RevOps to VP? Here's why you're not getting promoted

Why aren’t more RevOps leaders getting promoted to VP or CRO roles? In this episode, we break down the biggest career blockers holding Revenue Operations professionals back, from focusing too much on tooling to missing what execs actually care about.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (03:00) - RevOps not getting promoted?
• (05:40) - What does the CRO want to hear?
• (13:57) - Sales experience in RevOps
• (16:39) - The importance of relationships
• (21:03) - Taking on orphan teams
• (24:04) - The RevOps leader
• (27:53) - RevOps, AI and transformational change
• (31:08) - Final advice

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Creators and Guests

Host

Raul Porojan

Voice of Reason in Revenue / Former Director Sales & CS at Project A

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

Toni: [00:00:00] I was on my way, uh, to Berlin, actually, what is it, one or two weeks ago or something like this. And as some of you might know, I'm, uh, I grew up in Potsdam, which is just outside Berlin. You know, some people might say it's just on the, on the wrong side of the previous border that separated, you know, the BDR and the, what is it?

The GDR. Uh, but anyway, so why was I there, Rahul? I was there for, uh, artist. We met circus.

Raul: You came to meet me. That was the, that was the thing, right? That was

Toni: the only reason I came. I know we, we sat in the

Raul: sun. It was really nice.

Toni: Yes. It was also, by the way, the reason why I brought my son, because I obviously had to introduce him to you.

Yeah. Um, but, you know, one of the reasons, uh, was for my son to be with, you know, grandma. Um, and the other reason was, um, I went to this. Artist ar artist Circus. So this is the junior version of the bigger event, the artist event, which is usually in the, you know, in October, I think, or something like this, kind of late in the year.

Um, and I was talking there, uh, as, as I get invited [00:01:00] still all the time about revenue operations topics. Uh, so I was standing in front of a crowd of, I wanna say 30 rev ops folks. I did a kind of a, you know, tested the audience, kind of saw who's there. And I was, I was like, how many rev ops people are here?

And basically all hands went up. Um, and then I was like, okay, cool. How many VP of revenue ops are here? And guess how many hands went up?

Raul: Zero.

Toni: Zero hands went up. And I was like, okay, wait a minute. That's kind of a, isn't that kind of a problem? Um, and then you and I had that chat and, and what did, what did you tell me?

Raul: So mine was, uh. A bit longer ago. Uh, the wonderful guys from We Flow Giannis and, and the others. Mm-hmm. They kind of started a rev ops meetup thing. I hope it's gonna happen again. It grew quite nicely over the last year and, uh, I went to a couple of them and especially one in, uh, December, I think where there was a couple people there that I knew and we actually talked the day after, uh, I think we recorded a podcast and, um, I [00:02:00] was.

Quite disappointed with the people there, I have to say, which is not a nice thing to say maybe, but there was maybe 120 people, most of them rev ops people, I would say a hundred of them at least. And there were like breakout sessions and, uh, discussions. So it was more in depth and just meet and greet and, and, and get some beers.

It became very evident, very, very quickly that, uh, there was something off about the Revs people. I, I, I saw there, not as a people, but in general kind of to their approach to. Furthering their career, I would say, or being effective. Um, and, and maybe we can get into a bit more why that was, but, uh, I was, I was basically scratching my head and being like, I hope you do, but you're probably never gonna become a VP or, or CRO, kind of with that thinking and with that approach.

Yeah. And, um. We talked about that for a while. I, I kept thinking about that. I think that's actually a problem. 'cause I do think rev ups should become eventually a VP or, or a CRO if you play your cards right. And it's not even that [00:03:00] difficult. But, um, yeah, that's kinda the problem we're gonna talk about.

Toni: Yeah. So, and the, the thing is right, and it's, um, it's kind of an age old things. Like on the one hand side you can say like, Ooh, it's the companies and the s and the CEO's fault of not elevating this position to where it, you know, belongs and the VP level and, you know, have a seat at the table and yada yada versus, yeah, kind of true.

But also, um, are these people actually VP material to begin with? Right. Um, and, um. And let's kind of go through this today. So I think kind of to, to help some folks, uh, out there listening first that we're gonna go through, like if you are, you know, manager, director, something like this of revenue operations, here are the things you should be stopped doing and starting to do in order to maybe get the step up.

