Lead On Podcast

On this episode of the Lead On Podcast, Jeff Iorg, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Executive Committee, discusses the challenges and responsibilities of preaching on difficult subjects within the ministry. Overall, Iorg stressed the need for thoughtful engagement with challenging issues while maintaining a commitment to biblical truth and pastoral care.

Creators & Guests

Host
Jeff Iorg
President, SBC Executive Committee

What is Lead On Podcast?

Ready to hone your leadership skills and unlock your full potential? Tune in to the Lead On Podcast, where Jeff Iorg dives deep into Biblical leadership.

Hosted by SBC Executive Committee President Jeff Iorg, this dynamic podcast provides insight for seasoned executives, aspiring leaders, or those in ministry who are simply passionate about personal growth. The Lead On Podcast offers actionable, practical tips to help you navigate the complexities of ministry leadership in today's ever-changing world.

From effective communication and team building to strategic decision-making and fostering innovation, each episode is packed with valuable lessons and inspiring stories to empower you on your leadership journey.

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Jeff Iorg:

Welcome to the lead on podcast. This is Jeff Orch, the president of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, continuing our conversation about practical issues related to ministry leadership. That's what we do on this podcast. We talk about the daily work of ministry leaders. What it's like to pastor a church, be a youth pastor, teach at a school, serve in Vacation Bible School, teach your Sunday School class, be an elder, be a deacon, what it means to be involved in the ongoing work of ministry, particularly as we focus on our Baptist churches and what they're like.

Jeff Iorg:

Today I want to talk about preaching and teaching on difficult subjects. Preaching and Teaching on Difficult Subjects. Now, pastors and Bible teachers have an obligation and an opportunity to address difficult subjects. Now, the first question is, when do you address a difficult topic? Well, the first and easiest way to do it is to address a difficult topic when it comes up in your normal preaching or teaching responsibility.

Jeff Iorg:

So if you're a preacher, for example, and you announce a series of messages on a particular book or a section of a book of the Bible, then when you come to a difficult subject or difficult topic in the text that you've announced you're going to

Jeff Iorg:

be preaching from, it's very natural to preach on that difficult topic. Now, I said natural. I didn't say easy. Let me give you an example that happened to me a few years ago.

Jeff Iorg:

I had announced that I was going to preach through the Sermon on the Mount, and there is a particular part of the Sermon on

Jeff Iorg:

the Mount that addresses the issue of marriage and divorce. Well, I

Jeff Iorg:

came to that subject and the week that I was to preach on that text,

Jeff Iorg:

a couple in our church, fairly well known, announced that they were getting a divorce.

Jeff Iorg:

Now I'm faced with an interesting dilemma. Do I preach on divorce, or do I run the risk of people saying, oh,

Jeff Iorg:

you only preached on divorce because this happened in your church that week? Well, because I was in

Jeff Iorg:

the middle of a series of messages that I had announced weeks before and I had been preaching incrementally through the Sermon on the Mount, I decided to just keep preaching on the topic at hand and to preach it with a sensitivity to what was happening in our church, but not avoiding the difficult topic because of what was going on in that particular moment. So one of the easiest ways to preach on difficult topics or difficult subjects is when they simply come up in the text. You're preaching through books of the Bible or sections of books of the Bible, and a difficult topic comes up, just go ahead and preach on it. Now one of the reasons that I like this approach to preaching where you take books of the Bible or sections of books of the Bible and simply preach through them is because they will produce what I call a natural balance to your preaching. Listen.

Jeff Iorg:

Not every passage of scripture is controversial or difficult or hard to preach or teach. In fact, most passages are pretty straightforward about the normal and pressing issues of life, and that's what we need to be preaching and teaching on most of the time. So I like that kind of preaching because it balances out my preaching. Most of the time, I'm not gonna be preaching on difficult or controversial subjects, but when one does come up in the text, I'm willing to preach or teach

Jeff Iorg:

on it. So the first time that

Jeff Iorg:

you have the obligation and the opportunity to address a difficult subject is when it comes up naturally in the preaching or teaching ministry that you've announced or that you're that you're, using as your format. But there are times when you're not using that kind of format or when something happens that absolutely demands attention. And so, in those contexts, you need to address the difficult subject when you're ready and in the timely moment when it's needed, but not necessarily when you're pressured to do so. So there may be a time when you say, I need to preach a message on marriage or on divorce, or I need to preach a message on gender, or I need to or on creation, or I need to preach a message on something related to church fellowship or gossip or murmuring or undermining, of leadership or something like that. You may need to preach a message on that topic, but be sure that you do it when you're ready and when it's timely and not just when you feel pressured to do so either by your own emotional being upset or by someone else outside saying this is what you need to be doing.

