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Welcome to I’m Not Even Supposed to Be Here Today, a conversational, culture-savvy podcast for folks trying to make sense of a world that has gone sideways. We’re here to unpack the issues that boggle our minds, all rooted in a little history, a little culture, a little humor, a little group therapy, and a little humility.
Desiree Ep18 (00:00)
being an adult, you know, being a parent during this time period where, cause I'm experiencing it now, you know, like up until, you know, maybe I think I was last cool in 2012 or something. here lies.
Chris Bevolo (00:13)
What do you have like a tombstone or something? Here lies Des' Coolness.
Welcome, everybody. Welcome back. Welcome back. We are back for Episode 18 of I'm not even supposed to be here today. Our conversational cultural savvy podcasts for folks trying to make sense of a world that has gone kerf Luffy. We're here to unpack the issues that boggle our minds already a little history, a little culture, a little humor, a little group therapy. And as my wife reminded me a little humility.
to make sure that there's humility from me. Always bring the humility. I'm Chris Bevolo owner of Bearing 287, an organization fighting the good fight to make the world a better place for all and the sponsor of the show. And I'm joined as always by my co-host, Des who is a social impact comm strategist by day and who spends her nights remixing history to make sense of the present. Hi, Des
Desiree Ep18 (01:21)
Good morrow Christopher. I don't know what I'm supposed to be bringing. If you're bringing the humility, what am I supposed to be bringing? The humor.
Chris Bevolo (01:27)
Uh, you could
bring, yeah. She's going to humor. You're bringing culture. Cause I ain't got that either. I'm lacking in culture.
Desiree Ep18 (01:32)
the culture.
Let's get you some culture.
Chris Bevolo (01:37)
I'll give some culture today. Today, if you were with us over the long fortnight, using the appropriate term fortnight, not the terrible video game, we started a series, the last episode, which we are calling The Kids Are Not Alright: The Legend of Curly's Gold. We are changing the name every time. This is part two of the series, but.
Each time we are renaming it because we're using a sequel that we enjoy because this is a nod to the sequel like manner in which youth in crisis is treated in America. So we are looking at youth in crisis and how we do this rinse and repeat thing with every generation that comes through. This is going to be the digital era episode. So shit's going to get real in this. guess shit's always been real.
I mean, that's part of what we're talking about is that teens have actually been going through real things. Young people have gone through real things. Oftentimes, however, the response from the adults is, you know, get a haircut. Kids these days, they go a little bit over the top. So it's that balance between the two. So we're going to be covering the late 90s, the 2000s and the 2010s, which are going to rely heavily on you.
Desiree Ep18 (02:49)
.
You
Chris Bevolo (03:03)
where you're going to bring everything because those as I will explain periods of time are very much a blur for me. So I'm going to lend my voice where I can. But as you will hear, I had some things going on. So I don't remember a lot about it. But once we get into the 2000, 2010s, I'll be able to talk about my own kids a little bit. And then we're going to let them talk for themselves next week. So we'll talk about that more later. So
Before we get to that, let's talk about Beef Are you watching Beef? Season two.
Desiree Ep18 (03:42)
again. I stroganoff So I loved the first season of Beef ate it up. But maybe different hits hit space back then. But like, don't know why I watched the first episode of this new season because I was excited. I was like, what direction we're going to go in. And I just was like, I think I want off this ride.
Chris Bevolo (03:44)
Beef season two stroganoff. Beef stroganoff.
Desiree Ep18 (04:11)
Are you? I get, yeah, I've been given up immediately lately. Yeah. I mean, I might try to, I might, I don't know. I just, it feels too, just something like if it's not, I mean, the world is a hot mess. And if you're not adding anything to it or any like, I mean, I guess maybe eventually as they always do at the end, you'll have like the poignant like.
Chris Bevolo (04:11)
Already?
Wow. Well, that's just, what's that about?
Desiree Ep18 (04:38)
story arc or like the thing that you're supposed to learn or you know, the as you, the more you know, lesson at the end. But I honestly, I'm not seeing it. However, I will say the main, the, the wife of the main like character, couple, the older couple, I love her. Anything she does, like I, I love her. can't think of her name, but she's incredible. Not a fan.
Chris Bevolo (04:57)
Yeah.
Not a fan.
She's probably my least favorite person on the show, but I don't, I couldn't, I recognize her, but I couldn't tell you one thing she's been in.
Desiree Ep18 (05:12)
She was in, she's, yeah, they've been kind of like cut. Like it was a Leonard Bernstein movie that came out a couple years ago. She played like the wife. I know they're like deep cuts, but Promising Young Woman. She was incredible and Promising Young Woman.
Chris Bevolo (05:12)
Not one.
So again, no, I'm not cultured, never even heard of those movies at all. Oscar Isaac is in it. Who's good. The young couple, the guy I don't recognize the, the love interest of the guy. I don't know her name, but she was great in Civil War She was kind of the young reporter in Civil War I really liked her in that. And yeah, so I'm curious, maybe we'll have to explore this later.
Desiree Ep18 (05:29)
He's out.
Chris Bevolo (05:55)
why you're out immediately on things more these days. That was more like, well, wait, that sounds like a trend. What I will agree with you on with Beef, and this is true of season one, and I won't spoil anything for season two, is we need to come up with a name for this. Maybe this name already exists, but it's where you watch a movie or a TV show. Usually it's those things. I guess it could be reading a book where you know that the intent of it is just
It's just really dark and negative. And that's the point. That's the point of it. So when we were, we were trying to figure out like how to talk about this, we both, you know, remembered more of the roses, which is I think from the nineties, maybe the eighties, you know,
Desiree Ep18 (06:45)
Yeah, there was an early
version and there's a recent version.
Chris Bevolo (06:47)
Okay, so I the early version of Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones, I believe before they were married. No, no, no, no, it was it was Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner. And it was just it was about a rich couple that got divorced. And I don't know if it was considered a black comedy, but it just was nasty. And it just just kept getting more nasty and it ended nasty. And you're like,
Well, that was terrible. And Beef is the same thing. Like, we know that's what Beef is about. It's about a beef between people. This case is couples rather than it's not just the two couples against each other is actually within the couples. So that's interesting. And now as you get further along, there's like these cross sections of the relationships. But it's all about just like this step down in humanity. And that's the point.
of the whole show. What do you call that? Like, something porn. Everything is now porn. Right? Is that hate porn? Is it like hate porn or nasty porn? Don't Google that.
