake somewhere else.

[Jess]
See, I don't, I don't consistently have vivid dreams every night. Like it seems like lately more lately I have, but like certain things, like if I smoke a lot of some stuff, I don't dream the same tobacco, right? No crap.

I never sleep when I smoke. Doesn't agree with me. Um, but no weed, but I smoke weed.

I dream less.

[Jonathan]
You're smoking chalk.

[Jess]
I'm snorting chalk. Yeah. No, that will be more dreams.

[Jonathan]
So I have a question. Does anybody remember any repeat dreams? Like dreams that happen all the time.

The same dream over and over and over again. Recurring dreams.

[Abby]
Oh yeah. I have recurring dreams. I have recurring dreams all the time.

I can't remember one obviously right now.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, I have one. I have two actually. And if we have time, I'll share both because they're both really quick.

But one I remember vividly. And it was a dream that happened for, I want to say, a good few months. You know, whatever that means for, I'm going to say, let's just say three months.

Three months, this was happening. I was 11 or 12 years old. And it was the same thing over and over again.

Behind my apartment building, there's a hill. It's a wooded hill. And it kind of, uh, protects the apartment building from, you know, the noise of the streets above.

And the streets above, you were, was a street. And then it was like a office park. In my dream though, the dream was about this place.

And my dream looked a little bit different. But I'm running up that hill, crawling up that hill, using trees to get myself up that hill. And I'm doing that because I am late for school.

And I get to the top of the hill. And across the street, instead of an office park, it's a bus stop. And it's my school bus.

And I see it pulling away just slightly. And then it stops. And I'm like, in my dream, relieved.

Thank God it stopped. And then the driver opens his little window. And I'm thinking I'm in trouble.

Or he's going to yell at me. Or he's going to tell me to hurry up. Instead, he takes out an AK-47 and shoots me.

And kills me. And I wake up after I die in that dream. Every night.

[Jess]
Every night. So you have recurring nightmares.

[Jonathan]
Recurring nightmares. Fine. I'm having recurring nightmares.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Jess]
That's not a dream.

[Jonathan]
I got someone you can call about that, Slava. And talk to every week.

[Slava]
Does it help you?

[Jonathan]
Once a week. You don't dream anymore. After you talk to this guy, you stop dreaming.

I just... It's rare if I dream. Absolutely, like, rare.

[Abby]
That's a strange concept to me. Because I just... All I do is dream.

I used to have sleep paralysis, too. Me too. Yay.

[Jess]
I mean, not yay.

[Jonathan]
I've had... Probably six times in my life, I've had it.

[Abby]
I think if you're having lucid dreams, you probably also have sleep paralysis.

[Jess]
They say sleep paralysis happens in times of stress. So the more stressed you are, the more likely you are to have sleep paralysis. Or if you've been having sleep deprivation, you're more likely to have any sort of sleep disorder.

[Abby]
Have you seen the man in the top hat when you had sleep paralysis? No.

[Jess]
I see, like, kind of shrouded people.

[Jonathan]
Wait, wait. This is like a specific being?

[Abby]
Yeah.

[Jess]
Yeah. It's like a demon-like thing.

[Abby]
Yeah, it's like a sleep paralysis demon that even people who haven't heard of it before have all seen the same guy. I see a shrouded figure.

[Jonathan]
I haven't seen anybody when I've had sleep paralysis. But I had a sense of... This is gonna sound weird.

Maybe it won't to some people. Probably sound weird to others. I have a sense of a presence.

Because I'm laying there, and I can't move. I open my eyes, and my eyes are adjusting to my room. And this happened in this house.

My eyes are just in the room. And my wife's office is down the hall from where we sleep. And I can look out that door, and we'll see it the way our bed's positioned.

Because our house is weirdly shaped. Jess is like, can I see it?

[Jess]
Oh, I can see it. I know, it's really disturbing. I'm so easily distracted.

[Jonathan]
And I see a little bit of the nightlight that she has on in her office. And I come to, I'm like, oh, this again. But then also I'm like, okay, wife is here.

I can sense her because she's breathing. But also I'm like, somebody else here? And it's just for a fleeting second that it entered my head.

Obviously, nobody else, like a person was there. But that's the only time anything has happened. Other times where I've had sleep paralysis, I just realized I can't move.

