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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
I want to start with a
behavior that feels a
little ridiculous when
you say it out loud, but
I bet all of us do this.
So here it is.
You open Netflix, scroll for
15 minutes, then maybe jump
over to Hulu, then Disney
Plus, then maybe HBO, but
somehow you end up rewatching
The Office or Parks and
Rec for the hundredth time.
And then a few weeks later,
you look at your credit
card bill and think, "Wait,
why am I paying for all
of these subscriptions?"
The entertainment industry
is not the only one
with a loyalty problem.
All of us in SAS know this.
Brands are no longer
competing only on product
quality or features.
They're competing on
habit, relevance, emotional
connection, personalization,
and the ability to
continuously remind customers
why they should stay.
Today's episode is one of
the most interesting examples
I've seen of a PMM stepping
directly into this challenge.
We're talking about how Disney
Plus approached customer
loyalty in a category where
consumers cancel subscriptions
constantly, attention sh-
can shift overnight, and
everyone is fighting for
recurring value perception.
And I could not think of
a better person to walk
us through this than
the PMM who built the
program, James Schulz.
James is currently at Netflix,
where he's thinking deeply
about customer experience and
the future of entertainment
in an increasingly
personalized world.
But before Netflix, he
led program strategy and
development for not one but
two major loyalty programs.
First, DirecTV Perks, one of
the first rewards programs in
the entertainment industry.
and he launched with the
campaign TV That Loves
You Back and gave away
over $100,000 in prizes.
And then most recently, he
led Disney Plus Perks, which
is still in its early days,
but it has already shaped
how streaming platforms
think about loyalty.
Oh, and here's a
really fun fact.
Outside of work, James is
an avid volleyball player
who competes across indoor,
grass, and beach formats.
He even played on an adult
traveling team across the
US and Canada, including a
match at the Richmond Olympic
Oval in British Columbia,
the same venue used during
the 2010 Winter Olympics.
James, it's amazing to
have you on the show.
Likewise.
Hi, Elle.
What an intro.
I think I found my
new LinkedIn bio.
I'm gonna have to
like copy and paste
all of
Do it.
Uh, I've also definitely
seen "Parks and Recs" over
100 times, one of my go-to
shows, so I totally feel that.
Uh, but it's so great to be
here and thanks for having me.
Definitely.
Yeah, I'm currently
rewatching Parks and
Rec right now, actually.
I'm in, uh, about
halfway through Season 2.
So good
It's so good.
Okay, let's jump right in.
So you're currently at
Netflix, and I do wanna
come back to that, but
today's case study is really
about your time at Disney.
So for the first segment of
our show, we're gonna jump
into the case study segment,
where we're talking all
about how you helped create
the first true customer
loyalty program really for
the whole entertainment/like
streaming industry.
So, and what's really
fascinating about your story
is that Disney had already
had, has one of the strongest
brands in the world, right?
Like massive
emotional affinity.
I feel like being like
a Disney person has been
a phrase that I've heard
nearly my entire life.
So I mean, we're talking
like generational fandom.
So I guess like even with
all of that, streaming
still created churn
behavior, which is just
what's so interesting here.
So take us back to the
moment when-- like think
back to your time at Disney.
What was happening with
Disney+ when you realized
like loyalty had become a much
bigger business conversation?
Yeah, definitely.
So one, we love
a Disney adult.
that's like key.
But we'll talk a little
bit more about some
of those audiences.
I think before jumping into
why loyalty as a business
objective was so important,
uh, I think it's important
to set the stage of just
the explosion of SVOD or
streaming serv- streaming
video on demand services
in general, and what that
landscape looked like.
Um, 'cause we have all heard
the term streaming wars, and
that really kinda changed
the trajectory of like how
we consume entertainment.
So when we're thinking about
these new business ventures
around SVOD services, there
was this major uncertainty
from investors that
required focus on growth,
growth, growth, right?
How many s- who can get
the most subscribers, um,
and who can be the first
to profitability, right?
We needed to prove out
the worth that this is an
actual sustainable business
venture for a lot of these
entertainment studios as well.
so when you think about like
monitoring customer churn or
like when you hear churn, it's
really those that are deciding
to cancel the service, albeit
many different reasons.
There's involuntary
churn, um, but primarily
it's voluntary churn.
You're making a decision
to say, "I wanna cancel
this service." and
that was always there.
That was always looked at
as a KPI, but I would say it
probably took a back seat.
As I mentioned earlier,
a lot of it was focused
around growth and growing
that, that share of pie, and
getting, uh, to profitability
as quickly as possible.
So I wanna note that,
again, these are general
industry tr- trends.
Um, not like isolating
or calling out Disney
specifically, but
it's something that we
monitor and we look at
across the landscape.
And again, it's not i-
isolated to Disney+ per se,
but like as growth slowed
and some of these higher
penetration markets like
the US or even after some of
these companies decided to
go global, growth started to
slow and we wanted to start
looking at, you know, how do
we retain our subscribers?
So you start thinking about
all of these macroeconomic
factors, that are impacting
consumers' wallets.
Uh, you're looking at
the many, many choices
of SVOD services now
with the introduction of
HBO Max and Hulu and I
mean, you name it, right?
A- and I feel like there's
so many direct-to-consumer
streaming services now.
you think about the content
troughs where you have a big
release and then maybe it
goes quiet for a few months,
and then another big release.
those are all factors
that, that play into
what we call churn.
Um, especially in like
regulations in countries,
which I think we'll talk
about a little bit later.
I'll, I'll double-click
into this, which is, um,
making it easy for people
to cancel subscriptions just
as easy as it is to sign up.
So there's essentially lower
friction for people to cancel.
so all of this, I would
say, kinda created this
perfect storm, in essence.
And when you're… previously
you think about cable or
satellite, where it was
traditionally how we consumed
entertainment, there were
high switching costs.
So you would think about, "Oh
my God, I have to call, I have
to schedule an appointment
with a technician to come out,
I have to pay installation
fees to get all my equipment
installed." You're getting
locked into a contract.
like real rip and
replace costs, right,
yep, you get the
point, right?
Yeah
have to ship your
old equipment back.
So when you're thinking
about this from a consumer
lens, there was this almost
like ingrained loyalty
because of the high sw-
switching cost, right?
You stayed with DirecTV
or you stayed with Dish
Network or whatever your
service provider was at the
time, Charter, because of
that high switching cost.
But now with SVOD services,
you know, we're making it
really easy for consumers
to sign up but also
cancel, so, and likely
without commitments.
so when you think about
that, like that low switching
cost kind of emphasizes the
ability for consumers to
churn and burn, and then
sign up when they want to.
So when you're thinking
about growth, while it's
still important to hit the
profitability, you know,
people were starting to
get hit with frequent price
increases with the SVOD
services as well, right?
Um, as people were cutting
the cord, they're starting
to replace those with
multiple SVOD subscription
services, and those
costs start adding up.
