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Are you a passionate veterinarian seeking to elevate your practice and make a lasting impact in the field?
Welcome to "The Vet'Ed Podcast". Join Steven Hermann, Kale Flaspohler and Lindo Zwane - industry experts and thought leaders, as they delve into tailored strategies and nurturing relationships to empower privately owned veterinary practices.
Tune in the first and third Wednesday of the month to gain invaluable insights, tips, and inspiration to thrive in your independent clinic. Together, let's build a community dedicated to advancing veterinary care. Subscribe now and embark on a journey towards lasting success in your practice.
Are you ready? What is it? Good morning. Good morning. Good afternoon, depending on when you're listening.
Speaker 1:Could be good evening. Anytime. Hey. Welcome to Better podcast. I'm Stephen Herman.
Speaker 1:I'm Cale Flaspuller. And our guest today, doctor Cliff Miller. Thank you for being on today.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it. Yeah. It's great to have you on. So let's go through some highlights here. 2,000 grad at the University of Missouri Veterinary School, which were MIZ.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. Absolutely. ZOU. Some good sports going on right now. It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:It's it's it's great good time to be a Tiger. I know. Started practicing o three.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You? By myself. On a whim. Yeah. I will.
Speaker 1:It was a lot
Speaker 2:of late night chicken scratches, thinking about it, planning it, moving back to my hometown. You know, I had worked on it mentally for a long time. Just didn't know if it was gonna come to fruition or not and Yeah. And decided to pull the trigger and I literally got the contractor and built the building with the notion that I for sure had one patient, that was my dog, and assumed that my parents would bring their animals to me. So I think, yeah, the the first rendition of the building was 4,800 square feet, and I just said let's do it.
Speaker 1:And you're due north of us here?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The Green Hills Veterinary Clinic.
Speaker 2:Yes, In Moberly. In Moberly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So Randolph County, just the edge of Boone and Randolph. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1:We're all in the same neighborhood here really.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. Nice. I mean, there's enough crossover. I do mixed animals, so I'm, you know, I'm traveling down this way sometimes when I'm mobile and Yeah. And there's some things that people will drive from Columbia because we've built a relationship for too.
Speaker 2:So it's yes. Definitely neighbors.
Speaker 1:It is. Yeah. We should be. You have four veterinarians now. Yep.
Speaker 1:So it's gone from that one pet to needing four veterinarians. How's that journey been?
Speaker 2:It's it's been really good growth. You know, like anything growing, I think there's growing pain sometimes. And and, you know, for, like, your audience, understanding when you're hiring another vet, do you hire another vet? Can you justify hiring this technician? And and those kinds of thoughts.
Speaker 2:There's been a lot of that over the years. But I built the building, I think, with the notion that it was probably a two to three person practice. We're we're tight with four, but we need four. So that's it's been really good growth. My actually, one of my former employees is in the boot heel now, and he just this last week was talking to me about how how long did it take you to add that vet, and he was trying to decide could he justify something and and so I've been lucky enough I think partly because of being close to Columbia.
Speaker 2:I've been able to attract veterinarians and new grads
Speaker 1:and Right.
Speaker 2:And maybe not had some of the struggles of of our neighbors out of state to to just find somebody. So we've been able to grow. When I've decided it's time, we've been able to do it.
Speaker 1:Well, as we get through the list, it's probably your active you're in with the MBMA. Right? I mean, that's a big part of it. You're active in the community. So it's not any location, but it's being active.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I I think I don't think my lifestyle would be complete without the extracurricular veterinary things I do, if you will. And, you know, MVMA, when I first I mean, I was a part of MVMA before I started the practice, but when I moved to Moberly, neighboring veterinarians said, hey, why don't you come to this meeting with me? Soon thereafter, I was involved in leadership in the local district and then blossomed and bloomed from there, guess.
Speaker 1:Real quick, everyone should know, but Missouri Veterinary Medical Association. Just wanna throw that out there. Just wanna know Mo VMA, right? It's not like not Minnesota or Michigan or Yeah. Missouri.
Speaker 1:So I think that's a big part that when people are like having trouble hiring, it's like, well, how active are you out there in the community? I mean, your your name's out there. You're you're doing things. Your people see that. It's it's it gives back.
Speaker 1:It's that law of attraction.
Speaker 2:Well, for sure. Yeah. Knowing that I think a clinic is a is a destination for new grads is probably something knowing that they've got, you know, the buzzword everybody uses is mentorship, but there's reality to that. It's not just mentoring on how to do a spay. It's, you know, how do you make decisions about things in practice?
Speaker 2:How do you how can you be a leader amongst your staff? I mean, there's lots of things to mentoring that I think is important too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're not it's not the skills teaching of the veterinary part itself, it's the life skills too that come along with me being a veterinarian and living in the world. All those things that come together.
Speaker 2:These gray hairs show that maybe I've had enough time to to learn how some of the mistakes to make or not make what have you.
Speaker 1:That's how knowledge happens for sure. So, yeah. No, that's great. So with the MDMA, you've been on the board. You're still on the board through the position of the legislative chairman, and we're excited to talk about that today.
Speaker 1:How'd get how'd you decide that legislative chairman was the
Speaker 2:That's a great question. Decided or got suckered in, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Not until.
Speaker 2:So it was I when I was just a board member as far as like a district representative, I think I found interest in that and got on the legislative committee, and that was probably o I would guess. And then within a year from that, the former chairman had some health reasons and needed to step down, and I think that's where sucker was written across my forehead or something. And I I said, yeah, do it. But and and I, you know, I joke about that, but honestly, I've I've truly enjoyed it. It's Good.
Speaker 2:I I think I see the value in it for me personally, but but kind of the whole give back to the profession. I'd to think it's making a difference in in how we do things in veterinary world and in the animals of Missouri and all the other things that we touch on as far as in legislative issues.
Speaker 1:Right. And people don't, I think, realize as much. We talk about it here, get it out there, Julie Braun, executive director said that 70% of their job is government stuff.