Desiree Ep18 (07:55)
Like trauma porn, hate porn.
That's it.
Don't Google that. I don't, I don't know. Cause it, cause it's not necessarily hate watching, which I know is a term, but it is something else. We'll have to report back. It might come to us in the shower this week. Like Eureka. They're ready. But it's
Chris Bevolo (08:18)
I'm sure it
exists, whatever the name is we have for this.
Desiree Ep18 (08:22)
We've been calling it there's been a couple of movies where we've gone in not knowing exactly what the premise was but then you get there and it's like the darkest like most violent thing and you're just like that was not that was non-consensual I Didn't sign up for the minute It was Yor- the last one was Yorgos Lanthimos' movie the one before Bugonia It was like the one that was a three different stories and it just was like this is
No, no thanks. You just walk out and you're like, what was the point? I learned nothing from that. Yeah, I think I'm pulling out of things and I'm like, this doesn't bring me any kind of joy, whether it's joy of the storytelling or narrative or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we need something, especially in these eras and these dark times to like lift our spirits.
Chris Bevolo (09:10)
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's not hate watching to your point. Like I've, I've come to, or hate listening anytime I encounter Scott Galloway. That's what I feel that is now. Cause I'm just
listening and watching Scott Galloway waiting for him to say something completely out of his ass and then I jump all over it. So that's the reason I listen to him now. Unfortunately, it's not because I think he's a great guy or I have something to learn from him, though I do learn from him still despite all that. So someday we should have a Scott Galloway episode, but not today. Not today.
Desiree Ep18 (09:40)
We should not today.
A friend of mine that listens to this, she was like, so are y'all doing like a Kara Swisher, Scott Galloway thing? And I was like, LOL, you just got called Scott Galloway.
Chris Bevolo (09:52)
What she was comparing us to Scott just because I bald or because I'm a, mean, it's fair that I'm a tall bald white guy who has spoonfuls of privilege, but I like to think like I have some self-awareness about it. Now I'm sad.
Desiree Ep18 (10:08)
You do have
self-awareness, but you are a thought leader, not T-H-O-T, but...
Chris Bevolo (10:15)
Well, I'm just going to let that simmer. I'm going to let that simmer. It's a little, I guess that's a little bit fair. It's a little bit fair. but that's why I said at the beginning, like my wife always reminds me, don't forget the humility I have. I'd like to think. Yes, that's, that's what I'll say. So tell your friend that I'm trying and that I hate Scott Galway. So maybe that makes her feel better. Okay. Should we get into, get into this,
Desiree Ep18 (10:28)
Humility. Someone should be reminding Scott of that.
We'll do.
Chris Bevolo (10:45)
blur for me, but formative years for you.
Desiree Ep18 (10:49)
Yeah, let's do it. jump in.
Chris Bevolo (10:50)
Okay, so take us away.
Desiree Ep18 (10:52)
Yeah, so I mean, these next three essentially decades, you know, this is where technology speeds up. You know, when we were talking about the 60s, 70s, 80s in our last episode, you know, it was kind of a slow trickle. You know, here we're pressing on the gas because in the 90s we get the internet. The 2000s, we get the beginning of social media and the 2010s we get, you know, these little smartphones in our hands, in our pockets, ruining our lives.
keeping us connected all the times basically. So yeah, I'll do kind of a quick hit starting with the 90s of just kind of what's going on. Cause what we're looking at, know, again, we were inspired by of course all the conversation, the discourse and discussions on the Manosphere. And we're looking at how did we get here? You know, what have been the things that we're building up to this? And this time period is definitely as, you know, kind of looking through the going back
and the way back machine really is like, my God, right. I forgot about that. I forgot about that. forgot. It all led to it. So anyways, jumping into the nineties, you this was still the era where we still had our sense of self and identity that wasn't online. You know, but I have you watched the CNN, those decades documentaries, you know, they've done the 60s.
Chris Bevolo (12:14)
No.
Desiree Ep18 (12:16)
Go back and watch those. Those are incredible. They've been on my list for years and I finally started rewatching them. But in prep for this, I was like, let me watch the 90s one. And violence, I don't know if you remember, but like a lot of violence occurred in our country as well as on other soil throughout that whole decade. So that's kind of the theme. But essentially looking at what's going on for young folks in this area and this era.
young boys, young girls, youths of color and queer folks. So essentially, if we're looking at it from this lens, the young, the boys are experiencing more of this, you know, the video game, there's more violence in the video games. We're starting to see the beginning of the pickup artists, but that didn't really take off until maybe the late 2000s. But there was a book, Ross Jeffries,
published the seduction manual in 1992, which then led to, you think about it, the art of seduction book by the same author of the 48 laws of power. anyways, you get a lot of this thinking about like, kind of like, can I conquer?
Chris Bevolo (13:31)
Is this, is this the same thing as the, I might, I might be confusing the name of the book, but there's a, there is something that was by a guy for men about how to pick up women and you were supposed to like subtly denigrate them.
like, you know what, you're really attracted, but your nose is kind of small. And then the idea was that the woman would try to like, impress the guy and didn't realize she was falling into that trap. Pickup artist, pick up.
Desiree Ep18 (13:59)
Yeah, that's
pick up artists and that's, you just named banter. Yeah, there's like a whole like arsenal of little like tricks and things to open up conversation, which again, 90s were just the beginning of it, but like 2000s to 2010s really exploded. And so, and then for the girls, we're getting girl power here, on the surface, we're getting
Chris Bevolo (14:06)
Yes. Yeah.
Desiree Ep18 (14:24)
Spice Girls and Girl Power and all of this kind of stuff. But for those that don't necessarily subscribe to that, we're also getting the Riot Girl era for the underground girls. So there's this rise in feminism, both from that standpoint of girl power, but then also that Riot Girl, for those that don't connect with that. Also what young girls are dealing with, that's where we, because if you're looking at models,
This area, era, this was, I don't know why I keep saying area, but, right. This was the time period of the supermodel and this was the heroin chic. So now we are getting into the just body image issues and the rise of Ana communities, which is essentially anorexia. So we're dealing with more girls that are kind of navigating this.
Chris Bevolo (14:58)
Area 51.