Uh, but also, hey, if you're C-E-O-C-O-O or something like that. What should you be actually expecting of a VP of revenue operations? And um, and if you're getting that already, you know, should you maybe kind of do the upgrade, uh, you know, for, for the person, right? [00:04:00] Right. Kind of let's, let's talk about this, demystify the whole thing and make it a little bit more clear for everyone.

And if you, uh, you know, like it, if kind of makes sense for you, hit subscribe, send it to your boss, send it to your rev ops, whatever way kind of this works out. And then let's see if we can help you guys.

Raul: Maybe one more thing to add, 'cause we're gonna. We're gonna shit on some people, I guess to some extent.

But this is really meant to be constructive because the people I saw there, they were doing things right. They go to the artists, they try to meet people, they try to learn, they go to events and everything. I just think that there's some fundamental things wrong in their approach. And, uh, those, what we're gonna talk about.

So if you're one of those people, take it as, as hopefully constructive feedback from people who've seen these or done these journeys already.

Toni: Yeah. Be upset for five minutes and then take the feedback. Sure. You know, um, so first one, and that's so easy and so comical, and when I sat it actually, um, in front of a couple of, uh, of ops people, you know, I hats were, uh, nodding and, and, uh, and, and their gaze was going down like on the floor, right?

Kind of. I basically, the [00:05:00] first thing I said. Was like, stop talking about fucking tooling all the time. Like no one actually cares about it. And, and I even said to them, guys, you know, I've been rev offs myself. I did this job myself. I understand even, what are you talking about when you kinda say all this validation rules, data upload, whatever the app kind of is, is going on.

But even my eyes as CO tuned out because I didn't just, I simply didn't want to hear it. I, I just like, this is just noise that I, you know, is cluttering my brain. I'm happy. I don't need to worry about this anymore. That's my, I view for that. So stop, you know, stop wasting time talking about this in the first place.

Right. It's like, did you, did you ever like a similar experience actually when, um, you know, when it's almost revealing the seniority level of someone. You know, when they talk too much about all, all the time only about tooling.

Raul: Yeah. You, you, you hit it right on the head because, uh, revealing seniority level is really what I, what I also felt when I, when I, or when I still meet these people [00:06:00] by kind of the.

Level of view that you take. Yeah. And by kind of the approach that you take for what matters and you reveal quite quickly that you don't really understand what a C-level thinks about.

Toni: Yeah.

Raul: Which is weird because you should be very close to the CRO. Like if you're not, maybe the CRO is fucking up too, but yeah, whatever.

Um. You have to know what they think about and what matters to them. And it typically is not whether we use clay or something else. Um, maybe you need to get approval for the budget and all that. So that's why that's important. But that's your job. So they care about other things, and your job is to kind of communicate in that kind of way.

But the question here is you told us what not to talk about. What should we talk about instead?

Toni: So side note before I go into this, um, so I had talked to a couple of CEOs recently, um, and you know, sometimes the topic of clay came up and it was like really funny. It's like everyone knew Clay and everyone was like, oh yeah, no, we totally, you know, we have that and it's really important and we are thinking about getting it.

And then ask them, what is it for? And, and no [00:07:00] one could answer. So anyway, we're, we're not gonna reveal what claim is for, for the CEOs listening. But, but anyway, um, well, what you should be talking about, um, to kind of get back to that point is really, you should be talking about how to increase revenues, how to decrease costs, or to do both.

Uh, you know, I said this many, many, many, many times on this show. Uh, but at the end of the day, when I was COO and you know, I was talking with my VP of revenue operations, those were the things we were actually discussing. Um, and I still remember a time where we had to roll out CPQ, which was terrible, and I asked her, so how's that helping me make more money?

I don't understand this. And the answer was, sadly, for like six months because that's how long it took. Like they, you won't make more money with this thing at all. Kind of. It's, it's kind of an infrastructure thing we have to do, yada, yada, yada. I still remember, you know, being really upset about like, Hey, you know, this is not what you guys should be doing at all.

Right? And if [00:08:00] you don't kind of internalize this. Sure you can have some, you know, projects that are not linked to revenue. Uh, but if you aren't internalizing, um, you know that this is actually what, you know, all the people around you are about, like making more money or kind of reducing the cost, and then that money you can, you know, invest in, you know, generating more revenues by the way, then you're kind of hit, you know, you're kind of missing the mark.