Speaker 2:A lot. Yes. 70% of I mean Advocacy, dealing with with not just legislation, but even rules making. Sometimes we'll get an emergency rule from the Department of Ag and we look at that and make sure that that's, you know, something that is good for our membership, good for the animals of Missouri, those kinds of things. So Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a big part of the NBA's role,
Speaker 1:I think. Well, we looked at the list of legislative things out there. I think it's like
Speaker 2:I actually pulled up before I came in. I just put my tracking list on my phone in case you guys would say, well, what about something? You know, there's Yeah. There's dozens of bills that have some mention, whether it's business owners, it may have nothing to do with technically veterinary medicine, but what about if we change the tax laws and all of a sudden now sales tax for example is mandated on services. Right.
Speaker 2:That's a big deal to a small business owner. Yes. It would be a
Speaker 1:The client too is coming in for a thousand dollar surgery. Thousand dollars could be another hundred bucks on it.
Speaker 2:Right. The perception even of, well, gosh dang, my fees just went up. Well, no. Mhmm. Our charges are the same.
Speaker 2:You paid more. Yeah. That didn't mean we got it. Right. So Right.
Speaker 2:So there there are bills that we track that, like I said, don't technically have to do with veterinary medicine, but but certainly affect veterinarians like those. There are those that have to do with food safety. So this morning, I was emailing a representative that asked me about industrial hemp and pet foods.
Speaker 1:K.
Speaker 2:So things like that that you might not think about Right. But they're still on our tracking list. And then the obvious are things that, you know, rabies laws or Mhmm. Or how we practice veterinary medicine one way or the other. Looking at looking at our practice act.
Speaker 2:You know, we've had over the years countless examples of someone wanting a piece of the pie, if you will. You know, if if they wanted to carve out this niche and say, well, non veterinarians should be able to do this. Right. Well, for one thing, is that really in the best interest of the animal? Is that in the best interest of the general public?
Speaker 2:You know, do you want a non trained person doing it or you want a trained professional? And then, obviously, from the standpoint of the NVMA, do you want we have to protect the members, so is it going to affect veterinarians and their ability to earn a living and stuff like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're looking forward to getting in at all that for sure. I'd be remiss though real quick if I didn't talk about family. Happily married. Yes.
Speaker 1:Three kids.
Speaker 2:Three boys. Yep. 18. 18, 15, and 12. So we're in the throes of going every which of directions.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You are. You're coaching baseball?
Speaker 2:I'm coaching my youngest son's baseball team in my whatever free time that may be.
Speaker 1:But Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I actually plan specifically on, you know, practice these nights, and that way I cut off appointments beforehand, and I know I'm getting away and stuff like that. So Yeah. I really enjoy that. Just, well, enjoy sports with the kids, but baseball is probably baseball and football are my passions then.
Speaker 1:Good. And you you got a cattle operation with your dad. Right. So you got that on top of that going on.
Speaker 2:I'm a bunch of mama cows right now. And yes, for some reason, they're need the most attention at work when we're also the busiest at work. So that's probably not real good formula, but that's that's something else I
Speaker 1:need do. Balance it all though. So No. I got a lot of great things going on in life there. Family first.
Speaker 1:Right? Mhmm. And you've got a great practice going on and and time for advocacy, which in the industry that you're in, some of the most important things to be is involved. Otherwise, someone else is gonna
Speaker 2:Yeah. Decisions for you. Absolutely. We we as that's why I think it's important for veterinarians, even if you're not as involved as me, is make sure you're you're aware and make sure you're, you know, a member, you support the organization because if we're not the ones helping make the decision, someone else will. And we need to be Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, we need to be the experts. We need to be there telling decision makers
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Why this is good or bad kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. Kiyadh, I cut you off earlier.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. No. I I liked where you're going and I guess just one of my questions from the outside looking in is so when these pieces of legislation are being considered by by folks in in Jeff City and things like that, are they calling you and asking you like, hey, what's the what's the veterinary perspective of
Speaker 2:this? Occasionally. Yeah. I mean, we would sure love that to be the go to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The the rule rather I I'd say it's the exception rather than the rule more often than not. What I will say is from our experiences when when I go to Jeff City or when we have Veterinary Day at the Capitol, for example, I do believe they all truly wanna hear from the expert, you know. As as a legislator, they're getting birds are chirping in every from every angle in both ears and and so there's a lot of information and and for them to make a really truly informed decision, I I think they do appreciate and wanna hear from us. Mhmm. And there are times, you know, I think it could be perceived as special interest if if it's the veterinarians talking about a veterinary issue, but yet we're the ones in the trenches.
Speaker 2:So occasionally, they'll reach out directly. I mean, we've got our legislative consultants, aka lobbyists, and they've got a good relationship with those folks. So so they'll certainly seek their input, and and they can then decide, do we refer that on to to the veterinarian, to us? Is it something we've talked about a hundred times and they already kinda know where we're at with it? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So a little bit of a mixed bag on whether they reach out to us or not. There's times that, like, local municipalities have made decisions and we sure wish or we find out later that we didn't have a veterinarian in the room for that discussion. And so that's one of the beauties I think of of state government is there has to be this open public forum and discussion and debate and so on. So that allows us to weigh in when there's when there's an maybe a controversy or what have you.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So your your your job there, it's not only looking at what's getting introduced by someone else, it's also introducing?
Speaker 2:Sure. Oh, yeah. I mean we don't do that regularly, but there are definitely times that we say, hey, here's a missing piece. Here's something that needs to be addressed. And what we have to grapple with and make decisions is the whole what we've we've always called opening the practice act.
Speaker 2:So Missouri chapter three forty is basically what governs our day to day lives.
Speaker 1:And then the dot, dot, dot, I'll put the number Three
Speaker 2:40 something.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And if we introduce legislation that would affect three forty, what we have to weigh is the fact that someone else that doesn't think like us could very well propose other changes too. So the old eleventh hour amendments kind of thing that that one word change and one you know, we've actually introduced things in the past that we we thought we almost had it across the finish line. And one little amendment or one sentence in that amendment, all of a sudden, we look at and say, this could have unintended consequences. This could this could actually make this matter worse if we allow it to move through, and and so we've we've had to pull the rug from under our own ourselves Yeah. If there's some language that just is not palatable to us.
Speaker 1:So is that get stuck in committee or it's actually been on the floor?