And it's about what feels like a minute. It was probably like... Yes.

[Abby]
Do you sleep like one day out of the week?

[Jonathan]
The pressure where I feel the pressure and I can't move is like right here. Yes, I'm Dracula. Surprise, guys.

That's why I record in the basement with a lot of lights because the sunlight on a Saturday morning would kill me. Yeah. But anyway, that's the only time I've sensed something.

And that could have been a me coming out of my dream state. Or it could have been something like what you described, Abby. But that was the one and only time where something like that happened.

Every other time I'm in sleep paralysis, I can't move, then all of a sudden I can.

[Abby]
I always see scary things when I have sleep paralysis. But I'm on medication now that stops it from happening.

[Jess]
Hypnosil. Sorry, that was just a quote of Freddy Krueger. Sorry, it's in The Nightmare on Elm Street.

They take hypnosil to stop dreaming so Freddy can't get to them. Like a method character right now.

[Abby]
Yes, a method actor.

[Jess]
Yeah, I'm Freddy Krueger. I'm just I didn't get burned yet.

[Jonathan]
But that's good.

[Jess]
It could be burned. Yeah, thank God.

[Jonathan]
I almost got burned earlier. My friggin camera battery exploded moments before you showed up. Yeah, that's why you're wearing the Freddy Krueger thing.

[Jess]
I was there. Well, I thought you got injured and we were going to cancel the podcast. And I was like, great, Jonathan.

Fuck you.

[Jonathan]
Victim blame. That's great, Jess.

[Jess]
I victim blame all day.

[Abby]
Like, how much did it explode? Like, I'm I can't picture what was that like, like explosion.

[Jess]
Yeah, show. Yeah, show us. So I feel like you're being dramatic.

[Jonathan]
Battery exploded.

[Jess]
He was like, it absolutely just like exploded everywhere. Oh.

[Jonathan]
Damn.

[Jess]
You're not. Yeah, now you're in the camera. OK, that is a lot bigger than I thought it would be.

That sounds wrong, but.

[Jonathan]
Jonathan, put it away.

[Jess]
What?

[Jonathan]
It doesn't smell right. God. I don't see any leaking, but.

Sorry, Monica.

[Jess]
I'm sure that's dangerous chemicals.

[Jonathan]
If you made it this far, I apologize on behalf of Cyclist Podcast.

[Jess]
This is an explicit episode already. Usually it's because of me saying fuck every two seconds.

[Abby]
That's OK. She does too, but it's fine. She's going to be mortified if she watches it.

[Jonathan]
Oh, well, folks, what other stuff do you have as we wind down here that you wanted to bring up for the show? Whether it's RF Kuang herself, the narrative, other books that are similar, like Dante's Inferno that I want to read. Any any any main topics?

[Abby]
One of my favorite things about this was that I started I read it when I just started grad school because this is my first semester of grad school. And there were so many quotes that were like the life of a scholar is mere training for dying. Yes, see?

There's there are like three that I was just like, oh, good to know. Like, I love that. Oh, fortunately, graduate school has prepared her for this.

The constant, the constant managing of despair.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, I forgot about that. But yeah, some of her quotes about grad school are spot on because I have met people like Alice less likable. Alice's I have met Grimes my life.

I've had to mine was shorter, fatter and uglier than he was described. But I've met these people. So.

[Abby]
Yeah, well, and RF Kuang is I think she has she's like 25, I think, and she has she's 25. Yeah, she's really young. She has at least one master's degree and she's working for it.

She like cannot stop going to school. And she's writing all of these novels.

[Jonathan]
What am I doing with my life? What book would you recommend by her for us to cover next?

[Abby]
I mean. See, I feel like you saw would like the Poppy War, but it's a trilogy. So that would be longer.

Um, Babel's really good, but it's really dense. Um, the Poppy War. It's um, it's fantasy.

And it's really interesting because it's like Chinese folklore. Oh, yeah, I feel like we don't get a lot of Chinese like gods and art like mythology. Yeah, so it's like Chinese gods.

So you might like it too. So it's um, it's really uh, it's kind of gory and kind of uh, intense because I recommend it to people and they're like, oh, she had her uterus burned out.

[Jonathan]
Wow. Okay. No, I love it.