Right. Kind of. That's, that's, I think, you know, one of the, one of the biggest problems and, and I think to your point. Um, if you are working closely with your CRO, if you know what she or he is kind of up to, it's probably something like that.

Raul: So the question is, I think it becomes a little bit, uh, of the, of a segue here is can you get to a point where the CRO just trusts you mostly blindly?

Mm-hmm. And, and that's a great situation to be in if you know what you're doing, which kind of both interact with each other. If they have a feeling you know what you're doing, trust is gonna rise when you get to that point and. You really know that you need CPQ, for example, which [00:09:00] by the way is configured price quote.

There's different tools for that and maybe you're probably not gonna need that for a lot of people, but some do. Yeah. But anyway, if you get to that level. You might get to the point where you don't even need to have that discussion with them necessarily. Like you can hold it on a more surface level.

I've had the situation when I was rev ups myself, I know the CO trusted me very much and uh, he was basically just as a sounding board, just like, does this really make sense? Okay, I get it on a high level. That's all I need to understand. Let's have that discussion. Uh, and then the other path would be, well, maybe you have a CRO who, uh, does not trust you yet well enough, and they really need to understand the details.

Then. And this is where that really comes in, like in both situations. You kind of need to know what kind of level to, to talk about with them. Mm-hmm. And I think this is where the messaging is, is, is done wrong a lot of times. So do you really need to go into the detail here? Do you have the right trust?

What kind of standing do you have and how aligned are you? What needs to be done? And this is work that has to be done before you go into discussion of, Hey, I need 50 K for this CPQ right now.

Toni: Yeah. And the, the [00:10:00] other reason, and I can just tell you from my experience is like, um. You know, I know what CPQ is, but I also knew that it was too boring for me to even wanting to know any of the details.

Mm-hmm. I was like, oh shit, have we reached the mark now that we need to kind of get CPQ, I really don't wanna know anything about it. Just tell me how much I need to pay. You know? That was the conversation we basically had, but that's, that's the level that you want to have. Right. Kind of if you as a CEO need to kind of dive into the de details of that.

Terrible, terrible. You then, then you really don't have a vp by the way, kind of, if, if some topic like this cannot be completely shielded away from you, then you don't have a VP level person working for you, I would say. Yeah. Um, so another thing that I can just, you know, advise everyone, uh, out there in the rev ops world to, uh, to think about is.

You know, what is the value you can bring to the table, especially if I take this precious tooling thing away from you, right? Kind of what's the value you can bring to the table? That's the [00:11:00] basically the, the requirement to sit at the table, by the way, kind of what's the value you bring to this conversation.

Otherwise, you don't get a seat here, right? And my way of, uh, phrasing this and thinking about this is what I've seen, uh, many rev ops people, you know, may, you know, do wrong over the years, is that they want to help kind of the VP sales get better at what the VP sales does. Right. Um, and you sometimes have like a VP sales that's, I don't know, mid thirties or forties.

Um, and then you have a rev ops sales ops person, you know. Just finished university, read a couple of articles, and then it's like trying to tell the VP which person you should fire right, or whom to put on a PIP or something like this. Whenever I kind of hear this, and by the way, I made this mistake myself, so that's why I know that it's terrible.

Um, uh, whenever I kind of hear this like, shut up, there's, there's no quicker way. To get fired or to fall out of, you know, uh, fall out of Fortune, um, with that person by you kind of trying to, you know, think that you have a [00:12:00] better solution to a problem that they might be facing. So stay away from that. And that doesn't only go for the VP of sales course, also VP marketing.

VPC is, you know, what have you, where you can add value. And where it's really appreciated is when you have a conversation with the VP of sales and a topic comes up that basically goes. Up the funnel into marketing or down the funnel into cs, add value there. Kind of bring the knowledge that you have from the CS and the marketing side to that conversation, meaning, um, you know, help these guys that are focused on their specific part of the funnel.

And they should, by the way, help them by giving them context outside of their focus area, right? And that works for the marketing guys. Like, Hey, this is how sales works. This works for the CS guys. Hey, this is how marketing and sales works. Um, and, and this is I think, where you can bring enormous value, uh, instead of trying to, you know, trying to kind of fix, you know, and kind of have an opinion on, on the expertise that the specific VP has that you're already talking to.