Jeff Iorg:

Now, when you decide to address one of these difficult subjects, particularly when you decide to address it as a stand alone message or in a particular moment when you feel like you just have to stand up and say something, address the issue once and try to stand by that message, meaning that you don't have to repeat it over and over again.

Jeff Iorg:

I did this a number of years ago on the issue of same sex marriage. I

Jeff Iorg:

developed a message. I spent a good bit of time, researching it and and very carefully writing it. And when I delivered it, I made sure that I, had that message, both video and audio recorded so that it would be available going forward. After that, when people would ask me, well, you know, do you have a position on this, or what's your message on this, or why don't you preach on this more often? I would simply say, you know, I've already taken a stand on that and made a very clear statement about it, and the video is available to you, and the audio is available to you.

Jeff Iorg:

In that particular case, I even made a written manuscript available to people. And I didn't have to preach on it again because I had preached on it so substantially and worked so hard to make that available in different formats that it became sort

Jeff Iorg:

of a standard message on that issue for me. Not just on

Jeff Iorg:

same sex marriage, but on other issues like gender and identity and creation in in relation to gender gender and identity and things like that. You you say, well, these are pressing issues in our culture. They're going on all the time. I've gotta preach on them every Sunday. No.

Jeff Iorg:

You really don't. What you have to do is develop a really quality message on that subject and then use the technology available to us today to make that message available, both in printed word, in audio, and in video formats, and then say, I'm moving on to preach and teach on other things, but when that subject comes up, I can refer people clearly to a message on that subject that I've preached that I want them to understand where we stand on that issue. So speaking, preaching, teaching on a difficult subject does not mean, that you do it every week. It simply means that you do it in a timely fashion when you're ready to do it, not when you're pressured to do it, or when it comes up in the text and you do it even though sometimes, as I shared with you from my story, it can be challenging when that situation is presenting itself at

Jeff Iorg:

the very same time that you're deciding to preach about it. Now, as you've decided to preach and teach on

Jeff Iorg:

a general sub or on a difficult subject, let me give you some some ideas or some thoughts about how to do that well. Number 1. First of all, make sure that you do not use a public venue to deal with a private or a personal conflict. You don't wanna preach and teach on gossip just because you're mad somebody's gossiping about you. That that's really not what you wanna do.

Jeff Iorg:

You wanna make sure that you use preaching and teaching time to handle controversial or difficult issues, but not to handle private conflicts. Also, when you're preaching and teaching on these issues, try to focus on large issues, not necessarily solving or commenting on individual events. For example, it's better to preach about racism as a large issue that you want to address, and to, lay out a biblical response rather than preaching about specific incidents that may be occurring in the culture that may have racist motives or racist overtones or may even be racist actions. I'm not saying that you would never mention one of these or that you might not even be occasioned to preach because of one of these, but when you preach or teach on this issue, you wanna teach on the theme or the subject more broadly than just one individual

Jeff Iorg:

event. And then when you speak

Jeff Iorg:

on controversial or difficult issues, be sure that you speak about issues that the Bible actually addresses, being careful not to make rash applications or what I call exegetical leaps when you take a subject and try to make the Bible address that subject when the Bible may not really say anything about it. For example, I've I've been in context before where, companies laid off large numbers of people, and I've heard messages or studies that tried to make an exegetical leap from some certain bible verses to corporate practices of laying people off. Well, there certainly may be some moral or ethical issues at play in a mass layoff, but you gotta be really careful because you're not gonna find a particular verse of the Bible that addresses that particular issue. Same thing with issues like governmental funding or governmental programs. You have to be really careful that you don't make too clear of a connection when scripture doesn't necessarily speak specifically about that.

Jeff Iorg:

Well, you get the idea. We wanna speak about issues the Bible really addresses and being careful just because something is difficult or controversial doesn't mean we have to speak on it or that the Bible specifically addresses it. So just be careful about how you do that. Now, when you are preaching and teaching on difficult issues or controversial issues, remember a few other I a few other thoughts. Be measured in your comments.

Jeff Iorg:

In other words, don't make hyperbolic or exaggerated statements. This is the time when you you really wanna stick with the facts and be really clear about what you're trying to communicate. You don't wanna use overstatement or exaggeration or or or in any way make statements that that are factually, not true about the situation or designed to just create emotional response rather than really in, teach people about what needs to happen in the moment.

