Tea and Coffee

What is Hilchos Shabbos | Rabbi Meir Finkelstein (Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh)?

Shiurim by Rabbi Meir Finkelstein in KBY.

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Ready on Romo? Let's go. רבותי Raboisai tonight's שיעור shiur is all about tea and coffee. Can you make tea on שבת Shabbos? Can you make coffee on שבת Shabbos? Different types of tea, different coffees. What ברכה beracha? What about hot chocolate? Hot chocolate, I said what ברכה beracha you're going to have to come back next month, but hot chocolate, okay, hot chocolate, I don't know actually. Hot chocolate is a good question. At the end of the שיעור shiur so ask me that question again. At the end of the שיעור shiur you can ask me that question again. So let's start with tea and then we will talk about coffee. This is a hopefully going to be a very gratifying finale to everything we've been learning for the last many, many months. You'll see in the course of our discussion how you needed to know so many things to address these שאלות shailos, but now that we know them, we'll be able to move through them relatively quickly. We also are nearing the end of הלכות בישול Hilchos Bishul, which is a remarkable accomplishment. I'd love to finish before פסח Pesach. Basically we have three topics left including today and two שיעורים shiurim left including today. So if we can somehow finagle, if guys ever want to wiggle in one final שיעור shiur in between then we could definitely, we should be able to finish before פסח Pesach. Other than that it would be kind of like an awkward like welcome back from קיץ זמן kayitz zman one שיעור shiur left in הלכות בישול Hilchos Bishul. So you can let me know, we'll try to find time for one bonus round חוג chug. But for now, so let us talk about tea and coffee. So we start tonight with רב חיים Rav Chaim. What could be better than starting with רב חיים Rav Chaim? רב חיים Rav Chaim believe it or not has a קולא kula. רב חיים Rav Chaim says it's מותר mutar to make tea in a כלי שני kli sheni. First what's the issue? I'm way ahead of myself. What's the issue? Why is this a בישול bishul שאלה shaila? So רבותי raboisai the way you make tea is with something called tea leaves. When you put tea leaves into hot water you cook them. That's בישול bishul. So it is a דבר פשוט davar pashut that if you would take a tea bag, right, those tea bags that have tea leaves inside them, right, if you're as ignorant as I am about food these things might be a חידוש chidush to you, if you're not so then you know bear with me. But when you open that tea bag, like when we say like there's tea inside the tea bag that's tea leaves and we'll have to talk בורר borer a different time. And if you put the tea in a כלי ראשון kli rishon so then you would have a violation of בישול bishul on שבת Shabbos. Fine. רב חיים Rav Chaim says you're allowed to make tea in a כלי שני kli sheni. So all your problems are really solved because you're never really going to have a scenario where you're making tea in a כלי ראשון kli rishon. Right? You're going to take the kettle off the fire and put a tea bag inside? No. You're going to take a cup from your urn, you're going to pour the water from the urn into a cup. Good. You have a כלי שני kli sheni. Put the tea bag in the כלי שני kli sheni you are good to go says רב חיים Rav Chaim. One second it's בישול bishul. And בישול bishul applies not only in a כלי ראשון kli rishon but also in a כלי שני kli sheni because we are חושש choshesh that everything is included in קלי הבישול kalei habishul with the exception of מים mayim שמן shemen and תבלין tavlin. So says רב חיים Rav Chaim tea is תבלין tavlin. תבלין tavlin are spices. The משנה Mishna on דף מ\"ב עמוד ב' daf mem beis amud beis was very clear that תבלין tavlin does not cook in a כלי שני kli sheni. רב חיים Rav Chaim says tea is תבלין tavlin. What are tea leaves if not spices? They spice up your water right? So רב חיים Rav Chaim says that there's no problem of בישול bishul in a כלי שני kli sheni and הלכה למעשה halacha lema'aseh רב חיים Rav Chaim says you're allowed to make tea in a כלי שני kli sheni. However most people do not hold like that way. Why not? There is a תשובה teshuvah of the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim. This is in the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim אורח חיים Orach Chayim כלל ג' סימן ב' klal gimmel siman beis where the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim writes that the היתר heter of תבלין tavlin in a כלי שני kli sheni is only when the תבלין tavlin are you know כשמו כן הוא kishmo kein hu to spice up the food. Meaning you have your עיקר ikkar food and the spice is an addition on top of the עיקר ikkar food. When it comes to tea leaves though the spice is the food. It's you're cooking the tea leaves. That is the thing you're cooking. So the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim says in such a scenario you still have a מחזי כמבשל mechzi kimevashel concern. You might not have a קלי הבישול kalei habishul concern but you have a מחזי כמבשל mechzi kimevashel concern. Right? If you remember our two reasons that there's בישול bishul in a כלי שני kli sheni so one was קלי הבישול kalei habishul and the other one was תוספות Tosafos on ל\"ט lamed tes מחזי כמבשל mechzi kimevashel. So the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim says it still looks like cooking if the תבלין tavlin is the primary thing you're cooking. So according to that גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim we would not be able to make tea in a כלי שני kli sheni we'd still have an issue of מחזי כמבשל mechzi kimevashel. The משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah has a very long essay about making tea on שבת Shabbos I'll show it to you just we won't read the whole thing inside but you should see it where it is and if you have a chance to read it's כדאי kedai. It's in סימן שי\"ח סעיף קטן ל\"ט siman shin yud ches s'if katan lamed tes that's the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah all the way till there. Now that is long for a משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. If you're used to you know some of you have become used to looking at some long אחרונים achronim in morning סדר seder because you know for whatever reason that may be so then this would become short but By משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah standards that is a pretty long משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah and the essay is, I just closed it but the essay is how do you make tea on שבת Shabbos? משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah writes ועתה נבאר דין בישול עלי הט\"י ve'atah neva'er din bishul alei hates-yud-yud-alef which is tea, tea, right? How are you able to make tea on שבת Shabbos? Now the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah lays down a principle that I think is questionable, just at the beginning the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah writes הנה תה בשבת פשוט בפוסקים שיש בו משום בישול ובמזיד יש בו איסור סקילה ובשוגג חיוב חטאת ועל כן יש לזהר בו מאד ובעוונותינו הרבים רבים נכשלים בו ומקלים לעצמם בקולות שאין בהם ממש ועל כן מוכרח אני לבאר אופני ההיתר והאיסור בזה בעזרת השם יתברך hinei te b'Shabbos pashut b'poskim sheyeish bo mishum bishul u'vemazid yeish bo issur skilah u'veshogeg chiyuv chatas v'al ken yeish lizaher bo me'od u'va'avonoseinu harabim rabim nichshalim bo u'makilim l'atzman bekulos she'ein bahem mamash v'al ken muchrach ani l'va'er ofanei haheter v'ha'issur baze b'ezras Hashem yisbarach. That's the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah starts out. Now certainly a very important שאלה shaila that we have to take very seriously. I would just question the fact that the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says that you have a concern of a דאורייתא De'oraisa here because if the only reason there's בישול