Right? So that is, [00:13:00] that's a big one for me. And I think Revels folks are underestimating the power of that.

Raul: I like that. Connecting to. Other, I mean parts of the funnel, but also areas such as tools, for example, is just an area, if you see it that way, it's a correct way to look at it. Yeah. Um. Going back to the event that I did, uh, that I, that I attended.

The thing that was really striking to me, and I will stand by this probably for as long as I live, uh, as long if rev ops still exists. If you want to do a rev ops job, well, you have to have done sales at some point in your life. And I don't mean just one call, but like some kind of sales maybe a couple months or, or just periodically.

'cause that's how I did it. I didn't do full on sales for a year or anything early in my career, but throughout the first three, four years. Uh, I probably accumulated about a year of sales by just. Tagging along, taking accounts on my own, just a couple, just five accounters. So, and seeing how things really worked, and I see very few things that really advance my game more than, than, than understanding really what's going on.

Mm. Because some [00:14:00] things, as I said, are really just hard to understand. Just from a rational or analytical perspective. But if you combine that with analytical perspective, all of a sudden, uh, one plus one equals three. Actually, and I've seen this really in action at that event where I asked into the room, actually there was maybe 30 people in that breakout session.

I asked, Hey, by the way, um. Who has actually done sales themselves. And just a couple hands went up, like it was maybe three, four hands or something. And I did that after one person in the room basically, uh, came with that problem, was like, Hey, nobody listens to me. Uh, and the salespeople don't like me and they don't do what they're supposed to do.

How do I finally get those salespeople to do what they're supposed to do and the VP sales to listen to me? And they framed it as, um. It's their problem. So the the, those bad salespeople Yeah. They don't like to listen. They're, yeah, they're just dumb. They, they, they don't like to deal with analytical stuff and all that.

And I think she had it completely backwards. Uh, so first of all, she had a completely backwards in seeing the [00:15:00] salespeople as kind of a different entity rather than understanding herself as part of that team as well. And then she had it completely backwards by. Trying to, trying to instill into their mind something that was not relevant to them.

And again, not coming from the perspective of how do I make you as a salesperson more money? Which is mostly what a salesperson cares about. Yes. And, and that's a good thing. So that in, in that way, if you manage as a rev ops person to make salespeople more money, if you manage to get the VP sales to, to get to quota or above that, whatever that means.

You have a very good cards. Yes. And, and if you do that by not alienating them or not by, even in your mind, 'cause a lot of them, they're maybe nice in the daily talking to them, but their mindset is still that, ah, those fucking salespeople, I don't want to deal with them. No, you, you, this is your team. This is your team.

You need to know exactly what they, what they do and, and what they ate for breakfast and what their problems are and all that stuff. And then you can f uh, solve their problems.

Toni: So I was actually having a conversation with, uh, [00:16:00] naan Pollock, uh, recently kind of, he's been now repeat Rev ops twice, and it's kind of about to start a new journey as, as same title actually.

Um, and we were kind of doing a piece on our substack, um, you know, check it, check it out, revenue formula on Substack. Um, on, on that action. And, and he was talking very much into this point. He, you know, he called it recurring relationships, you know, whatever. Um, but, uh, the, the main idea is basically, um, you need to have a very strong, uh, trust based relationship with the teams that you're serving.

He was specifically talking about sales, and he was specifically bringing up that. Him having been a sales rep previously, gave him a lot of like plus ones like thumbs up, uh, on, on the team. He understood their struggles. Um, he also was from a re's perspective, also able to see the other stuff, but marry those two things together, right?

And, and once you get into a place where it's not, you know, each side despises each other, which is kind of the situation that you're [00:17:00] describing, but both sides trust each other and work together. Then he was kind of almost seeing this as a flywheel, right? Because you can get changed through much faster without, you know, all the convincing and hey, that's why it's good you can get it done because people trust each other, right?

And it works both ways, but also you as a S person, you need to deliver value to them. If you don't, then why do you exist in the first place? Right? Yeah. So I think kind of that approach was um, was actually pretty good.

Raul: Here's a story to that quick one. So I was fired once in my life. Very early, early in my career, actually, not twice, because one company went bankrupt, but everyone was fired there.