Desiree Ep18 (15:22)
And the internet doesn't help in that regard. mean, it does in a way for, people are finding community with each other, but in a way it does kind of foster more of that growth. Now looking at black and brown youth, know, the rise of, you know, the hip hop culture on the mainstream, you talked about in the eighties where, you know, there was a lot of the way we talked about women and the, my God, some of the bands that you had mentioned.
but anyways, this is where we start to get into the era of the video Vixen. and just the, this idea of like what, you know, femininity, you know, for young black women looks like. this is also the time period of the, what was that documentary that just came out? It was Freaknik. It was Freaknik. You may not know about Freaknik, but I've lost you already. but the.
Chris Bevolo (16:18)
Yeah.
Desiree Ep18 (16:19)
But so I'm bringing up all these things, like the, and I haven't even gotten to all of them, but I'm like, my goodness, like anything that has occurred in an era that was just like, wow, in the moment, we're just kind of going through it, but there's always going to be a documentary that 20, 30 years from now that is going to tell us just how trash we are. So some of these things I just noted like Freaknik you know, these were documentaries that were on Hulu talking about that era.
of being in Atlanta in the summertime and partying with your friends and just how it all, of course, went awry. But I want to get to the biggest important moment in the 90s, and this came at the end of the decade, 1999. Speaking of that violence, this is the beginning of the mass school shooting known as Columbine. I was in high school during this time period.
In a way, this was our version of the duck and cover of like the Cold War era of students where it's like, I'm going to get under my desk when there's a, so there was all of these, you know, live shooter drills that were happening and just like, can't believe that this is a, has occurred. And then also that was in the spring of that school year. so then we get to the summer, which is Woodstock 99.
MTV was able to broadcast that live 24 seven throughout. was like, I think it was like a week or two that was going on, probably just a week. Cause like, I don't think you would be away for two weeks at a music festival, but that was huge. But then as you look at the recent documentary that came out about six years ago, it came out during the pandemic, how it just like essentially burned down in like violence and effigy.
And just like you see the rage that the young men are experiencing and like artists like Limp Bizkit basically kind of riling the guys up is what was kind of reported in the documentary. And at the time I didn't really think about it. I was still young, pretty youngish. I was in high school, but I wasn't, you know, I didn't have the critical like thinking mind that I have today.
But in watching that, that I was like, my God, there was so much of that. Cause that was fight club, fight club. The movie came out that year and a lot of the blame got put on video games and all that. know that's like your whole jam. Video games, not like violence. But I'm kind of curious your viewpoint, your take on all of this and kind of like what you remember. Granted, I know you were being a whole adult and more as in like in the thick of it, like I was, but kind of curious your experience in that era.
Chris Bevolo (19:02)
The 90s were tough. And they get tougher in terms of memory for me. I got married in 1995. And first child born in 98 second child born in 2000. So young family;
started a business in 1995. I don't I mean, I remember key moments and a lot of them interestingly are tied to violence. OJ Simpson. I do remember Columbine. You know, it's the 90s culturally too is such a it was so like alternative music to me just was like I did not like alternative music at all. I just thought it was just so bland. So bland. It just
Desiree Ep18 (19:30)
Yup.
What?
Chris Bevolo (19:50)
was it was just like, oh my god. So like, we had a friend who worked in an entertainment company in the Twin Cities. And so he could get this thing called the Cities97 sampler. So Cities97 was the alternative rock radio station. And they would have artists come through and play like acoustic sets. And then they would put together a CD. And this thing would sell out, you couldn't get it anywhere.
Desiree Ep18 (20:04)
Yes.
Chris Bevolo (20:18)
but he would get his copies of it. And it's all just like Dell Amico and it's just like all these like blah, all these bands sound the same. Their music is just blah, Hootie and the Blowfish. mean, like, what are we talking about? I was not part of like anything to do with the rap or hip hop scene though. I would listen to that a little bit. Hard Rock had just gone in the toilet at that point after Grunge kind of passed.
Desiree Ep18 (20:34)
What?
Chris Bevolo (20:46)
So it was, it was like a lot of pop music. Like I was just, I dunno, I was in, I was in Storm Lake, Iowa and West Des Moines, Iowa for much of the nineties, which like, if you want to get even more buried, it holds for, I don't think it's possible. so I, you know, I have little to what's interesting is, when we get to the other decades, we're going to talk about my cultural.
Desiree Ep18 (21:00)
Okay. Okay.
Chris Bevolo (21:27)
I was very up to speed on the latest pop music because they would listen to it. I became hip because of that. But that's it.
Desiree Ep18 (21:34)
All right. We'll thank,
we'll thank goodness for that because how dare you besmirch the era of an oasis of a radio head of, we will cross this bridge another day. We have too much show to get there.
Chris Bevolo (21:44)
Yeah, see, like what? Like, no, I mean, that's stuff.
I'm not talking about
Oasis was rock. Don't you think?
Desiree Ep18 (21:56)
Yeah, was, but
but it was all, it was all kind of alt rock at that time period.
Chris Bevolo (22:01)
you got like third eye blind, I guess they were kind of rock matchbox 20 all these just like, they're all the same. Yes. Well, that was the Nickelbacks of their, I want to point out something though, because, because I never thought of the nineties as violent, but you're a hundred percent right. And then I started looking at the decades as we've gone through these decades. I'm sure other people have studied this, but check this out. Check out the 30 year cycle. So 1930s.
Desiree Ep18 (22:06)
Well, those were boring, yes. Those were the nickel backs of their area, yes.
Chris Bevolo (22:28)
So first I'm going to go with starting with 1930. I'm going go further back and think geopolitical upheaval, 1930s with the Great Depression and the rise of Nazi Germany, 1960s, 1990s violence, the wall falls, all of that, 2020s, which is what we're living through right now. Right. Okay. Now think about financial stress as the theme. Okay.
Desiree Ep18 (22:49)
2020. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Chris Bevolo (22:58)
I don't know if the 1940s really financial stressful economically, but with the world war two, like there was bad inflation. People had to have like coupons. couldn't like you had to recycle everything, whatever 1970s, badass, terrible. 2000s. You had the dot.com boom and collapse. And then you had the 2007 financial crisis.
The 2030s are what ahead of us, if that's true. And just to seal this theme, hold on, let me finish. 1920s roaring 20s, 1950s. talked about that economically roaring 1980s. What did I say about the 1980s? Roaring financial. It's all about money. That's where the boomers got the nickname, the me generation, by the way. And then the 2010s, which I don't know if they were financial booms or not, but they were happy times compared to 2008. And what came?
Desiree Ep18 (23:30)
Mm-hmm.
I think.
Chris Bevolo (23:52)
later in the decade. anyway, I find that intriguing. We can move on. I don't know how this has to do with anything,
Desiree Ep18 (23:57)
That death. No,
no, but I mean, a lot of this has to do with like what's kind of going on in the, in that time period, but yeah, it's, it's the, the, the, the thirties, the 30 year cycle. so getting into the two thousands, this is where social media arrives. You've got the MySpace is of course, before that the flop of the Friendster. but you, MySpace gave us our first influencer in the form of Jeffery Star.
problematic, your favorite problematic. and also like Tila Tequila who, wow. Yeah. I remember her,
Chris Bevolo (24:32)
So yeah.
No, only from the reality
shows that was she on or she was on where I was like, who's that?
Desiree Ep18 (24:38)
Yeah. She came to prominence because of like a MTV, like it was like one of the first like dating shows or whatever. It was like precursor to like bachelor, bachelorette, those sorts of things. So I mentioned the pickup artists community earlier. This is where they start to thrive within forums. know, forums are have gotten big. I know for me it was, you know, the AOL you've got mail and the chat rooms. We,
should not have been allowed that young to be in some chat rooms talking to 40 year old men. That was a wild time. So there was that going on. then just kind of getting into culture in general with the young women, you know, this is the Britney Spears era. This is this pop culture where essentially, you know, her virginity was a new story. Her sexuality was talked about all the time.
We're looking at, of course, like the Justin Timberlakes and how like, he's awful now. But then there's also America's Next Top Model. Again, this was looking at that, at the time we weren't really thinking about it in that way, but again, since that documentary kind of reflecting back on those eras of like how those young women were treated and how they were depicted and like all of this.
Chris Bevolo (25:44)
Yeah.
Desiree Ep18 (26:08)
conversation around body image and like, you're, woo, you know, a lot to navigate. And so then with getting to the pro-ana movement, the anorexia, you know, all of this migrates to Tumblr, starts to migrate to Tumblr during this time period. And then for black and brown youth, you know, this is the Twitter starts to take off and then the subsequent Black Twitter.
you, get to connect with different folks. a precursor to that was BlackPlanet I think BlackPlanet was even a precursor to like Myspace but it was a place for like, I know a young, black college students gathered there. was kind of like before like Facebook, the design of my space and before the connectivity of like college students, that Facebook gave us. but speaking of that Tumblr, this was the space for queer youth to find each other.
this was also the beginning of the, gets better, messaging, know, this campaign launches, it actually doesn't launch until 2010. but essentially the theme here is the internet gave us access to each other that we didn't have before. You know, before it was about like, who were you in school with, who lived in your neighborhood, your family, you know, who did you play sports with or what have you, but with the internet and social media, this gives us access to one another.
Um, so, but I'm just kind of curious. I know again, you, you're, you're, you're kind of checked out because you're out here being adult. None of this like madness to you, but just kind of curious, like what, how any of this has been like, kind of bubbling up for, as you were kind of reflecting back on this time period.
Chris Bevolo (27:52)
Yeah, I mean, now is when this technology actually starts to matter more because my kids are, you know,
So one born in 98 one born in 2001 and one born in 2002. So, you know, just the advent of the internet and access to the internet was a was a thing before like, you know, just as we're trying to figure that out. Boom, iPhone comes in 2007. And then social media hits, right. And so, but I mean,
look, here's the story for me that was why I can't contribute much to it. My world was a blur. started my own business. So I was running my own business. Three kids of those ages started a divorce in 2006, which was completed 2008, did my MBA between 2005 and 2007. So the 2000s, what like what I don't
Desiree Ep18 (28:33)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehehe
Chris Bevolo (28:50)
I
don't know anything about the 2000s. Like it's just, I can certainly speak to things like the financial crisis because that hit business. And, I was big into business and learning about business and all that. So I know all about that. I can talk about social media and digital in terms of the business I was in, which was healthcare marketing.
And I remember we wrote a book in 2011, but the data was probably at least a year old. So it's, you know, let's say near the end of the 2000s, that said at the time, less than I think it was half it might have been lower of that of the hospitals or health systems in the country used search engine marketing. So again, like that's not even social media. That's just Google. Like they're not using Google ads by the end of 2000.
Desiree Ep18 (29:30)
you.
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (29:44)
I remember all of the hand wringing and consternation about social media and the healthcare space. Oh my gosh, I there was a whole movement of people who said you shouldn't be on it. You shouldn't be on it as a hospital or health system. When it first, you know, when Facebook first started getting big and Twitter, think started and, you I got on Twitter in 2009. So don't know when it really started. And so
Desiree Ep18 (30:06)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Bevolo (30:15)
you know, because it was just like, Oh, we don't want to get involved in this. And it's like, Hey, people are going to talk about you whether you're there or not. You might want to be there. But culturally, I mean, I can't,
Desiree Ep18 (30:24)
Yeah. I'm out.
Chris Bevolo (30:29)
I can't speak to any of that. When we get to the next decade, I'll be able to talk more about, my gosh, the impact of technology on, on teens, because my kids were teens at that point, but not, you know, by 2010, the oldest child was 12. So
Desiree Ep18 (30:43)
So 2008, you know, Obama 08, you know, essentially, you know, his campaign, you know, big piece of, you know, being on social media, Facebook, you know, there was a big piece of that, that led to some success for that campaign. They were harnessing, you know, what was there and available, you know, at that time, the way that Bill Clinton like
Chris Bevolo (30:53)
Mm-hmm.
Desiree Ep18 (31:04)
Well, actually Hillary Clinton got Bill Clinton on the Arsenio Hall show, but there was also the MTV Rock the Vote, what have you. But again, this was that time period of again, just getting access to each other, getting to explore our interests, but then also kind of the rise of internet bullying, you know, and I imagine a lot of, cause I was in college by this point, so there wasn't, you know, bullying to that level unless you were bullying your friends with your top eight on MySpace.
Chris Bevolo (31:11)
Yeah.
Desiree Ep18 (31:34)
being very passive aggressive with who's moving up and who's moving down on that list. But as we're starting to get into the 2010s, know, that net that we up the ante again. So we go Internet, social media, and then the smartphone gives us the Internet in our hands right there at all times. We have access. We have the rise of apps because before all of this, like you accessed Facebook on your computer.
but talking about that strife, that's, the, the 20, 2000, 2010s was kind of interesting because it was also the, mortgage crisis. You know, there was a lot of financial strife there for jobs, for millennials graduating, not having jobs that they can get to, occupy wall street. A lot of that organized, you know, on the, on social media, and amplify, but as we're getting into 2010, that smartphone. And so what.
boys are dealing with is that, okay, these pickup artists forums has now kind of turned into incels incel media, where a lot of these guys communicating with each other. there's connectivity with gaming. So your game systems are connected to the internet. So you're playing with different folks. God knows wherever, you're also talking mad shit, with one another. And then you start to hear the rise of just like the.
worst language used for anyone that was not like a young white male. So you have a lot of that just kind of that breeding, that animosity. We get some of our first Manosphere influencers in the form of Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. You know, they start to rise in this era. But of course, like that all blows up from there.
Chris Bevolo (33:18)
We found.
Desiree Ep18 (33:26)
now flipping to what young women are experiencing, you know, this is the Instagram era, the Kardashians, know, what we're seeing. And, know, Facebook was one thing. Facebook was a, someone's got their digital camera. We're partying. Someone's taken 5,000 photos and then just uploading all of them blurry and all to photo albums on Facebook, LOL. But then Instagram, we curate our identity.
Chris Bevolo (33:33)
Ha ha ha.
Desiree Ep18 (33:52)
who we're about, what we're about. Tumblr taught us a little bit about this where we're curating based off of the posts that we're sharing, but Instagram takes it to that next level, which then really gets us to that, what the influencer can look like and the Kardashians and the wellness spaces and just all of this stuff. We talked about this on one of our earlier episodes of the vocabulary of gaslighting, emotional labor, toxic masculinity.
people start talking about all of this stuff and like essentially calling, you know, all, you know, men like, you're toxic and da da da da da, which again has kind of led to, to, where we are here today. but on the flip side of that black and brown youth, you know, we're experiencing some activism because we have to, we need to, you know, we have our first, you know, black lives matter, moment, the beginning of like where Trayvon Martin, was murdered. then you,
the Black Twitter has taken off. was more like comedic in a way where you're like live tweeting during a show or doing the BET awards or something like that, which you know nothing about. But it then turned into, I remember that time when there was a fight with Defero between, I was there, the one white guy. But this is where it turns to like, oh, we have,
Chris Bevolo (34:59)
What do you mean?
Desiree Ep18 (35:13)
power now we can use this to, you know, get the word out to, to, or to organize, to mobilize. We saw this done of course with the Obama campaign, but then it like takes its own kind of meaning here. but yeah, so again, that was just like a quick hits. but now that you, your kids are starting to come of age, you're like paying more attention to things again. What were the 2010s like for you?
Chris Bevolo (35:36)
The 2010s were scary. I guess scary. know, cell phones. I mean, I don't think really cell phones became an issue for kids until they were smartphones. so, you know, that didn't happen until my kids were in junior high or high school. I can't remember. Like each one got the cell phone younger than the one prior.
and that just happens when you're parenting. Usually you become more relaxed with each additional kid just because, it worked out with the first one. So I'm not going to worry as much, which is why, you know, they progressively become more free. And, why my youngest goes to raves every weekend because she's, she's, she likes to party. but she's a phenomenal person. So don't take that the wrong way. The, what I remember was first of all, two year friends,
Desiree Ep18 (36:17)
Woo!
Chris Bevolo (36:29)
point earlier, I was essentially Scott Galloway as a father until my my wife now Tonya came into the picture. She came along, she probably met the kids in 2010. So without her, I think you could roll the dice and and it's possible I might not have a relationship with one or more of my kids. I didn't you know, I just wasn't
I was a dad and for a number of years I was, I was a dad, you know, who had my kids 50 % of the time, which was actually great because when they're just with me, I am just with them. There's nothing else that I can do. So I was really engaged as a father, but also just clueless. and I'm sure my daughters could speak to that. A perfect example of this is, when yoga pants came into style and I was just like, hell no. Like you're not wearing yoga pants. And they're like,
Desiree Ep18 (36:59)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (37:26)
Why not? And I was like, because they're too revealing and they're like, too revealing for who? Like, what do you what do you mean? Right. And so I also remember having a discussion about like wearing revealing clothing and like, it's not safe. And they're like, well, you're blaming the victim. Like, why? Why is it our problem that men can't handle that? And I'm like, well, that's a good
You've been in the ,and Tonya, was huge in helping me see that. I still was protective as a father. And I'm like, well, that may be true, but the some men are still assholes. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like that's the way it should be. But the way it is is I don't want you walking down a dark alley like that. Right. So I still had that that Scott Galloway side to me. But the scary part was just the access to the internet in their hand and
Desiree Ep18 (37:58)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (38:27)
the fear of bullying that they would be bullied. And I guess there was some small incidents, but nothing like we never thankfully had a child who was bullied on a on a basis that like we had to get involved, except for one time, which I'll explain. But but just, you know, we had rules. I remember like, as a parent, you're just trying to like figure out what the hell do you do with this? What do you do with
Desiree Ep18 (38:29)
Thank you.
Thanks.
Chris Bevolo (38:55)
Your kids, you don't want your kids to be left behind socially. Right. but also, holy cow, snapchats, they disappear. we had rules like when you went to bed, the phones had to be put away. I don't know if that was followed a hundred percent, but that was a rule. we had a whole, like, I think we had like a contract. I bet I could find it. Of like.
the rules of how to use the phone. And we had each person
Desiree Ep18 (39:24)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (39:26)
had to sign it kind of like the mad contract that was back in the eighties about drinking and driving. We had that with like phones. Yep. And like we had the right to get into the phone, whatever we wanted. We rarely did that, but we had to do it a couple times when things got a hand the things I saw. You're just like, I didn't want to see this as a father of a teenage girl.
Desiree Ep18 (39:31)
yeah, an abstinence.
Chris Bevolo (39:52)
I don't want to see the chats that I'm seeing. I don't want to see the pictures that I'm seeing. And so all of that was scaring. I will tell you the one time that we had to deal with bullying involved a daughter who was 11. And she was bullied by a mom.
Yeah. Yeah. yeah. So, so, so it was the friend group had to sleep over at this girl's house. My daughter was there and then they decided to go do something else. And the mom was upset about it. I think because like [her] daughter had to stay behind or something. so she thought like her daughter was being bullied and she's jumping into the chat and she's talking like one of the girls and she
Desiree Ep18 (40:11)
What?
Chris Bevolo (40:38)
She jumped on my daughter and was like, I won't say the name, but she was like, Hey, Susie, that's not my daughter's name. Stop talking shit. You don't know what you're talking about and blah, blah. And I was like, whoa. And so talking to the mother of our kids about what to do about it, Tonya, my current wife, who is the most upset she wanted to like she wanted to
bring hands. Another like in the Hall of Fame of my parenting moments is how I handled that which was I called the father the mother up I said hey I need to stop by and talk to you and he just stopped by and a very reasonable conversation I said look I don't know what's going on here but it doesn't really matter like you have a problem with my child you just come to me don't like that's not okay. So
Desiree Ep18 (41:07)
I'm trying to fight.
and
Chris Bevolo (41:32)
That stuff was like, all the time omnipresent omnipresent
Desiree Ep18 (41:36)
Yeah.
How much of that do you think is a reflection of the rise of reality television? Right? So also throughout this time period, these 30 years, is the way that we're talking to each other is shifting. You had talked about, you know, when you were in school in the eighties of, know, of people just using the F word.
for like being gay to calling everybody the F word. In my high school, in the 90s, my high school era, was saying everything, that's gay, that's gay, this is gay. And then like 2000, 2010s, it like no homo, it was like all of this. But also with reality television, you're not having just like, you're not stuck with just scripted television that had to go through reviews.
for broadcast and as well as news. Now you just have like people are able to just be themselves, be their authentic selves, help and just say whatever. And as like it started off like really kind of cool and thought provoking with the real world. But then we get to the America's next talk model. We were rooting for you. We're all rooting for you. then we're getting into the,
kind of the, what is it, the bad girls, like just, and then the Kardashians, and just the way that people are talking to each other. And then it like spills out to like, to see that parents are talking that way. And it's just kind of a mixing, but I don't know, that was kind of my hunch is that like reality TV has to be a part of that, a reason for that, I mean.
Chris Bevolo (43:16)
I guess I look at that reality TV.
a different side of it that I think was very toxic. And it goes right along with social media. And that's the performative nature of it. So you're right. Like the the real world was real for a couple of seasons. But in the by the 2010s, like everything's performative in reality is none of its reality. Like I remember we watched the hills. And then it turns out like the whole thing was scripted. This was reality. The whole thing was scripted.
Desiree Ep18 (43:35)
Couple seasons.
Chris Bevolo (43:49)
And so like now you just assume that but in the 2010s, you could look at some of those and think that that's real life, but it wasn't ever real life. And that was the thing on social media. So imagine you're a teenage girl in particular. I don't know why I would think of this in terms of girls more than boys. I just think like, boys are, there's performative, the need for performative stuff probably is just different. But like,
I mean, everything that you're exposed to is the best, right? It's the best. This is the best clothes. This is the best, you know, the FOMO. my gosh, like you're at the best party and you're not there and you don't have the best clothes and you can't afford the best clothes. And wait, you only have 20 likes, but that person has 50 likes. I mean, holy cow, it is no wonder.
Desiree Ep18 (44:23)
You
Mm-hmm.
Chris Bevolo (44:46)
that there still is a teen mental health crisis we put kids through. And in the 2010s, I don't think there was any real national conversation about this is really, I mean, there was, but there wasn't a consensus that this is just bad. This is bad and it's taken us some time, right? And now we know that Mark Zuckerberg is in fact the devil because he knew that Instagram was causing girls harm.
Desiree Ep18 (44:46)
out.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Bevolo (45:15)
and he didn't give a shit because it was making him money. So, you know, here we are, it's 2026, and he just went on trial for some of this stuff. I mean, in the 2010s, it was the Wild West, and you did your best, and I really feel for the teenagers, boys and girls, no matter what their gender affiliation was, not great to live in such a performative world.
Desiree Ep18 (45:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm great.
And speaking of that evolution of the performative, you mentioned the Hills. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the beloved Laguna Beach where it all began. We meet the whole crew that felt wholesome, but it was also the beginning of that. Well, it feels like the beginning. Someone please correct us if we're wrong, but that was a beginning of showing wealth. You know, they were living in Orange County and then you started to have these other shows that the show that was called the OC. What?
Chris Bevolo (46:02)
Yeah
Well, I mean, you had
the eighties, you had lifestyles of the rich and famous. Let's not forget. I guess that was more of a documentary style.
Desiree Ep18 (46:16)
Well, but that was
like this, was celebrities, right? That was celebrities. This was like everyday people showing their like, this is what I got and you ain't got, and yada, yada, yada. But getting back to that evolution. So Laguna Beach, know, wholesome for that era, just kind of telling teen life, you know, just in a different way. Then you get the Hills, which then becomes fake. And the Justin Bobby.
Chris Bevolo (46:20)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair.
Desiree Ep18 (46:41)
I almost said justice for Justin Bobby, but no justice for Justin Bobby because he was like the first like portrayal of like toxic toxic male or whatever. feel like that term was like coined for him. Probably. He was one of the like trash boyfriends that like they were in off again on again. And it's like, what's why does this guy have two first names? So but he was that first kind of depiction.
Chris Bevolo (46:51)
He was I don't know who that is. Was he on the was he on the hills?
Desiree Ep18 (47:07)
Like if, Zach Morris or somebody was one, this was like the next level who.
Chris Bevolo (47:11)
You know who is worse than him? The next
track on that show is Spencer, who's now, by the way.
Desiree Ep18 (47:17)
running for mayor,
that was gonna be my third loop to that is like now we have Spencer Pratt running for mayor of LA and apparently like killed it in his debate, which is insane. But that also goes to the fact of what you were talking about from being in your career of like at the beginning social media was just this like child's play thing. This is just some dumb thing the kids are doing on the internet.
Chris Bevolo (47:21)
of LA.
Right. Doing well. Yes.
Desiree Ep18 (47:42)
And then they allowed adults onto Facebook, because before when it started, it was just connected to your college. Then the masses were allowed and then it kind of took off and then it's just like spiral from there. But at the time, know, the legitimize, the legitimizing of the platform to not taken seriously to, okay, my brand needs to be on there to.
Oh God, they're ruining our, they're the richest people on the planet and they're ruining our lives. Like that arc, that 21 year arc is insane to me. Um, but
Chris Bevolo (48:19)
Thank God
that's not happening anymore.
Desiree Ep18 (48:21)
It's not happening anymore. We're safe. But to your point around like everything was a performance. You had to have that best. It's the most likes, the most amount of followers that then everyone kids today, instead of wanting to be like a doctor or astronaut or something like that, they want to be an influencer because they got money. now it's now everything is about capitalism and chasing and turning.
what your hobbies were, the things that you just love to do, and to how can I optimize, how can I make money? And we'll get more into this in our final episode from 2020 on. But this is all of the beginning of that, the rise of the Kardashians. Help. This is where it all started.
Chris Bevolo (49:10)
Yeah, yeah, I find that as we move into the talk about the mass fear today, it's this decade where you see the most egregious formation of it. So you pointed out some really great examples of like early seeds of it. And but it's the 2010s where that stuff goes mainstream, I think is the fair way to put it. You know, I just learned the definition of in cell.
Like three weeks ago. I don't know. Probably not three weeks ago, but like a month or two ago. that's the 2010s big time. so like just this, you know, I don't know what the cut your hair thing is about then. It's probably the cut your hair is you're on, you're on your phones all the time. You're addicted to social media, which is hilarious now, because that means all of the adults right now are
Desiree Ep18 (49:41)
Mm-hmm.
You're addicted.
Chris Bevolo (50:02)
their sport and some long ass ponytails because I think the adults are worse than the kids. really do. Adults are worse when it comes to phone addiction. But that was probably what was lobbed at the 2010 generation. You know, the Gen Zers, which was you're on your phone all the time. It's just so you don't, you know, like remember the like classic, oh, the kids get together today and all they do is they just sit on their phones. Right. And I'm like, well, that's weird. My kids don't do that, but okay.
Desiree Ep18 (50:07)
Yeah.
Okay.
.
Chris Bevolo (50:31)
Like, I don't know if that was really true. And I know it was true to a degree, but it just so, you know, like we're just going to stereotype an entire generation as they're just in their phones and they don't know how to do anything and they can't talk to people and whatever. And so again, I don't want to use my own personal experience to debunk that, but I think exaggeration is a fair. Is a fair word to use when applying that to an entire generation, just like slacker was, it just like.
the rest of the things we've talked about.
Desiree Ep18 (51:00)
And so getting back to what brought us to this and it's they, God, what do we do? And you know, some of the, what you had shared, you know, as being an adult, you know, being a parent during this time period where, cause I'm experiencing it now, you know, like up until, you know, maybe I think I was last cool in 2012 or something. here lies.
Chris Bevolo (51:22)
What do you have like a tombstone or something? Here lies Des' Coolness.
Desiree Ep18 (51:29)
But once you do get to a certain age, you start to roll off. You're not paying attention at that level of those things, which makes it harder as a parent to your point. Earlier on, like, I don't know, because how can you possibly stay on? So I bring this all up because it's like a lot of times like, you know, parents are blamed or teachers are blamed or video games are blamed or whatever, but it's like.
with things moving at such a pace and technology and like the internet and social and all of this and just having the device, it's not even the family computer anymore. How can you possibly keep tab on not even just like what your kids are doing, but like what they're exposed to, you know, because there's just so much going on that's interior that you, it feels impossible. So it's almost like, what do you do? You know, not wanting to of course be like that helicopter parent.
you know, gentle parenting this area of this age. But like, how, how do you navigate this? Cause it does the anti is just going to continue to up and up and up where you just feel like further and further and further away from the people living in your little people living in your house. To also just like what's going on with talk technology. That's, that's the, the big, big question. And we'll say it's not your fault.
If you're not able to stay up to speed, there's too much to like juggle in order to even remotely do that. And plus like the interest isn't there as Chris like talked about the music of the nineties that I'll let slide. We'll get back to that another episode, but it's impossible. It's impossible for a parent to stay up to speed on all of this.
Chris Bevolo (53:06)
That's fair.
No, and you should, mean, in some degrees, it would be kind of sad if you did. mean, you should mature into other things and not that the stuff that you're, mean, I guess by definition, it's immature when you're, if you're 17, relatively speaking, but like, you don't want to be a cool 40 year old. Like what, mean, I suppose you, you can make a living onto that, but like, what are you going to do? Show up at the clubs at 40 and be like, yeah, this is my jam. I don't think that works well anyway. Um, but I, it just,
Desiree Ep18 (53:37)
Well, and you'd only be there with other
40 year olds because young people don't go to clubs.
Chris Bevolo (53:41)
They don't go to clubs anymore?
Desiree Ep18 (53:43)
No, the clubs are at the coffee shop. The clubs are in the running clubs. The young folks with... I know about it because I try to stay around and like to hear what the kids are doing. But also, I will say like scrolling on social media keeps me up to speed on what's going on. So it's good in that way where it's like, okay, here's the discourse. It at least kind of gives me an idea of what's going on without actually having to participate.
Chris Bevolo (53:48)
Well, I thought you weren't hip anymore.
I have a question
for you that you don't have to answer now, but maybe we can think about it. It could be one of two things. It's very common for people my age to say, thank God there wasn't social media when we were growing up, because we would not want our lives documented the stuff we did. And I don't think the stuff that kids are doing today or in the 2010s or 2000s was actually much different. But the FOMO
Desiree Ep18 (54:33)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (54:36)
and the bullying and all of that was bad enough. But to have all of that like at your fingertips, like we always say like, thank God. So here's my question. I also find myself and other people I know thinking like, gosh, you know, like social media net net has not been good. Net net has been bad. Right. And longing for like a
Desiree Ep18 (54:44)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (55:04)
we talked about this in the episode or two ago, or it's like people have nostalgia for going back to tactile things and real life things and that kind of stuff and getting off the digital. Is that just nostalgia? Which happens all the time? Or is that a real pulling back? Like, has there ever been a situation in history, where people have legitimately
tried to pull back from a technological advancement.
Desiree Ep18 (55:31)
off vinyl. I don't know about you guys, but I'm off vinyl. no, that I say that as like, sounds kind of ridiculous if you were to say it in that era. Um, cause there wasn't the level of addiction, um, to it because these machines, the work, the algorithms is built to addict us and keep our attention on it and not ourselves. So I would say,
Chris Bevolo (55:50)
Right. Right.
Desiree Ep18 (55:55)
For me, it's not that like, God, like I wasn't doing anything like crazy. It's more the, don't have to keep up with the appearance appearances. In the 2010s, the closest version of that for me was hosting, I think it was called Four Square. Checking in on Four Square, like, hey, all of us are at Beauty Bar. know, it was more like an invitation, not like a brag of like, we're here and you're not, you suck. It was more of a,
Hey, we're out, like, cause what I would do is I'd get on and just kind of like, I'd have like my friends in a certain group and I would just scroll through to see like if people were out and about and then I would just like show up and it's like, it's a party, right? But then the flip side of that has become the Instagram posts, the stories you're posting, like, we were at, that's where the film, hey, we were out at this concert. We were out this show. I'm with my best friends. You weren't invited cause you stuck.
So becomes, not that that was everyone's intention, but that's kind of the flip side that that became. Now there's more of sense of privacy where it's like I just, I don't want to compete for attention of others unless like, of course you're an influencer. To me, that's kind of how I take that. But yeah, I am nostalgic.
No, wouldn't even say it's nostalgic. It's more just like wanting community in person. Like I do miss the days of like you just went over to someone's house and hung out. Now it's gotta be a scheduled catch up session, you know, at the coffee shop, at the wine bar, at the, the, the, the, the, it doesn't feel as natural flow as it used to.
Chris Bevolo (57:33)
Well, just ponder it for a while, because I think like, when I think historically about technological transformation evolution,
There's only a couple things I can think of where people said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, we need to, we need to go backwards nuclear power. So nuclear weapons and also like nuclear power plants. Like we were like, what? Trying to go backwards. but what else? I don't know what else. And so it's interesting to think about is the online digital world an example of that, or is it just nostalgia to go back to a simpler time? And then he got AI coming.
Desiree Ep18 (58:09)
Yeah.
Chris Bevolo (58:10)
And if, if that could be another example of people were like, we're already hearing that before we've even really seen the true power of AI, we already have, I would say the majority of people saying who's nobody wants this. Why are we doing this? so it's just interesting to me to think about it in those terms. because we've, we've really framed this whole episode around the technology changes.
Desiree Ep18 (58:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Bevolo (58:39)
like, I don't think people think that about the internet. But I think people would argue social media, and maybe smartphones in terms of or if you wanted to simplify it, algorithms, that boy, if we could get away from algorithms, we'd all be better. I don't know.
Desiree Ep18 (58:42)
And.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's,
it's the apps, you know, it's checking for that dopamine hit of who, like, what are my notifications from Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, Reddit. It's constant. So I would say between nuclear and today, the only one version of that, that's kind of slight would be like television.
I remember that was like kind of a thing for a where it's like, God, you're watching too much television. You're like, everything's around television. Again, I know it's not at the level, but you, but that was a thing, especially once the, marathon, the idea of the marathon of a, of a show became like a thing, mostly from cable, like MTV, E, Bravo. They just started like running like whole seasons of like housewives or
Chris Bevolo (59:29)
Do you think?
Desiree Ep18 (59:48)
any of those reality shows where you're like, I don't have to wait each week for like the next episode. I can just have this on in the background, which then became streaming. And I would say like getting in, especially going through 2020 and COVID, I would say the thing that people like try to like pull back from again, not at the level of social and the apps is the just staying at home and watching TV. And like, that's kind of gotten us to this idea right now of where we're
like experiencing loneliness. That's the closest.
Chris Bevolo (1:00:20)
Maybe, yeah, I mean, I just, whenever I hear somebody says, watch TV. The first thing I think of that's a performative statement. It's probably not fair. I do.
Also, like the evidence shows there's more content on streaming and television than ever before. society wide, I don't think that that holds up with that, but maybe. society wide, certainly like we had deals like get rid of nuclear weapons, we have pulled back on nuclear power, though that's that may be changing. I just wonder whether this is this is another example. But anyway, that says a lot about
The fact that we're questioning that says a lot about the power of technology tied to the youth and what they've been through. And God bless my kids because they went through the formative years of social media and smartphones when nobody knew what the F to do with those. And I don't think they're better off for that. They may disagree.
But I don't think we as a society are better off either. So, blah, blah. You know what? It'll get better when we start talking about 2020, right?
Desiree Ep18 (1:01:28)
We'll find out next week.
Things started looking up.
Chris Bevolo (1:01:35)
They do. Fantastic.
All right. Well, is that a good wrapping point? Is there anything else you wanted to lay down before we, we called a day?
Desiree Ep18 (1:01:46)
No, no, just what,
no, it's just like going through this has been like, wow, there are so many, like I'm thinking about like what 20 and 30 years from now, what are the documentaries that are going to come out to just tell us how we were trash in 2026? Because that's kind of the going back through the, the history was just like, wow, there are so many documentaries that are about that particular era that have come out these last six years. So.
Chris Bevolo (1:02:15)
I think, I think we need to make this a completely separate episode, but I think the documentaries are all going to have the theme of what the fuck were you people doing? What were you thinking? And it's not just about social media. It's going to be about like everything. Like you guys were okay with this. You were okay with that. Like you just went on your lives while this was happening and that was happening. like what were you doing?
Desiree Ep18 (1:02:15)
Stay tuned.
Everything.
Chris Bevolo (1:02:44)
So that's a whole different, a whole different episode. So next week, we will be back, we will have some guests with us, who will be able to speak first person. Because definitely we're talking about the 2020s, if we're talking about youth, Des and I are right out... I'm not even parenting in the 2020s really. I am you - You never stop parenting. You're not stop being a parent. But you know, my kids were all on their own, essentially, essentially.
so we'll talk about that. So Dez, thank you so much for this episode. Julia Bevolo thank you for producing the show. Julia will be our guest next week, along with maybe one or two others. So, she, she is of the age where she can speak to this. She could have spoken to the, this episode too, but we're going to save her for the, for the 2020 stitch. So that'll be nice.
Desiree Ep18 (1:03:26)
Woo!
Chris Bevolo (1:03:39)
Thank all of you for joining us. Hopefully this helped you cope in some way with the world around us understanding a little better. Please like and subscribe to the podcast wherever you watch or listen to your pods. Give us those five stars on Apple. That helps ensure our profile rises more people can hear us, which is great. Visit Bearing287.com or follow me on Substack to access other helpful content from our network. And once again, I'm Chris Bevolo
and on behalf of I'm not even supposed to be here today at Bearing287 Thank you for listening. We will see you next time.