bishul on tea leaves is because of מחזי כמבשל me'achzi k'mevashel as the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim says, presumably that's a דרבנן Derabanan. So presumably the worst case scenario here is a דרבנן Derabanan, not a דאורייתא De'oraisa. That is I'm saying that as a question, not as of course, of course not being חולק cholek on the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah until we see a פוסק posek who makes the הערה ha'arah I just made, you know I'm not raising that as part of the equation, I'm just raising it as a question. So תכלס tachlis the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah does say you're dealing with an איסור דאורייתא issur De'oraisa and so we need to treat it as such, but just raising a question on the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah because based on the analysis from רב חיים Rav Chaim and the גינת ורדים Ginas Veradim it would assume that at worst you're dealing here with an איסור דרבנן issur Derabanan. Okay, that's just my question. Fine. So what does the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah say? How do you make tea on שבת Shabbos if you're not able to make tea just by putting the tea bag inside the cup of hot water whether it be a כלי ראשון kli rishon or a כלי שני kli sheni? So says the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah, what you have to do is you have to prepare the tea leaves from before שבת Shabbos. Meaning before שבת Shabbos cook the tea leaves or pour water on them, hot boiling water from a כלי ראשון kli rishon, and עירוי כלי ראשון irui kli rishon then will at least have the status of עירוי כלי ראשון irui kli rishon. We saw a מחלוקת רשב\"ם ורבינו תם machlokes Rashbam v'Rabbeinu Tam what that status is, but then if you on שבת Shabbos put those tea leaves in a cup and do עירוי כלי ראשון irui kli rishon on them, it certainly would be אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul. משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah does say that if you're going to do עירוי irui on them from before שבת Shabbos you should mix around the tea leaves very well to make sure that the עירוי irui gets on everything, but simpler would just be to actually cook the tea leaves from before שבת Shabbos and then they're cooked. And then when you put the tea leaves, I'll take a question in a minute, then when you put the tea leaves in the water on שבת Shabbos, אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul, right? The tea leaves are a דבר יבש davar yavesh, they're already cooked before שבת Shabbos, אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul and that solves all the problems. Now the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says that there's something called tea essence. Right, what is tea essence? Tea essence is the liquid, right, when you cook the tea leaves so the liquid that now has absorbed the taste of the tea leaves is the, is what we call tea essence. In Hebrew that is spelled עסינס essens if you're interested, the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah talks about the essence. And so the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says you need to take out the essence because the essence is a דבר לח davar lach. So if you would leave the essence in together with the tea leaves from when you cooked it before שבת Shabbos and then you let it cool down and you're going to use it on שבת Shabbos and now you're going to pour hot water into the tea leaves with the essence on שבת Shabbos, then it's going to be בישול אחר בישול בלח bishul achar bishul b'lach because your essence is a דבר לח davar lach and that would be a problem. So the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says you have to remove the essence. So what but what can you do, the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says? So now what you have is your so you have your cooked tea leaves, right, if you're following, so before שבת Shabbos you cooked the tea leaves and you removed the essence. So let's say now you have your your pot of tea leaves, your pot of essence, and now it's you know let's say twenty-four hours later because it's שבת Shabbos afternoon, you want your cup of tea. So it's all cold. So how are you going to make this into a cup of hot tea? So you're going to take a cup of hot water and what you're going to do is you can put the tea leaves into that cup of hot water because אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul, tea leaves were already cooked. Then the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says you can pour the water onto the essence. Why? So here's an interesting נקודה nekudah the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah, משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says that the חומרא humra of בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנתצנן bishul achar bishul b'davar lach shenitztanen does not apply in a כלי שני kli sheni. So if you're pouring the hot water into the essence and it's all in a כלי שני kli sheni, so even though the essence is liquid that has cooled down and there's a מחמיר machmir יש בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנתצנן yeish bishul achar bishul b'davar lach shenitztanen, משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says you only have to be מחמיר machmir on בישול אחר בישול בלח שנתצנן bishul achar bishul b'lach shenitztanen when you're dealing with a כלי ראשון kli rishon. When you're dealing with a כלי שני kli sheni you can assume אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul even בדבר לח b'davar lach. That's the, that's what the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says. The משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* then says if a person before שבת *Shabbos* cooked the tea leaves by doing עירוי *iruy*, not by actual cooking, so you would need to do עירוי *iruy* on שבת *Shabbos*. You wouldn't be able to put the tea leaves soak them in the hot water because עירוי *iruy* might have the status of כלי שני *kli sheni* and cooking certainly has the status of כלי *kli*. Fine, that's how the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says to make tea on שבת *Shabbos*. Now, just one הערה *ha'arah* and then we'll go further in the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah*. One הערה *ha'arah* is this נקודה *nekudah* that the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says that you don't need to be מחמיר *machmir* on בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach shenitztaen* in a כלי שני *kli sheni*. So I wonder, this is on the list of questions we have to ask Rabbi Willig, right? If you remember there was a מחלוקת *machlokes* between the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* and Rabbi Willig about how to understand the רמ\"א *Rama's* שיטה *sheitah* about בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach shenitztaen*. The משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* held that that was a חומרא *chumra*. Fundamentally, we hold אין בישול אחר בישול *ein bishul achar bishul* even בדבר לח *bidavar lach*. We're מחמיר *machmir* to be חושש *choshesh* for the שיטות *sheitos* that יש בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח *yesh bishul achar bishul bidavar lach*. And Rabbi Willig thought no, it's מעיקר הדין *me'ikar ha'din* that we assume יש בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן *yesh bishul achar bishul bidavar lach shenitztaen*. Remember more or less vaguely our discussion? So and the נפקא מינא *nafka mina* for the drops, which we'll come back to in today's שיעור *shiur*. So I wonder if the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* is saying you don't need to be מחמיר *machmir* on בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach shenitztaen* is לשיטתו *leshitaso* that בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach* is already a חומרא *chumra*. But if