Speaker 2:Literally going To vote vote on the amendment, going to the floor
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And, you know, speaking and and that's been my challenge sometimes is speaking for the veterinary community. If I'm the one on the phone and the votes in ten minutes, you can't send out a mass email and get everyone's opinion kind of thing. So so usually, it's a little more time to prepare, a little more thought process. Everyone's getting buy in, but every once in a while, there's a alright. We have to know now kind of thing.
Speaker 1:And so yeah. The way the way the sausage is made. Right? Committee happens. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so can we talk about how
Speaker 2:that Sure.
Speaker 1:Process works
Speaker 2:a little So you can pre file bills. So so in a legislative session that starts January 1 or, you know, first business day thereafter type thing, pre files happen in the fall. So December 1 opens up or, you know, there's discussion even in the fall and then opens up December 1. So those bills we have knowledge about before we can discuss. Obviously, they can be introduced also during session, so they get assigned to committee.
Speaker 2:And and it's possible that a bill never gets assigned to committee. It may just die of its own weight that it never sees the light of day. Interestingly enough, in the house and the senate, those bills are assigned differently too. So in the house, they assign to a committee, and then the committee chair decides when to bring them forward. In the senate, they're brought forward in the order with which they were introduced.
Speaker 2:So senate bill one will get a hearing before senate bill two. K. And so so that's even a dynamic you have to kinda deal with and know, is this gonna happen? As a general rule, we've learned so bills get read, and then they get read a second time, and then then they get a committee hearing on or should get a committee hearing. Some don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And after approval through committee, then they go in for house vote or senate vote. If they pass that, then they go to the other chamber. And that's something a few years ago, we had one that when we really finally got it across the line in the senate, that was our big hurdle because in before it passed in the house, the year before, it got so late approval in the senate that it never got on the house floor, you know, session ended kind of thing. So that's that's the dynamics of what you deal with, like scheduling and and they have priorities, you know, they've got mandates on budget. They have to constitutionally, they must approve the budget.
Speaker 2:Okay?
Speaker 1:So Right.
Speaker 2:So sometimes all of a sudden for two weeks, that's the only thing talked about. So, I don't know if I've completely answered your question.
Speaker 1:No. I think it yeah. It's because I think a lot of people probably don't understand how those bills actually get to the floor. And then even on the floor, they come out of the house and make to the center or reverse. Right?
Speaker 1:The senate could vote on it and has to go to the house. And it may never They can amendments in them, the house does that. It's gotta go back to the senate because it wasn't what the senate Exactly right. Originally voted on. It's changed now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So and then they could I mean, it could literally do a circle and never Never get
Speaker 2:there just because there's enough Everything's in
Speaker 1:the governor's desk. Right? Exactly.
Speaker 2:And that's really ultimately, you know, to kind of finish that thought. Before something ever truly becomes law, it has to be fully agreed upon by both chambers
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:In the same language Mhmm. Before session ends and then go to the governor's desk. And then the governor can sign it. If the governor signs it, obviously, it's law. The governor can veto it.
Speaker 2:If the governor vetoes it, it actually can theoretically go back for for veto session that they have in late summer. That takes two thirds vote to override the governor's or, you know
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Signature or not. And so it's it's not an easy task to get things done, and and that's somewhat purposeful. It shouldn't be. You know, you you need to make sure and and that's something we look at a lot. What are unintended consequences?
Speaker 2:You know, if if this sounds like a good idea, great. What about x y and z that could potentially domino effect if this if this happens? So, you know, it is kinda necessary to have all those hurdles to make sure that there aren't consequences we don't want. Right.
Speaker 1:Right. No. It's a it's a big deal because there's always gonna be unintended consequences even afterwards. Right? And that's why legislation happens again to to To fix fix what just happened because you there's no way amongst the, you know, many veterinarians in the state, the many clients in the state, the many animals in the state that
Speaker 2:A %
Speaker 1:It's gonna agreement. Right. It's gonna be right for everybody.
Speaker 2:Good example number of years ago, and and really that topic now is is like ballot initiatives, you know, way back when the puppy mill bill, you know, that passed, but yet there were so many nuances and details that then the next couple legislative sessions had that had to be fine tuned. Yes. The general public wanted this in regards to limiting puppy mills, but yet, you know, there was language, for example, about unfettered access to water. Well, in some situations, a dog shouldn't have water twenty four seven, three 60 five. Okay?
Speaker 2:So we had to we had to kinda work on that. And and while this good premise of making sure everything had water made sense, the veterinarian could understand that there are times where we need to have an ability to alter that sometimes too.
Speaker 1:My dogs sleep in a kennel at night. Right. They don't have access So if
Speaker 2:you had x number of dogs and were technically commercial breeder, you could have gotten in trouble if you put them in that kennel without the water overnight. Yeah. Okay. And we we know that's not that's not real. That's not how it should be, but that's that's what we had to work on, those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's the voice of they they need the legislators need your voice though. Right. I've seen that in I've had some friends, I've had some legislators, you know, and called them up, and I asked them about in the the committee, and they go, that's in there?
Speaker 1:And I go, yeah. That's in there. Because there's
Speaker 2:Oh, They're bombarded with information.
Speaker 1:They cannot read all that. And they're relying on lobbyists and for, you know, legislative chairman for associations to inform them. Yep. And so the Missouri Veterinary Medical Association, that's it's a strong association with a strong voice. It's important.
Speaker 2:I I do think we are we're pretty blessed in Missouri to to a, have a a good voice in Jeff City. I think they genuinely trust and appreciate our opinion. I think we also are blessed to have good relationship with our veterinary licensing board. There are some states that aren't so lucky, and for whatever reason, those veterinarians are butting heads. Whereas, I think we tend to, hopefully look at, you know, the common goal, common good.
Speaker 2:The association understands that the board's role and job is to protect the public. It's not technically to protect veterinarians. Mhmm. But yet veterinarians with good ethics are the ones that are hopefully driving the voice and making sure what what it looks like to protect the public and protect those animals. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. Kale, what you got?
Speaker 3:Well, I guess You
Speaker 1:were itching over there. I've been talking the whole time.
Speaker 3:No. It's okay. So I I guess, you know, my my main thing that I wanna get out of these is is what what is it about your time in in this role that that you might be most proud of? And I'm sure there's a lot of impactful things that you've done over time, but is there anything that comes to this? Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a there's a few that jump to mind. Probably couple of them that people don't even realize that MVMA was involved in or that that it was an issue. The first one that pops in my head would be statute of limitations. When I started this gig with the legislative committee, the veterinary community was very I don't know. Under we were underserved or what's the right word?
Speaker 2:We were Underrepresented? We had the short end of the stick. K. We drew the short straw years ago when they did statute of limitations in that we could be sued for up to seven years after an incident. Human medicine was two years.
Speaker 2:And and that always just boggled my mind that that was ever even a thing. How did that how did that language ever happen? Yeah. But yet it did, and and there really wasn't a lot of motivation for legislators to put a lot of effort in it because it wasn't a huge issue. It was a huge issue for somebody that got sued, but for the general popular population, that wasn't a big thing.
Speaker 2:And and as you can imagine, the trial attorneys really didn't like the idea of shortening anything. So so they they had a pretty strong voice.
Speaker 1:By the hour or by the minute, actually.
Speaker 2:They had a pretty strong voice in Jeff City, and and, you know, if it came up, tended to kinda shove it aside. But, we were able to after years of work, we're able to get a bill passed that that put us on even playing field. Statute of limitations for a veterinarian is now also two years, just like in human rights. And I'll I'll not get my dates correct, but I have the the bill signed by when Griton signed it. So I remember that's whenever he was governor was when we got that accomplished.
Speaker 1:That's cool.
Speaker 2:So that was a big deal, and and I do think it affects veterinarians perhaps without them knowing it. You know, it it probably affects their their malpractice insurance rates. It for the small business owner, it sure should provide some peace of mind. Probably the other biggie that that technically wasn't, you know, the old bill marching up Capitol Hill. It wasn't exactly the traditional thing you think about legislatively, but comp compounding drug rules.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:After, again, years of work on that, for forever and a day prior, compounding drugs or compounded drugs could not be ordered in to a clinic under just the clinic name. So if we're ordering a bottle of cephalexin from the distributor, we don't have to say this cephalexin is for these patients. We just order a bottle and then we prescribe it out appropriately. For compounded drugs, that wasn't allowed. So every veterinarian, whether they want to admit it publicly or not, had their pet was prescribed umpteen hundred you know, had all the ailments in the world because we would have to order it under our pet's name so that then we could distribute to a different pet.
Speaker 2:And and while that happened, and and luckily seldom was at a legal red flag to somebody, it was putting us at risk, and it was a potential thing to get in trouble. And so we worked with not just the veterinary community, but we actually had to work with board of pharmacy too. So we had several players involved there, and we were able to get the compounding laws changed in Missouri. And then, of course, you have to work with those compounding pharmacies if they're out of state to make sure they they have those updated rules. But now we can order stock bottle.
Speaker 2:So if Vetmedin, for example, which is pimobendan, goes on back order like it did for several years, we now could get a bottle of pimobendan compounded, have it on our shelf, and then if fluffy came in congestive heart failure, we could prescribe a week's worth of that drug without having to wait a week on it being shipped from the compounding pharmacy. So it's a real game changer as far as making sure you're staying in compliance with the law, but but ultimately again helping the animal because we hopefully have something at our fingertips to use today and not wait for Mhmm. You know, ordering and delivery and all those things that we've what we had
Speaker 3:previously. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Those are two big wins. I know I could I could add to that, but, you know, you said the most proud. Those are probably the two that really hit home for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's I think I think it's phenomenal that you're able to to get those across the finish line and some you're passionate about and and to be able to to continue to work on those things. Is there is there anything else that, you know, maybe the NVMA does that that you feel like the general public may not know that they should be aware of?
Speaker 2:Great example. Well, a great question. There's there's several examples. I think if if you ask the average veterinarian just across the state, and they're probably gonna go to convention and talk about CE. And I'd say CE is a small part of that.
Speaker 2:Advocacy is a biggie. We, you know, in Jeff City, even dealing with rules, not just legislation, statewide rules and health regulations, public relations. So we've got an arm of the MVMA that that deals with public perception. So go back to the puppy mill thing, for example. You know, when that when that was a really hot topic and and and was on the ballot, the MVMA did a lot of work to help people understand, you know, what is a good breeder.
Speaker 2:And, you know, it is okay to breed dogs. It's here's we we wanna make sure that, you know, it's done ethically and and that they're cared for and those kinds of things. So public relations, we've got the equine committee that looks at all kinds of state regulations, equine health. We've got the Missouri Stocker Feeder Assurance Program. So that is a cattle health certification program started years ago, probably twenty, twenty five plus probably.
Speaker 2:Well, for sure twenty five plus because it was around when I was, you know, starting. So, and that's a way to say, here's this ear tag in this calf, and everybody in the sale barn knows that it's got this ear tag. That means some veterinarian has signed off that it's had this amount it's had these vaccines. It's been weaned. It's it's got this background of with these health status.
Speaker 2:So that's an arm of the MVMA that probably, you know, a good chunk of people wouldn't know about.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I probably feel like I'm rambling. There's a long list.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're
Speaker 2:good. Long list of things that the MVMA does. A big component of that, I think, is some of the legislative stuff that probably gets taken for granted somewhat.
Speaker 3:What's what's out there right now that would be would be interesting to
Speaker 1:people?
Speaker 2:A couple things that come to mind. I mentioned the email about the industrial hemp, you know, that's something that I basically had to say that we we flat out don't know. Let's not pass some legislation till we know what safety would be. Yeah. We we voiced some concerns about
Speaker 1:So that was in food, hemp?
Speaker 2:Well, industrial hemp would be allowed in animal feed. And the original version of it said, it would be allowed in food producing animals. Okay. Well, there's the concern of the animal, but also what about the end user? What about the human that's eating said animal?
Speaker 2:And it may be perfectly safe.
Speaker 1:What is industrial hemp?
Speaker 2:It's a byproduct of it's the it's the fiber source in CBD and Yeah. Leftover stuff.
Speaker 3:Well, I I was you know, there's wild hemp out there as well. I was curious if it had something to do with that.