I like I don't like gratuitous gore, but if it's if it's constant, if it's if it's I love it. Well, you know what gratuitous is just for the sake of gore.

[Abby]
It's not.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, I like dark, gory stuff. As long as it fits the story. I'll eat it up.

[Abby]
Yeah. It's also kind of dark academia because she's at this like school for I don't know if she's like learning. I've read it.

It was like years ago now, but like school for people learning magic too and like being warriors and she's trained by this like master to like fight. Yeah. I don't know.

It's really good. I probably like that one better than. I didn't I honestly didn't love yellow face and then Babel's really good, but it's yeah, it's really long and really good.

[Jonathan]
So I think uh, Poppy Wars for us to cover and I'll just put Babel on because yeah, I'm in addition to books. I read for this podcast. I like to read for pure pleasure like the one I'm reading now.

Yeah, and it's because of Jonathan because there's a sale in audible and I went to get a book called stay with me because I want to cover this one on the podcast and then I found the buy one, get one free thing in audible and I bought a second one. Where's my audible?

[Abby]
Oh, did we all show our special edition? Oh, well, it's been recording. Oh, I also kind of wish that I had the same one.

[Jonathan]
Here's my special edition. Same color.

[Abby]
Oh, the UK one's different.

[Jonathan]
You dig this?

[Abby]
Yeah, the UK one's different. It's all like white and yellow.

[Jonathan]
Oh, really?

[Abby]
And it's yeah, it's kind of cool.

[Jonathan]
I love that the the edges. I always love when they do this for books. But it goes from like water.

So like the leafy up to fire. And then you've got like the beings up here. Maybe those are cookies.

[Abby]
And we got hell is other people.

[Jonathan]
Hell is other people. But I was I bought Mr. Magic because on the Instagram, a lot of people have recommended it in their top five to be read in the fall. So I got Mr. Magic. And then the one for pure pleasure, I found Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews, which I've heard about all my life.

[Abby]
Oh, I've never read it.

[Jonathan]
It was a big thing. A young adult coming of age story. And I've just had in the back of my mind for a long time because it's been.

Oh, nice.

[Abby]
This is the UK one. Oh, that's cool. It's very, it's more.

I know it's more labyrinth. It's very labyrinth to me. Like the stairs.

So I like that a lot. I don't know why I thought it was more white than black, but that is cool.

[Jonathan]
It's cool, though.

[Abby]
It is. It is super cool.

[Jonathan]
Good reminder to show the books because we did that before we hit record. So nice.

[Abby]
Yeah, this is the only book that I I have the special edition hardcover, the ebook and the audio book.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, I did that for it because it is one of my favorite books of all time. So I have an audible, I have an ebook version of it and I don't have the special edition. I went to an old grimy bookstore to buy the hardcover.

I think it's the second or first printing hardcover. It's the one I read when I was a kid. It's the one where the little claw comes out of the sure grain, sewer grate.

And so I have that.

[Jess]
Yeah, I was like the what? I used the sugar.

[Jonathan]
It's Russian for sure.

[Jess]
Sure grain.

[Jonathan]
Although I am surprised. The two beers you did before the show. I haven't broke on this episode.

[Jess]
Is one beer.

[Jonathan]
Oh, hell yeah. You like this then? I love it.

Oh, that's what I want to do. Oh, Abby, where can people find you on the internet?

[Abby]
I actually just changed my Instagram handle. So it's abbyidraper because I'm going to be a published author.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, you are.

[Abby]
So follow me on there.

[Jonathan]
And we'll link it in the show notes too.

[Abby]
Oh, nice. Instagram.

[Jonathan]
You also have a store, right? A bookstore that you use bookstore.

[Abby]
I do have a bookstore in which, you know, I have books all over my whole basement. That needs like 300 of them that people need to take. So on pango books.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. Pango. That's what it's called.

[Abby]
Pango. Yeah. Which is a good place if you're looking for you.

[Jonathan]
So check out Abby store in the description below. Perfect. Any final thoughts as we sign off today from anybody?

No, I think this was good. Thank you guys for coming. Jess, Abby, it was always a pleasure.

You guys are fun to talk to. So yeah.

[Abby]
Thanks for having me. It's always something.

[Jonathan]
Well, I have to have you back for the Poppy War. It's always something. Oh, yeah.