Jeff Iorg:

Also, when you're preaching and teaching on these difficult subjects, don't use hostile humor. Don't

Jeff Iorg:

make jokes at the expense of people or make sarcastic remarks about different people or their positions. Remember that even if you completely disagree with something, you can still present that side of the argument in a respectful way or in a way that acknowledges that there are people sitting in front of you who either heard or actually believe what you're saying and what you're confronting with what the Bible has to say. And then another thing you wanna be careful about is don't make what I call presumptive conclusions. In other words, don't offer some some perspective and jump to a conclusion or move to a conclusion that really is beyond your pay grade, alright, or beyond your capacity, in the moment. Now I I know this is a controversial one, and I wanna be careful here because it's it's emotionally loaded.

Jeff Iorg:

But when when there's something that happens in our culture that has a that has a a tragic component to it, like, for example, if someone, dies or if someone is killed, you wanna be really careful that you don't stand up and pronounce that it was a murder. Now it it may very well turn out to be a murder. There may be an arrest. There may be a trial. There may be a conviction.

Jeff Iorg:

And when that happens, then you can call it that. But just be careful that you don't presumptively say things are going to conclude a certain way when you when you really don't know if that's true or not. You may be able to say that someone was tragically killed, or you may say that someone lost their life in a way that was unfair or even tragic. But you wanna be careful that you don't go beyond that until you can really say with factual certainty that something else is true in that situation. So just be sure that you don't make presumptive conclusions when you're teaching and preaching about a controversial or difficult subject.

Jeff Iorg:

And then, continuing on with that, get your facts on these issues from reputable sources and document what you say. Look, social media is not a reputable source, and the Internet itself is not a reputable source, although the Internet may deliver to you information from reputable sources. And especially, when you are teaching or preaching on a controversial or difficult subject, document your sources, document the information that you're using, and be able to stand behind it conclusively without any doubt that what you're saying is factually true, factually accurate. So when you're preaching and teaching on difficult subjects, controversial subjects, don't make hyperbolic exaggerated statements or use hostile humor or sarcasm or in some way put people down or make fun of their position if it's different than yours. Don't draw presumptive conclusions.

Jeff Iorg:

Don't say something as a murder when it may not yet be established that it was. It may have been a tragic killing. It may be an an an unnecessary loss of life, but just be careful about that. And then get your facts from reputable sources. Document what you say.

Jeff Iorg:

Be sure that you're, making your case, in a way that really does have credibility. And then when you're doing all of that, I wanna want you to really seriously consider on a difficult subject or a controversial subject or a challenging subject, speaking from a manuscript. Now you may say, well, I don't really normally speak from a manuscript. Well, I

Jeff Iorg:

don't either. You may say, well, I

Jeff Iorg:

don't really wanna be tied down to a manuscript. Well, yes, you do. When you're speaking on a difficult or a controversial

Jeff Iorg:

subject, a manuscript can be very helpful.

Jeff Iorg:

Now remember that when you're writing a manuscript, it's not a term paper. It's not a formal document. It's not something for publication necessarily. It's an oral presentation. So you wanna write as if it sounds like you're talking, because when you're delivering this oral presentation from a manuscript, you're going to actually be talking.

Jeff Iorg:

And so you want it to sound like something that's gonna come in that format, not something that's written for a paper for an academic program or something in a classroom. So when you're writing a manuscript, you wanna write as if you're speaking, but you wanna use a manuscript for several different reasons when you're speaking about controversially difficult subjects. Number 1, a manuscript will help you be more precise with your words. It will help you to say

Jeff Iorg:

more closely and more clearly what you really mean. It will help you to be less likely to exaggerate, to let use less sarcasm, to use less pejorative language, and to say clearly and specifically, precisely, what you mean with your words. A manuscript will also help you avoid spontaneous comments that get you into trouble. Now, I've been preaching and teaching for, about 45 years, fairly consistently.

Jeff Iorg:

Standing up in front of people and preaching and teaching in all kinds of contexts. And I will tell you that the comments that have gotten me into trouble over the years have usually been what I call spontaneous combustion. Listen, just because you have a spontaneous thought in the moment while you're preaching and teaching does not always mean the Holy Spirit is prompting you to say what just flashed into your mind.