And as those… you have six
services, you start seeing
price increases across
all of them, it starts
to hit the wallet a bit.
consumers start doing
the math and adding it up
and saying, "Okay, well
what can I cut?" Right?
And sometimes entertainment's
one of the first to go.
So that really created
the moment where, again,
consumers are constantly
evaluating their wallets to
see if price, matches what
the value they're seeing
in their, in their service.
and if not, a cancellation
request is incoming.
Yeah.
And we see that in SaaS too,
um, even in B2B, it's an
easy, if there's not that,
especially if there's not
that high switching costs, if
a certain vendor is not, if
there's not perceived value,
then there's absolutely that
shift into a different vendor.
yeah, so it was kind
of the task at hand.
Like, how did you, you
mentioned you had this big,
um, these big trends that
you were seeing just on a
macro scale that were then
trickling down and influencing
your particular industry.
Like, what did you do once
you realized you were in
that, in that situation?
Yeah.
Before I dive into that, have
you heard of the leaky bucket?
Oh, yes.
Yeah, but let's like,
like talk through it.
Talk through it
for our listeners
Yeah.
So imagine trying to fill a
bucket with water, but it has
holes at the bottom, right?
You'll never be able to
fill that bucket unless
you plug the holes.
So in this metaphor, the
bucket's your business, the
water are your subscribers
or your customers, uh, and
the holes are churn, right?
So how do you, how do you
plug the leaky bucket?
and to your-- our earlier
point, even with the powerful
fandom of Disney, we still
experience subscriber churn,
and that was a problem
that needed to be solved.
So we knew we had the
loyal Disney fans, right?
The ones that pass it
on to their, their kids,
um, and it keeps going.
You have the people that go
to Disneyland ritually, right?
Um, but, but we also had those
casual fans that maybe only
resonated with maybe a few
titles that were on service
or a few of the franchises.
I'm a prime example.
I'm really only interested
in "Star Wars" content.
I didn't tell anyone
at Disney that.
and maybe some, maybe some
National Geographic content.
But these audiences are more
likely to churn in between
those content troughs that
I, uh, spoke to earlier.
Right.
Oh, I'm, I'll come back
when Mandalorian comes back.
Exactly.
And, you know, when you think
about these audiences, the
loyal and the casual fan,
there's opportunities in
both to improve retention.
So the question we asked
ourselves was: How can
we leverage loyalty and
harness the synergies of
the Walt Disney Company
as a retention tactic to
plug a few of the holes?
Mm-hmm.
We knew this wasn't gonna
solve everything, but even
just a small reduction in
churn had huge financial
benefits for the company.
I love that you thought about
like, okay, well what is the,
the big perceived value that
Disney offers as a brand,
not necessarily just the
product of Disney+, and then
leveraging that differentiator
and seeing how can we kind
of bring all this together.
So, okay, what did
this look like?
Like, you kind of, you had
these like big macro trends.
You then, you know, know
how you're gonna move
forward with, somehow
leveraging, the broader
value that Disney offers.
So walk me through, like,
the action that you took
and how you actually,
put this into play
So I would say the first
thing we wanted to do is
really identify the problem.
We talked a little
bit about it, right?
Around like, yes, there's
this churn problem, which was
essentially it was like, how
do we reduce subscriber churn?
We then looked at the data to
determine what is that leading
indicator for voluntary churn.
Why are people canceling?
you can probably give
a guess at what it was.
Um, I think, again, as
I alluded to earlier,
there's a lot of price
sensitivity, price value.
Um, so price was technically
something that really
stood out for us as we were
looking at, at the data.
So we said, "Okay, well,
we can't reduce the
subscription price."
Like that's-- Wall Street
will never allow that.
so how can we just infer that
there's this imbalance of
price to value perception, and
how can we increase that value
of our subscription to justify
the price that they're paying?
our hypothesis was that
by introducing subscriber
rewards as part of their
subscription, we could
reduce churn for the treated
population, or essentially
those that are actually
redeeming their rewards.
But also on the broader
landscape of like just the
subscriber base in general,
just knowing that we offer
this type of program, there
was this halo effect, um,
where not as, as impactful
as somebody redeeming a war-
redeeming a reward, but also
the ability to like know that
that's available to them.
Um, there's this halo
effect that we assumed
we would see as well.
So after that, we, we
conducted broad research.
So we looked at existing
Disney+ subscribers and
non-Disney+ subscribers,
because we also felt like
there may be, like, an
acquisition lens here as
well, to really understand
the types of rewards and
benefits that each of
these specific audiences
would like to see or, or
they would see value in.
and that step was really
imperative for the development
of the program strategy,
because we want to ensure
that we were building
something that consumers
actually wanted, and not
just building something
that we think they wanted.
so we wanted to make sure
everything we did was, was
backed by data and insights.
It was really interesting to
see the research, which it
pointed out, I mean, it's not
a game changer for folks that
are in the loyalty space.
They know people like free
access, uh, early access,
freebies, sweepstakes,
gamification elements.
So think about,
like, badge journeys.
So, "Hey, I complete
'The Mandalorian'
and I get a badge.
I unlock something." and
of course, discounts to
other Disney benefits, uh,
and business units like our
consumer products, all our,
you know, the Disney store or
our parks, uh, all of those
definitely rose to the top.
So, and then a few other
third-party partner rewards
also floated to the top.
So people like, like food
delivery services like Uber,
the likes of DoorDash, um,
they kind of go hand-in-hand
with entertainment.
You know, you're watching
something on the couch, you
know, maybe I want, like, a
buy one, get one free offer
on, or free delivery or
something like that on one
of the, uh, s- food delivery
subscription services.
so that was great news for
us because again, one of
the reasons loyalty programs
fail is, one, there's,
like, a lack of rewards.
Uh, two, the freshness
of rewards, things can
go stale very quickly.
And then three, cost, right?
Cost of procuring all
of these rewards tends
to get really expensive.
But we saw huge opportunity
for us by leveraging
the synergy of the other
Disney business units.
Uh, we could have a large
array of offers, keep them
fresh, and keep our costs low.
So again, taking a data-driven
approach, we tested a few of
those offers to validate our
hypothesis before deciding
to commit to a full loyalty
program, cause that would
be hard to walk back if we
decided to launch and didn't
have any indicators that
this was gonna be successful.
Right.
Absolutely.
So you took the time to really
study the data to figure out,
okay, well, what, why are
some of those subscribers
falling through the holes of
our, of our bucket, right?
And then after you dug into
that a little bit, then you
tried to figure out, okay,
now how do, can we leverage
the rest of what Disney has
to offer in a way that matches
the perceived value that
is, uh, motivating enough
to keep a subscriber to
stay, but then also doesn't
get stale after a while.
And so it feels like,
ooh, something new.
Ooh, something new.
Oh, it's different now.
Oh.
So it kind of keeps the
intrigue and interest,
um, even during times
when, speaking for
myself, The Mandalorian
may not be available.