I didn't know it was Chinese mythology. I love Japanese and Chinese mythology. I don't know it very well.

But it's so much fun.

[Abby]
I read a lot of Japanese stuff. And I was like, I never hear about Chinese.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. What's some Japanese stuff you can recommend for us? Yeah.

That is what I was going to ask.

[Abby]
I don't even. I might have to get back to you because now I'm like. Do you want like.

[Jonathan]
Whatever.

[Abby]
Fantasy. Horror. Horror.

I want horror. Really good. Find Him Where You Left Him Dead.

[Jonathan]
Okay.

[Abby]
It's a duology. And it's like.

[Slava]
What's a duology? Jonathan, if you must ask this, you are not a Cambridge man.

[Jonathan]
One Lesson of Trilogy.

[Slava]
Two books. One Lesson of Trilogy.

[Abby]
Thanks, Slava. It's like Japanese duology.

[Jonathan]
Okay. Yeah.

[Abby]
Oh, that sounds cool.

[Jonathan]
Yeah. So good. So when you're recommending stuff.

Fantasy for Jonathan. Horror for me. And if you know.

If you have anything speculative. Like speculative fiction. Send that my way too.

We'll cover it on the website. On the podcast and the website. Wow.

It took me an hour and a half to start stuttering through the episode. That's good. Wait, what was it called?

[Abby]
Find Them Where You Left Them? Find Him Where You Left Him Dead. I think is what it's called.

I forget who the author is. Kristen Simmons.

[Jonathan]
Okay. All right. Perfect.

Thank you.

[Abby]
But yeah, I've read so much. I mean, I just read Waterman. But I don't think you guys would like that.

[Jonathan]
What is it about?

[Abby]
It's very. It's well. So it sounds better than it is.

It's about a pawn shop where people can sell their regrets. Basically is how they describe it.

[Jonathan]
Okay.

[Abby]
But then it ends up not really being about the pawn shop at all. And they like go on this romantic adventure to find her dad. So it was like, I wanted more about the pawn shop.

[Jonathan]
I'd like that. I think we'd like that. That's anything off the beaten path.

Anything that's for me personally, sci-fi, horror, speculative, weird stuff. By weird stuff, I know that's like a broad term. Anything weird.

I like weird novels and weird stories.

[Abby]
Weird girl fiction.

[Jonathan]
Sure. Maybe not that so much. And I'll give it a try.

[Abby]
You guys are going to cover my friend's book. So that's very weird. You'll love that.

[Jonathan]
Do you want to come on for that?

[Abby]
Sure. Are you going to have Callie on too?

[Jonathan]
I am going to read the first few sentences of the book because I love it so much. And this is what hooked me. So shout out to your friend.

[Abby]
Of Callie's book?

[Jonathan]
Yeah.

[Abby]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
So this is the book is called. Stay with me. She had glass eyes.

[Abby]
She had glass eyes.

[Jonathan]
And so here we are. This is the first line of that book. And I think it's first line, first paragraph of that book.

And I think it's fantastic. England, 1846. With all the festivities surrounding the wedding in Buttingford, this summer, I deemed it necessary to give it a wide berth.

Quaint rural gatherings are indeed charming, but I can only stomach so much charm and so quaintness before my countenance falls ill, and I am tempted to commit atrocities. Chef's kiss. Such a good line.

That hooked me right away.

[Abby]
Yes. And the main character's name is Deliverance.

[Jonathan]
Yes. Yes. And she's a mortician.

I'm already sold. That's the kind of weird quote unquote stuff I love.

[Abby]
Yes. It's definitely weird girl fiction.

[Jonathan]
Yes. I love weird girl fiction. You heard it here folks.

Thanks to Abby's friend.

[Abby]
Yes, I'll find some more weird stuff. I mean, have you read like Night Bitch?

[Jonathan]
No. No, but please.

[Jess]
I've heard of it. Yeah. It shows up on, it shows up on sad hot girl fiction too.

Yeah.

[Abby]
That's another list.

[Jess]
Slava, we are not on lists.

[Abby]
You're not? No. Did they make you into a movie?

Yeah, it's about this, like, yeah, they did. I haven't seen it. Me either.

Yeah, I think Amy Adams is in it. Yeah, Amy Adams. It's about this like stay-at-home mom thing.

Basically slowly turns into a dog.