Jeff Iorg:

And my experience has been that when I have said things that caused me trouble, raised questions, caused conflict, were misunderstood, when I have made those kind

Jeff Iorg:

of comments, they have typically been spontaneous comments. Things that flashed into my mind in the moment, that I did not filter,

Jeff Iorg:

and that I spoke, and that I regretted. So, a manuscript will help you avoid spontaneous comments that get you into trouble. Another good reason though to use a manuscript is it will help you to say strongly

Jeff Iorg:

what you really intend to say. Another concern that I have when I speak about a controversial difficult subject is

Jeff Iorg:

that I will lose my confidence in the moment and that I will, if you will,

Jeff Iorg:

I will waffle. I will weasel out. I will not say what I really intended to say in the moment. And so when I have a manuscript and I can prepare that and I know carefully what I wanna say and I know precisely what I wanna say, I also know boldly

Jeff Iorg:

what I need to say. And when I develop those bold statements in a manuscript, I'm more confident that I'll actually say them in the moment as I need to. And then another good reason to

Jeff Iorg:

use a manuscript is it will allow others to read and comment on what you plan to say before

Jeff Iorg:

you actually say it. Now for years, I have used a reading team to read everything I write for publication in books and speaking team to help me to evaluate when I did decide to use a manuscript to speak on a difficult topic or a difficult subject. When I've used one

Jeff Iorg:

of these teams of people, I typically try to draw a cross on a cross section of people to do the reading. In other words, I I might have a pastor. I might have a student. I might have a teenager. I want to have some different people from different ethnic backgrounds or different racial backgrounds.

Jeff Iorg:

I want some different ages on my team of people that are reading. I wanna have 6, 8, 10 people that represent some varying perspectives to read something and evaluate it before I put it into print or before I speak it in in a message. Now when I send one of these out to someone and ask them to read it, I jokingly say, I want you to read this and mark it up, and your main goal is to keep me from being from saying or writing something stupid in public. Now, I know my wife says don't use the word stupid, but I can use it here on the podcast because we're all friends. What I'm saying is to my reading team or to my team that's evaluating a message before I preach it is, don't let me do something dumb.

Jeff Iorg:

Don't let me say something I'll regret. Don't let me say something that's not accurate. Don't let me say something that's confusing, that's only going to cause, me more problems than not saying something at all. And when I have one of these groups read something, I don't necessarily ask them to edit my paper and tell me what to say, although sometimes they'll give me some suggestions. What I ask them to do is redline the things that cause them heartburn, cause them questions, or raise issues that they think I'm not resolving appropriately so that I can see where the hot spots are in this message that need to be reworked or in the case of a written document, the

Jeff Iorg:

hot spots are in the chapter or the book that I'm working on. When you have others read and comment on

Jeff Iorg:

what you plan to say, it will help you to sharpen significantly your message and to be sure that you're communicating what you really wanna get out there in the message. Now this has been so helpful to me in having different people from different backgrounds read things. You know, a a a 20 something year old woman reads something differently than a 65 year old man. An African American leader sees things differently than a Korean leader. When you have different people read something and give you honest reflection about it, then you're going to be able to shape your message so that it really communicates clearly to the most people that you that you're trying to impact with what you're saying.

Jeff Iorg:

And then one final reason to use a manuscript is it gives you a resource to give to people in the future. A few years ago at Gateway, I started manuscripting all of my presidential convocation messages and working really hard on those to address really significant issues that were in the moment I thought what needed to be heard. And in addressing those issues, I was able to create a manuscript that then could stand the test of time, if you will. So that we then developed a catalog of topics that I had spoken about, And when they came up, we

Jeff Iorg:

could simply refer people to those messages. So

Jeff Iorg:

getting this kind of manuscript is so helpful for you because when you're a pastor or a preacher or a teacher, you can't address these issues every other week or every time they come up in the culture, but if you've if you've addressed them and you've put it together in a good manuscript and you've got that into a printed form, you can hand people or you can post it on a website, it's just as good to do that as it is to post an audio recording or a video recording because it gives people another venue who access this important information. So, these are some reasons why I think using a manuscript when you preach or teach on a difficult subject is really helpful. Now, in developing your manuscript, let's talk for a moment about using the bible and theological concepts, to communicate more clearly. First of all, when it comes to using the bible in a manuscript like this, don't weaponize scripture. Use the Bible and use it appropriately, but don't use it to hammer people or to say things that you wanna say that really aren't the best use of that

Jeff Iorg:

text. For example, there are

Jeff Iorg:

a number of passages in the bible about God's judgment, and declaring a message of judgment is one of the responsibilities of a preacher, a teacher. When we come to those things in the text or when God's judgment specifically speaks about something that's going on

Jeff Iorg:

in the culture, we have a responsibility to use those passages and use them well. But be careful that you don't make those passages about God's judgment

Jeff Iorg:

apply in situations where they really aren't, pertinent or that you don't use them in ways that really weaponize the passages to harm people rather than to help. And as a part of this also, you wanna be careful that you don't proof text scripture when you're speaking on a difficult or controversial subject. Even a phrase in the Bible like love one another can be misused and can be twisted to mean something that is beyond what it really means in the text. So don't weaponize scripture, don't proof text scripture. And finally, don't make presumptive applications of scripture, taking it to places where it was never intended to apply.