Well, that was myself
b- before kids.
Now it's like, kidding me?
Disney has tremendous value.
Like,
all of it, yeah
oh, yeah, every single
pr- the, the entire
princess collection.
Yeah.
My, my niece, she's, um, about
to turn two and, you know,
my brother and sister-in-law
finally allowed them to start
watching, TV, and she has
gravitated to, to "Moana,"
and it's just, it's powerful
to see what, like, a brand
can do even for a kid at such
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, specifically for creating
some of that loyalty, product
marketers do have to lean into
brand because that, uh, you
can't not create a customer
loyalty program without the
support of the broader brand.
I just, in my opinion, those
have to go hand in hand.
so okay.
So let's talk about like
the execution side of this.
so you identified a
potential solution, and then
you hit some crossroads.
Now, it sounds like you
did some of this data
and, now you kind of
know what you wanna do.
Did you then, like you
built that out yourself?
Feel like, do we move faster?
Do we partner externally?
I guess like ta- walk
me through kind of
that moment and how you
decided to move forward.
Yeah.
I think it's pr- important
to call out that s- we
were, like, in an intere-
interesting space, given
that this was product
marketing led, but we knew
that Endstate was gonna
be a loyalty product.
and as you mentioned earlier,
like, I had the experience at
DirecTV of building a loyalty
product from scratch or, like,
they like to say zero to one.
and we knew at Disney+
that others were starting
to look at the landscape
and beginning to find
unique ways to drive value.
And to your point, I think
we had to pitch the idea
to senior leaders and
C-level execs at Disney.
But one of the decision
points was really to build
it or buy it, and there's
pros and cons of each, right?
There's building
it, it would take
And when-- Sorry, so to ju-
I don't, to interrupt you,
when you say building it,
you mean like the customer
loyalty program itself,
right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Sorry.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I guess the two options,
building it internally versus,
"Hey, we're gonna go and
source, a partner to leverage
like a loyalty SaaS product
and integrate." So those
were kind of our two options.
So the building or
buying it, of it.
and to go back to the building
part, right, we know that
we're always fighting for
internal resourcing, uh, so
it likely would take longer
to get put on the roadmap and
to build, p- ses- essentially
pulling engineering resourcing
away from maybe another
high priority project, not
making it on the roadmap
at all because it was such,
it was so marketing led,
it's hard to fit that into
a larger product roadmap.
or even if it did, it may
take us years to build
something because, We're
building a streaming product.
We're not building a
loyalty SaaS product.
Um, and there's also this
risk of tech debt, right?
Of like continuously having
to allocate resourcing to
improve that product that
we're building internally.
so
that tech debt is so real
too, especially in like
the broader SaaS world.
So I, I think that would
resonate a lot with
a lot of PMMs who are
kind of facing the like
build versus, versus buy
Buy, exactly.
Uh, there, there is an
upside though, right?
Of building something
because you can build
it the way you want it.
You can make it
uniquely Disney.
You could limit the
cost to essentially,
like a big one-time
capital expenditure cost.
Um, you-- of course,
you would have like the
ongoing maintenance of that
product, but you wouldn't
have this like subscription
model with a partner that
you're constantly, is hit-
hitting your bottom line.
And the buy approach, right?
That, that's another
option that we weighed.
The pros of it being kind of
the out-of-box solutions with
some level of customization,
so we could still make
it feel somewhat Disney.
It would help with speed
to market, which was
really important for us.
Um, we knew everyone else
in the landscape was likely
feeling the same pressures
we were, and likely exploring
very similar alternatives
to
Yeah.
You mentioned a lot of those,
like, macro trends, industry
trends, and that plays a
role in your strategy, right?
Like, there's a reason why
you you did that initial
work of seeing what was
happening and how that was
influencing your business.
It's probably influencing your
co- competitor's business too
Exactly.
Uh, and then when you're
thinking about like
resource, like we can't
say what's gonna take zero
resourcing away even if you
go with a, a buy solution.
But the scale compared to
somebody like allocating a
whole tiger team to build
a product versus I need
some engineers to help with
some level of integration
is pretty isolated.
and we would have no tech
debt since again, as I said,
stated earlier, partnering
with a loyalty SaaS product,
they're the subject matter
experts in the field.
They're continuously updating,
enhancing their products, and
we reap the benefits of that.
and the cons is kind
of the complexity of
integrating with a partner.
Um, I think you're in the
SaaS space, you know, it's,
it's never an easy of a
flip of a switch, sadly.
so th- that was something
that we, we kept front of
mind for us as we were making
this decision, and also again,
not being fully customizable
and just the ongoing cost.
So again, pros
and cons of each.
for me the decision
was pretty obvious.
I had my recommendation
to buy versus build.
again, for me it came down
to we're an SVOD service.
We're not building loyalty
solutions, or products
for loyalty solutions,
and that we should keep
our engineers focused on
the Disney+ experience and
allow loyalty SaaS providers
to do what they do best.
We needed the speed of market.
We wanted to be the first
mover in the space, and
ideally we wanted to tout
that we were the first in
the streaming landscape,
uh, to launch such an
initiative as loyalty.
So when we think about,
sharing this with
leadership, I feel like
it was very contentious.
a lot of leaders at Disney
wanted the build route.
there was a lot of ways we
were going with even just
different internal tools of
building those internally.
But, ultimately we aligned
that buy was, was the
best decision for the
spot we were at currently.
So we kicked off the RFP,
uh, request for proposal,
for those that don't know
the acronym, to a lot of
loyalty SaaS providers.
I think the list
was like 50 long.
and I ensured to the--
to ensure it was very
collaborative because it s-
was still product marketing
led, but I wanted to assemble
a tiger team, marketing,
data analytics, product
engineering, you name it,
to really sit in on those
conversations and watch
the demos so we could make
a unified decision on who
the best partner would be.
I didn't wanna do it in a
vacuum, and this is one of the
f- only times an initiative
this large was being led by
the marketing organization.
And, that created some
tension again at the top
between marketing and product
leadership of should this be
product led or marketing led.
Uh, and we ultimately landed
that it best fit letting
marketing continue to lead,
in close collaboration
with the rest of the teams
with, for integration.
I am so glad that it ended
up being product marketing
owning the project.
I mean, one, because
then you can come on
here and talk about it.
But, um, also because I have
always felt that a product
marketer's job when we, like,
really, like, oversimplify
it maybe, is to take context
outside w- from the market,
from our customers, from our
competitors, and then bring it
back in to drive strategy, and
that's really what this was.
It's a big strategic
initiative, and it… I'm
just, I think it's, uh,
spot on to have PMM own it.
Um, but I do think a
lot of product marketers
probably struggle with that.
Like, this kind of initiative,
at least in the SAS world,
would very often fall within,
like, there's a whole team
who's responsible for customer
marketing or customer loyalty.
and I'm curious, do you--
Was there, like, a customer
loyalty or customer marketing
team within Disney Plus,
or was it all just kind of
within product marketing?