[Jonathan]
Like metamorphosis only.

[Abby]
And you don't know if it was like real or not. Yeah, I like stuff like that.

[Jonathan]
Well, I know I've said this to you guys separately.

[Abby]
I'll look for more stuff.

[Jonathan]
But 20% of our audience is female. So if it's good hot girl fiction or weird girl fiction, whatever it is, I'll cover it. Just because, hey, part of our audience probably, you know, likes it or reads it.

So I'm down for it.

[Jess]
Yeah.

[Jonathan]
What did you say, Jess? Sad girl fiction too?

[Jess]
No, it's like hot sad girl fiction.

[Abby]
Yeah, you're just not following the right accounts, obviously.

[Jonathan]
Abby, give us your favorite accounts to follow on Instagram that are book related. Sad girl fiction. Send us links later.

[Slava]
We'll put them in the show notes.

[Abby]
Okay.

[Jonathan]
We'll put them in there. Abby's recommendations.

[Abby]
Oh, The Hounding. The Hounding is another weird girl fiction. Never heard of that.

Which is also about women turning into dogs. That's its own genre, I guess.

[Jonathan]
Well, Costco's the first to do it with a roach. And now we're telling the same story. It's awesome.

[Abby]
Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

I'll send you stuff once I think about it. Jess, do you have an Instagram?

[Jess]
I know I do not. I don't have any social media. Lame.

I was just hoping you were just kidding. I can look you up on YouTube or something. I can't even navigate it.

My 18-year-old daughter, I had Instagram briefly during COVID, and she had to navigate the whole thing for me. I'm like, I'm an old woman. You just can't tell.

You are not an old woman. No, I'm like 80 inside. On the inside.

Okay. Yeah. It's a lot of work.

[Jonathan]
King Yama stole a lot of her life. Yeah.

[Jess]
So it's technology. I'm just like useless. That's why when you were telling me to touch the microphone, I'm like, do what with the microphone?

What?

[Abby]
My, just a short aside, my co-worker, she's like 25, but she's very like gen, whatever, gen Z. And our other co-worker is like probably, he's probably like 64, like not very old. And he said that he was going to like Cedar Point, the theme park.

And Rosie was like, can you go on roller coasters, Bob? She was like, I'm worried for your heart. Oh my goodness.

And then she was also like, we have another co-worker who's like literally 80. And he was, she was like, Bob, are you as old as Dwayne? No, like stop digging a hole.

[Jonathan]
What if you were the, what if you were the kids running the roller coaster though? And this guy left alive and came back dead and it's Halloween.

[Abby]
Well, there you go. Write a book about it. That's perfect.

[Jonathan]
I'll write Hot Girl Kitchen.

[Jess]
It's Final Destination 3, I know. Final Destination.

[Jonathan]
Yeah, right.

[Jess]
20.

[Abby]
No, no, that is Final Destination 3. I think so.

[Jess]
Yeah. And it has a huge plot hole. It's bullshit.

The guy with the camera that helps break the thing, he gets off, he gets off. So it shouldn't have gone down the way it did. So now that those movies are known for their, you know, great storytelling.

Consistency. Yeah, I saw the most recent one in theaters too.

[Abby]
Yeah, I was like, what, Bloodlines? Is that what it was?

[Jess]
Yeah, Bloodlines. Yeah, that hopefully is the last.

[Abby]
Hopefully. They just keep on making them. Yeah.

[Jonathan]
That is it.

[Abby]
I think that's it.

[Jonathan]
Well, again, thanks guys. Always a pleasure to have you on. And Jonathan, tell us what we're covering next time.

Well, on the list, we have She Had Glass Eyes. Well, there you go. That's next.

That's awesome. I'm glad that worked out. All right, folks.

We'll see you next time. Before that, we do have our three-year anniversary episode. But then the next book we're covering is She Had Glass Eyes.

[Abby]
Wow.

[Jonathan]
We did it.

[Abby]
Congrats.

[Jonathan]
On the three-year anniversary, we're going to have a special guest, Nicholas Keating-Cosbaro, author of Vitalarium Descent Into the Void. If you haven't been able to put together the pieces yet, we are now inviting independent authors to come on the show. So if you're an independent author and you'd like us to read your book, reach out and we will let you know when we can fit you in.

See you next time.