Um, so I was fired once in my life. Uh, and, and that happened mostly quite scummy, um, from the CEO mostly to kind of take my equity away if you, if you saw one, um, that was kind of the Wild West, early days. Um, and it was a very weird thing, early stage startup, but doing really well. But what happened there was that I had, uh.

I was [00:18:00] fired one day before the end of my probation period. Mm. Where they could still do that. And, um, I was done. Uh, they, they did that with a lot of people just so people don't get to the cliff, which basically means that you invest some of your equity in the beginning. Right. And, um, what happened there was that I.

We were so tight within the team of, there was three directors. I was director of rev ops and then there was two other directors basically inside sales and outside sales. What happened was that they fired me and um, we were so tight that the two other directors went to this year and says like, what the fuck are you doing?

Like, things are going great. This guy and I had two, three people in my team. Those people need him. Like they're doing really well. Like why are you firing him? And the CEO had a really hard time explaining it. 'cause he couldn't say to them, well I'm letting him go 'cause I want his equity back.

Toni: Yeah.

Raul: So what happened there, which was scummy move number two, that they fired me and a week later.

They wanted to hire me back, um, for a different subsidiary, by the way, with less equity and basically starting a cliff again. Yeah. Which I then, uh, declined. But the, [00:19:00] the thing here is, is that that was really a team. So there was 40 salespeople, three directors. Yeah. And we were so well played. We, we were playing so well together that they actually fought for me to get my job back, which I then eventually ended up declining.

Um, so. Pat on my own shoulder. Good job. But this is just to illustrate like it doesn't have to be the way that the VP sales is, is just not happy to meet you once a week.

Toni: No, absolutely. I mean, my VP of sales, when I became CO kind of, we were on the same level, right? Each of us was a vp. I. Um, and he was actually supporting my elevation to CEO.

He was like, Tony, I would love to kind of report to you and kind of do this whole thing and kind of let's go, let's get this done. And he was actually helping my case with the CEO. Um, not that that, you know, it's a different story altogether, but again, right. Kind of that, that kind of relationship that kind of really drives it forward.

The last thing I wanna say about, um, you know, tips for rev ops to kind of take the step up is really around, um. You know, rev up sometimes, you know, connected to a VP title. There's sometimes like, oh, you [00:20:00] need to have a certain size of team, right? Um, and it's kind of silly. I think it's silly. Um, you know, it's, it is a concept that, especially in engineering, right?

You can be a principal engineer, earn more than the vp, but just be by yourself by the way. They're kind of these kinds of, um, uh, you know, uh, models. But usually it's like, ah, if you want to have a vp, you need to have a bigger team, right? Kind of. It's kind of a thing. So what I can just say, and I kind of did this myself.

Um, take on orphan teams. Like I had the, I had the revenue ops team. Sure. Cool. All, all good. Um, but, um, then there was a conversation about the outbound team. Outbound team didn't have a home. The sales guy didn't wanna have it. The sales guy actually wanted to fire, you know, that team, different VP than I was talking about previously.

I was like looking at the teams like, you know what, actually I think, um. Running the numbers. I think they're actually doing pretty good work. They, they're, yes, they're kind of a high school team. I was high school, you know, basically myself back then. Um, but actually what they're generating here in terms of revenue is probably the cheapest revenue we can get.

So you what? Let me take on [00:21:00] this team and kind of build this out. Um, and that's what I did. And then suddenly, suddenly I had a team of 20, 30 people below me and suddenly it was like so much clearer that obviously Tony needs to have an upgraded title. Right? Um, and that by the way, continue it took the growth marketing team on, et cetera, et cetera.

Um, and those are just, let just say I. Non-linear ways to get from, you know, a director of rev ops to VP of Rev ops, kind of by adding some, some other things, you know, under your wings. Right?

Raul: So in that story that I just told, the title that I had was Director of Revenue Operations. Actually it was sales Operations back then and business development.

Mm-hmm. And I think this, and business development was what was crucial to what I did as well, which goes very much into what you're saying is the thinking that, um, in, in that case, concretely I had under me for a little time a customer success. We built that out. It made sense, we passed it along. Mm-hmm.

And that was kind of a vehicle also for bringing in new things, structuring them, testing them out for a while, and then rolling them out. Um, [00:22:00] and that goes exactly into what you're saying. So it's, it's, it's nice that there are ways are kind of similar to how we went there. It seems to me that that kind of is a, is it can be a missing piece for you.