you assume like Rabbi Willig that בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach* is a real דין *din*, maybe you wouldn't have that קולא *kula* and you wouldn't be able to be מקיל *mekil* in a כלי שני *kli sheni*. That's an important הערה *ha'arah* to keep in mind in just a moment. The משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* then writes there's an even better way to make tea on שבת *Shabbos*. He says an even better way or before שבת *Shabbos* to prepare the tea from before שבת *Shabbos* to be able to make tea on שבת *Shabbos*. משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says an even better way is to completely prepare the tea essence from before שבת *Shabbos* and not even need to use the tea leaves at all on שבת *Shabbos*. Get rid of the tea leaves, just have tea essence that already is flavored water which tastes like tea from before שבת *Shabbos*. And then on שבת *Shabbos*, put that tea essence into a hot כלי שני *kli sheni* because like we just said, you don't need to be מחמיר *machmir* on בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach* when it comes to a כלי שני *kli sheni*. Then the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says a third way to do it. The משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says the third and best way to do it is to keep the tea essence hot and never let it get cold. Then you don't need to rely on the קולא *kula* of בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן *bishul achar bishul bidavar lach shenitztaen* in a כלי שני *kli sheni* and you're יוצא כל הדעות *yotzei kol ha'deios* that way, says the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah*. Now what's the reason that the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* has, so if you're following again there were three עצות *eitzos* here. משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* עצה *eitza* number one was to prepare the tea leaves with the tea essence and then put it all together. עצה *eitza* number two was get rid of the tea leaves, just have tea essence. עצה *eitza* number three was just have tea essence but keep it hot. That was the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah's* three steps. Why did he switch from one to two? What's the problem with having the tea leaves? So the שער הציון *Sha'ar Tzion* in סימן קטן ס\"ג *siman katan samech gimmel* explains that the problem with the first solution is if you're going to do עירוי *iruy*, so maybe עירוי *iruy* is only מבשל כדי קליפה *mevashel kidei klipa* and it's not מבשל בכולו *mevashel bekulo*. And maybe some part of it didn't get cooked when you did your עירוי *iruy*. And then the שער הציון *Sha'ar Tzion* writes that there's a ספר *sefer* called פתחי תשובה החדש *Piskei Teshuva Hachadash* which has a קשיא *kashya* that he doesn't quote. He says the פתחי תשובה החדש *Piskei Teshuva Hachadash* was מפקפק *mepakpek* on the first way and he doesn't quote what the קשיא *kashya* was. And then he says that עירוי *iruy* maybe there's something lacking in the cooking process of עירוי *iruy* and then when you actually put it in the cup on שבת *Shabbos* you're going to be cooking more. So the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* is not, that's why the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* is not happy with the first עצה *eitza* of doing עירוי *iruy* on the tea leaves. But the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* does say that we shouldn't be מוחה *mocheh* against people who do like the first way. Okay, fine. That's the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah's* שיטה *sheitah*. Now practically, so הלכה למעשה *halacha l'maiseh*, if you wanted to follow the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah*, so what would you do in order to make tea on שבת *Shabbos*? So you'd prepare tea essence, right? You'd boil the tea leaves from before שבת *Shabbos*. Now you have tea essence. And now you put that in the fridge on Friday. And now when you want your cup of tea, so take a cup of hot water from the urn. Now that's a כלי שני *kli sheni*. Put the essence inside. Great. Now you have אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן *ein bishul achar bishul bidavar lach shenitztaen*. So you have your tea. That would be a way to make tea for the משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* on שבת *Shabbos*. משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says it's preferable even to keep the essence hot all שבת *Shabbos*. But if you can't do that, it'd be very hard to do that, keep it on the hot tray, but if it's impractical to do that, so then משנה ברורה *Mishnah Berurah* says not to be מוחה *mocheh* against relying on the. the first way he suggested. I would just point out that, like we pointed out a second ago, if you hold like Rabbi Willig, so I'm not sure, we have to ask him. I'm not 100% sure about this, but if you hold like Rabbi Willig, it could be the only way to make tea on שבת Shabbos is to keep the essence hot all שבת Shabbos, because if the קולא kula of בישול אחר בישול בלח שנתצנן bishul achar bishul belach she'nitzanen in a כלי שני kli sheni does not apply if you hold like Rabbi Willig, so then if the essence got cold, you'd be stuck and you'd need to have the essence hot the whole שבת Shabbos. I once—my father asked me this, was a few years ago at this point, my father wasn't feeling well one שבת Shabbos, so on Friday he wanted to be able to have tea on שבת Shabbos. My father is a תלמיד talmid of Rabbi Willig, so my father, I don't know if he called me or I was home or whatever, but he said to me before שבת Shabbos, is there any way according to Rabbi Willig I can make a cup of tea on שבת Shabbos? So I said, yeah, you keep the essence hot all שבת Shabbos. He said, it doesn't work. It's not—even if you keep the tea essence on the hot tray, it doesn't really do it. Like it doesn't stay good. I don't know why, but it doesn't stay good. So it gets dried out or whatever, it doesn't stay good. So למעשה lema'aseh he didn't have tea on שבת Shabbos. I don't know, we have to ask Rabbi Willig. I just don't know what Rabbi Willig would say about that. Another point here that the שער הציון Sha'ar Hatzion makes in סעיף קטן ס\"ח sif katan samech chet, just an interesting point. So the שער הציון Sha'ar Hatzion brings up a מלאכה melacha that, you know, we've been learning בישול bishul, but who knows when we'll finish בישול bishul, there are 38 other מלאכות melachos. So when we finish בישול bishul, we're going to have to decide which מלאכה melacha to go to next. But there is a מלאכה melacha called צובע tzoveya. So the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah writes something fascinating here in שער הציון סעיף קטן ס\"ח Sha'ar Hatzion sif katan samech chet and he says that it's better to pour the water into the essence and not the essence into the water because otherwise it's an איסור issur of צובע tzoveya. Meaning when you have the tea essence, so let's say, I don't know, you have red liquid, and let's say your tea was red, and you put it in clear water, you redden the water. So that's an איסור issur of צובע tzoveya, says the שער הציון Sha'ar Hatzion. Now what's not clear in the שער הציון Sha'ar Hatzion is why it's not צובע tzoveya if you do it in the reverse. Like why is putting the מים mayim, the water, into the essence better than putting the essence into the water? He doesn't explain that. Rabbi Wiederblank thought maybe the answer is a שינוי shinuy. And maybe that's why it's okay. But צובע tzoveya is an איסור דאורייתא issur de'oraisa. Why should a שינוי shinuy help? So Rabbi Wiederblank just made the הערה he'ara that this is all a big חומרה chumra to begin with. The משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah is clear elsewhere, if you take a look in סימן ש\"כ סעיף קטן נ\"ו siman shin chaf sif katan nun vav and also in the שער הציון Sha'ar Hatzion in our סימן