It was all within
product marketing.
We had different parts of
the business, like lifecycle
marketing that would do,
you know, the outreach and the
emails and push notifications.
But there was, but there
wasn't this centralized
force or organization or
business unit, whatever you
wanna call it.
product marketers were
that team.
Um, so I had a team of
six people, a mix of p-
product managers and product
marketers that were assembled
to lead this initiative.
So
I love that.
It's the, the,
cross-functional team.
It's, it's good that everyone
kind of aligned on that.
okay.
Uh, so this was such a
strategic moment, for you
and for your career, and
especially now where I think
product marketers are, not
only are they fighting with
each other with this like, you
know, in the immer- world of
AI that we are all immersed
in, but like also fighting
with AI of, uh, you know,
build versus buy my product.
so let's not go down th-
that rabbit hole, but I
think this is such a timely
conversation around how to
retain your customers and to
meet that perception of value.
so let's turn this
into a playbook.
Let's say that, you know,
you're coaching me on,
I'm a totally different
industry, not streaming
entertainment business, but
I have this problem where
there are market dynamics
at play where I'm starting
to see churn within certain
segments of my business.
What do I do to try to
build up a retention
or a loyalty program?
Like, what's step one?
Yeah, I would say step one is
understanding your customer
cancellation behavior and
the value perception there.
Do your research, whether
it's partnering with your data
analytics team, your customer
service teams, customer
success, success teams,
or even doing out
customer support.
Yeah, exactly.
Or outside research.
Ideally, it would be a
combination of all three, so
you can get a comprehensive
360-degree view of customer
pain points, qualitative,
quantitative data to really
inform your problem statement
and form your hypothesis.
Yeah.
So like I could see myself
doing something like pulling
CRM data to try to figure
out if there was like a
reason for cancellation, um,
sourcing support tickets.
Like, okay, did s- did,
did out of all of these
particular customers
who canceled, had they
submitted support tickets?
Had they, you know, kind of
like what are all of these
possible data sources in
front of me that I can dig
into to better understand
what caused the cancellation?
And then even going as far as
like having just an interview
conversation with them.
Harder to do in the consumer
world, but in B2B it's a
bit easier to do, have those
kinds of conversations.
you'll be surprised how
many customers are actually
willing to give feedback.
Oh, good.
Oh, good.
Yeah, I would imagine it
would just be hard to have
a one-on-one with a consumer
And, uh, there's
different touchpoints.
I mean, there's, uh,
speaking from experience
again, we've, we've seen
calls, people calling into
customer support just to give
a recommendation of the, a
product feature enhancement
that then, that's then tracked
by customer support and
fed back to product
marketing and product.
You know, we have, uh, surveys
that go out, um, that are a
little bit more quantitative,
um, or focus groups.
You know what I mean?
People are so willing to,
to give feedback, which
I, I find is, um, very
astounding and super helpful
for product marketers.
I love that.
I love that.
I'm gonna rattle off a couple
other things that kind of, uh,
come to my mind when I think
about, like, studying, like,
reasons why consumers cancel,
especially, like, just, just
to kind of touch for my,
like, B2B SaaS marketers.
I think, uh, sourcing
sales call scri- scripts
too, transcripts, to
see, like, what's kind
of like happening there.
Maybe even, like,
before it gets to the
cancellation point.
So going back in history
and figuring, "Okay, how
did we get to this point?"
You know, they clearly were
a customer at one point,
but somehow we lost them.
So how did we get
from, from A to B?
So picking maybe, like, a
few marquee customers that
you lost and trying to follow
their entire customer journey.
Like, where, where was
it starting to fall off?
And any resources you have
at your disposal to kind
of guide you through that
historic journey I think would
be super valuable as well.
Okay.
So step one was to understand
why your customers are
canceling to begin with.
So what's next?
What's step two?
I would say double-click
into that data and start
identifying some of those
different customer loyalty
profiles or audiences.
I think you named it, like
looking at some of those
marquee folks can help create
like lookalikes, right?
and when you start thinking
about those, those ins-
insights from step one
and identifying those
audiences, you can do that
depending on your resourcing.
But at Disney, luckily, we
had some advanced modeling,
um, people that are way
smarter than me as it relates
to data, where you can start
seeing their behaviors,
and see how they engage
or lack thereof, uh, with
your product or service.
Uh, for us, you know, we
identified, again, the loyal
Disney fans who had really
high engagement on Disney+
and a lower propensity
to churn, meaning less
likelihood to churn, another
fancy way to say that.
and then the casual fans,
so that low to medium
engagement on Disney+ and a
higher propensity to churn.
And we found that, hey, the
latter is really gonna be
our target audience, but
still understood that the
loyal Disney fans would
be secondary to that, just
to continue fostering that
strong connection between
the cons- consumer and the
brand because they are our
big- biggest advocates.
So again, double-clicking
into, into the data and
start creating some of these
audiences or personas that
you can then say, "Okay,
these are the people, these
are our target audiences that
we're going after, and here's
how we can tackle that."
Yeah, so it's a
classic segmentation.
Like, okay, of all of our
subscribers, including
the ones we churn, This is
interesting because you're
taking, you're, you're
applying basically a, practice
or exercise of segmentation
that you would normally
apply to basically the
broader market, but instead
you're hyper-focusing it on
specifically your customers,
your paying customers, and
then doing the segmentation
to figure out, like, degrees
of loyalty and reasons and
value perceived behind each
of those so that as you're
building out, I'm guessing
where this is going, as
you're building out the
actual program itself, you
can prioritize which of those
segments are going to ha- see
the biggest return on that
Nail, nail on the head.
Yes, exactly.
So
I'm learning, I'm
learning, I'm gonna
be … I'm taking notes for
my next loyalty program.
I've never built one, so
um, okay, so then what's
step three after I do this,
like, mini segmentation
customer double-click on
customer data internally?
Yeah.
And this might be a
little easier on the
direct-to-consumer side, but
when you think about loyalty,
I think it's important to
think about it beyond just
the core product experience.
Um, you know, we like to think
around product enhancements to
improve loyalty and retention,
saying like, "Oh, this feature
is gonna create less friction,
therefore it's gonna generate
loyalty and retention."
And while that's true, we
knew that there was a price
value issue and consumers
wanted more value for the
price that they were paying.
And after the research, you
know, we started to test
specific offers to those
specific audiences, right?
Being able to segment
the casual fans had very
different wants and needs
than the Disney loyal fans.
So being able to, to
test and validate our
hypothesis with different
rewards, was, was super
helpful, insightful for us.
Uh, at the end of the day, our
hypothesis was validated, but
I do wanna be clear that, you
know, we still needed to make
sure that whatever we were
building was still heavily
attributed back to streaming.