Toni: No, and I think what you just mentioned there is actually really a good one is, um, you know, it's, you can also, you can be a transitory leader, right? It could be that either the CS team is being built up right now, uh, or another team is being built up right now and they don't have a leader yet, but. Who's gonna do it?

The sales guy doesn't have time. The CEO's busy, like who can step in and kind of manage this? Maybe you can, or it can be that someone is going on maternity or someone is, you know, leaving the organization and the, the replacement is being hired only two, three months later. Kind of you being able to step in and take some of that ownership.

That might basically then also qualify you for like, oh, actually, you know, she can totally lead a team of 10 people. Uh, like that's totally there, right? Kind of, it's, it's some of those check marks in together, but enough now in helping all the poor revs guys and, and, and ladies to kind of take the step up, what do you, you know, let's kind of turn this over [00:23:00] to you.

Um, you know, if you had a really strong, you know, revenue operations leader in this case. Didn't apparently have the VP title yet, but what should a, what should a CRO, what should a CEO actually expect, um, from them and kind of what are the, what are the signs that someone actually is more of a VP than a, you know, maybe a head off or a director?

Raul: So to me, number one thing is that a rev ops leader, whatever the title, let's leave that out for for a second. Has to own the revenue engine, revenue architecture, uh, revenue factory, whatever you wanna call it. And yes, you co-own it together with them as a CRO obviously, 'cause you're the owner of everything that happens in your department.

That is not debated here. But as a CRO with everything you're doing, you have a lot of dealing with people. Which is a lot of times also why CROs became CROs is because they were good at that. Mm-hmm. And getting people to perform and all that stuff, which is, is is fine. Mm-hmm. Um. A lot of times you [00:24:00] can't fully own the machine into its full execution with all its parts, including the processes and the models and the growth model and all that stuff.

You can be kind of the person directing it, but you need people to own it. Mm-hmm. And I think really trusting. The rev ops person to fully own that machine as conceptually, but also like what does that mean to the execution? And then you being in the boat and con uh, deciding with them together. That is a very strong configuration in my mind.

Yeah. Um, and if you don't do it many times, you just don't have someone to own it really.

Toni: So to this point, um. That's actually how I felt my VP of revenue operations was. To me, it was actually the other person in the whole company that was having the same remit, the same purview, um, the same goals as I, um, and basically kind of, I was more approaching it from a leadership perspective, kind of how to build the team and, you know, is my VP sales doing the right stuff?

Is he the right guy, kind, do someone else. [00:25:00] And she was more looking at it from a, like, Hey, how does the process work out? How does, you know, are we hitting our targets across the final and so forth. Right? And kind of that basically kind of gave us this, um, this, this balanced approach that both is people centric but also needs to be, you know, data and performance centric.

Um, and that actually helped to kind of create a, I think, a really strong organization around it. Right. And, and again, as a COO, keep in mind. Uh, the VP of revenue operations is probably the only other person that has the same problem set that you have, right? Yeah. Um, and, and having, having kind of a companion like this, I wanna say, but from a different angle, uh, you know, catching some balls that you might have not seen or dropped.

Uh, extremely powerful. Extremely powerful,

Raul: and. To have that kind of same level with them. Maybe they're doing it already. If not, you should strongly encourage them to be as close to the action as possible. Really. Mm-hmm. Even on a director, even on a VP level, even on a C [00:26:00] level, if you get to that point. Um, if you see that there's slacking there, this is really something where you should push them to, to be close to the action.

Yeah. Especially now with, we haven't said that word yet, but with everything that's happening with AI and with all the tools that are coming up, you need to make sure that when they come to you with a tool or when they just implement it on their own, it's really, there's a close loop from the action to their decision making for what would be a good tool, because you as a CRO, don't want to be the one.

To have to analyze if clay's better or if it's better to build an own AI, or if it's better to do seal Salesforce or HubSpot or whatever you want to trust that. From their, from their mind. The action is very close to what the real decision making is as I repeating myself there. Um, and so kind of your job is really to whatever, break down barriers.

If you see there are any, sometimes there's barriers from the sales per people side from the VP sales side. So just get people on the same end, get the marketing person and make [00:27:00] sure that the vp rev ops is involved also kick their butts if you, if they're slacking on that end. Mm-hmm. So you can sleep and, and rest.

Well, that. There's a short connection between these things,

Toni: and I would also say so. Uh, I think kind of you, you mentioned the AI word there, but the, um, so for me, AI actually just means in, in a current, in an organization right now just means kind of change and transformation and transition. Um, and one way of, you know, how I actually sold, um, to my CEO, what we needed to beef up the revenue operations team was basically kind of to sell it as a, um, you know, transition team, uh, transformational team.

In my organization and I was like, Hey, you know what? Totally. You know, I can, I can do with just one rev ops person pulling me some, you know, reports doing some of the things they need to do. Um, but if I had two or one more senior person, I could actually get all of that change that you and I have been talking about.

I could get this done in one quarter instead of two or three quarters. Yeah. So [00:28:00] now do you wanna have it done now or by the end of the year? Right. Completely different conversation. And then there was like, oh yeah, no. Oh, we, you know, we were kind of an, uh, sales led organization, but we knew with a price point we had to become product led, you know, basically PLG implementing PLG super difficult to do this, and at the same time, still fixing the, the, the airplane by itself.

So I was like, Hey, I need a senior leader that, you know, helps me actually achieve that. And I think it would be revenue operations. And uh, since this is such a, you know, massive project spending not only the GTM org but also the product organization, I need someone coming in at the right, you know, caliber, uh, and, and doing that stuff.

Um, and then, you know, the conversation study was completely different with the CEOs. Like, oh no. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. We are about to kind of approach a, um, a hiring freeze, which is no joke. Uh, but that hire, we will get that hire in, right? Yeah. Um, and, and that's, that's how you need to sell that stuff.

Raul: And to circle back to what you said, [00:29:00] also, when you combine these things together, so you have your rev ops people person leader, but also the whole team close to the action, you trust that they own the revenue engine then. Yeah. What you want them to be. And this is also an advice for Rev ops person themselves, is not an order taker.

Yeah. As in, uh, this is what someone needs now do it for me. But you want them to become more and more as they mature more and more, as the department becomes better and better. The people who come up with the good ideas. Not just ideas, good ideas that actually would work and then are able to make the sales team adopt them.

Mm-hmm. Which again, it's a whole loop of that is another reason why you should be close to the sales team and why you should maybe have done sales in your own life. 'cause it will be much easier to sell the solutions of your team and that you've built to the sales team if you do that. Then you get to a point where, and I know this still exists, we've said this on a bunch of occasions.

You don't just have kind of a notion board of 20 items that someone [00:30:00] wants you to do, but you're sitting down with your team and actually thinking about, Hey, how can we make the conversation rate better? Uh, right. Uh, the conversion rate better this quarter. Uh, and then you go to the people with a, with a.

Good thought out idea that might actually work. And that works wonders for actually promoting you, uh, kind of as a revs person, but also as a CRO to sleep better. That someone out there is coming up with things on their own and you don't have to have all the great ideas.

Toni: I think that caps it up, actually.

Yeah. Um, so if there's any advice here, um. I think if there's anything missing, it's like you, you also gotta go and ask, like nothing of this magnitude is just, someone's gonna come to you and it's like, oh, I wanted to be a vp. Now you need to go out and ask for that thing. Um, if you believe that you can deliver to some of the things we kind of mentioned here.

Right. Otherwise it's kind of a, a shallow ask actually. Yeah. Um, and if, if some, if you're a CO and someone is approaching and saying like, Hey, I want to be, I wanna have the VP title as revenue operations, and you totally think they're not hitting [00:31:00] the mark. Consider sending them this episode. Uh, and then, you know, maybe, maybe they'll, they'll, they'll withdraw that ask and, you know, actually kind of fix their things first.

Raul: But anyway, uh, hey man, I mean, just, just to add that in, uh, not in fear of like our, our inbox is being flooded, but if you're a robust person, just hit me up, hit Tony up. Like, uh, just like you want some advice, uh, I don't think we'll probably be inundated with, with messages. So if you're in that pickle, just hit us up.

Toni: Yeah, absolutely. Um, where can they find you? They can find you on LinkedIn, uh, role pro John. Um, and you know me obviously also on LinkedIn. But otherwise, ul, thank you so much for today. Everyone else, if you haven't already hit the subscribe button, helps us a lot to kind of grow the show. We like to see that.

And then, uh, see you next week everyone. Bye-bye.

Raul: Bye-bye.