Jeff Iorg:

Now most of you won't do this because you wanna use the Bible accurately and authoritatively to let it speak in its context about what it addresses. That's perfectly appropriate. Don't mishear me. Don't hear me saying that you should never speak about God's judgment, and you should never speak about God's love, and you should never make applications of scripture to contemporary issues. Of course, you must do these things.

Jeff Iorg:

I'm simply saying use the Bible honestly. Let it speak where it really speaks and remain silent where it remains silent. And don't try to make it say more than it does just because you wanna prove your point or because you wanna say something that you think is important that needs to have biblical, support, but you really can't find it, so you twist a verse to make it fit. Don't do that. Controversial issues deserve the best in your use of the bible as you try to address them from scripture.

Jeff Iorg:

And then when you're speaking theologically in writing your manuscript, remember, to speak about large theological themes that address your issues at hand and bring to bear those theological themes without making them necessarily speak to every specific in your current life situation. Positive large theological themes like God's providence, God's sustaining power, God's care for people in crisis, God's creative power and his capacity to create humankind and to do so in his image. And because of that, you you are able to speak to issues, like gender and identity. These are God's these are large theological themes that God has provided for us to speak to issues that are important in our culture. Don't shy away from those themes, but just remember that you're speaking on these large theological themes and bringing application of them and how that can be done well.

Jeff Iorg:

Doesn't necessarily mean that God has to have a theological statement for every single thing happening in our culture, but theology does speak to things that are happening in our culture, and we wanna be wise in how we do that. Well, finally, let me say this. When you do preach on one of these difficult or controversial themes or subjects, remember that this is typically the exception to preaching, not something that has to

Jeff Iorg:

be done every single Sunday or every single Bible study. Remember, when these things come up

Jeff Iorg:

in your text, when you're preaching through themes or preaching through books, go ahead and address them. When they have to be addressed as a in a stand alone message because of a pressing issue in your community or your or in our culture, go ahead and address it. But if you'll use what we've talked about today to create messages that stand alone, and in some ways, stand the test of time on these controversial issues, you won't have to return to them repeatedly or perhaps even often. You'll then be able to move back into text and be preaching through the scriptures and covering the themes that are there, which for the most part, speak to the core issues of life and the pressing issues of life, but don't necessarily speak only to the controversial issues of life. So when you've spoken on one of these issues, then move on.

Jeff Iorg:

Move on to preaching again through the text of scripture that you're using and preaching on the themes and subjects that come up as you're moving along or moving back into the study that you're doing or the study subject that you're on without feeling pressured to always be controversial or to always preach on something difficult or teach on something challenging every time you stand up with a bible in your hand. Yes. Preachers and teachers have both an obligation and an opportunity to preach and teach on difficult subjects, on challenging subjects, even on controversial subjects. We have both the obligation and the opportunity to do this. You cannot you cannot shy away from these kinds of issues, these kinds of subjects because they're difficult or challenging or maybe emotionally charged and may even create some conflict or difficulty for you with your hearers.

Jeff Iorg:

It's your responsibility, your obligation, and your opportunity to preach and teach on these subjects when necessary. Have the courage to do so. But put into practice what I've taught you today, and you'll do it more effectively. Recognize how to address these issues and when to do so is very significant. Learn how to do it well, so that you do it carefully, and appropriately, and most oftentimes in manuscript format.

Jeff Iorg:

And then, and then, focus on using the Bible well and bringing large theological themes to bear on these issues. Be careful. Be careful that you don't go too quickly to the specifics recognizing that the Bible may not speak to every single issue that's happening in your culture or community, but it does have something to say about these large issues. And when it does have something to say, it needs to be said clearly, with authority that comes from the Word of God, with depth that comes from theological reflection evident in your life, and with application that's evident in your life, and with application that's realistic and fair and based on the true facts of the situation as we're confronting it today in our culture. You have the responsibility, the obligation, and the opportunity to speak on difficult and challenging subjects.

Jeff Iorg:

You have the responsibility,

Jeff Iorg:

the obligation, and the opportunity to speak on difficult and challenging subjects. You have the