So although we were giving
rewards that may be outside
Disney Plus, like, "Hey, we--
get free tickets to go to the
parks or win a sweepstakes
for a National Geographic
cruise," it was always
tied back to Disney Plus.
It was unlock this as
a subscriber, right?
We wanted the attribution
because at the end of the
day, we didn't want to
end up in the consumer's
mind of like, "Why is
Disney Plus offering this?
This is so odd." So there
has t- there had to be
this correlation back to
the Disney Plus service.
Um,
course.
Yeah.
for us.
Yeah, so I'm, again, like
I'm kind of translating.
I'm trying to strip out
like the context and like
translate it back to like
if I'm like in SAS that if
I'm digg- looking at this
particular customer segment
and I'm understanding like,
what is the perceived value?
Like let's take away
the monetary value for
a minute and like actual
business outcomes, like
what are they trying to get
out of using my product?
And take the spirit of that
and then try to understand
what else can I offer them
that can validate what
they're trying to get out
of my product or offering,
and now put that monetary
dollar amount back in.
Be like, "Okay, so it was
just this that you were
trying to get from being a
subscriber, and you like this.
Now I'm gonna give you all
these other things," and it
doesn't, you know, it offsets
my cost for XYZ reasons,
but you're still paying
the same amount but now,
but you have all of these
other opportunities that
just kind of validate the
reasons why you became a s-
subscriber in the first place.
That's kind of how
I'm imagining it.
Is that kind of the
right way to think
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And some interesting findings
that we saw, I just wanna like
loop back around to an example
is, you know, we had National
Geographic content on service.
We partnered with that team
for, it was like, I think
a seven-day cruise to the
Galapagos Islands, which
is like one really cool.
I wish I could, could've
won that sweepstakes,
right?
Um, and it was really
interesting to see that, one,
we had a really high level of
entries, but second to that,
we saw a huge increase in
National Geographic content
being watched on service.
So there's this, like, even
though we're doing-- we're
thinking beyond the core
product experience as far as
rewards, it was tying back
to business objectives of
higher engagement on platform,
which then ultimately is,
uh, reduces churn as well.
Right, right.
I love that.
So the, again, like I'm
gonna repeat what you
said that step three was,
like to think beyond the
core product experience.
And again, if I'm thinking
of like how this would
apply in like a, you know,
a SaaS world, maybe beyond
that product experience
doesn't necessarily come
from your partn- from your,
um, from your internal
company, but maybe it's a,
it's a business partner.
Um, so I'm even imagining
like if there are particular
industries or use cases
where you go to market with
a particular partner, maybe
there's ways that you can
add partners into the mix to
increase that perceived value.
Um, so I, I really like
that step of like, as you're
thinking about crafting
the actual loyalty program
itself to think beyond that
core product experience.
Okay.
So what's the next step here?
I would say the next step
is, this one is probably
the, the most crucial,
is just evaluating speed,
resources, and your
strategic differentiation.
So I'll keep this one short
because I know we just
spoke at length about this
already, but I do think
it's important to weigh all
your possible options since
no business is the same.
Does it make sense for you
to launch a loyalty program?
The answer's not always
yes.
But again, we're all
fighting for resourcing.
We're always up against the
clock to ship something,
and what are the trade-offs
for any decision you make?
Do you have a set date
that needs to be, it
needs to be launched by?
Um, is it driven by
leadership, right?
Have they set a date
that you need to meet?
That's all gonna
impact your decisions.
Um, is it aligning to a
larger brand moment or
is the desire, like what
Disney+ was, kind of be the
first mover in this space?
All of these are, are
different forces that are
kind of gonna help you make,
make the right decision.
Um, do you have the
resources internally to build
something and maintain it?
Um, do you have the
funds and the commitment
from leadership, right?
Is this a top-down alignment
or do you need to create
that top-down alignment?
Which is critical in
order to be successful.
Leadership needs
to be bought in.
Um, so again, all of
these questions need to be
answered, but I don't-- it,
it doesn't need to, you don't
need to do it in a silo.
Again, collaboration
across the organization
is so important.
One, you get buy-in, but most
importantly, number two, you
ensure that there aren't any
blind spots in your decision.
So you'll be surprised
about how many partners we
evaluated, and I was like, "Oh
yeah, this is the one." Like,
"Let's sign it tomorrow."
And, you know, it came down
to, like, and engineering
spoke up and was like, "We're
not gonna be able to integrate
with them." Like, "Th- this
would be impossible." Um,
and, like, having those
people in the room that are
looking at it from a different
lens was so critical.
And again, for us,
it came down to speed
to market, limited
resourcing, and competing
with company priorities.
So, um, yeah.
Again, that was
kind of all of that
and and that kind of
culminated into the decision.
But again, evaluating
speed, your resourcing,
and then how are you gonna
differentiate yourself,
um, with the competition?
How do you,
Yeah.
your program unique?
So I'm-- Those are the way
that I'm, um, imagining your
entire playbook built out.
Here's how I'm
thinking about it.
Let me know if this,
like, jives with you.
I'm thinking, like, your step
one was to just, like, get
immersed in the research,
then go, "Why are you
seeing churn," et cetera.
Step two was like, okay,
then that was that, like,
segmentation analysis of
your existing customers.
And then step three was
to think beyond the core
product experience as you're
trying to dream out, okay,
what does this loyalty
program actually look like?
I feel like your step
four is actually in
parallel to all of that.
It's like wra- it's all
of that wrapped up in,
like, the true go-to-market
strategy for this
particular loyalty program.
And it's, um… I would-- How
I would do this would be like
your step four is kind of
happening, uh, simultaneously
as you're doing all those
other three steps, right?
Like, and you're, you create
that tiger team as you talked
about doing at Disney, right?
Like, you create that tiger
team, and you're coming
together with the analysis
that you're doing and,
you know, you're having
checkpoints, you're doing
feedback loops, like, kind
of constantly as you're
doing some of those, like,
some of that analysis.
And especially for the
dreaming up, like your step
three, I could imagine that
being so valuable to have,
like, someone from product,
someone from customer life
cycle marketing, someone
from, you know, engineering.
Like, everyone who would
be part of bringing this
loyalty program to the world
could help, um, enhance
all of those, like your
step one through three.
What do you think of that?
Like, is that something that
you'd recommend that I do?
Yeah, definitely.
And again, I think this is
all kind of the buildup to
that moment, but I think
there's, like, another
step we're also missing
is, like, the execution,
right?
Um, so it's all great, right?
I
think-- Yeah, just
minor things, right?
I mean, you know, your s-
your program's only gonna
be as successful as your
execution, and I think
that's another important
step to, to consider.
Um, 'cause I know we
talked a lot about, like,
the building program and
I, uh, I did ask you how
to build it, to be fair.
But I think it would be amiss
for us not to talk about this,
like, step five essentially
is, like, execution.
Um, and I can't come up
with, like, a fancier
title for this step, which
you could probably do.