siman, סימן שי\"ח סעיף קטן ס\"ד siman shin yud chet sif katan samech daled, the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah is clear that there's a principle called אין צביעה באוכלין ein tzviya be'ochlin, which means that צובע tzoveya doesn't apply to food. So the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah does assume that. So this is all a big חומרה chumra to begin with. So maybe if it's a big חומרה chumra to begin with, if you do a שינוי shinuy, so then that's what makes it מותר muttar according to the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. Just one הערה he'ara, you know, we are שלשים יום קודם החג shloshim yom kodem hachag, so even if we פסקן pasken that אין צביעה באוכלין ein tzviya be'ochlin like we just quoted from the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah, it is possible, and if we were learning צובע tzoveya we'd have to go into this a little more, but I'll make mention of it because it's almost פסח Pesach, it is possible that there is a case that we hold יש צביעה באוכלין yesh tzviya be'ochlin and that is if you care about the coloring. Right? When you make tea, you don't care that the water turns red. So that's why אין צביעה באוכלין ein tzviya be'ochlin. If you make Kool-Aid on שבת Shabbos, so you put the Kool-Aid powder in, you don't care about the color, so אין צביעה באוכלין ein tzviya be'ochlin. But there is a time when you do care about the color and that is if at the סדר Seder you mix red wine with white wine in order to make sure you have red wine. So that might be an איסור issur of צובע tzoveya because there you דוקא davka care about the color. Fine, that's the שיטה shita of the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. Any questions on the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah? So far we have two שיטות shitos about making tea on שבת Shabbos, there's רב חיים Rav Chaim, it's all מותר muttar in a כלי שני kli sheni and we have the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah about tea essence. Okay, שיטה shita number three, רב משה Rav Moshe. What do you think רב משה Rav Moshe holds? A catch-all היתר hetter, right? אין בישול בכלי שלישי ein bishul bikli shlishi, right? רב משה Rav Moshe says in אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק ד' סימן ע\"ד אות ט\"ו Iggros Moshe Orach Chayim chelek daled siman ayin daled ois tes vav, רב משה Rav Moshe says it's מותר muttar to make tea in a כלי שלישי kli shlishi. So we already learned the סוגיא sugya of כלי שלישי kli shlishi, we saw many, many disagree with רב משה Rav Moshe, there's no difference between a כלי שלישי kli shlishi and a כלי שני kli sheni, הדברים עתיקים hadvarim atikim, right, that's an old מחלוקת machlokes. Okay, what's the story with the droplets? Right, let's come back to that שאלה shaila. We spoke about you—so somehow you made your first cup of tea, either because you're so enamored by רב חיים Rav Chaim and you פסקן pasken that you can make tea in a כלי שני kli sheni, or you held like רב משה Rav Moshe and you make tea in a כלי שלישי kli shlishi, or you made tea essence. Fine, so you found a way to make tea on שבת Shabbos. So can you make your second cup of tea in the same cup? What about the residual droplets that were left from the first cup? So we saw many moons ago that Rav Moshe in אורח חיים Orach Chaim חלק ד Chelek Daled סימן עד Siman Ayin Daled אות ט Os Tes writes that you don't need to be concerned about בישול אחר בישול בלח bishul achar bishul belach in the droplets. Because Rav Moshe said בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח bishul achar bishul bidavar lach like the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah is a חומרא chumra. And since it's a חומרא chumra to begin with, you don't need to be so מחמיר machmir on droplets. That was what Rav Moshe said. We saw at the time that Rav Willig in the עם מרדכי Am Mordechai on שבת Shabbos סימן ט Siman Tes אות ח Os Ches דיבור המתחיל וכן כתב Dibur Hamaskil Vechein Kasav says I don't like Rav Moshe's reasoning because Rav Willig thought that בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח bishul achar bishul bidavar lach is an עיקר הדין ikkar hadin. So Rav Willig as we saw at the time said that there are many other צדדים tzadim to be מיקל meikel on this שאלה shayla ואין כאן מקום להאריך ve'ein kan makom le'ha'arich and he didn't explain what the צדדים tzadim are. So Rabbi Wiederblank suggested five צדדים tzadim to be מיקל meikel on this שאלה shayla of the droplets. Tzad number one is that it's a פסיק רישא דלא ניחא ליה psik reisha d'lo nicha lei. Right? When I pour what I have a cup with tiny little droplets in it, when I pour hot water into that cup, am I intending to cook the droplets? No, I don't really care about cooking the droplets, I just want hot water in the cup. There are a couple of cold tiny little droplets there, it's not going to matter. So it's a פסיק רישא דלא ניחא ליה psik reisha d'lo nicha lei. Now a פסיק רישא דלא ניחא ליה psik reisha d'lo nicha lei is not מותר mutar, but a פסיק רישא דלא ניחא ליה psik reisha d'lo nicha lei is only אסור מדרבנן assur mid'rabbanan, so it's a סניף snif, right? It gets us started as if we can be מצטרף mistaref it with other things, it can be something that will bring in for the mix to be מיקל meikel, but as for starters, it's a פסיק רישא דלא ניחא ליה psik reisha d'lo nicha lei. Now the problem is that's not so פשוט pashut because is it really לא ניחא ליה lo nicha lei? You don't want cold droplets in your cup of tea. Maybe it's ניחא ליה nicha lei, you want to cook it. Why would you want cold liquid in your hot cup of tea? So it's not so פשוט pashut that that's לא ניחא ליה lo nicha lei. If it's ניחא ליה nicha lei, it's a דאורייתא d'oraisa, so different story. Okay, that's number one. Tzad number two is there is a רמ\"א Rama in סימן שיח Siman Shin Yud Ches סעיף ד Seif Daled and also the שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch in סימן שיח Siman Shin Yud Ches סעיף ט Seif Tes quotes something very interesting from רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham that the שיטה shitta of רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham is that בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח bishul achar bishul bidavar lach is only if it is מצטמק ויפה לו mistamek veyafeh lo. But if it's מצטמק ורע לו mistamek vera lo, so then אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח ein bishul achar bishul bidavar lach. That's the שיטה shitta of רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham. Now the גמרא Gemara on דף לח עמוד א daf lamed ches amud aleph says מים mayim is always מצטמק ורע לו mistamek vera lo. Right? What does מצטמק ויפה לו מצטמק ורע לו mistamek veyafeh lo mistamek vera lo mean? Right? If it dries more, if it shrivels up more on the fire, is that beneficial or is that detrimental? So for water, water remaining on the fire and and not drying, but I guess evaporating, it would be that's מצטמק ורע לו mistamek vera lo, there's nothing no benefit being added to the water the longer it stays on the fire. So the גמרא Gemara says it's already a גמרא Gemara, מים mayim is always מצטמק ורע לו mistamek vera lo. So if that's the case according to this רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham, the whole principle of בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח bishul achar bishul bidavar lach should not apply to מים mayim. So that would be a big קולא kula. However, the reason that this is not an iron clad קולא kula, I'll take your question in a second Shai, the reason this is not an iron clad קולא kula is because the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah סעיף קטן סב Sif Katan Samech Beis writes that we don't פוסקן pasken like רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham. And also, this is something that we didn't go into in our שיעורים shiurim but is just an important factor, there is a question whether cooking on