Speaker 2:It's commercially commercially grown. Okay. And and it makes sense that it would be a fiber source and so on for for livestock, but you know, the the example I cited to one of the committee members that I talked to, one of the representatives is grain free diets. You know, grain free diets you see advertised all over the place for pet foods. Well, wasn't until grain free diets were really marketed and pushed and became popularized that we realized that's a higher incidence of dilated cardiomyopathies in animals that ate grain free diets.
Speaker 2:So something that we didn't know about was a health concern to that dog eating it, but it was already out there. And so, you know, the the worry would be hemp may be perfectly fine, but we don't have the data. So that's what we basically I had to tell them from the NVMA standpoint is we don't know yet. You know, this may be a great thing, but it could have really bad consequences that we don't understand yet. So we couldn't support that legislation.
Speaker 2:That's a that's a current one. Actually, has committee vote next week, so, we'll know about that soon. Another biggie is we call preemption bill. It's it's basically saying that local municipalities can't carve out little niches of what is and is not veterinary medicine. And it's not just veterinary medicine.
Speaker 2:That that bill actually includes lots of health related professions, you know, from dentistry to chiropractic to podiatry to so on. All these different subsections within state statute says that somebody like the city of Columbia, I'll say that because I'm we're we're sitting in it, can't say, well, veterinarians in Columbia can't, or non veterinarians in Columbia could spay a dog. Okay? They're Yeah. Believe it or not, I've we've seen that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:When I first started legislative committee years ago, there was a bill that said spaying and neutering wasn't veterinary medicine. Well, what is it? You know, that was kind of the argument is what hap so are you just gonna hold them down and spay it if you if you decide you wanna do it? Because you have to have drugs to do that. To have drugs, you have to have these licenses.
Speaker 2:So there were lots of problems with that bill, but the current one is basically saying that we don't want local municipalities to decide. It should be state, just like we talked about, you know, a robust conversation, debate, so on, get expert testimony, make it a statewide, and have the experts help them decide what it is.
Speaker 1:That local community on that, it's not like the the school board or the local school from what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:This would be that it would be a city council Yeah. Or a county commission or something would would help decide what rules are. And and for full disclosure, this this came about because the city of Saint Louis The DCLaw bait.
Speaker 1:DCLaw. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and we didn't want NVMA, myself, we don't wanna get into a DCLaw debate. You know, there will be veterinarians listening that that fully support Declaws and there will be those that think it's terrible and there's all the mix in between. But we don't believe a local municipality should making decisions on veterinary medicine. It should be the veterinary community. It should even even veterinarians in Saint Louis that do not like DCLOS still didn't want regulation to say that myself, my client can't have this discussion and decide what's best for that patient.
Speaker 2:And that so that's where we came why we're involved in this from the statewide standpoint.
Speaker 1:If I can segue on this here. Colorado. Mhmm. It's interesting you think about this. Even it's like putting the putting to the voters you get to vote on how veterinary care happens.
Speaker 1:It's kinda interesting. It's kinda same kinda thing. They go when the majority of the veterinary doctor community, the AVMA, everybody said no. Like, don't do this. But everyone over here voted for it.
Speaker 1:They voted for taking the right thing, access to veterinary care, right, for my or not veterinary, access to pet care. Shouldn't say veterinary care, it's access to pet care. So the people that voted think think they're voting for the right thing, but they how can
Speaker 2:you be educated enough to vote on that? Great example. Perfect example. And and if you look at polls and trends of those voters, it became very close. When that topic first came out in Colorado, it was an absolute landslide, no brainer.
Speaker 2:Everybody and their brother was gonna vote for increasing care, especially in shelter situations and so on. And and it was such the way it was written, if you didn't have a full understanding of the topic, it seemed like a no brainer. But a good example of what advocacy did is AVMA, the Colorado VMA, a laundry list of allied professions, you know, even the technicians association was like, yeah, this isn't a good idea. Mhmm. They got it to within a few percentage points of failing.
Speaker 1:So It's close.
Speaker 2:It was a very close vote. Mhmm. So that's, you know, part of what the associations do is public education and advocacy.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But to your point, without a full understanding of an issue, things can can go very differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Especially that one because it's I mean, where where do we vote on I mean, I wanna yeah. To say in in the medical human medical profession that we vote on someone to be a medical professional. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker 1:Essentially, same kind of thing to say, like, it's just create a whole new role for human medicine.
Speaker 2:Really put the cart before the horse too. We had no regulatory body. We didn't yet have parameters on what what was and wasn't allowed.
Speaker 1:You
Speaker 2:know, they kinda had this idea of a curriculum. Yeah. But it's it's forced a lot of things, you know, upon them to hurry up and make a decision. Like, what do you what do you even do about controlled drug laws? Right.
Speaker 2:Who's who's license is on the line if you do x, y, or z? Right. And that's part of this is, you know, looking at similar type issues within Missouri or other states is is somewhere someone is liable for something. Okay? So it ultimately comes on the veterinarian and and, you know, I don't know that I I wanna put my license at risk for untrained professional.
Speaker 1:No. You work too hard for that. Right. And it's your livelihood. Right.
Speaker 1:Yes. So no, think that's interesting. Well, talk about nationally, there's not talk about national bills. There much national going on? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Probably the real biggie still right now in DC is xylazine regulation.
Speaker 1:Okay. If Can I ask you, they're really regulating the profession, they're regulating the pharmacy side, the prescription side of it more The profession is more of the state level
Speaker 2:Yeah? Related to care. Well, yeah, think that's accurate. Probably the the day to day practice, the profession is on a state by state basis. Know, with distribution.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we get more involved with animal health regulation like animal movements, health certificates, interstate commerce as far as as those animals crossing state lines. Certainly, food producing animals, some of those health regulations, FDA, USDA drug regulations, that's that's, you know, covers all of us.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But but really most drugs that or most drugs. Most rules that control our day to day lives as far as how we practice, that's a state regulation rather than federal.
Speaker 1:K. So Xylazine at the federal level.
Speaker 2:So the biggie on the federal level is Xylazine. It's a it's a sedative drug we use in veterinary medicine every day, and has really gained momentum in street drugs as well. What we what we know is happening is it's being added or cut with fentanyl. It adds to the addictive component. It adds to the short lived high.
Speaker 2:You know, even probably year plus ago watched a sixty minute special on on tranq, and it was in some of the Caribbean Islands. And these poor people just they looked like a tranquilized horse. They were just standing there half falling over, half standing up, and spent their day like that. And as soon as they got off their high, they were looking for their next score with it. And so drug dealers are are putting Xylazine in, and unfortunately, a very, very small percentage potentially is coming through the veterinary community.
Speaker 1:K.
Speaker 2:Almost all of the drug is coming from overseas and in very different. It's not like people are veterinarians are dealing this or it's
Speaker 1:not There's not a bunch of diversion going on.
Speaker 2:Diversion is is a miniscule if any part
Speaker 1:You're gonna get in trouble.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're you're gonna lose your job, your business, everything. You could do that.
Speaker 2:The the what's what's at risk is they're talking about making this a controlled drug. And from the veterinarian's day to day lives standpoint, if xylazine became a controlled drug nationally, then all the manufacturers of Xylazine are being manufactured in a non controlled drug facility. So instantaneously when that happens, production ends until they ramp up a approved facility. Mhmm. And we're talking years to get that kind of approval.
Speaker 2:Yes. State by state has actually some of them have speaking of what NVMA has done, state by state has some of them have made emergency orders. Two years ago, Ohio, Pennsylvania, another Eastern state, governor signed emergency mandates making controlled drugs in those state. Well, that day one, MVMA, when we heard of that, wrote a letter to the governor, and Parsons was very understanding of of what agriculture looks what agriculture is like and and the fact that veterinarians are using this on in their day to day lives and and important for agriculture. And and so we we nip that in the bud early on, but from the national standpoint, what they're working on is trying to make the consequences of diversion the same as if it's a controlled drug, but yet not technically have to deal with some of the regulatory component.
Speaker 2:So if you if you are caught, if you are a bad player, you're going to get in trouble as if you were dealing, whatever, cocaine.
Speaker 1:Okay?
Speaker 2:Yes. But if you're if you're doing what you're supposed to do, your life shouldn't change much.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah. No. It makes sense because well, they any the problem is is that, hey, maybe it needs to be a control facility. Maybe.
Speaker 1:Let's just say maybe it does. Right? But you have a pathway to that. Right. They didn't have a pathway to it.
Speaker 1:Right. Exactly. They're just gonna
Speaker 2:Right. So so in the national language we've looked at, it it basically will turn it into. But to your point, they don't have to change things within production and facilities immediately to make that happen too.
Speaker 1:Is that a big challenge with government that it's like it's literally like when the bill gets signed, it's like bam. There's no like, how how many bills have a pathway to, like, adopt?
Speaker 2:This one's been a labor of love by a lot. AVMA has put a lot of effort into this. It's a rare bill that has a large number, not just a bill sponsor, has a large number of both Republicans and Democrats as cosponsors. It's good. And that's rare in DC.
Speaker 1:Very rare.
Speaker 2:Very rare. We're optimistic that it's gonna happen. Mhmm. It it sounds like it's got momentum. It's not really got pushed back.
Speaker 2:I I can't explain DC well enough to explain to you why that many people why it wouldn't just happen, but, you know, going back to our unintended consequences, I think there's a lot of lot of boxes being checked to make
Speaker 1:sure that it goes around. You know why it wouldn't happen. Amendments. Right. Someone slaps in something that has nothing to do with the bill and tries to sneak it through.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And that's what that's what the AVMA I mean Trying to avoid. Putting a lot of effort in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. To not get somebody to slap something in and try to sneak it through.
Speaker 2:This summer is the k. What they call legislative fly in in DC. I'm planning to go to that.
Speaker 1:There's a
Speaker 2:few of us from Doctor Stroup
Speaker 1:is going? Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a few of us from Missouri that will be there, and and so there'll be a that'll be a big topic. You know, lots of veterinarians from all around the country.
Speaker 1:Conventions there at the same time. Right? Right. Yeah. The ABMA convention, sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah. ABMA convention overlaps. Think the legislative day is the day that the convention starts,
Speaker 1:if
Speaker 2:I remember correctly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's gonna be it's great. Mhmm. It's good to be involved.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Have to be. So that what what more in Missouri? What's what else is going on that is important right now? Because there's a huge list, right? Like, I I think you said you're you even did some reviewing on the list.
Speaker 1:We looked at a list like, I don't know which one to talk about. Well, that's I really don't because What
Speaker 2:we do is and that might be worth commenting on what how we decide is I I get our long list from our lobbyists that, you know, they've got programs to look. Does this does this have this keyword? Does this have this keyword? Those kinds of things. So I get the long list.
Speaker 2:And then I read through them all and say, okay. Does this potentially affect us? Do we need to have an opinion? And then it goes before the committee. The committee forms an opinion.
Speaker 2:We actually have five categories that we've developed. One is actively support. So that means we're putting time, labor, love into this. One is support, meaning, yes, we like it, but we're not maybe gonna pound the pavement. We're not gonna spend time and money on neutral, which I'll come back to neutral if that's okay.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And then the inverse of those first two of of actively oppose and oppose.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Neutral is a
Speaker 1:So let let me book in this. You got actively support, actively oppose. You're doing things on both ends of that spectrum.
Speaker 2:Exactly right.
Speaker 1:Come one step left or right, however you wanna say it. Yeah. I'm not gonna and then yeah, the neutral like, if you're on a hill and you put a neutral, you're gonna slide backwards. Is that like what
Speaker 2:Neutral is is one that we we we could be doing several things. We simply are watching it. We don't know if we need to have an opinion, but it's something we think we need to watch. Go back to the amendment. You change these words, you change this line, all of a sudden we may love it and hate it.
Speaker 2:Or there have been times, to be real frank, we've had a neutral opinion maybe because of public perception, and and I'll make something up here, but if if there's the word veterinarian and dog and and if veterinarians oppose something and those that don't understand the topic hear that veterinarians don't like this idea, they're like, what the heck? You know, why wouldn't a veterinarian like this? But we know enough to say, we can't really support it or oppose it because of public perception. So sometimes to be, you know, fully transparent, we're working on something that we may not agree or we may agree with, but we don't want public perception to seem like veterinarians don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker 1:You mentioned Missouri three forty is what the veterinary space on. But you have to look beyond that. You're talking about some instances where it's not three forty, it's other parts that affect the veterinary industry.
Speaker 2:Right. And I won't get all my letters right, but just recently, we were looking at something within 340 that cited, I think, 196 or something like that. Sure. So then you go back into 196 and figure out, well, I'll tell you a good example. Actually, reciprocity, which is the ability to get a license in Missouri after you've been in a different state or vice versa.
Speaker 1:State reciprocity Yes.
Speaker 2:For
Speaker 1:licenses. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:It in March, it actually says that you have to have practiced in another state, you know, either this, this, or this, and one of them is for five years consecutive in good standing. K. And that's still in chapter three forty. But three ish years ago, a bill was passed in professional registration, which is a different number that changed reciprocity to one year across all professions on that are governed under professional registration. So one of the things we're looking at going back to do we proactively introduce something is do we need to clean up chapter three forty so that it actually says what is the law because professional registration already trumps it and says that it's only one year, not five.
Speaker 2:K. So, yes, there's always nuances of these other things that aren't technically under chapter three forty in our statute.
Speaker 1:And even you wanna talk about sales tax?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's I mean,
Speaker 1:you you mentioned that. What's going on there?
Speaker 2:Well so, I mean, right now, that's a big hot topic in in you know, they're looking at we've already passed in both chambers some capital gains changes, but talking about
Speaker 1:You got rid of capital gains?
Speaker 2:Well Or How they're what is and what's Okay. What gets capital gain taxes, what doesn't, stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But they're looking at changing Missouri income tax. So if Missouri income tax goes away, which was listed as a priority at the beginning of this legislative session
Speaker 1:How do you pay for it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You got it money's gotta come from somewhere. So then most states that don't have their own statewide income tax have much larger sales tax or property tax or or both. So if we increase sales tax almost invariably, that would increase or put sales tax on services. So if your hundred dollar veterinary bill was service based, now you're hundred and 8 or you're hundred and whatever.
Speaker 2:So from the client standpoint, that looks like, well, I'm spending more at the vet today. From the business owner standpoint, that's where the real, I think, rubber meets the road is the headache, the compliance, the the tax bill you're writing, the the just the tracking in that. And Right. Not only within your PIMS, your veterinary software, what you changed, but someone in that office still has to deal with figuring out what your tax bill is, and maybe it's now weekly, monthly versus quarterly or whatever. So it definitely could affect our small business owners.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. It's it's I've been wondering on what they're how are they how are they gonna pay for this if they get rid of income tax? And services is That's services is gotta be the biggest focus. That's what they would be looking at.
Speaker 2:And there are states that there are other states that veterinarians pay sales tax on their services. Mhmm. And so their tax bill is very significant compared to us that are just paying on product.
Speaker 1:They're probably paying monthly or maybe even weekly.
Speaker 2:Weekly would not surprise me on some bigger volume.
Speaker 1:You're paying quarterly right now probably on sales tax because it's not much. Yep. And then yeah. So sit people don't know sales tax works on the more you have in liability to the state on your sales tax, they're gonna make you pay weekly. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like in the grocery store that I used to run, we obviously had. Yeah. We sent that in all all the time. They they wanted that sales tax.
Speaker 2:Yep. And and if you don't meet those deadlines,
Speaker 1:know You'll find.
Speaker 2:That's con there's consequences.
Speaker 1:They'll find you. And if you don't meet it, they'll they'll take away your ability to sell products Right. Exactly. Or services maybe. Right.
Speaker 1:So which is interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And sorry to interrupt. No.
Speaker 1:Go ahead.
Speaker 2:In our when we renew our license there is a section to verify that we have that we're current owner sales tax.
Speaker 1:Right. Or you go to sell your business. If you sell a business, you gotta say, am I am I caught up in my they won't let you sell your business if the sales tax isn't paid. So yeah. They're gonna they're gonna find Right.
Speaker 1:Find you, not find. They're gonna find you too, but find you and find you, I guess. Right? Yeah. So, no, that's what what other nuances are you seeing out there that are, you know, outside?
Speaker 1:And like, so the three four the way they work, that's 340 dot, there's three numbers after it or, you know, that come out and in the bills you got, it's HB and SB, is the way they say the bills and Yes. Exactly. HB and That's bad. What about what's resolutions? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Those are generally topics. They're not necessarily changing a law. It's some we, the senate, and the house think this.
Speaker 1:Okay. So it's the
Speaker 2:So joint resolutions, I I mean, they do have legislator tied to them. That's probably a fallacy how I said that, but they they tend to be broader topics and not honing in on this one change of language in this bill or this this law. K.
Speaker 1:Do you see any sorry. Do you see anything else out there that's outside three forty that has a impact on the industry?
Speaker 2:That we're working with currently, besides the tax ones, that's probably the biggie. Here's where my list would have come in handy. Yeah. Lot of telemedicine things that are being monitored. Right now, most of the telemedicine things are not not really focused on veterinary medicine, but we're watching all of them.
Speaker 2:That that's a good example that we truly are neutral on those. We're just they're on my list. They're on our radar. We wanna make sure they don't all of a sudden change. And and the best example how that could change veterinary medicine is is state statute says we have to have a valid client patient relationship.
Speaker 2:We have to have met.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I have to have met you and your animal to be able to prescribe, diagnose, etcetera. Some of these telemedicine's that might in human medicine, that's not the case. And so we are all very comfortable saying we believe that needs to stay in veterinary medicine.
Speaker 1:Good reason for that. Yeah. We can talk.
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly right.
Speaker 1:The pet
Speaker 2:know, my
Speaker 1:The only way you get to speak about the pet is I've seen it.
Speaker 2:My wife was trying to show her provider her sore throat over the phone, you know, with a camera phone. That's just not reality in veterinary medicine. Okay? So so it's a valid established client patient relationship is crucial. And so telemedicine has a role in veterinary medicine, but we don't wanna circumvent that that relationship.
Speaker 2:Example, other states, Arkansas last year passed a an avenue in an emergency to establish a client patient relationship without the veterinarian k. In person. And they mandated that if they did these things on emergency basis, that they have to then see them in person within the next week or two weeks depending on if it's a companion animal or or food animal. Well, I think we all see the the the bump in the road there is that if the problem is solved Why are you gonna go see the veterinarian? Spend money next week to go to the veterinarian.
Speaker 1:So who's who's the onus on then if they don't do that? Is it the
Speaker 2:We don't know.
Speaker 1:The veterinarian or the pet owner?
Speaker 2:In Arkansas. Okay. What happens if the animal dies?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Well, okay. So you obviously can't examine it next week, but also is there are they potentially liable for how they treated that remotely?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So those are the kinds of things we also watch what's happening in other states mostly to see trends and maybe get ahead of it in our own state and what have you.
Speaker 1:Colorado was the testing ground for what they did. They found the state that would have the best chance of passing the mid level practitioner
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Law. So if I hear you right, that neutral's kinda like, maybe it doesn't have a whole lot of action going on, right, out there. We're watching it. It's not probably not gonna pass this session. We don't need to be Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Concerned about it. Okay. Okay. It may be something that is either controversial that we just need to sit on. It may be something that it changes all of a sudden, and we need to have an opinion.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Or it may be something that say this isn't really in our wheelhouse, but, we've been asked about it, for example.
Speaker 1:Seems like the veterinary medicine has been able to stay out of fray of the politics though. That That's the that's Nice.
Speaker 2:Goal. We would really like to be seen as a expert on an a topic. We would like to keep the public perception, I guess, that we're trustworthy people with our heads in the right place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There are there are dirty things involved in politics. It's just reality. And sometimes we do have to play the game as the association, but for the most part, we avoid that stuff. And I don't know if that's dumb luck, but, we usually don't get involved in those little spats or debates or what have you.
Speaker 1:Be curious. I mean, it's got the same percentage of people in the house and senate that have pets or even yeah. So they they already have an affinity for their veterinarian. You do. I mean, there's there's when you have an animal and you're a veterinarian, I always go back to, you know, as a kid, the veterinarian I had, and the veterinarian was the same veterinarian when I came back after school to run the business.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Then we moved to Columbia, I'm like, what do I do? And I'm in the veterinary business, right? But I'm like, what do I do now? There's there's this big affinity.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think I think that's part of what allows us to have a good relationship is there's a there's a real connection there. You know? The senate pro tem, you know, we've talked multiple times about her animals. You know, it's not just that we go in and say, hey, here's this bill and here's what I need you to think about it.
Speaker 2:It's we're chatting about, you know, her dog and her horses and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. They can affect that's what helps out. It can affect a legislator personally. That's actually You tell by the way things work, it's like, is it What's in it for me?
Speaker 1:And I can really see this as that. Dan Brown was Doctor Dan Brown was a his son is
Speaker 2:Son Justin is a senator.
Speaker 1:Is there a veterinarian in Yes. Legislator right now?
Speaker 2:Kent Hayden is Hayden. That's right. Kent that's a veterinarian. So we've got one veterinarian in the body.
Speaker 1:Where where is he at in his term?
Speaker 2:He was just reelected last year. I think he's got two left if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1:Okay. Sophomore term? Yes. Okay. So you got a little nicer office this year?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Moved up. You know how that works? No. I'm a sophomore.
Speaker 2:This is his because the house gets you get eight years. I think he's in his sixth year.
Speaker 1:Okay. So he's have one more Yeah. One more circle
Speaker 2:Yes. Trip around the
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Around it. Yeah. I think he I think that's right.
Speaker 1:So freshman reps, they they don't get the nice like, the floors go up, bigger offices, of course, senators have, you know Little bigger offices. Little bigger offices. Little better view. Yeah. It's a beautiful capital.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's absolutely I
Speaker 1:mean, just setting is You
Speaker 2:can go up in the top and
Speaker 1:That's cool.
Speaker 2:Kinda climb up in the bones of it and it's I mean Now that the
Speaker 1:tarp on and it's all Beautiful building. Redone and cleaned up. It's it's the people haven't been to the capital. It's worth a trip. And they should watch a legislative session.
Speaker 1:You can sit in the balcony, watch the senate, and you understand too like the way it's it's neat to see how the side of the capital they're on. I mean, left and the right, how that even this is simple thing, people go see it in action. Go go to senate committee. Yeah. Go see someone give testimony.
Speaker 2:I think I think it's every fourth grader gets to take the trip, but every adult ought to.
Speaker 1:Every yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because fourth graders, they might be it's like you probably do a couple trips. Right?
Speaker 1:Fourth, eighth, and like senior or something like just make them all make them go. Yep.
Speaker 3:So the question we always like to ask to wrap these up is.
Speaker 1:I lost track of time. Yeah. I know. I've been sitting here like eleven, ten. We'll I knew we'd get there.
Speaker 3:You're driving you're driving home and you're like, dang it. I wish I would have talked about that. Oh, yeah. So what what is that thing that that it's like, man, I wish we could've touched on that today.
Speaker 2:Probably going back to the benefit of MVMA. So so you'd you'd ask about what other you know, what are what are the pies do we have our fingers in? I even if you have no involvement, like, personally with organized veterinary medicine, there's not a veterinarian in the state, in my opinion, that shouldn't be involved in their state organization because they do so much for them. It's it might be behind the scenes. They might not fully see it, appreciate it.
Speaker 2:If you listen to this podcast, hopefully, you understand that there's a lot going on.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But that would be my if I could look every veterinarian in the eye, I would tell them they need it's it's a tiny investment with a huge return that that whether they realize or not could shape their day to day lives. Absolutely, it could affect how they practice veterinary medicine and how they earn a living.
Speaker 1:Well said.
Speaker 3:What a great way to wrap it up.
Speaker 1:The association is important. Absolutely. It's important because it it goes in the governing of our lives and our pets and everything. So I appreciate your time today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you in today, and so I gotta close this thing out that if you like the podcast, please like and subscribe. We're all over the place on every audio podcast and of course YouTube. So thanks for listening in today. I'm Steven Herman. Cale Flaspuller.
Speaker 1:Doctor Cliff Miller, thank you for your time today. Appreciate it. Till next time everybody.