But I, I think that's
something that we noticed too
is you could have the best
strategy in the world, but
if you lack execution, that's
where something can fail.
So being really cognizant,
um, and have a plan in place,
you know, not only what's your
program strategy, but how do
you get p- how do you position
this in the marketplace?
How do you message it?
Um, and how do you kinda
keep the lights on after
your launch, right?
Um, so just some things
to, to think about, and
maybe that could be a
whole nother episode of,
you know, after you build
it, how do you market it?
Yeah.
We're gonna … We, we
should do a part two.
Okay, I want to ask you
a few questions before we
move on to the next segment.
So I would be remiss not
to not ask about this.
Um, so this, uh, program
that you built at
Disney+ was a pre-AI,
for the most part, initiative.
How do you think about
customer loyalty programs
and cus- managing customers'
expectations, like, in, in
the new world that we're
in today with AI just
kind of, like, bombarding
us on a daily basis?
every which way.
Uh, I love it though.
Um, I will say AI is really
enabling us to move faster
and personalize experiences
better than ever before.
And, um, I like to think
of like pre-AI loyalty
programs or experiences in
general like static images.
They're fixed, they're
one size fits all,
probably a bit passive.
Um, and then AI kind
of transforms it all.
Like, you're now in this
like live adaptive experience
where things are like
responding to your actions.
You're-- It's more
personalized, uh, and it's
constantly evolving b- and
like learning based off
of your input and output.
Um, it really just enables
us to build something
that's a little bit
more dynamic and custom.
So like my experience, like if
I could do this all over again
post-AI, I would love to have
something that's very tailored
to that individual person.
So Elle, you could log in
to Disney+ and get a whole
different experience than
if I logged in into Disney+,
um, the program or even
the experience in general.
And I don't know, it's
just truly remarkable
the, the, the, the pace
at which AI is helping
evolve product experiences.
And I know AI had a bad
rap for like a minute.
I think it still kind
thing?"
rap but, but it also has
a, like a very hopeful,
you
Exactly.
I would say
Yeah, I think if it's
done right, if it's done
right, um, and there's
guardrails in place, I
I
Guardrails for sure, yeah
see this consumer mental
model shift of starting to
see the value in, in AI, and
it's helping their everyday
life or just making things
more one-to-one, I would
Yeah.
Yeah.
If I'm thinking about it, like
just the way consumer behavior
is changing with AI, right?
And like now we are bringing
a lot more context to our
digital footprint when
we use some of these,
um, LLMs, for example.
So leveraging just that
behavior of consumers, and
how does that, how does
that influence the way
that they behave then with
your product in particular?
And how can you take that
context and create an
experience or a loyalty
program that is best
fit with that one-to-one
subscriber that you
Exactly.
Yeah.
You think about like
logging in, 'cause I
mean, right now it's we're
gonna offer this offer
to everyone that logs in.
It now could be we're
offering this pr- this,
uh, what is the saying?
Right offer to the right
person at the right time
is essentially where we
wanna get to, and I think
AI helps enable that.
Yeah.
We're con- that's been
a phrase that I've heard
as a product marketer
for a while now, but
I think it's something
that we're constantly
trying to improve on.
Um, so it's, yeah, it's kind
of exciting to see how it
can go with guardrails in
like in a non-creepy way, of
course.
Exactly.
Okay.
So you're at Netflix now.
So what lessons from this
playbook are you taking with
you in your role at Netflix?
Honestly, so many learnings.
Um, you know, as product
marketers, our primary
stakeholders are product
managers for the most part.
Um, so I think for me, it's
just really being able to
understand the why behind
something, like working
upstream to help shape and
drive product strategy, um,
based on consumer research
and audience analysis.
I think it's so important
to really have a seat at the
table upstream to, again,
drive that product strategy.
We aren't just
about go-to-market.
It-- Like, I think it's
so important to be part
of that early product
development, giving feedback
on designs, um, in product
copy, just ensuring that
we're building something
our consumers actually want.
Um, and it ma- at the end
of the day, like when we're
part of that upstream and
we understand the product in
its entirety, it makes it so
much easier for us as product
marketers to position it
later on and message that to,
to drive the, the adoption
and, and usage of that.
Uh, one other thing
I was thinking about
is really the, the…
what we talked around,
around like beyond the
core product experience.
Again, sometimes PMs are
just so focused on shipping
new features or enhancements
for the product that they're
working on, that sometimes
they don't really have a
pulse on the strategies
outside of the product.
For example, um, you
know, how can we as PMMs
drive value through other
important moments during a
customer lifecycle stage?
Um, for example, highlighting
features to drive adoption
and usage that may have
like lost priority.
Like maybe it was a feature
that was built two years ago.
We had a huge launch and
it's super valuable to
the company, but kind
of like lost priority.
So how does PMM step in
and say, "Hey, how can we
continue advancing usage
of this feature, build
awareness, drive adoption
that ul- ultimately
drives business outcomes?"
Um, again, we wanna highlight
all the great work that
our product teams do.
Um, and I don't know.
We just have to start
thinking about things
like at Netflix, right?
What is, what's
beyond content?
That's something that
I keep thinking about
here at Netflix.
We have such a strong
content slate, and if you
look at any advertisement
around Netflix, it's very
content focused, right?
It's "Stranger Things,"
it's "Wednesday," but there
is so much work that our
product teams do to make
our Netflix members have
such a delightful experience
when they're opening the
application and using it.
And I think it's, um, a big
opportunity for us to see how
do we start marrying product
innovation with content
narratives, um, whether it's
through advertisements or
even just some of our, our
messaging and positioning
within the product, um, and
o- and off service marketing.
So just some things I'm
thinking about is like Again,
to recap, one, sitting within
like a product management
space with loyalty programs,
um, I think helps me a
lot just understanding the
ins and outs of what I'm
gonna market eventually.
And then two, just
ensuring that I'm thinking
holistically beyond just
the product experience.
Yeah.
That's so powerful the way
that you described that.
Um, and it reminds me of
something that I heard, I
can't remember who I got
it from, some other product
marketing influencer voice
would talk about how product
marketers are responsible
for deeply understanding
what it is about your product
that is truly remarkable
to your target audience.
And it sounds like that's
some of the work that
you're doing, like beyond
just content, as you said.
Like what about maybe it's
a feature, maybe it's an ex-
a certain product experience
that not, isn't necessarily
consuming content, but maybe
it's something else that's
just a delightful feature
that kind of like captures
the, you know, the loyalty,
the retention, et cetera.
So I really appreciate
that thought.
Yeah.
Okay, my last question for
you on this topic, James.
What's one last piece
of advice you have for a
PMM who is in the midst
of building a con- a
customer loyalty program?
Yeah, this is a good question.
Um, I think I touched on
it lightly before, but
I would say don't fall
for the fallacy of build
it and they will come.
Do the upfront work of
identifying the problem
through research, data
analysis, come up with a
hypothesis, validate that,
that hypothesis through
testing, and then develop
a loyalty program strategy.