water, whether the גדר האיסור geder ha'issur is בישול bishul or חימום chimum. It could be that the גדר האיסור geder ha'issur is not בישול bishul rather it's חימום chimum. That it relates to something we did discuss, if you remember we saw the רמב\"ם Rambam says that if you cook something that can be eaten raw, there's no בישול דאורייתא bishul d'oraisa, but the רמב\"ם Rambam said there's בישול דאורייתא bishul d'oraisa on water. So we were bothered by that סתירה stira. So at the time we answered the שער הציון Sha'ar Hatzion, that was how we explained at the time. Another approach to explaining it which we didn't go into because it was far afield for us is, it could be the מחייב mechayev of cooking water is not regular בישול bishul rather it's חימום chimum and so water doesn't fit into the regular בישול bishul categories. And so then רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham wouldn't apply. So that's the counter-pressure on that סברא svara. Tzad number three to be מיקל meikel on this שאלה shayla is there is a רשב\"א Rashba on דף מב עמוד א daf mem beis amud aleph דיבור המתחיל בדבר Dibur Hamaskil Bidavar מסכת שבת masechet shabbos where the רשב\"א Rashba says that עירוי iruy onto a דבר לח davar lach is not מבשל mevashel. Right? Even if עירוי iruy is מבשל mevashel, if you're pouring onto a liquid, then עירוי iruy is not מבשל mevashel. The logic is when you pour onto a liquid everything merges together, so everything is constantly in motion so there's no moment of cooking. Tzad number four is what about all the ראשונים rishonim who hold אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח ein bishul achar bishul bidavar lach ever? Right? There are a lot of ראשונים rishonim out there who hold אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח ein bishul achar bishul bidavar lach. We're not just going to dismiss all those ראשונים rishonim. And tzad number five is an interesting idea which maybe we'll see later on also in the context of coffee which is there's a fascinating שבלי הלקט Shibolei HaLeket which holds listen carefully: if you have ביטול bittul before you have בישול bishul you don't violate בישול bishul. Meaning if the thing that you're cooking becomes בטל battel to the rest of the mixture before it cooks then you don't violate cooking. So here if your tiny little droplets get absorbed in the larger cup of tea and they're בטל battel to the whole cup of tea then you can't have an So Rebbi Weiderblank presented those as five potential צדדים tzdadim to be מיקל meikel on this שאלה shayla, but in the end he says since Rebbi Willig didn't give a clear מסקנה maskana we still need to ask Rebbi Willig הלכה למעשה halacha l'maisa what is the דין din in this case. We'll add that as well to the list of questions. I hope someone's keeping track. I'll add that to the list of questions we one day need to ask Rebbi Willig as well. Okay, that is the story with tea. Before we go to coffee. Yes, Shai. How is cooking it with other hot water instead of saying you're adding water, meaning you're making it more wet? It's not drying out because you're adding water. No, but water as an entity is מצטמק ורע לו mustamig v'ra'alo. Water definitionally is מצטמק ורע לו mustamig v'ra'alo. What do you mean? You're heating up this water. I have droplets, I have droplets of water in cup number one. I take cup number two and I pour it into cup number one. Right. So the droplets are מצטמק ורע לו mustamig v'ra'alo. If they would, the longer they would stay on the fire after they've already boiled is not contributing anything to them. When you heat it up with a fire it evaporates, but when you heat it up with water you've made it more wet. No, the point, again the point is, point is not right now am I doing something to add to it. The point is that if once this water reaches cooking threshold, if I would leave it in that state further, would it be improving or not? So the answer is water would not be improving, right? So that's מצטמק ורע לו mustamig v'ra'alo. So אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח ein bishul achar bishul b'davar lach שמצטמק ורע לו she'mustamig v'ra'alo as a definition, definitionally מצטמק ורע לו mustamig v'ra'alo. No? Makes sense? Doesn't make sense? If you heat it up in a way that's not מצטמק mustamig why should that apply? I'm trying to think, sure I think I understand what you're asking. I'm just not sure it should make a difference. You're saying I pour hot water onto these droplets. So therefore I am bolstering the liquidiness, if that's even true. I don't know, is that true that that's what happens when you pour onto droplets? I can't imagine that's true. The heat is what cooks, not the water. Right? No? Where are our chemistry experts? I mean, no, heat cooks, water doesn't cook. No? It's the heat inside the water. So the water would, the more heat you would apply to this water, the worse it would be for the water. No? The reason you have a sum total of more water is because you're adding more water, not because these droplets are growing. Right? So that's מצטמק ורע לו mustamig v'ra'alo. בסדר Beseder. Any other questions on tea before we move on to coffee? Okay, coffee. I think we all could use some coffee right now. So let's figure out, let's figure out what's the story with coffee. So there are many different types of coffee and they're not all created equal. So let's figure out. Regular coffee: are you allowed to make regular coffee on שבת Shabbos? The answer is no. That's an absolute איסור issur. To pour hot water on coffee beans on שבת Shabbos, you're cooking the coffee beans. Coffee beans are, that's בישול ממש bishul mamash. If you hold like רבי משה Rebbi Moshe, you could use a כלי שלישי kli shlishi. If you hold like רבי משה Rebbi Moshe so you could pour water from a כלי שלישי kli shlishi onto the coffee beans. That's if you hold like רבי משה Rebbi Moshe. If you don't hold like רבי משה Rebbi Moshe though, so then there's no way you're going to be allowed to make regular coffee on שבת Shabbos because you're cooking the coffee beans. Only the beans? What about instant coffee? I haven't gotten to instant coffee yet. That's regular coffee. Ah, what's the story with instant coffee? What's the story with instant coffee? So instant coffee is like this. What makes instant coffee different is that it's already cooked. The powder that you use to make instant coffee has already been cooked. So therefore it should לכאורה lichora be מותר mutar because אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul. However, the tricky thing with instant coffee, the reason it becomes a tricky שאלה shayla is because of the following. When you put the powder into your hot water it dissolves. So it started as a solid but it dissolved into a liquid. So is that אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר יבש ein bishul achar bishul b'davar yavesh or is that יש בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח yesh bishul achar bishul b'davar lach? What is the status, and this is something we haven't discussed yet but some guys have asked it a number of times and now we're going to discuss it, what is the status of a solid which liquefies on the fire? Does that have the דין din of a דבר יבש davar yavesh לעניין l'inyan בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul or does that have the דין din of a דבר לח davar lach לעניין l'inyan בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul? So take a look if you have a שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch in front of you in סימן שיח סעיף טז Siman Shin Yud Ches Seif Tes Zayin. שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch writes סימן שיח סעיף טז Siman Shin Yud Ches Seif Tes Zayin. מותר ליתן אינפנאדה Mutar litein infanada כנגד האש keneged ha'esh במקום שהיד סולדת bimkom shehayad soledes. There is this food called An אינפנאדא Inpanada. What is an אינפנאדא Inpanada? Think like a type of calzone, like a fatty calzone. אינפנאדא Inpanada. So yeah, an אינפנאדא Inpanada. Fine. So you're allowed to put an אינפנאדא Inpanada next to the fire in a place that's יד סולדת yad soledet ואף על פי שהשומן שבו שנקרש חוזר ונימוח v'af al pi she'hashuman she'bo she'nikrash chozer v'nimoch, even though the the fat is going to the congealed fat is going to liquefy. Nevertheless it's מותר mutar to put on the fire. Now there's a little bit of a דיון diyun in this line of the שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch. The לבוש Levush, quoted by the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham in סעיף קטן מ' sif katan mem, says that you need to change the גירסא girsa here. Don't read this as כנגד האש במקום שהיד סולדת keneged ha-esh b'makom she'hayad soledet אלא ella, rather you should read it כנגד האש במקום שאין היד סולדת keneged ha-esh b'makom she'ein hayad soledet. You're only allowed to heat up this אינפנאדא Inpanada where it's not יד סולדת yad soledet. But if it would be יד סולדת yad soledet, that'd be בישול bishul, says the לבוש Levush. The מגן אברהם Magen Avraham there, סעיף קטן מ' sif katan mem, and the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah in סעיף קטן ק' sif katan kuf say no, we accept our גירסא girsa in שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch that you're allowed to put it במקום שהיד סולדת b'makom she'hayad soledet. Why? Because since it starts out as a solid, there's no בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul even though it liquefies. And that's the rule according to the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham and the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. A solid that liquefies on the fire, you go בתר מעיקרא batar me'ikara, right? You go how it started, and the דין din it has the דין din of a solid. That is what seems clear from the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham and the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. Say question in a minute. However, what's problematic is another משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. There's another משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah in סעיף קטן ע\"א sif katan ayin aleph where the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says that he has a whole discussion about salt, and he says that there is a חומרה chumra to not put salt in a כלי ראשון kli rishon even though the salt was already cooked. משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says בפירוש b'ferush. He writes סעיף קטן ע\"א sif katan ayin aleph: אבל מלח שעושים ממים שמבשלים אותם אין בו משום בישול לכולי עלמא דאין בישול אחר בישול aval melach she'osim mi'mayim she'mevashlin osam ein bo mishum bishul l'kuli alma d'ein bishul achar bishul. Then he says: ויש מפקפקים בזה והטוב להיזהר מכלי ראשון לכתחילה v'yesh mefakpekin b'zeh v'hatov lizhaher mi'kli rishon l'chatchila. So what could be the problem? If the salt was already cooked, then what could possibly be the problem with putting it in a כלי ראשון kli rishon? I thought the rule was אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul. So רב משה Rav Moshe in אורח חיים חלק ד' סימן ע\"ד בישול אות ט\"ז Orach Chaim Chelek Daled Siman Ayin Daled Bishul Os Tes Zayin says it's a technical issue. The issue is that people didn't know the salt was already cooked, so it's like a מראית עין ma'arit ayin issue, but there's nothing fundamental here. That's what רב משה Rav Moshe says. However, רב ניסים קרליץ Rav Nissim Karelitz in the חוט שני חלק ב' פרק כ\"ט Chut Shani Chelek Bet Perek Chaf Tet the end of סעיף קטן י\"ז sif katan yud zayin says no, the what the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah is saying is that if a solid completely and totally liquefies, then you do have to be concern for בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul. The מגן אברהם Magen Avraham's היתר heter for a solid liquefying, treating that as אין בישול אחר בישול ein bishul achar bishul, it's only if it liquefies but not totally. It doesn't completely liquefy. It's still a little I don't know it's a little gloopy or a, but if something completely and totally liquefies, that would be a problem of בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח bishul achar bishul b'davar lach. What's the נפקא מינה nafka mina? Instant coffee. If you learn like רב משה Rav Moshe, רב משה Rav Moshe's תשובה tshuva is about instant coffee. He's dealing with the question, can you make instant coffee on שבת Shabbos? So if you learn like רב משה Rav Moshe, it should be מותר mutar to make instant coffee. If you learn like רב ניסים קרליץ Rav Nissim Karelitz, then you should be concerned with בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul when it comes to making instant coffee. However, the שער הציון Sha'ar Ha-tziyun in סעיף קטן צ\"ו sif katan tzadi vav sounds not like רב ניסים קרליץ Rav Nissim Karelitz because he writes that this חומרה chumra that the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah is saying, he coming from himself that he records in the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah, he's recording in the name of the מרדכי Mordechai is not relevant to our salt. It was only relevant to their type of salt, but our salt is different. So if you learn like רב ניסים קרליץ Rav Nissim Karelitz, like מאי שנא mai shna? Our salt dissolves just like their salt dissolves. So it sounds like there's some other reason to be מחמיר machmir דווקא davka on their salt and it wouldn't be relevant to us, which sounds like רב ניסים קרליץ Rav Nissim Karelitz's reason is not the reason. This is a little bit of a mystery, the bottom line of this משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah. The משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah himself as a bottom line is not מחמיר machmir in a כלי שני kli sheni because he he recognizes what he's saying is a חומרה chumra. Right? He says והטוב להיזהר מכלי ראשון לכתחילה v'hatov lizhaher mi'kli rishon l'chatchila. So even the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah is willing to be מתיר matir in a כלי שני kli sheni. In a כלי ראשון kli rishon, however, he is מחמיר machmir. Therefore, if you wanted to fully follow this חומרה chumra in this משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah, instant coffee it would follow is מותר mutar in a כלי שני kli sheni but should be avoided in a כלי ראשון kli rishon. There is another element here on the question of solids that liquefy on the fire. So there's a מגן אברהם Magen Avraham in סעיף קטן מ\"א sif katan mem aleph and it's also the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah in סעיף קטן ק\"ד sif katan kuf daled which make a surprising statement, and they say that congealed gravy has a problem of בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul. If you have congealed gravy, so and you put it on the fire and it's going to liquefy, בישול bishul... בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul problem. יש בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח Yesh bishul achar bishul b'davar lach. So one second, I don't understand. If it was congealed, it started as a solid. And the rule is from the ענפאנאדו Infanado, the rule is that a solid that liquefies on the fire is אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר יבש ein bishul achar bishul b'davar yavesh. So how exactly does that work out? So the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim in the אשל אברהם Eshel Avraham on that מגן אברהם Magen Avraham סעיף קטן Sif Katan מ\"א Mem-Aleph answers two answers. He says that the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham is only מיקל meikel when it comes to foods, but not when it comes to things that are not foods. So fat is a food. So solid fat that liquefies is נידון nidon like a דבר יבש davar yavesh. Gravy is not a food. So therefore when it liquefies you do have a concern of בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul. That's answer number one in the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim. I'm going to come back to that in just one moment. Answer number two in the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim is he makes a very interesting אוקימתא ukimta in the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham. He says when the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham says there's an איסור issur of בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul on gravy that congealed, what he actually meant was that you're dealing with congealed fat with liquid gravy next to it. So he was talking about actual liquid gravy. Not the congealed was not going on the gravy. Okay, that's an אוקימתא ukimta. That's a more difficult פשט pshat. What's the idea in this first פשט pshat in the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim? So I heard from my חברותא chavruta Rabbi Yoni Rabinovich, some of you might know. So he told me that he heard from רב שכטר Rav Schechter. I never heard this from רב שכטר Rav Schechter, at least I don't remember, but he said he heard from רב שכטר Rav Schechter the פשט pshat in this מגן אברהם Magen Avraham is that, and this makes a lot of sense and maybe this is what the first answer the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim is driving at, I'm not sure. But he said he heard from רב שכטר Rav Schechter the פשט pshat in this מגן אברהם Magen Avraham is it all depends on the status of the food at room temperature. If it's a solid at room temperature, it's a solid. If it's a liquid at room temperature, it's a liquid. So fat at room temperature is a solid. So that's why if it liquefies on the fire, it's still נידון nidon as a solid. But gravy at room temperature is a liquid. So it only solidifies when you put it in the fridge, you put it in the freezer, but at room temperature it's a liquid. So therefore that's why the מגן אברהם Magen Avraham is concerned for בישול אחר בישול bishul achar bishul in that case. הלכה למעשה Halacha L'maaseh when it comes to instant coffee, so רב משה Rav Moshe writes in that תשובה teshuva. Again, it's in אגרות משה Igros Moshe אורח חיים Orach Chaim חלק ד' Chelek Daled סימן ע\"ד Siman Ayin-Daled בישול אות ט\"ז Bishul Os Tes-Zayin. רב משה Rav Moshe writes that instant coffee is מותר mutar even in a כלי ראשון kli rishon. But he writes that for himself he has a personal חומרא chumra to only make instant coffee in a כלי שלישי kli shlishi. Rabbi Wiederblank thought that it's good to be מחמיר machmir for the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura concern about salt. To be מחמיר machmir for a כלי שני kli sheni. But once the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura himself was a חומרא chumra and it's hard to even explain the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura, you certainly don't need to be מחמיר machmir beyond where the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura himself was מחמיר machmir and there's no need to require a כלי שלישי kli shlishi and we could be מיקל meikel in a כלי שני kli sheni. מעיקרא דדינא Me'ikara d'dina it's מותר mutar even in a כלי ראשון kli rishon. But since we want to be concerned for the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura, do it in a כלי שני kli sheni. So הלכה למעשה Halacha L'maaseh best to make instant coffee in a כלי שני kli sheni, which is the usual case anyways, right? If you're taking a cup from the urn, that's already a כלי שני kli sheni. It would mean don't put your instant coffee inside the urn. Don't put your instant coffee inside the kettle which was on the fire. But in a כלי שני kli sheni it's מותר mutar to make instant coffee. There is however a discussion about another type of coffee. I'll pause for questions. Yeah, go ahead. Is there any difference between when you heat something up that's a solid and it turns into a liquid as opposed to putting a powder into a liquid that could technically maybe dissolve? Yeah, that's exactly instant coffee. It's a powder that would dissolve. So that's the question here. Would, is there any difference to something that's a solid that turns into a liquid? You're saying because it only turns into a liquid after it's dissolved plus the heat? once it's changing from heat once it just dissolves instead? necessarily need heat to dissolve? I hear. I'm not aware of the distinction. I hear. I'm not aware of פוסקים poskim making such a distinction but I hear. Isn't a מלאכה melacha defined as what the end product is? And because it's going to be liquid in the end is that not what we should consider? לאו דווקא Lav davka. It's a question. At what stage how do we assess the status? But לאו דווקא lav davka everything is always based on the end. Yeah, someone else have a question? No. Okay, is anyone familiar with something called Via coffee? No. V-I-A. Starbucks produces a type of instant coffee called Via coffee. Like syrup? What? No, that's the pup cup. So I am not a coffee drinker. I am not a coffee drinker so I don't know these things up close. I'm not בשיטה beshita not a coffee drinker, I just happen to not be a coffee drinker. Apparently Starbucks has this thing called Via coffee that what it essentially is, is it's instant coffee but mixed into the instant coffee is micro ground instant coffee that never was cooked. Right? So there is a part of this powder that never was cooked. So the problem is, now you have a real בישול שאלה Bishul Shailah because this is בישול ממש Bishul Mamash because this never was cooked, there's no בישול אחר בישול Bishul Achar Bishul here. So the שאלה Shailah is, is there any way that it would be מותר Mutar to make Via coffee on שבת Shabbos? What was that? ביטול בשישים Bittul Beshishim? Ah, so let's go. Exactly. So, so that's the first סברה Svara. Rabbi Wiederblank suggested two סברות להקל Svaros Lehakeil. סברה Svara number one, שייע Shaye is what you're talking about, there's a שבולי הלקט Shibbolei HaLeket in סימן פו Siman Pey-Vav that the שבולי הלקט Shibbolei HaLeket writes it's מותר Mutar to put salt into a hot food and you don't have to be concerned about בישול Bishul on the salt because the שבולי הלקט Shibbolei HaLeket says the salt is בטל Batul before it cooks, נתבטל קודם שנתבשל Nitbattel Kodem Shenitbashal. So if such a סברה Svara exists, so here too we should say that the, like שייע Shaye is suggesting, this micro ground instant coffee that was never cooked becomes בטל Batul before the cooking sets in. That was what Rabbi Wiederblank suggested, a very interesting סברה להקל Svara Lehakeil. Rabbi Wiederblank, however, pushed back on that for a number of reasons. Number one is the בית יוסף Beis Yosef in סימן שיח Siman Shin-Yud-Ches סעיף ט Seif Tes דיבור המתחיל וכתוב בשבולי הלקט Dibur HaMaschil Vechasav Beshibbolei HaLeket. It is on page תח Taf-Ches in the fancy תורס Tur's. And the רמ״א Rema there as well, סימן שיח Siman Shin-Yud-Ches סעיף ט Seif Tes bring down the שבולי הלקט Shibbolei HaLeket only as a היתר בדיעבד Heter Bedieved. You can't rely on the שבולי הלקט לכתחילה Shibbolei HaLeket Lechatchila. That's one point. The other point is, I'm not going to go into באריכות Ba'arichus, this is a much larger סוגיא Sugya, but there is a סוגיא Sugya called אין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה Ein Mevatlin Issur Lechatchila, right? So would that be relevant here? That is this a problem of being מבטל Mevatel something לכתחילה Lechatchila in order to make it מותר Mutar? And then there's another question in הלכות ביטול Hilchos Bittul, right? When one day you learn חולין Chullin or יורה דעה Yoreh Deah or פסחים Pesachim it comes up at the, whatever, really חולין סוגיא Chullin Sugya, you learn the דינים Dinim of ביטול Bittul. So there's a question, can two things that are both מותר Mutar at the present moment be מבטל Mevatel one another or is ביטול Bittul only a דין Din in something that's now אסור Assur and now מותר Mutar? So there's a question, can you even have ביטול Bittul now to begin with? So there are a lot of questions to contend with when it comes to the ביטול Bittul over here. The שבולי הלקט Shibbolei HaLeket is far from פשוט Pashut. That's point number one. A second potential היתר Heter that Rabbi Wiederblank suggested is based on the שיטה Shitta of רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham that we learned before about מצטמק ויפה לו Mitztamek Veyafeh Lo. So the full quote of that רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham is found in the בית יוסף Beis Yosef in סימן רנג Siman Reish-Nun-Gimmel סעיף ב Seif Beis דיבור המתחיל ומה שכתב רבינו כל זמן שהיא רותחת Dibur HaMaschil Uma Shekasav Rabbeinu Kol Zeman Shehi Rosachas. It is page סב Samech-Beis in the fancy תורס Tur's that רבינו ירוחם׳ס שיטה Rabbeinu Yerucham's Shitta is if you have something that is רוב Rov liquid and the liquid is מצטמק ויפה לו Mitztamek Veyafeh Lo, then there's a בישול אחר בישול Bishul Achar Bishul issue. Meaning רבינו ירוחם Rabbeinu Yerucham is saying if it's a מיעוט Miut of liquid, then you say אין בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח Ein Bishul Achar Bishul Bedavar Lach. If it's a רוב Rov liquid, then you say יש בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח Yesh Bishul Achar Bishul Bedavar Lach. That's רבינו ירוחם׳ס שיטה Rabbeinu Yerucham's Shitta. What's the logic in that שיטה Shitta? Why does that make sense, that why is it תלוי Taluy on רוב Rov? So רב צבי פסח פראנק Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank in the הר צבי Har Tzvi in אורח חיים Orach Chaim חלק א Chelek Aleph page רסג Reish-Samech-Gimmel explains a סברה Svara that's a very delicate סברה Svara and you need to test this very, very, very thoroughly, but in the thirty seconds that we're going to explain it, we're not going to do it justice, but if you know, keep this in the back of your mind when you learn שבת בעיון Shabbos Be'iyun and you're going to have to test this סברה Svara. רב צבי פסח פראנק Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank says that it's a דין Din in מלאכת שבת Meleches Shabbos that we're מגדיר Magdir the מלאכה Melacha based on the עיקר Ikkar and the טפל Tafel is בטל Batul to the עיקר Ikkar. So if you are cooking something that is רובו יבש Rubo Yavesh and מיעוטו לח Miuto Lach, the עיקר Ikkar is יבש Yavesh, the טפל Tafel is לח Lach, the גדר Geder of מלאכת שבת Meleches Shabbos only pertains to the עיקר Ikkar, not to the טפל Tafel, and so therefore you only do בישול Bishul on the עיקר Ikkar. Now that is a very, very דקה׳דיק Dakadek סברה Svara because you're going to have to figure out how that doesn't נגיע Nage'a every פסיק רישא Psik Reisha, every מלאכה שאינה צריכה לגופה Melacha She'eina Tzricha Legufa and you're going to have a lot to work on with that סברה Svara of רב צבי פסח פראנק Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, but know, hold on to it, it's an interesting סברה Svara and it's an interesting יסוד Yesod. But it's not פשוט Pashut, not פשוט Pashut we could rely on that היתר Heter. Rabbi Wiederblank pointed out a ראש Rosh in סימן יז Siman Yud-Zayin who is against that היתר Heter very clearly. The שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch in סימן שיח Siman Shin-Yud-Ches סעיף ט Seif Tes פסקנ׳ס Paskens like that ראש Rosh. So bottom line, Rabbi Wiederblank was not comfortable relying on those היתרים Heterim and so Rabbi Wiederblank said that he would rely on those היתרים Heterim only בצירוף Betziruf of a כלי שלישי Kli Shlishi. So Rabbi Wiederblank was comfortable saying that you can make Via coffee in a כלי שלישי Kli Shlishi because you could rely on those. But to rely on those היתרים heteirim alone without a כלי שלישי kli shlishi, he was not willing to be מקיל meikel. Fine. So that's regular coffee, that is instant coffee, and that is VIA coffee. And in the last 60 seconds that we have to just wrap up, one final שאלה shaila that comes up with making coffee is what Jonathan actually was alluding to in the beginning of the שיעור shiur. And this is, you know, we'll do a little bit outside of בישול bishul for the moment just because to wrap up coffee, and that is do you have to worry about בורר borer when you make coffee? Let's say you make coffee, let's say you're pouring hot water over coffee grinds, right, with one of those funnels, and the water is collecting the taste of the coffee grinds as it goes and funneling through and pouring down into your cup. So is that בורר borer? Because you're separating the water from the grinds, right, when the water gets mixed in with the grinds, so now you have a תערובת taaroves of water and coffee grinds, and then the water is separating out. So is that an issue of בורר borer? So you'll tell me it's אוכל מתוך פסולת ochel mitoch psolet, yeah, but it's בכלי b'kli. So is that a problem of בורר borer? So the משנה mishna in מסכת שבת דף קלט עמוד ב Masechet Shabbos daf kuf lamed tes amud beis has a very, very similar case. Not about coffee, but about wine. The משנה mishna has a case, let's say you have wine sediment that has some of the wine still attached to the sediment. The משנה mishna says you're allowed to pour water over that sediment to collect the wine that's stuck between the sediment and filter out into your כלי kli to have a cup of wine. Why is that not a בורר borer problem? You're separating the wine from the sediment. So the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura in סימן שיט siman shin yud tes, not שיח shin yud ches, but שיט siman shin yud tes, which is the בורר סימן borer siman, משנה ברורה Mishna Berura in סימן שיט siman shin yud tes סעיף קטן ל\"ג seif katan lamed gimmel explains because there is a principle in הלכות בורר hilchos borer, and if we ever have a chance to learn בורר borer together, so who knows, who knows where we're going from בישול bishul, but if we ever have a chance to learn בורר borer together, so the most fundamental, probably most fundamental principle in all of הלכות בורר hilchos borer is you only have בורר borer when there's a תערובת taaroves. You need to have a mixture, and then separating that mixture is בורר borer. But if you don't have a mixture, if I have this here and this here, that's not a תערובת taaroves. That's not בורר borer to separate them further. So now, one of the most difficult שאלות shailos in הלכות בורר hilchos borer is what's a תערובת taaroves? Is this a תערובת taaroves? This a תערובת taaroves? This a תערובת taaroves? How close do they have to be? Can this ever be a תערובת taaroves or are they too big to be a תערובת taaroves? That's one of the very difficult שאלות shailos in הלכות בורר hilchos borer, when do you ever have a תערובת taaroves? But that's the basic foundation, you need a תערובת taaroves, otherwise there's no בורר borer to be עוסק osek in. So the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura says the פשט pshat here is if in our case your starting point and ending point both did not have a תערובת taaroves, when you poured the water over the sediment it was just water, when it came out so it was water that has collected wine flavor, but you didn't start with a תערובת taaroves, so that's not איסור בורר issur borer. Even though along the way in the process there was a mixture that got created and separated, but since you started without a תערובת taaroves and ended without a תערובת taaroves, that is not a problem of בורר borer. So that is the exact analogue to the coffee grinds case, so there would be no בורר borer problem to pour the hot water over the coffee grinds, so if you do not have a בישול bishul problem, right, you need to first get around the בישול bishul problems like we discussed, but if you do not have a בישול bishul problem, it's מותר mutar to pour the water over the coffee grinds, there will be no issue of בורר borer. שכוייח shkoach. Rabbi, in a כלי שני kli sheini where you said it's מותר mutar to poke a tea bag, what about the tea bag itself?