Just ensuring that it
doesn't feel transactional
but emotional.
It's tied to the brand.
That's, that's really
the sweet spot.
And again, as I stated
earlier, you may find that
loyalty is probably not gonna
move the needle for you,
and it may be it's okay to
say, "Hey, this isn't gonna
move the needle and maybe
this isn't our best option."
Uh, but you have to have
that discipline to look at
the data and say, "Okay,
this is gonna work," or, "We
wanna continue testing before
we're agreeing to something."
Again, this is just to
really ensure that what
you're building is what your
customers say that they want.
Um, again, and the work
doesn't stop when you launch.
The likelihood of you getting
everything within your,
your first launch, like
the wish list essentially
for MVP, is, is not likely.
So you're gonna have to
constantly evaluate results,
improve where you can based on
insights, customer feedback,
all of that fun stuff.
But yeah, just, just be,
be, be very, uh, aware
of the build it and they
will come fallacy and just
make sure that there's
data that's backing up the
justification to move forward.
Yeah.
I, I love that.
And something that as you
were talking, what made
me think of is that, like,
sometimes reward programs
don't have to be so, like,
transactional feeling,
especially with, you know,
the, I'll say the hopefulness
that we have around with AI.
It can feel more like
relational intelligence,
and remembering that
there's a person behind the
screen who is interacting
with your product.
And to, the closer you can get
to the one-on-one feeling is
probably gonna feel a little
bit more… The customer
will feel more understood
and, you know, eager,
willing to stick around.
Agreed.
Yeah, and just to add to
that, I think you hit on
an important point of this
emotional relationship, right?
I think what we launched when
I was there, um, was very MVP.
Like, this was like
bare bones, let's
get something out.
The ideas, um, for the
future of this program
are out of this world.
Um, it'll take some time
to get there, but I know
that the team that is
now leading it, um, I,
I'm very close with them.
They're doing a fantastic
job of, of, uh, of getting
it to, to that vision
that we had early on.
Um, so y- I can't
wait for everyone to
follow
should bring him on.
We should bring him on
and have like a part two.
We can do like a, we can do
like a three-person interview.
You can kind of like recap
the like the early days,
the vision, and then they
can kind of chime in.
Okay, I love it.
We're gonna do it.
All right, so now
it's time for the next
segment of our show.
This is the
messaging critique.
This is where, as product
marketing experts, we get to
analyze real-world messaging.
And the fun part is, James,
as the guest of my show, you
get to pick the company that
we are critiquing today.
Really quickly, I'm gonna run
through some ground rules.
You're gonna pick a company,
or you have picked a company
that, um, you are the target
audience or you know the
target audience really well.
It kind of makes it more
fair to do a critique.
And you're gonna tell
me what stood out to you
about the messaging, um,
something you wish the
product marketer would've
considered differently,
and then we'll iterate a
little bit on how they can
take it to the next level.
So without… Yeah,
without further ado, please
share the company that
we are critiquing today
So I'm gonna do a full 180
on you because, um, I don't
know if it was fair for me
to critique another, like,
entertainment provider
or in the SVOD space.
So I'm gonna do, uh,
BODYARMOR, the sports drink.
I know it.
I've had it.
Tell me more.
Tell me more.
Like, a little bit, like,
yeah, just for our listeners.
Get the listeners up to speed
Yeah.
So I don't-- I wanna
do them justice.
I'm, I'm pulling from their
website, um, quickly on just
like what they are because
I think a lot of people will
conflate… I think there's
like Bodyarmor phone cases.
There's also
true.
Yes, there's a ton of
different products out
there with similar names.
Yeah
So, uh, it was founded
by Mike Repole in 2011,
and he went out to
challenge the status quo.
He was tired of outdated
sports drinks and artificial
ingredients, so he created
Bodyarmor with a clear
mission to deliver a
better-for-you sports drink
made with no artificial
dyes, flavors, or sweeteners,
packed with potassium-rich
electrolytes, antioxidants,
and coconut water.
Um, and the, his ethos
is choose better.
And in 2021, Coca-Cola fully
acquired Bodyarmor under
the ONE Powerhouse hydration
portfolio alongside Powerade.
So, they have quite a few
products, uh, but I wanted
to hone in on Bodyarmor
Lyte, uh, which is the
coconut water-based, um,
healthy sports drink with
the no artificial dyes
and only 25 calories.
Um, I'm a big calorie counter.
Yeah.
so
walk us through Yelp.
Like, what's, what
yeah
really well?
Um, this one was hard
for me, honestly.
Yeah.
It's, um,
is hard, yeah
uh, if you were to visit
their site, they tend to
have individual pages for
each of their product.
Their hero page is talking
about one of their newer
releases, which is like, I
would say probably combating,
um, or, or competing with
that of like Celsius.
Um, but if you were to
like look at just their
larger positioning, um, or
messaging, they're leaning
heavily into the ethos
that I mentioned previously
of Choose
better.
Yeah, exactly,
rewrite your routine.
Um, and for me, I
mean, I liked that.
I assume they're trying
to convey of like, "Hey,
switch up your routine.
Choose a better sports drink."
I think healthier is implied
here, but I don't know.
It was kinda hard for me.
Like I know their target
audience is, you know,
probably athletes, um, you
know, people that want a
healthier option, um, like
myself,
where
probably people who are like
somewhat health conscious,
who exercise on a regular
basis, who care about having,
you know, a drink with
electrolytes, um, but maybe
who get frustrated by having
things like artificial dyes.
You know?
I mean, I'm constantly looking
at labels to see ingredients
and things like artificial or
added sweeteners and stuff.
I'm like, "Nah," it's, it's
usually a pass for me, but
I still want a lot of that.
You
know?
Or maybe like, yeah
exactly, like an alternative
to coconut water, right?
Like could be, um, something,
like maybe a similar, like
an adjacent audience, right?
That's kind of
what I'm thinking.
Okay, so what they're doing
really well maybe is like
starting to capture some
of that with that, you
know, um, it seems a little
bit like aspirational a
bit, like choose better,
like hopeful, encouraging.
Um, so like what w- as you
kind of think through that,
on the flip side of that
then, what do you think, what
do you wish the PMM would've
considered differently?
I don't even know if
they have PMMs, but let's
assume that they do.
They probably have just
like a brand team or
like an agency, but
That, that sounds
like a brand slogan.
Um,
does, yeah
uh, I guess a little
quick backstory.
So I came across this
at Costco last year, um,
and like it's part
of our shopping list.
Yeah.
It's part of our
shopping list.
I'm very sad when
it's not there.
Um, somebody probably
forgot to place the order.
Um, but it's-- Again,
it's-- For the messaging
for me, it falls a bit flat.
Uh, like as an avid
consumer, I… If I saw
this, like I just always
think about a billboard.
Like you have like
three seconds to capture
an audience, right?
Um, if you're like driving
down a freeway or something.
So if I saw this in a picture
of a billboard, I always
think of it in that way.
I would just think it
was another sports drink.
If it was that and it said,
"Choose better, rewrite
your routine," for me, I
would be like, "Oh, well,
why would I go with this?
I'll just drink Powerade,"
Yeah.
or, or some other
sports drink.
Maybe not quite
motivating enough.
Like, 'cause it
seems like, yeah, yeah,
'cause it seems like the
choose better, rewrite your
routine, it's definitely
punchy, but it's almost
like if there's… It's kind
of missing the, like, why,
you know?
Like, it's not, um… And
maybe it's there in some
context, and like, no, we
had, just haven't seen it.
But sorry, I'll let you
kind of keep talking
No, good.
I, and I do know they like
list a lot of the ingredients,
um, on the bottle itself
where it's like no artificial
dyes, but it's, it's hard
for somebody to see, right?
Like you have to-- There's
some intent there that
you're curious to see what
this is, but you need to
first create that awareness
of like what this is to
even pick up the bottle.
And, um, like for me, I
think choose better, like
to your point, like what
am I choosing better?
I'm not sure.
And, you know, how am I gonna
rewrite r- m- my, rewrite
my routine by doing this?
For me, it's like it's
more fulfilling a need
at the moment 'cause I
need to quench my thirst.
So I think the routine is,
is, uh, is a bit of a stretch.
I don't know.
For
Yeah.
Yeah.
I bet they're-- I wonder
if maybe they're kind of
tr- getting at or hinting
to people who have their,
like, their go-to, right?
'Cause BODYARMOR, because
they came a little bit
later to the sports drink
conversation, they, um,
they're probably trying to
wedge themselves into an
audience that has their, like,
go-to drink that they buy.
Like, you now have BODYARMOR
on your standard, you
know, Costco purchase list.
Other people probably have,
like, whether it's Powerade
or, you know, Gatorade or,
you know, whatever it is.
Um, I wonder if there's,
like, that's kind of what
they're hinting at, but theirs
is the, like, healthier,
quote-unquote, alternative.
okay, so what do you think
they could do to take
it to the next level?
What would you
like to see them?
How would you-- how could
you imagine that they,
like, really take off with
their differentiation?
Yeah.
So I'm, like, not a copywriter
by trade, but I think it could
be something more compelling
around, you know, pure
hydration without the fake
stuff you can't pronounce.
Like, kind of like being a
little cheeky about it, like
poke fun at the competition.
Um, or even like, I think
the coconut water is
a huge differentiator.
I didn't even know
that, and I've like,
I've consumed a
lot of body armor.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's coconut
water, so it's like, you
know, coconut, coconut
water sports drink, no
fake stuff, 25 calories.
Like, for me, that
would catch my eye.
One, I'm like, I'm really
not a fan of coconut water,
but I know how helpful
it is for hydration.
It just, for me, I can't do
the taste, but to know that
something is like mango-based
and like coconut water with
25 calories, like for me, that
would really draw my attention
and make me wanna learn more.
Um, Yeah
I feel like there needs to
be more emphasis on that
I really--
Yeah, I could totally picture
them, like, diving deep into
the lake, um, just being
a little bit more bold and
they're-- and aggressive
with, like, focusing on, like,
what you said, the fake stuff
that you can't pronounce.
Yep.
That's a b- for-- That
is something that I do.
It's huge.
I can't tell you how many
times I'm at the grocery
store, and I look at the
back of a label, and if
it's got something weird
that I can't pronounce,
unless it's something
that is a must-have in my
household, I don't buy it.
I put it back.
So if that's, if that
is a characteristic, a
characterical behavior
of their target audience,
that could be something
that they lean into.
You know what I'm realizing?
In your answer and your
suggestion for how they can
take it to the next level,
it really mirrors w- some
of the activity that you did
as you were building out a
customer loyalty program, is
to dig in and to look deeper
on the value that-- like,
to look at your existing
customer base and understand
the perceived value, do some
of that research, like, build
out some of those, some of
that segmentation of your
existing customers, and then,
y- you know, try to take it
to the next level in that way.
And maybe, maybe they have
done some of that, but I was
just kind of drawing out the
parallels that I was seeing
between, like, your style in
particular that I think is,
um, you know, very helpful.
Clearly a successful one.
Full circle moment.
Yes, totally.
Okay.
Well, shout-out to
Bodyarmor and any Bodyarmor
marketers out there.
You've definitely
got some fans.
I'm a big-- I've definitely
consumed a lot of Bodyarmor.
So, all right.
So James, there's one thing
that I like to make space
for on this podcast, and that
is a moment of gratitude.
We truly do not get
anywhere in product
marketer-- marketing in
general, honestly, without
learning from each other.
So I'm so grateful that you
have taken the generosity and
time to come on and share our,
your expertise on the show.
So thank you so much.
Um, and I would love to
turn it around to you and
hear some shout-outs for
some PMMs who have brought
you to this moment and
contributed to the awesome
PMM that you are today.
Thank you, one, for having me.
So, so thankful.
Um, this is gonna be an Oscar
moment for me 'cause you're
gonna start playing the
music, but, um, I'm gonna c-
you know, as I'm reading off
my note
card.
Um, but there's been so many
amazing product marketers,
um, I've worked with.
You know, I started off
my career at AT&T in 2012.
Um, Kyle Riley Johnston, um,
he was the leader at Disney+
for global product marketing.
Bright servant leader.
Um, he's one that really
kind of truly kicked off my
product marketing career at
AT&T, so major kudos to him.
Um, my fellow and past
PMMs, especially the ones
at Disney+, um, whether
you're on my team or a
colleague or a leader,
uh, the job is never easy.
We're always like-- We have
seen such talent on the
team, uh, and it's not easy
whenever you're establishing
a new function or you're
having to constantly prove
your value, um, and a battle
for a seat at the table.
Um, so just everyone
that's a product marketer,
I give you major kudos
and hats off to you.
Uh, and finally, um,
I wanna make sure I, I
mention my folks at Netflix.
Um, I've been here for,
uh, it'll be a year in
July, but the talent here
is out of this world.
Um, and I'm just grateful
every day to work alongside
such stunning colleagues.
So thanks again for having me.
Yeah, I love it.
There's nothing like the, um,
relationships that you make
when you're, like, just in
the thick of it with something
just really hard to do in
your professional l- life,
and just having, you know,
those homies that that get you
through it, and then obviously
teach you along the way, so.
Okay, this is my last
question for you.
Where else is it best to
access your expertise?
Can we just find
you on LinkedIn?
Yes, LinkedIn is
probably the best spot.
I'm pretty active on there,
at least when I try to
be when my life,
life isn't crazy.
Yeah.
Um, so send me a, a
request and we can connect.
Awesome.
Again, thank you
so much, James.
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you liked this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful if
you would leave us a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey